of sin of God and of his Law that can so judge of such an horrid evil as Sin Scripture fully condemns this Doctrine It tells me that the wages of sin all sin without any difference is death even that death which is opposite to eternal life Rom. 6. 23. that He that shall break the least of Gods commands and teach men so though peradventure he do it ignorantly and so according to your opinion it is a venial sin shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven that is he shall have no portion there It tells me Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the Book of the Law to do them Gal. 3. 10. And he speaks of that curse which Christ underwent for us and redeemed us from It tells me that for every idle word that men shall speak they shall give an account thereof in the Day of Iudgment and by such words if not repented of they shall be condemned Mat. 12. 36 37. So now your foundation and one of the Pillars of Purgatory is gone And as for your other fansie that Christ did not satisfie for our temporal punishments I pray you tell me did not Christ suffer temporal afflictions Pop. Yes doubtless the whole Gospel is full of such sufferings Prot. Surely all that Christ suffered he suffered for us both in our stead and for our good He was cut off not for himself but for our sins Dan. 9. 25. It was for our sakes that he bare that temporal part of the curse to be hanged on a Tree and all that pain and shame was but a temporal punishment Gal. 3. 13. I read Isa. 53. that Christ bore our griefs and carried our sorrows v. 4. which was not only accomplished in this that he bare the guilt of our sins as S. Peter expounds it 1 Pet. 2. 24. but also in this that he delivered them from sicknesses and temporal afflictions as St. Matthew expounds it Mat. 8. 16 17. and both these consist well together since Christ removed both sin the cause and affliction the effect of it Pop. If Christ had satisfied for our temporal punishments then Believers should be free from all pains and loss and death which it is apparent they are not and therefore notwithstanding the fulness of Christs satisfaction they may be liable to pains in Purgatory as well as in this life Prot. To this I answer three things First Your inference from the pains of this life to the torments of Purgatory is weak and false I may and must believe that God afflicts his people here because Scripture and Experience put it out of doubt But that Cod will punish his people in Purgatory after this life no Scripture affirms You that can multiply your instances of the sufferings of Believers in this life and can tell us of Adam and David and Solomon and many others have not to this day been able though often urged to produce one instance of the sufferings of any one Believer after this life which one consideration is sufficient to overthrow this Argument in the judgement of any indifferent man Secondly There is not the same reason for the sufferings of believers here and those which you suppose in Purgatory nor are they of the same nature The present sufferings of Believers are necessary 1 Pet. 1. 6. You are in heaviness if need be both for Believers themselves to subdue the Flesh which in this life is potent and altogether needs such a curb By this shall the iniquity of Iacob be purged Isa. 27. 9. and to prevent their eternal damnation 1 Cor. 11. 32. as also for the terror and caution of other offenders So that albeit Christ hath fully paid the debt yet it is upon other accounts convenient that they should smart and suffer here But there is no such necessity nor use of Purgatory sufferings neither for Believers themselves since there is no mortification of corruption after this life no temptations to sin there no improvement of grace no fear of eternal damnation nor for example and warning to others For their fellow-sufferers in Purgatory you do not pretend they are at all edified by their sufferings and men here they neither see nor know any thing of these pains nor hath God revealed any thing concerning them but when God makes any examples to others he sets them in the view of others or at least acquaints them fully therewith as he did with Hell torments to this end It were a senslesâ— thing to hang up a man in Iamaica for the terror of those that live in England Besides the sufferings of Believers here do come from the love and faithfulness of God Heb. 12. 6. Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth Psal. 119. 75. In faithfulness thou hast afflicted me Accordingly good men have looked upon them as choice mercies Psal. 97. 12. Blessed is the man whom thou chastnest and Psal. 119. 67. It was good for me that I was afflicted and the denial of afflictions is threatned as a grievous punishment Is. 1. 5. Hos. 4. 14. 17. But now the sufferings of Purgatory are in all points contrary they are purely vindictive and the effects of meer wrath nor do you esteem those sufferings a mercy and your happiness but freedom from them And therefore your Argument from the pains of this life to those in Purgatory is foolish and absurd Thirdly Believers suffering here do not at all derogate from the fulness of our Redemption by Christ because as I have shewed admitting that to be compleat yet they are necessary for other purposes But your Purgatory sufferings do by communicating at least some part of his proper work to your selves You profess they wash away part of your sins which is Christs peculiar honor He washed us from our sins in his own blood Rev. 1. 5. You make them a part of the curse of the Law from which and not only from a part of it Christ hath redeemed us himself being made a curse for us Gal. 3. 13. You make them a real satisfaction in part to Gods justice which is not satisfied by all that Christ did or suffered without them And in a word you make men in part their own Redeemers and Saviours I hope by this you see how weakly you reason from present troubles to Purgatory torments and that notwithstanding your objection my first Argument stands good agâ—inst Purgatory My second Argument is this that the Scripture every where speaks of the state of Believers immediately after death as happy and blessed and that all the sufferings of Believers are confined to this life and of this we have many expressions and examples too in Scripture and not one to the contrary The sufferings of this present time saith S. Paul are not worthy to be compared with the glory Rom. 8. 18. He knew no other sufferings the afflictions of Believers are light and but for a moment and they too are in things that are seen 2 Cor. 4. 17 18.
the creature and expresly saith It is not absur'd that holy men be called our Redeemers after a sort and more of the like stuff we shall meet with before we part yet again your Religion as it depresseth God so it exalts the creature I will instance but in one thing and that is your Doctrine of Justification by the merit of good works A doctrine which S. Paul affirms gives unto a man matter of boasting and glorying Rom. 3. 27. Where is boasting then it is excluded By what Law of Works Nay but by the Law of Faith Rom. 4. 2. For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory Next you grant That it is the great design and intent of Religion to discourage and beat down sin which your Religion doth exceedingly incourage by your Doctrines and Practice in Absolutions and Indulgences In my acquaintance I have known several Papists that have wonderfully encouraged themselves in their wicked wayes from this consideration especially when Easter drew near because they knew they should very suddenly be shriven and absolved and be as they said as sound and clean as when they came first into the world I have known also divers of our loose Protestants that have turn'd to your Religion that they might have greater liberty for and the security in sin and in my Conscience If I would let my lusts choose a Religion for me they would presently lead me to your Religion And so again your Religion doth not at all promote serious holiness but the soul and spirit of it is dwindled away into meer formality What can be of more pestilent consequence to true holiness than to tell a man that the saying so many Pater-Nosters or Ave-Maries though it may be he is talking or gazing about in the midst of his Devotions will procure him acceptance with God Is it true that your great and devout Doctor Suarez saith That is it not essential to Prayer that a man should think of what he saith Pop. It is true he doth say so in his Book of Prayer Prot. Then I confess your Religion hath the advantage of ours for a man may do two businesses at once It hath set me much against your Religion since I understood that you turned that great Doctrine of Repentance into a meer formality What a sad Doctrine is it that your great Masters teach that Repentance is not necessary at all times but only on Holy-daies as some of your Authors say only once in a year that is at Easter as others Nay indeed once in all his life and that in danger of death as Navar and Cajetan what an encouragement is this to wickedness to tell men that a thousand of their sins are venial which though not repented of will not exclude them from the favour of God and from Salvation but I will rake no farther into this kennel I think this may serve turn to let you see that I had warrant to say That your Religion contradicts the design and end of all Religion V. The fifth Consideration that sets me against your Religion is the desperate issues that you are driven to in the defence of your Cause as for example in the great point of Infallibility I observe your learned Doctors are beaten out of all their former Assertions and Opinions you have been driven from Scripture to the Fathers from them to the Pope from him to a Council and thence to the Pope with a Council and as a further sign of a desperate cause the Jesuits are brought to that exigence that they are forced to affirm the Pope to be infallible in matters of fact which is confessedly a new upstart and indeed monstrous Opinion and yet those piercing wits see their cause cannot be defended without it and others seeing the vanity of all their former pretences have been forced to resolve all into the present Churches testimony So for the point of Idolatry you are driven to those straits that you cannot excuse your selves from Idolatry but by such pretences as will excuse both Jewish and Gentile Idolaters and one of your ablest Champions is brought to this plunge that he is forced to affirm that some Idolatry is lawful I might instance in very many others but I forbear VI. A sixth consideration is taken from the partiality of your Religion That Religion which is from God is doubtless agreeable to the Nature and Will of God But so is not your Religion for it is guilty of that respect of persons which Scripture every where denies to be in God Act. 10. 34. Rom. 2. 11. Iob 34. 19. Pop. How is our Religion guilty of respect of persons Prot. I might shew it in many things but I will confine my self to one particular and that is in point of Indulgences The Souls of all that die in venial sins are doomed to those terrible pains of Purgatory there to continue none knows how long by the way I cannot but take notice of the great unhappiness of those Christians that lived and died in the dayes of Christ and the Apostles that have been multitudes of them frying in Purgatory to this day and are like to be so as long as the World lasts whereas those that live nearer the end of the World must needs have a far shorter abode there so men are punished with continuance of their torments meerly for the circumstance of time of their birth but this is not the thing I aim at from these pains of Purgatory there is no way to deliver a man but by indulgences and these indulgences must be bought off with money and wealthy men may buy off those corporal pains which the rascal herd must suffer without bail or main-prise and turn them into a fine of the purse So I see it was not without reason that Solomon said Money answers all things I have heard that your tax of the Apostolical Chancery put forth by the Authority of your Church where there is a price put upon all indulgences and upon all kinds of sins hath this expression Diligently note that these graces of Indulgences are not given to the Poor because they are not and therefore cannot be comforted by which I see that if St. Peter himself should rise from the dead and come to his Successour with his old tone Silver and Gold have I none if he were a thousand Peters he must into Purgatory without mercy I am told that another of your Authors Augustinus de Ancona an Author of great note with you tells us that Indulgences are for the relief of the Churches that is the Popes and their Prelates Indigencies which is not relieved by a willingness to give which is all that any poor man can pretend to but by the gift it self It seems your Church is not of Gods minde for if there be a willing mind he accepteth it for the deed 2 Cor. 8. 12. And a little after as I am told he saith as to the
in the case of Abraham's offering up Isaac and the Israelites spoiling the Aegyptians of their Jewels yet I need no other answer but this I directly deny that here is any contradiction at all For our question is not about the making of Images whether by Gods order or Mans but about the worshipping of them And albeit there were such Images made yet they were not made to be worshipped as I before proved nor was there any danger the people should worship them because they were not admitted to see them But I pray you answer me this one question I am told that divers of your own Authors confess that the Jews indeed were though Christians are not forbidden the use of Images by this command Is it so Pop. These indeed are the words of our famous Vasquez after he hath mentioned divers Authors for the contrary opinion There are saith he other Authors neither fewer nor inferiour to them who are of the contrary opinion which to me alwayes seemed most probable to wit that all the use of Images is here forbidden to the Jews and for this he quotes many of our approved Authors and Salmeron saith no less Prot. And you need say no more for then all these Authors thought your distinction of Image and Idol frivolous and that the word Pâ—sel is meant of any Images and not of Idols only as you foolishly distinguish and so your principal refuge is lost and you are convicted Idolaters and then if you repent not you know where your portion will be Go now and brag of the safeness of your Religion I see how little it is that you can say for your Worship of the Dead Saints and their Images let me hear whether you have any better Arguments for your Prayers for the Dead and Purgatory Pop. I am glad you mention that since all your Divines do agree that Prayer for the Dead was the practice of the Antient Church and Fathers Prot. If that be true it is not sufficient for your purpose for I am fully satisfied that the Fathers were not infallible and your own greatest Doctors think so too But Besides I am told that their Prayers for the dead were quite of another nature than yours and for other purposes and they were grounded upon some private opinions of theirs which you disown for they prayed not only for those whom you suppose to be in Purgatory but for those who you confess many of them never did come there they pray for all the Saints from the righteous Abel to this day they pray for all their Ancestors Patriarchs Prophets and Martyrs as I have heard it in some of their Liturgies Is it so Pop. It is so Prot. I pray you tell me what do you pray for the Dead Pop. We pray that God would deliver them from those dreadful pains of Purgatory Prot. Then if there be no Purgatory the foundation of your Prayers for the dead is gone Pop. I grant it Prot. Then let us discourse of the most fundamental point as we have hitherto done the rest will fall of course Therefore First I pray tell me your opinion concerning Purgatory Pop. Our Doctrine in brief is this That though God freely gives to all that are truly penitent forgiveness of their sins and freedom from eternal death yet since they have much venial sin and corruption in them in which oft-times they die therefore it is necessary that they should for the expiation of those sins and for the satisfaction of Gods Justice either do or suffer such Penances Fastings Prayers c. as are enjoyned them here or where those are not sufficient suffer the pains of Purgatorie Prot. I understand your Doctrine now let me hear two of your strongest Arguments to prove it I hear that Bellarmin threatens us that whosoever doth not believe Purgatory shall be tormented in Hell Is it true Pop. He doth say so and I am of his mind Prot. Then I hope you have very clear Arguments for it because you lay so great a stress upon it But first I have heard that this Doctrine of Purgatory is confessed by divers of your own Brethren to be but a new Doctrine Is it so Pop. I will not dissemble with you several of our Doctors have unadvisedly blurted out such expressions as these our famous English Martyr Fisher Bishop of Rochester confesseth That Purgatory was for a long time unknown and either never or very seldom mentioned among the Antient Fathers and Alphonsus de Castro saith That many things are known to us of which the Antient Writers were altogether ignorant and amongst them he reckons Purgatory which saith he the Greek Writers mentioned not and even to this day it is not believed by the Greek Church Prot. I suppose you do not think all these Antient Fathers were damned Pop. No God forbid for many of them were glorious Confessors and Martyrs Prot. Then I see Bellarmines threats are not very formidable But to let this pass How do you prove this Doctrine Pop. From plain Scripture 1. From Mat. 12. 32. Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world neither in the world to come Which clearly implies that some sins not forgiven in this world are forgiven in the next and that must be in Purgatory Prot. I pray you tell me what sins are they which are forgiven in Purgatory Pop. Not great and mortal but small and venial sins as we all agree Prot. Is not blasphemy against the Son of Man a mortal sin Pop. Yes doubtless But what of that Prot. If this Text proves the pardon of any sins it proves the pardon of that sin no less than others because the sin against the Holy Ghost is here spoken of as the only sin which is unpardonable in both worlds Besides Christ speaks thus in opposition to a corrupt opinion which I have heard now is and then was rife among the Jews to wit that divers of their sins were pardoned after this life and that this was one of their antient Prayers Let my death be the expiation of all my sins for they thought the sufferings of this life and death the last of them did free them from the punishments of the other life And I have heard that it was one of their sayings That every Israelite hath a part in the future life Are these things so Pop. To deal freely with you This is not only true but it is one of our Arguments for Purgatory that Jason the Cyrenian who lived long before Christs time expresly affirms that it is profitable to pray for the dead that their sins may be pardoned 2 Mac. 12. Prot. I think that is impertinently alledged for Purgatory for the sin those men died in was a mortal sin as you confess and therefore not pardonable in Purgatory But I thank you for this for now I am satisfied that it was an antient opinion among the Iews and so Christ had just
occasion to use this expression to confute that vain expectation of theirs But besides the meaning of this phrase Shall not be forgiven is that it shall be punished in both Worlds this is a frequent phrase in Scripture Thus Exod. 20. 7. God will not hold him guiltless that is he will severely punish To accept persons in judgment is not good that is is very bad The father of a fool rejoyceth not that is grieveth much I hear S. Chrysostome expounds it thus and a greater than he S. Mark 3. 29. He hath never forgiveness but is in danger of eternal damnation Besides all this we all agree that there is a kind of forgiveness of sin after this life and at the Day of Judgment Acts 3. 19. Repent that your sins may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord for then indeed the pardon of sin is compleated and fully manifested And it is a common phrase in Scripture to speak of a thing as done when it is only declared and manifested as the Apostle saith those words Psal. 2. This day have I begotten thee were fulfilled in Christs Resurrection Act. 13. because that declared him to be the only begotten Son o God as S. Paul saith Rom. 1. 4. To which I might add that by the World to come Christ may very probably understand the time of the New Testament which begun at Christs death The Iews I hear oft use this expression of the days of the Messias Nay the Apostle himself doth so Heb. 2. 5. This also I have read that the Iews did generally expect a more plentiful and glorious remission of sins at that time and so Christs meaning may be this That this blasphemy shall not be forgiven neither in that time nor state of the Church in which Christ then was nor in the time of the Gospel and Kingdom of the Messias which began at his death as I said when though there should be many great sins and sinners pardoned as we see there were yet this should not I hope you will not brag much of your Argument from this place let me hear your other place Pop. My second Argument is from 1 Cor. 3. 15. He shall be saved yet so as by fire that is the fire of Purgatory Prot. It seems you understand this fire properly which is something strange when the whole place is metaphorical or figurative The Gold and Silver Hay and Stubble all are metaphorical and so doubtless is the fire I hear your Bellarmin confesseth that the fire mentioned v. 13. The fire shall try every mans work is not meant of Purgatory Pop. He doth indeed say so Prot. That is enough to overthrow this Argument for it is most evident that the fire vers 13. and 15. is one and the same And this Fire cannot be Purgatory 1. Because it is the Fire of the Day of Judgement when you confess Purgatory ends The time of the last Judgement is called the Day by way of eminency Heb. 10. 25. 2 Tim. 1 12. 18. and 4. 8. and 1 Thess. 5. 4. And the day of revelation or manifestation of all things because then all mens works will be manifested and the day wherein Christ will come in flaming fire 2 This fire burns the works of men only their Hay and Stubble not their persons as your Purgatory doth 3 This fire tries both good and bad All pass through it The Gold and Silver is in this fire no less than the Hay and Stubble Pop. How then I pray you do you understand this place Prot. It is a Metaphor or Figurative way of speaking frequent in Scripture and common use The delivered Jews are said to be as a fire brand pluckt out of the burning Amos 4. 11. Zach. 3. 2. So here he shall be saved so as by fire that is not without difficulty of loss and possibly some momentany shame but howsoever the fire shall burn up his work and he shall lose that part of his reward Now I have heard your Arguments I hope you will hear mâ—ne Pop. I am ready to do that Prot. I shall urge only two First Christ hath fully paid our debt and satisfied Gods Justice for all our offences and therefore it were injustice in God to require the payment of any part of that debt in Purgatory Christ is a compleat Saviour His blood cleanseth us from all sin 1 Joh. 1. 7. He is able and sure he is no less willing to save to the uttermost those that come to him Heb. 7. 25. God laid all our sins upon him Isa. 53. and he bare them all in his body 1 Pet. 2. 24. In short either you make Christ but an half Saviour and believers wash away part of their own guilt or if Christ hath fully washed away their guilt you make god both unmerciful and unjust and untrue too so dreadfully to punish innocent persons and those too his own children as you acknowledge whom he declares he hath freely and fully pardoned and to do this for sins which you confess venial and such as do not deserve the loss of Gods favour and that without any necessity This is not the act of a Father especially so tender a Father as God is Pop. Christ is a sufficient Saviour and hath fully satisfied but his satisfaction is applied to us by the pains of Purgatory Prot. If Purgatory only apply Christs satisfaction to us then he satisfied for our temporal as well as our eternal punishments and if he did so surely he did it fully or not at all Besides you need not trouble your heads about the application God hath provided for us more comfortable means of application on his part the Word Sacraments and Spirit on our parts Faith You may keep Purgatory for your own use it is not fit you should be pestered with any Hereticks there But was ever such an application of Gods Grace heard of since the World began that God should apply his Mercy and the Grace of Christ Jesus by such exquisite torments This is as one truly saith as if a man should apply Physick by poison or apply the light of the Sun by putting out our eyes God deliver us from such appliers This is as if a Prince should pretend a free pardon to a Malefactor and apply it by putting him upon the Rack Pop. Though Christ made satisfaction for the guilt of mortal sins and eternal punishment yet he did not for venial sins nor temporal punishment and therefore they must purge out those themselves in Purgatory Prot. If it were true that you say yet there is no need of Purgatory for this purging worke may be done by temporal afflictions in this life The truth is you add sin to sin and excuse one errour with another But what do you mean by venial sins Pop. We mean such smaller sins as do not exclude a man from Gods favour nor from Heaven Prot. Then surely you have very slight thoughts