Church Ergo Other Churches also M. SMITH I deny the Minor The Apostolical Church did not erre in a maine point of Fayth M. WALKER The act of Christs Resurrection from the dead taught in Scripture is a fundamentall point of Fayth The Apostolicall church did erre in it Ergo c. M. SMITH I distinguish the Minor The Apostles erred or rather were ignorant of the act of Christes Resurrection as a matter of fact I graunt the Minor as an Article of faith I deny it for it was indeed a diuine verity a true matter of fact at that tyme yet no article of faith M. WALKER Behold Gentlemen he denyeth the Resurrection to be an Article of faith M. Smiths Companion You wilfully abuse him he denyeth it not absolutly but only for that tyme because it was not then sufficiently promulgated M. WALKER Reach me the Bible I will shew the contrary in expresse words of Scripture So opening the booke he read how some of the Apostles knew not the Scriptures that he must rise from the dead how our Sauiour appeared to the eleauen Apostles and vpbrayded their incredulity and hardnes of hart because they belieued not them who had seene him after he was risen At this Syr William Harington houlding vp his handes sayd Oh I protest I neuer heard any poynt so playnely prooued M. SMITH Proued he hath proued nothing For I graunt the Apostles were slow in belieuing dull in vnderstanding the resurrection of Christ but I say it was not then an article of fayth which they were obliged expressely to belieue because it was not so clearely promulgated and proued vnto them as to bynd them vnder the payne of Heresy or note of Infidelity at that tyme to imbrace A Protestant Gentleman Say you soe Was it not expressely reuealed in Scripture sufficiently promulgated by Christ himself M. SMITH I acknowledge the reuelation of scripture the promulgation of Christ sufficient in themselues yet not in respect of the Apostles capacity for they were yet rude and weake of vnderstanding they had not as yet that inward illustration and light of the holy Ghost those outward motiues and arguments of credibility which did binde them to giue infallible assent to so deep a mystery They assented and belieued that all was true which Christ sayd all true which the Scriptures reuealed concerning his Resurrection yet they knew not whether the sense and meaning of those passages were to be taken truely or enigmatically properly or figuratiuely Of this only were they ignorant and this ignorance proceeded from their imbecillity and weakenesse and not from the insufficiency of holy Scripture The Gentleman satisfied with this M. Walker grauelled with the former answere his reasoning was at an end howbeit his brawling would haue no end for the foresayd distinction held him at such a bay as notwithstanding he bragged much of his dexterity in disputing yet with all his cunning Sophistry he could not so much as frame one argument one Syllogisme or Enthimeme against it But being in a monstrous rage because his pryde could not brooke such a fowle ouerthrowe I thought good to giue way to his chafing fit and so departed with these very wordes VVell well I perceiue my distinction hath choked your argument you are not able to proceed Now after that I arose and walked hard by the other Priest that assisted me explicating the answere that I had giuen sayd M. Smiths Companion It is not much to be meruailed that the Apostles at the first conceaued not aright the Resurrection of Christ for the Apostolicall Church was then in her infancy it was newly raysed not wholy finished begun but not perfected The Euangelicall law was deliuered yet not fully established And can this vndergoe the censure of any other doctrine then sound and orthodoxall Or could M. Walker iustly vaunt of any allegation he brought against M. Smith Then read and detest the arrogant style of an hereticall Impostor who blusheth not to print after his confusion these flourishing wordes M. WALKER M. Smith being put to silence with those proofes the other Priest to make vs this breach fled to another shift and denyed the Apostles to haue byn a Church at that tyme because the Holy Ghost was not yet come downe nor the Euangelicall law reuealed M. SMITH If you were not already returned in open Court for a willfull lyar forger false Prophet and Priest of Baal your wordes might beare some shew of credit but in so much as you are notoriously defamed for such an one I onely intreat the Reader to iudge whether I were silenced or you whether my Companion fled to another shift or defended the answere which I gaue Whether you haue not writhed his wordes to a faulty strayne of purpose to reprooue them For he denyed not the Apostles to haue byn at that tyme a Church nor that the Euangelicall law was reuealed but that it was not promulgated that the Church was not yet perfect or law cōplete For how could it be then fully cōplete when it wanted diuers guiftes and endowments necessary to the entyre complement and perfection therof When it wanted the spirituall comfort and inward Vnction of the Holy Ghost When it wanted her outward promulgation essentially required to the establishmēt of a law When it wanted the guift of tongues most requisit for the conuersion of all Nations When it wāted that vigour or strength of verity of which our Sauiour sayd Tarry in the Citty till you be endued with power from high How then M. Walker how could your conscience serue you to carpe or reprehend that saying of his strengthned and supported by such warrantable proofes To peruert and disorder the whole frame and methode of your owne disputation How could it serue you 1. To charge me with tearming the Apostles ignorance or hardnesse of hart an errour of forgetfulnesse 2. To faygne me to say that the Scriptures had not expressely reuealed how Christ should rise from the dead 3. To faygne that I intreated you to shew it me out of the Ghospell 4. That I persisted still how the Scriptures had not sufficiently reuealed it All most iniurious and hideous lyes Notwithstāding these leasinges of his or selfe-deuised fancyes he mustreth a band of three seuerall probations and graceth the last with the admiratiō or solemne acclamation of one of his Assistantes howbeit it was vsed vpon another occasion Such is euery where the iugling of that vain-glorious Sycophant yet he dischargeth me from the labour of refuting his arguments sith they are nothing else but engines raysed to batter the forts of his owne conceits which neuertheles he suffereth not to fall to the ground without the sound of his fellowes applause praysing himselfe for ouercomming himselfe in such a skirmish in which he is both the assayler and the assayled he the Maister and he the maystered idely conquering and basely conquered both at once Moreouer he reprooueth me for making a strange
themselues are infallible for as long as any of these closely adhere to the word of God are guided by his doctrine and follow his direction so long they cannot erre And what hath your Church no more priuiledge or freedome from errour then Iewes then Turkes then Diuels M. WALKER Yes because Iewes and Turkes adhere not to the word of God they follow not the truth we doe M. SMITH Doe you because you say you doe Will not they say the same haue as good warrant as you But how shall we know you follow the truth what proofs alleage you To chaleng it thus without proofes seeing it is the matter controuerted between vs is Petere principium that is miserably to begge the argument we handle or to giue that for a reason which is only in question both most ridiculous and hissed out of all schooles Therfore M. Walker was so wary as to conceale in his SuÌ„me this inference of mine and the foolish reply or desperate Non-plus of his Moreouer to say your Church cannot erre as it cleaueth close to Gods Word speaketh and teacheth according to it or as long as it swarueth not from thence is nothing els theÌ„ to auouch though in other wordes that it cannot erre as it cleaueth to truth speaketh and teacheth according to truth or that it cannot erre as long as it erreth not which is as idle as the former was foolish because to adhere to Gods word is to adhere to the truth to swarue from thence is to runne into errour So that this answere is nothing to the purpose no way able to satisfie my demand for by asking of you Whether your Church may erre or no I demaund whether it be so assisted by God and guided by his holy spirit as it must needs cleaue to his word it cannot depart from it in deliuering any point of faith What answere you to this is your Church thus inerrable or no M. WALKER I haue told you alreadie how it may erre and how it may not M. SMITH And I haue refuted what you sayed If you haue nothing els to answere to my Interrogatories answere me a little to a Syllogisme or two I shall propose by which I meane to proue euen by this which you haue graunted that the Protestants Church of England is not the true Church of IESVS Christ. And thus I frame my argument That Church which hath not the word of God trulie preached and infallibly deliuered is not the true Church of IESVS Christ. But the Protestant Church of England hath not the word of God trulie preached and infallibly deliuered Therfore it is not the true Church of IESVS Christ. M. WALKER I denie the Minor M. SMITH I proue the Minor The word of God preached in the Church of England is corrupted with errours and the men that deliuer it are subiect to errours Therfore the Church of England hath not the word of God truly preached and infallibly deliuered M. WALKER I deny the Antecedent M. SMITH The Antecedent hath two parts the first of them I declare by induction Malachy 2. v. 7. where all true copies haue The lippes of the Priest shall keepe knowledge and the law they shalâ— require of his mouth you corruptly reade The lippes of the Priest should keepe knowledge and they should require the law of his mouth contrary to the Hebrew text which insteed of shall keepe hath Iismâ—ru insteed of shall seeke Iebakkesu contrary to the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contrary the Latine which is custodient and requirent all being of the Future tense and Indicatiue moode which you haue changed into the Preterimperfectense of the Optatiue or Subiunctiue moode altering therin both moode and tense of set purpose to gainsay the infallibility of Christs visible pastours who lawfully succeed in the Apostles roome and to patronage an errour or rather Heresy of your owne That the Priests Prelats of Gods Church may erre in doctrine and so the people not bound to require the law at their mouthes M. WALKER We haue not corrupted the Hebrew text for the true meaning of the Holy Ghost is perfectly deliuered by our Translation M. SMITH But answere me directly Are not the Hebrew Greeke and Latin wordes all in the future Tense Do they not all import shall keepe and shall require And haue not you altered both the tense and moode Is it not so what say you M. WALKER Though the wordes be in the future tense yet wee haue kept the true sense because the future tense in Hebrew by reason of vau conuersiuum may sometime stand for the preterimperfect tense of the Optatiue Potentiall oâ— Subiunctiue moode as our translation hath therfore it is noâ— different nor irregular from the Hebrew which is the Originall M. SMITH But this is a meere collusion for heere is no Vau conuersiuum in that place nor can there be as all that are cunninge in the Hebrew can tell so that this shift will not serue your turne nor that other of keeping the sense For I accuse you of corrupting the text But to alter the tense to alter the moode to alter the word of the Holy Ghost is to corrupt the text to change the diuine characters written by the finger of God Therfore your Translation is guilty of this change and corruption Otherwise if adulterers of Scripture may iudge of the sense where shall you find any adulteration what Heretike can be conuinced of corruptioÌ„ For aske the Arians aske the Valentinians aske Marcion who for paring or gnawing away many places of Gods word was called Mus-Ponticus the mouse of Pontus aske any of these Corrupters they will all answere they keep the sense bring as sound arguments as you do for the maintenance therof for such is your proofe M. WALKER It was â—euer the purpose of Gods spirit in that place or by these wordes to teach that the law should awayes be taught truly and infallibly by the Priests and Pastours who succeâ—d Moyses or the Apostles locally in the church by a continued succession M. SMITH Heere againe you fall to Petere principium for we proue it was his purpose because his wordes enforce it And haue you no other meanes to disproue it then by denying it was his purpose because he did neuer purpose it And why did he neuer purpose it Because is not agreable to the purpose of your Hereticall phrensie Though it be consonaÌ„t agreable to Gods sacred doctrine vttered vnfolded in diuers other places as when he sayeth that his spirit his wordes shal not depart out of the mouth of his Prophets and their seede and seeds seede for euer That he who heareth the Pastours of the Church heareth him That if any controuersy arise amongst inferiours they shall come to the Priests of the Leuiticall stocke and do whatsoeuer they shall teach according to the law It is consonant to these texts and sundry the like to which
A TRVE REPORT OF THE Priuate Colloquy betweene M. Smith aliâs Norrice and M. VValker Held in the presence of two VVorthy Knights and of a few other Gentlemen some Catholikes some Protestants With a briefe Confutation of the false and adulterated summe which M. Walker Pastour of S. Iohn Euangelist in Watling-streete hath diuulged of the same Permissu Superiorum M. DC XXIIII TO THE READER IT IS no Nouelty lately practised by the Protestāts of our age it hath alwaies beene the vsual trade and inueterate guile of Heretikes in former tymes to corrupt falsifie and depraue not onlie the Bookes and Writings but the wordes sayings and other Conferences they haue held with the professours of the Catholike Church Origen complayneth how his bookes were thus abused by the enemies of God and Sowers of Cockle euen in his owne dayes S. Augustine writeth that the Donatists being conuicted of falshood in a Collation he had with them did after maliciously calumniate and traduce the sentence giuen against them as falslie pronounced The Arians Pelagians and other auncient Sectaries were attainted of the like crime And now our Puritans and Protestants are proued guiltie of the same or far more treacherous dealing by which they labour to vnderproppe the rotten beames of their ruinous vnconstant declining doctrine 2. Of this fraud and deceite Hunnius Hail-bronner and their companions were guiltie who being vāquished in the meeting at Ratisbone diuulged notwithstanding many false reports of their triumph and victorie Of this was M. Iewell guilty as D. Harding in manie of his writings M. VValsingham in his Search haue euidētly discouered Guilty was M. Reynolds in publishing his Conference with M. Hart wherein he forged diuers things to the credit of his owne and disaduantage of his Opponents cause of which he neuer so much as dreamed Therefore S. Gregorie trulie auerreth of these and such like heretikes that by their labours and disquisitions they endeauour not so much to attayne the truth as to seeme victorious they more eagerlie thirst after the applause of men then the glory of God they seeke such things as apertayne to themselues not such as belong to Iesus Christ. 3. In which kind most notable now of late and most fresh in memorie is the pride and arrogancie of D. Featly who impudentlie boasted of his supposed Conquest in a meeting which he D. VVhite had with M. Fisher and M. Sweete from which neuerthelesse he cowardlie fled wholie discomfited and blotted with the ignomonie of a desperate Retraite No lesse shamefull though in a conflict lesse famous is the vanitie of M. VValker in bragging of the Conference betweene him and M. Smith which himself hath set forth stuffed with such a heapeof false and guilefull relations as he may seeme according to the Prophet to haue made lying to be protected Nothing trembling at that dreadfull sentēce which is prophesied of him Thou O Lord hatest all that work iniquity thou wilt destroy them all that tell a lye Howbeit not one but so manie lies hath he diuulged as I may say with Ieremie he hath bent his tongue or prepared his quill as a bowe of lying and not of truth c. His tongue is a wandering arrow it hath spoken guile For in relating the arguments and answers which passed on both sides some he changeth some he corrupteth heere he leaueth out there he foisteth in one while he disioynteth the wordes otherwhile he dismembreth peruerteth the sense in fine he maketh such a misshapen and confused Chaos of malicious slaunders of foolish impertinent additions as may well become one of his owne deformed and bastardly brood which the iudicious Reader may playnlie perceaue by the true narration I shall heer deliuer without inserting any more then shall be necessarie for the iust reproofe of the aduersaries forgeries or redargution of other speaches purposelie omitted and suppressed by him 4. Yet meruaile not I haue so long delayed this obligation I had to cleere my self satisfie the interest Iowe to truth For the first Copie of my answere fullie perfected and addressed to the presse though in a forrayne Countrie because the tyme permitteth not any such commoditie at home was as it often happeneth intercepted by the way and the interception concealed from my knowledge for the space of six whole weekes So powerfull is the aduerse faction in bearing vs downe and openlie disgracing vs with their calumnious libels and so vigilant and watchfull in stopping all possible meanes we should take to manifest our innocencie But such violent oppression cannot still continue the Widowes teares the Orphans cryes will at length be heard and Christs afflicted flocke our silenced pennes may find a tyme to lay open our sinceritie and the wrong which is done vs by their false criminations A TRVE REPORT OF THE Priuate Colloquy betweene M. Smith aliâs Norrice M. VValker M. SMITH aliâs NORRICE So M. Walker stileth me FIRST then it is false that I chalenged any Minister to dispute I onlie yelded for the satisfaction of Syr William Harington to giue a meeting to any whom he should bringe Secondly it is false that I was assisted by any more Priests then onlie one by any more Catholikes then foure I for solemnelie conditioned at the beginning that there should be no more then fiue or six persons at the most on a side to the end the Conference might be verie secret and priuate without concourse of people or noyse abroad for feare of affoarding disgust vnto the State in that our quiet tyme of peace and conniuencie Which conditions I punctuallie obserued though the Aduersarie was so bold as to violate and infring them both by bringing more then the appointed number as by publishing also the whole discourse to the open view and sight of the Realme yet so fraudulentlie so corruptlie as forceth me to this right and vnfaygned replie Then although it be true that I intreated the disputation might be performed sweetlie and with all mildnes without bitter wordes or reproachfull taunts yet M. Walker made no such answere as he hath forged in his Pamphlet True also it is that I excepted against the vnmannerlie tearmes of calling our Church Whore of Babylon the Pope Antichrist desired no such odious Epithetes might be vsed now especially whē it pleased the Kings Maiesty to send to his Holines for a dispensation for the mariage of our Noble Prince Yet I sayd not that his Maiestie sued to his Holines or gaue the Pope that honour The awe of reuerence I bore to so mightie a Monarch did temper my tongue from vsing any such wordes as seemed to carry the least shew of distast At length that we might proceed more solidelie and not floate vp and downe vpon vncertaynties I desired we might both agree in some generall positiōs or irreuocable Tenents as grounds of our ensuing dispute Wherevpon being to proue That the Protestants Church is not the true
Church of Iesus Christ nor That it hath his true faith I demanded of M. Walker whether the true Church be alwayes visible or no M. WALKER The true Catholike Church is not visible because it comprehendeth the whole companie of the elect of which the greatest part being Saynts in heauen are without the â—each of mans eye and cannot be seene M. SMITH My question is not of the Church Triumphant in heauen but of the true Catholike Church Militant vpon earth M. WALKER But thus your wordes and question cohere not togeather for it is as absurd to say that the Catholike Church is militant on earth as it is absurd to affirme that all mankind euen the vniuersall race of Adam are now liuing M. SMITH Was S. Cyprian then absurd who called the militant Church vnited and conioyned in the vnion and linke of Priests adhering togeather The one Catholike Church To communicate with Cornelius the head only of the militant was to communicate with the Catholike Church Was S. Augustine absurd who tearmeth the militant Church whose communication we must hold The Catholike Church The militaÌ„t Church dispersed ouer the face of the earth The Catholik Church The militant Church in which alone one baptisme may be wholesomelie obtayned The one incorrupt Catholike Church The militant Church in which by imposition of handes the holy Ghost is giuen The only Catholike Church The Church in which good and euill be as chaffe and corne The Catholike Church The Church in which the sacrifice of bread and wine in faith and charity ceaseth not to be offered throughout the vniuersal world The holie Catholike Church But to presse you no further with the testimonies of men was the Sonne of God absurd when he sayd Other sheepâ— I haue that are not of this fold theÌ„ also I must bring they shall heare my voyce there shal be made one fold one Pastour Who were these other sheep but either Predestinate or many of them at least To what Fold were they brought Without doubt to Christs visible to Christs militaÌ„t to Christs Cath. Church for to no other would he bring them no other is his fold no other his one and that singular one of which he is chiefe and supreme Pastour Therfore not your inuisible but the visible and militant is the true Catholike Church of IESVS Christ Neyther are the Predestinate as you pretend before they be called meÌ„bers of his Church because this is the oracle of Truth They are not of my fold So much by the way for this Now that you may cease your wrangling and stick no longer in ambiguity of tearmes I tell you once agayne that I speake not of your Catholike and Inuisible but of that militant Church which we are bound to obey and heare that of whose Communion we ought to be that of which Christ sayd diâ— Ecclesiae Tell the Church What hold you of this Iâ— this Church visible or no M. WALKER I distinguish That Church may be two wayes considered either in regard of her outward men outward duties of Christianitie outward preaching of the Word and administration of the sacraments and so it is visible Or in respect of the inward election inward faith and spirituall graces and so it is inuisible A Catholike Gentleman Reserue your distinctions vntill you neede them and now answere directly to the Question M. SMITH Aske me any question and try whether I will vse any such tergiuersation What is your Conscience so horride or cause so bad as you dare neuer giue a direct answere M. WALKER I answere as I belieue M. SMITH And doe you not belieue what your owne men teach concerning this poynt Doe they not teach that the Church which we ought to heare is visible Or may we heare an inuisible Doth not D. Whitaker define it by these markes to wit by the true preaching oâ— the word and the true administration of the Sacraments And although he addeth that the whole Essence of the Church consisteth in them yet he sayth that these markes signifie and denote a visible Church Now doe not you belieue as he doth Or are you afrayd to confesse that Church to be visible which he confesseth Man consisteth of an inuisible essence yet is a visible man so the Church may haue some inuisible dowries yet be a visible Church M. WALKER You wronge D. Whitaker He neuer taught that the whole Essence of the Church consisted in the true peaching of the word and administration of Sacraments M. SMITH I wrong him not He teacheth writeth and diuulgeth it in print though you wrong both your self and vs in making these digressions and picking euery occasion to run from the matter M. WALKER Dare you stand to this that M. Whitaker writeth it I haue bâ—th read him and studied him I am sure he hath no such matter M. SMITH His bookes are extant you studied theÌ„ sleightly or vnderstood them not I am sure he hath it M. WALKER Because I will not spend tyme in contesting with you let this be the issue before these Gentlemen let vs send for D. Whitakers workes and if I doe not shew that he doth proue against Bellarmine that the Catholike Church iâ— inuisible that this is a mayne poinâ— large lie disputed by him and a mayne controuersie betweene him and Bellarmine let me branded with the marke of a wilfull liar M. SMITH Will you still fly to the ambush of your hidden Church Shall I neuer bring you into the open field Haue I not sufficiently inculcated vnto you that my question is of the Church now militant on earth of that Church which we ought to heare and obey of that which M. Whitaker describeth by the marks before mentioned of that which your selfe distinguished to be partly visible partly inuisible And run you now back againe to your counterfait Catholike and wholy inuisible Church Are you so sodainly distracted of your wiâ—s as not only to forget what I had sayd but what your selfe had written immediatly before Yet perhaps I may mistake It proceeded not so much from the giddines of your braine as from the guiltines of your coÌ„science which mistrusting the vaine vnaduised chalenge you made would now like a cunning Cheater by foysting in these words guilefullie diuert it to a quite coÌ„trary purpose For I neuer denied that M. Whitaker forgeth an inuisible Catholique Church but I so often canuased you froÌ„ straying thither as coÌ„mon sense might haue taught you to keep on your way staÌ„d to your tackling in mantaining the quarrell or saucie exception you tooke against me for saying that M. Whitaker placed the whole essence of the Church in the true preaching of the Word and true administration of the Sacraments This was that which then I sayd Against which you contested as before your words to deliuer the contestation truly as it was I must in part repeate againe leauing out that counterfait passage which you
your translation being dissonant it must needes be not only a corruption of the text but a deprauation also of the sense of the Holy Ghost M. WALKER That cannot be the sense because the Priests vnto whome the Prophet speaketh there in the 2. of Malachy were Leuites and succeded Aaron in the Priesthood and yet they were departed out of the way they caused many to fall in the law by their corrupt glosse and their abuse of the couenant of Leui c. Yea some of them had sacrificed to Idols as Iosephus sheweth in his history M. SMITH As though it were necessary for al Priests that haue lawfull calling to be free from errour or such as are fensed from erring in fayth should neuer be able to stumble in their liues It is inough for the infalibility of Christs Spouse that the high Priest and his Consistory that the head of the Church her generall Councels be inerrable It is inough that God doth preserue his truth in the mouthes of vicious and wicked men as in the mouthes of Scribes and Pharisies when they sate on Moyses his Chaire as the guift of prophesie in Ciaphas of whom S. Iohn recordeth that he prophesied because he was high Priest of that yeare Seest thou sayth S. Chrysostome how great the power of Poâ—tâ—sic â—ll authority is Grâ—ce 〈◊〉 touched the mouth but not the â—ewd and villanous â—art And S. 〈◊〉 of naughty pastours auoucheth Will they nill they c. they shall speake the wordes of God by reason of the promise which heere and els where he hath made them M. WALKER God did not make heâ—re a promise but gaue a commandement teaching what the Priests and people should do and ought to do like that Thou shalt haue no other Gods but me M. SMITH In respect of the people I grant it is a Commandement of God that they ought to learne and require the law from the mouthes of the Priests And I wonder how you presume to infring this coÌ„maundement by sending them from their publick voices to your secret spirits or hidden perswasions Then by your owne coÌ„fession because it is the coÌ„maundement and Precept of God which the people as you write ought to obey it must needes follow that his Priests haue his infallible promise and assurance of truth otherwise the people could not with security repayre vnto them otherwise they might erre and be deluded by them in matters of fayth they might be frustrated of their hope forfeite their saluation euen by following the expresse will and commaundement of God which without open blaspheâ—y cannot be auerred The same is manifestly declared by the reason the Holy Ghost assigneth why the lippes of the Priest shall keepe knowledge because he is the Angell of the Lord of Hostes Hâ— is called saith S. Cyrill the Angell of the Lord of Hostes because he deliuereth vnto meÌ„ the Oracles ofâ—iod â—dding nothing withdrawing nothing but eâ—en the same â—e recâ—iued of God S. Chrysostome The Priest is the Angell of our Lord he speaketh nothing of him selfe if thou despise thâ—u despisest not him but God Moreouer if this were only a commaundemeÌ„t giuen to Priests by way of direction what they should do why did not your Translation expresse it according to the Hebrew in the future teÌ„se as they did other Commaundements Thou shalt haue no other Gods but me Thou shalt not steâ—le Thou shalt not commit adultery c Surely their conscience gaue them that something more was heere coÌ„prized or els they would neuer haue altered the moode and tense they would neuer haue bin more affrayde of translating this commaundement truly agreable to the Originall then they were of others This chaÌ„ge this alteration pleadeth them guilty for let the sense be what it will though I haue euidently demonstrated it to be as we teach Either the Holy Ghost knew better then Protestants what tense he should vse to expresse that sense or they better then he Did they know better O how detestable is their blasphemy in ascribing more knowledge to men theÌ„ to God! Did he know better O how diuclâ—â—sh was their arrogancy in presuming to alter the Tense oracled by the Holy Ghost which he knew to be best knew to be most fit for the explication of his meaning This is such a horned argument or vnauoidable dilemma as neither M. Walker nor any other Minister is able to answere Another corruption though more cunningly conueyed is discouered in the 4. of Daniel v. 24. or 27. where the English Bible hath Breake off thy sinnes by righteousnes c. insteed of Redeeme thou thy sinnes with Almes For in the Latine it is Redime in Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Hebrew in rather in the Chaldeak it is Peruc of Perac the roote which also signifieth to Redeeme M. WALKER That translation is senseles and against all reason for God neuer appoynted that mens sinnâ—s should be redeemed M. SMITH Your proofe indeed is without sense or reason it is that idle Petitio principij of which you haue bin often accused yet for meere want of wit can neuer auoid Haue you no better stuffe to alleadge then this M. WALKER Yes if you vnderstand that Nabuchodâ—nozor â— wicked Heathen King should by his owne righteousnes redeeme himselfe from his sinnes you make Daniel a teacher of Heresie and blasphemie M. SMITH You are spitefully bent stil to wrangle or els you must needes know I vnderstand it not of his owne righteousnes For Daniell exhorteth him to frequent almesdeedes which first by way of congruity might procure Gods fauour and after deseruedly redeeme or satisfie for the punishment of his sinnes Which is a heauenly point of fayth inculcated againe by the Holy Ghost in the Prouerbs By mercy and truth iniquity is redeemed or purged as your owne Bible readeth though that which followeth in your Pamphlet be a most horrible and monstrous slaunder that Papists goe on in knowne sinne in hope of absolution by confession and pennance when we constantly teach that neither of them can auaile without detestation of sinne and full purpose of amendement To this slaunder is ioyned another of his notable leasinges reporting me to haue sayd that Peruc signifies only to redeeme wheras I confessed at the beginning that it signified to destroy redeeme breake in peeces breake asunder but neuer to cease to doe or breake off a worke as their translation runneth Syr Edward Harwood Well if the word doth import to breake in peeces and we haue to breake off then me thinkes the differeÌ„ce seemes but small This was that he spake but he sayd not as M. Walker outfacingly belyeth him that M. Smith had fayled much in his prâ—ofe he was of a more mild and generous disposition theÌ„ euer to let fall any such speach M. SMITH The lesse the difference may seeme the more pernicious if it iarre as this doth froÌ„ the harmony of Fayth for the word in his natiue
seÌ„se betokneth such a breaking as hateth destroyeth quite extinguisheth the thing it crusheth or breaketh a sunder So it signifieth in those very places which M Walker alleadgeth Breake off the golden earâ—ngs c. to wit with abolishing with destroying them to that changing them to another vse And much more in Genesis where it is not as he most fraudulently corrupteth it Thou shalt breake off his yoke c. but as the Protestant TranslatioÌ„ readeth Thou shalt breake his yoke from off thy neck So that Peruâ— breake is referred to the Yoke as before to the Earings off is added by phrase of speach Likewise the very tearme of yoke declareth how he was to breake it off as a combersome and hatefull burden with dislike and detestation to be eased of the same No such manner of speach is vsuall in the place we handle and the case it selfe is far otherwise For a ma may breake off or interrupt a busines for a tyme which he liketh approoueth and meaneth after when opportunity serueth to prosecute and accomplish Therfore though your English Coppy beareth the sound of a small corruption yet the treachery is great and deprauation most viperous because it taketh away all reference to the demolition redemption and expiation of sinnes by satisfactory workes of Pennance and Almes-deedes which the true meaning of the word enforceth and the Holy Ghost therby intended To conclude if the Hebrew word had bin doubtfull as it is not then the Originalls of Greeke and Latine might haue directed you without seeking a new sense and faygned signification of your owne Syr Edward Harwood and M. Walker Not so for we haue nothing to doe with the Greeke and Latin text they are both corrupted M. SMITH And is not the Hebrew also corrupted especially of late since the addition of the pricks This was the true occasion of excepting against the Hebrew text no other was the exception no other my base estimation or reiection of it Though M. Walker hath so bad a conscience as to misreport them all and so virulent a pen as vpon his owne lying report to accuse me of vanity inconstancy malice and wickednes ioyned with wiâ—full ignorance But these are mild and modest wordes in respect of other most opprobrious speaches and spitefull tearmes which elswhere flow from the bitternes of his hart to which I now answere once for all The disciple is not aboue his Maister nor the Seruant aboue his Lord If they haue called the Good man of the howse Beelzebub how much more them of his houshold It is no dishonor for me to be reuiled with the seruants of his house if it be no ignominie for M. Walker to be one of their Reuilers Howbeit as soone as he had disgorged those vnciuil tearmes he peremptorily writeth M. WALKER It is the iudgment of all the best learned both Iewish Rabbins and Christians that the pricks vowells accents were from the beginning M. SMITH What Of all the best learned Little is your reading or great is your forgetfulnes for the best learned without exception say the contrary as not only Helias Leuita but Rabbi Dauid Kimki whome Caluin and Beza much commend and diuers other Rabbins are of the same opinion cited by Galatinus who euideÌ„tly proueth this point out of their owne writings with whome Genebrard Lindan Sixtus Senensis Arias Montanus and innumerable others accord The wordes of Arias Montanus be these The Grammarians striue about the antiquity and first inuenters of these vowels and pricks and the strife as yet remayneth in debate Some referring this thing to the tyme and industry of Esdras others to the Schoole at Tiberiades famous â—oâ— the resort and meeting of learned men Howsoeuer thiâ—â—e that is constant and certayne amongst all the inuention oâ— the vowells pricks not to be of equall standing and antiquity with the Hebrew Consonants Lo then this is constant and certayne amongst all M. WALKER But looke Deuteronomy c. 17. v. 18. and there it is plainly testifiâ—d that there was a booke of the law called Mishne which signified double because it was the law written in the double forme both with letters and pricks Another Priest M. Smiths Companion You shew your selfe very ignorant for Mishne doth not signifie in that place the Originall Scriptures nor holy Scriptures at all but the deposition or repetition of the Original and prime law conteyned in Exodus Leuiticus and Nâ—meri which are only part of the Scripture called Deuteronomium as S. Athanasius S. Augustine and Theodoretus witnes Now to say that the whole Scripture is called by the name of Mishne is as absurd as to mantayne that the whole Scripture is called Deuteronomy And out of that bare word Mishne to inferre the Scriptures to haue beene primarily writteÌ„ with pricks is most ridiculous because euen in the place you cite it is as much distinguished from the first and primary Scripture as a coppy from the original a patterne from the Prototypon and is expounded ioyned with Thorah a doubled or second Law M. WALKER You contradict youâ— selfe in affirming that Mishne signifieth the doubled law which is the Scripture and yet not the originall Scripture M. Smiths Companion No good Sir It is no more a contradiction to deny Mishne Thorah or Deuteronomy to import the Scripture indeterminately and yet to graunt it to be a part of the Scripture then to deny you to be a true Minister of Christ and yet to graunt you to be a Minister for Mickra indeed is the common word by which the Iewes expresse the Scripture M. WALKER I answere that the Scripture hath diuers names it is called Thorah Chethab Mickra and Mishne M. Smiths Companion Are not you ashamed after the labour of so many months study to write so impertinently for Thorah signifieth only part of the Scripture or Pentateuch Chethab any writing as Esther 8. v. 8. the kings letter is called Chethab as for Mishne you alledge no text or testimony to prooue that it betokeneth the Scripture But see Pagnine and you shal find that the word neuer expresseth any Scripture at all but with the word Thorah as Mishne Thorah it betokeneth a repetition or second law as Deutero 17. 18. Iosue 8. 20. But where Thorah is left out it signifieth only the second Looke Esther 10. 3. 4. Reg. 22. v. 14. ibid. c. 23. v. 4. and so M. Walker bewrayeth his little skill in Rabbins who though he flourisheth in his writing with the muster of some of theyr names and Commentaries yet he could not remember at the meeting to cite any one of their authorities M. SMITH Thus you see M. Walker how you wil be alwayes flinching from the matter though you be still beaten backe to your owne shame and confusion To returne therfore from whence we are digressed If the Greek and Latin be adulterated in the former place of Daniel the Hebrew is alike corrupted because Peruc properly