us or with any that know and believe the Scriptures but they imply That if Adam was under a covenant of works do this and live then he should not have lived when he was in innocency till he had done some thing to merit life Rep. The mistake of this is shewed above in that that covenant was not for the first giving but for the continuance of his life in the favour of God and that though he could not merit by any works and obedience was to be continued upon his working that that was good sinlesly otherwise he was to die as appeared in that he lost it by his sinning and fell under death from which that covenant afforded no Redemption as the covenant in Christ doth so that we have not spoken ignorantly as they charge us but the ignorance is found with them that confound what covenant Adam was under with what was given to the people of Israel for convincement of their sin when fallen The covenant of works or Law as given to fallen man in the hand of a Mediator entred because of transgression till the seed came and so was given with subordination to the covenant of grace even the grace of God in the Redeemer from the fall and the death that came by sin as the naturall death also did though they erroneously imply the contrary and no marvaile for if that death be by sin then there must be a Redemption out of that death and so a Resurrection of the body from it which seeing they deny how can they grant it comes in by sin and that the seed should Redeem the creature out of it So that herein also their iniquity and corrupt judgement is seen and the root of their deniall that the naturall death came in by sin namely their deniall of the Redemption by Christ from that death and so the Resurrection of the body from it as after will more appear so that here Reader we have a complication of errours in them Thus much to their defence of their first errour about their sinlesness let us see how they defend their second Our second charge of them was about the personall body of Christ in which he suffered which that it is ascended into Heaven the Heavens without all men and above the clouds opposed to the visible earth we say they would not be brought to acknowledge touching which whether we questioned severall times altering our words as they charge us let them judge that read our book But they say W. and F. We contradict our selves because we say that they said the same body that suffered was glorified at Gods right hand in heaven Rep. Nay not unless by that body and that Heaven we say they meant as we expressed in our question which we said they did not and they in their book clearly manifest the truth of what we therein said so that it 's but another falshood added to the former to say that we are stifled in our own confusion and another yet to say that we charge them ignorantly with what they meant for here they plainly say W. and F. It appears we hold Christ hath two bodies in telling of a mysticall body and not receiving that as in answer that his body is the Church the fulness of him that filleth all in all and in that from our words they say we would have Christ to have a body besides or distinct from the fulness of God when as the Scripture doth not say that Christ hath two bodies or that his body is a body of flesh and bones without the blood in it as they say we told them Rep. See here Reader did we ignorantly charge them that by the body they said was glorified in Heaven they meant his Church do not they here speak it out while they tax us with holding Christ hath two bodies because we say he hath his personall body in which he suffered and which he shewed to have flesh and bones in it as a Spirit hath not And is it more absurd for Christ to have in two senses a body or two bodies in different senses of the word body then for the believer to have two heads in two distinct senses hath not George Whitehead and the rest each of them their personall head in which they have tongues with which they smite them that are more righteous then themselves And if they were believers in truth should they not have Christ for their head too And why then may not Christ have a body of his own as a man the man Christ Jesus in which he shewed his Disciples flesh and bones and yet have a body mysticall or body signifying a Church society or congregation as he is the Ruler and Governour of them and in them by his Spirit And doth not the Scripture set forth both these to us as distinct bodies though those very words two bodies it hath not was it his body the Church in which he shewed his Disciples his flesh and bones hands and feet that were pierced with Nailes and in which he bare our sins on the tree And was it his personal body for which Paul filled up the remainder of the sufferings Col. 1. 24. Is there not expresly the body of his flesh mentioned Col. 1. 22. In which he reconciled us to God his now glorious body in the Heavens to which the body of his Church is to be fashioned into the likeness of it Phil. 3. 20. 21. And the body his Church Col. 1. 24. See here how these men broadly deny Christ as man and onely make him a Spirit filling the Church and so the Spirit and the Church to be Christ and is not that all the Christ they confess now to be And whereas they say we would have Christ to have a body besides and distinct from the fulness of God Col. 2. 9. We say we acknowledge a body in which dwells the fulness of the Godhead which we say is distinct from the fulness of the Godhead that dwells in it and is distinct too from the Church the fulness it is not said of God as God but of him that filleth all in all that is of Christ as Mediator in the power of God Ephes 4. 9 10. Yet that his body is a body of flesh and bones in Heaven without blood in it we determined not but that that body of flesh and bones or in which he shewed his Disciples flesh and bones is ascâ—nded up into Heaven and he as in it is glorified against which they reason thâ—â— W. and F. It 's not proper to say a body of flesh and bones is in the Heavens as if it were in many places at once for Heavens are more then one a silly reason for by that reason it 's not proper to say a body of flesh and bones is in the waters or a stone sinks in the waters for waters are more then one Heaven and Heavens are indifferently used in the Singular or Plurall number as water and waters be as we
however sinful yet say they have no sin And count themselves Lords and disdain to have any over them and judge revile and likely would destroy if in their power at their pleasure this principle leads to it But it is manifest the sence and import of the word is according to the businesse the Apostle is treating of and his scope and end therein And that is as beforesaid for no man hath seen God at any time but he hath manifested himself in his love and his love to us in the gift of his Son and this declared in the Gospel that being believed we might love him and one another And such as have so received the Gospel he makes his instruments according to the measure of his Grace received to declare it to others and they that in Faith and love so do are in their measure in this respect as he in this World as Scripture also elsewhere sheweth they being by his Grace framed to his mind are set to pursue his designe And so 1. They are his Ministers of his Word and Grace put into their hearts and so in his place and stead to bear forth his Name and carry on his work and he by them displayes his love and beseeches men and convinces and brings in to himself and so they are the Light of the World and edisiers of their brethren in the World 2 Cor. 5. 14. 21. and 6. 1. 2. Mat. 5. 14 15 16 Phil. 2. 15. 16. Thes 5. 11. And so they are as he is in this World though he be still above them They Ministring the Epistle of Christ and he by his Spirit therein writing it in their hearts 2 Cor. 3. 2 and 3. 6. 2. As any of the World receive their Testimony so they receive the Spirit and Christ therein and loving him they love them for his sake and being won out of the fellowship of the World they come into onenesse in love fellowship and approbation with Christ and them and as Christ owneth and approveth and delights in them their Faith love fellowship c. So do these for Christ his sake also and so according to their measure they are as he in this World Mat. 10. 40. 41 42. Luke 10. 16. John 13. 20. 2 Thes 1. 10. 2 Cor. 3. 2. 3. Phil. 4. 1. 3. As any of the World refuse and dispise them in and for their Testimony born forth with Gracious Words and Deeds they refuse and dispise Christ and as they defame hate persecute them so they defame hate and persecute Christ and so as he is so are we in this World Luke 10. 16. Acts 9. 4 7. John 15. 18. And with the two former this last sence is especially here meant Now knowing this that as he is received known loved by any in the World so are we And as he is unknown dispised hated persecuted in his Doctrine and judged by any of the World so are we 1 John 3. 1 This gives us boldnesse in the day of judgement upholds and makes us fearlesse in such incus revilings condemnings judgings and affords us strong consolation that when he comes to Judge he will justifie us that were condemned for his Truth and condemn them that condemn us for it Surely George and John Whiteheads and George Fox intended us no such consolation against all their revilings and judgings of the Truth and us but any impartial Reader may see their miserable wrestings and abuse of this place upon which we have been the larger Reader for thy instruction and helpfulnesse it being a Scripture much made use of by them as countenancing their conceit of their sinlesnesse and we being very brief to things in our following answer in the rest we shall be briefer 3. Quoting 1 John 2. 1. in their p. 3. My little Children these things writ I to you that you sin not and if any man sin we have an Advocate They stop their leaving out and he is the Propitiation for our sins which plainly imports that the Apostles and Believers he couples himself with owned that they had sins when he so writ in that he says not he was onely but he is the propitiation for our sins what but fraudulency and shuning of the Light there was in their so quoting it 4. Quoting Prov. 20. 9. fore quoted by us they p. 3. leave out the last clause too viz. Who can say I am pure from my sins because directly making against their wrong apprehension of their sinlessenesse 5. Their nonsencical glosses put upon that Text Eccles 7. 20. and 1 Kings 8. 46 in their pages 3. and 4. Thou mayest see spoken to by us p. 6. So also their wrong reading of Ephes 5. 30. adding to it of their own heads p. 9. thou mayest see spoken to p. 7. Likewise whereas in Phil. 3. 21. it is said our conversation is in Heaven whence we look for a Saviour they turn it about and say there not thence they looked for the Saviour 8. Their like abuse of Acts 17. 11 â—2 thou hast it spoken too p. These amongst many other may suffice to shew what abusers of the Scriptures they be at their pleasure in their quotations of them and glosses upon them 3. They maintain their false conceits by falacious or sencelesse reasoning syllogizings and inferences as at the dispute at Lin George Whitehead to prove all sin to be guil brought this falacy All sin is a transgression of the Law guile is a transgression of the Law therefore guile is all sin which any that understand the rules of Syllogismes know to be a Paralogisme or false reasoning such as the Apostle in the Greek Text of Col. 2. 4. Expresly faults and warns us of and in their Book G. W. turning about denying and falsifying his own former Syllogisme sets down a more vitious and corrupt Argument then it to beguile the simple with being but his own and his brethrens three wayes asserting the same thing in divers formes or with very little alteration and that without any Scripture proof for any of them viz. Every transgression of the Law is guile or sin and all guile includes all transgression of the Law therefore every sin is guile Like as if one should prove every Beast to be an Asse thus Every Beast is an Asse or a living Creature and all Asses includes all Beasts Therefore every Beast Foxes and Wolves to as an Asse p. 5. Again in the same page they prove all sin to be guile thus Any one sin makes a man guilty and so he hath guile in him a foolish inconsequence as if guile and guilt were one and the same thing whereas George Whitehead being a Scholler knows the contrary and therefore therein he wilfully playes the Jesuite or Sophester to delude the Ignorant with seeming like tearmes So pag. 1. to prove the perfection of sinlessenesse in themselves they say the perfection of sinlessenesse is in the witnesse of God as if that and themselves were one and the same and pag. 6.
perfect in knowledge and then they are wretchedly unhappy that take them for Oracles that are so ignorant If they know this then dealt they guilfully and intended to deceive simple ignorant people that cannot distinguish things that differ by their Sophistry and then the case of their followers is yet more wretched which things being so 4. Their conclusion cannot follow from those premises viz. So that he that had no guile in him had no sin in him but the contrary so that he that had no guile in him might have ignorance and other sins in him G. W. They accuse J. H. also of turning George Whiteheads words in saying he said guile is a transgression of the law therefore guile is all sin which they say is falsly framed and that the words were to this effect Every transgression of the law is guile or sin and all guile includes all transgression of the law therefore every sin is guile Rep. I call God and men to witness whither George Whitehead be not herein a notorious lyer who hath shamefully turned his own words and belyed both himself and me why else should I match it and detect his Sophistry in his syllogisme by this as like it all sin is a transgression of the law but lying is transgression of the law therefore lying is all sin It is true that syllogism of his was falsly framed and so much I told him then but it was of his own framing nor does he repeate it here as I writ it rightly and as he framed it but leaves out the word all in the minor and the whole major proposition as any that compare our books may discern And when they say their words were to suâ—â— effect as they repeat why say they not directly they were their words may they not as boldly lye and falsifie in one thing as in another and what kind of argument have they framed here sure as corrupt as that he framed then for here is but onely the same falshood affirmed in three severall forms of words to the same sense and none of them proved and yet they would infer the last form of them from the two former just like this every transgression of the law is anger or sin and all anger includes all transgression therefore every sin is anger but why saies the first proposition every transgression of the law is guile or sin t is true it s one of them if their or disjoyn then they distinguish sin and guile if it but explicate then they beg the question instead of proving it Oh! Lord deliver this Nation and the poor ignorant people from such sophisters as these be that lead men to destruction They aske G. W. What sin can we prove that Nathaniel had in him when he had no guile in him and tell us we must prove some sin then in him or see our selves confuted Rep. They may as well say seeing the Scripture witnesses that the children of Korah dyed not in the judgement that befell Korah and his company what disease dyed they of and if we cannot prove that they dyed of some disease then we are confuted if we believe and hold that they dyed For as there are many diseases they might dye of though not in that judgement so there be divers sins besides guile secret sins distinct from presumptuous sins as David implies Psal 19. 1. When they tell us what were those secret sins David prayed to be cleansed from distinct from presumptuous sins then may we tell them what sins Nathaniel had distinct from guile David implies sins in them though forgiven and covered in whose Spirits is no guile Psal 32. 1 2. Which we also quoted and that will save us from being confuted though we can prove no one particular sin in Nathaniell but that Scripture they skip over in silence as afraid to meddle with it because thereby they are confuted To our Quotation of Ed. Borroughs saying that saints upon earth may be perfectly freed from the body of sin and death and our concluding them from their doctrine of sinlesness to be deceivers They say W. and F. Here we might as well have accused the true Prophets and Apostles Rep. It seems then by their own intimation they be not such but false Prophets and Apostles what needed that word true by way of distinction of them from themselves else if not to imply that they also be Prophets and Apostles but not true Mind this Reader and beware of them then for say they they witnessed to the same the Quakers witnesse to Rep. Here they own themselves Quakers too so that we may call them lawfully so whereas they traduce us by many Nick names that we own not as Moorians Manifestarians Freewillers c. Did the true Apostles and Prophets ever so nickname their Opponents as these false ones do But let us see their proof that the true Apostles and Prophets witnessed to the same things that the untrue ones the Quakers do They adde as said the Prophet Blessed are the undefiled in the way they also do no iniquity Psal 119. 1 2 3. And saith the Lord ye shall be clean from all your filthiness Ezek. 36. 25. And Christ exhorted his to be perfect as their heavenly Father is perfect Math. 5. 48. And every one that is perfect shall be as his Lord and the same Apostle who said ye are compleat in Christ said also in whom ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh Col. 2. 10. 11. Rep. Here is no place yet saies that either those Holy men themselves or any others then living were without sin in themselves which is the thing should have been proved 1. As for the Prophet David lived not he under the old Testament as well as Solomon whose saying there is no man that sinneth not they would therewith have eluded but undefiled in the way may signifie either in Christ who is the way John 14. 6. And that we granted or in the way of their walking so as Zachariah and Elizabeth were blameless in their walking in all the statutes and commandements of the Lord and yet Zachary had sin in him which discovered it self when tried with the vision for he believed not the Angel and therefore was punished with blindness Luke 1. 6. 20. And they do no iniquity perverse evil as the word signifies is all one with they do not commit sin yet even such as do not commit sin have sin in them yea and with their flesh serve the Law of sin as we may read Rom. 7. 20. 25. 2. In that of Ezek 36. 25. They confound things distinguished for it is not said as they quote it in one and the same period you shal be clean from all your filthiness but the words are distinguished thus I will sprinkle clean water upon you and you shall be clean there 's a half stop and then follows from all your filthiness and from all your
9. speaks of his having descended into the lower parts of the earth as may further appear by comparing it with that prediction of our Saviour Mat. 12. 40. as the fulfilling of it is opened by Peter Acts 2. 24. 27. 31. He was made sin and made a curse for us yea he dyed and was buried wonderful was his abasement and humiliation for us and the more wonderful considering the excellency of the person who so willingly humbled and abased himself and what we were for whom he did it the greater the sin of the enemies of his Cross that seek to render it as a common or prophane thing as if of no more worth or preciousnesse then the blood or Sufferings of or sustained in and by other persons may be and so wretchedly strive to abase him that abased himself for them But God hath mightily declared him to be the Son of God by raising him from the dead in the same body the third day for his Soul that was made an offering for sin was not left in bell neither did his flesh see corruption and in that body he is ascended and the Father hath exalted and received him even him whom they crucified slew and hung on a Tree the same that these men also crucifie to themselves and put to an open shame seeking to cast him down from his excellency Q. 5 W. and F. And if he which descended into the lower parts of the earth be a person of flesh and bones which ascended far above all Heavens What is that place he is in far above all Heavens which is not Heaven Answ It is not so hard to find confusion and non-sence in this Supposition and Querie grounded upon it as it is to find so much plainnesse and honesty as by which it may be understood what they mean or require answer to But the intention of this Querie by comparing it with the rest of their confusions of this nature appears to be First To suppose or implie this as the question Whether he that ascended up far above all Heavens be a person of flesh and bones the same that descended into the lower parts of the earth and then by that which follows as the main querie in this question to enforce a Negative answer by rendering the acknowledgement of that Person as being in that his own body in Heaven it self absurd and foolish because they think in their foolish imagination that to acknowledge him to be so in Heaven and yet also far above all Heavens cannot stand together Their inward thought its like is by these perverse disputings to draw us into some snare or confusion that they may glory over us and get advantage to insinuate to such as will listen to them that the plain declarations of these things concerning the Man Christ Jesus in the Scriptures are but cunningly Devised fables that must have some other Moral or Mysterie according to the Sensual or fleshly mind in which they are vainly puft up not holding the head however we shall put it to the issue giving our answers plainly and without hidden things of dishonesty as those that have received a word of truth a faithful saying worthy to be stuck too and of which we are not ashamed And so first to their supposition laid down as the ground of their following querie If he which descended c. be a person of flesh and bones To this we say first we know no person made up or wholly consisting of flesh and bones much lesse is his who is God man the onely begotten Son of God even as now made flesh and so as the Son of Man John 1. 14. now glorified with the Fathers own Self as the Fruits of his Sufferings for in him Col. 2. 9. dwelleth all the fulnesse of the God head bodily Joh. 17. 4 5. Therefore we reject their absurb expression as foolish and impious proceeding from their scorn of him and enmity to him though they in reproach and derision of us for his Sake would intimate it as ours as a little before that other expression not altogether so grosse as this a body of flesh and bones to which having spoken already we add no more to this But further assert in answer to their querie implyed in the Supposition That the Son of Man even Christ of the Seed of David Abraham yea of Noah and Adam after the flesh in that body of his flesh prepared for him when he came into the World in which he was sent forth made of a Woman made under the Law he being found in fashion as a man in the likenesse of sinsul flesh though without sin and in the form of a Servant did also descend into the lower parts of the earth even in the two last sences of the lower parts of the earth before mentioned For as Jonas was three dayes and three nights in the belly of the Whale so was the Son of Man in his finishing the works the Father gave him to do on the earth three dayes and three nights in the heart of the earth Mat. 12. 40. In that Body of his flesh he bore the Judgement of this World even that due to us for sin in which he was made for a time the banished or forsaken one and his Soul therein made an offering for our sin John 12. 27. 31. with Isa 53. 10 Luke 22. 42. 44. Psal 22. 1. c. with Mat. 37. 46. Mark 15. 34. in that his own Body himself bare our sins on the tree 1 Pet. 2. 24. and 3. 18. and once Suffered for Sins the just for the unjust being put to death in the flesh he dyed for our Sins according to the Scriptures and was buried 1 Cor. 15. 3 4. yea farther we assert with the Scriptures that Christ of the Seed of David after the flesh he even the same that dyed and was buried rose again the third day according to the Scriptures for if the dead rise not then is not Christ risen for though it was in or after the flesh that he dyed and was buried yet by reason of the inseparable union of the two natures in one person the word being made flesh It was Christ that died and was buried and therefore also it was not possible that he should be holden of Death 1 Cor. 15. 3 4. 12. 16. Acts 2. 22. 24. His soul was not left in hell neither did his flesh see corruption as Davids did but God raised him the third day even him whom they flew and hung on a tree and took down from the tree and laid in a Sepulcher God raised him from the dead and shewed him openly not to all the people but to witnesses chosen before of God even to those last Apostles who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead Acts 10. 39. 40 41. and 13. 29. 30 31 37. To whom he shewed himself alive after his passion even himself that suffered to death in the flesh alive after his suffering by many
given and broken for us and so alwayes to be remembered and fed upon by us Luke 22. 19. 1 Cor. 11 24. John 6. 5â— Again by his Blood as distinguished from his flesh is meant that blood of his Crosse which was shed for us for the Remission of sins Col â— 14. 20. Mat. 26. 28. Not only nor so directly his being sometime partakers of material and mortal blood in that body of his flesh that is included in the forementioned sence of his flesh as distinguished from his blood and when mentioned together with it such blood being in and with his flesh all the dayes of his mortallity untill his death in which it was so fully shed forth and powered out that water followed but by his blood as distinct from his flesh is directly meant his humbling himself to that death in the finishing of his sufferings wherein that blood in which was his natural life in the flesh as of man was shed and so therein his Soul or Life in the flesh powered out yeilded up and laid down for our sins that were caused to meet together upon him that so he might by means of that his death in the flesh take his Life again in the Power of God and live for ever in the Glory of his Father even in that raised body of his flesh And this is very usual in the Scripture by blood to signifie the shedding of blood to Death or the natural and bodily death by any other means so Abels death by Cain called his blood Gen. 4. 10. with Heb. 12. 24. So Naboths death by stoning called his blood 2 Kings 9. 2â— generally the Martyrdom and death of the Servants of God for his sake 2 Kings 9. 7. Deut. 32. 43. Psal 72. 14. with Psal 116. 15. Yea the natural or bodily Death however it come on a man is called his blood Psal 30. 9. Heb. 12. 4. So also that by Christs own blood the blood of his Crosse by which peace was made Redemption obtained and so by which he entered into Heaven it self and so by the Spirituall sprinkling of which in the Preaching of the Crosse he purgeth the conscience is meant his Death his shedding of his blood his once suffiring even to the death of the Crosse his being put to death in the flesh see it in the foreceited Scriptures Col. 1. 14 20. Mat. 26. 28. with Phil. 2. 8. 1 Pet. 2. 24 and 3. 18. so also in Heb 9. 2. 14. with ver 15 16. 22. 26. Again Secondly By the distinct mention of his flesh and blood is signified some distinct considerations of the ends and powerfull efficacies of his own suffering in that body of his flesh for our sins As 1. For making peace and atonement with God for our sins in which we have all sinned in the disobedience of one and in which we are from thence become altogether filthy and as such justly banished and dead at Law and so it s said he gave his flesh for the life of the World and by suffering the judgement of this World and being made a Curse for us he hath abolished death obtained a Redemption and release of mankinde from under the power of that judgement that came on all in and by the first man Adam and so from the curse of the Law to be under his dispose and judgement by whom the Kingdom of God is brought unto us that through him we might be saved As the offence of one was unto all to condemnation so the Righteousnesse of one in laying down his Life that he might take it again is unto all to Justification of Life from under the power of the first death and banishment that they may not perish therein or be held out from God thereby but that they might live to him that dyed for them and rose again Rom. 5. 18. 2 Cor. 5. 1â— 15. 19. Col. 1. 20. John 6. 51. and 12. 31 32. Gal. 3. 13. 11. His shedding of his blood laying down his Life or powering out his Soul unto death for our sins was also to obtaine into himself for us a better life yea better then that we lost in the first Adam even Eternal Life Yea all fulnesse of all things pertaining to life and Godlinesse even the fulnesse of the Godhead bodily that of his fulnesse we might receive And so the immeasurable fulnesse of that Holy and Eternal Spirit to rest upon him in that body in which he so suffered that he should Teach sinners in the way and guide the meek in Judgement Yea further he hath by his blood or by means of that his death which was for the Redemption of the Transgressions under the first Testament obtained plentious and Eternal Redemption even the forgivenesse of such sins as are after the similitude of Adams transgression he hath received power in the name of the Father and as the fruit of his sufferings to take away such sins by his dayly appearing in the presence of God for us and so all such gifts as may serve for the good of the Rebellious while it is to day for forbearing and renewing mercies to them that yet through him they might be saved and that he might be just and the Justifier of him that believeth in Jesus even from such sins yea from all things from which they could not be justified by the Law of Moses And so he is a Saviour from the wrath to come being now by means of his death a Mediator and propitiation for such sins as deserve it John 17. 4 5. 1 John 5. 11. Heb. 9. 12. Col. 1. 14. 19. and 2. 9. Acts 2. 33. Psal 68. 18 19. with Ephes 4. 8. 10. Heb. 9. 15. 1 Thes 1. 10. 1 John 2. 2. He was bruised wounded and put to death in the body of his flesh for our transgressions that through death he might abolish death in his Resurrection and make such peace and healing for us that through him we might be delivered and saved that were all our life time through fear of death subject to bondage Yea therefore also he shed his blood and powered out his Soul unto death that he might by vertue thereof obtaine and receive into himself a better even Eternal life for us with all such gifts for men yea for the Rebellious also as was needful that yet while it is to day they might be brought back to God and that he might be able to save to the utmost them that come to God by him 2. This his flesh and his blood was evidenced to be meat indeed and drink indeed for men spiritually to feed upon by the Resurrection of Christ from the dead and his offering up his spotlesse body a Ransom or price of Redemption once for all as being made perfect through sufferings and his being accepted and set down on the Right hand of God and Glorified with the Fathers own self Immeasurebly filled with all gifts in the man for men as before we have shewed all as the fruit of
A Fuller Discovery OF THE Dangerous Principles And lying spirit of the People called Quakers made manifest in George Whitehead John Whitehead and George Fox the younger In their Book against Iohn Horne and Thomas Moore of Lin Regis in NORTHFOLK Written by the said Thomas Moore and Iohn Horne for the fuller satisfaction of all such as desire to be further satisfied about the evil and erroniousnesse of the said People called Quakers Most men will proclame every man his own goodnesse but a faithful man to Christ and his Cause who can find Prov. 20. 6. I marvel yee are so soon removed from him that called you not into your selves but into the grace of Christ unto another Gospel which is not another but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the Gospel of Christ But though we even Apostles or an Angel from heaven persons of most Angel-like carriage and appearance preach any other Gospel unto you as the following Discourse shews that these Quakers do then that which we the Apostles have preached unto you let him be accursed Gal. 1. 6 7 8. LONDON Printed for John Allein at the signe of the Rising Sun in Pauls Church-yard 1660. THE EPISTLE TO THE READER ONce more we have herein presented thee Courteous Reader with a discovery of the People called Quakers in which thou mayest see from their own written and printed sayings by what manner of spirit they be led and what manner of Doctrine they publish and strive to maintain and indeed the naughtinesse of their way is made manifest partly by their Principles and Doctrines broachedly them and partly by the manner of their carriage in their managing and maintaining them Wee shall give thee here a brief account of both in a few Observations 1 For the Doctrines and Principles maintained by them thou mayest observe in their Queries sent us printed with our Answers to them at the close of our Answer to their Book against us as hintâ—d and in their book more clearly asserted or implyed these following viz. I. That Christ hath no other body but his Church no personal body and so that that body of his flesh in which he suffered and bare our sins and which rose again is not a body or is not in being Book pag. 7 8 9. answered by us in our Reply pag. 25. to pa. 42. and Quest 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 10 11. II. That the blood of Jesus Christ or his personal abasement sufferings in the flesh to the shedding and pouring out his blood and soul to Death sustained by him once in the end or last Ages of the World are not the foundation or of the foundation of their faith so that their faith is not faith in Christs blood as so considered nor is that precious blood or those sufferings of Christ that wherewith their conscience is purged or the spiritual drink of the soul but some other thing principle or spirit in men which they put the Name of the blood of Christ upon See if this conceit or Doctrine in both parts of it negative and affirmative be not hinted in their Quest 12 13 14. seeing the body of his flesh in which he suffered they deny to remain and yet say his blood is in his flesh what can they mean by his flesh but something of his Church which onely they grant to be his body and so that his blood is nothing but some seed principle or sufferings in his Church their pleading against his blood or suffering as the foundation or of the foundation of Faith thou mayst see in their book p. 14 15 16 17. answered by us here p. 52 53 54 c. III. That the lower parts of the earth into which Christ descended and the heavens into which he again ascended are no local places but some conditions or conceits in men Qu. 3 4 5 6â— Book p. 8 9. answered by us p. 26 27 33. IV. That the same body that dies shall not rise again in the Resurrection Book p. 10 11. Answered by us p. 42 to 46. and Quest 16 17. V. That the souls of the wicked shall not come out Hell at the great day of the Resurrection and judgement to be further judged they imply Quest 18. and so that neither the souls nor the bodies of the wicked shall rise again to judgement VI. That that coming of Christ in which the dead in him shall be raised and be caught up into the Ayr together to meet him and be ever with him and in which he shall descend from heaven with a short and the sound of the trumpet c. mentioned 1 Thess 4. 15 16. is already long since past For they say the Apostles and Believers of that Age in which the Apostle wrote remained to it Book p. â— Answered p. 32. Quest 15. and so they agree with Hymeneus and Philetus that said the Resurrection is already past 2 Tim. 16. to 18. VII That the Christ we look for to come from heaven again they desire not the knowledge of Book p. 10. Answered p. 41. VIII That they are sinless or have no sin in them they deny not and that those that are believers in Christ and born of God are perfectly freed from sin as to the being of it in them Book p. 1 to 6. and yet that the little children that John wrote to who were also born of God and know the Father might have sin in them Ans p. 9 10. to p. 24. IX That all sin is guide when as the scripture distinguishes guile from other sins and other sins from guile 1 Pet. 2. â— and sayes some have no guile in their spirits who yet have sins though forgiven and covered yet there to be covered Psalm 32. 1. 2. Book p. 4. 5. Answ p. 17 18. X. That Adam might have died the natural death if he had not sinned and so that the bodily or natural death came not in by sin Book p. 6 7. Ans p. 23. XI That Christ came not to redeem men from out of the natural or bodily death B. p. 7. Ans p. 25. XII That our faith that is not grounded in Christs appearing in us is to be turned up by the roots and so by consequence that all the faith that is grounded in Christs appearing and suffering for us without us and in his appearing in heaven for us and so such faith as that of the Elect mentioned Rom. 8. 33 34 35. is by these mens Doctrines to be rooted up Book p. 10. Ans p. 41 42. XIII That the Apostles and all that were led by the spirit of God c. witnessed the Redemption of the body spoken of Rom. 8. 23. when they were upon the earth and did not put it afar off as they deridingly phrase the looking and waiting for it till after death in which they say again in effect that the resurrection of the believers body is made in this life Book p 11 12. Ans p. 47 48 XIV That the knowledge
God by whom all things were made So there was not nor ever was or will be any other man or Angel like him and so as he was and is John 1. 1 2 3. Col 1. 15 16. Phil. 2. 7. 2. He saith not as he was when the Word was made flesh in Vnion of Person with the Son of God Gods onely Son his first begotten and first born God-man in one Person John 1. 14. 18. Mat. 1. 23. So is no man else 3. He saith not as he is now at Gods Right hand in his body glorified by virtue of that he did here on the Earth in his personal sufferings for so he is the Lord of all Angels Powers and Authorities being made subject to him 1 Pet. 3. 22. alive and living for evermore and hath the Keys of Hell and Death Rev. 1. 18. Yea so he is the Christ exalted a Prince and Saviour to give Repentance and Remission of sins Acts 2. 36. and 5. 31 32. The great High Priest and King that hath all Power in Heaven and Earth given to him Heb. 7. and 8. Mat. 28. 18. The fulnesse of the God-head dwelling in him bodily Col 2. 9 10. The Mediator of God and man 1 Tim. 2. 5. The Way the Truth the Life John 14. 6. The recoverer of Man-kind the second Man the last Adam who is made a quickening Spirit Rom 5. 14. 18. Gal. 3. 13. 14. and 4. 4. 1 Cor. 15. 45 to 49. The Saviour of the World and propitiation for the sins of the whole World 1 John 2. 2. and 4. 14. The Authour of Faith and of Salvation Heb. 12. 2. and 5. 9. The caller of all Isa 45. 22. The Head and Husband of the Church and special Advocate of believers Ephes 5. 26. and 1. 22. 23. 1 John 2. 1. So he is and was so as there never was is or will be found another in these respects as he to do that which and as he hath done and to be by virtue thereof as and what he is 4. He saith not as he is in himself in his own person and for the work done by him and excellency in him in the estimate will and love of God his Father so and in the same manner and sence are we Not so for it hath pleased the Father that in him all fulnesse should dwell and that in all things he should have the preheminence Col. 1. 18 19. And so likewise is he in the esteem of the true Church 2 Cor. 4. 5. Col. 3. 11. So as no other is as he much lesse upon the account of any thing done in and by them 5. He saith not as he shall appear at his coming again so are we in this World no that is denied by the Apostle for in that respect we are dead and our life hid with Christ in God and such conformity to him is not here to be enjoyed but waited for till his glorious appearing 1 John 3. 2. Col. 3. 3 4. none yet so as he is Phil. 3. 12. and 20 21. 6. He saith not simply as he is so are we not so for he is the mighty God Tiâ— 2. 13. God over all blessed for ever Rom. 9. 5. God-man in one person John 1. 14. Mat. 1. 23. He by whom the Worlds are upheld Heb. 1. 3. And by him God will raise and judge all men Rom. 2. 16. None therefore so as he in such respects 7. Nor saith he as he was in the World so are we though in some respects that be true He when here in weaknesse here on Earth was then Immanual the onely begotten Son of God the Saviour of the World So no other none so impowered to give forth the Gospel and appoint new Ordinances to be used as he was we may onely receive declare and use what he gave forth and appointed Yet as he when on Earth preached that Gospel and suffered shame and reproach for so doing and was humble meek loving patient and constant to the death in so doing So it becomes us to do and be that we may therein be like him John 15. 1â— 22. Ephes 5. 1. 2. 1 Pet. 2. 22. And so in living by Faith so as he but this Text speaks in a more proper Language for incouragement And so 8. He saith plainly not of others but of themselves the Apostles and those unfained believers that were one with them in the same Faith as he is so are we in this World He had before declared the foundation and Gods love commended therein as the ground of confidence and love vers 9. 10 11. like that in Rom. 5. 1. 10. And how by the abiding of this love in us God dwells in us and his love is perfected in us vers 7 8. 12 13. And then affirming that they had seen and did Testifie that the Father sent the Son the Saviour of the World vers 1â— and how they had known and believed the same commended through him and how they that have believed and dwell in that love dwell in God and God in them vers 15 16. He adds herein is love with us or our love made perfect he saith not so perfect as there is no fear in us because there is none in love but that perfect love casteth out fear c. doth dayly or continually cast it out as it riseth in us that so we may have boldnesse in the day of Judgement And giveth this as the reason because as he is which can here be no other then as he is in the publication and demonstrations of him in the Gospel approved and received or dispised and rejected so are we in the declaration and holding forth of this message approved or rejected in this World which is sutable to that foretold by our Saviour Mat. 10. 40. Luke 10. 16. Again as he used comparatively signifies not in every respect nor in the fulnesse of measure as may be seen Mat. 10. 16. Gal. â— 12. Rev. 16 15. And so here Not as he by his omnipotent power upholding the Heavens and the Earth and ruling amongst all for ever making his counsel to take place upholding his Church in the World c. Not as be is in his omniscience in the World seeing all things and beholding the hearts thoughts and wayes of all men not as he in his Perfection of Holinesse and Righteousnesse as inherently found in us He is yet about that work to bring his Church to that that he may in his season present them so to himself Ephes 5. 26 27. 1 Thes 5. 23 24. Acts 3 19 20 21. Because of his perfect Righteousnesse and Power vengence belongs to him and he may punish and cut off at his pleasure not so we Rom. 12. 19. So that such an assuring to be like him as thâ—se imply in such perfection of sinlessnesse applying it to themselves is to aspire to such a likenesse to and equality with God as the Serpent tempted Eve to And no marvel if such be high conceited of themselves and
to prove that Adam might have died the natural death though he had not sinned they argue as thus Because Christ who had no sin not considering that Christ had our sins laid upon him and for them he died but Adam should have had no sin laid upon him or imputed to him had he not sinned himself But such like reasonings are too many to number up in them 4. They carry on their false designs and doctrines with lies and falshood most frequently as in saying often that we accuse the Saints and plead for sin p. 2 3 4 5. And in belying J. H. in saying that he turned G. Ws. words about his false Syllogisme above mentioned when as all that were at the dispute and heard and remembred his words may remember they were word for word as John Horn relates them Yea and in belying his own words in saying they were such as they indeed were not Again in saying we might as well have accused the true Prophets and Apostles with being Preachers of lies and deceivers as the Quakers and that the same Spirit in us that hath accused the Quakers with being deceivers that is the Spirit of Truth would have accused the true Prophets Christ and his Apostles for being deceivers page 5. That we contradict our selves in many things where we have made it we have made it evident there is no contradiction That we look for a Christ like our selves but that he hath no Blood in his Body as we imagine p. 10. That our expecting the Redemption of the Body to be waited for aster Death is contrary to the Saints expectations p. 11. and 12. In which words is both equivocation and falshood that what the Scriptures say of Christ and his Body they own in which they also either equivocate or say falsly or both they equivocate if by owning they mean as probably they do they own it as true of themselves the Quakers as if the things spoken of Christ and his Church are verified in and of them and may be affirmed of them Or if by owning they mean they believe and hold them true concerning Jesus of Nazareth and them that believe on him to be saved through the virtue of his sufferings Sacrifice and Mediation then they say falsly Yea whether this or the former be their meaning they are false therein as our reply makes manifest to the impartial Reader But who can number up their lies and falshoods in falsifying our sayings and otherwise which the following Reply will further evidence He that will procure and search and compare what Christopher Wade of Water-beach hath written against them with their writings against him may see a whole dozen of notorious lies of George Foxes clearly proved against him to which G. W. in his answer gives the go by most egregiously and in none of them disproves him 5. They misrelate and give the go-by to many of our charges and sayings as for instance We quoted Jam. 3. 2. to prove all believers here to have sin or sometime to offend to this they say nothing onely quote the place and give it the go-by telling us onely that James exhorted men to let patience have its perfect work c. Which is nothing to the purpose p. 3. So what we said of the Nature of man as it is in Christ discharged of sin Law and Death in his Resurrection p. 10. Of our former Book that they represent it as if we had said it of the Nature and being of man as in us to be discharged in our Resurrection p. 11. And whereas we charged them with denying the Humanity of Christ as to its being now in him they give it the go-by answering onely that they never denied the Man Christ for his flesh is their food p. 14. Whereas they had before denied him to have any other Body then his Church p. 8. And to our saying that Christ is not really and personally in the believer as in Heaven but by Faith they let go the words personally and as in Heaven in their answer and traduce us as denying any real being of him by Faith in the believer p. 14. More such like dealings thou mayst find in p. 15. and 18. and divers others 6. They carry their designes by reproaches Nick-names and abusive expressions in which also much hatred malice and spite against us is made evident to be in them and so that they are far from sinlessenesse to this purpose it is that in their Title page and Post-script they Nick-name us Calling us 1. Teachers of the People called Moorians or Manifestarians and called by some Free-willers and Independants which what can it proceed from but their hatred of us and indignation against us Seeing 1. The Names we own not nor are the People we Teach so called as Moorians that we know of T. M sen it seems for affirming not of himself as his own but from the Testimony of Christ and his Spirit recorded in the Scriptures that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the World and gave himself a ransom for all men and is by virtue thereof the Mediator of God and men the propitiation for the sins of the whole World and extends to men meanes leading them to Repentance and is ready to receive such as in the means are prevailed with to believe and this a good ground and motive to Repentance Faith Love c. Was by some that opposed those truths standered and called Papists or Arminian and some of the same mind with him in those truths were by means of a certain Manciple in one of the Colledges that turned Almanack-maker and reproachfully devising that Name called Moorians by some drunkards profane and cavilling persons but never owned by him nor by any of his friends much less by us or the people we teach nor do we know of any civil people or others these revilers excepted that say or write of us or of any people that they are the people called Moorians as these men call themselves in divers of their writings the Quakers the people called Quakers which makes it lawful for us also without reproach to give them that name by way of distinction in our speaking or writing of them as the names Herodians Sadduces and Pharisees are given in the Scripture to and were owned by those people 's so called without reproach to them And the rather because the Name Quakers fathers their Doctrine upon no man as the name Moorian doth nor charges it with any particular evil Opinion as the other name Manifestarian and Free-Willers import though had they been thereby wronged and reproached yet the Spirit of Truth would have led them not to return reviling for reviling reproach for reproach and to joyn hands with drunkards and others so that herein they are convicted to be sinners being guilty of reviling As also in that 2. They add or Manifestarians as if Moorian and Manifestarian were the same with them this is another of their spiteful reproaches against
Epistle to the Reader as ours in which they shew their ignorance and deceit they be thus T. Moor say they affirmed That sin is a natural heritage in the beleevers while they be here To which T. Moor saith Ans This is falsly expressed his sayings were That sin is in the beleever as a natural heritage from Adam while he is in this mortal body And in noting this as erroneous they intimately deny the natural uncleanness of man by sin entring into the world by one mans sin and so that all have sinned in him and are fallen short of the glory of God in and unto which they were created Or else with the Papists imagine that its taken away by Baptism or Regeneration so as no more to be in men here But note that T. M. says its in them as a natural heritage from the first natural root fallen Adam in which is implied a distinction between what is the beleevers by nature as a son of the first Adam a man and what is his by grace as in Christ the second Adam and the Apostle tells us That by one man sin entred into the world and death by sin and that it abides in the beleever after beleeving is plain in that Paul says sin dwelt in him even then when he says it was not he that did sin but sin in him Rom. 7. 17 20. For I know that in me that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing there his natural heritage In which also he implies that in his Spirit was that that is good dwelling as also he after says vers 22. and that sin abides not in the beleever till death we find no Scripture saith but the contrary That no man living shall be justified in the sight of God if he enter into judgement with him Psal 143. 2. If no man living but by Gods not entring into judgment with him then no man living here is without sin for if there were though God did enter into judgement with him he should be justified for God certainly cannot in judgment or will not condemn him in whom is no sin so that their ignorance and error herein appears in accusing T. M. of Error herein 2. T. M. say they affirmed that their nature is restored in Christ speaking of their own nature and that their nature is a filthy nature and Christ took upon him their nature Ans This also is falsly expressed and perverted for his sayings were to this effect That the nature or kind of man is perfectly redeemed and restored in one for all even in Christ the second Adam while yet sin is in and death upon the Individuals or particular persons of men for whom such Redemption is obtained in and by Jesus Christ Yea even the beleevers body is yet vile while not changed by death and they all waiting for the redemption of the body but here they confound things together and deal deceitfully they might as well have taxed the Apostle of confusion for saying men by nature do the things contained in the Law Rom. 2. 14. and yet by nature are children of wrath Eph. 2. 3. The word Nature signifies diversly when we say our nature is restored in Christ we speak of the nature or kind of man as it is distinguished from the nature or kind of Angels and other creatures which whole nature by reason of sin committed by it in Adam was fallen under wrath and curse but being assumed by Christ who was made flesh and man and not in the nature or kind of Angels he hath redeemed it even mans nature or being which is ours too inasmuch as we are men and restored it to favour and fellowship with God in himself and yet we say our nature kind or being as in us not in Christ for the same common nature kind or being of man is in every man though in divers persons diversly is corrupt and filthy in it self by reason of sin in it Isai 64. 6. and death upon us further then purified and purged by him yet Christ took upon him our nature as before not as it is filthy in us by sin in it but as it was under bondage to death and ourse without filth in him he being sanctified in his conception so as to be the Holy One even in his Birth Luke 1. 35. whereas others are conceived in sin and shapen in iniquity Psal 51. 5. so that there is neither error nor confusion in what is said by T. M. hereabout but they have mis-related his sayings and therefore tax them because they agree not with their Errors concerning mans natural sinfulness called Original sin and the humanity of Christ denied by them 3. John Horn they say holds that they that had no guile in them had sin in them that every sin is not guile Answ T is well they dared not to put in David with him as holding the same error for he says that man is blessed whose sins are covered and to whom the Lord will not impute sin and in whose spirit there is no guile so then it seems some men in whose spirit is no guile have sins in them though covered and not imputed to them there needs no cover for what is not yet John Horn did not say that every one that had no guile in him had sin in him for he excepts Jesus Christ who neither did sin nor had guile in him not that Principle then but the contradiction of it is the Error 4. T. M. say they affirmed That the blood of Christ shed is not in his person in heaven but the vertue of it To which T. M. saith Ans That herein also they have altered and falsified his sayings which in Answer to their Question where the blood of Christ is was to this effect That the material blood was shed and the vertue or preciousness thereof or of his bloodshedding is now with the Father in the person of Christ in Heaven forasmuch as by means and for the worth thereof he is raised from the dead and entred into heaven it self there to appear in the presence of God for us having by it obtained life from the dead even eternal life and redemption for us Mind also Reader that they say p. 15. that they blame us not nor did blame us for not asserting that the bloodshed is in the body of Christ Why then note they this as a dangerous principle had T. M. so said 5. T. M. say they affirmed That the blood of Christ shed is the foundation of their faith but where it is they answered not nor could they tell Ans The forementioned Answer to their Question was first often given and urged else what meant their reply to it to this effect That the vertue of a thing cannot be separated from the thing it self that it may be where the thing it self is not in a present reall sensible existence or being the contrary to which was then proved as is shewed in the Book they pretend to answer And further T.
abiding in the Spirit flow springs and fruits diffuseing themselves through the man with motions of love joy bowels of mercy heavenly desires c. Which as in them and yielded to so and therein is Christ in them Hos 14. 8. Math. 13. 33. John 7. 38 39. Gal. 5. 22 23. Who by and with all these riches of his grace indueth them with some usefull gifts more or less of the Spirit which pleaseth him in which they may be use full in and with the grace received and Christ in them and through them and they by and from him shew forth his vertues to his praise and the convincement and edification of others and reproof of opposers and so also is he in them 1 Cor. 12. 4 -12. Ephes 4. 7 -16 1 Pet. 2. 4 5. 9. and 4. 10. 2 Cor. 2. 14 15 16. And herewith also a discerning and savouring of the appearance of his grace and ointments in believers of the same fellowship in the Gospel so as though to others they be not savoury but offensive yet by them they are acknowledged tasted entertained received and approved in their hearts and so in Union of love by Christs own interpretation acceptation and approbation is he received entertained and enjoyed by them 2 Cor. 2. 15. 17. 1 John 4 6 7. Math. 10. 40 41. and 18. 5. And from and with all the former an experimental knowledge of the coming in and efficacy of the love grace and glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ and the treasures of life in him now slowing forth and the hope of the glory to be enjoyed at his visible coming again in which as they are in him so he is in them too 1 John 5. 20. 2 Cor. 4 6 7. Joh. 17. 3 6 7 Rom 7. 25. and 8. 1 2. Phil. 3. 20 21. 1 Thes 1. 3 4 5. 10. And so Christ the quickning Spirit is by faith dwelling in believers hearts and this is called the riches of the glory of the mystery among or in the Gentiles preached by the Apostle Col. 2. 27. Where the Apostle saith not as these perverters say of themselves P. 14. That Christ in them is the mystery but the riches of this mystery is Christ in men the hope of glory namely by faith in men as is before declared even in such as unfeignedly believe in him not the possession of glory which is not to be enjoyed till his glorious appearing when these mediums now in use will cease Col. 3. 3 4. 1 Cor. 13. 10. 12. but the hope of glory Thus far we have enlarged by occasion of this their eighth charge to shew how Christ dwells in the heart by faith for thy usefulness Reader and now we proceed to their following charges 9. I. H. To that of 1 Cor. 15. 45. The last Adam was made a quickning Spirit John Horn said he was distinct from the eternall Spirit Ans But John Horn added by way of explication what they fraudulently suppress that he is distinct he said not divided from the eternall Spirit in which he offered up himself to God the Holy Ghost or the third of the three mentioned 1 John 5 7. and I. H. gave this reason for what he said that the second Adam was made a quickning Spirit the Holy Ghost was not made so but was so eternally so as the last Adams being a quickning Spirit was not 10. T. M. To prove sin a naturall heritage in believers so long as they are here brought Rom 7. 17. Ans That indeed he brought amongst other proofs to prove sin even in the beleevers a natural heritage from Adam Is this a dangerous Principle to quote Scriptures for what we assert see the Answer to the first Principle noted against us besides which we may add that in that and the foregoing and following Verses some of which also were alledged is a clear distinction between the outward and inner man the new man in his Spirit that sinned not and the members or mortal body in which he says that even then sin dwelt that it was as a natural heritage from Adam appears in that he says I am carnal sold under sin not I have sold my self to sin as it is said of Ahab willingly sinning but I am sold passively as implying by another and who could that be but the first Adam by whose one offence many were made sinners That all those Principles were asserted by us as they say is false and so it is that they were contradicted by the truth as what we have said to them evinces They did wisely to say only That our darkness and confusion may easily be seen without assaying to prove it because easier said then proved Let us see what they do in answer to our Book The Reply to their Book WEE charged them and yet do to be guilty of great Errors as 1. In pleading for and maintaining a perfection of sinlessness in themselves in this life To this they say We are in the great Error our selves who deny the perfection of sinlessness in the Believers for the Apostle said He that believeth hath the witness in himself 1 John 5. 10. which witnes is perfect and sinless so not without the perfection of sinlessness Rep. See Reader they intimately grant our charge and plead for it but prevaricate or shuffle for we did not fault them for asserting a perfection of sinlesness in the witness of God nor for saying that something in the beleever is sinless but that they have the perfection of sinlesness in themselves or are in themselves sinless beside they clip the Text they quote leaving out on the Son of God the object of the right beleeving and so turn it into a lie for the Devil is said to beleeve too Jam. 2. 19. yet hath not the witness sure in himself nor doth the witness of God appear to be in them that is in the right beleevers on the Son of God they being not beleevers but denyers and underminers of him and the Fundamental matters of the testimony of God concerning him as the following Answer evinces They adde He that beleeveth hath the witness that he is righteous and having this witness in himself he is not without the perfection and purity of it in himself for the witness of God cannot be divided from the nature of it Rep. It is not true that every one that beleeveth hath obtained witness that he is righteous see Jam 2. 19. though he that beleeveth on the Son of God and so in him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness and in that sense he is righteous Rom. 4. 5 6 7 22 24. and yet obtaining witness that one is righteous is a farther thing Hebr. 11. 4. and as the witness of God cannot be divided from the nature of it so neither can the Law in the members the fleshly and carnal disposition be divided from the nature of it and as the one is in the beleevers heart so the other is
idols will I cleanse you And as God promised to do so doth and will he do the blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin and yet it follows If we say we have no sin we deceive our selves and he is the propitiation for our sins 1 John 1. 7 8. and 2. 2. As was before noted he that forgives and cleanseth us by way of pardon from all sins bids us also pray as duly as for our daily bread forgive us our trespasses c. 3. As for exhortations to be perfect they prove not the being of the thing exhorted to They supposed above the little children to whom the Apostle wrote that they might not sin might have sin in them not withstanding Nor is all perfectiom perfection of sinlesness in mens selves Asa was perfect hearted all his daies and yet had sin and sinned 2 Chron. 15. 17. and 16. 9. And yet every one that is perfect shall be as his Lord he saies not he is so yea in saying he shall be he implies he is not yet so but when he shall appear we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is This we granted but they skipt it over 4. The Apostle said they were circumcised with the circumcisiou made without hands in the putting off the body of sins of the flesh but it was in Christ he saies for so much the words in whom signifies And the same Apostle in the same Epist Col. 1. 10. 11 to the same people therefore he saith but now you also Mark now also put off all these anger wrath malice blasphemy filthy communication c. Col 3. 8 9. it seems then they had those things yet to put off still for can any put off what is not So to the Ephesians too when he had said they had learned to put off the old man and put on the new he addes wherefore putting away lying speak every man truth to his brother a lesson these men have not yet learned To the Corimbians also he saith purge out the old leaven that ye may be a new lump even as ye are unleavened so that in some sense in Christ they were unleavened and yet in other sense needed to purge out the old leaven which implies it was yet in them for how can a man purge that out of him that is not in him but they through ignorance confound these things and run themselves and Auditors into delusion Again p. 5. l. 36. They distinguish the true Prophets Christ and his Apostles from themselves that are accused by us and so again imply that they be neither the true Christ nor his true Prophets or Apostles Reader mind it they give out themselves for Prophets and Apostles and some of them say they are Christ but they are false ones and why then plead they for their false prophecyings and witnessings But they indeed shew their confusion and rayling against us as after will appear to their own delection and shame as for their innocence no liers are innocent but they be over and over proved liers that perfect heartedness and compleateness in Christ may consist with sin being in men in this life we have shewed And they cannot disprove unloss they will blot out Col. 2. 10. with Chap. 3. 8. 2 Chron. 15. 17. so 1 Cor. 5. 8. 9. Which we noted above either let them say those Scripture sayings are false or else own their own words to be false in saying that we fight against our own words and that they that are compleate in Christ are perfectly freed from sin namely as to all inherency of it in themselves or they say nothing to purpose that sinners are out of the compleatness of Christ which though in some sense true viz. Of sinners out of Christ yet is not universally true except Paul when he said of sinners I am the chief was out of Christs compleatness that the heart that hath sin dwelling in it is not perfect contrary to 2 Chron. 15. 17. with 16 17. Where Isaiahs heart is said to have been perfect all his daies and yet he is charged with relying on the King of Asyria and not relying on the Lord his God and those were heart-sins surely and they dwell there too for some time as the verses before manifest p. 6. They accuse us of confusion that we say believers are come to a further state and covenant then Adam was in before his fall who then had no sin in him and yet accuse the believers they say with having the body of sin or not being perfect while here Rep. Here they shew their own confusion for the believers being in a better state or convenant in Christ hinders not their having sin yet in themselves to purge out as is evident in Col. 2. 10 11. with 3. 5. 8 9. No more then it hinders them from having infirmides and death which Adam unfallen had not besides they have added a lie or two as that we accuse the believers with having a body of sin then Paul accused them when he said the believers old man is crucified with Christ that the body of sin might be destroyed the words might be plainly imply it a thing not then done but to be done as in all like expressions is evident and that we accuse them with not being perfect when in divers respects we grant them to be perfect as perfect in Christ Jesus and many of them perfect with Christ in their Spirits without guile there and perfect comparatively to some others c. In the same page they wrong us in giving it as our saying that Adam might possibly sin and die but not so the believers whereas we added what they suppress to not so the believer not under a covenant of works here nor hereafter the resurrection capable of sinning and dying as Adam before his fall was again they say we would accuse the Quakers of being sinners because of their dying which is false let any man read our book p 3. What we said is thus that the Quakers are not in Adams state before the fall because Adam had no death then upon him as the Quakers have for they must die but they say here our darkness appears for believers dying the natural death doth not prove them sinners while here for through death they gain more of the peace and glory of God which they partake of in their life time which is both confused and inconcludent for what if the believer gain by his death may it not therefore argue he had sin in him while he lived is not the being freed from the body of death and inherency and combating with sin again think they Though we did not bring it for an argument to prove what they charge us with as we before discovered and for their confusion their words sound as if they believed that the greater gain by their death they have it all in this live for they say not more of the peace and glory of God then they partake of in
this life but which they partake of in this life but where can they shew us any that ever died that either had not sin in him or sin imputed to him They imply p. 6. l. 25 26. By their taxing us with the contrary that Adam might have died the naturall death if he had not sinned and to prove it adde for Christ died who had no sin To which we reply 1. Did Christ die a naturall death was it naturall to Christ to die 2. Had Christ no sin of ours upon him which occasioned his death or should he have died though he had not them laid upon him He bare our sins in his own body on the tree therefore he had sins though none of his own he did no sin neither was guile found in his mouth see there guile and sin distinguished as if all sin is not guile or guile not all sin yet he bare our sins 1 Pet. 2. 22 24. 3. Is this a good inference Christ died that did not sin yet had our sins charged or laid upon him therfore Adam should have died a natural death though he had not sinned let the reader judge they say Christ died to destroy the death that came by sin Rep. 1. If death came by sin as the Apostle testifies in Rom. 5. 12. What death was that if not the naturall death Or where doth the Apostle distinguish and say there is a death of men that came in by sin and the death of men that came not in by sin and that 's the natural death Or where find we mention of Adams dying before and without respect to his sinning in any kind of death 2. Did not Christ by death destroy the naturall death both in taking away its force for taking us out of favour and fellowship with God and in becoming the Resurrection and life from death by whom men shall be raised up out of it at the last day Did he not destroy that kind of death which he died and if that was the naturall death as they say the bodily death we may say then that he also destroyed and so destroying that death that came in by sin it follows that the naturall or bodily death came in by sin too and so that Adam should not have died had he not sinned Do they think that we will worship them and call them the masters of our faith to receive their dictates without proof Let them shew that Adam might have died the natural death or the believers either if they had not sinned They say They who die in the Lord are blessed and to die is gain to them Rep. True but it s by vertue of the Lord in whom they die that turns their curses into blessings death into life Nor is it natural to die in the Lord though to die be It s true too that the righteous mens dying was not charged upon them as a reward for their sin and yet true too that had they never been sinners or sinned in Adam they had never died for as much as by one mans sin death passed upon all as the Apostle witnesses as a reward of Adams sin and theirs in him it first was denounced and though through Christ the weight and destructiveness of it is removed yet the carcass of it remains upon men generally though through Christ turned to the believers gain W. and F. They say God said to Adam in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt die but Adam lost not his naturall life in the day he eat of the tree of knowledge for after that he lived in the body Rep. Herein again they shew their confusion for what though Adam lived in the body after he eat of the tree of knowledge follows it he had not lost his life that day he eat A man my loose or forfeit that which may not presently be taken from him men loose their lives in a Law sense when they do such things as subject them to the Law so as they are thereby condemned to die though death be not presently executed upon them That day he died then in the sentence of the Law though not as to its execution upon him which yet had been then executed too its probable had not Christ the Mediator interposed between him and death to die for him Besides that a thousand years being to the Lord but as one day and he dying in that space he might be said in that sense to have died on the day he sinned They say The covenant Adam was in before his fall was a covenant of life for he was in the image of God and a living soul having the breath of life in him and had dominion in it while he stood in his habitation c. Rep. That Adam was under a covenant of life before the fall is true nor opposes our sayings but their own that Adam might have died the naturall death though he had not sinned But they have weakly proved that it is so for sure the covenant made with him was with him alive and as a creature and not made with him before he was a living man and therefore his being in the image of God a living soul having the breath of life in him and dominion in it as they speak are not to the purpose The covenat might concern their continuance to him not his being made first in them they adde this state have the believers proved and witnessed that life and nature and image that was in man before the fall though they become further in the second Adam who is greater then the first Adam Rep. Still they dictate magisterially where have the believers proved that state of Adam and witness it let them shew it in all the Scriptures for as for their witnessings they are of no Authority with us it s the truth of their witnessings we would have them prove and not onely tell us they are true for we are not of the mind with some simple that believe every of their words to believe that their sayings are as good or better then the sayings of the Prophets and Apostle in the Scriptures have any believers ever witnessed that they were without sin as Adam under no more sentence of death then Adam while in his innocent condition let them shew us that that we may believe it have any believers proved that state of Adam to have life in themselves and not in Christ crucified as Adam had And how are they come further in the second Adam are they led to that and the second Adams state too Where prove they that Into the naturall life of Adam as earthly and fallen full of sin and death such as Adam fallen derived to them they are born and through it are led yea and out and beyond that in Christ in a measure here and fully hereafter but that Christ leads them first into the state of Adam innocent and then into the state of Christ they must prove and not onely dictate before it find credit with
that he should even so come again in like manner as they had seen him go up into Heaven for that was in a body with flesh and bones in it and was visible to the eye till a cloud received him out from their sight and that this you deny appears in what you have said before of the Church being his body onely and by what follows viz. That as he who is the Word became flesh so when the days of his flesh were finished he was translated into his own glory which he had with his Father from eternity and so the second Adam is a quickning Spirit for in those words you imply that his flesh or the substance of his body in which he bare our sins is ceased and so that his humanity or what he took of the Virgin and of the seed of David after the flesh is gone so as he is onely a Spirit without any human body but how then did the Apostle oppose Christ in his ascending into Heaven unto David Acts 2. 34 45. For by that David ascended as much as Christ for his Spirit went to God when his body went to the dust Eccles 12. 7. And it seems by your sayings Christs body is not ascended but by the Apostles saying Christ is opposed to David in ascending in what he David ascended not whose body he says is the sepulchre therefore it follows that the body of Christ is ascended and is taken up into glory and is called the glorious body of Christ to which the believers body is to be conformed and changed into its likeness not into the Churches likeness sure which as yet is much of it in a suffering state and not a glorious body yea the Apostle tells us that of the fruit of Davids loines according to the flesh Christ is raised up to sit upon his throne Acts 2. 30. Is he the man Jesus the Mediator of God and us the propitiation for our sins as a Spirit merely Or is he the man Christ as he is God in us or a Spirit in Union with his Church And is so as he the propitiation for our sins then he bare his own sins in his body and is the propitiation for himself seeing the Church is he or part of him his body that was offered up for us It 's true the second Adam was made a quickning Spirit yet abides a man and hath a glorious body dictinct from his Church to which our body is to be conformed even as Adam was a living soul yet had a natural body W. and F. To your question you aske us viz. Whether we believe that body the saints upon earth do discern and which the world cannot discern is a body of flesh and bones yea or nay We answer it 's the body that was broken for us and is to be fed upon by us as is plain in 1 Cor. 11. 24. 29. not discerning the Lords body it 's that that is remembred and communicated with in the supper of the Lord which ordinance you have denied in your queries to us and that body was the same that Christ shewed to have flesh and bones in it and in which he went up into Heaven as before think you the Church was given and broken for us and is the breaking of the Church that which we are to have communion with and remember as the matter of our seeding in that Ordinance Though the body mysticall of Christ his Church is also to be discerned by the believers and is not by the world but if the Church be the body discerned which in the supper we have the communion of and which was broken for us then the flesh of Christ which we eat is something of the Church the flesh and substance of the Church and so the Church is to eate itself what confused stuff is this that is insinuated by you to us But by the reason you give off your propounding that question viz. seeing we own the believers or Church to be the body of Christ and plead for another body of Christ distinct from them it 's plain without contradiction that you deny the personall body of Christ to be and abide in the Heavens and to deny the man Jesus to be the Object of the believers faith and why shamed you to speak out this so broadly at the dispute Was you then more bashfull and are since grown more audacious and impudent W. and F. They say It 's grosse confusion to say that believers are Members of Christs flesh and bones and then to say they are not flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone as if Christ had two bodies of flesh and bone one of which the saints are not Members when the Apostle says as much as they were flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone in saying no man ever hated his own flesh but nourisheth it and cherisheth it even as the Lord the Church for we are Members of his body of his flesh and of his bones Ephes 3 30. Rep. Surely the grosse confusion is clearly in themselves here as is easie to demonstrate 1. They bely us in saying of us that we said what we said not viz. That believers are Members of Christs flesh and bones we said the Apostles preached that the believers are Members of his body of his flesh and of his bones neither the Greek nor the Latine as G. W. At least as to the Latine may know will bear that construction Members of his flesh and bones but Members of his body of that is out of his flesh and of or out of his bones ex carne ejus ex ossibus ejus 2. Is his Church flesh and bones said they not above that a body of flesh and bones cannot be said to be in the Heavens but if believers be a body of flesh and bones as they are if they be flesh of his flesh and bone of his bones must they not needs be then a body of flesh and bones in Heaven seeing they grant his body to be in the heavens yea to be the fulness of God that filleth all in all both in Heaven and earth is flesh and bones the fulness of God filling all in all both in Heaven and earth 'T is true that the Church consists of Members that each of them have personall heads and bodies of flesh and bones as men but are they flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone Is our flesh of Christs flesh and our bone of Christs bone How then hath not Christ flesh and bone of his own distinct from the body his Church if our flesh be flesh of his flesh and our bone be bone of his bone Doth not that phrase speak plainly of flesh and bones of his distinct from the Church which they say too is flesh and bone is not the confusion then in these men that deny Christ to have a body of flesh and bones distinct from his Church and then to say his Church is flesh of his flesh and bone of
stand by themselves and say God I thank thee I am not as other men are I am not as this Publican c. The Hypocrites use not to be sencible of and own their sins but rather boast themselves to be holy as if they had no sin Search the Scriptures and see if the Scribes and Pharisees Hypocrites or the true Apostles and Prophets rather use to confesse their sins and take shame to themselves for them You may finde David Solomon Isaiah Jeremiah Daniel Paul James John c. but never the Scribes and Pharisees so doing let all see whether they or we be in the steps of the Hypocrites then do they walk directly in them lifting up themselves as if they had no sins to confesse when indeed they be most deceitfull and abominable Hypocrites in the inside of their Doctrine turning the Truth of God into a lie But 3. What would they have done had they lived with the true Apostles and Prophets from whom they distinguished themselves above Would they not have fallen fowlly upon them and reproached them as they do us Had they heard Davids saying innumerable evils have compassed me about mine iniquities have taken such hold upon me that I am not able to look up they are more then the hairs of my head therefore my heart faileth me Would they not have called him Hypocrite for faulting his enemies and persecutors as evil doers and yet he himselfe so burthened with iniquity Had they heard Isaiah say we grope for the wall like the blinde we grope as if we had no eyes we stumble at noon day as in the night c. Isa 59. 12 13 14. for our transgressions are multiplyed before thee our sins testifie against us for our transgressions are with us and as for our iniquities we know them in transgressing and lying against the Lord and departing away from our God speaking oppression and revolt c. Would they not have said Oh thou Hypocrite hast thou been crying out against us as blind and bruitish and such as have no understanding and dost thou grope like a blinde man and as if thou hadst no eyes people had need take heed of thee least thou lead them blind-fold into the ditch Do you lie and transgresse and speak words of ravolt from God Should we or any of us then take heed to you Consider your own conditions c. Do not those words speake as high as neglect of Christ and abuse of his Truth Revolt from him signifies more then simply neglect of him and how would these have reproached him had they heard him say we are all as an unclean thing and all our Righteousnesses are as filthy rage c. Isa 64. 6. Would they not have cryed out upon him unclean wretch and bid him leave preaching and told the people they had need to take heed of following such an unclean wretch Had they lived in Agurs dayes and heard or seen him publish his prophecy with Jehiel c. and how he begins with this confession Surely I am more bruitish then man and have not the understanding of a man I neither learned wisdom nor have the knowledge of the Holy Would not such proud Pharisees as these have cryed out upon him for a beast what should he be heard for And warned people not to take heed to his sayings seeing he confesses he hath not the knowledge of the holy Prov. 30. 2 3. The like I might observe of Ezra and Nehemiah Job confessing their sins and Daniel that they had done wickedly rebelled by departing from Gods precepts judgments Daniel says expresly that he confessed his sins as well as the sins of his people Dan. 9. 20. Yea and this too after they were holy men and Prophets and born of God as was made good lately against G. W. at our later dispute with him he not being able to maintaine the contrary What would they have said had they lived when Paul that wrote against the Antichristians that made a fair shew in the flesh and gloried in appearance comes out with an acknowledgement that he was a chief of sinners and lesse then the least of all Saints Eph. 3. 8. Would they not have concluded him to be an Hypocrite to give out himself to be an Apostle and Preacher of Christ and yet not so much as the least Saint Would they not have concluded him then one of the World and so led by a worldly deceitful spirit not to be believed and followed Reader judge indifferently between us if they in thus reproaching us for joyning our selves with the people and confessing our selves faulty in that we have too much neglected Christ and abused his Truth not so contended for Christ against these deceivers and false prophets as we should nor so used and walked in his Truth as we ought and are not like the Pharisees that pretend themselves perfect and to have no sins to own and confesse Judge whether of us tread more in the steps of the Prophets and Apostles who said if we confess our sins he is faithfull and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness Judge whether of us have the beame in our eye to hinder us from seeing we that pull it out by owning and confessing our evils with the evils of the people or they that hide their wickednesses and justifie themselves as no sinners though guilty of such horrid damnable deceits as we have herein in them discovered They bid give over our Teaching of others Reply Ay that 's the thing they would have that 's it grieves them that the sheep should not be left to the Wolves that they might devour them but is that wholesome Counsel and the way for us to do better we confess we have too much neglected Christ and they would have us neglect him more let him look to his own affairs c. We confess we have been guilty with the Nation in the abuses of truth and they would have us abuse it worse by suppressing it that God might take it from us and give us up to their delusions Nay nay that 's not the way to do well that 's counsel from the Devil Did not the holy men above mentioned condemn and reprove the false Prophets and enemies of the Truth of Christ in their several ages because they confest themselves guilty of such evils bruitishness iniquities no whit below our expressions See what Agur sayes notwithstanding his foresaid confession Prov. 30. 12 13. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes are not these Quakers such and yet are not washed from their filthiness There is a Generation Oh how losty are their eyes and their eye-lids are lifted up Are not the Generation of the Quakers such haughty and proud boasters Did not David Isaiah Jeremiah Paul John c. Preach against and reprove the false Prophets hypocrites and Antichrists of their times too though they confest sins in themselves Should they not have done thus
partaker for a time that he might die for us That through Death he might destroy him that had the power of Death c. 3. To their parenchesis or a humane body we further say Doth the Light in them tell them that carnal and a body of Flesh and Bones and a humane body is alwayes one and the same Let us see if it be not darknesse Humane is alwayes used for the Nature or kind of man as Gods Creature as distinguished from other kinds of Creatures And so a humane body is the body of a man one that is verily a man whether sinful and mortal or not so either the one or the other And so the Body of Adam in his Innocency was humane the body of a man he was verily man yet sinless and so not subject to or in a state of Death though capable of becoming Immortal or mortal but when by sinning he fell from God then he became sinfult and mortal And such are all that by natural propagation come from him as of and from him while in this body not changed by Death yet still humane the nature or kinde remains though degenerated and corrupt God made man upright and t is man still that hath sought out inventions and is become carnal sold under sin Ecles 7. 21. with Gen. 5. 1. 2. and Chap. 8. 21. But the second Adam our Lord Jesus Christ is not a carnal but Spiritual man even from the first of his being made man for though his Body prepared for and taken by him when the word was made flesh was humane of mankinde and so he was a very man Yet he came not by propagation from Adam but though made of a woman of the seed of Abraham and so of Adam of whom Abraham was yet it was in a supernatural way a work of new Creation by the operation of the holy Ghost in the womb of a Virgin that had not known man and was holy being anointed of God with the Holy Ghost and power even in and from his conception and Birth And so that holy thing even before born of her and when born and alwayes without sin yet not Immortal but for a time partakers of Flesh and Blood as the Natural Children of Adam and because therein he was made subject to our infirmities that came on us naturally or as a natural heritage from Adam by reason of sin yet without sin he was said to be made in the likeness of sinful Flesh and his body might be said in some sence to be made a natural body as being partakers with us of Flesh and Blood and so mortal though not in every sence or in a full sence as the naturall Children of Adam are Yet to esteem him sinful Flesh or his body a carnal Body even then when he was on Earth partakers of Flesh and Blood and suffered in the Flesh we account blasphemie much more to esteem his raised and Glorified body in Heaven a carnal body For in his Resurrection form the dead all that weakness and mortality of the Flesh that came on the Nature of man by the first Adams sin and fall which he for a time was subject to in being partakers with us of Flesh Blood it was put off from him that he should no more return to it And so his body is become in a full and Glorious sence Spiritual Gloriously filled with the Spirit of Life and Power yea Immortal a Glorious body he being therein glorified with the Fathers own self and all by vertue of that his once suffering for our sins in the Fâ—esh in which he shed his blood and therein powered out his Soul unto Death laying down his Natural Mortal and Adam-like Life in the Flesh that he might take it again in the Spirit and Glory of the Father by which he was quickened raised from the dead now no more to return to corruption Yet still this raised and Glorious body is humane the body of a man even the man Christ Jesus having Flesh and bones hands and feet which by way of distinction from others and eminency above them is called his flâ—sh and his bones And had these men believed either the great Mystery as now revealed that God was manifested in the flesh in the words being made flesh and dwelling amongst men or the Resurrection of the body of Christ that dyed they would neither have cavelled at the denying his body to be carnal as if it could not stand with the acknowledgement of this man continuing for ever nor have spoken so contemptuously of the Glorious body of Christ And so neither would they have added this following query Is not a fleshly body Carnal To which we further Answer 1. Fleshly and carnal do not alwayes signify the same thing in Scripture for we read of a heart of flesh and fleshly Tables of the Heart Ezek. 36. 26. 2 Cor. 3. 3. whereby fleshly cannot be meant carnal but tender and fit to receive his impression or writing as opposed to a stony hard or carnal heart And though sometimes such expressions as to be flesh or fleshly named after it may be used to signify the weakness and brittleness of the outward man or a helpless withering worthlesse and decaying state which may stand with carnality in Scripture sence though distinct from it because all flesh in its present state is as Grass and the goodlinesse thereof as the flower of the Field fading and withering but the word of the Lord that was made flesh who is the spiritual and heavenly man and he abides for ever Yea though also sometimes a fleshly Mind and fleshly Lusts are equivalent with carnal mindedness and lusts as Rom. 8. 5. to 8. Col. 2. 18. 1 Pet. 2. 11 Yet 2. To have flesh and to be fleshly or named after it is two things whether we take flesh as signifying the outward man or body of man that hath flesh and bones and that whether as natural from Adam or as raised from the dead for there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body and both have flesh though not of or in the same quality or if we take flesh as Signifying the natural Sinfulness or carnal mind as the word is used for both yet to have flesh in either sence and to be fleshly or named after the flesh are not the same nor alwayes meeting in the same person The Apostles did live and walk in the flesh or natural body yet did not war after the flesh nor was fleshly or carnal in their knowings speakings or actings 2 Cor. 10. 3 4. with chap. 1 12 13 and 5. 16. Gal 2 20. with Phil. 1 2â— 24. and yet also they had flesh in the last sence even natural sinfulnesse and carnality still dwelling in them in their flesh members or outward man as from Adam though they were not reckoned after it nor did walk in or after it but did mind and walk in and after the spirit and so were not carnal but Spiritual
And if to have flesh and to be fleshly be not the same nor doth the latter at all necessarily follow upon the former in mortal men How durst these men speak of them as necessarily one in him who is raised from the dead in the Glory of the Father and who saw no corruption as if his having flesh and bones should render him a fleshly man or body but that they are vainly puft up with their fleshly mind not holding the head c. Yea 3. Neither is his body a fleshly body nor any where by us or the Scripture so called for though sometime as we shewed it was subject to the weakness and infirmities of the flesh that are natural to us from fallen Adam and so in some sence might be said to be a natural body though he was therein made that which naturally he was not and that in a supernatural way as aforesaid and was therein as alwayes perfectly without sin yet taking part with us of flesh and blood that he might dye our death c. as before is hinted yet now being raised from the dead even that body of his flesh which God hath raised up from the dead is now in Heaven with the Father a spiritual heavenly and glorious body so as yet the bodies of any of his members on earth are not But their bodies also that now are vile and see corruption as his never did even the same that are now living on the earth or sleeping in the dust shall be raised by him in the first Resurrection at his appearing not carnal bodies or vile and corruptible as now they are but fashioned into the likeness of his glorious body when this corruptible shall put on incorruption and this mortal immortality Quest 9. Can any local place contain that Glory which Christ had with the Father before the world was wherein he is glorified Ans Nay but the heavenly places or places on high where he is received till the times of restitution may contain his Glorious Body though they cannot contain the glory wherewith he is glorified and which he possesseth therein for place cannot contain infinite power wisdom eternity glorious Majesty c. The heaven heaven of heavens cannot contain that glory of the Fathers own self which is the glory that Christ had with him before the world was and wherewith he is now glorified in the Body of his flesh how much less can earthen Vessels or Clay Tabernacles contain that Glory that is set above the Heavens we say the heavens cannot contain it so that it should not Shine forth and operate in heaven and in earth and in all places yet the heaven is his Throne the earth his footstool yea the heaven of heavens is that place of his habitation from whence he beholdeth all things and doth whatsoever he pleaseth in heaven and in earth and in all places 1 Kings 8. 27 Isa 66. 1. Eccles 5. 2. Psal 33. 13 14. And so the personal body of Christ in which he bore our sins on the Tree being now raised from the dead is received and taken up into heaven set down on the right hand of the Majesty and Power of God in the heavens and not now on the earth personally yet the heavens cannot contain his Glory from Shining forth to us and operating in and with us and in all things and places in the influences thereof because the fulness of the God-head dwells in him bodily and all power is given unto him in heaven and in earth yea because he is in heaven with the father therefore he is able to fill all things with the fruits of his mediation and influences of his power for if he were now on earthor had not been received up into heaven set down on the right hand of Majesty upon his finishing the Works the Father gave him to do on earth and offering up that spotless body of his flesh to God he could not have been such a Priest and such a mighty King of Righteousness Prince and Saviour for us and to us And therefore those that deny his being in heaven in that body of his flesh his now glorious body in which he is the head distinct from every body and spirit of his members and as their fore-runner entred before them as these Spirits in all their discourse and perverse disputings against it at least privily do and have done they do therein as much deny that Jesus is the Christ and so are the great lyars and Antichrists foretold to come in the last dayes that deny the Father and the Son And surely in frameing this query to that purpose not onely their wicked enmity against the man Christ Jesus as in the former appears but also in this their brutish folly to which God justly leaves them is so made manifest that all of any understanding in naturall things or things within the reach of mans reason may easily see it For in such things its evident not onely that the power excellency and efficacy of some man or men on earth may reach much further then his personal body or then the place in which that is yea the farther and the more fruitfully for his standing or abiding in some one place where he may be more profitable and fruitful to others then if he were personally with them according to which our Saviour instructs his Disciples in the necessity and usefulness to them ward of his leaving the World and going away from them to the Father to appear in his presence and stand in his Name for our help John 14. 2. 3. and 16. 7. 28 with Heb. 7. 8. 9. 4. 14. c. 1 John 2. 1 2. But farther also its evident to all that know anything and therein may be also some resemblance of this business that even the Visible Sun is placed in the firmament to run and keep its course there yet those heavens cannot contain its glory that it should not Shine to us and have its effects on the earth nor could it so generally Shine and have such Universal influences and effects if its body were not set or placed at such a distance from us Quest 10. Where or how came Christ into the house where his Disciples were met after his Resurrection the doors being shut John 20. 19. 26. Have not some of you said that then his body being spirituallized it glided in at the key hole of the door for so it hath been spoken concerning some of your way An. This hath two or three questions in it the two first are foolish and unlearned and to be avoided by us as where he came in or how it being not revealed otherwise or farther then thus That the same Jesus that dyed and rose did when his Disciples were in a house together come the doors being shut and stand in the midst of them even in that body of his flesh that saw no corruption having flesh and bones hands and feet the same body that was
crucified nailed to the Cross and pierced with a Spear as himself then did expresly demonstrate to Thomas see vers 27. This revealed we believe to be true because spoken by the Truth of God that cannot lie But where or how he came in further then revealed in his Testimony already given we desire not to be wise in knowing or carnal in seeking sensually to immagine for secret things belong to the Lord our God but things revealed unto us c. Deut. 29. 29. To the last we say None of us have said as is related nor matters it what hath been said concerning some of our way that 's not the onely falshood that hath been forged concerning us by some of their way They might have heard such imaginations and inquisitions reproved by us as too sensual in seeking to bring down the great things in the Revelation of the Mysterie of God manifested in the flesh to the sensual mind or comprehension and favouring of pride and vanity of mind in desiring to be wise above what is written and so we still look upon them and therefore own no such thing But believing the Scriptures and the great power of God and that the Body of the Lord Jesus risen from the dead is Glorified with the Fathers own self we know he could come in where how he pleased whether there was any such way for him or no and needed no passage to be opened or made or for him Yea further also we are assured that even the Children of the first Resurrection when they shall attain to that Resurrection of the dead and have their bodies that now are vile fashioned into the likeness of his Glorious Body they in those very bodies bâ—ing Spiritual Immortal Powerful Incorruptible shall be equal to the Angels who cannot be hindred from passage by any corruptible things as Doors Walls or the like but can make their own passage through any such obstacles more easily then mortal bodies through the air And why should it be thought a thing incredible that the Creator of all things should make mans nature partaker of such Glory It is so onely to the sensual and carnally minded who do therefore err not knowing or believing the Scripture and the great Power of God And that these are such appears by this manner of questioning Do they not secretly imply in this question that such a thing could not be done according to the proper and natural sence and import of the words unless some mortal man can tell where or how And do they not therein signifie that they count the plain sence and cleare import of the Evangelists words to be a lye And that either Christ had not a Body having flesh and bones after his Resurrection as himself said or if he had he could not come into the house and be in the midst of them the doors being shut and so by rendering the expressions of the Holy Ghost such as can have no truth in them in their litteral sence and plain import but are rather a cunningly devised fable they would insinuate a necessity of seeking the truth in some fancied moral or Allegorical interpretations of theirs Besides they intimate pride and high thoughts of themselves for sure they would have us think they are so wise above what is written that they can answer their own Querie what lesse can be thought in their thus propounding it to us But till they have answered the Questions put to Job chap. 38. we will not believe them for we know neither they nor any other mortal man can by searching find out the Almighty to perfection Job 11. 7 8. nor yet find out the Work of God from the beginning to the end Eccles 3. 11. no not the Works of God done under the Sun Ecles 8. 17. He is no true believer on God that will believe no more of his Works then he can tell how where and in what manner they were done and he is foolish and proud that conceives himself able to demonstrate to reason every such thing in every Work of God Quest 11. Whether the same Christ who in the dayes of his flesh suffered persecution whose body was subject to hunger and affliction be not made a quickening spirit 1 Cor. 15. 49. and yet his flesh and blood is so nigh to every true believer that his flesh is his meat indeed and his blood is his drink indeed c Answ This Question also may be divided into two parts 1. Whether the same Christ who in the dayes of his flesh suffered c. be not made a quickening spirit 2. The following part is in the form of a proposal yet is signified to be part of their question by the interrogatory point it is thus And yet his flesh and blood is so nigh to every true believer that his flesh is his meat indeed c To the first part VVhether the same Christ c. be not made a quickening Spirit We answer Yea he is or rather to use the expression of the Scripture he was so made for he is not now making or to be made so And further we say We truly believe and propofess without hidden things of dishonesty That it is the same Christ who in the dayes of his flesh suffered c. Now that was the word made flesh and so Christ of the fruit of Davids Loyns after the flesh who had both Spirit and Body and if he were without either now he could not be the Christ much lesse the same Christ yea the Scripture quoted by them 1 Cor. 15. 45. saith That as it was the first man Adam that was made a living Soul so it is the second Adam that was made a quickening Spirit And therefore as the first Adams being made a living Soul hindred not his having a natural body yea it was the man that was made so so neither doth the second Adams being made a quickening Spirit hinder his having a Spiritual and Glorious Body that yet hath flesh and bones yea it s the man Christ Jesus the second Adam Christ of the fruit of Davids loyns after the flesh that was made both Lord and Christ and so a quickening Spirit It is the same Jesus that suffered so in the same body in which he once not onely suffered but suffered for our sins and bore them on the Tree the just for the unjust c. which also is more then they include in their acknowledgement of his Sufferings it is this Jesus who was both dead and buried whom God hath raised up and made both Lord and Christ They would seem to grant that the same Christ who in the dayes of his flesh suffered c. is made a quickening spirit yet privily deny it while they confesse not Jesus to be the same and very Christ that was so made which they do not while they acknowledge him not to be so made in the same body of his flesh in which he once so suffered For the Name Jesus alwayes
signifies Christ as come in the flesh and so takes in that body of his flesh upon the taking whereof that Name was given him as is before noted yea he whom God hath raised from the dead and made both Lord and Christ and so a quickening spirit is said to be Christ of the Seed of David after the flesh Rom. 1. 3 4 with Acts 2. 30. 36. the same that dyed and was buried 1 Cor. 15 3. 4 45. The last Adam as also before is hinted in not confessing which they privily deny what they pretend to grant and their seeming grant is like John VVhiteheads concerning the Resurrection of Christ who at our meeting with him at Gedney pretended to believe that the same Christ that took flesh in a body prepared for him of the Seed of Abraham and David and in that body served and suffered for at a time that the same Christ was raised and glorified with the Fathers own self And yet then would by no means acknowledge though oft intreated and urged to speak plainly to the Question that he was raised and did live again and continue for ever in the same body in which he so served and suffered or that the same body that then once in the last ages suffered and was hung on the Tree was raised again from the dead and is now alive for evermore yea at last he deneyed that the same dead bodies of men that dye in Adam shall be raised and made alive again from the dead that even the same that sleep in the dust of the earth shall come forth of their Graves by Christ and so consequently that Christ is raised for if the dead rise not then is not Christ raised for Jesus Christ was dead and buried as before we have shewed So then their immagination or meaning in this equivocal grant appears to be this That the same Christ that had a body distinct from all other in which in the dayes of his flesh he suffered is now raised ascended and gone out of that body of his flesh into some imaginary spiritual being which in that body of his flesh he could not be made yet that in that his spiritual being he is in the bodies or bodies and souls of divers persons working doing or suffering the same things in them which were typically or as a Pattern suffered and done in that body of his flesh and so they neither confess him already come in the flesh or as having finished that his coming in the flesh or first appearing to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself and so the works the Father gave him to do on the earth in that his once suffering for sin nor do they confesse yea they deny Jesus to be the very Christ who is made a quickening spirit and therefore we have laid down our answer plainly and distinctly that it s not onely the same that had a body and therein once suffered but also that it s he in the same body of his flesh in which he once suffered for sins even the same Jesus whom they crucified slew and hung on a Tree that God hath made the Lord and Christ and so a quickening spirit and have explained and confirmed our answer in the expressions of the Scripture quoted by them that its the last Adam c. of which they take no notice for that fully shews the fulnesse and ungodlinesse of their immagination which therefore we again desire the Reader to mind viz. that that Scripture 1 Cor. 15. 45. speaks of two Adams the first Adam the last Adam so then they were both men and had each the personal body of a man when those things there spoken of were verified in them yea so expresly called vers 47. the first man the second man It was the first man Adam that was made a living Soul and so it is the last Adam the second man that was made a quickening spirit The Lord formed the body of the first Adam of the dust of the earth and then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life Gen. 2. 7. and man became a living Soul the breath of Life did not annihilate the body formed of the dust but enlive and quicken it by possessing it and defusing it self in and through all the parts and members of it so that that breath of Life and the body of the man united the man became a Living Soul it is not said it or the breath of life became so but the man upon Gods breathing in that breath of life he even the first man Adam became a living Soul And had he abode in that uprightnesse and innocency in which he was made he might have lived for ever but as there was then none dead for him to quicken so neither was he fitted for such a work so that when he this first man Adam not keeping his first estate but seeking out inventions sinned and fell from God under the Sentence of and into a state of death and Separation from God and so death passed upon all men and they are all partakers of flesh and blood forasmuch as all have sinned in that offence of one they must all have been shut out and perished for ever in that losse and misery if God had not found out and prepared a second man Adam and made him a quickening Spirit for as by man came death so by man also the abolishing of and resurrection from the dead such was mans condition by reason of sin entered and overspreading the nature and death already passed on him in the Sentence of God that without another man a second Adam in whom Gods Truth might be fulfilled and his Justice satisfied in the punishment of sin death of the sinner and through whose Sufferings by his overcoming death the Righteousnesse of God might appear and shine forth therein we could not have been quickened or made alive Therefore for the recovery of fallen man that he might not be utterly expelled or shut out in the first death and banishment but such Redemption wrought and obtained for him that through the Redeemer he might be saved and that they might be all in due time made alive or raised from the first death to appear before the judgement Seat of their Redeemer therefore God found out and prepared a second Adam and made him a quickening spirit Now this second Adam was even his onely begotten Son the Word that was in the beginning with God and so before the first Adam and he by whom and for whom the first Adam and all things were made that were made the proper Lord and Heir of all things for he onely was able and meet to undertake such a work and to have help laid upon him for us but he was made flesh of a woman and so made man the second Adam in the fulnesse of time once in the end of the World and that by a wonderful work of new Creation by the Grace Gift and Appointment of the Father and by the Operation
of the Holy Ghost as is foreshewed and so was the Lord from Heaven Heavenly even when he was made flesh in that body so prepared for him yet very Man made of the Seed of David after the flesh and therein partaker with us of flesh and blood and so like to natural fallen sinful men from birth to death in all things except sin This second man the last Adam because he so humbled himself in that body prepared for him to that purpose God hath raised from the dead and exalted with his Right hand and Glorified him with his own self in that body in which he bore our sins with the Glory he had with him as his onely begotten Son before the World was and therein actually made him in a full and Glorious sence a quickning Spirit to quicken and raise others as is fore-shew'n So that his being made a quickning Spirit no more Annihilates his risen and Glorified body having flesh and bones from being truly a living Spiritual and personal body then the Breath of Life did Annihilate the first Adams body yea without that body he is not the man Jesus Christ us he is affirmed to be that was so made whereas if he were onely a Spirit without the body of a man the assertion must have been contrariwise thus He that was the last Adam is now the quickening Spirit and not Adam But the Text serves not these mens turn for it saith The first man Adam was made a living Soul the last Adam who is also called the second man ver 47. was made a quickening Spirit Nor was or is there any other man made a quickening Spirit but He in that his own personal body onely the second and last Adam or publick man who being made perfect through sufferings offered up himself once for all through the offering up of which body of Christ we are sanctified Heb. 10. 5. 10. For it pleased the Father that in all things he might have the preheminence that in him all fulnesse should dwell even the fulnesse of the God-head bodily Col. â— 1â— 19. and 2. 9. T is of his fulnesse that his members receive and that of this measure which they here receive from him they have it in earthen vessels and though by what they receive from him and are made in him their spirit is made alive for Righteousnesse sake yet the body is still dead because of sin and so vile while in this Mortal state that is while not changed in the natural bodily Death that in the Resurrection it may be fashioned into the likenesse of his Glorious body John 1. 14. 16. 18. 2 Cor. 4. 7. Rom. 8. 10. 2 Col. 3. 3 4. Phil. 3. 2. The second part further shews their Ignorance and being void of judgement in the things about which they query as also their sensualnesse not having the Spirit 1. Their Ignorance and being void of Judgement appeares in their saying and yet c. Or notwithstanding that he is made a quickening Spirit yet his flesh and blood is so nigh to every true believer that his flesh is his meat indeed c. In this saying and yet they imply that his being made a quickening Spirit renders it more difficult to understand that his flesh should be meat indeed and his blood drink indeed whereas our Saviour when he had affirmed his flesh to be meat indeed and his blood to be drink indeed and some thought it a hard or difficult saying John 6. 55. 60 c That he might demonstrate and make it more easie to their understandings he saith what and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where he was before It is the Spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words that I speak unto you they are Spirit and they are Life in all which he signifies as is more fully opened by the Apostles after his having finished the works the Father gave him to do on the Earth that even the flesh of Christ as in its mortal state and so all his abasement and sufferings for us in the flesh could not have profited us and so not have been bread of life for us if he in the same body of his flesh the Son of Man had not risen from the dead ascended and offered up himself to his Father in and by the Power of the Eternal Spirit according to that 1 Cor. 15. If Christ had not risen from the dead even Jesus Christ of the seed of David after the flesh that was dead and buried we had been yet in our sins and the Preaching of him and Faith in him had been vain But he being in due time by means of his once suffering in the flesh for sins quickened raised from the dead and Glorified by the Power of the Eternall Spirit and so made a quickening Spirit He therefore in that body of his flesh which saw no corruption and so his once suffering in the flesh for sin by means of which he was so Glorified is spiritual meat indeed the Bread of Life and was vertually so before but is now fully made so for us and also manifested so to us by that Spirit that raised him from the dead breathing in and present with the Preaching of his Crosse in which Preaching the preciousnesse of his Crosse is commended in this that he that suffered is raised and Glorified in the same body and now appearing in the presence of God for us by vertue of which it is made in the Preaching of it Bread of Life indeed and so his words declaring him that once suffered in the flesh to be so raised and glorified as aforesaid are Spirit and life as also Rom. 10. 9. These men therefore are of no Judgement concerning the Faith forasmuch as that which our Saviour gives as the Reason why his flesh is meat indeed and his Blood drink indeed namely that God would give him Glory as the fruit of it they imply at least as a thing rendering it more hard to be understood yea secretly they imply it as a reason against the understanding Christs flesh and Christs blood that is meat indeed and drink indeed according to the plain import of his words And so in this implication they signifie not onely as we have noted of them upon the first part of this question that in his being made a quickning Spirit they fancy a nullifying of the real being of that Body of his flesh in which they grant he once suffered but also that by his flesh and his blood which is meat and drink indeed they mean not that flesh once given for the life of the World nor that blood once shed for the Remission of sins or his once suffering in the flesh to the sheding of his blood as also more plainly appears in their next question 2. Their sensuality not having the Spirit appeares at least if we consider their sence of its being nigh in their saying that the flesh and blood of Christ is so nigh to
is that blood if not in Christs flesh as you affirmed seeing that men must drink the blood of Christ as well as eat his Flesh or else they have no life in them Answ They have hitherto intimated their corrupt minde against the personall and now Glorious body of Christ and against the heavens in which it is as onely designing to cast him down from his Excellency now they proceed to imply and privily cast out their venom against the blood of Christ as if that blood that was shed is personal sufferings to the sheding of his blood and death of the Cross were not the drink indeed and purger of the conscience for so in their supposition they imply that as a question whether that blood of Christ that was shed be the drink indeed c. And then frame their following question of purpose to deny or make it void from being so for if it be so say they then where is it c In which as in the former they imply that men cannot eat his flesh and drink his blood except it be in a sencible being present with them nigh to or in them and so consequently deny that blood of his Cross that was shed for the Remission of sins to be the drink indeed and the purger of the conscience because it is not now shedding and so as much deny his flesh that was broken and the preparing and giving it to be bruised wounded and broken for our transgressions to be meat indeed because those works and sufferings therein are finished and past and not doing or to be done over again in that person or any other and so cannot be in a present or sencible being nigh to in or with any man 2. They still to cast reproach upon it further imply that if that blood that was shed be the drink indeed and so consequently if that body of his flesh be meat indeed then the eating or drinking must be in a natural or sensual manner like as natural meat and drink is eaten and drunk For this they fully signifie the blood that was shed cannot be drunk except in its material being it be in Christs flesh or somewhere else nigh to men in a present material existence For if that blood that was shed say they be the drink indeed then where is it if not in Christs flesh as they say we affirmed but they say falsly for we oft declared that as the Blood of Christ is the bottom ground or foundation of our Faith or that by means of which he is so and so as it is the drink indeed c. Even so it is in Heaven with the Father even in Christs personal Glorious Body But that is not in a material and mortal existence or being of it in his flesh and with it as here he was partakers of Flesh and Blood but in the infinite vertue and preciousness of its being shed and so his sufferings once suffered in the flesh are for ever accepted and remembered with the Father and his Body Glorified and immeasurably fil'd with the Eternal Spirit yea he therein made a quickening Spirit for and to us and all by means of his death the vertue and preciousnesse of which remains for ever and so the Fruit of it and grace in and through it which also as we hinted before may be called his Blood as being the Fruit of it and things procured and purchased by it But then also in this their reproach 3. That which they add as a Reason why Christs Blood that was shed must be in his flesh if it be the drink indeed c. Namely that men must drink it shewes their folly for the necessity of drinking his Blood can be no Argument that his Blood is in his flesh as before it was shed for as so it was in a materiall being in his flesh and mixed with it it cannot be drunk in a sensuall or naturall way of drinking as they would signifie it must if that be the drink indeed it is rather to be drunk as shed and powered out for us We read of eating flesh with the Blood in it a thing forbidden in the Law but of drinking Blood in the flesh we read not but in their nonsencical language Yea 4. In the whole of this question they imply an immagination that there is some other Blood of Christ besides that which was shed or his Blood shedding and death once suffered in the flesh and that that other Blood is the drink indeed and the purger of the conscience and so consequently that there is some other flesh or Body of his flesh besides that which was broken for us which and not the former is the meat indeed And so they in their immagination make void his once suffering in the flesh in that one body so prepared for him as before as of no abiding vertue or efficacy with the Father for the taking away our sins and so for the Spiritual feeding of the believer now to this they render the Crosse of Christ of no effect that they may lift up something else in the name and place of it For further answer therefore to this Question and for the help of others we here add to what former demonstrations we have given of the flesh of Christ that is meat indeed and of his Blood that is drink indeed 1. That there is no other flesh of Christ that is meat indeed but that one Body of his Flesh that was prepared given and broken for us even his Flesh that he gave for the Life of the World nor any other Blood of Christ that is drink indeed but that Blood or death of the Cross that shedding of his Blood and powering out his Soul unto death which he once suffered in that his own Body for our sins without which we could have had no remission of them that he obtaining by it plenteous Redemption even the forgivenesse of sins might therein also seal and confirm the new Testament of precious promises and become himself in the man the Mediator of it and so an high Priest for ever after the order of Melchizedeck It is onely his being made flesh in that one Body prepared for him and his works and sufferings finished in that his own body in which he appeared once in the end of the World to put away sin by the Sacrifice of himself which the Father hath found out and accepted as a ransom or price of Redemption for sinful and fallen mankind and by means of which he hath given him glory in that his own Body in which he so Suffered that our Faith and Hope might be in God and therefore also it is onely that Cross of Christ because of the infinite grace therein testified which is commended and shed abroad by the Holy Ghost in his evidencing it as already past as to the actual enduring and suffering it in that in due time Christ dyed for the ungodly c. Rom. 5. 5. 10. and because of the Infinite vertue and