of tyme and place chaunge and alter as experience teacheth and not of matters of faith and beliefe which are euer the same without anie chaunge or alteration So that my position hath no other contrarietie with S. Aug. doctrine then heate hath with white or hearinge with seeinge PILK Vniuersalitie is a note to finde out the churche by Attende not those companies that goe the broade way they are manie and who cann number them and fewe goe in the narrowe way bringe forth thy weights weighe them see what a deale of chaffe for a littell corne CHAMP The farther you goe the more your ignoraunce or obstinacie doth appeare Are you not ashamed to make S. Aug. att oddes with the Apostles and Nycen Creede both which make vniuersalitie a note propriety of the true churche Besides are you so shallow brayned that you see not that S. Aug. speaketh here of baddly liuinge Christians which make not diuerse churches but are as Chaffe in the same baâ—ne or flore with the good Corne and not of misbeleeuing heretiks and Sectaries which make theire conuenticles a parte out of the churche and are neuer comparable to the true churche for vniuersalitie either of time or place Againe why doe you charge me in the page followinge with forgeinge this propositioÌ„ and fatheringe it vppon you â—he true churche of christe is not necessarilie Catholicke or vniuersall either in respect of place or tyme if you wil denie vniuersallity to be a note of the true churche You are so busied to make contrarieties betwixt my positions and the fathers doctrine that you runne into euident contradictions with your selfe and that within the space of a litle leafe of paper Either confesse the cause which you would defende to be so badd that it inforceth you to these absurdities or leaue the defence of it to some others of better skill and iudgment PILK The true churche of God is visible and apparant both to the saithfull beleeuers that are in it and also to heretickes and others that are out of it What churche nowe freelie serueth Christ For if it be godlie it is exposed to daungers if there be in anie place faithfull seruants of Christ as in all places there are manie they like vnto the great prophett Elias are secret and hide themselues in dennes and caues of the earth or wandringe vppe and downe remayne in the wildernes CHAMP If you woulde haue proued the truth of my position and the conformitie thereof with the doctrine of S. Athanasius you could not easilie haue donne it more effectuallie then by the testimonie you bringe out of him to prooue the contrarie so deuoyde of iudgment are you in all your sayinges For the churche that is exposed to daungers that is in all places and is persecuted is doubtles visible both to the faithfull and to the heretikes Yea those seruantes of Christ that like vnto Elias hide themselueâ— in dennes and remaine in the wildernes are not inuisible more then the catholickes nowe are in Englande whereof some parte is in prison others are in woodes and wildernesses as these were of whom S. Athanasius speaketh And if you could shewe such a visible churche of protestants before Martin Luther you would not vse the shamelesse shift of an inuisible churche whereunto you are driuen by meere necessitie PILK S. Peter was by our Sauiour Christe constituted supreame heade or soueraigne Bishop or pastour ouer his whole churche militant Christe gaue to all his Apostles equall power after his resurrection and sayde as my Father sent me so send I you receiue the holy ghoste whose sinnes you remitt they are remitted and a litle after the rest of the Apostles were the same that Peeter was endued with like fellowshippe both of honour and power CHAMP The equalitie of power to remitt sinnes or as the diuines terme it power of order of which equalitie S. Cyprian speaketh in all the Apostles doth stande well with the supremacie of the power of iurisdiction and gouernment which S. Cyprian geueth to S. Peeter Againe all the Apostles were of equall power in respect of the rest of the churche but not in respect of themselues For one head was chosen saith S. Hierome that the occasion of schisme might be taken away Where you are also to note that if you will still persist to vrge the equalitie of power in all the Apostles out of this testimonie of S. Cyprian you must also in like manner conclude the equalitie of honour in them all which notwithstandinge none of you dare to doe in regarde of so manie prerogatiues clearly geuen to S. Peter both in holy scriptures and by all antiquitie For which reason Spalatensis who hath strugled more peruersly against S. Peter his supremacie then anie other hereticke hitherto doth graunte vnto him a supremacie in diuerse respects thinkinge thereby as 〈◊〉 hee is malicious and peruerse by grauntinge him some parte of his due more easilie to depriue him of the rest Either cease therefore to impugne S. Peter his supreamacie out of this testimonie of S. Cyprian or if you will continue still to doe it take his whole wordes and sence and so shall you make him opposite to your selues PILK The Bishop of Rome is the lawfull and lineall successour of S. Peter in that charge and office which our Sauiour gaue vnto S. Peter ouer his churche militant Lett none of vs make him selfe bishop of bishops or by tyrannicall feare force his fellowes to necessitie of obedience seeinge euerie bishop hath free libertie and licence of his owne power and may not iudge another no more then another may iudge him but lett vs expect the iudgment of our Lord Iesus Christ who onlie and alone hath power to prefer vs in the gouernmeÌ„t of the churche and to iudge of our acts CHAMP I knowe not whether I shoulde ascribe it to ignorance or peruersitie that you produce this Testimonie as opposite to my position For no man of common sence that readeth in S. Aug. whence you cite it but will iudge it most impertinentlie alleadged for your purpose S. Cyprian there speakinge to his fellowe Bishopps of Affricke willinge them to giue their opinions of the matter proposed which was touchinge the Baptisme of heretickes professinge to keepe vnion and communion with them that should iudge other waies then he did And this without mention or intention to include in his speach the Bishope of Rome but directeth his wordes to the Bishops present for that particular matter which there he proposed vnto them PILK To holy Saincts and Angells in heauen is due more then ciuill honour and reuerence We honour the Angells with loue not seruice we builde them no temples c our religion teacheth vs not to worshippe dead men CAMP Your ignorance or peruersitie if not both lieth so open to all men that nothinge else appeareth hitherto in you If you had read S. Aug and but halfe
saluation that he be baptized CHAMP It seemeth you haue not yett learned the rudiments of your religion seinge you number this position amoÌ„gst those that you esteeme forged against you See therefore for your better instruction in this point of Catechisme your grande maister in reformation Iohn Caluin in Antidoto Concilij ad Sess cap. 5. and lib. 4. instit cap. 16. § 24. 25. Peter Martyr another of your maysters vppon these wordes of the Apostle Alinqui filij vesiri in mundi essent 1. Cor. Fulke Marci 1. Sect. 5. with the whole crue of Puritans or Caluinistes Or if you will not looke so farr see the first dayes conferrence of Hampton Courte and see what you finde there of this point And either blushe at your ignorance in the principales of your religion or if you like not the doctrine leaue the companie where it is taught and vnite your selfe to the Catholicke Churche where it is abhorred PILK POSITIO VII Matrimonie contracted betweene Christians is but a ciuill contract CHAMP You are soone wearie of honest dealinge and quicklie returne to your accustomed falsifications I doe blushe in your behalfe that I am forced to tell you so often of it in so fewe lines The position in the Manuall addeth to the wordes sett downe by you And not Sacrament properlie Which if you had added you would haue been ashamed to haue saide the position to be forged If you will cauill say that thoughe it be no Sacrament yett is it not a bare ciuill contract I will not stande here to debate that question with you beinge not materiall to my purpose which was to prooue Matrimonie to be a Sacrament accordinge to the catholicke doctrine aboue and besides the ciuill contract therein contayned and if you should be vrged to shewe in the precise nature of matrimonie anie thinge more then a ciuill contract seeinge you denie it to be a SacrameÌ„t you would I knowe be troubled and would not easilie quitte your selfe of that bussines And Caluin whose authoritie is of some weight with you compareth it to the arte of husbandrie barbinge and weauinge lib. 4. Instit cap. 18. § 34. PILK POSITIO VIII Baptisme and the lordes supper are not instruments of Grace but onlie signes of gods good will towardes vs or meanes to stirre vppe faith in vs. CHAMP Heere againe I am constrained to tell you of your false dealinge The position sett downe by me is this Neither Baptisme nor the other Sacraments of the newe lawe geue grace as cause thereof but are onlie signes of gods good will towardes vs or meanes to stirre vppe Fayth in vs. What materiall diuersitie you will finde betwixt this position and the 25. article of your churche I knowe not It saith thus Sacraments be not onlie badges or tokens of christian mens profession but rather they be certaine sure witnesses and effectuall signes of grace and gods good-will towardes vs by which he doth worke inuisiblie in vs and not onlie quicken but also confirme and stregthen our fayth in him And your maister in reformation Caluin speaketh yett more conformablie to the position sett downe by me heare his owne wordes This onlie office is inioyned to the Sacraments to witnes to vs and confirme in vs gods good will And againe The Sacraments are to vs from God as are messengers of gladd bidinge from men or as an ernest pennie in stricking couenants as not geueinge anie grace of themselues but declare and shewe and as they are earnest money or tokens doe ratifie in vs those thinges which by gods liberalitie are geuen vnto vs. And for more cleare explication of his meaninge he vseth in the 18. Section follwinge the examples of the raynbowe and of Gedions fleece And this shall suffice for this present to cleare me of forgerie and to prooue you ignorant in the principales of your owne erroneous doctrine vnles peraduenture you be ashamed of it and therefore denie it to be yours PILK POSITIO IX Iustification is onlie remission of sinnes CHAMP You are as obstinate in false dealinge as if you had sworne neuer to deale truelie The position in the manuall is sett downe in these wordes Iustification is onlie the remission of sinnes without renmation of spirit or interiour Sanctification which position if you dare to denie to be trulie protestanticall all those of your sect that haue written of Iustification will condemne you of ignorance in theire doctrine PILK POSITIO X. By Iustification sinne is onlie couered and not quite taken away CHAMP Why did you omitte to say as I said seeing the position sett downe by me is so breife in these wordes By Iustification sinne is onlie couered or not imputed and not washed or quite taken away Surelie for noe other cause I thinke but to keepe your selfe in custome with clippinge and gueldinge as he did that did steale strawes to keepe his fingers in we with filchinge but peraduenture you feared the worde not imputed so often abused by your maysters and the worde washed vsed in the holy Scriptures Howsoeuer your errour in imputinge to me sorgerie in this position is not pardonable Cannot you vtter one position but with manifest falsification or palpable ignorance or both Reade onlie the seconde article of Luther for I will trouble you with no moe referrences att this tyme and see his doctrine in this point His wordes are these It is another thinge that al sinnes are remitted and another that all sinnes are taken away Baptisme doth remitte all but it taketh none quite away but beginneth onlie to take them away Againe your knowne doctrine of imputatiue and not inherent iustice doth it not necessarilie inforce you to say that our sinnes are only couered or not imputed but not washed and quite taken away PILK POSITIO XI Man thoughe holpen by Gods grace hath not free will either to fly ame euill or to doe good auaylinge to his Saluation but in both is forced to doe that which God hath ordayned he shoulde doe CHAMP This position haue you trulie sett downe But why doe you say that it is forged The sole title of your first maister Luther his booke de seruo arburio might haue taught you that it is his professed doctrine Reade further his 36. article where besides manie other thinges to this purpose he hath these expresse wordes I said ill that freewill before grace is a meere rule But I shoulde haue sayde that frewill is a fiction or a title without the thinge Because it is in no mans power to thinke either good or badd but all thinges as Wicleffe his article condemned at Constance ri helie teacheth doe happen by absolute necessitie And thus you see Sir your Catalogue of antithesis and roll of forged posiâ—ions which you muster in the beginninge of your booke to deceiue your lâ—sse warie reader and disgrace your aduersarie is blowne away more easilie then a Cop-webb is broken with the winde to your owne irrecouerable disgrace and
CHAMP This authoritie is like the rest impertinent to your purpose and rather against you then for you For he that defendeth the authoritie of the churche and these thinges that are taught by her defendeth nothinge from without the bookes of God but he that defendeth the contrarie as you doe doth euidently impugne the gospell S. Hill willeth the Arrian Emperour to heare these thinges that are written of Christ as this he is one with his father and the like and then he should be farr from beleeuinge that which is no where written to witt that he is a creature and inferiour to his father Your cause is most miserable and despicable seeinge it is forced to begge testimonie of such extorted witnesses And nowe I leaue to the iudicious reader be he catholicke or protestant to iudge whether the catholicke positions of this first controuersie sett downe in the Manuall be not both more clearlie expressed and more firmelie and trulie prooued by scripture then the protestant position sett downe by Mr. Pilkinton which is the chiefe issue of our controuersie and dispute And further whether the positions sett downe in the Manuall vnder the title of protestant positions be not truly and iustly ascribed vnto them and more directlie pertayninge to the controuersie heere discussed then the others proposed by him MANVALL The second Controuersie of traditions Catholike position 1. The holy Apostles diliuered by worde of mouth moe thinges to be beleeued obserued by the churche then either they found written or wrote themselues And these thinges are vsuallie called traditions PILK You haue gotten a wolfe by the eare when you fasten on traditions if you lett them goe they carrie with them a great parte of your faith if you holde them fast you shewe you cannot prooue your faith from scriptures For you freelie and plainlie tell vs what your churche meaneth by traditions not interpretation of that which is written but addition and suppliment of that which is not For moe thinges say you are to be beleeued and obserued then either the Apostles wrote or founde written and these are traditions Let the reader marke this for the question here betwixt vs is not of interpretation of scriptures nor of rites and ceremonies that haue correspondence with them which here he carrieth vnder the name of thinges to be obserued but of doctrines and matters of faith which are thinges to be beleeued all which saith he were neuer written in the old testament nor yet in the newe CHAMP You putt me in minde of the fable of the fox that hauinge lost his owne tayle would needes perswade his fellowes to cutt of theires So you beinge out of loue with traditions woulde perswade vs to reiect them also But we are not so soone moued we professe to beleeue diuerse things for traditions sake and that by warrant of scripture whereunto if you did geue so much creditt as you would be thought to doe you woulde also beleeue the same And seing you yeeld alreadie the one halfe of the controuersie to witt traditions of thinges to be obserued for of these thinges you say there is no question betweene vs I will not dispaire to euict the other part of thinges also to be beleeued from you PILK Nowe this is a manifest vntruth For there is not anie article of faith which the Apostles founde not in the scriptures of the prophetts nor which either the euangelists or themselues did not consigne vnto vs in theire writings which thinge any man may finde to be true that will take paines to consider the articles of the Apostolike creede one by one which either haue proofe out of the ould testament or else the Apostles did not double all theire doctrines out of the scriptures Contrary to S. Paules practise acts 26. 22. CHAMP Howe manifest an vntruth it is that the Apostles taught more then either they found written or wrot themselues we shall see in the processe of this controuersie In the meane while I tell you that you affirme boldlie but prooue nothinge And why doe you referr vs to the Apostles creede for proofe of your vniuersall affirmation Is nothinge to be beleeued but that which is therein contayned what find you I pray you in the creede touchinge either the number or the nature of the Sacraments of theire efficacie or necessitie of originall sinne of the fall of the Angells with manie moe articles beleeued by all christians And yett you confirme your proofe farr more absurdlie by supposinge that the Apostles doubled that is your worde where you learned it I knowe not al theire doctrine out of scripture which is the thinge in question and therefore most absurdlie brought for proofe of the same Againe what necessitie had the Apostles to double theire doctrine as you say out of the scriptures Hadd they not authoritie to preach anie thinge but what they founde alreadie in the scriptures What Christian euer dreamed of such doctrine as you haue deliuered here But this was S. Paules practise you say But you are either ignorantlie or wilfullie mistakē and that most grosselie For thoughe S. Paule and the rest of the Apostles preached nothinge contrarie to the doctrine of the old testament but contrariwise shewed howe the auncient prophecies were fulfilled by our Sauiour Christ which S. Paules auditours at Boerea findinge by conferinge his doctrine with the prophets were much confirmed in theire faith yett is it noe where sayd that either he or the rest preached nothinge but that they founde written Neither did this paradoxe euer enter into anie mans heade but Mr. Pilkintons PILK Reade saith Ireneus diligentlie the Gospell which the Apostles haue geuen vs and read also diligentlie the prophetts and you shall finde all the actions and passions of our lorde yea all his doctrine for to be preached your proofes haue as much truth as the Carthaginians faith CHAMP S. Ireneus saith no more but that there is a great and manifest conformitie or agreement betweene the Prophetts and Apostles preachinge and doctrine which as it is most true so is it as much to your purpose as Paules steeple is to Charinge Crosse And whether my proofes or yours haue more affinitie with the Carthaginian faith lett the indifferent reader iudge MANVALL Proofe of the catholike position 1. Hauinge moe thinges to write vnto you I woulde not by paper and Inke For I hope I shall be with you and speake mouth to mouth PILK These well conclude that in this shorte Epistle S. Iohn did not write all the poyntes of faith but that others of the Apostles did not write them he saith not a word What loose reasoninge is this S. Iohn did not write all in these Epistles therefore the rest did not For whatsoeuer is necessarie vnto saluation and of faith though there it be not to be found yet in the writings of the other Apostles it is to be read CHAMP Seeinge I haue by your confession prooued out of the scripture that this Apostle
refuse it if they say anie thinge for you But neither of the fathers cited by you saith that the Apostles wrote all they preached which is our issue heere And as fo◠the former to witt S. Ireneus you haue his plaine meaninge layd downe vnto you before in the beginninge of our dispute to witt in the answere to your second Antithesis which you frame out of these selfe same wordes of S. Ireneus And as for S. Aug. he saith not that Christ commanded to bee written whatsoeuer he woulde haue vs to beleeue of him or his workes but onlie whatsoeuer he woulde haue vs to reade Which is most true For he could not will that we shoulde read anie thinge but that which was written But lett vs yeelde yett further vnto you and suppose these fathers to say as much for your purpose as you would haue which you see is farr otherwise yett woulde I aske you where they had that doctrine not from the scripture for no such thinge appeareth therein If therefore you will admitte of theire doctrine though not taken out of the scripture why doe you professe that nothinge is to be beleeued but that which is written and contayned in the scripture And thus you see your selfe so inuolued with your doctrine that you can finde noe way to escape some manifest absurditie Manuall Proofe 4. They the Apostles taught baptisme giuen to infants to be good and lawfull or else the Anabaptists are not heretikes for rebaptisinge them PILK The Baptisme of infants may by good and necessarie consequence be deriued from the scriptures otherwise your friend Bellarmine hath brought chaffie arguments against the Anabaptists The first is from the figure of the olde testament children were circumcised therefore they ought to be baptised this is so stronge saith he that it cannot be eluded The second is taken out of the thirde of Iohn Except a man be borne againe of water and the holy Ghost he cannot enter into the kingdome of heauen Whereunto may be added Christs commaundment Matt. 19. 14. Suffer little children to come vnto me for of such is the kingdome of heauen And in howe manie places doth S. Aug. prooue from the holy scriptures the necessitie of Baptisme against the Pelagians who imagininge children to be without original sinne thought it vnnecessarie wheras he sheweth out of Iohn that without it originall sinne is not remitted and therefore if it be needfull certainlie it is lawfull CHAMP The arguments vsed by Bellarmine are not chaffie but substantially good because they are taken from the scripture interpreted by the authoritie of the churche and the canonicall practise thereof receiued from the Apostles which is sufficient to prooue the Anabaptists to be heretike denyinge the Baptisme of infants to be lawfull And seeing you confesse the testimonie of the 3. of S. Iohn to be so effectuall to prooue the lawfulnes of the Baptisme of infants you must likwise confesse Caluin and all his followers to be heretikes For he denyeth the necessity of Baptisme to saluation which is much more clearlie prooued out of that place then is the Baptisme of infants And so whilst you woulde auoyde one euill you fall into a worse The same inconuenience followeth against you vppon the argument of S. August For if he prooue rightlie against the Pelagians that Baptisme is necessarie he concludeth directlie against your Master Caluin Yea against the doctrine deliuered in the first dayes conference of Hampton Courte Read it and see whether I say not true Manuall Proofe 6. They the Apostles taught the sunday to be solemnised and the Iewes Sabboth to be lefte without all solemnitie Thoughe moste strictly commaunded by God to be solemnised as an euerlastinge Couenant PILK The obseruation of the sunday and alteration from the Iewishe Sabboth we finde written in the scriptures For Iohn tearmeth it the Lordes day not onlie for that it was consecrated to his publike seruice but for that he was the instituter and ordayner thereof as S. Aug speaketh It was prefigured in the eight day wherein the Iewes vsed circumcision as both the same father and Chrisost teach and if prefigured then prescribed In this day did the Apostles come together acts 20. 7. and accordinglie they taught the churche to obserue it not by voyce onlie but by writinge 1. cor 16. 2. Euerie first day of the weeke lett euerie one of you put a side by himselfe and though it were commaunded by God to be obserued as an euerlastinge couenant yett who is so meanlie skilled in the Hebrue that knoweth not Gnolam sometymes to signifie eternitie sometimes a definit tyme as to the Iubilee Exad 21 6 then his master will bringe him vnto the iudges and sett him to the dore or the poste and his maister shall bore his eare throughe with an awle and he shall serue him for euer and as the passeouer was tearmed Exo 12. 14. an euerlastinge ordinance which yett was but to continue till the fulnes of tyme. So the Sabboth is tearmed an euerlasting couenant which yett for the day was onlie vnder the state of the olde testament CHAMP Here you exceede your selfe in impertinencie and wilfull obstinacie If I should haue brought out of the scriptures for traditions such proofes as you doe to ouerthrowe them you would make sporte therat and worthelie saying they were not onlie loose arguinge but verie seelie Sophistrie S. Iohn tearmeth one day the Lordes day ergo say you the scripture testifieth the abrogation of the Iewes Sabboth and establishment of the sunday and that fully for of full proofe and testimonie wee here dispute Againe the Apostle willed the Corrinthians euerie first day of the weeke to lay a side by themselues c. Ergo say you the Apostle did not onlie teach by voice but by writinge also the obseruation of the christians sunday insteede of the Iewishe Sabboth These are your best and strongest arguments in this matter which if you trulie thinke to be fully sufficient of themselues to prooue that you desire with what face or conscience can you reiect the proofes of expresse scripture and cleare instances brought for the catholike position as not sufficient to prooue the same Manuall Proofe 6. They deliuered and taught the creede by worde of mouthe and not in writinge which from theire tyme till nowe hath cōtinued in the churche by tradition onlie PILK The creede we confesse the Apostles taught and finde euerie parcell and portion thereof in theire writings which if you denie we can quickelie make good S. Aug. telleth vs so much These wordes which you haue hearde he speaketh of the Simboll are scattered in the holy scriptures from them collected and reduced into one to helpe the memorie of dull men But here you delude your reader againe with a triflinge Homonomie of this worde creede For if thereby you meane wordes and sillables then it is true that the Apostles vse not in theire writings some wordes expressed in the creede neither is