be_o sure_a you_o be_v hard_o put_v to_o it_o to_o return_v any_o satisfactory_a answer_n to_o it_o for_o you_o distinguish_v of_o the_o pope_n joynt-consent_n and_o of_o his_o actual_a confirmation_n in_o case_n say_v you_o the_o pope_n either_o in_o person_n or_o by_o his_o legate_n concur_v with_o the_o council_n than_o the_o definition_n be_v unquestionable_o infallible_a but_o in_o case_n he_o do_v not_o than_o the_o actual_a confirmation_n be_v necessary_a but_o in_o case_n the_o council_n err_v the_o pope_n ought_v not_o and_o it_o be_v impossible_a he_o shall_v confirm_v it_o but_o if_o he_o do_v not_o err_v you_o grant_v it_o be_v true_a before_o the_o pope_n confirm_v it_o but_o his_o confirmation_n make_v we_o infallible_o certain_a that_o it_o be_v true_a this_o be_v the_o full_a force_n of_o your_o answer_n which_o by_o no_o mean_n take_v off_o the_o difficulty_n as_o will_v appear_v 1._o that_o by_o reason_n of_o the_o pope_n rare_a appearance_n in_o general_a council_n never_o in_o any_o that_o be_v unquestioned_a by_o the_o greek_a and_o latin_a church_n that_o of_o his_o joynt-consent_n can_v serve_v you_o neither_o do_v the_o presence_n of_o his_o legate_n suffice_v for_o it_o be_v determine_v by_o bellarmin_n and_o prove_v by_o many_o reason_n that_o though_o the_o pope_n legate_n consent_v 11._o yet_o if_o they_o have_v not_o the_o express_a sentence_n of_o the_o pope_n the_o council_n may_v err_v notwithstanding_o so_o that_o still_o the_o pope_n actual_a confirmation_n be_v suppose_v necessary_a and_o that_o after_o the_o definition_n of_o the_o council_n be_v pass_v and_o this_o be_v the_o case_n which_o his_o lordship_n speak_v to_o and_o for_o your_o answer_n to_o that_o i_o say_v 2._o that_o in_o plain_a term_n you_o assert_v the_o pope_n personal_a infallibility_n which_o you_o disown_v the_o defence_n of_o before_o for_o you_o say_v in_o case_n the_o council_n err_v not_o only_o the_o pope_n ought_v not_o to_o confirm_v it_o but_o that_o it_o be_v impossible_a he_o shall_v which_o what_o be_v it_o other_o than_o to_o assert_v that_o the_o pope_n shall_v never_o err_v though_o the_o council_n may_v neither_o be_v it_o sufficient_a to_o say_v that_o he_o shall_v never_o err_v in_o confirm_v the_o decree_n of_o a_o council_n for_o in_o this_o case_n the_o council_n be_v suppose_v actual_o to_o err_v already_o so_o that_o nothing_o of_o infallibility_n can_v be_v at_o all_o suppose_a in_o the_o council_n and_o if_o the_o pope_n be_v not_o consider_v in_o his_o personal_a capacity_n he_o may_v err_v as_o well_o as_o the_o council_n from_o whence_o it_o follow_v since_o you_o suppose_v that_o a_o council_n may_v err_v but_o not_o the_o pope_n that_o you_o real_o judge_v the_o council_n not_o to_o be_v infallible_a but_o the_o pope_n only_o 3._o when_o you_o say_v that_o if_o the_o council_n err_v not_o the_o pope_n confirmation_n do_v not_o make_v the_o definition_n true_a but_o make_v we_o infallible_o certain_a that_o it_o be_v true_a i_o inquire_v further_o whereon_o this_o infallible_a certainty_n depend_v on_o a_o promise_n make_v to_o the_o council_n or_o to_o the_o pope_n not_o to_o the_o council_n for_o that_o you_o grant_v may_v err_v but_o it_o be_v impossible_a the_o pope_n shall_v confirm_v it_o therefore_o still_o it_o be_v some_o promise_n of_o the_o pope_n infallibility_n which_o make_v man_n infallible_o certain_a of_o the_o truth_n of_o what_o the_o council_n decree_v 4._o to_o what_o purpose_n then_o be_v all_o those_o promise_n and_o proof_n of_o scripture_n which_o you_o produce_v concern_v the_o council_n infallibility_n if_o notwithstanding_o they_o a_o general_n council_n may_v err_v only_o the_o pope_n shall_v never_o confirm_v it_o and_o although_o it_o do_v not_o err_v yet_o we_o can_v be_v infallible_o certain_a of_o it_o but_o by_o the_o pope_n confirmation_n and_o let_v any_o reasonable_a man_n judge_n whether_o a_o promise_n of_o the_o pope_n infallibility_n though_o there_o be_v none_o at_o all_o concern_v council_n be_v not_o sufficient_a for_o all_o this_o so_o that_o upon_o these_o principle_n you_o take_v away_o the_o least_o degree_n of_o necessity_n of_o any_o infallibility_n in_o council_n and_o resolve_v all_o into_o the_o pope_n infallibility_n for_o to_o what_o purpose_n be_v they_o infallible_a if_o we_o can_v be_v certain_a that_o any_o thing_n which_o they_o decree_v be_v true_a but_o by_o the_o pope_n confirmation_n but_o that_o the_o pope_n confirmation_n can_v make_v the_o decree_n of_o those_o you_o account_v general_a council_n infallible_a 7._o nor_o we_o infallible_o certain_a of_o the_o truth_n of_o they_o his_o lordship_n prove_v by_o another_o evidence_n in_o matter_n of_o fact_n viz._n that_o the_o pope_n have_v err_v by_o teach_v in_o and_o by_o the_o council_n of_o lateran_n confirm_v by_o innocent_a 3._o that_o christ_n be_v present_a in_o the_o sacrament_n by_o way_n of_o transubstantiation_n 257._o which_o his_o lordship_n say_v be_v never_o hear_v of_o in_o the_o primitive_a church_n nor_o till_o the_o council_n of_o lateran_n nor_o can_v it_o be_v prove_v out_o of_o scripture_n and_o take_v proper_o can_v stand_v with_o the_o ground_n of_o christian_a religion_n 287._o this_o you_o call_v a_o strange_a kind_n of_o proceed_v to_o assert_v a_o point_n of_o so_o great_a importance_n without_o solve_v or_o so_o much_o as_o take_v notice_n of_o the_o pregnant_a proof_n your_o author_n bring_v both_o out_o of_o scripture_n and_o father_n to_o the_o contrary_a of_o what_o he_o main_o affirm_v how_o pregnant_a those_o proof_n be_v we_o must_v examine_v afterward_o but_o his_o lordship_n may_v just_o leave_v it_o to_o those_o who_o assert_v so_o strange_a a_o doctrine_n to_o produce_v their_o evidence_n for_o it_o especial_o since_o it_o be_v confess_v by_o so_o many_o among_o yourselves_o that_o it_o can_v not_o be_v sufficient_o prove_v either_o from_o scripture_n or_o father_n to_o bind_v man_n to_o the_o belief_n of_o it_o 3._o till_o the_o church_n have_v define_v it_o in_o the_o council_n of_o lateran_n since_o the_o more_o moderate_a and_o learned_a man_n among_o yourselves_o bishop_n tonstall_n for_o one_o have_v look_v on_o that_o definition_n as_o a_o rash_a and_o inconsiderate_a action_n since_o the_o english_a jesuit_n confess_v that_o the_o father_n do_v not_o meddle_v with_o the_o doctrine_n of_o transubstantiation_n since_o suarez_n confess_v that_o the_o name_n use_v by_o the_o father_n be_v more_o accommodate_v to_o a_o accidental_a change_n since_o father_n barns_n acknowledge_v that_o transubstantiation_n be_v not_o the_o faith_n of_o the_o church_n c._n and_o that_o scripture_n and_o father_n may_v be_v sufficient_o expound_v of_o a_o supernatural_a presence_n of_o the_o body_n of_o christ_n without_o any_o change_n in_o the_o substance_n of_o the_o element_n for_o which_o he_o produce_v a_o large_a catalogue_n of_o father_n and_o other_o since_o therefore_o we_o have_v such_o confession_n of_o your_o own_o side_n what_o need_v his_o lordship_n in_o a_o controversy_n so_o thorough_o sift_v as_o this_o have_v be_v bring_v all_o the_o testimony_n of_o both_o side_n which_o have_v be_v so_o often_o and_o so_o punctual_o examine_v by_o other_o at_o least_o you_o say_v he_o shall_v have_v clear_v how_o transubstantiation_n may_v be_v take_v improper_o whereas_o of_o all_o the_o word_n which_o the_o church_n use_v there_o be_v none_o methinks_v less_o apt_a to_o a_o metaphorical_a and_o figurative_a sense_n than_o this_o of_o transubstantiation_n by_o which_o i_o see_v you_o be_v a_o man_n who_o will_v real_o seem_v to_o believe_v transubstantiation_n and_o be_v afraid_a of_o nothing_o but_o that_o it_o shall_v not_o be_v impossible_a enough_o for_o you_o to_o believe_v it_o for_o his_o lordship_n be_v only_o afraid_a that_o though_o the_o word_n itself_o be_v gross_a enough_o yet_o some_o of_o the_o more_o refine_a and_o subtle_a wit_n may_v transubstantiate_v the_o word_n itself_o and_o leave_v only_o the_o accident_n of_o it_o behind_o by_o take_v it_o in_o a_o spiritual_a sense_n as_o bellarmin_n confess_v those_o word_n of_o st._n bernard_n in_o sacramento_n exhiberi_fw-la nobis_fw-la veram_fw-la carnis_fw-la substantiam_fw-la sed_fw-la spiritualitèr_fw-la non_fw-la carnalitèr_fw-la have_v a_o true_a sense_n but_o add_v that_o the_o word_n spiritualitèr_fw-la must_v not_o be_v too_o often_o use_v and_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n will_v seem_v to_o provide_v a_o evasion_n by_o sacramentaliter_fw-la and_o his_o lordship_n not_o well_o know_v what_o they_o will_v have_v by_o such_o expression_n therefore_o he_o say_v proper_o take_v it_o can_v stand_v with_o the_o ground_n of_o christian_a religion_n and_o for_o all_o those_o expression_n bellarmin_n as_o well_o as_o the_o council_n take_v it_o in_o as_o gross_a a_o manner_n as_o you_o can_v desire_v and_o i_o think_v the_o physician_n who_o want_v impossibility_n
such_o distinction_n be_v think_v of_o then_o for_o they_o judge_v all_o prayer_n and_o invocation_n by_o the_o very_a nature_n of_o it_o to_o import_v divinity_n in_o that_o it_o be_v make_v to_o and_o therefore_o that_o no_o create_a being_n how_o excellent_a soever_o be_v capable_a of_o it_o from_o whence_o origen_n afterward_o suppose_v the_o sun_n moon_n and_o star_n to_o be_v intellectual_a being_n give_v this_o account_n why_o notwithstanding_o that_o they_o make_v no_o prayer_n to_o they_o for_o say_v he_o since_o they_o offer_v up_o prayer_n themselves_o to_o god_n through_o his_o only_a son_n 238._o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d we_o judge_v that_o we_o ought_v not_o to_o pray_v to_o they_o that_o pray_v since_o they_o will_v rather_o send_v we_o to_o god_n who_o they_o pray_v to_o then_o bring_v we_o down_o to_o themselves_o or_o to_o divide_v our_o pray_a virtue_n from_o god_n to_o themselves_o can_v we_o then_o suppose_v that_o the_o church_n at_o that_o time_n do_v allow_v of_o prayer_n to_o be_v make_v to_o saint_n in_o heaven_n suppose_v their_o pray_v there_o in_o behalf_n of_o the_o church_n on_o earth_n for_o we_o see_v origen_n go_v on_o this_o ground_n that_o all_o intellectual_a spirit_n which_o pray_v themselves_o be_v not_o to_o be_v pray_v too_o and_o that_o if_o they_o know_v of_o our_o pray_v to_o they_o they_o will_v send_v we_o to_o god_n and_o not_o accept_v of_o those_o supplication_n to_o themselves_o which_o be_v due_a only_o to_o god_n in_o the_o begin_n of_o the_o eight_o book_n celsus_n dispute_v against_o the_o christian_n because_o they_o worship_v only_o the_o supreme_a god_n 381._o without_o give_v any_o to_o the_o inferior_a daemon_n and_o that_o upon_o this_o ground_n because_o say_v he_o they_o who_o worship_n the_o inferior_a god_n acknowledge_v they_o inferior_a be_v so_o far_o from_o dishonour_v the_o supreme_a that_o he_o do_v that_o which_o be_v acceptable_a to_o he_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d for_o he_o that_o honour_n and_o worship_v those_o who_o be_v subject_a to_o he_o do_v not_o displease_v god_n who_o they_o be_v all_o these_o be_v celsus_n his_o word_n from_o whence_o we_o be_v to_o take_v notice_n that_o celsus_n do_v not_o plead_v for_o absolute_a and_o sovereign_a worship_n to_o be_v give_v to_o these_o inferior_a deity_n or_o spirit_n but_o only_o a_o relative_a and_o subordinate_a worship_n so_o that_o if_o the_o controversy_n have_v be_v between_o celsus_n and_o a_o modern_a romanist_n all_o that_o celsus_n here_o say_v must_v have_v be_v confess_v on_o both_o side_n and_o the_o whole_a dispute_n only_o have_v be_v concern_v those_o daemon_n or_o spirit_n which_o be_v to_o have_v this_o relative_a and_o inferior_a kind_n of_o worship_n viz._n whether_o those_o which_o celsus_n call_v daemon_n or_o only_o the_o bless_a spirit_n and_o glorify_a saint_n but_o origen_n who_o go_v upon_o other_o ground_n return_v a_o far_o different_a answer_n for_o say_v he_o it_o be_v not_o lest_o we_o shall_v hurt_v god_n that_o we_o abstain_v from_o the_o worship_n of_o any_o but_o god_n according_a to_o this_o word_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 383._o to_o render_v the_o inferior_a worship_n of_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d to_o any_o but_o god_n but_o lest_o we_o shall_v thereby_o hurt_v ourselves_o by_o separate_v ourselves_o from_o our_o portion_n in_o god_n 384._o and_o the_o reason_n he_o give_v why_o christ_n be_v to_o be_v worship_v be_v 385._o from_o that_o divinity_n which_o manifest_v itself_o in_o he_o and_o because_o of_o the_o unity_n of_o nature_n between_o god_n and_o he_o and_o although_o origen_n say_v that_o in_o some_o sense_n we_o may_v be_v say_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d to_o give_v some_o kind_n of_o worship_n to_o angel_n and_o archangel_n yet_o he_o say_v the_o sense_n of_o the_o word_n must_v be_v purge_v and_o the_o action_n of_o the_o worshipper_n distinguish_v yet_o in_o the_o follow_a word_n he_o attribute_n that_o worship_v which_o be_v by_o supplication_n only_o to_o god_n and_o his_o only_a son_n so_o that_o still_o he_o reserve_v the_o offering_n up_o our_o prayer_n as_o the_o appropriate_a worship_n to_o god_n himself_o through_o his_o only_a son_n for_o to_o he_o say_v he_o 386._o we_o first_o offer_v they_o entreat_v he_o who_o be_v the_o propitiation_n for_o our_o sin_n that_o he_o will_v vouchsafe_v as_o our_o high_a priest_n to_o offer_v our_o prayer_n sacrifice_n and_o intercession_n to_o god_n over_o all_o ibid._n therefore_o our_o faith_n be_v only_o in_o god_n through_o his_o son_n who_o have_v confirm_v it_o to_o we_o and_o afterward_o away_o say_v he_o with_o celsus_n his_o counsel_n that_o we_o shall_v worship_v daemon_n or_o inferior_a spirit_n not_o take_v they_o in_o the_o worst_a sense_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d for_o we_o must_v only_o pray_v to_o god_n over_o all_o 395._o and_o to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n his_o only_a beget_v and_o first_o bear_v of_o all_o creature_n and_o we_o must_v entreat_v he_o that_o he_o as_o high_a priest_n will_v present_v our_o prayer_n when_o it_o be_v come_v to_o he_o unto_o his_o god_n and_o our_o god_n and_o unto_o his_o father_n and_o the_o father_n of_o they_o that_o frame_v their_o life_n according_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n to_o the_o same_o purpose_n again_o in_o another_o place_n to_o who_o we_o offer_v our_o first_o fruit_n 400._o to_o he_o we_o direct_v our_o prayer_n have_v a_o high_a priest_n who_o be_v enter_v into_o heaven_n jesus_n the_o son_n of_o god_n and_o we_o hold_v fast_o this_o confession_n while_o we_o live_v through_o the_o favour_n of_o god_n and_o his_o son_n who_o be_v manifest_v to_o we_o and_o after_o say_v that_o the_o angel_n help_v forward_o their_o salvation_n who_o call_v upon_o god_n and_o pray_v sincere_o to_o who_o they_o themselves_o also_o pray_v but_o not_o one_o word_n of_o any_o pray_n to_o they_o but_o only_o to_o god_n through_o christ._n for_o as_o he_o say_v elsewhere_o we_o must_v endeavour_v to_o please_v god_n only_o who_o be_v over_o all_o 420._o and_o pray_v that_o he_o may_v be_v propitious_a to_o we_o procure_v his_o good_a will_n with_o piety_n and_o all_o kind_n of_o virtue_n but_o if_o he_o will_v yet_o have_v we_o to_o procure_v the_o good_a will_n of_o any_o other_o after_o he_o that_o be_v god_n over_o all_o let_v he_o consider_v that_o as_o when_o the_o body_n be_v move_v the_o motion_n of_o the_o shadow_n do_v follow_v it_o so_o in_o like_a manner_n have_v god_n favourable_a to_o we_o who_o be_v over_o all_o it_o follow_v that_o we_o shall_v have_v all_o his_o friend_n both_o angel_n and_o soul_n and_o spirit_n favourable_a to_o we_o for_o they_o have_v a_o sympathy_n with_o they_o that_o be_v think_v worthy_a to_o find_v favour_n with_o god_n neither_o be_v they_o only_o favourable_a unto_o such_o as_o be_v worthy_a but_o they_o cooperate_v with_o they_o also_o that_o be_v willing_a to_o serve_v god_n over_o all_o and_o be_v friendly_a to_o 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to_o prove_v it_o when_o you_o therefore_o tell_v we_o afterward_o that_o the_o universal_a church_n suppose_v the_o acknowledgement_n of_o the_o same_o vicar_n of_o christ_n and_o that_o those_o diocese_n which_o agree_v in_o this_o acknowledgement_n as_o well_o as_o in_o the_o same_o faith_n and_o communion_n of_o the_o same_o sacrament_n make_v up_o one_o and_o the_o same_o universal_a church_n when_o you_o further_o add_v that_o the_o roman_a church_n be_v therefore_o style_v the_o church_n because_o it_o be_v the_o seat_n of_o the_o vicar_n of_o christ_n and_o chief_a pastor_n of_o the_o church_n universal_a i_o can_v only_o say_v to_o all_o these_o confident_a affirmation_n that_o if_o you_o have_v sit_v in_o the_o chair_n yourself_o you_o can_v not_o have_v say_v more_o or_o prove_v less_o it_o be_v not_o therefore_o in_o what_o sense_n word_n may_v be_v take_v by_o you_o for_o who_o question_n but_o you_o may_v abuse_v word_n but_o in_o what_o sense_n they_o ought_v to_o be_v 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of_o toledo_n about_o a._n d._n 400._o last_o that_o the_o communion_n of_o infant_n be_v only_o in_o one_o kind_a either_o in_o the_o church_n or_o at_o home_n or_o that_o this_o communion_n of_o infant_n which_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n condemn_v be_v a_o due_a administration_n of_o the_o eucharist_n when_o i_o say_v you_o have_v prove_v all_o these_o thing_n the_o utmost_a you_o can_v hence_o infer_v be_v only_o that_o in_o some_o rare_a case_n and_o accidental_a occasion_n communion_n in_o one_o kind_n be_v allow_v of_o but_o what_o be_v all_o this_o to_o the_o prove_v that_o the_o state_v solemn_a administration_n of_o the_o eucharist_n in_o one_o kind_n be_v ever_o practise_v much_o less_o allow_v within_o a_o thousand_o year_n after_o christ._n and_o yet_o if_o you_o can_v prove_v that_o you_o fall_v short_a of_o vindicate_v your_o church_n unless_o you_o add_v this_o which_o you_o never_o so_o much_o as_o touch_v at_o viz._n that_o it_o be_v ever_o in_o all_o that_o time_n 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