Nor shall you ever read that they by that word pointed out such as either in City or Country had the care of some few persons distinguished by Parishes For that the Presbyters Vrban or Rural were by the Bishop designed to that imployment Who indeed at the begining were of the Bishops family and did live as you very well know of the Sportula i. e. of the Oblations of the Church before the distinction of Parishes came up And the word Calling in the sense you take it is altogether as unknown In stead whereof they used the words Ordination or Constitution And the very name of Minister is of the same stamp which they would never have understood to be spoken of any but a Deacon as it is derived indeed from no other fountain but the Greek {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} But we must pardon you you must speak the language of your Church which hath no Bishops another kind of Presbyters Elders they call them another kind of Deacons and I add another kind of Calling then ever the Antient Church acknowledged I for my part in my best wishes for your Church and so for all the Reformed do wish this that you may keep constant in the other points of Faith but for Government and Order that God would vouchsafe to you no other but that which He hath vouchsafed Vs i. e. by Bishops Presbyters and Deacons Such as those we read of in the Histories of the Church and in the Councils and the Antient Fathers unto whom or self-conceit shrewdly deceives me or most like are Our most like I say in their Order not in their Worth but would to God in their Worth also And that no Policy no form of Government in any Church whatsoever cometh neerer the sense of scripture or the manner and usage of the Antient Church then this which flourisheth among us These I intrust to you that if you please they may be with you But know withall that I have ever been both by Nature and Choice addicted to Peace And my Age now requires it of me who ere long must be packing but cheifly living under a King whose Word is that of our Saviour Blessed are the Peacemakers And I assure you I shall never incline to any immoderate or harsh counsels but shall qualifie as much as I may your writings with a fair interpretation For neither can we bragg of our happiness more then antiently S. Augustine did whose saying it was What we teach is one thing what we are fain to tolerate another To the most Reverend Father the Lord Bishop of Winchester MOst Reverend Prelate I sent unto you my Book concerning the Calling of Pastors and with it some Letters wherin I endevour'd to satisfie you touching some points wherin I seem'd to your most Gracious King too ill affected to the Order of Episcopacy Which Letters if you have received I doubt not but you will judge of me as of a man who both thinketh and speaketh honorably of your Order I am not so proudly arrogant as to oppose my self to all Antiquity and to reject that as a thing faulty and wicked which hath been received in the Church from the very next Age to the Apostles I was ever of this mind that concord might be kept whole and intire between Churches living howere under a different form of Ecclesiastical Government so that Christ be preached as he is set forth in the Gospel the Christian Faith remain safe and sound But among the rest of your Order I ever highlyest esteemed you for many causes which I had rather acquaint others then yourself withall As a witness of which my affection I send you this new Book which the command of the Church whom I serve and the impudent insulting of a Court-Iesuite forced from me I desire that you would be a means to pacifie the Kings anger against me That He would consider with Himself and weigh it in an equal ballance that there can be no place in the French Church for a Pastor that should teach the Primacy of Bishops to be of Divine Right without which there could be no salvation without which the Church could not stand To affirm this were nothing els but to damn all our Churches to the pit of Hell to pronounce the sentence of condemnation upon my own Flock Which should I do you your self would account me a sensless ungracious fellow and worthy to be spit upon by all But enough of this For an overlabored Defence specially to an understanding man and in a clear and manifest point is altogether needless God preserve you and prosper your endeavours that they may redound to the edification of the Church Farewell Paris XVI Calends of Decemb. 1618. Your Honors most devoted Peter Moulin The Bishops Answer to the Second Epistle THe Post was not yet gone he staied here a day or two but he had these letters here inclosed sealed up as they are when lo I received your Second by the hands of S. William Beecher Agent for the King lately come from you I presently recalled my former yet opened them not but as they were inclosed them in these For I would not so trespass as to commit the same fault again but rather make amends for my former tardiness with the quickness of this Answer You shall therfore with my First receive these Second together with my thanks for both but {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} the First Second as it were to wit in these Second Letters my First thanks now and in the First my Second as it falls out Thanks I say both for that your Book formerly sent and this Later shortly as I hope to be sent For S. William Beecher will deny either that it was bound when he came thence or els brought to him and in that consideration he came the later to me but he bad me look for it for that I should not look in vain As for pacifying the Kings anger against you beleeve me you need not much trouble your self There is nothing in Him which needs pacifying there are ways wherby you may more and more gain him and make him yours and it would be worth your labour if you do it And do it you may if you take that course which you cannot learn better of any man living then of himself As for me I gladly acknowledg that you are more moderate toward us then most of your men commonly are and the more you convers with Antiquity will be daily more and more nay I add and much more would be if your Church would give you leave and I would to God it would It should seem that shee hath transfer'd the faults of Persons upon Things and for some abuse hath taken away the lawful use a fault which you should by little and little unlearn Her You while you follow and sway with it follow not the bent of your own mind and iudgment for Iiudg of your affection by your pen
Two Orders and those distinct And this likewise we know that every where among the Fathers Bishops and Presbyters are taken to be after their example That Bishops succeeded the Apostles and Presbyters the Seventy two That these Two Orders were by our Lord appointed in those two Cyprian k Deacons must remember that our Lord chose the Apostles that is Bishops and Prelates But the Apostles after the Ascension of our Lord appointed Deacons for themselves as Ministers of their Episcopacy and of the Church Nay S. Hierom l With us Bishops hold the place of the Apostles All Bishops are successors of the Apostles And that is a famous place in him in him and S. Augustine too upon the 44. Psalm In stead of thy Fathers thou shalt have children i.e. in stead of Apostles Bishops S. Ambros in 1. Corinth 12. 28. God hath set in the Church Caput Apostolos first Apostles Now the Apostles are Bishops the Apostle S. Peter giving us assurance of it And his Bishoprick let another take And a little after Are all Apostles He saith right for in one Church but one Bishop And in Ephes. 4. The Apostles are the Bishops From hence we have a fair passage to the last point Whether this Order be by Divine Right Very glad I was to hear it from you That the Authority of Antiquity should be ever in great esteem with you I love you for that word Nor will it be the least of your praises if your deeds make your words good For my part it hath been my opinion ever I was ever of that mind But or I am deceiv'd in the whole story of Antiquity or the Apostolical men i. e. the Disciples of the Apostles or as Eusebius calls them {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} they that conversed with them both they who are not mentioned in Holy Scripture as Polycarpus and Ignatius and they who are expresly mentioned as Timothy Titus Clemens were Bishops while the Apostles were alive and were constituted and ordained by the Apostles themselves (a) Polycarp by S. John (b) Clemens by S. Peter (c) Titus and (d) Timothy by S. Paul I give you these witnesses Concerning Polycarp (e) Irenaeus (f) Tertullian (g) Eusebius (h) Hierom. Concerning Ignatius (i) Eusebius and (k) Hierom. Concerning Timothy (l) Eusebius (m) Hierom (n) Ambrose (o) Chrysostom (p) Epiphanius Concerning Titus (q) Eusebius (r) Ambrose (s) Theodoret Concerning Clement (t) Tertullian (u) Eusebius (x) Hierom. Not to speak of (y) Linus z Dionysius (a) Onesimus (b) Epaphroditus (c) Caius (d) Archippus concerning whom we have the like testimonies of the Fathers And not of these alone even S. Mark the Evangelist and that while the Apostles lived who saw it for S. Mark dyed in the (e) Eighth year of Nero full Five years before S. Peter and S. Paul were crown'd with martyrdom And not He alone S. Iames also the Apostle Witness for S. Mark (f) Hierom for S. Iames (g) Eusebius out of Clement and Hegesippus (h) Hierome (i) Chrysostom (k) Ambrose (l) Epiphanius (m) Augustine Could any then take it ill that you said That Episcopacy was received in the Church from the very next times to the Apostles you said too little you might have said more and if you had Antiquity would have born you out that it was received from the Apostles themselves and that they the Apostles themselves were constituted in the Episcopal Order There was nothing in that passage of yours that any could be offended with unless haply that in stead of was called the Bishop you should have said was the Bishop For we do not contend about the Name all the controversy is about the Thing This was done or we must give one general dash through all the Ecclesiastical Historians And when was it done After the Ascension of our Lord saith Eusebius (n) Presently upon the Passion of our Lord so S. Hierom. (o) Done by whom They were placed in the Office of Episcopacy by the Apostles (p) Tertullian By the Apostles so Epiphanius By the Ministers of our Lord so (q) Eusebius Ordeined by the Apostles so (r) S. Hierom. Constituted by the Apostles (s) so S. Ambrose Will any man then deny that S. Iames S. Mark Titus Clemens were Bishops by Apostolical Right Was any thing done by the Apostles which was not by Apostolical Right By Apostolical i. e. as I interpret it by Divine For nothing was done by the Apostles that the Holy Ghost the Divine Spirit did not dictate to them Sure if by the Apostles by the same Right which those Seven were by Acts. 6. whom I am sure you your self will grant to be by Divine Right Deacons the Holy Scripture doth no where call them that is only a word of the Church I hope what the Apostles did they did by Divine Right and that it cannot be denyed but their Deeds of which we are certain not only their Words or Writings are of Divine Right And not only those things of which S. Paul wrote to the Corinthians (t) but those other also which He set in order at His being at Corinth if they were known to us what they were were by the same right to wit by Divine all of them both these and they from the Holy Spirit all And yet though they be by Divine Right we do not say these things belong to Faith They belong to the Agenda or Practice of the Church to the Credenda or points of Faith t is but improper to refer them T is very strange therfore which you say That your Countrymen openly complain of you both that you vndertook the cause of Bishops bylike your Country-men are enemies to Bishops would not have their cause pleaded but are desirous it should be lost as also that you condemned Aerius who was antiently condemned in Asia by Epiphanius in Europe by Philastrius in Africa by S. Augustine whose name all the world over is in the Black-Book of Hereticks nor undeservedly seeing He durst oppose himself as you your self confess to the Consent and Practice of the Catholik Church You should rather complain of them who for this complain of you As for that where you would not have your papers to be ript up to the quick I know no body here that doth it Should any he would have somewhat to stick upon in the very Title take which word you will that of Pastor or that of Calling They are both novelties the word Pastor I 'm sure in this sense and Calling too and not of any Age but this last nor of all that For I pray who of the Antients ever spake so among whom you shall scarce find the word Pastor used but when they speak of Bishops which form of speech S. Peter taught them when he joined Pastor and Bishop in our Saviour
the refractory Such things as appertain to Salvation and to Faith were ordered by the Apostles by a Divine Inspiration but in the rest they did often use their own prudence as S. Paul intimates 1. Corinth 7.25 Nor are you ignorant so oft as examples are brought of Bishops placed by the Apostles in a higher degree above Presbyters what is commonly answered viz. that they had not that preeminence as Bishops but as Evangelists of whose superiority above Pastors somewhat you may have in S. Chrysostom on the IV. to the Ephesians Which reply of what strength it is I had rather stand to your iudgment then any mans Indeed S. Ambrose on that same place makes Evangelists inferior to Bishops and without Seas Yet however you shall call Titus Timothy and S. Mark whether Bishops or Evangelists it is clear they had Bishops their successors and heirs of their preeminence You determine therfore that our Churches do offend against the Divine Right yet so as you exclude them not from hope of salvation but do think that in our Church Government men may attain to Salvation for this you brought in in your Second Letter that you might deal the kindlier with us But in your larger you liken us in this point to Aerius who you say was deservedly upon this ground by the Antients put in the black Book of Hereticks Herein Great Sir I appeal to your equity Think with your self what streits you drive me to For if I should have spoke as you conceive it I could not but necessarily accuse our Church of Heresie and so doing be forced {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} to be packing to leave my station here and to provide for my self as I could Nor could I say that the Primacy of Bishops is by Divine Right but I should brand our Churches which have spilt so much blood for Christ with Heresie For questionless to be obstinately set against such things as are of Divine Right and peremptorily to gainsay what God commands is downright Heresie whether it concern Faith or Discipline Besides that I should have overthrown that Principle wherwith cheifly our Religion defends her self against Popery viz. That what things are by Divine Right are sufficiently and evidently contein'd in the Holy Scriptures I hear what you will reply That it had been safer and better for me to have been silent in these points then itch to be writing so unseasonably Because therby it comes to pass that I must necessarily offend our own Church or your nay haply both And to tell you truth I had rather have been silent for very unwillingly I sett my mind to write nor did I write but upon command Arnoldus the Iesuite the Kings Confessor publikely and in the pulpit before His Majestie inveigh'd against the Confession of our Church and further in a pestilent book revil'd it wherin he mightily insults over us in this question and odiously seeks to overthrow our Churches Government This book coming to be sold all over France through the high ways and streets at the voice of a Cryer did greatly scandalize many Nay before this the Pulpits the Markets the Court the Streets and the very Barbers shops rang with this question This is the field wherin wanton witts sport themselves daily How earnestly my Book was look'd for which should stop that insolency it doth thence appear that in Four months space it was nine times printed I could not therfore shun this task Nor was it possible to write exactly of that Argument but I must begin with the signification of the words Bishop and Presbyter and treat of the Original of the Office But here I took occasion to speak honorably of the Bishops of England I deriv'd the dignity of Bishops from the very infancy of the Church I condemn'd Aerius I said that S. Iames himself was Bishop of Hierusalem from whom in a long course the succession of Bishops of that City is deduced Only this one thing was wanting viz. that I did not say that our Church was heretical and did trample the Divine Right under her feet which indeed I neither could nor ought to do yea had I done it you your self would have noted that want of prudence in me This may serve for the Three chief points To which you further add this {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} or corollary namely your iudgment touching the Title of my book which I wrote for France Of the Calling of Pastors These words you say are novell and never used by any of the Antients in this sense I acknowledg indeed that the word Calling is unusual among the Antients nor taken in that sense But we Frenchmen speak otherwise for as many as have wrote of that Argument either Our or Papists use this word which with us signifies somewhat more then Ordination for it is taken for the Office it self If I had wrote in Latin I should have given this Title of the Office and Ordination of Pastors Neither would you have all Presbyters and Ministers of the Word of God to be called by the name of Pastors For this word you say belongs only to Bishops and that the Antients spake so If this be true Worthy Sir the Churches in France Germany Lowcountrys and Helvetia are flocks without a Pastor But S. Paul Acts the xx commandeth the Presbyters of Ephesus pascere i. e. to be Pastors of the Church v. 17. 28. And S. Peter in his 1. Epist. 5. ch. 1. 2. v. The Presbyters who are among you I exhort Pascite feed the flock of God which is among you taking the over-sight therof not by constraint but willingly not for filthy lucre which exhortation to diligence and shunning filthy lucre no doubt belongs also to the inferior Presbyters Now to think that they ought not be called Pastors whom God commands Pascere to feed the flock I cannot persuade my self But if the Word of God be Pabulum the food of Souls I see not why he should not be call'd a Pastor who doth administer this food S. Paul in the fourth to the Ephesians verse 11. makes an enumeration of Ecclesiastical Offices God gave some Apostles some Prophets some Evangelists some Pastors and Teachers If Presbyters who labour in the Word whom we Frenchmen call Ministers be not understood under the name of Pastors I see not what place they can have in this enumeration of the Apostle S. Augustine in his 59. Epistle saith that Pastors and Doctors here are the same The same thinketh S. Hierom upon this place of S. Paul Vincentius Lirinensis expounding this place maketh no mention of Pastors but comprehends them vnder Doctors whom he calls Treatisers who certainly were a different thing from Bishops But that Bishops only are Doctors I never yet read anywhere S. Ambrose is so far from thinking the name of Pastors to belong only to Bishops that he even calls Readers Pastors Readers saith he are and may be Pastors who fatten the souls of
commonly growes from Equality how comes it to pass that there is no need of this remedy among you Again if it be true that this Form of Government was received every where by all Churches that which was every where receiv'd by all why doth not your Church receive why doth She only run counter to all the Churches which then were every where For that is a most true word you said and deserv'd an asterisk of commendation That all Churches everywhere receiv'd this Form of Government Nor were there ever before this Age any Churches which were governed by any other then by Bishops Wherfore there was no cause at all that you should go about to wipe off that suspition for I had none of you that you were not well affected to our Order I shall never be induced to beleeve it for I cannot but give credit to you affirming it in your Letters that your Countrymen complain of you for favoring and wishing so well vnto it Indeed that you wish well I doubt not at all but therto I am more perswaded by your word then by your arguments For here you slip from the Order to the Persons of Bishops of whose Learning Industrie Martyrdom you speak much and excellently But there were as you know of old men that hated the Tyrant but not his Tyranny and why not now men that love Bishops but not the Government by Bishops Pass by the men therfore it matters not for them speak of the Order it self For Calvin himself and Beza if they wrote to our Prelates know that they wrote likewise to them whom you call peevish and that their Letters which these pretend for their peevishness are produced by them and thus they oft reply To what purpose do I hear Calvins Words when I see his Deeds For the Order it self if it be such as you would have it seem the Bishops of England cannot make it better nor of Spain worse I advis'd you not to transferr the faults of Persons upon Things and to unlearn your Church that custom As for those Antients whom you worthily call the Light of the Church and who themselves were Bishops though you say much yet you say not enough For this is not enough That you would not give sentence against them That they were not wrongfully made That they did not usurp an unlawfull Office These are but terms of diminution Not give sentence against Not wrongfully made not usurpers of an unlawfull Office speak out speak as the truth is That they were lawfully made lawfully if ever any and did exercise a most lawfull Office That our at this day are to be made after their example That the same Office is to be exercised by all Ours These speak home to the Order are nothing to the Men But whatever become of those passages I cannot but commend your conclusion there nor shall I stick to set an asterisk of approbation upon it I would to God that might put an end to the whole controversie betwixt us It is this The venerable Antiquity of those first Ages shall be ever in greater esteem with me then the new upstart device of any whosoever O would to God that Antiquity might be more and more in esteem with you with all for if Antiquity might prevail if these new upstart devices were discarded then sure the Cause of this Order could not be in danger The Second dash of dislike set by His Majestie and very justly was at that place where you contend that the Order of Bishop and Presbyter is one and the same I have shew'd that it is not the same Both 1. Because the Offices are not the same For a Presbyter doth not Ordain no not in S. Hieroms iudgment As also 2. Because there is not the same Imposition of hands but a new one in a Bishop Again 3. Because among the Fathers Isidore clearly calls it the Order of Bishops And lastly 4. Because those Two Orders were distinguished by Christ in the Apostles and the Seventy Two Here you produce to us the Title of the Pontifical which is concerning Consecration not Ordination I shew'd that the Antient Bishops even of Rome it self spake otherwise otherwise the later Popes Among the Antient that the word Ordination was most usual and most approved You appeal to the Schole I acquainted you in what sense the Schole calls them the same or not the same The same in reference to the Body of Christ upon which they terminat their Seven Orders About the Body of Christ a Presbyter doth as much as a Bishop You your self say as much Of these in respect of the Body of Christ the Church of Rome makes but one Order Not the same if you respect the power to a special Act viz. of Ordination which is peculiar to a Bishop This is not mine as you imagin'd but the definition of Orders all the Schole over Nor yet that difference which afterward you put upon me both of them are from the Schole both definition and difference These things if you would speak Scholastically were not to be deny'd by you who appeal'd to the Schole But to what purpose do you say that you deal with or that you dispute against the Pontificians who will not have the Order of Bishops distinct from that of Presbyters And yet presently you subjoin Ought I to inveigh against them viz. the Pontificians because they do not make the Order of Bishops distinct from that of Presbyters when Our Churches do not make it neither He that should do this should not so much contest with the Church of Rome as with our own You dispute therfore against them but yet you will not inveigh against them you dispute against the Pontificians and yet you allege their Pontifical You dispute against them yet your own Churches do the self same thing Nor yet will you affirm what ought to be beleev'd but what the Church of Rome thinketh which thinketh the very same that your Church doth and your Church I beleeve you would have to be beleev'd You do not therfore contest with the Pontificians for I trow you have no mind to contest with your own 'T were against your Religion so to do Nevertheless your Church as you confess doth the same thing in this point that the Roman doth You say it is best to use proper terms that the things which differ in substance be distinguished in Name and yet in the same page afterward as if you were somwhat angry you ask To what end is it to stick so much upon the distinction of Words To what end then is it to make proper words which are made proper for no other end but for distinction If this be to no end it is better trust me neither to use proper words nor to make any words at all proper for we must use the better both you and we Notwithstanding this why do you reject the distinction of words here Because every Order you say is a Degree What then Since every Degree is