To whome quoth Christ O mother I am not able to denie it thee then Marie put in the ballance the droppe of bloud togither with hir merits and then that part weyed downe to the grounde so that the deuils went crying away Our Ladie is too mercifull to Christians we euer fayle where she medleth with vs O Ladie it is not good contending with thee What a derogation is this to Chist And where ye graunt most to the bloud of Christ where ye would salue the matter with intercession euen there ye say not that he will vouchsafe to graunt hir petition but that he is not able to gainesay it yea that it is not lawfull for him to denie it For sayth Cardinall Uigerius Dixit Salomon c. Salomon sayd to his mother aske mother what you will for it is not lawfull for me to turne away my face from hir that bare me VVhat shall wee thinke other than this the Lorde Iesus Christ to say to his mother who is farre wiser and iuster than Salomon And his reason is this Salomons mother had midwiues nources bearers of the child and instructours but Marie was all this hir selfe and so Christ is more bounde to his mother than Salomon to Bethsabée And therefore if we will worship Christ wée must first go to his mother For as sayth Iacobus de Voragine as Eue was in the middest betweene the serpent and the man so Marie making our reconciliation is in the midst betwene God and man. What a dubble blasphemie is this First that our reconciliation is made by any other than Christ of whom the Apostle sayth If when we were yet enimies we were reconciled to God by the death of his sonne much more seeing we are reconciled we shall be preserued by his life nor yet onely so but also glorying in God through our Lorde Iesus Christ by whome we haue nowe obteyned reconciliation Secondly that we haue any other mediatour than Christ wher as the apostle sayth Unus deui c. There is one God and one mediatour of God and man the man Christe Iesus neyther will your shift serue you to cloake youre blasphemie that ye make hir a mediatour of intercession for lo here he maketh hir a mediatour of making the attonement and reconciliation betwene mankinde and God which as it is our very redemption so is it the proper office of Christ alone â—…pse est pax nostra c. He is ouâ—… peace whiche hath made one of both hath broken downe the wall that was a stop betweene vs and also hath done away through his flesh the cause of hatred that is to say the lawe of commaundements conteyned in the lawe written for to make of twaine one new man in himselfe so making peace and to reconcile both vnto God in one bodie through his Crosse and slue hatred thereby For through him we both haue an open way in one spirite vnto the father Wherevpon sayth S. August Nes per mediatorem Christum reconciliamur deo VVe are reconciled to God by Christ being the mediator What blasphemie then is this in you to spoyle Christ hereof and giue it to the virgine Marie and make hir as much the instrument and meane of our reconciliation as Eue was the instrument and meane of our perdition But in this entrance of our perdition though both Adam Eue were culpable and both being one flesh are comprehended vnder the name of one and that of Adam the husband as the Apostle sayth Death reigned from Adam to Moses eueÌ„ ouer them also that sinned not with like traÌ„sgression as did Adam which is the similitude of him that is to come Yet afterward S. Paule noting the meane by whome properly the sinne entred first affirmeth that Adam was not deceyued but the woman was deceyued and was in transgression If then ye make the like proportion of our reconciliation froÌ„ Adam to Christ from Eue to the virgin then as Eue properly was the very originall and cause of the transgression though Adam being the assenter bare the name therof then properly the virgin is the very original cause of our reconciliation and Christ is but an assenter so beares but the name thereof What a wicked doctrine is this M. S. â–ª and is this now nothing els but ora pro nobis Might not Christ rather say ora pro nobis to hir syth ye giue hir all him a bare name only Now to the confirming of this blasphemous doctrine commeth in another of hir Chaplayues crying O foemina super omma c. O woman that art aboue all things and blessed of all things the fore elect and most worthie vessell framed of the first artificer the treasorie of the diuine giftes god hath chosen forechosen thee that God and man might dwell nine Monethes in thy tabernacle I dare boldly say that euen for the Virgin conceyued in Gods minde many thousande yeares before shee was borne mankinde was preserued in his beeing For it is euident that for their first transgression Adam and Eue deserued not onely death but euen the vtter rooting them out to nothing And the diuine vengeance which knoweth not the accepting of persons as it left not vnpunished the aungels offence so woulde it not haue left vnpunished mankindes offence but our first parents were preserued that they were not consumed to nothing for the chiefest reuerence that he had to the virgin for he loued hir aboue all creatures that should be created and not vnited vnto god The reason is that this Mayden was in the loynes of Adam as concerning the sede And the power of bringing forth the mayden was imprinted in the first father tyll shee were in deede brought foorth But of hir Iesus ought to be borne who was in Adam onely after his bodily substance to be brought forth of the virgin and of none other God therefore did spare oure first parentes nor consumed them to nothing bicause that so shee had not beene borne and by consequence Iesus neyther nor God had put on flesh Therefore by this noble creature God did saue our first parentes from the transgression and Noe from the floud and Abraham from the slaughter of the Kinges Isaac from Ismaell Iacob from Esau the Iewish people from Aegypt from Pharaos hande from the redde Sea from the force of dyuerse Kinges and Tyrauntes from Nabuchodonozor and from the captiuitie of Babilon Dauid from the Lion from Goliah and from Saule And to conclude all the fauourings and deliuerances made in the olde testament I doubt not but God did them for the loue of this mayden and for the worship of hir whom God had from without beginning foreordeyned to be set aboue all his workes O outragious blasphemie where is Christ How agréeth this with S. Paules doctrine that Christ is the image of the inuisible god the first begotten of all creatures for by him were all things created things that are
see whether you with Pigghius or we with S. Aug. shall come nearer to the Messalians Heresie Your Capitaine Pigghius saith that originall sinne is in deede no sinne at all in infants before nor after baptisme But baptisme taketh away froÌ„ them only original sinne Ergo Baptisme taketh no sinne from them Againe you â–ª say the childe that is not baptised shall be condemned But his sinnes which are the cause of his condemnation are not taken away by baptisme for how can it take away that that is not Ergo ye make the infant to be neuer the better for baptisme Nowe what was the saying of the olde Heretike Adelphius vnto the godly Bishop Flauianus Os venenum ê™ celauit euomuit atque dixit nullam quidem vtilitatem ex sancto baptismate baptisatis accedere His mouth cast out all the venome which it hid and sayde there commeth no profite at all by holy baptisme to those that are baptised And hath Pigghius parbreaked vp agayne this olde poyson of the Messalians and you haue lapped vp this Pigges most filthie vomite But woulde to God this went no further and that ye were not herein worse poysoned than euer the Messalians were and that it were not directly agaynst God himselfe and quite disanulling the death and bloâ—…dshed of Iesus Christe For whereas the infant sayth Pigghius hath no sinne in him and yet God cendemneth him if he be not baptized then doth GOD condemne him that iâ—… aâ—… innocent from sinne God condemneth where no offence nor transgression is Nowe doth this agrée with the iustice of God to condemne an infant for no sinne or for a bare name of sin or for another mans sin it selfe being nothing culpable thereof for all this Pigghius sayth But God is â—…ust and righteous in all his doinges then is the infant borne in very sinne and hath but the rewarde of sinne if he bée condemned The rewarde of sinne is death And by sinne and verie sinne not a name of sinne came death into the worlde and so hath ouerrunne all men for as muche as all haue sinned Againe ye say that the death of Christ taketh away only the originall sinne of Infants baptized as for other sinnes after baptisme our selues must make satisfaction for them But originall sinne sayth Pigghius is in déede no sinne for all it is called sinne as my writing is called my hande bicause my hande wrote it but it is not in deede my hande The death of Christ therefore taketh away the onely bare name of a thing And so our satisfactions do not onely more than the death of Christ but in very déede our satisfactions do all and the death of Christ doth nothing And thus as ye ascribe to the vertue of his death a bare name so make ye him a redemer in bare name and make an Idoll of the bare name of Iesus and take away the purport and effect thereof giuing him baptisme that ye call Primam gratiam to take away a bare name of sinne but not to take away that which ye call sinne in déede This is the doctrine master Stapleton of your doctours and if ye agrée with them of yours Who are now the Messalians who deface baptisme who blaspheme God who disanull and make of none effect the death of Christ and all the benefite of washing vs from our sinnes so fully in baptisme represented and exhibited vnto vs Pigghius or S. Augustine you or we For shame M. Stap. leaue your lying nay rather for shame learne to knowe shoulde I say the righteousnesse of God and the benefit he hath wrought by Christe But howe shoulde ye knowe this when yée knowe not your selues ye féele not your owne corruption ye acknowledge not your sinnes but make them no sinnes ye vnderstande not yet your principles and rudimentes of Christianitie and perceyue not what Baptisme is which ye receyueâ—… being infantes and nowe taking on you to be writers Doctours and teachers of other ye had more néed go to a yong scholler againe and learne your Cathechisme better to know what ye were deliuered from and what remayneth in you Is it any maruayle though ye haue such a number of other errours that haue as it were thus sucked error from your infancies he can neuer be good reader that can not spell nor good Gramarian that neuer learned hys rules but often breake Priscians head and so do you breake Christes so much as lyeth in you If your vnskill be not of malice learne to knowe your selues that before baptisme ye were children of wrath old Adam a lumpe and Masse of verie sinne in déede that that is borne of the flesh is flesh And that all euen the thoughts and affections of the fleshe are very enemities agaynst God. And that this leauen of sinne hath sowred the whole dough That we are not sicke but Mortui in delictis Starke dead in wickednesse and sinnes that all are thus The Scripture sayth S. Paule hath shut vp all vnder sinne There is not one hath done good no not one All are borne and begotten of vncleane seede Yea Dauid himself confesseth his mother coÌ„ceiued him in sin Where he accuseth not his mother for an harlot or himself of bastardie or the act of matrimonie to be sinful But that euen the masse substance of himselfe conceyued was corrupt with sin bicause they were sinners of whose seede he came For such as is the tree such fruite it bringeth forth we cannot saith Christ haue grapes of thornes nor figges of briers By one man sin entred into the world by sin death so death passed through all bicause al haue sinned Thus plainly as ye may sée that originall sinne and concupiscence is very sinne before baptisme so learne of the Apostle to know what sâ—…ill remaineth in you after baptisme For ye are not better than he that sayde I know that in me that is in my flesh there dwelleth no good thing he knewe no pure naturall qualities remayning in his flesh as your schoolemen say they know in theirs And thinke ye he mitigated the matter or was ashamed to confesse that it was euen sinne in him after Baptisme Nay he not onely calleth it peccatum sinne But inhabitans peccatum sinne inhabiting corpus peccatuÌ„ the body of sinne legeÌ„ peccati the law of sinne legem rebellanteÌ„ a rebelling law and is rebellioÌ„ no sin with you fighting agaynst the spirit of God in him yea leading him captiue insomuch that thereby he sayth he was solde vnder sin yea it is the very body of death vpon which he stil cried out Miserum me quis â—…e liber abit a corpore mortis huiuâ—… Vvretch that I am who shal deliuer me from the body of this death Dare you M. St. bicause Pigghius and other popish flatterers tell ye it is no sinne so exalt your selfe aboue the holy Apostle S. Paule to thinke it is no sinne at
all in you that he confessed to be so great and grieuous a sinne in him Now and there were no other place in the scripture to proue it sinne but euen this were not this plaine ynough that the Apostle sayth NesctebaÌ„ concupiscentiam esse peccatiâ—… nisi lex dixisset non concupisces I had not knowne coÌ„cupiscence to be sinne but that the law said thou shalt not lust Wherin he nameth it not onely sinne for that ye count no sufficient argument but say it is so named for that it commes of sinne and disposeth and inclines to sinne therefore is called improperly by the name of sin but the Apostle addeth a strong reason to proue it sinne in very déed bicause by the flat commaundement of God it is forbidden therefore it is a transgâ—…ession of Gods commaundement and displeasing God for otherwise God would not by his law forbid it Which expresse law against concupiscence when S. Paule regarded better than it appeareth you dothe then coÌ„fessed it to be sin which before he knew not by ignorance of the law Although your ignorance be of wilfull malice that will neither know Gods law nor your owne transgression of it nor all these euident confessions of the Apostle obiect S. Aug. against the Messalians to vs and yet are you both agreeing with the Messalians and flat agaynst S. August your selues For what could Saint August write more plaine than this Sicut coecitas cordis c. EueÌ„ as the blindnesse of tâ—…e hart is both sinne wherewith we beleue not in God and the punishment of sinne wherwith a prowde heaâ—…t is punished with worthie correction the cause of sinne when ought is committed by the errour of a blinde heart so concupiscence of the flesh against the which the good spirite doth lust is both sin bicause there is in it a disobedience against the rule of the mind and the punishment of sinne bicause it is giuen for the deseruings of the disobeyer and the cause of sinne by the defection of the consenter or the contagion of him that is borne In which wordes as he plainely speaketh both of the state of the birth before baptisme and of the consent defection and deseruings after baptisme so he maketh concupiscence not to be sinne it selfe onely but also the punishment and the cause of sinne Neither is S. August alone herein for S. Hierom doth not onely call it sinne but least ye shoulde dally about the name he sayth Habitans in sua carne peccatum hoc est vitia corporis desideria voluptatis c. But if my outwarde man do that he would not and worke that whiche he hateth hee sheweth the commaundement to bee good and that he worketh not that which is euill but sinne inhabiting in his flesh that is the vices of the bodie and desires of pleasure the whiche for the posteritie and ofspring is euen grafted in mennes bodyes Thus maketh he concupiscence not sinne inhabiting onely but euen verye vice it selfe engrafted in vs speaking not onely on himselfe but euen on Saint Paule also And are you better â—…ordâ—… all these What procéedeth this vpon but plaine arrogancie ioyned with obstinacy to conceale your shame and flatter your selues in your sinfull burning lusts which rather than ye would with humilitie acknowledge and confesse ye spare not so to exalt your selues that ye deface the glorie of God so to vaunte your pâ—…ra naturalia your frée will and merits that ye quite take away euen the death of Iesus Christ and to establishe your owne righteousnesse ye disdaine to be subiect to the righteousnesse of God and making vs beleue we had no sin at all while we were infants newly regenerate to deceyue our selues and to haue no more truth in vs than is in you Go now Master Stapleton and boast that we be Messalians or rather clere your selues of their Heresies besides that ye be not onely Messalians but Missalians or Massalians which is a great deale worser Heresie Your next obiection is of Images And bicause say you ye shall not say I suppresse conceale or obscure the chiefe and most notable persons of your auncestrie how say ye to the Emperors Philippicus Leo CoÌ„stantinus coÌ„demned with their adherents by the 7. generall CouÌ„cell at Nice that villained by defacing breaking and burning the Images of all the holy Hallowes of Christ Christs too If your guiltie conscience M. Stap. do misgiue you that ye haue hitherto charged vs falsly and haue suppressed concealed and obscured our true auncestours and in stead therof haue obiected Heretikes it were some token of grace and repentance in you that ye say yet now at the length ye will not suppresse conceale or obscure the chiefe and notable persons of our auncestrie Where ye aske vs what we say to these thrée Emperors Philippicus Leo Constantinus that ye say villained Images whatsoeuer we say to them Master Stapelton some good fellowe perhaps will say this to you that if they bée suche most notable persons ye might haue spared such villainous language except it be naturall to you to vse villaynes Rhetoricke on chiefe Princes and most notable personages But I will not meddle with your well nurtured termes onely I desire you as ye pretend not â—…o suppresie conceale nor obscure indeede the chiefe and most notable persons of our auncestrie whereby ye meane the auncient Emperors If ye will not in very déed how chaunce ye name but these thrée for taking away of Images why suppresse ye the names of the Emperors Ualens Theodosius that made a plaine decrée agaynst all maner of Imagâ—…rie of all the holy Hallowes of Christ as ye call them Christes to and yet your seuenth generall Councell condemned theÌ„ not yea your selfe as after shal appéere do highly coÌ„mend them What ment ye to suppresse the name of Carolus Magnus commended likewise highly euen by your selfe and yet he abolished all Images also Why name ye Philippicus Leo Constantinus onely and tell not of all the other Emperors before these after these euen til the time of Theodorus Lascaris that yelded to your Pope herein at Lions Councell therfore the Gréekes depriued and expelled him for his labour Syth then so many chief and most notable persons of the auncient Emperors of which your self graunt some to be as godly as notable being before that CouÌ„cell were not condemned by it being as ye say our auÌ„cestors herein are altogither quite suppressed concealed obscured is not this very partiall and vnfaithfull dealing in reiecting our honourable pedegree M. St But I see you will neuer leaue your lying Nowe where ye say these thrée Emperors were condemned by the seuenth generall Councell at Nice True in déede they were so euen as you condemned all Godly Princes at your last Trident Councell that abolishe your Idolatrie What maner a Councell it was and what maner of reasons they haue in it for the
as ye sayde before disposing otherwyse than Christ hath done your Priestes do so but they ought not to do so The Prince can not do it nor he dothe it nor claymes to doe it nor it is ascribed vnto him Yea thoughe you meane by disposing no alteration yet is this an harde phrase to say that Princes or priestes either dispose of the Churche of Christe but rather dispose of matters in the Church of Christ. And this as the Priest may doe in his vocation so may the Prince in his estate Which though it be not expressed by name but comprehended in the newe Testament yet is it euen by name expressed in the olde Testament in diuers places of the disposing of Church matters by Moyses Iosue Dauid Salomon Iosaphat Ezechias c. And since your selfe confesse the one gouernment is a figure of the other And that the gouernment before Christ he neither brake it nor diminished it it followeth that theÌ„ he left it entire and confirmed it And therfore although the Princes disposing of Churche matters be not by name expressed yet is it by your reasoÌ„ necessarilie comprehended and so you answere your selfe Now after he hath thus as he supposeth debarred Princes from all warrant oute of the law of God and the newe Testament he examineth the other lawes saying Except therefore by the lawe of nature the law of nations or the lawe ciuill such power be permitted too the king it is cleare that he hath no power at all ouer these things But certaine it is that those lawes cannot giue to the king any power ouer things that are not subiect to those lawes For no law can establishe ought either of other things or persons or actions than those things that fall vnder the compasse of it But Ecclesiasticall matters do infinitly excede the power of the lawe of Nature of nations and the ciuill For of these three the law of nature is the first and greatest But neither that sith it begaÌ„ in the earth can decree ought vpon the mysteries of Christe which draw their originall from heauen onely For that I may speake nothing of the force of nature being yet entire truely after that the nature of all mankynd by the sinne of Adam was corrupted and death entring by one man passed into al it can not be that from that infected originall any good thing shoulde come forth For an ill tree can not bring forth good fruites neither doth the fleshely man such as we all be by nature perceiue those things that are of the spirite of God. All this labor is a néede not M. Saunders to run for confirmation of a Christian doctrine from the law of God to the lawe of nature and the lawe of man we vse not so to doe Neither desire we anye doctrine to be admitted that is not proued by the lawe of God reuealed in his worde vnto vs it is you the Papists that stand on such proues and grounds not we Howbeit you do iniurie to the law of nature to measure it altogether by the corruption of our nature For howsoeuer we be degenerate from it the law of nature remaineth in it selfe both good and perfect and is called likewise the law of God. Neither can I thinke that euery ecclesiasticall thing as ecclesiasticall things are commonly vnderstoode is infinitely aboue the power of the law of nature By which reason many petit matters would be farre aboue great principles Yea many great Ecclesiasticall matters doe fall within the compasse of the lawe of nature It is true that you say of the corruption of our nature that by the fall of Adam sin hath infected the Masse of all mankinde Death by one man hath entred into all men No goodnesse can come of such a corrupted originall An ill tree can not bring forth good fruite and that the fleshely man perceiueth not the things that are of the spirit of God. All this is true but is it not as much against a Priest as a Prince for the Priest in that he is a man is borne in sinne and dyeth by death the reward of sinne nor caÌ„ bring forth any good fruites nor perceiue the things of the spirit of God. And the prince in that he is a ChristiaÌ„ is washed from his sinne The sting of death hath no power ouer him but is a passage to eternall life He is regenerate by a newe originall from aboue He is a good tree and bringeth good fruits and is become a spirituall man perceiuing and working the things that are of the spirite of God and that perchaunce a great deale better than many a good Priest and without all doubt farre more spirituall than any Popishe priest And therefore that ye speake of the corruption of nature is nothing to the purpose excepte it be to confute your errors of pura naturalia fréewill preparatiue workes c. But Maister Saunders drist is this that onely the Priests are spirituall men and so may onely Iudge of spiritual things and Princes are but naturall fleshely and sinnefull men and so can giue no Iudgement of spirituall matters But howe vntrue this is how presumptuous on his partie and iniurions to all Christian Princes and how contrary to his owne selfe that faith else where Christian Princes are spirituall I thinke anye that haue but meane Iudgement may easily Iudge it But Maister Saunders procéedeth saying But to Iudge of Ecclesiasticall matters is no small good thyng but one of the chiefest that Christe hath gyuen vnto his Church bycause he hath gyuen the power of feeding of losyng and bynding to his Apostles that is to the chiefest Magistrates of hys Churche euen as the greatest gifte VVhich gifte they coulde neuer well exercise but wyth Iudgement eyther goyng before or goyng with it For he that shall binde nothing but that that shoulde be bounde and shall lose nothing but that that shoulde be losed must of necessitie before hande deliberate and decree that this is to bee bounde and that is to bee losed But to decree suche a thing to bee done or not to be done in Christian Religion this is euen that that we call to Iudge in matters of Faith. Syth therfore a power so heauenly and notable can not spring oute of the beginnings of our corrupte nature it followeth that it commeth onely of the free mercie of god But that mercie of God is made manifest vnder the time of the new Testament partlye by the lawe written partly not written but neyther waye anye povver is gyuen to Kyngs in Ecclesiasticall causes This argumeÌ„t M. SauÌ„ders is like the hopping of a reuÌ„d that from the law of the new Testament went about to infirme it by the lawe of nature and so fetching a circumquaque commeth in again with this conclusion that it is not by the law of the newe Testament So that where we thought we had procéeded â—…urder wée are nowe where wée were before But to let goe the