opposed to our argumentes as you oppose it in the last Chapter You might if the Maior were true labour to the purpose I graunt in prouing the Minor But you might not I say for all that make of it an opposition or exception when we make argumentes out of Traditions Councels Fathers c. as in the like I shew vnto you I proue a doctrine vnto you out of the Old Testament you oppose therevnto your negatiue argument and say to me All true doctrine is taught in the New Testament for so you do holde and must holde that doctrine is not taught in the New Testament therfore that doctrine is no true doctrine Is this well opposed of you May not I say to you notwithstanding Yea syr but for all that what say you to my place alleaged out of the Old Testament vnlesse you haue any thing against the Old Testament it selfe Euen so vnles you haue any thing directly against Traditions them selues Councels Fathers and suche others our argumentes do preuayle and you in vayne do flée to Only Scripture although all true doctrine were taught in Scripture Now to the second question concerning the Church ¶ The second part Concerning the question of the Church About the Church his contradictions are very many and very palpable as I will declare in the eleuenth Chapter Here I haue to examine what he alleageth first indefinitely That the Church may erre That it may be diuorced That it is a base and contemptible companie That it may and also should become inuisible and then by name That the Protestantes haue the true Church or That the Papistes haue it not j Of the Church indefinitely That the whole Church may erre he alleageth and saith According to the saying of the Scripture Euery man is a lyer Ar. 86. Wherfore the whole Church militant consisting of men which are all lyers may erre altogether Why do you say The church militant Doth not the Church triumphant also consist of men If therefore all men be lyers why may not they also erre No doubt because although all men are lyers of them selues yet some men may notwithstanding by the gifte of God be veraces true And so where you conclude thus vpon vs God onely is not true Pur. 451. for the Pope can not erre you might conclude aswell God onely is not true for the Apostles can not erre Againe you alleage and say The true and only Church of God hath no such priuiledge graunted Ar. 88. but that she may be deceiued in some things For her knowledge is vnperfect her prophecying is vnperfect 1. Cor. 13. Where you her S. Paule saith our including him selfe also in that speache Ex parte enim cognoscimus c. For our knowledge is vnperfect and our prophecying is vnperfect so long as we be in this life whether we speake or write And yet you will not say I trow that S. Paule therefore might be deceiued in his writings and Epistles So then the Churches priuiledge knowledge prophecying may be vnperfect and yet she withall so frée from erring that she may be bolde in her determinations to say Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Act. 15. It hath bene thought good of the holy Ghost and of vs. Againe you say And it is true that S. Augustine saith Euen the whole Church is taught to say euery day Ar 88. Pur. 393. Aug. Retra li. 2. ca. 18. Forgeue vs our trespasses But why so because the whole Church doth erre in her determinations euery day It were ridiculous so to say Why theÌ„ Propter quasdam ignorantias infirmitates membrorum suorum Because of certayne veniall sinnes of her members procéeding of ignorance frayltie saith S. Augustine In which members the Apostles also in their time were and therefore they also accordingly were taught to say euery day Forgeue vs our trespasses and did say accordingly Iac 3. 1. Io. 1. We do all offend in many things And yet I trow they did not erre nor could erre in their Canonicall writinges and determinations This is all that you bring to proue the whole Churche of Christ may erre Though you alleage one other place that the whole Synagogue did erre and yet that also onely in a fact not in a doctrine yea neither the whole Synagogue but a piece onely So that there bee as you see no lesse then three walles as it were betwene the Church and this shotte of yours These are your wordes Pur. 224.456 Dauid transgressed the law of God to carry the Arke vpon a new chariotte which should haue bene borne vpon mens shoulders … y blindnesse 1. Chron. 13. wherin not onely Dauid but so many priests and Leuites so good a Bishop and the whole Generall Councell of Israel did erre So say you but so saith not the texte yea it vtterly confoundeth both you and all these prophane innouations made by your ley heades and Parliamentes Dauid tooke counsaile saith the texte with his Tribunes and Centurions 1. Par. 13. 1â—… and all his Nobles He did not so much as consulte no not with the inferiour sorte of the Priestes but onelie If you please quoth he to his temporall Lordes and if the motion be of God let vs sende to the rest of our brethern in all the lande of Israel and to the priestes and Leuites in their Suburbes as you woulde saie the hedge Priestes that they gather vnto vs and we fetche agayne to vs the Arke of God And so they beganne in suche maner as you reporte vntill God killed Oza the Leuite in the procession and so made Dauid afraide to carrie it any further But three monethes after hauing found his error he gathered not onelie all Israel into Ierusalem but also filios Aaron Sadoc et Abiathar Sacerdotes The Successors of Aaron Sadoc and Abiathar the high priestes Leuitas and the Leuites with the heades of them being these six Vriel Asaias Ioel Semeias Eliel and Aminadab These two Bishops and these sixe Archedeacons that I may so tearme them he called and saide vnto them You that are the heades of the Leuiticall families prepare your selues together with your brethren and bring the Arke of our Lorde God of Israel to the place whiche is dressed for it least that as before because you were not present our Lorde did smite vs so nowe also it happen for our vnlawfull doing A notable ensample for all Princes and for al nobles to remember how they haue offended and to amende it accordingly and all A maiori in euery respect aboue the highest degree One more of your places I thinke good here to examine though you bring it not to proue that the Church may erre but onely to answere a place that we bring for the contrary Ar. 86. The true and onely Church of Christ you say can neuer be voide of Gods spirite and yet she may erre from the trueth and be deceaued in some thinges euen as
and they shall see the sonne of man comming in the cloudes of heauen with passing power and maiestie He exhorteth also there to the flight spoken of in the Apocalipse Cum ergo videritis Abominationem desolationis quae dicta est a Daniele propheta stanteÌ„ in loco sancto The consummation being now come you shall see the Abomination of desolation which was spoken of by Daniel the Prophet standing in the holy place vbi non debet where alas it should not Mar. 13. And afore that time Videte ne turbemini Looke that you be not disquieted But when you sée this tunc qui in Iudaea sunt fugeant ad montes Then to preuent the horrible persecution imminent let all sortes of good people flee and with all hast flée not standing to consult but renouncing at once all that they haue and committing them selues roundly and wholly to the helpe of God from aboue Which the Elect then shall do with all alacritie euen as willing to be martyred as the Dragon and Antichrist shall be to martyr theÌ„ And that is it that the Apocalypse hath in these words And the earth the elect ouer al the world did helpe the woman when the Serpent did poure out of his mouth after her now fleing into the wildernes water like a flood and the earth opened his mouth and supped vp the flood Abhomination The Abhomination of Desolation standing in the Holy place and that to be séene so vniuersally whiche is here giuen for the watchworde to the woman to flée in suche maner the same of S. Paule is said to be Antichrist him selfe so proude aboue all measure 2. Thes 2. Ita vt in templo Dei sedeat That he will sitte in the temple of God setting out him selfe as if he were God To know what Daniel meaneth by Desolation of the Temple Desolation we must looke in him Pa. 11. 12. what occupied the temple dayly before and we finde it to be called of him Inge Sacrificium The continuall Sacrifice By the which S. Paule also prophecied 1. Cor. 11. that we should announce our Lordes death Hippo. Martyr â—rat de Antich Consumma mundi Hier in Da. xij Donec veniat Vntill his comming And the auncient Fathers do say therevpon accordingly The preciouse body and bloud of Christ non extabit shall not be extant to be openly séene in those dayes of Antichrist The Liturgie or Masse shall be extinguished The Psalmodie of the Canonicall houres shall cease So then the taking away of this dayly Sacrifice out of all Churches is the Desolation And the Abhomination sette there in steade thereof is that man of Sinne that sonne of perdition Antichrist him selfe partly in his owne person partly in his Image whereof the Apocalypse speaketh Apo. 13.14.16.19 as it doth also of his Characters or Markes both in mens handes and in their foreheades And for the time when this shall be Daniel agréeth with the Gospell and Apocalypse for he saith And from the time when the dayly Sacrifice shall be taken away and the Abhomination set vp for Desolation dayes 1290. Blessed is he that exspecteth and commeth to dayes 1335. Likewise S. Paule agréeth vpon the same time Mat. 24. For as the Apostles would learne of our Lorde a signe of his comming and of the consummation of the world so the Thessalonians likewise being troubled 2. Thes 2. quasi instet dies Domini As though the day of our Lorde had then bene instant the Apostle teacheth them the contrarie and saith Nequis vos seducat vllo modo Let not any seduce you in any case for Antichrist must first be reuealed and then in déede the day of our Lorde is instant for our Lorde Iesus will kill him with the breath of his mouth so easily him that séemeth so mightie and will make frustrate all his procéedings by the manifestation of his owne comming Another thing also he there nameth Defection which must be afore our Lords coÌ„ming be instant saying Nisi venerit discessio primum That same Apostasie must come before Which thing he so distinguisheth from the other thing that is from the reuelation of Antichrist that for this he remembreth them of a certaine token thereof which he had more playnly tolde them as also al the rest by word of mouth and it is commonly taken to be the vtter abolishing of the Romane Emperour Donec de medio fiat qui tenet nunc tunc And then shall be reuealed that impious man But to the comming of the Apostasie he giueth not that token signifying that although it also shall be at the instant of our Lordes comming yet neuerthelesse while the Romaine Emperour is in a sorte remayning Whether Antichrist or the Apostasie agree to the Protestantes So that by the time it is euident that neither Antichrist Antichrist and the Protestante nor the Apostasie agréeth to Bonifacius the third neither do I saye that Antichrist agréeth to Luther or Caluin or any other of you He shall be another maner of felow Iwis also the time of his raigne in persecution iumpe thrée yeres and a halfe according to the foresaid Scriptures Howbeit this is certayne that you amongst you haue done Antichrist most notable and worthy seruice to make the fooles that heare you not think of his comming nor to thinke that he shall be One certayne person Si patrem f. Beelzebub vocauerunt quanto magis domemesticos eius as the Scripture is euident but rather take Christes Vicar and so many his Vicares to be the man that so when he coÌ„meth he may go away withall more smoothly Yet the Elect will be we know better aduised But this I will boldly say The Apostasie and the Protestantes that your Heresie is so like to the foresaid Apostasie that but for one place in the Apocalipse I would boldly pronounce with my Mother and Mystresse the Churches leaue that it is euen the selfe same The place is in the first Vae Apoc. 8.9.10.11 vnder the first Angell trumpeter For the second Vae vnder the sixt Angel is playnly of Antichrist And the third or last Vae vnder the seuenth and last Angell is playnly of Domesday Therefore the first vae must be the next thing immediatly before Antichrist And it is of marueilous Locustes by a certayne falling starre let out of hell Apo. .9 Locusies Their king is the Angell of hell called in Hebrew Abaddon in Greeke Apollyon in Latin Exterminans in English Destroyer Their power is not to kill the faithful but to torment them fiue monethes yet that in so miserable a maner that they shall desire rather to be killed All this more in that place Now the time of their persecution commeth to short of yours Also the vniuersalitie item the vehemencie thereof ouerreacheth yours though your will be as good as theirs as by Elmers Rackes some Catholikes haue had experience But otherwise manifold
body before the generall Resurrection If that be so manifest what els was it then but the rest of his soule that Martha would haue Christ to pray for when she saide thus vnto him But also now I know that whatsoeuer things thou shalt aske of God God will graunt thee To whiche purpose also some auncient writers expound that place But to alleage places is not my intent here it is onely to answere your allegations And now hauing done with all your negatiues we are come to your affirmatiues ij Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmatiue First about certayne foundations of Purgatory and prayer for the dead For breuitie to speake ioyntly of Purgatory and of relieuing the soules that be there your affirmatiue allegations against both are leuied by you partly at the foundation of them partly at the two them selues And the foundations béeing diuerse you haue both seuerall shot agaynst the seuerals and also one common shot against all or many of them in common To eche sorte I shall with the helpe of God whose cause it is make answere most easily and most truely The distinction of Veniall and Mortall sinne And first D. Allen declareth out of the Doctors Pur. 126.127.128 what sinnes may be purged in Purgatory to wit not onely such as are Veniall of their owne nature but also suche as are mortall of their owne nature so that they were in Gods Church remitted afore Fulke sayth that This is manifestly ouerthrowen by the worde of God euen from the foundations For the foundation of this doctrine is the distinction of veniall and mortall sinnes Not so syr the doctrine is that mortall sinnes by the Churches remission become as veniall and you graunt it your self saying All sinnes except certayne of which your good exceptions I shall say more anone by Gods mercy are pardonable or veniall Thus you graunt the doctrine and yet you graunt not the foresaid distinction therfore the distinction is not the foundation of that doctrine but the doctrine may stand well without it But yet for other causes we must be content to sée what you alleage against the distinction The worde of God playnely determineth that euery sinne is mortall deserueth eternall death seeme it neuer so small So you say and you alleage thrée places for it The first Cursed is euery one that abideth not in all thinges that are written in the Lawe to fulfill them Deut. 27. I syr but find you in the Scripture no other Curse that is to say payne for sinne but eternall death Is it not written Cursed is euery one that hangeth on tree yet hāging on trée or crucifying Deut. 21. Gal. 3. is not eternall death Agayne euery one in that saying is meant by the Apostles exposition not of Christians but of them onely whiche trust in the lawe for it selfe who in déede can neuer attayne to no remission neither of their mortall nor of their veniall sinnes But we that holde of Christ and of his spirite are in case alwayes to receiue remission whensoeuer we sinne venially 1. Ioan. 1.3 for so we can But we can not sinne mortally holding I say Christ and his spirite And therefore if we do sinne mortally at any time depriuing our selues thereby of Christes spirite the remedie is to séeke for the same agayne by the Sacrament of penaunce and then are we in good case agayne as before Your other two places are these The soule that sinneth shall dye Ezech. 18. and The rewarde of sinne is death Rom. 6. S. Iames giueth vs the meaning of these suche like places where he saith Peccatum verò cum consummatum fuerit generat mortem Iac. 1. Sinne when it is consummate gendreth death But not so soone as it is gendred and yet it is sinne as soone as it is gendred Therefore some sinne there is which yet gendreth not death Marke the order Deinde concupiscentia cum conceperit parit peccatum peccatum verò cum consummatū fuerit generat mortem First commeth the temptation of our concupiscence as it were of a lewde woman Secondly concupiscence when she hath conceiued by obteining some light consent beareth sinne venial sinne Mary thirdly Sinne when it is consummate by our full and perfect consent yéelded vnto it gendreth or bringeth foorth death if the matter be of weight accordingly For els that the lightnes of the matter as an idle worde bringeth not death he sufficiently signifieth in saying that in a weightie matter the lightnes or imperfection of consent doth it not Whether after sinne remitted payne may remayne Now to another foundation to wit That culpa the fault both in Venial and in Mortal sinne may be forgiuen of God and of his Church and yet some payne though not eternall be owing for it sometime so that the same must in such case be in this life eyther payde or pardoned or els in Purgatory it wil be exacted Pur. 45. This is against Ezechiel saith Fulke What time soeuer a man doth truely repent the Lord doth put al his sinnes out of his remembraunce You might haue done well to quote the place where Ezechiel so saith ad verbum The trueth is that in a moment the repentaunce may be so great that there is no more remembraunce at all But Ezechiel if you meane the 18. Chapter speaketh of a longer time so that The wicked man must repent him of all his sinnes and keepe all Gods commaundementes and do right and iustice and then vita viuit non morietur when the day commeth to rewarde euery one according to his workes here He shall liue not dye All his iniquities that he worked I will not remember saith God for his iustice that he wrought he shall liue For otherwise who knoweth not those voyces Psal 24.78 Lord remember not the sinnes of my youth and Lord remember not our old sinnes Are they not the words of men which had already repented them acknowledging neuerthelesse that God may yet remember them Againe you say It is against Dauid Pur. 45.46 Psal 102. The Lord hath remoued our sinnes from vs as farre as the east is from the west Who may not say this for béeing remoued frō eternall damnation although he haue yet to abide neuer so much temporall punishment Howbeit those words as the whole Psalme are not spokē of the time of our first receiuing againe into the fauour of God by absolution but to magnifie his mercy in our finall restitution which shal be at the later day For which cause the Church very aptly singeth that Psalme vpon the feast of Christes Ascention Also out of the New Testament you say The Publicane Pur. 43. the Prodigall childe the Debters all clearely remitted do playnely proue that God frely forgiueth iustifieth rewardeth the penitent sinners without exacting any punishment of them for answering of the debt satisfying for the sinnes abusing his fatherly clemēcie Luk. 7.15.18 You speake here very indefinitely as though God
terme call the boulke of a thing As for the interior substance that question belonged to his Incarnation not to his assumption whereof nowe they talke Neither may any Logician thinke it straunge for the worde Substantia to be so vsed if he consider well howe the worde Corpus is vsed in the predicament of Quantitie though it be otherwise a species of Substantia But the mysticall likenes saith the Heretike chaungeth at the least his former calling For it is no more named that which it was tearmed before but it is called Body Therefore also the veritie in heauen must be called God and not Body Not so saith the Catholike It is named not onely Corpus Body but also panis vitae Bread of life And so likewise the body in heauen we name it Diuinum corpus viuisicum dominicum docentes non esse commune alicuius hominis c. The diuine and viuificall and Dominicall body teaching that it is not a common one of some mans but our Lordes Iesus Christ who is God and man Where you sée that suche a difference as he putteth betwene our common bodies and our Lord Gods body the like he putteth betwene common bread and this bread of life which therefore with him is Christes body vnder the forme of bread béeing thereby become as properly bread as coÌ„mon bread is bread and not the common substance of common bread which no man can say to be bread of life vj. About the Sacrament of Penance Now to approche nearer to Purgatorie about the Sacrament of Penance the Church of God saith foure things First that by the Priestes absolution the guilt of sinne is remitted and so the penitent reconciled to God and therefore pardoned the eternall payne of hell Secondly that after this remission for all that he may yet be in debt of some temporall payne Thirdly that he may and must pay the same temporall debt by workes of Satisfaction Fourthly that vpon good cause a Bishop may pardon it in parte and the Pope wholly Against these foure points Fulke alleageth saying Absolution Pur 168. But what auayleth this submission to Gods ministers when the Priest doth not by his Absolution take away one houres tormentes in Purgatorie as both M. Allen him selfe in effect confesseth and the master of Sentences also teacheth It auayleth to take away the eternall torments of hell Is that nothing with you When you be in them your saucie tong would giue all the world for the least touch of the fingers ende of Gods Priestes whom now in your hereticall pride you despise farre more then the riche Iewe did poore Lazarus Temporall debt remayning after Absolution Agaynst the second you alleage Augustine and Chrysostome euen against themselues for in the third chapter pag. 16. you confessed them both to stand for Purgatorie which implieth debt of payne after remission of sinnes But go to what saith Austine He saith quoth you of the deaths of Moises Aaron Pur. 42. Aug. in vet Test lib. 4. ca. 53 that they were signes of things to come not punishments of Gods displeasure This is your sinceritie His wordes immediatly afore be these When it is said to them Vt apponantur ad populum suuÌ„ that they should be gathered to their people It is manifest that they be not in the wrath of god which separateth from the peace of the holy eternall societie And thereby it is manifest that also their deathes were signes of things to come which things he there declareth and not punishments of Gods indignation You sée how precisely he speaketh to wit of Gods wrath indignation which punisheth by death to separate from his people for euer least he should haue spoken contrarie to the most manifest texte and to him selfe a litle before where he said that God foretolde them both quod ideo non intrarent that therefore they should not enter into the lande quia non eum sanctificauerunt because they doubted of his gifte that water could flowe of a Rocke And so is the text it selfe moste euidently Nu. 20.27 Deut. 32. You shall not bring this people into the lande but you shall dye because you did not beleeue me because you offended me because you trespassed against me And yet you will not graunt that for their sinne the fault béeing remitted they were punished by death These are they that will not stand agaynst euident Scripture Likewise about the example of Dauid you say Pur. 43. I would wish no better authoritie of the auntient Fathers then euen that which M. Allen him selfe alleageth out of Augustine contra Faustum li. 22. cap. 67. that the punishment of Dauid was flagelli paterni disciplina the chastisement of Gods fatherly scourge as he doth moste playnely declare the same in his booke De pec mer. ac rem li. 2. ca. 23. Is suche authoritie so good to proue that after the fault is forgiuen that is after the sonne is receiued againe into fauour no payne is owing Belike then you scourge your children that offend not aswel as them that haue offended and them also that haue offended you scourge not only after that you haue receiued them agayne into fauour but also after that you haue pardoned them all punishment Then surely are you as wise a father as a diuine No reasonable man but hearing of a fathers scourge would by by gather of it punishment for some offence where you gather the contrarie A fathers scourge ergo no punishmeÌ„t But your author S. Augustine doth not so In the chapter before commending his humility sub flagello dei 2. Reg. 16. vnder Gods scourge when Semei so diuelishly reuiled him he reporteth how Dauid said Meritis suis hoc redditum superno iudicio That this was executed vpon him by Gods iudgement for his desertes that is for the same matters of Vrias wherof he speketh in the place by you alleaged out of the Chapter following and saith that the Prophet Nathan told him quòd acceperit veniam that he had forgiuenes ad sempiternam quidem salutem as to euerlasting saluation But notwithstanding as God had threatened him flagelli paterni disciplina non est praetermissa The fatherly scourges chastisement was not omitted to the end that both for his confession of his sinne he might be deliuered euerlastingly and by such affliction he might be tried temporally Where also he commendeth him for not murmuring agaynst God as if he had sent him a false pardon of his sinnes Intelligebat enim c. For by his profound wisedome he vnderstood but that God was gratious to him confessing and repenting how worthy his sinnes were of euerlasting paynes for the which sinnes being beaten with temporal corrections he saw that vnto him continued the forgiuenes and Phisicke withall not neglected So expresly he saith that he was beaten for his sinnes for his deserts although withall it was Phisicke for him and prâ—bation Neither in the other place De pec mer. doth
beneath M. Allen affirmeth that S. Augustine neuer doubteth but intercession may be made vnto them for the dead whosoeuer wil take the paines to reade the treatise de cura pro mortuis ageÌ„da shal find nothing els but doubtes and questions of that matter So he saith not marking what him selfe there citeth out of that booke August de â—ur cap. 16. to witte where S. Augustine concludeth the whole matter in the end and saith Ista questio vires intelligentiae meae vincit quemadmoduÌ„ opitulantur Martyres ijs quos per eos Certum est opitulari This question passeth the strength of mine vnderstanding how the Martyrs helpe them whom it is certain to be helped of them Certum est saith S. Augustine and Fulke alleageth it and euen so Englisheth it it is certaine and yet onely because he can not define Howe as to this day also it remaineth a very hard question he sticketh not againe to say there immediatly These places and the whole discourse of that booke doth proue that although Augustine were willing to maintaine the superstition that was not throughly confirmed in his time about Burialls and Inuocation of Saintes yet he hath nothing of certaintie c. At least wise this declareth that S. Ambrose and S. Augustine are ioyned of him with S. Hierome in that error Hier. li. 2. con Vigil and not with Vigilantius amongst those many godly and learned Byshops of that time of whom also he hath no author so to count them by S. Hierome it appeareth that they were very few vngodly and vnlearned and against all the thrée Patriarchal Churches of the East of Egypt and of the See Apostolike in that they tooke part with Vigilantius and so with Iouinianus condemned by the authoritie of the Romane Church And so much of the auncient true Churches erring in Inuocation of sainctes iij. As touching Iouinian of fasting of Virginities merite of Vâ—â—aries mariage Now to adde more likewise of their erring in condemning of Iouinian D. Allens wordes are these Iouinianus taught the contempt of Christian fastes matched mariage with holy maidenhood Pur. 11.13 and afterward to the great wonder of all the Church perswaded certaine religious women in Rome to forsake their first faith Hier. con Ioui li. 2. and mary to their damnation for which plaine supporting of vndoubted wickednes S. Hierome calleth them often Christian Epicures boulsterers of sinne and doctors of lust and lecherie Neuerthelesse the force of Gods grace which was great in the spring of our Religion the sinne of the world not yet ripe for such open shew of licentious life speedely repressed that wicked attempt for as S. Augustine declareth it was so cleare a falshood that it neuer grew to deceaue any one of all the Cleargie Fulkes answere herevnto is no more but this If Iouinian were so great an heretike as you make him yet he him selfe as you shew after out of Augustine offended not in that which he perswaded others to doe He meaneth that place when D. Allen somewhat after speaketh of these newe Superintendentes and ministers and saith that they much exeede Iouinianus Pur. 17.22 who as Augustine reporteth of him being a Monke mainteined the mariage of Votaries but yet for diuers inconueniences him selfe for all that would not be maried August ad quod haer 28. And there to S. Augustine by name he saith nothing but turneth his talke to D. Allen demauÌ„ding of him thus Where learned you but of the diuell him selfe to commaund abstinence from meates and mariage for Religions sake to some men at all times and to all men at some times If for these and for an hundreth such you can shewe no better warrant then the termes of your fathers A good child the practise of your elders or the authoritie of mortal men the curse of God pronounced by Esay against them that call euill good or good euill must needes be turned ouer vnto you With the same boldnes in an other place where D. Allen had giueÌ„ this obseruation You shal not lightly heare an heretike that denyeth praying to sainctes Pur. 4â—1 402. or holdeth with open breach of holy vowes alleage Iouinianus or Vigilantius But they will trauaile to writhe with plaine iniurie to the author some sentence out of Augustine or Ambrose or some other that by their whole life and practise open them selues to the world to beleeue the contrarie He saith thervnto M. Allen geueth a speciall note that we name not Iouinian or Vigilantius but rather hang vpon some sentence of Augustine or Ambrose and thinketh we are ashamed of the other But we neither boast vpon Augustine nor Ambrose when they dissent from our doctrine neither are ashamed of Vigilantius nor Berengarius when they agree therewith iiij As touching Ceremonies Likewise of their erring in Ceremonies and such other traditions this he saith more besides that which I haue already reported Pur. 256 Their time he speaketh of Gregory Nissen and Athanasius the great had diuers errors and superstitious Ceremonies Againe Ar. 91. If the Church had not approued many vnprofitable and hurtfull vsages among the people in S. Augustines time what neede had he to complaine that many of God his commaundementes were litle regarded and mans presumptions so highly esteemed See the answer cap. 6. pag. Sed hoc nimis doleo c. But herewith I am to much greeued that many things which in God his booke are most holsomely commaunded are lesse regarded and all things are so ful of so many presumptions that he is more greeuously reproued which in his Vtas hath touched the earth with his bare foote then he that hath buried his minde in dronkennes So farre out of S. Augustine Therefore if it be an vnprofitable and hurtfull vsage to preferre mans traditions before God his commaundements the Church in S. Augustines time approued an vnprofitable and hurtfull vsage Furthermore if the Churche can not approue an vnprofitable or hurtfull vsage wherefore are so many Ceremonies as were approued in S. Augustine and S. Ambroses times abrogated and disanulled either because they were vnprofitable Pur. 391. Tert. de coro mil. or else hurtfull Againe where D. Allen sayth They confesse Tertullian 1300. yeares agoe to haue practised oblations for the dead And aske him where he had it for surely he inuented it not him selfe and he appointeth vs to his forefathers He nameth the Apostles for the authors and founders thereof as of many other thinges which he there reckeneth beside that were generally receaued and now be of heretikes likewise condemned Pu. 400 393.264 He answereth Tertullian fathered manifest fables vpon the institution of Christ and the Apostles as you your selfe * Infra cap. 6. pag. can not denie if you haue any conscience at all As On the Sonday and betweene Easter and Whitsontide not to fast or pray vpon our knees Also To crosse our selues in the foreheade at all thinges
places Nowe what maketh all this for Fulke vnlesse he thinke he hath any vauntage in his owne false translation of Acta turning it Decrees Yea doth it not make against him most inuincibly as all the rest also that S. Augustine hath written against the Donatistes for his Church ours that is for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence spreding ouer all Nations to the very last time euen in the same maner altogether as it had done to S. Augustines time iij About certaine Traditions Vpon this question of Onely Scripture I haue stood long because Onely Scripture Onely faith are with the Protestantes all in all howbeit they haue neither Scripture nor Faith Now to dispatche other questions very briefly agaynst certayne Traditions Fulke alleageth saying Beatus Rhenanus a Papist and a great Antiquarie affirmeth that by the Canons of the Nicene Councell and other Councels which he hath seene in Libraries those oblations pro Natalitijs with other superstitions that Tertullian fathereth vpon Tradition of the Apostles were abrogated As touching oblations pro Natalitijs I haue answered in the sixt Chapter Cap. 6. par 1. v. But as for abrogation of any other Traditions Rhenanus hath neuer a word iiij About the mariage of Votaries For the mariage of such as haue vowed virginitie Ar. 45. Pur. 22.23 you alleage one place of Epiphanius thrise another of S. Hieromes twise and all about a matter that we hold euen as they did Thus you saye Epiphanius Hpiph li. 2 Haer. 61. although he count it an offence to marrie after their vowe therein he is with vs you know yet he saith speaking of such as secretly liue in fornication sub specie solitudinis aut continentiae vnder the colour of vowed singlenes or continencie It is better to marrie then to burne that first is not in Epiphanius Melius est itaque vnum peccatum habere non plura It is better to haue one sinne rather then many It is better for him that is fallen from his course wherein he beganne to runne for the Crowne of Virginitie openly to take a wyfe according to the lawe a virginitate multo tempore poenitentiam agere and a long time to repent to do penaunce for breaking that vowe of his virginitie and so hauing done his full penaunce to be brought agayne into the Churche out of the which he was caste as an excommunicate person for breaking his vow as one that hath done amisse as one that is fallen and broken and hauing neede to be bound rather then to be wounded dayly with priuie dartes of that wickednesse whiche the diuell putteth into him So knoweth the Church to preach Haec sunt sanationis medicamenta These are the medicines of healing Whereof you gather and say that Epiphanius calleth marriage of suche men an holsome medicine contrarie to that you confesse your selfe that he calleth it a sinne for so doth the Apostles Tradition saith he vnlesse perhaps you thinke Sinne to be an holsome medicine No syr the holsome medicins are his long penance and his reconcilement to the Church againe But at the least say you Epiphanius alloweth marriage in them whereas the Popish Church did separate them from their wiues in queene Maries time After a solemne vow which is made but only two ways by taking holy orders by professing some common approued rule of Religion to marrie is * Chry. ep 6 ad Theod. MonachuÌ„ lapsum Basil lib. de virginitate no mariage and therevpon it is that no Doctor can be alleaged which alloweth it for mariage if Priests or such professed Monkes and Nunnes do marrie But the sole vow of virginitie and of widowhood is none of those two and therfore but a simple vow and therefore to marrie after it although it be a great mortall sinne yet the mariage holdeth So saith Epiphanius and so say we as some widowes in England hauing taken the mantle and the ring and marrying afterwards can beare vs witnesse whose mariage we haue allowed of though they may not vse it so fréely without iust dispensation as other maried Folke and as their husbandes may because of their vow and cured them by penance reconciliation altogether as Epiphanius here witnesseth of the Church in his time Hie. ad Demetriad tom 1. So is it likewise of the simple vow of virginitie that S. Hierome speaketh saying The name of certayne virgins which behaue them selues not well doth slaunder the holy purpose of virgins and the glory of the heauenly and angelike familie To whoÌ„ must be playnly said vt aut nubant that either they marrie if they can not conteine or els conteine suing to God to giue them strength if they will not marrie We say the same to the same and generally to all others which of two sinnes wil nedes commit one counsayling them rather to commit the lesser then the greater As for example to say that they will come to your schismatical and Heretical seruice when the Commissioners require no more rather then to come vnto it in déede not omitting to tell them withal that they should neither so much as say they wil come because that also is a sinne and a mortall sinne as Epiphanius told those virgins that their mariage also is sinne v. About the Real presence and Transubstantiation About the blessed viuificall Sacrament of the Altar you alleage one Doctor against the Real presence and thrée others agaynst Transubstantiation Pur. 326. It was not the beleefe of S. Augustine nor of any other in that time you say that the Sacrament is the naturall body and bloud of Christ As though it were the mysticall body of Christ which is his Church Vnlesse you finde more then these two his naturall body and his mysticall body Or as though it were not his naturall body which was the morow after his Supper to dye for vs and his naturall bloud which was to be shedde for vs. When will you euer admit any text for plaine and euident Scripture standing so obstinately against these most cléere woords of Christ This is my Body that is geuen and broken for you Luc. 22.1 Cor 11. This is my bloud Mat. 26. Mar. 14. that is shedde for you and for many Luc. 22. Mat. 26. Mar. 14. And what a grosse blindnes is this considering the infinit difference betwene bread and Christ to thinke that being in S. Augustines time taken for bread it could afterward in all Christendome be taken for Christ himselfe and that without all contradiction wheras also at this time you the Sacramentaries could not chaunge the doctrine of it from Christ to bread but heauen and earth cryeth out against you for it not the Catholikes alone but also the Lutherans But S. Augustine forsooth saith Pur. 3â—8 Non hoc corpus quod videtis manducaturi estis c. I will recite the whole circumstance that the world may sée your dealing Aug. in Ps 98. I finde
confesse Pur. 426. which decréeth of such Penitents as dye before reconciliation saying Placuit nobis c. 2. Tole c. 12 It pleaseth vs that both the memory of suche may be commended to God in their Churches in the memento of the dead and offerings for their sinnes may be taken by the Priestes Item thré others which you neither would confesse nor could denie to wit the fourth of Carthage whervnto the Toletane doth allude decréeing of the same Penitents 4. Carth. ca. 79. vt memoria eorum orationibus oblationibus commendetur that their memory may be commended both with prayers and with oblations or offerings of their owne and their friends almes and of the Altar 1. Brac. c. 34 35.39 The first Bracarense decréeing of such as kill them selues vt nulla pro illis in oblatione commemoratio fiat neque cum Psalmis ad sepulturam eorum cadauera deducantur That no memorie be made for them in the oblation of the Altar nor their corpses brought with Psalmes to their buriall Simili modo In like maner that vpon Catechumenes dying without the redemptiō of Baptisme through their own fault Dying vnreconciled passing dangerous bicause they were not disposed to leaue as yet their yll liuing for which cause many nowe also in England do deferre reconciliation neque oblationis sanctae commemoratio neque Psallendi impendatur officium should be bestowed neither the memorie of the holy oblation which afore they called commemorationem in oblatione the memorie in the time of the oblation but you could not sée so much neither the office of Psalmes Appoynting moreouer that if any thing by contribution of the faithfull be offered eyther at the Feasts of Martyrs or at the minddayes of the dead the Hebdomadarie haue it not but to auoyde inequalitie and discord it be reserued of one of the Cleargie and once or twise a yere diuided betweene all of the Cleargie Not onely these Councels I say do so clearely make against you but also Vasense and the saide fourth of Carthage which you pretende to haue answered in saying that they are flatly falsified by D. Allen because you thinke that Oblations of the dead and Oblations for the dead are not with them as with D. Allen all one But to sée your wrangling let anye reasonable man conferre the two Canons as well of the fourth of Carthage as also of Vasense which D. Allen doth alleage The one Canon 4. Car. c. 79 95. Vase c. 2.4 béeing the 95. of Carthage and the fourth of Vasense excommunicateth the Executors qui oblationes defunctorum aut negant Ecclesijs aut cum difficultate reddunt Who either denie to the Churches or pay very hardly the Oblations of the dead qui Oblationes defunctorum retinent aut Ecclesijs tradere demorantur Who keepe backe or be slowe in deliuering to the Churches the Oblations of the dead The other Canon béeing the 79 of Carthage and the second of Vasense decréeth of obedient Penitentes dying by chaunce without reconciliation Vt eorum memoria orationibus oblationibus cōmendetur That their memorie be cōmended to God both with prayers and with oblations as also afore was alleaged Horum oblationem recipiendam eorum funera ac deinceps memoriam Ecclesiastico affectu prosequendam c. That their oblation be receiued and on the day of their buriall and afterwards vpon their other minddays the churches affection bestowed vpō them because it is vnreasonable to exclude their cōmemorations out of the healthfull sacrings to whom for their passing preparation to the same mysteries Fortasse nec absolutissimam reconciliationem Sacerdos denegandam putasset The Priest peraduenture would haue thought that neither the most absolute reconciliation should be denied For though to all obedient Penitents at the point of death they gaue both reconciliation and the fruite therof which is the blessed Sacrament of the Altar yet they gaue not to all such full absolution from the residue of their penance in case they recouered as we sée Con. Cart. 4. Can. 76.78 So then these foure Councels are against you besides the two General Councels of Florence and Trent which your Caluinicall spirite contemneth like an Heathen and a Publicane You promise D. Allen saying Pur. 187. Your Prouinciall Councels shal be answered by as good Prouinciall Councels as they are But where be those good Prouinciall Councels of yours I find where you promise agayne afterwarde and say Pur. 277. The Councell Bracharense as afterward I shall more playnly shew doth insinuate that no prayers were made at all for the soules of the departed in their Churche at their burials but onely a remembraunce of them in prayers with thankes giuing and singing of Psalmes For Purgatorie should seeme had not yet trauelled into Spayne But when you come to the place Pur. 426.427 3. Tol. c. 22. you playnely confesse the contrarie to wit a memorie for the dead in that Councell Mary the third Toletan Councell you there produce as for you in that it decréeth Religiosorum omniū corpora cum Psalmis tantūmodo Psallentium vocibus debere ad sepulchra deferri That the Corpses of all Religious at the least if the Bishop can not prohibite it in all Christians be caried to their graues with Psalmes onely without that funebre carmen quod vulgo defunctis cantari solet funerall heathen song which is wont to be song to the dead and with the voyces of the Psalmessingers without that heathen beating themselues or their neighbours or their families on the breastes And to make all sure against any reply you adde If you say this doth not exclude prayers and oblations they adde that it must be thought sufficient that in hope of the Resurrection vpon the Corpses of Christians is bestowed Famulatus diuinorum canticorum the office of the diuine Psalmes For so ought Christian mens bodies throughout the whole world to be buried So then this is your argument In carying the Corpses to their graues they did sing Psalmes Ergo in their Churches they had no prayers nor oblations for the Soules namely in Spayne whereas S. Augustine at the same time saide Aug. de cu. pro mor. ca. 1. 2. Mac. 12. Vniuersae Ecclesiae authoritas in hac consuetudine claret Although no where at all in the olde Scriptures it were read as it is in the bookes of the Machabees that Sacrifice was offered for the dead yet greate is the authoritie of the whole Church which in this custome is cleare where in the prayers of the Priest which are made to our Lorde God at his Altar the commendation also of the dead hath his place But to returne to your reason you might with it proue as well that now also we haue no prayers nor oblations for the dead because we carie the Corpse with Psalmes as also the whole dirige in effect is Psalmes and namely De profundis for the dead because it is a
his foundations of Purgatory though in other places contrarying your selfe after your maner you say It was somewhat risely budded vp in his time yea and throughly finished And to proue this his pretensed doubtfulnes you alleage foure bookes of his Enchir. ad Laur. cap. 69. Ad octo Dulc. quaest q. 1. De fide op ca. 16. and De Ciui Dei li. 21. ca. 26. In al which places he repeateth one saying as D. Allen noted before you answering it moste clearely and shewing against this pretensed vncertayntie of his that not onely in other bookes but in all the same bookes also and almost in the very same chapters Pur. 118. he holdeth as a matter of faith and to be beleeued of all Christian men that the prayers of the liuing do release some of their paynes in the next life And constantly as al other Catholikes euer did coÌ„fesseth that the sinnes or vncleane works of the liuing not duely by penance wyped away in this world must be mended after our death For De Ci Dei these words he hath August de Ciui li. 21. ca. 24. 13 Ench c. 110. Ad Dulcit q 2. Tales constat ante Iudicij diem per poenas temporales quas eorum spiritus patiuntur purgatos c. It is certayne that suche men beeing purged before domesday by temporall paynes which their soules do suffer shall not after the resurrection be committed to the torments of the euerlasting fire And a litle after Temporali supplicio ac sanctorum orationibus mundatos being clensed by temporal torment and prayers of the holy ones Which declaration of D. Allens was so euident that your selfe are compelled to say Pur. 110.196 Aug. ciu li. 20. c. 25. li. 21. c. 13.24 Pur. 121. Howbeit 21. booke c. 13. of the same work De ci dei he coÌ„cludeth very clerely and that vpon the texts Mal. 3. Esa 4. Mat. 12. that some suffer teÌ„porall payns after this life This may not be denied And yet that in the same bookes he was vncertaine you haue so playne words that you suppose D. Allen neuer read the places in Augustines owne bookes but onely receiued his notes of some elder Papists that had speÌ„t more time in gathering them but had not such audacitie to vtter them as M Allen. Who but you could or would for shame of heauen earth set such a face vpoÌ„ a matter so cleare of it selfe and so confessed of your selfe But which are those so playne words Ench. c. 69.68 Nonnullos fideles per ignem quendam purgatorium quanto magis minusue bona pereuntia dilexerunt tanto tardius citiusque saluari Some of the faithful after this life to be saued so much later or sooner by a certaine Purgatory fire as the more or lesse they loued transitory goods but yet hauing Christ in their heart for the foundation that is so as they preferred nothing before him but were ready to forsake all rather then him This to be so is not vncredible Et vtrum ita sit quaeri potest aut inueniri aut latere And whether it be so in deede it may be searched and by search either found or not found These are the plaine wordes in which to replye to D. Allens answere you will néedes haue S. Augustine so often in one booke and almost in one Chapter to be grossely contrary to him selfe one while certaine another while vncertaine of one and the selfe same thing But D. Allens answere according to S. Augustines plaine wordes in these chapters also as well as in the others is as it was that he speaketh not still of one thing or of one Purgatorie fire but of two diuerse The one Purgatorie fire is to punish so to purge by temporall paines the soules for there sinnes for their euill life though not so euill vt misericordia habeantur indigni that they may be thought vnworthy of mercy Of this Purgatory S. Augustine with all the faithfull of all ages holdeth him selfe â—o certaine The other Purgatorie fire is as the fire of Tribulation in this life for the most perfit also to passe through euen them whose life was talis in bono vt ista non requirat so good that they neede not to be releeued with the prayers of the Church and therfore not to punish sinne as now we speak of it but only to weare out by litle and litle rerum secularium quamuis licitè concessarum c. suche affections to worldly lawfull things as to wife c. that without griefe of mind he can not part from them so as the other can which builded golde siluer and pearles whose worke therfore is not burned vp quia non ea dilexit quorum amissione crucietur because he did not loue those things with the losse wherof to be tormented And of this Purgatorie S. Augustine was vncertaine as it is in dede very doubtfull saith D. Allen to this day also Pur. 119. not onely because we know not whether such worldly lawfull affections do remayne in the Elect soules departed but also because nothing but sinne and the debt of sinne séemeth to endaunger the soule to any payne whether it be poena sensus or onely poena damni Whervpon to say the truth it séemeth to me more probable although S. Augustine inclined more to the other side that there is not any suche Purgatory but rather that after full penance for sinne or full pardon of it the soule goeth without all delay straight to heauen And so I haue shewed plainly what S. Augustine was certain of and what he was vncertaine of thinking good withall to admonish the Reader that although for more perspicuitie I name two Purgatories out of S. Augustine yet I meane but one purgatory with two diuers operations as it is but one fire of tribulation in this life though it haue those two operations to purge sinne with punishment and to purge worldly lawfull affections with griefe of minde when we must in persecution depart from our beloued That also Purgatorie fire after this life is for the first of these operations it is certayne Whether it be also for the other it is vncertayne Hithervnto perteineth that also where you say Pur. 317. M. Allen affirmeth that S. Augustine De cura pro mortuis agenda neuer doubteth but intercession may be made vnto the Saintes for the dead and oppose to his affirming cap. 5. of the same booke Cum ergo mater fidelis c. Therfore when the faithful mother desired of Paulinus Bishop of Nola to haue her sonnes body laide in the Martyrs Church Si quidem credidit eius animam meritis Martyris adiuuari hoc quod ita credidit supplicatio quaedaÌ„ fuit If she thought his soule to be holpen with the Martyrs merites this her thinking was a certaine supplication haec profuit siquid prosuit and this supplication profited if any thing profited Here Augustine you say doubteth whether supplications to the
hence there is now no place of penance no effect of satisfaction Here life is either lost or saued Here euerlasting saluation is procured by the worshipping of one God and by the fruitfulnes of faith This forsooth is that which can not stande with the Papists opinion of Purgatory By this forsooth appereth what Cyprians iudgement was of Purgatory and the effect of satisfaction after this life And againe because exhorting there Demetrianus him selfe Proconsul of Africa to repeÌ„tance which had bene so you say deceitfully Chaunging as though he now were conuerted for that you should haue said which presently was a wicked man and a persecutor of the Christians he saith to him Tu sub ipso licet exitu vitae temporalis occasu c. Do thou although it be but a litle before thy end and setting of this temporall life pray for thy sinnes to the God which is the one and true God Confessionem fidem agnitionis eius implores Do thou humbly call for confession and faith of acknowledging him he alludeth to the ceremonie quid petis Fidem Venia coÌ„fitenti datur credenti indulgentia salutaris de diuina pietate conceditur Pardon is giuen to him that confesseth and healthfull forgiuenes is graunted by Gods goodnes to him that beleeueth Et ad immortalitatem sub ipsa morte transitur and euen at the poynt of death is passage to immortalitie Because Christ doth quicken him that is mortall by the heauenly regeneration viuificat mortalem regeneratione coelesti This which is so expresly written of the Infidels in hell and of Baptisme to pretend it as you do to be written of the faithfull in Purgatory and of penance after Baptisme argueth playnly that either you sawe not the place in S. Cyprian or rather that séeing you would not sée Of the same sort it is that Pur. 82. Cyp. de Lapsis where S. Cyprian speaketh of Deniers of Christ in persecution which would not afterward come to the Priestes to confession and saith Euery one I beseeche you brethren confesse his sinne whilest yet he that sinned is in this world whilest his confession may be receiued whilest satisfaction and remission facta per Sacerdotes made by the authoritie of the Priestes is acceptable with our Lord you gather therevpon and say If men can not satisfie nor Priest remit but whilest men are in this life then farewell satisfaction for the dead and Purgatory As though we hold that they which will not submit them selues to the Priestes in this life may be holpen after their death Or that confession may be made by the dead and satisfaction enioyned them and that béeing done absolution giuen them by the Priestes Againe it is of the same sorte which you alleage out of S. Chrysostome where first you confesse that he holdeth expresly Pur. 2â—1 prayers to profite the dead and alleageth Scripture for it your words I recited in cap. 3. and that notwithstanding say afterward Otherwise when he iudged vprightly according to the Scripture his words sounde cleane contrarie to the opinion of Purgatory and works of other men to be meritorious for the dead as in the very next Homily being the 42. in 1. Cor. Quapropter oro c. What a worthy S. Chrysostome was euery kinde of way I néede not to saye I can admire him I am not able to commend him sufficiently But what a base opinion haue you of him as also of so many others his peares to think him so grosse Caluins intolerable light hath marred Fulkes eyes to speake cleane contrarie to him selfe and that vpon one Epistle yea in the very next Homily You do herein nothing els but iustifie my saying in the beginning of this chapter that you can not in déede shew the Doctors to be for you against vs but that in déede you coÌ„fesse them to be with vs against you and pretend onely that they be agaynst vs in so much as they be pretensiuely against them selues But why did you not aswell say that D. Allen him selfe is against vs in that in the seuenth chapter of his second booke he sheweth Pur. 271. That the benefite of prayer almes apperteineth not to such as dye in mortall sinne For what els doth S. Chrysostome say in that long allegation of yours but that no friend no iust shall helpe him that dyeth in mortal sinne either committing euill that he ought to refrayne or omitting good that he ought to atchieue beséeching them therefore to conuert and amend and to get agaynst they dye good words of their owne to trust in before that Iudge Pur. 112. Ambro. in Psal 40. Likewise of S. Ambrose you confessed cap. 3. pag. 16. Ambrose in deede alloweth prayer for the dead And yet because he saith Bene addidit in terra quia nisi hic mundatus fuerit ibi mundus esse non poterit The Prophet did well to adde on earth for if he be not clensed here he can not be clensed from his mortall sinnes But the true translation is he can not be cleane there neither from his veniall sinnes though from them he maye be clensed there as also from the temporall debte of his remitted mortall sinnes yet I saye by these words it is playne inough with you that Ambrose allowed no purging after this life One place more or two you alleage more out of the same Doctor Pur. 106. with this note therevpon Thus saith Ambrose playnely in this place whatsoeuer he speaketh allegorically of the Fyerie sworde in other places as in Psal 118. Ser. 20. and in Psal 65. by occasion of which two places you graunt not long after that the Old writers opinion was Pur. 132. that all men were they neuer so iust passed through that fire into Paradise and were purified thereby because they ascribed to Purgatory fire those two operations the one whereof S. Augustine we as I said erewhile do doubt of All this notwithstanding the same Ambrose you say vpon Rom. 5. ouerthroweth Purgatorie in that it followeth of his words there Pur. 105. that no man feeleth paine after this life but he that shal feele it eternally And surely to the same effect he speaketh in his booke De bono mortis you say onely because cap. 4. where he concludeth that death in euery respect is good yea although a man haue liued yll and shall after death abye for it for also in that case non mors malum sed vita Not his death but his life was euill among others this cause he rendreth quia deteriorem statum non efficit sed qualem in singulis inuenerit talem iudicio futoro reseruat because it maketh not the yll state worse but such state as it findeth in euery one suche it reserueth to the iudgement to come Now who saith that Purgatory after death altereth the state of the euill to worse yea or also that it promoteth the state of the good to better
Euery mans state we saye both is at his death and shal be at domesday according to his merites in his life Neither he that is clensed in Purgatory hath his merites either multiplied or amplified thereby but onely his veniall sinnes and temporall debtes taken away In the former place his words are these Although Abraham were in hell or in the inferior partes yet he was seuered with a long space betweene so that there was an huge chaos inter iustos peccatores quanto magis impios Betweene the iust and the Catholike sinners how much more the impious Heretikes Vt iustis esset refrigerium peccatoribus aestus impijs vero ardor That to the iust might be ease and heate as it were of the sunne to the sinners but fierie heate to the impious vt ante iudicium quo vnusquisque dignus esset non lateret that which eche sort were worthy of might before the iudgement be partly knowen Now how you can inferre of these words that no man feeleth payne after this life although S. Ambrose him selfe say it expresly in other places but he that shall feele it eternally I sée not Vnlesse perhappes you would binde him to yéelde a reason of Purgatory paynes withall when he yéelded a reason of Abrahams bosome and of the damned Soules hell or els haue him pronounced guiltie of contradiction and Purgatorie by your argument ab authoritate negatiuè quite subuerted From this saying of S. Ambrose we might well passe to the sayings of other Doctors alleaged agaynst Limbus patrum a friend of Purgatories but onely that we must stay a litle while for your pleasure Pur. 142.143 Emis ho. 3. de Epipha Ber. in vita Humberti with Eusebius Emissenus though him you take for a counterfaite and S. Bernard Because these two set foorth very terribly but truly the paynes of Purgatorie therfore with you the one sheweth him selfe an vtter enemie to the release of the same and the other denieth the remedie or remission of them As if you would say that the holy Scripture also where it preacheth Gods iustice denieth his mercy though in other places it preach his mercy no lesse For sée you not S. Bernard as earnest also for the remedie of those paynes where D. Allen alleageth him calling your friends the Apostolicie of his time Pur. 420. Ber. Ser. 66 in Cantica miscreants and doggs for laughing vs to skorne saith Bernard that we baptize infants that we pray for the dead that we require the helpe of the holy Saintes In so much that your self also confesse in another place saying Bernard is of opinion that sinnes not remitted in this world Pur. 194. may be remitted in the world to come Whether Purgatory be only for Veniall sinnes One other litle stay we must make about S. Augustines iudgement Pur. 122.448 being this as you say That Purgatory serueth to purge none but very small and light offences Wheras D. Allen saith that it is for great faultes also which by penance are made small alleaging for it this playne place Quaedam enim peccata sunt quae sunt mortalia Pur. 128. August de ver fal Poen ca. 18. in paenitentia fiunt venialia non tamen statim sanata For there be certaine sinnes which be mortall and in penance be made veniall but not straight healed As oftentimes certen sick persons would dye but for Phisick yet are not straight healed Lanquet victurus qui prius erat moriturus Feeble he is though now to liue and not to dye as before And therefore although one truely conuerted at the poynt of death from his wickednes nequitia c. shall be saued Yet we do not promise him that he shall escape all payne Nam prius purgandus est igne purgationis qui in aliud seculum distulit fructum conuersionis for he must first be purged with the fire of Purgatorie who in this world conuerted but deferred the fruite of conuersion to the other world Studeat ergo quilibet sic delicta corrigere vt post mortem non oporteat talem poenam tolerare Therfore let euery one labour so to amend his sinnes also after his conuersion because he is now as the sicke person past daunger of death but not healed as yet that after death he suffer not such passing grieuous payne You tooke not the paynes to take the booke and reade the place and therefore blindly you say that this Doctors words are playnly of light and smal offences and not of heinous and great offences euen also against your owne eyes that sawe the word Mortalia And againe that the manifest meaning of his words is not of a mortall sinne forgiuen as though he said that it become a veniall trespasse but that a mortall sinne may be pardoned Whereas he speaketh so manifestly of a mortall sinne after penance as of a mortall disease after Phisicke the daunger of soule death in the one as of bodily death in the other béeing now past but the healing behinde and therefore also daunger of Purgatory payne for it behind D. Allen alleageth for the same also Enchir. cap. 71. where S. Augustine affirmeth that Et illa peccata a quibus vita Fidelium sceleratè etiam gesta sed poenitendo in melius mutata discedit Also those sinnes in the which the faithfull haue wickedly lyued but nowe by penance lefte them chaunging their liues to better are after taken away by the same remedies as minima quotidiana peccata breuia leuiaque peccata the least and daily the short and light sinnes to wit among other remedies by the Pater noster which is the dayly prayer of the faithfull Which also in the next world he admitteth ca. 69. and 70. of the said Infanda crimina qualia qui agunt regnum dei non possidebunt Gal. 5. heinous crimes which depriue the parties of Gods kingdome Si conuenienter poenitentibus eadem crimina remittantur If the same crimes be forgiuen them in the Church vpon their due penance then he graunteth I say that such persons also may be saued by Purgatory fire after this life and not they onely that dye with Veniall sinnes This D. Allen there alleageth briefly and you say neuer a word vnto it Pur. 120. Onely you snatch those words which he alleageth among others out of another place to another purpose Illo enim transitorio igne non capitalia Au. Ser. 41. de Sanctis 1. Cor. 3. sed minuta peccata purgantur By that transitorie fire whereof the Apostle saith He shal be saued by fire are purged not mortall but light offences neither considering that he speaketh of purging culpam the fault it selfe for he speaketh against them that continue still in cōmitting mortall sinnes and deceiue them selues with false securitie while they think that peccate ipsa those sinnes may be purged by the transitorie fire them selues afterwards come to euerlasting life Nor knowing that he there also very
you gather that the body of Christ which he saith was the Sacrifice that was offered was not the naturall body of Christ but his mysticall body because he saith the Martyrs and it were all one He saith not so not that they are all one or the same but that they are of the mysticall body of Christ which whole mystical body is offered there to God in the offering of his naturall body for there are speciall memories of euery sort of the Saintes in heauen of the Soules in Purgatory of the Catholiks in earth The bread wine also in which his said naturall body and bloud are consecrated are such things a Au tract 26. in Ioan. Quae in vnum rediguntur ex multis as of many cornes and grapes are brought into one loafe and cup Water also b Cyp. epi. 63. to signifie vs againe béeing mingled with the wine Herevpon he saith in the same c Aug. ciu li. 10. c. 6.20 worke that in the Sacrament of the Altar it is shewed to the Church that in the oblation which she doth offer her selfe is offered And that aswell she by him as he by her is vsually offered And therefore it can not be thought that this naturall body there offered is offered to the Martyrs or to the Church as the Paganes and Manichées did charge the Christian Catholikes vpon their offering of that naturall body ouer the shrines of Martyrs You might therefore haue gathered as well that the Body which he offered vpon the Crosse was not his naturall body but his mysticall body the Church because in offering it there for his Church he offered his Church to God with it Reade De Ciu. li. 10. ca. 6. and there you shall sée that he sheweth how the workes of mercie are a sacrifice item a person consecrated to God Item our body Item our soule Item tota ipsa redempta Ciuitas hoc est congregatio societasque sanctorum the whole redeemed Citie it selfe that is the congregation and societie of the holy which he calleth vniuersale sacrificium An vniuersall Sacrifice And that after all these metaphorical Sacrifices he distinguisheth from them all not onely the Sacrifice of the Crosse but also the Sacrifice of the Altar which you confounde with that vniuersall Sacrifice not considering that he so often calleth it the one and the singuler Sacrifice of the Christians Besides these Pur. 361.293 you haue two places out of Tertullian and Ireneus The former sheweth you say what was the chiefest Sacrifice that they did offer to wit Prayer The other likewise sheweth that by the name of the Sacrifice of the Church he meaneth not the Sacrifice of the Masse which they call propitiatorie for the sinnes of the quicke and the dead but the Sacrifice of thankesgeuing and prayers Tertul. in Apol. Tertullian telleth there the Gentiles in defence of the Christians first what thinges they prayed for in the Canon of the Masse to wit for their Romane Empire among other thinges the place goeth here before cap. 9. pag. 197. Then why not to their Goddes Haec ab alio orare nō possum quā c. These thinges I cannot praye for of any other but of whom I knowe that I shall obteyne them quoniam et ipse est qui solus praestat c. For both he it is who onely doth geue them and I am he to whom is due to obtayne being his seruant which worship him onely Then also why not with their blood Sacrifices of fat calues c. qui ei offero opimam et maiorem hostiam quam ipse mandauit orationem de carne pudica de anima innocente de spiritu sancto profatam which offer to him a fat and greater host that which he himselfe commaunded to wit prayer pronounced out of a chast body out of an innocent soule out of an holy spirite Where in the name of that Prayer he comprehendeth all that is saide and done in the Masse of the faithfull which to this day also the Priest therefore beginneth saying vnto vs after the Gospell Dominus vobiscum Oremus Let vs pray and immediatly goeth to the bread and wine Hier. epist ad Euagriū c. Because this pure Sacrifice is made celebrated with Prayer ad Presbyterorum preces Christi corpus sanguisue conficitur Christes body and bloud is made by the Priestes prayers saith S. Hierome and because euen the old house of those Leuiticall bloud Sacrifices also was called Mat. 21. Isa 56. Domus orationis The house of prayer And as Tertullian setteth out agaynst the impure Paganes the puritie of the Church in her Sacrifice so doth S. Irenée set out the same against the Iewes and Heretikes Iren. li. 4. cap. 34. Mala. 1. to shewe that the pure Sacrifice in Malachie is offered by her alone quoniam cum simplicitate Ecclesia offert Because the Church offreth with simplicitie of faith hope and charitie whereas the Iewes hands are now full of bloud and all the Synagogues of those olde Heretikes helde the bread and wine to be of an yll creation For this cause he telleth them that the conscience of him that doth offer beeing pure doth sanctifie the Sacrifice and causeth God to accept it as comming from a friend And that the Sacrifices do not sanctifie a man Non enim indiget Sacrificio Deus for God doth not neede a Sacrifice so as néede should make him glad of it as it maketh a begger glad whether the giuer be a friend or a foe And do not we say the same Can any Heretike pleade as vpon our verdite that he pleaseth God in offering to him bread or wine yea or also the body it selfe and bloud of Christ so as all Priestes doe in their Caluinicall Communion no lesse then we doe in the Masse And yet the Sacrifice of it selfe is suche as pleaseth God and sanctifieth the offerer but for his owne indisposition Like as Baptisme of it selfe would cleanse the conscience Heb. 9.10 though oftentimes it doth not for fault in the receiuers of it For it is not the worthines of men but the worthines of Christ whereof the owne and proper vertue of his Sacramentes and of his Sacrifice both of the Altar and of the Crosse dependeth Motiue 35. 25. Monkes My 25. Demaund noteth that these Heretikes haue cutte off from the Church her best and perfectest member to wit Monkes and Nunnes who were so common in the Primitiue Churche that to bring all to the fashion of the Primitiue Church as they pretende they shoulde haue made all to be Monkes rather then none to be Monkes And Fulke doth nothing here but helpe our side in that he * Ar. 29.85 Pur. 87.297.250 Hic cap. 9. often reiecteth Monkes Heremites Anachorites Canons Fryers Nunnes graunting them no place in the Churche of Christe partely by an argument ab authoritate Ephes 4. negatiuè whiche I aunswered here in the 24. Demaunde treating of Bishoppes Priestes and
can doubt but this present plague and thraldome of the Gréekes is fallen vpon them and the like or worse to fall vpon the like for their departing from the Church of Rome as it was foretolde them full often though you counte it false and vnreasonable so to say And why Pur. 396. because the Affricanes were plagued and subuerted for other sinnes So substantiall are your reasons As if you would say Ten Tribes were not subuerted for their Schisme because the two Tribes were subuerted for other sinnes 29. Traditions Motiue 9. The 29. Demaund mentioneth that the Apostles left to the Church not Onely Scripture as Fulke would proue by the Scriptures and Fathers here cap. 8. pag. 100. to 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. which all I haue aunswered but also vnwritten Traditions wherof no one is against vs and many of them so directly against the Protestants that although he cōfesse them as for exāple the memorie of the dead in the Canon of the Masse to haue the most approued Fathers testimonie to be Traditions Apostolike here cap. 3. pag. 15. to 20. yet he is fayne to denie that eyther they or any Traditions at al be of the Apostle ca. 7. pa. 80. to 89. So as neuer did the Catholikes I say in this Demaund but onely Heretikes Pur. 383.409.412 But against this I find that he alleageth a saying of S. Irene as though by his iudgement we rather be Valentinian Heretikes who with the Fathers here cap. 3. 7. pag. 19. 84. besides Scripture do holde with Tradition of vnwritten verities And Lord how he croweth against D. Allen for alleaging the same saying against the Protestantes vpon their denying of the Machabées not considering that by S. Irenée there they no more be Heretikes who will haue Tradition then they who wil haue Scripture Iren. li. 3. ca. 2.3 S. Irenée him selfe as all Catholikes will haue both But those old Heretikes would in effect saith he haue neither Neque Scripturis iam neque Traditioni consentire c. They would yeeld neither to the Scriptures nor to Tradition For whē they be confuted out of the Scriptures they turne to accuse the Scriptures thē selues as though they be corrupted nor be not Canonicall and that they be ambiguous and that out of them can not be found the sincere trueth by such as know not the Tradition because that was not deliuered by writings but a certayne mingle mangle and the sincere truth by word of mouth Well then saith the Catholike let vs hardly try by Tradition What do they then they say that the Apostles either them selues knew not all things or that they taught their Successors of one sort in open place and these mens Patriarches in secret of another sort Cum autem ad eam iterum Traditionem c. And when againe to that Tradition which is from the Apostles which is conserued in the Churches by Successions of the Priestes we prouoke those Heretikes who are aduersaries to Tradition as the former were to Scripture they will say that they beeing wyser then not onely the Priestes but also the Apostles haue found the sincere truth Aduersus tales certamen nobis est O dilectissime Against suche we haue to fight O my dearest who as slipery as snakes seeke on euery side to flye What way shall we then take with them Traditionem Apostolorum in toto mundo manifestatam in Ecclesia adest perspicere omnibus qui vera velint audire He that list to heare lyes may séeke to these Heretikes and the secrete Tradition which they pretend But all that will heare the truth may in the Church see the Apostles Tradition whiche was published in the whole world Et habemus annumerare And we can reherse them who were of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in the Churches and their Successors euen vnto vs. Who taught nor knew no such thing as these men dote vpon For if the Apostles had knowen straunge mysteries which they taught the perfect Seorsim latenter ab reliquis apart from the rest and priuilie no doubt they would haue committed them specially to those to whom they committed also the Churches And then because it is to long he saith to rehearse al Successions he reckoneth the Successors of S. Peter and Paule in the greatest and auncientest and knowen to all men in the Romaine Church Whose Tradition which she hath from the Apostles comming euen vnto vs by Successions of Bishops we reporting confundimus omnes eos do confound all Heretikes and Schismatikes Et est plenissima haec ostensio And this is a most full demonstration that it is al one quickening faith which from the Apostles is kept in the Church till now and deliuered in trueth Loe now Syr who hath such yll grace to alleage the Doctors against him selfe For who denieth here cap. 9. pag. 165. the authoritie of suche Scriptures as are Canonized by the Church which himselfe confesseth to be the true Church Who also refuseth the Tradition and saith I say not by those Heretikes pretended but euen of the Apostolike Churches euen of the Romaine Church and not now onely but then also when your selfe do graunt that it was the true Church As for vs we reiect neither the Churches Scriptures nor the Churches Tradition but answere all that you detort to maynteine your Heresies and restore it to the right meaning 30 Their owne Doctors Motiue 16. That the Apostles and all men and things that be of them are against our Protestantes and in no poynt with them against vs it is many wayes shewed by the aforesaid Besides all these I note in the next Demaund also their owne masters and felowes namely Luther and Caluine to haue condemned them Such leaders hath our miserable Countrey chosen to followe forsaking the sure guydance of Gods Church in which our Forefathers together with the Catholikes of all other Countries so many ages before prospered in earth and atchiued to heauen 31.32.33 Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent In thrée Demaundes following I do shewe that the rules of Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent taught by Vincentius Lirinensis and the other Fathers doe make for vs and against the Protestantes Which is so playne that Fulke is faine to refuse those rules abusing a saying of S. Augustines as it were for Onely Scripture against them here cap. 7. pag. 80. and cap. 9. pag. 180. Motiue 10.11.28 Arti. 15.26 34. Authoritie The Protestantes finding the Primitiue Church whiche they dare not denie but it was the true Church here cap. 2. to be in many poyntes so playnly against them that they must confesse it them selues as here cap. 3. do hold that the true Church may erre vniuersally and also did erre cap. 3.4 And therefore make their exception against it also cap. 7. pa. 89. And that with pretence of Scripture to warrant their so doing cap. 8. pag. 117. vnto which I haue fully answered Herevpon in my 34. Dem. I affirme
that the vniuersall Churches authoritie was alwayes counted so irrefragable that she would be and was beléeued vppon her onely word in all matters before she yéelded or we could conceiue the reasons of her doctrine And that S. Augustine wrote a booke vpon this against the Manichées which he called De vtilitate credendi Of the vtilitie of beléeuing first before you vnderstand Aug. retra li. 1. ca. 14. Because his friend Honoratus béeing a Manichée did irride in the discipline of the Catholike faith quod iuberentur homines credere that men were commaunded to beleue and not taught by certentie of the groundes certissima ratione what was true Which to our Doctor Fulke is so strange that of D. Allen saying he taketh it to be the naturall order of a Christian schole Pur. 4.5 he requireth to shew where he learned that methode affirmeth S. Paule Rom. 10. to teach a cōtrary order and calleth it a blind faith which must be thrust vpon mens consciences to be accepted before they see what ground it hath Whereas S. Paule doth not say that men must vnderstand the groundes of euery matter before they beléeue for that were contrary to his owne doing who did not alwayes to all at the first speake wisedome 1. Cor. 2. but that they must heare first the Churches preaching to know which be the articles before they can beléeue them And that is it which we say that hearing what the Church teacheth they may be bold to beleue it forthwith although they heare not or can not attaine to the groundes euen as they which heard Christ him selfe and his Apostles after him might boldly beléeue them As he also did worke those Myracles in the beginning to commend his own authoritie credite and thereby to draw vnto him a multitude which multitude should alwayes after him moue the worlde to beleeue as Myracles did at the first Au. de vtil cred ca. 13. S. Augustine in that booke deduceth this at large and concludeth Rectè igitur Catholicae disciplinae maiestate institutum est vt accedentibus ad Religionem fides persuadeatur ante omnia It is rightly therefore apoynted by the maiestie of the Catholike Churches Schole that they which come to Religion be first and formost moued or perswaded by certayne generall motiues to beleeue Wherefore I say that the Protestantes can not possibly be the Church because they do renounce the claime of suche authoritie I say also that neyther they nor no other secte in the world is so happy sure of their faith as we be hauing a Schoole and Masters that we may boldly beléeue in all thinges because Christ hath geuen them the Spirite of truth Ioan. 14. and to vs also accordingly sayth D. Allen the spirite of obedience But therunto Fulke answereth as more at large here cap. 7. pag. 90. That also the Protestantes wil be ruled by their Superiours What simply Ar. 58. so farre as their Superiours are ruled by Gods word Any other submission they allowe not O humble submission of yours who will ouerrule your Superiours as it were by Gods word and O worthy authoritie of theirs who by your owne cōfession may swarue from the truth of Gods word But howsoeuer the Protestantes are affected to their Superiours the Greeke Church with the Moschouites and Russianes in doubtes wil be ruled by their Patriarche of Constantinople and so will the rest of the Orientall Churches by their chiefe Patriarches Bishops though they be not of our felowship and Catholike communion So you say But if you knewe the storie of the Florentine Councell wherein their Patriarches agréed with the Catholike Latines in all thinges and yet could not for all that reduce their Countries from Schisme you would not so say Ar. 83.84 And as towching your grammaticatiō vpon the article of our Créed I beleeue the H. Catholike Church I haue shewed plainly cap 8. pag. 138 out of antiquitie that the meaning of it is according to this presēt demaund I beleue in the H. Catholike Church And therefore you erre where you say To beleeue all and euery thing that the Catholike Church by commō consent doth maintayne is no article of our faith And is not this a goodly interpretation which you bring We say confesse against all Heretikes and Schismatikes I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church or that God hath an Vniuersall Congregation For what Heretike and Scismatike may not say the same And what Catholike may not also cōfesse that there is a Lutherane Church The meaning of the Créede is as I haue sayd I beléeue that to be the true Church whose name is Catholike as in the Articles afore going I beléeue that Christ which is named Iesus and that God who is the Creator and I beléeue all which the same Church doth bid me to beléeue as being the mouth of the Holy Ghost and by her being the communion or company of the Holy so that none be Holy which do not cōmunicate with her I beléeue that we haue remission of our sinnes in the Sacramentes and shall haue Resurrection of our bodies in glorie and for euer afterwardes in Soule and Bodye together lyfe euerlasting All which is the worke of our Sanctification and appropriated in the Créede to the Holy Ghost as our redemption to the Sonne and Creation to the Father In calling this a foolish and false interpretation you do but vtter your ignorance in the auncient Doctors They are the boyes that you count worthy to haue many stripes for their construing it otherwise then thus I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church Suppose the Apostles had said Credo S. Romanam Ecclesiam how would you haue construed it not I beleue that there is a Romane church for so much you may confesse being yet a Protestant but I beleeue the Romane Church And what should that meane but as I haue here sayd out of the Fathers As also against all Apocriphalles to say Credo Sanctas Scripturas Canonicas I beleeue the H. Canonicall Scriptures Item against Manicheus Montanus Luther and all other false-named Apostles or Euangelists of Christ to say Credo S S. Duodecim Apostolos Credo S S. quatuor Euangelistas I beleeue the H. Twelue Apostles I beleeue the H. Fower Euangelistes 35 Vnitie Motiue 27. Arti 15.17 Well of this irrefragable authoritie of Gods Church ouer vs and of our humble submission againe and affection vnto it procedeth I say in my next Demaund our inseperable vnitie Aug. cōtra Epi. Fund ca. 4. Ioan. 17. whiche S. Augustine in his Motiues to the Manichies calleth Confentionem Populorum atque Gentium Consenting of Peoples and Nations in one Which Christ in his prayer for it accompteth a most iust motiue for the world to beleeue in him But Fulke notwithstanding because his Protestantes haue it not Ar. 93. nor can not possibly atteyne vnto it telleth vs that also the Mahometistes and Turkes haue their
of Iamnia for the which God suffered c 2. Mac. 12. ver 32.40 thē to be ouerthrowen after Pentecost by the souldiers of Gorgias And then Iudas sent that money to those vnspotted Priests at Ierusalem to offer Sacrifice for their sinne The chiefe of which Priests in the absence of Iudas him self were his brethren Ionathas and Simon and not Menelaus nor any of those other Apostataes You might haue learned by those bookes that the succession of the true Pontifices or High Priestes for that time was this a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Onias e 1. Mac. 2. ver 1.70 Mathathias f 1. M. 3. v. 1. 1. M. 9. v. 18 Iudas i Ionathas k Simon And that these others a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Iason b 2. Mac. 4. v. 24.29 2. Ma. 13. Menelaus c 2. Ma. 4. ver 29.41 Lysimachus g Alcimus were but Antipontifices or false vsurpers against these to wit a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Iason the author of the Apostasie from the Law against his brother Onias and secondly Menelaus against the same a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Onias and thirdly Lysimachus brother to Menelaus After the Apostasie thus begun that liuely Image of Antichrist king d 1. Mac. 1. 2. M. 5. v. 11 Antiochus Epiphanes taketh Ierusalem martyreth the Law-kéepers finally setteth vp in the Temple the abhomination of Desolation being a Statuee of Iupiter Against him his riseth the foresaide e 1. Mac. 2. ver 1.70 Mathathias and after him his sonne f 1. M. 3. v. 1. 1. M. 9. v. 18 Iudas Machabeus who repurged the Temple the same day thrée yeres that it was polluted Anno 148. And the next yere Antiochus dyeth his sonne Antiochus Eupator succéedeth with him striueth for the kingdome g Demetrius Soter An. 151. to whom fled the wicked of Israel and Alcimus their Capteine qui volebat fieri Sacerdos to complayne of Iudas g 1 Mac. 7. ver 1.5.9 1. Mac. 9. ver 54.55 Which Alcimus dyed of Gods hand the next yere after the killing of Iudas i 1. M. 9. ve 31.10 v. 18.13 v. 23. and could neuer get Ierusalem the Temple but alwayes after the repurgation it continued in the gouernmēt of Iudas and of Ionathas after him and then of his other brother k 1. Mac. 13. v. 8.36.41.43 Simon Of whose Priesthood also High priesthood the text is playne in their seuerall places here noted in the margine I wil recite the wordes that are written of the last * 1. Mac. 13. ver 42. The yere 170. the people of Israel began to write in their Court-rolles and Records thus Anno primo sub Simone Summo Sacerdote magno Duce Principe Iudaeorum The first yere vnder Simon the High Priest the great Duke and Prince of the Iewes Certaine other poyntes of your grosse or rather malicious ignorance in the Scrirtures are about Antichrist As that the Church of Christ should prepare his way or worke his mysterie that his Reuelation or comming should be so soone after the beginning of the Church and so long before the consummation of the world that the Churches flying into the wildernes in his time should be to be driuen out of the sight of the wicked and knowledge of the world that his raigne should last so many hundred yeres that he should be a Succession of certayne men and not one only certaine person that the Church should be come againe out of the wildernes and yet Antichrist raigning still These are the very foundations of your new Lutheran and Caluinistical Gospell and yet no ground at all for them or any one of them in the holy Scriptures of God but onely in the weake sande of your owne blasphemons but bold asseuerations in presence of fooles who haue auerted their vnhappie yeres away from trueth and conuerted them vnto your fables Againe that the body of Christ is not offered to him selfe but thanksgiuing is offered to him for the offering of his body for vs. Pur. 316. Why Syr did not he vpon the Crosse offer his owne body as a man and a priest to him selfe as to God You noted others here cap. 4. pag. 28. and cap. 6. pag. 63. as for saying that it is not lawfull to pray to God the Sonne and there S. Fulgentius tolde you as the Fathers Créede doth that ech person of the blessed indiuiduall Trinitie Simul odoratur conglorificatur Is with other at once adored and conglorified no sacrifice neither that of Christes body whether it be vpon the Crosse or vpon the Altar béeing priuate to one but common to all thrée Agayne that you call it a vayne amplification and fond supposition Pur. 155. to extend the force of Christes death beyond the limits of his will As though it were not of force to worke any whit more then it worketh in acte as to saue so muche as one of them that shall not be saued Contrarie to this expresse Scripture He is the propitiation for our sinnes 1. Ioan. 2. and not for our sinnes onely but also for the sinnes of the whole world And contrarie to this saying of your owne in another place Pur. 34. Concerning the sufficiencie of Christes Redemption there is nothing can be spoken so magnifically but that the worthinesse thereof passeth and excelleth it Againe that to remit sinnes is proper vnto his Diuinitie As though he Pur. 26. that is to say our Sauiour Christ doth not remit sins according to his humanitie also No maruell to sée you denie this power to his ministers when you denie it to the Sonne of man him selfe Mat. 9. The people in the Gospell vnderstood him otherwise when your fathers the Scribes called it a blasphemie for any to remit sinnes but onely God and the people contrariwise séeing his mirable that he wrought to proue his and his Churches doctrine herein did glorifie God for giuing such power to men hominibus Whervpon he when the time was come gaue commission to his Apostles Ioan. 20. saying As my Father sent me I also sende you Whose sinnes you forgiue they are forgiuen them Againe that pestilent doctrine of desperation wherein you say a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 There be sinnes for which the Church ought not to pray euen of men remayning in this life a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 for which it is not lawfull to pray a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 which by the mercy of God are not pardonable for a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 it is false that so long as men are in this world they maye
repent And how many such sinnes are there and which In one place you name two Obstinate and wilfull Apostasie and blasphemie against the holy Ghost after them you adde there c. Therefore looking in other places which be those caetera I finde where you name a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 Contempt of all that preach Christ and repentance of our lothsome life past and saye then the which no vice is more mortall nor farther from forgiuenes In another place you name Saule 1. Sam. 16. for whom Samuel was not heard when he prayed and the obstinate Iewes Ier. 7.11.14 Ezech. 14. for whom Ieremy is often times forbidden to pray and the wicked generally because the Lorde testifieth that if Noah Daniel Iob prayed for them they shuld not be heard And you conclude therevpon Therefore there be sinnes for the which the Church ought not to pray and though she should pray yet she should not be heard euen of men remayning in this life Whereby it appeareth that in summe you say that it is vnlawfull to pray for any wicked person of what sorte soeuer his wickednes be so long as he continueth in his wickednes yea and that a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 it is vnpossible for the wicked but to continue in his wickednes Such holsome doctrine you teach and that so often and so constantly yea also abusing the holy Scriptures for the same not onely in those places before noted 1. Ioan. 5. Mat. 12. Heb. 6. but also thrée places more There is a sinne vnto death for which we ought not to pray and He which sinneth against the holy Ghost shall neuer be forgiuen whosoeuer prayeth for him and There be some which sinne so horribly in this life that it is vnpossible for them to be renewed by repentance We were wont to matche you with your fathers the Nouatians Another old Heresie of the Protestants for denying the authoritie of Priestes to remit eyther all sinnes or some certaine sinnes and reseruing it to God alone But now when you say that some sinnes neither by the mercy of God are pardonable we must néedes confesse that you haue outshot them and therefore wonne the game from them What Acesius a Bishop of the Nouatians said to Constantinus the Emperour in the Nicen Councell yéelding the reason of their Schisme you may sée in Socrates who as a fautor of the Nouatians doth report it for their prayse Soc. li. 1. ca. 7.9 That they who after Baptisme fall into that kind of sinne which the holy Scriptures call Peccatum ad mortem Sinne vnto death ought not to be admitted to receiue the Diuine mysteries as other sinners customably were and are admitted after confession and the Priestes absolution but to exhort them to repentaunce or penance and that they looke for hope of forgiuenes not of the Priestes but of god who both can hath authoritie to forgiue sinnes But with you it is vnlawfull as to pray for them so also to exhort them to repentāce hope of forgiuenes at Gods hands Wel it is inough for a Christian man that it is the heresie of the Nouatians which you hold yea a maiori also and that the Catholike Church did then also practise as now The Protestāts also admit al to their Caluines bread by her Priestes to forgeue all sinnes without any such exception and so to admit all to our Lordes Body Yet for more comfort against all desperation I will answere to your places particularly 1. Ioan. 5. I say therefore that Sinne vnto death for the which S. Iohn saith not as you make him but onely thus Non pro illo dico vt roget quis I bidde not any man to pray for that is when one is dead in Mortall sinne and therefore now damned in hell which I shewed cap. 8. pag. 134. out of the text it selfe If that be not inough with you because you say Pur. 273.274 It is a new exposition and not onely voyde of all auncient authoritie but also hath all the olde writers against it and yet you do not nor can not alleage so much as one I say further Au. in r. 19. de Cor. gra ca. 12. it is S. Augustines exposition in diuers places and namely in his Retractatiōs which is much to be noted where to take away occasions from such Nouatians hauing aforetime written that he thought Peccatum fratris ad mortem The brothers sinne vnto death to be oppugning of the Brotherhood and enuying at grace it selfe he sayth Addendum fuit Si in hac scelerata mentis peruersitate finierit hanc vitam It should haue bene added therevnto If in this wicked peruersenes of minde he finish this life quoniam de quocunque pessimo in hac vita constituto non est vbique desperandum For because no man be he neuer so wicked is to be despeired of so long as he is in this life Nec pro illo inprudenter oratur de quo non desperatur Neither is it vndiscretely done to praye for him who is not despeired of Which is all one almost word for word also with that which D. Allen saith Pur. 274. and you gainesay where you say twise I deny your antecedent Heb. 6.10 Of S. Paules place also I gaue the right sense ca. 10. Dem. 24. He speaketh of Lapsi by name that is of such as deny their faith in persecution Of whom alone the Nouatians Heresie against the Priestes Power of forgeuing sinnes was in the first beginning Soc. li. 4. ca. 23. li. 7. ca. 25. as we reade in Socrates and others Now will you that all such dispaire But the Catholike Church in time of the Nouatians would not no nor the Nouatians them selues would so much as I haue shewed neither would S. Paule He saith Impossibile est eos qui prolapsi sunt reuocari ad paenitentiam It is vnpossible for such denyers to be renouated againe vnto repentance To be renouated againe what is that but all which he there said was done once afore to be done againe eos qui semel sunt illuminati they who once haue bene baptized for that Sacrament the Gréekes call Illumination haue also tasted the heauenly gift and bene made partakers of the holy Ghost in the Sacrament of confirmation Act. 2. ver 33.38 and haue tasted in the Sacrament of the Altar the good word of God and the puissances of the world to come For these Sacramentes were and are ministred adultis together with Baptisme And euen so the Fathers constantly expound this place against the Nouatians that it saieth no more but that a sinner can not be rebaptized can not be renouated ad inchoationem Christi to beginne Christ againe or ad fundamentum paenitentiae c. to the foundation of repenting from dead workes and of beleeuing in God of Baptismes and of Hands imposition They be the Apostles wordes in the same place and to them
a fourefolde offer is made vnto him ¶ Chapter 8. To shew his vanitie in his forsaid rigorous exacting of playne Scriptures and great promises to bring playne Scripture conferring place with place so euidently All the Scriptures that he alleageth are examined and answered The first part Concerning the question of Onely Scripture The second part Concerning the question of the Church 1. Indefinitely Whether the whole Church may erre Whether she may be diuorced Whether she it is that should prepare the way to Antichrist Whether she be alwayes a base companie Whether it be alwayes inuisible yea or so much as then when Antichrist commeth 2. Namely of their Church and of ours Certaine places cōferred diligently together concerning the Defection and Antichrist The third part Concerning the question of Purgatorie 1. Ab authoritate Scripturae negatiuè that is by the Scriptures authoritie negatiuely 2. Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmitiuè First about certaine foundations of Purgatorie and prayer for the dead The distinction of veniall and mortall sinne Whether after sinne remitted paine may remaine Whether Purgatorie follow thereupon Whether in Christ the workes of one may helpe another His cōmon argument of the omnisufficiencie of Christs passiō It is omnisufficient ergo it worketh alwayes to the full It is omnisufficient ergo nothing worketh with it Secondly directly of Purgatorie it selfe prayer for the dead Whether all the elect goe straight to Heauen Afore Christes comming Or at the least since Christes comming Whether the Iudgement may stand with Purgatorie Whether faith hope and Gods will The fourth part Concerning all other questions that he mentioneth About Good workes 1. In generall Whether they do iustifie Whether we haue Freewill 2. In speciall Of prayer Prayer to Saintes Of Fasting About the Sacramentes 1. In generall Whether they be but two Whether they do confer grace 2. In speciall Baptisme the necessitie and effect of it Eucharist Real presence Transubstantiation Mariage of Votaries Of Bishops Priests and Deacons ¶ Chapter 9. To defend that the Doctors as they be confessed to be ours in very many pointes so they be ours in all pointes and the Protestantes in no point All the Doctors sayings that he alleageth are examined and answered The first part Of his Doctors generally 1. His chalenging wordes 2. A generall answer to his challenge declaring that we neede not to answer his Doctors particularly 3. I ioyne with him neuerthelesse particularly The second part Of his Doctors particularly First whether they expound any Scripture against vs. 1. About Antichrist and Babylon 2. About Onely faith 3. About Purgatorie Touching Scripture expounded against it Touching Scriptures for it Whether they say no Scripture to make for it Of certaine perticular textes Secondly whether they geue any other kinde of testimonie against vs. 1. About the Bookes of Machabees Whether somewhat also of other controuersed Scriptures specially 2. About Onely Scripture Where of S. Augustine threefoldly alleaged 3. About certaine Traditions 4. About the Mariage of Votaries 5. About the Real presence And Transubstantiation 6. About the Sacrament of penance Absolution Temporall debt remaining after Absolution Satisfaction Pardons 7. Of Purgatorie Of the Canonicall Memento of oblations and of Sacrifice for the dead practised by the Church Of particular Doctors VVhether S. Augustine doubted of Purgatorie Or denied it Other Doctors about praying for the dead Whether it be onely for Veniall sinnes 8. Of Limbus patrum ¶ Chapter 10. That notwithstanding al which he hath said against D. Allens Articles in his first booke beeing of that matter or also in his other of Purgatorie Euery one of my 51. Demaundes and therefore also euery one of my Motiues likewise euery one of those Articles stādeth in his force euery one I say and much more all of thē to make any man to be a Catholike and not a Protestant 1 Collatio Carthaginensis touching the Church of the Scriptures 2 Building of the Church amid persecution 3 Going out of the Church 4 Rising after the beginning of the Church 5 Cōtradicted of the Church 6 This name Catholikes 7 This name Heretikes 8 This name Protestantes 9 Cōuersion of heathē Natiōs 11 Our Britannie 10.12 Miracles Visions 13.15 Honor of Crosses and Saintes 14.16 Vertue of Crosses and Saintes 17 Exorcismes 18 Destroying of Idolatrie 19 Kings and Emperours 20 In all persecutions 21 Churches 22 Seruice 23 Apish imitation 24 Priesthood and Sacrifice 25 Monkes 26 Fathers 27 Councels 28 See Apostolike 29 Traditions 30 Their owne Doctors 31 Vniuersalitie 32 Antiquitie 33 Consent 34 Authoritie 35 Vnitie 36 Owners and kepers of the Scriptures 37 Stoare house of all truth 38 Old Heresies 39 In old Heretikes Onely 40 They neuer afore now 41 Studying al truth 42 Vnsent 43 Succession 44 Apostolike Church 45 Chaunging 46 Our Auncetors saued theirs damned 47 Communion of Saintes 48 By their fruites 49 All enimies 50 Sure to continue 51 Apostasie ¶ Chapter 11. What grosse contradictions Fulke is fayne to vtter against him selfe while he struggleth against Gods Church and the Doctrine thereof ¶ Chapter 12. A Nosegay of certayne strange flowers piked out of Fulke that they which delight in such a Gardiner may see his handyworke ¶ The .13 Chapter or Conclusion That in his two writings against D. Allen there is yet stuffe ynough to make another Booke as bigge as this to the further discredite of his partie