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sense_n scripture_n spirit_n word_n 6,083 5 4.6960 4 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A28837 A conference with Mr. Claude, minister of Charenton, concerning the authority of the church by James Benigne Bossuet, Bishop of Meaux ... ; faithfully done into English out of the French original.; Conference avec M. Claude, ministre de Charenton, sur la matière de l'eglise. English Bossuet, Jacques Bénigne, 1627-1704.; Claude, Jean, 1619-1687. 1687 (1687) Wing B3780; ESTC R23256 107,935 138

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pass_v again_o over_o the_o doubt_n in_o which_o one_o must_v be_v touch_v the_o scripture_n if_o one_o doubt_v of_o the_o church_n authority_n she_o say_v she_o never_o so_o much_o as_o thought_n that_o a_o christian_n may_v doubt_v one_o moment_n of_o the_o scripture_n and_o beside_o she_o perfect_o understand_v that_o mr._n claude_n reject_v the_o name_n of_o doubt_n acknowledge_v the_o thing_n in_o other_o term_n which_o serve_v only_o to_o make_v appear_v how_o hard_o this_o matter_n be_v both_o to_o think_v and_o say_v since_o be_v force_v to_o own_o it_o he_o think_v not_o fit_a to_o do_v it_o in_o simple_a term_n for_o in_o fine_a not_o to_o know_v whether_o a_o thing_n be_v or_o no_o if_o it_o be_v not_o to_o doubt_v be_v nothing_o it_o appear_v then_o clear_o that_o the_o two_o proposition_n which_o be_v in_o debate_n be_v establish_v and_o i_o show_v mademoiselle_n de_fw-fr duras_n in_o few_o word_n that_o her_o church_n by_o believe_v two_o such_o strange_a thing_n have_v 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than_o the_o precedent_a assembly_n but_o only_o that_o after_o all_o have_v be_v try_v they_o come_v to_o the_o last_o remedy_n that_o for_o the_o promise_v make_v before_o the_o national_a synod_n it_o be_v found_v only_o on_o the_o hope_n they_o have_v that_o the_o assembly_n will_v follow_v gods_n word_n and_o that_o the_o holy_a ghost_n will_v preside_v in_o it_o which_o signify_v not_o that_o there_o be_v a_o entire_a certainty_n and_o beside_o that_o the_o word_n be_v persuade_v be_v a_o honest_a manner_n of_o express_v a_o condition_n without_o weaken_v the_o reverence_n of_o so_o great_a a_o assembly_n or_o the_o favourable_a presumption_n that_o aught_o to_o be_v have_v for_o their_o proceed_n as_o to_o the_o condemnation_n of_o the_o independent_o he_o pray_v meto_fw-la observe_v that_o touch_v the_o authority_n of_o the_o church_n and_o her_o assembly_n there_o be_v something_o in_o which_o those_o of_o his_o religion_n agree_v with_o we_o and_o something_o in_o which_o 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their_o administer_a the_o word_n or_o sacrament_n or_o hold_v of_o synod_n that_o in_o this_o i_o shall_v believe_v he_o as_o better_v instruct_v but_o that_o here_o i_o pretend_v it_o have_v happen_v to_o they_o as_o it_o do_v to_o all_o those_o who_o be_v in_o error_n that_o be_v to_o fall_v into_o contradiction_n and_o be_v force_v to_o set_v up_o what_o they_o have_v deny_v that_o i_o know_v they_o deny_v any_o obligation_n of_o submittingto_o the_o church_n judgement_n without_o examine_v it_o but_o that_o at_o the_o same_o time_n i_o pretend_v this_o infallibility_n of_o the_o church_n to_o be_v so_o necessary_a that_o even_o those_o who_o deny_v it_o in_o speculation_n can_v not_o forbear_v establish_v it_o in_o practice_n if_o they_o will_v keep_v any_o order_n among_o they_o beside_o that_o if_o the_o question_n be_v here_o about_o show_v any_o contradiction_n in_o the_o sentiment_n of_o the_o catholic_a church_n i_o shall_v not_o pretend_v to_o oblige_v he_o to_o receive_v the_o explication_n i_o shall_v give_v he_o of_o her_o sentiment_n and_o her_o counsel_n but_o that_o it_o shall_v then_o be_v free_a for_o he_o to_o draw_v from_o their_o word_n such_o inference_n as_o he_o please_v and_o i_o think_v he_o will_v not_o refuse_v i_o as_o much_o to_o which_o he_o consent_v without_o difficulty_n i_o have_v no_o design_n to_o insist_v much_o on_o the_o synod_n of_o sainte_n foy_n which_o will_v i_o think_v cast_v i_o too_o far_o from_o the_o two_o proposition_n the_o acknowledgement_n of_o which_o i_o aim_v to_o draw_v from_o he_o i_o only_o therefore_o answer_v that_o i_o yield_v to_o the_o reason_n he_o allege_v concern_v the_o necessity_n of_o a_o ratification_n tho'_o in_o matter_n of_o faith_n such_o power_n and_o trust_n be_v alittle_o extraordinary_a and_o beside_o i_o be_v willing_a to_o believe_v that_o the_o synod_n have_v no_o design_n the_o deputy_n shall_v overturn_v all_o but_o that_o which_o touch_v i_o and_o which_o he_o seem_v not_o to_o 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common_a faith_n but_o only_o of_o establish_v this_o toleration_n by_o a_o synodal_n decree_n as_o have_v be_v do_v at_o charenton_n mr._n claude_n answer_v that_o the_o point_n of_o doctrine_n to_o be_v decide_v be_v whether_o a_o mutual_a toleration_n may_v be_v establish_v and_o that_o the_o confession_n of_o common_a faith_n will_v have_v do_v nothing_o else_o but_o declare_v this_o toleration_n which_o he_o deny_v not_o but_o it_o may_v be_v do_v in_o a_o synod_n as_o i_o must_v grant_v that_o it_o may_v also_o be_v do_v in_o a_o confession_n of_o faith_n where_o there_o shall_v have_v be_v a_o express_a article_n to_o that_o purpose_n i_o answer_v he_o that_o this_o can_v never_o be_v call_v a_o confession_n of_o common_a faith_n and_o ask_v he_o whether_o he_o think_v the_o lutheran_n or_o they_o shall_v have_v retrench_v any_o thing_n of_o what_o the_o one_o say_v for_o the_o reality_n and_o the_o other_o against_o it_o he_o answer_v i_o no._n and_o then_o say_v i_o each_o 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condition_n i_o have_v interrupt_v he_o by_o put_v in_o a_o word_n yes_o say_v i_o they_o hope_v well_o of_o the_o synod_n yet_o without_o certainty_n and_o expect_v the_o event_n they_o forbear_v not_o to_o swear_v they_o will_v submit_v mr._n claude_n tell_v i_o here_o that_o i_o interrupt_v he_o and_o pray_v i_o to_o let_v he_o say_v all_o i_o hold_v my_o peace_n but_o after_o the_o affair_n of_o sainte_n foy_n be_v discuss_v i_o say_v to_o he_o that_o i_o think_v it_o necessary_a before_o we_o pass_v any_o far_a i_o shall_v tell_v he_o in_o a_o few_o word_n what_o i_o have_v conceive_v of_o his_o doctrine_n to_o the_o end_n we_o may_v not_o speak_v in_o the_o air_n i_o say_v then_o to_o he_o you_o say_v sir_n that_o these_o word_n be_v persuade_v that_o god_n will_v preside_v in_o it_o and_o guide_v you_o by_o his_o holy_a spirit_n in_o all_o truth_n and_o equity_n through_o the_o rule_n of_o his_o word_n be_v only_o a_o honest_a manner_n of_o propose_v a_o condition_n he_o agree_v it_o let_v we_o then_o say_v i_o reduce_v the_o proposition_n into_o a_o conditional_a one_o and_o we_o shall_v see_v what_o will_v be_v the_o sense_n of_o it_o i_o swear_v to_o submit_v to_o all_o you_o shall_v decide_v on_o this_o supposition_n or_o condition_n that_o what_o you_o shall_v decide_v be_v agreeable_a to_o gods_n word_n such_o a_o oath_n be_v nothing_o else_o but_o a_o manifest_a illusion_n as_o signify_v nothing_o and_o be_v but_o what_o i_o may_v make_v to_o mr._n claude_n or_o he_o to_o i_o but_o in_o this_o there_o will_v not_o be_v any_o thing_n serious_a and_o it_o be_v to_o be_v observe_v that_o something_o more_o particular_a must_v be_v aim_v at_o since_o this_o oath_n be_v only_o make_v to_o the_o synod_n which_o give_v the_o final_a determination_n tho'_o in_o mr._n claude_n sense_n there_o be_v as_o much_o reason_n to_o make_v it_o to_o the_o consistory_n to_o which_o they_o ought_v to_o submit_v as_o well_o as_o to_o the_o synod_n suppose_v it_o have_v the_o 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than_o the_o rest_n that_o all_o this_o persuasion_n which_o serve_v for_o a_o ground_n to_o the_o oath_n be_v a_o clause_n of_o civility_n the_o term_n whereof_o must_v not_o be_v abuse_v mr._n claude_n have_v no_o other_o reply_n and_o this_o be_v the_o only_a one_o which_o still_o appear_v in_o his_o relation_n thus_o this_o so_o serious_a and_o solemn_a a_o oath_n of_o all_o our_o reform_a and_o their_o church_n in_o a_o body_n to_o their_o national_a synod_n be_v reduce_v to_o this_o proposition_n which_o will_v be_v in_o the_o bottom_n but_o a_o insignificant_a compliment_n we_o swear_v before_o god_n to_o submit_v to_o all_o that_o you_o shall_v decide_v if_o you_o decide_v by_o his_o word_n as_o we_o hope_v and_o presume_v you_o will_n but_o why_o then_o be_v not_o this_o great_a oath_n pronounce_v in_o these_o term_n but_o that_o they_o well_o see_v to_o reduce_v it_o to_o these_o term_n will_v be_v to_o say_v nothing_o and_o they_o will_v say_v or_o at_o least_o seem_v to_o 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of_o it_o a_o bare_a human_a presumption_n as_o mr._n claude_n call_v it_o a_o clause_n of_o civility_n as_o mr._n jurieux_n style_v it_o can_v be_v the_o matter_n and_o foundation_n of_o a_o oath_n we_o also_o see_v that_o not_o only_o private_a person_n but_o also_o consistory_n and_o whole_a province_n perceive_v in_o this_o oath_n something_o strong_a than_o they_o will_v at_o present_a let_v we_o understand_v in_o it_o insomuch_o that_o they_o make_v a_o great_a resistance_n against_o it_o which_o can_v not_o be_v vanquish_v but_o by_o a_o long_a time_n and_o the_o reiterated_a decree_n of_o national_a synod_n i_o see_v this_o resistance_n continue_v till_o the_o year_n 1631._o in_o this_o year_n and_o before_o i_o find_v almost_o continual_o in_o the_o national_a synod_n whole_a province_n censure_v because_o
not_o this_o difficulty_n to_o show_v seq_n vid._n sup._n p._n 2_o 3._o &_o seq_n that_o the_o word_n church_n signify_v in_o the_o creed_n a_o visible_a church_n i_o lay_v for_o a_o foundation_n that_o in_o a_o confession_n of_o faith_n such_o as_o this_o creed_n be_v word_n be_v use_v in_o their_o most_o natural_a and_o most_o simple_a signification_n and_o i_o add_v that_o the_o word_n church_n signify_v so_o natural_o the_o visible_a church_n that_o the_o pretend_a reform_a author_n of_o the_o chimaera_n of_o a_o invisible_a church_n in_o all_o their_o confession_n of_o faith_n never_o use_v the_o word_n church_n in_o this_o sense_n but_o only_o to_o express_v the_o visible_a church_n clothe_v with_o the_o sacrament_n with_o the_o word_n and_o with_o all_o the_o public_a ministry_n see_v the_o passage_n of_o the_o confession_n of_o faith_n i_o have_v relate_v with_o the_o consequence_n i_o have_v draw_v from_o they_o i_o be_v not_o the_o first_o who_o make_v this_o remark_n it_o be_v he_o national_a synod_n of_o the_o pretend_a reform_v these_o gentleman_n who_o have_v so_o much_o preach_v the_o invisible_a church_n and_o who_o be_v press_v upon_o the_o succession_n ground_v on_o this_o foundation_n the_o invisible_a succession_n of_o which_o they_o make_v use_v wonder_v they_o have_v not_o speak_v one_o single_a word_n of_o it_o in_o their_o confession_n of_o faith_n where_o on_o the_o contrary_a the_o word_n church_n be_v always_o take_v for_o the_o visible_a church_n surprise_v with_o this_o language_n so_o natural_a to_o christian_n but_o so_o little_a conformable_a to_o the_o principle_n of_o their_o reformation_n they_o make_v this_o decree_n in_o the_o year_n 1603._o 3._o syn._n the_o gap_n sur_fw-fr la_fw-fr conf._n de_fw-fr foy_fw-fr art_n 3._o in_o the_o synod_n of_o gap_n in_o the_o chapter_n which_o have_v for_o its_o title_n on_o the_o confession_n of_o faith_n it_o be_v by_o this_o all_o the_o synod_n begin_v and_o the_o first_o thing_n that_o be_v do_v in_o they_o be_v to_o review_v this_o confession_n of_o faith_n which_o give_v occasion_n to_o the_o printer_n to_o re-imprint_a it_o with_o this_o title_n 1612._o syn._n de_fw-fr privas_n 1612._o forbid_v in_o the_o synod_n the_o confession_n of_o faith_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n review_v and_o correct_v in_o the_o national_a synod_n but_o let_v we_o come_v to_o the_o decree_n of_o gap_n of_o which_o these_o be_v the_o word_n the_o province_n shall_v be_v exhort_v to_o consider_v in_o the_o provincial_a synod_n in_o what_o term_n the_o xxv_o article_n of_o the_o confession_n of_o faith_n ought_v to_o be_v couch_v forasmuch_o as_o be_v to_o express_v what_o we_o believe_v touch_v the_o catholic_n church_n of_o which_o mention_n be_v make_v in_o the_o creed_n there_o be_v nothing_o in_o the_o say_a confession_n that_o can_v be_v take_v but_o for_o the_o militant_a and_o visible_a church_n as_o also_o in_o the_o xxix_o article_n they_o shall_v see_v whether_o it_o be_v fit_a to_o add_v the_o word_n pure_a to_o the_o word_n the_o church_n which_o be_v in_o the_o say_a article_n and_o in_o general_a all_o shall_v come_v prepare_v on_o the_o matter_n of_o the_o church_n we_o have_v relate_v the_o substance_n of_o this_o xxv_o article_n you_o may_v in_o the_o same_o place_n see_v the_o xxvi_o 3._o vid._n sup._n p._n 3._o xxvii_o and_o xxviii_o article_n and_o for_o the_o xxix_o article_n it_o say_v that_o the_o true_a church_n ought_v to_o be_v govern_v according_a to_o the_o policy_n which_o our_o lord_n jesus_n christ_n have_v establish_v that_o be_v that_o there_o be_v pastor_n overseer_n and_o deacon_n to_o the_o end_n the_o pure_a doctrine_n may_v have_v its_o course_n and_o the_o assembly_n be_v keep_v in_o the_o name_n of_o god._n the_o addition_n of_o the_o word_n pure_a church_n which_o they_o deliberate_v to_o add_v to_o that_o of_o true_a be_v found_v on_o a_o doctrine_n of_o the_o pretend_a reform_a which_o say_v that_o a_o true_a church_n may_v not_o be_v pure_a because_o with_o the_o essential_a truth_n it_o may_v have_v error_n mix_v i_o say_v even_o gross_a and_o considerable_a error_n against_o the_o faith_n and_o this_o be_v one_o of_o the_o mystery_n of_o the_o new_a reformation_n which_o mr._n claude_n will_v explain_v to_o we_o by_o and_o by_o but_o it_o be_v not_o here_o in_o question_n what_o there_o be_v important_a be_v that_o these_o people_n who_o say_v they_o be_v send_v of_o god_n to_o raise_v again_o the_o pure_a doctrine_n of_o the_o gospel_n be_v to_o explicate_v as_o themselves_o declare_v in_o their_o confession_n of_o faith_n the_o church_n of_o which_o mention_n be_v make_v in_o the_o creed_n speak_v nevertheless_o only_o of_o the_o militant_a and_o visible_a church_n i_o can_v easy_o tell_v you_o the_o reason_n it_o be_v that_o this_o church_n of_o which_o mention_n be_v make_v in_o the_o creed_n be_v indeed_o the_o visible_a church_n it_o be_v that_o the_o word_n church_n natural_o import_v this_o visibility_n and_o the_o word_n catholic_n be_v so_o far_o from_o derogate_a from_o it_o that_o it_o suppose_v it_o it_o be_v that_o in_o a_o confession_n of_o faith_n one_o often_o happen_v to_o speak_v rather_o according_a to_o the_o natural_a idea_n the_o word_n bear_v with_o they_o than_o according_a to_o the_o refinement_n and_o interpretation_n one_o have_v invent_v to_o free_v himself_o out_o of_o some_o difficulty_n thus_o the_o invisible_a church_n present_v not_o itself_o at_o all_o to_o our_o reform_a when_o they_o frame_v their_o confession_n of_o faith_n the_o sense_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n appear_v only_o in_o it_o there_o be_v nothing_o see_v in_o this_o but_o natural_a till_o the_o year_n 1603._o in_o 1603_o they_o awake_v they_o begin_v to_o find_v it_o strange_a that_o a_o church_n which_o found_v her_o succession_n in_o the_o idea_n of_o a_o invisible_a church_n and_o of_o a_o church_n of_o the_o predestinate_a shall_v not_o have_v say_v one_o word_n of_o it_o in_o her_o confession_n of_o faith_n but_o have_v leave_v it_o for_o evident_a that_o the_o natural_a signification_n of_o the_o word_n church_n always_o import_v a_o visible_a society_n so_o that_o to_o speak_v true_o the_o succession_n of_o the_o church_n will_v no_o long_o be_v show_v without_o show_v the_o succession_n of_o her_o visibility_n a_o thing_n utter_o impossible_a for_o the_o new_a reformation_n it_o be_v this_o incline_v the_o whole_a synod_n to_o desire_v the_o go_v again_o over_o this_o article_n and_o to_o exhort_v the_o province_n to_o come_v ready_o prepare_v upon_o the_o matter_n of_o the_o church_n which_o have_v never_o be_v well_o understand_v among_o the_o new_a reform_a which_o be_v not_o yet_o understand_v and_o which_o will_v make_v all_o those_o catholic_n that_o can_v thorough_o understand_v they_o but_o the_o go_n over_o this_o article_n again_o be_v a_o very_a nice_a affair_n it_o be_v to_o awaken_v all_o understanding_n it_o be_v too_o visible_o to_o mark_v the_o defect_n and_o give_v the_o printer_n more_o occasion_n than_o ever_o to_o entitle_v it_o the_o confession_n review_v and_o correct_v thus_o in_o the_o synod_n of_o rochel_n hold_v in_o 1607_o it_o be_v resolve_v not_o to_o add_v or_o diminish_v any_o thing_n in_o the_o xxv_o and_o xxix_o article_n nor_o to_o meddle_v afresh_o with_o the_o matter_n of_o the_o church_n by_o the_o decision_n of_o this_o synod_n the_o visible_a church_n alone_o appear_v in_o the_o pretend_a reformeds_n confession_n of_o faith_n the_o invisible_a church_n have_v no_o part_n in_o it_o and_o one_o draw_v from_o it_o consequence_n as_o one_o can_v that_o 4._o vid._n sup._n p._n 4._o which_o i_o draw_v pinch_v they_o for_o if_o the_o church_n appear_v only_o as_o visible_a in_o the_o pretend_a reformeds_n confession_n of_o faith_n and_o if_o beside_o they_o assert_v this_o confession_n of_o faith_n as_o conformable_a in_o all_o point_n to_o the_o scripture_n they_o must_v tell_v we_o that_o this_o manner_n of_o explicate_v the_o church_n come_v from_o the_o scripture_n and_o that_o from_o the_o scripture_n it_o have_v pass_v natural_o into_o the_o ordinary_a language_n of_o christian_n into_o the_o confession_n of_o faith_n and_o consequent_o into_o the_o creed_n which_o be_v not_o only_o the_o best_a authorise_a of_o all_o confession_n of_o faith_n but_o also_o the_o most_o simple_a mr._n claude_n answer_v we_o 1._o man._n anf._n q._n 1._o that_o the_o custom_n change_v and_o that_o by_o process_n of_o time_n word_n often_o depart_v from_o their_o first_o and_o natural_a signification_n and_o that_o beside_o tho'_o it_o shall_v be_v true_a as_o i_o have_v say_v that_o the_o word_n church_n take_v simple_o shall_v signify_v the_o visible_a church_n the_o word_n universal_a will_v change_v this_o signification_n but_o he_o shall_v not_o escape_v we_o by_o this_o