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A51590 The Catholike scriptvrist, or, The plea of the Roman Catholikes shewing the Scriptures to hold forth the Roman faith in above forty of the chiefe controversies now under debate ... / by I.M. Mumford, J. (James), 1606-1666. 1662 (1662) Wing M3063; ESTC R32100 169,010 338

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this power was allso givē to Thomas Whence appeares that it was not givē only to those who then were present as a grant givē meerly for theyr sakes and to encrease theyr authority but this grace was givē for the sake of all belonging to Christs flock of which flock the farre greater number lived after the times of the Apostles 3. That this text is litterally to be understood as I have interpreted it may be demonstratively prooved by the same argumēt by which we prooved that Text This is my body to be litterally understood P. 12. n. 2. For if the Apostles with the first faith did not deliver this litterall sense but only taughr this power to end with them and that no man after theyr dayes either had power to forgive sins or stood obliged to confesse them then you must say that in some after age some one man began first for allwaies one begins at first to vent a broad these two straunge things first that all Priests had power to forgive sins Secondly that all Christians guilty of sin were bound under paine of damnation to confesse theyr sins to the Priests though they were never so foul or never so secret But shall any one man make me believe that this single mans doctrine so new and so hard could presently without contradiction grow to be so generally received and practized not in one but in all parts of Catholike Christianity And that no history should tell us who this man was where or when he broached this doctrine Or how he could so bewitch all that no man should contradict him or that no one should have grace or witt to say If Priests had this power or if all Christians had this strict obligation surely the Apostles and theyr successours would have made this known and they would have made both Priests and Christians do theyr duty in this kind For they only saying this would have then been enough to have stopped this mans mouth Neither is the Doctrine of Confession or the practise of it so easy to be brought in that it could possibly be thus silently and speedily entertained yea and entertained all the Christian world over without contradiction or opposition even so much as in any one single place for we no where heare of any such contradiction 4. I know after Confession was every where practized that the Novatian Heretiks did oppose it saying that it was a dishonour to God that man should forgive sins But all Catholicks hould this to be an Heresie in them And S. Ambrose sayth to them Luk 1. c. 7. Why should it be more a dishonour to God or be more inconvenient that man should forgive sins by Pennance then by Baptisme seeing it is the Holy Ghost who in both cases doth it by the ministery of the Priests So he In Baptisme the Priest says I Baptise thee that is I wash thee I aske from what surely from sin according to that Act. 22.16 Rise up and be baptized and wash away thy sins I aske again can your Priests or Ministers wash sin away You will answer that they can administer the Sacrament which washeth sin away and so they wash away sin not by theyr own power but as Ministers of Christs Sacraments Iust so each Priest sayeth I absolve thee yet our Priests absolve not by theyr owne power but as Ministers of Christ they administer the Sacramēt of absolution which cancels all sinns Lastly I observe that when Christ did forgive the Paralitick his sins Matth. 9. the multitude was so farr from saying this was a dishonour to God that the multitude glorified God who gave such power unto men v. 8. THE XVII POINT Of the Sacrament of Extreme vnction 1. THe very name of this Sacrament is grown even vnheard of to us here in England who boast so much of the word of God And yet according to the word of God there is not any Sacrament at all which can be more manifestly proved a true Sacrament thē this both in regard of the outwatd or visible signe or in regard of the invisible grace This visible signe is proved evidently to have been instituted by our Saviour because no body but he could annex the guift of of invisible grace to this visible signe to which signe most cleare Scripture doth testifie this grace to be annexed For so we read Iam. 5.14 Is any man sick among you Lett him bring in the Priests of the Church and lett them pray over him annoynting him with oyle in the name of our Lord. Behold the visible outward signe of this Sacrament And in the next words behold the invisible grace annexed there unto And if he be in sins they shall be remitted him Now good Protestant give me leave to aske thee this one question is there any time in which it more imports a man to have so good a warrant as Gods word is for the remission of his sins then in the time of his departure out of this world Behold then here a meanes to obteyne this remission even at this very time and this meanes warranted by the very word of God And yet without any ground at all in Gods word you have rejected a thing so importing all Christians though you found the practice of all Christianity to be cōformable to the words as they sound how doth this stand with your pretence of reforming our errours by the Rule of Scripture you go so flatly contrary to cleare Scripture even in a point of abolishing a Sacrament which was used by all the Catholick Church before your Reformation and having so clear a Text for it and no one single Text against it 2. To take away the force of this Text first in place of Priests you are pleased against all antiquity to read Elders because the Greek word that signifieth Priests in vulgar use signifieth Elders Now this is as ridiculous as if one would say The Bigger of the Cittie in place of saying the Major of the Citty because the word Major signifyeth the Bigger or as if for the like cause you would call a Doctor of Physick a teacher of Phisick wheras a Doctor is well known to signifie such a degree as allso a Major is notoriously known to signify a secular office or dignity in a citty so the name put in Greek for a priest Presbyteros is as notoriously known to signifie a Priest endued with a Priestly order office and function in the Church of God Whence this name is improperly trāslated Elder whē speach is manifestly of Church affaires as here speach is of some Ministery or other at which sins are forgiven 3. I know that those who graunt that here is a command for Counsels you will have none to use annoynting of the sick with true oyle pretend that this was commanded to be done only for obteyning a miraculous Cure A doctrine full of absurdities The first of which is novelty The second is flatt contradiction to the Text expressing the chief effect to be
his pleasure by graunting him a Plenary Indulgence But if our doctrine be truly understood we all require more for gaining pardon even of the least part of the paine still due to our very least sins then Protestants require to the full forgivenes of all the greatest sins that are or can be takē all togeather with all the paine which can be due unto them which is a point exceedingly to be noted it being apparently true 2. For the first thing which we require to gain any part even of the least Indulgence is to have true faith producing true repentance for our sin This alone with Protestants suffices to remit the guilt of all sins whatsoever and all paines due to all sins of which any man can be guilty Doth it do so with us No it is farre from it We say that after this first he must make a true entire Confession Secondly He must moreover stand obliged to make perfect restitution of any thing to which hs is bound Thirdly he stands obliged to performe the Pennance enjoyned him Fourthly if this pennance fall short of satisfying the divine Iustice for the paines yet due to the sins forgiven the sinner stands still obliged to satisfie the divine Iustice by other penall works Now all that we say is that this paine may be pardoned him by Indulgences though not by Indulgences graunted meerly at the Popes pleasure but by Indulgences graunted by him upon sufficient causes which causes he must carefully examine And after the graunt of Indulgences upon due causes you must not thinke any thing is done untill we on our parts have done what is required What is that It is that after such humble Repentance and after such an entire Confession and restitution as I sayd we performe the things expressed in the Graunt of the Indulgence And when all is done the most that we obtaine is to have pardon due to such sins the guilt of which is allready forgiven by our repentance and Confession But the Protestants teach that Faith alone quite frees men for ever of all theyr sins and of all the paine that was due for theyr sins though never so many or so great for after this faith God imputes theyr sins no longer to them 3. Before I prove that the Pope hath power by Indulgences graunted upon just cause to pardon such as duely performe what is enjoyned I further note that the Blood of Christ was of that infinite value that the shedding of one droppe thereof was able to satisfie divine Iustice for all the sins of the world yea of a million of worlds and able to satisfie also for all the paine that could be due for all those sins Wherefore seeing Christ did not shed his blood for us by dropps but by showers hence it followeth evidently that the satisfactions of Christ alone be in a most high degree superaboundant Tell me now is the most precious treasure of all this superaboundancy of satisfactions in order to cancell the paine due to our sins so wholy lost that even the liveing members of Christs body can receive no benefit by this superaboundancy God forbid They be not treasures wrapped up in a napkin Wherefore there must be a power on earth to dispense this rich treasure but yet to dispense it so as becoms a prudent dispenser of the mysteries of God Now who is the highest and chiefest in this dignity of dispensing but he whome we have proved to be the head and chief Pastour of Christs Church to whome it was sayd To thee I will give the Keyes of the Kingdome of heaven Matth. 16. v. 19. Feede my sheepe Io 21. v 15. See the seventh Point 4. That such Indulgences as here described may be graunted I prove first because to give thus the Keyes of the Kingdome of heaven to S. Peter and to his successours as is there proved is to give power of removing any barr that may shutt us out of heaven whether this barr be the sin it selfe which excludes us eternally if not removed or whether it be the guilt of paine for our sins forgiven which excludeth us onely untill such time as due satisfaction is made for that paine Satisfaction may be made for this paine either by our selves performing sufficiently for this effect such satisfactory workes as we spake of Point 9. and 24. Or which may be performed for us by others For as I may pay my debts by my selfe so I may pay them by a friend 5. And the proofe of this is a second proofe of Indulgences out of Col. 1.24 I Paul who now rejoyce in suffering for you and doe accomplish those things which want of the Passion of Christ in my flesh for his body which is the Church Of which Text see what I sayd Point 24. n. 6. whence appeares that notwithstanding the fullnes and superabondance of Christs Passion in it selfe yet in order to our being made compleatly partakers of severall fruits thereof something may be and often is wanting on our part What is this It is the adjoyning of those satisfactory workes which in that Point we have at large shewed Christ to expect at our hands And untill such workes be performed either by us in person or for us in the person of some other we still stand lyable to the paine due to our sins forgiven Now that an other may offer such workes for us is made evident by the text we cited out of S. Paul affirming that he rejoyced in doeing this deed of charity which consisted in suffering that is in doeing a worke most satisfactory for them and by it to make up or to accomplish in his flesh that which was yet behind or as yet wanted of the Passion of Christ that is what was wanting not on Christs part but on the part o his body which is the Church Now as S. Paul as then confirmed in grace had few sins and many sufferings which he could well spare and give away to pay his brothers debt so had S. Iohn Baptist so had our Lady so the Apostles so the Holy Martyrs and many others But above all Christs sufferings alone had an inexhaustable superaboundance which sufferings although Christ by his ordinary course of providence doth not applie to the full cleansing of our sins and of the paine due to our sins unlesse we doe what is required on our part yet he hath left power to his Vicar on earth upon just causes and with due circumspection to impart by way of speciall favour or Indulgence those superabundant satisfactions of Christ and his Saints unto us that by this superabondancy our wants may be supplied if we duely dispose our selves by his grace to be partakers of that great favour 6. A third proofe of Indulgences out of Scripture is to shew S. Paul exercising in the person of Christ this speciall favour or Indulgence towards the incestous Corinthian Whome in his first Epistle to the Corinthians he had given over to Satan by Excommunication But afterwards
moved to be more favorable unto him by his great repentance he doth not onely absolue him from from the sin and from the Excommunication but having enjoyned him a most severe publicke pennance which was to have lasted for a great time before the paines due to his enormious offence would have been fully cancelled he notwithstanding out of the plenitude of his Apostolicall power gratiously pardons the remnant of his pennance Now this pardon would have been no favour nor grace unles at the same time he had pardoned the remnant of the paine still due according to divine Iustice Therefore he declares expressely that he doth it in the power of Christ so he sayth 2. Cor. 2. v. 10. To whom you forgive any thing I forgive allso in the person of Christ that is by Christs commission I give this pardon Christ ratifying the pardon or Indulgence which I give to one so well disposed as I see this delinquent to be 7. And hēce comes in a fourth proof Io. 20. v. 23. Receive the Holy Ghost whose sins you shall remitt they are forgiven and whose sins you shall retaine the are retained Behold power in the Church not only to forgive the remnant of the paine due to the sins forgiven which is all that is done by Indulgences but allso behold a power to forgive the very sin it selfe and consequently to take quite away the very eternity of paine which before was due to the sin See Point 16. Whence you cannot wonder to see power of taking away only temporall paine due to sin when such conditions be fulfilled as wee did expresse here n. 2. THE XXVII POINT That faith alone doth not Iustifie 1. THis is a point point blank against the very prime Point of Protestant Religion as theyr grand Reformers call it who define this faith to be an assured confidence that theyr sins are forgiven them wholy by Christs Passion And yet in all Scripture they will not find one single text to prove that ever yet any one single man was justified by this speciall faith as they call it I say by this speciall Faith which breeds in them an assured confidence that theyr sins in particular are pardoned them for Christs sake Wee aske only for one such Text And yet though the beliefe of this the Protestant beliefe be chiefly grounded in this Point they have not so much as one simple cleere Text so groundles is theyr very ground Look upon the Faith of Abraham who is called the Father of all that believe and see what Faith was counted to him for his righteousnes Rom. 4.3 and you shall find that verse taken out Gen. 15. v. 6. where when God had told him he would multiply his seed like the starres Abraham believed God and he counted it to him for righteousnes Why so For his believing promptly that which God had revealed in a matter so hard to his understanding as is expresly sayd Rom. 4.21.22 Hence I argue thus Here is no mention of his assured confidence that his sins were forgiven him by Christs Passion but here is mention of Iustifying Faith or of Faith counted or imputed to man for righteousnes therefore Iustifying Faith is no such matter as this speciall Faith or confidence How this Faith of Abraham came to Iustify S. Iames tels us that it was by being a Faith effective of good works For he so firmely believed what God had said that he feared not to see that saying made null and voyd though he should offer upon the Altar that very Sonne of his upon whom by name all Gods faire promises seemed grounded For was not Abraham our Father justifyed by works when he had offered Isaac his Son upon the Altar Iam. 2.21 2. Wee say then that Faith alone doth not justify but that Faith working by Charity compleats Iustification Luke 7.47 Many sins are forgiven her because shee loved much So Matth. 22. v. 11. Hee that was called to the marriage Feast and came to it and entred in and sat down could not do this but by faith entring the Church yet because he was not attired in a wedding garment of Charity he was cast out and for his sake it was sayd Many are called but few are chosen 3. S. Paul allso inculcates this 1. Cor. 13.2 If I should have all Faith so that I should move mountaines and have no Charity I am nothing Note the word all Faith Again v. 13. The greater of these three is Charity And again Col. 3.14 But above all things have Charity which is the bond of perfection For Matth. 22. v. 40. On these two Commandements of Charity dependeth the whole Law and the Prophets Yet again Gal. 5.6 Neither Circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision but Faith which worketh by Charity or love Behold that very Faith which our very doctrine requires that is Faith working by Charity which allso before he called Faith observing the Commandements of God 1. Cor. 7.19 Where it is sayd Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandements of God Again Gal. 6.15 Neither Circumcision availeth any thing nor incircumcision but a new Creature formed by Charity according to Gods commandements Again Eph 1 4. He hath chosen us before the constitution of the world that wee should be Holy and without blame before him in love or Charity Note how that which makes us Holy and without blame before him is Charity Again Eph. 3 17. Christ dwels by Faith in the hart rooted in Charity Again Hebr. 5.9 He became the author of eternall saluation to all that obey him He was not made the author of this saluation to any but such as did obey him For as is sayd 1. Io. 1.7 If we walke in the light Lex Lux the blood of Iesus Christ clenseth us from all sin Where read you that it doth so if wee walke not in the light or do not obey him 4. Note that besides other Texts I have cited here eight out of S. Paul because our adversaries chiefly ground themselves in those his words Rom. 3.28 A man is justifyed by Faith without the works of the Law Where his meaning only is that neither the works of the written Law done by the Iew nor the works of the Law of nature done by the Gentil before either of them believe in Christ can without Faith in Christ justify any one For neither Iew nor Gentil is justifyed by any one of those works but they are justifyed by that Faith which he told you in the former Texts to worke by Charity and to be a Faith observing the commandments of God making us a new creature rooted in Charity and obeying him Thus S. Paul is explicated by S. Aug. upon this place Yea he is explicated by S. Iames in many places of his second chapter as v. 14. Though a man sayth he hath Faith and have not works can Faith save him Note here first that S. Iames supposeth this may happen that a man may
sought for not to be the health of the body but of the soul and if he be in sins they shall be forgiven him The third absurdity is to say there was in the Church for a time a commaund to any one sick among us to seek for a miraculous cure The fourth is to say that any Priest or Elder whatsoever might be called in to work this miraculous cure Vpon what authority of Scripture or History is this sayd Give me leave in the last place to aske if ever you did either read or heare that at the use of any element which was not Sacramentall sins were promissed to be forgiven by any one even of Christs Apostles 4. Other of your Doctors will have this annoynting with oyle to be only the oyle of devout prayers or Charity But first where have you that at your Elders or Priests prayer it will follow that if the sick man be in sins they shall be forgiven him Do not you scoff at Priests forgiving sins and will you now allow a sure warrant attested by Gods own word that at the Priests prayers yea at the Elders the sick mans sinns shall be forgiven Again this free licence of interpreting Oyle to be Prayer or Charity opens a gappe to interprete all that is sayd of applying water in Baptisme to be understood only of applying the cleare and cleansing streames of heavenly doctrine teaching them to believe in the name of the Father Sonne and Holy Ghost without ever casting water on them Again did ever any Holy Father thus interprete this place of S. Ieames Shall I upon your never heard of Interpretation go and forsake a remedy taught me by the practice of all the Church and by so cleare a Text upon which remedy the forgivenes of my sins at the houre of my death and consequently my eternall saluation may depend God give me my witts and I will never do it THE XVIII POINT Of the Sacrament of Holy Order 1. HEre allso Scripture teacheth an outword visible signe to which the giving of inward grace is annexed 1. Tim. 4. v. 14. Neglect not the gift which is in thee Here you have the inward grace given with the laying on of the hands of the Presbiters Here you have the outward signe by which it is given Again 2. Tim. 1.6 I putt thee in remembrance that thou stirre up the gift of God which is in thee Behold the inward grace by the putting on of my hands Behold the outward signe at putting of which that inward grace was conferred Note that though S. Paul were called from heaven and had received the true spirit of God yet he was ordeyned by Imposition of hands Acts. 13 3. 2. Now I pray where have you one text in Scripture to prove Holy Order not to be a Sacrament And so I say of Matrimony Confirmation Pennance Extreme Vnction THE XIX POINT Of the Sacrament of Matrimony 1. WHen Gen. 2. v. 22. our Lord had built the ribbe which he tooke of Adam into a Woman and brought her to Adam Adam sayd this now is the flesh of my flesh wherefore man shall leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wyfe and they shall be one flesh In the new Testament Matth. 19. v. 5. Mar. 10. v. 7. our Saviour repeats those words and hence inferreth Therefore they are not two but one flesh Then of himselfe he adds That therefore which God hath joyned together lett not man separate Now S. Paul repeating part of our Saviours words here cyted sayth This is a great mystery wee read Sacrament but I speake in Christ and in the Church Eph. 5.31 Although S. Paul applyeth here the very name of Sacrament to Matrimony which name is not once in all Scripture applyd to any of the other Sacraments yet it is not from hence we inferre Matrimony to be a Sacrament for by that word in this place we know he only meanes a mystery yet a Sacramentall Mystery But we inferre out of his discourse that this mystery is now elevated by Christ to be a Sacrament because S. Paul citeth the words of Christ spoaken as wee have seene out of S. Matthew when he did abrogate the law of Moyses which Law permitted in severall cases husband and wyfe to be separated and spoaken allso when he declared expresly that he would have this contract made hereafter inseparable saying That which God hath joyned together lett no man separate Christ then marrying to his Church for ever would elevate this chiefe contract that is in mankinde which he made from that time to be an inseparable contract to signify this most sacred Mystery and therefore he sayth This is a great Sacrament or Mystery so much and so neerly concerning Christ and the Church as S. Paul tels us 2. We may here note the impiety of them who knowing by S. Paul that Christ thus inseparably had wedded his Church do notwithstanding presume to call this his beloved spouse a whore and a harlot for her superstition and Idolatry But to proceed marriage being elevated by Christ to be a great Sacrament or sacred Mystery and to signify the inseparable conjunction betweene him ad his Church a signification so farre beyond its owne nature which was only to be a civill contract he made it a fitt Ceremonie to which now he might annexe his grace given to the parties joyned by this Sacrament to observe Matrimoniall Continency That euery one may know to possesse his vessel in sanctification and honour and not in passion of lust as Gentills 1. Thess 4.4 They therefore having this grace given to this end are thereby enabled more fittly to expresse in theyr mutuall fidelity and affection the mutuall fidelity and affection which should be for ever betweene Christ and his Church This is the proper effect of the grace given in Matrimony 3. By this our doctrine of Matrimony lett any impartiall man judge whether wee or our adversaries honour it more they having taken this chiefe honour of being a Sacrament from it which wee allow to it are now come to celebrate it in prophane houses before Iustices and this only for civill ends intended by the common wealth Neither have they one Text of Scripture to prove that theyr Ministers ought allwayes to joyne others in Matrimony THE XX. POINT Of the single life of Priests 1. MAtrimony being a Sacrament and giving grace it may seeme to some that all should do better to make themselves partaker of this grace I answer that the want of this one grace is more then abundantly recompensed by those many great and often received graces of which a single life makes us farre more capable as of receiving more frequently and worthily the Sacrament of Sacraments the Body and blood of our Lord which Priests dayly do with great encrease of greater graces very singular graces allso are obteyned by prayer to which Chastity doth exceedingly conduce as Scriptures teach 2. Lett us heare the Scripture 1. Luke 23. And it
but Christ requyres them to be done our part for they be our scores which be thus behind untill we shall have done all that he hath ordayned that we should doe to be partakers of the full fruit of his Passion in order to the cancelling of paines due for our sinns And we must either by our selves fill up what is behind or accomplish these things which want of the Passion of Christ to this effect or our charitable Brothers must by theyr suffering for us helpe us out as S. Paul here sayth he did helpe out the Coliossians by his suffering for them So that if we be fellows in his Passion we shall be fellows in his Resurrection and gloy Rom. 8.17 7. The obtayning of this remission of all sinns and of all paines due to these sinns which are committed after Baptisme is not done with that facility and easines with which all this was done in Baptisme but it is a thing requires much labour and paine Heb. 10.26 For if we sin willingly after the knowledge of truth receaved there is not left an Host for sins Wherefore though it be most true which was there sayd v. 14. By one oblation he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified Yet the true meaning of that text is that he hath done this in that manner which he in his prudence and justice hath thought fitt that is he hath by that one oblation so perfected them for ever that they to be partakers of this consummated perfection compleated on his part must do all things which he exacts to be done on theyr parts that is believe repent resolue to keepe or endeavour to keepe the Commaundements If thus disposed they superadde Baptisme all is perfected wholy supposing theyr perseverance But if we sin after this Baptisme in which we professe the knowledge of the truth receaved there is now not an Host for sin that is the Host of Christ Crucified which is the oblation consummating them for ever is not left to witt it is not left to cancel and cleanse our sins so easily as before For none can again be baptized in cold water but wee must be rebaptized in the hott water of our teares in the baptisme of pennance for so the Scripture calls pennance in fasting sackcloath watching praying almesdeeds or else we must smart in Purgatory as by Scripture wee shall now prove THE XXV POINT Of Purgatory and prayer for the Dead 1. SOme are so ignorant in the understanding of Scripture that if they find not there the name of Purgatory they presently conclude that according to Scripture there is no such thing as Purgatory This is as great simplicity as it would be to deny the most Blessed Trinity because this name cannot be found in all the Scripture old or new Such men are to be taught that any thing is sufficiently proved out of Scripture if the Scripture can be shewed to contain such principles as cannot be true unlesse it be true allso that there is a Purgatory 2. I say then the Scripture holds forth vnto ut three severall principles all which three must be false unlesse we grant a Purgatory For first if any Scripture teach that although our sins be forgiven us whensoever we truly repent but yet that they are only forgiven so that all the paines due to them be not allwayes forgiven them together with these sins then that very Scripture teacheth us allso that there is a Purgatory because it may often happen that he to whom all sins were forgiven did depart this life before that all the paines due to those his sins were remitted These pains being due by divine Iustice and not being cancelled by any satisfaction made for them in this world it evidently follows that divine Iustice must exact the payment of them in the next world but not in Hell because no man is condemned to Hell who did truly repent for his sin Therefore some other place or state must needs be granted in which such a soule is to pay those temporall punishments which are yet due to her by divine Iustice This place or state is that which we call Purgatory 3. Secondly if any Scripture teach vs that we may live and dye with such sins as be not damnable but only deserve temporall punishment and not eternall that Scripture allso must needs teach us Purgatory which is nothing else but a place in which souls departed suffer only for a time and not for eternity 4. Thirdly if any Scripture teach us to pray for the dead that very Scripture teacheth us a Purgatory For prayers for the dead are unnescessary to those who are in heaven and unprofitable to such as are in Hell Those dead then who can receive help and relief by our prayers must neither be in heaven nor in Hell but in a third place which we call Purgatory My work then is done if I can shew that these three principles beheld forth unto us in Holy Scripture Yet fourthly we shall add severall other Texts in proofe of Purgatory 5. Let us now begin with the first principle and let us shew how the Scripture teacheth us that full often after the sin it self is forgived there do remain some pains yet due even to that sin We are all born in Originall sin This sin is quite forgiven to many children wether it by the faith of theyr parents as in the Law of nature or by Circumcision as in the old Law or by Baptisme as in the new And yet those very infants to whom this sin is forgiuen do notwithstanding for the selfsame forgiven sin suffer the punishment of death due unto them for no other cause but for that very originall sin which was forgiven them This is taught by S. Paul Rom. 5.12 As by one man sin entred into the world and by sin death so unto all death did passe yea truly unto all did death passe even to those innocent Children who have not committed the least offence in the world 6. In the book of Numbers ch 14 The people greviously offended God by murmuring But Moses praying earnestly for them our Lord said I have forgiuen it according to thy word But yet all the men that have seen the signes that I have done in Aegypt and in the wildernesse they shall not see the Land for which I sware to theyr Fathers v. 23. In this wildernesse shall your Carcases lye v. 28. and v. 32 Your Carcases shall be in the wildernesse your Children shall wander in the desert forty years and shall bear your fornication untill the Carcases of theyr Fathers be consumed in the desert And forty yeares shall ye bear your iniquities For as I have spoken so will I doe Note here that God with his own mouth sayd he had forgiven the sin and yet he with the same mouth and breath as I may say tells them there shall be still a just punishment undergone for this very sin for which though forgiven they shall dye in the wildernesse