well versed in Scripture have so much honesty as not to conceale from the world that true sense of Scripture which seemeth to themselves cleare and evident after the combination and examination of all controverted texts But to be briefe and decline all comparisons which are odious let us suppose for the present which Protestants ought to take as a courtesie that learned Protestants and learned Catholicks are equally honest and equally learned both honest and both learned if the contrary be not made appeare by the ensuing demonstration 5 It is impossible for men equally learned and equally honest to have any controversie about the sense of any words of Scripture if the sense be cleare and evident But Protestants and Catholicks who are supposed to be equally learned and equally honest have controversies about the sense of such words of Scripture as concerne Transubstantiation worship of Images and other controverted points Therefore its impossible that the sense of such words of Scripture as relate to Transubstantiation c. should be cleare and manifestly against the Doctrine of Catholicks Therefore the testimony of all Protestant Churches maintaining the clearnesse against them is not onely incredible but manifestly false Because the testimony of Catholicks though in their owne defence is made evidently true by the controversie it selfe a visible and undeniable effect that can proceede from no other cause amongst learned and honest men but from the obscurity of the words and sense wherein their judgements differ If they squable about what is cleare both parties or at least one is ignorant or not honest We Catholicks have no reason to thinke that all our Doctors want knowledge and sincerity its cleare to all Christenâ—ome that in our Church we have in all parts of the world â—oth learned and honest men and if Protestants thinke â—he same of themselves they must grant that our controâ—ersies do manifestly demonstrate the obscurity of Scripture 6 Seeing Scripture is obscure and in no place cleare against Transubstantiation worship of Images Purgatory c. what ground or warrant had the first Protestants for their pretended Reformation would not all the world have reason to laugh at us Catholicks if we should part with that ancient sense of Scripture in favour of Transubstantiation Purgatory c. which we received from the Church that went before us assuring it was revealed by God upon the bare word of Luther Calvin Knox or the â—2 persons that made the Ritual and pretended to reforme in Edward the VI. time the Sacraments both in matter forme and number What signes or miracles did they shew for their extraordinary Mission and Apostleship of reforming the Doctrine of the Catholick Church If any man who received his Land by inheritance from his Ancestors ought not to part with it if not forced by better evidence then his owne how can we part with our Faith and sense of Scripture which is the ground of all our supernaturall inheritance and happinesse untill Protestants shew a better title then the inheritance or continuall succession of our Doctrines from the Apostles They must produce better evidence then their pretended clearnesse of Scripture If they laugh at Quakers notwithstanding all the texts of Scripture which they have at their fingers ends against Protestant Doctrine how do they imagine did Catholicks looke upon the first pretended Reformers One advantage these new Quakers have against all Protestants which Protestants have not against Catholicks and it is that a new Quaker may say with truth to an old or new Protestant he hath as prudent ground and as good evidence for his owne interpretation of Scripture and Religion as the Protestant hath for his their fancies the onely ground of both their Faith being much alike and their Mission being not warranted by any precedent Church This the Protestants can not object against Catholicks because we had alwayes the word and warrant of a precedent visible Church for our interpretation of Scriptures and Religion CHAP. IX VVhether any Puritanicall Congregation be the Catholick Church by reason of their pretended spirit 1 THere not a trades-man or simple woman amongst the purer sort of Protestants who do not imagine themselves to be more infallible in interpreting Scripture then the Pope and all the generall Councells together This infallibility they attribute to the Spirit of God which they all pretend to have But this fond imagination is as easily refuted as the clearnesse of Scripture hath beene in the former Chap. because every pure Protestant or Puritan pretends to have the Spirit of God but that Spirit contradicting it selfe according the diversity of Tenets which the purely inspired hold it is impossible it should be the Spirit of God who can not inspire contradictions Yet they are so obstinate that its impossible to perswade them to the contrary though you may clearly convince them The Pope must be Antichrist Catholick Kings the horns of the Beast religious Orders rags of Rome wherewith the VVhore of Babylon adornes her selfe The Puritans must onely be the Elect the Saints and pure Zealots of the beauteous discipline of Sion which to carry on though whole Nations be extirpated their holy Spirit doth not onely rid them from any remorse of conscience but assures them no worke can be more meritorious If you inquire of them how they know whether this spirit of theirs be good or bad of God or the Divel Calvin their Patriarch and Master answers that they do discerne it as clearly as they do white from black sweet from sower and light from darknesse his proofe is the experience and testimony of every one of the faithfull Brethren concerning the purenesse of his owne spirit 2 This Calvinisticall and private spirit being so hidden and undiscernable can not be a sufficient and prudent ground at least for any man that hath it not to believe it is the Spirit of Truth and of the Catholick Church Men who are not in the true Church must be led into it by some credit and exteriour signes And though Faith be a gift of God yet it is communicated by preaching and hearing Rom. 10. We do not deny that God must helpe all Catholicks interiourly with his supernaturall grace and spirit but the difference between the Puritan and Catholick spirit is that the Puritan spirit inspireth a beliefe contrary to reason the Catholick spirit inspires a beliefe non contrary but agreable to reason Though Christian Faith be above reason it is not unreasonable But it can not be agreable to reason that any person believe a Puritanicall spirit without any more proofe of the goodnesse of it then a Puritans word against a sense of Scripture which hath beene continued in the Roman Churches since the primitive times as is evident by tradition testimony of Fathers and acknowledged by the Magdeburg Centuries and other Protestant Writers Therefore the private spirit can not be a sufficient proposall of the true Faith or a credible and convincing signe of the true Church
age That is to say in every Century or age there were honest men and lawfull witnesses who testified that Henry the IV Ancestors descended from Saint Lewis though one onely age could remember or see Saint Lewis yet the next ensuing did see the first and heard their testimony the third did see the second c. In every age did live men whose testimony might be relyed upon It must be granted therefore by all that the knowledge which is grounded upon a continuall and never interrupted tradition is sufficient for lawfull witnesses 6 That the Roman Catholick Church hath a continuall and never interrupted tradition of its Faith and sense of Scripture being taught by Christ and the Apostles can not be denyed by our adversaries it being evident to the world that they who contradicted any article of this Faith we now professe in former ages were looked upon and condemned as Hereticks which is an infallible argument that we in every age received our Doctrine from the former not as the word of men but as the Word of God or as Divine Revelation for if it were not believed as Divine Revelation why should we condemne men as Hereticks because they denyed it Neither do Protestants deny that we believed our tradition and the testimony of our Church to be grounded upon Divine Revelation they onely say we were mistaken and that both our tradition and testimony of the Roman Church was fallible But then we urge that they acknowledge both were infallible in delivering to them the Scripture and testifying that it was the Word of God therefore in delivering and testifying all the rest seeing the same testimony delivering many things together must be of equall authority in all and equally believed by them who accept of it as a lawfull proofe All our pretended Reformers had no other ground in the yeare 1517. to believe Scripture as Divine Revelation but the testimony of the Roman Church Therefore they ought to believe all the rest or not to believe Scripture 7 I said it concernes also our adversaries to grant that their reformed Churches have no lawfull witnesses in matters of Faith because there can not be that sufficient knowledge which is required in a lawfull witnesse of Faith without tradition whereby it may appeare that the Faith and sense of Scripture of this age doth agree with that of the primitive Church If once our adversaries acknowledge lawfull witnesses of things past long since without a constant and never interrupted tradition every man whose spirit of ambition moves him may pretend to be true heire of any hereditary crowne or estate and without further proofe then his owne word and spirit or some obscure text of Scripture will exclude Kings and others whose rights are grounded upon tradition But if tradition be so necessary to preserve and make credible the testimony of men in matters of estates and rights in the Common-wealth it can not be superfluous to make credible the testimony of men concerning matters of Faith 8 It remaines now we prove that the testimony of the Roman Catholick Church hath beene confirmed with supernaturall signes or miracles But seeing there are in the Roman Church lawfull witnesses who prove that the Faith which they now professe is the same with that of the primitive Church miracles also are proved by the same witnesses it being granted by Protestants themselves that miracles were wrought in the primitive Church to confirme the Faith which Christ and his Apostles taught Yet in the Roman Catholick Church there are now lawfull witnesses and have beene in every age since Christs preaching that there have beene miracles done in confirmation of the Roman Faith This is evident to all who read the Ecclesiasticall Histories of present and past times Neither can our adversaries deny that we have lawfull witnesses for miracles now wrought in our Church even in confirmation of that Doctrine wherein we differ from them and reported by so credible testimonies See the 13. Chap. that it were imprudence in any person whosoever to deny them which is enough to propose sufficiently our Doctrine as Divine Revelation But Protestants do not believe our miracles because they imagine that they are against Scriptures that is against their owne interpretation of it and that some miracles have beene false and forged We do not say that all things which the common people thinke to be miracles are really true miracles but we affirme that true miracles there are in our Church and very frequent confirming that very Doctrine which Protestants reject the forgery or knavery of some particular wicked men in feigning miracles can not prejudice all especially such as are seene and experimented by persons of knowne integrity and learning able to discerne betweene true and false miracles otherwise it will follow that all the new Testament must be called in question or denyed to be Gods Word because Saint Thomas his pretended Ghospell or Nicodemus his writings are condemned as forged or Apocryphall That no reformed Church of Protestants can have lawfull witnesses to propose sufficiently their Doctrine as Divine Revelation is evident because for the space of 1500. yeares they were without any visible Church or tradition therefore their witnesses also are invisible and by consequence not lawfull or credible Fox and others made a certaine Catalogue of men who opposed the Doctrine of the Roman Church in former ages but they were known Hereticks and did neither agree amongst themselves nor with Protestants in their Tenets or Religion as hath beene demonstrated by Father Persons in his Examination of Fox his Kalendar and by many others 9 I conclude therefore that seeing Protestants grant there is and hath alwayes beene a Catholick Church upon earth and that Church must have lawfull witnesses testifying their Doctrine to be Divine Revelation it being evident that no Congregation of men can produce any such lawfull witnesses but the Roman Catholicks amongst whom I include also them of the Greeke Church who agree with us it s also evident that there can be no Church Catholick but the Roman CHAP. XI VVhether Transubstantiation and the lawfulnesse of the worship of Images be sufficiently proposed by the testimony of the Roman Catholick Church as Divine revelation and whether Protestants have any lawfull exceptions against them 1 THere are so many Bookes printed in defence of these Catholick Tenets that I judge it superfluous to treate of them ex professo I will onely answer some exceptions that Protestants have made against them to my selfe in diverse occasions That the Roman Church doth propose these articles sufficiently as Divine Revelation is cleare because it proposeth them by the same testimony and confirmed by the sames signes whereby it proposeth Scripture to be Gods Word this last proposall Protestants themselves grant to be so sufficient that no man may in prudence deny it Therefore the same must be said of all the rest and in particular of Transubstantiation and worship of Images 2 But let us
against our Doctrine Cath. So have ye against ours and by your consequence ye must not judge of it Ye are best be judged by the great Turke if ye will not admit of the Pope to be Judge of Controversies in Religion Yet it s not credible that God would have us be judged by Turkes or Jewes What thinke you Master Doctor Min. But why should the Pope or Roman Church judge us Protestants and we not judge them Cath. Your Protestant Churches are not yet come to yeares of discretion Our Church was in possession of judicature before yours was born ye must produce better evidence then we can shew before you can rationally pretend to deprive us of what we possessed these 16. hundred yeares 19 Min. I never met with a more obstinate Clowne then thou art Cath. Why do you say I am obstinate Is it because I take not the word of your English Church that is of 12. or 7. men in matters of Faith and Sacraments against the testimony of all Catholick Councells and the tradition of the whole Church Min. I wonder that thou didst not make mention of tradition before now Woe to them that prefer the traditions of men before the Word of God! Cath. I do not take Scripture as you interpret it to be the Word of God Our Preachers teach us that the Word of God must necessarily involve Gods meaning and sense But ye Protestants intrude your own fancies and dreames and make them a part of Gods Word rejecting the true sense and meaning of Scripture which the Catholick Church had learned of the Apostles and preserved from the first age of Christianity to this present Minist What a calumny is this Name but one fancy or new interpretation of ours intruded into Scripture Cath. Do not ye say that the respect we give to Images is idolatry or at least forbidden in Scripture as a thing inclining men to idolatry The Catholick Church condemned long since this fancy of yours as heresie and ye make the common people believe that we are idolaters for holding that sense of Scripture which hath been taught and practised in the Church since the beginning as learned men assure us and they say the second Councell of Nice do testifie 20 Min. Worship of Images is dangerous and therefore forbidden in Scripture Cath If that be so how did all the Church approve of it for so many ages and stick to it still notwithstanding your contradictions We have men of conscience and learning how is it possible they should damne themselves and others for worship of Images Min. I see there is no ground to be expected by discoursing with thee because when thou art pressed with Gods cleare Word thou dost recurre to the tradition and practise of the Church and to I know not what miracles Therefore I fear God hath delivered thee over to Sathan as an obstinate and reprobate Heretick Cath. Make it appear to me that your sense of Scripture is Gods meaning and then I will not contradict your Doctrine But I see no prudent ground to believe that your new interpretations contrary to the practise and tradition of the ancient Catholick Church should be dictated by God On the contrary side ye can not deny that we Catholicks have all the reason in the world to stick to our old sense of Scripture confirmed by so many miracles and testimonies of antiquity 21 Let this suffice to shew how illiterate Catholicks may convince the most learned Protestants Our cause is so good and cleare that common sense is enough to defend it and confound our greatest and most able adversaries No Catholick Clowne can be convinced by any learned Protestant if he be not more then ordinarily simple Truly there is nothing more incredible then that all the visible Churches of the world should have beene forsaken by God and in damnable errours for so many ages as Protestants pretend and that to reform the world God should pick out amongst all men the most â—icked who continued or rather encreased their abominable and scandalous conversation after they begun to preach their new Ghospell See the lives of all new Reformers in the three Conversions of England and in the prudentiall Ballance if you doubt of this assertion Is it not a meere foppery to thinke that 12. or 7. men who modeld the new Church of England in Edward the VI. time should judge better of Christian Faith matter and forme of Sacraments and of religious ceremonies then the Councells of Lateran and Trent and all the world in former ages Is it not impossible and contrary to Christs owne promises that the exercise of true Religion and Faith should be as invisible as the English Church is at this present in times wherein Christianity through the mercy of God doth flourish in all parts of the world The Catholick Church was never brought to be invisible by the Arrians though by them much persecuted Let any Catholick Clowne but reflect upon these and other things visible to all the world and he may confidently dispute and convince the most learned Protestant CHAP. XV. Of the difference between Christian Faith and the historicall beliefe of Protestants THat supernaturall Faith is a speciall gift of God is granted even by Protestants themselves The superuaturality of it consists not in believing an extravagant and improbable object because that may be done naturally For there is nothing however so false and improbable to the understanding that will not at length be believed by men if constantly reported to them by others of whom they have a good opinion and not contradicted by any whose testimony they value The Turks believe that Mahomet was a great Prophet and Saint The Jews believe that the Messias is not yet come The Puritans believe that every one of themselves is inspired with a Divine spirit c. And though every one of these stories be false improbable and also contradicted by Catholicks yet because these Sectaries have a good opinion of their owne Congregation and a very bad one of us Catholicks they believe the first reject and contemne the second Turks Jews and Puritans do not believe these fond articles of their own Religion with any supernaturall Faith their beliefe is meerly historical just as children believe the history of the Knight in the Sunne Don Quixote de la Manche c. All Christians have not supernaturall and Christian Faith Many who received it in their Baptisme loose it by heresie Hereticks are called Christians because they are baptized and not because they are endued with Christian beliefe They believe some mysteries of Christian Religion but with a meere historicall Faith They assent to the mysteries of the Trinity and Incarnation not because God revealed them but because they are pleased to judge it very probable or certain that God revealed some such thing That their owne fancy or opinion and not Gods Revelation doth move Protestants to believe what they do believe of Christian Religion is evident
both may be part of the Catholick Church Protestants as wâ— have seen in the former Chapter say that aâ—â— Christian Congregations are parts of the Catholick Church as well as we Roman Catholicks Thiâ— assertion they ground upon the signification of the worâ— Catholick which is as much to say as Vniversal In the saâ— me sense they explicate Catholick Tradition to be onelâ— that which is contradicted by any Christian Church According to this opinion no Congregation of Christian can be Hereticks because Hereticks must be obstinate against the Doctrine of the Universall or Catholick Church but no Christians can be obstinate against thâ— Doctrine of the Catholick or Universall Church seeinâ— themselves are part of it and they can not be obstinate against themselves or their owne Tenets and Doctrine therefore none can be Hereticks This absurd and hereticall sequele is a sufficient refutation of the Protestant principle and their explication of the word Catholick 2 But let us prove directly that neither all Christians nor any two Churches dissenting in their testimonies concerning whatsoever matters of Faith can be the Catholick Church My proofe is this The testimony of the Catholick Church concerning what is pretended to be revealed or not revealed by God must oblige all persons who are informed of it to believe what it saith and proposeth But if all Christians or any two Churches not agreeing in their testimonies suppose Roman Catholicks and Protestants be parts of the Catholick Church the testimony thereof can not oblige any sober person to believe what both say and propose First because one Church contradicts the other and its impossible to believe contradictions at one and the same instant Secondly when witnesses do not agree in their testimonies if they be of equall authority no man is obliged to believe either side but rather is bound in prudence to suspend his judgement Therefore if the Catholick Church be composed of all Congregations and Churches of Christians or of any two Churches not agreeing in their testimonies concerning matters of Faith no man is obliged to believe the testimony of the Catholick Church but rather to suspend his judgement and credit nothing which sequele is absurd and contrary to the Doctrine not onely of Catholicks but also of Protestants Therefore the Catholick Church must not be all Congregations of Christians or any two dissenting but one onely Congregation of persons who agree in one Faith CHAP. VII VVhether the testimony of the Catholick Church be infallible not onely as Protestants terme them in fundamentall but also in not fundamentall articles of Faith 1 THough we Catholicks say that all articles of Faith if once sufficiently proposed are in one sense fundamentall because under paine of damnation they must be believed yet in ananother sense we admit a distinction betweene fundamentall and not fundamentall articles of Faith Fundamentall articles may be called such as no ignorance of them can excuse men from damnation for not being believed Not fundamentalls may be called such articles as if proposed must be believed but if not proposed sufficiently the ignorance of them is excusable 2 But whether these articles be both called fundamentall or onely the first sort of them our controversie with Protestants is the same and the question is not set here out of its proper place because the resolution of it is necessary to answer an objection which Protestants make against the Doctrine of the former Chapter All Christians say they do agree in fundamentall points of Faith as in the Trinity Incarnation c. what great matter is it if they agree not in other things of little importance without the knowledge and sufficient proposall whereof they may be saved as Purgatory Transubstantiation c Why should we be obliged to believe things that are not absolutely necessary for salvation especially seeing Roman Catholick Divines do not deny that ignorance of not fundamentalls is not damnable Therefore all Christians though dissenting in not fundamentalls may be called Catholicks and the universall Church because they agree in all necessary articles of Catholick Religion and though their testimonies do not agree in Purgatory v.g. being an article of Faith why should their disagreement in that petty point invalid their testimony concerning the mystery of the Trinity Incarnation and other fundamentall articles 3 This discourse and objection of Protestants hath damned many a soule because they did not examine the truth of it as they ought But to declare the fallacy of it something must be said of the Churches infallibility Most Protestants do grant that the testimony of the Church is infallible in proposing the fundamentall articles of Christian Religion as in delivering Scripture to be Gods Word and in declaring the mystery of the Trinity c. because Christian and Catholick Faith must admit of no doubts concerning the truth of fundamentalls and if the Church be not infallible in proposing those to us we must necessarily doubt of their truth for though we doubt not that whatsoever God said is true yet we can not but doubt whether he revealed or meant any such thing as the mystery of the Trinity or Incarnation if we do not believe that the Church is infallible in proposing the said mystery God therefore in his Providence can not permit the Church to erre or deceive us in fundamentalls seeing its necessary for our salvation not to doubt of the truth of fundamentall mysteries but if the Church may erre in proposing them we can not but doubt of their truth This reason say Protestants can not be applyed to not fundamentalls because they are not absolutely necessary for salvation and our salvation is the onely motive that God had to make the Church infallible in proposing articles of Religion Therefore none is bound to believe that the Church is infallible in not fundamentalls 4 If the onely motive that God had to make the Catholick Church infallible were our salvation this discourse of Protestants might have some colour of truth but Gods motive in all his actions is not onely our salvation but in first place his owne honour and glory There is nothing concerns Gods honour more then that whatsoever is sufficiently proposed as revealed by him be credited by us without the least doubt whether the matter be great or of little importance Therefore the Churches infallibility and our obligation of believing it ought not to be measured by the greatnesse importance or absolute necessity of the matter proposed in order onely to our salvation but also by the sufficiency of the proposall in order to Gods honour and veracity If a matter not absolutely necessary for salvation be as sufficiently proposed to be revealed by God as the mystery of the Trinity the obligation is as great of believing the one without any doubt as the other The reason is cleare because there is as great an injury done to God by denying or doubting of his veracity and revelation in a small matter as in a great In believing
3 Another proofe that no private spirits interpretation of Scripture can be the true one being contrary to the publick testimony of the Church which went before it and Puritans pretend to reforme may be borrowed from Saint Peter who giveth to understand Pet. 1.20 that no private interpretation can be the true sense of Scripture The reason is cleare because there is none if not confirmed in grace who may not be an obstinate Heretick against the true sense of Scripture in controverted texts but no man can be obstinate against his owne private interpretation and the sense of his private spirit Therefore he can not be an Heretick if the private interpretation of Scripture against the publick testimony of the precedent or present Church which he impugneth be the true meaning and sense of Gods Word 4 Perhaps Puritans will grant that its impossible for any of them to be an Heretick seeing their spirit is infallible If this be granted it s also impossible for any other to be an Heretick or obstinate against their spirit or interpretation because he who is obstinate may be convinced and it s not possible to convince any man but by cleare reason or at least by lawfull witnesses Cleare reason Puritans can not pretend for their spirit because it s against reason to believe it Lawfull witnesses for it there can be none or no more then one which is not enough nor allowed as lawfull in a mans owne case Though every Puritan giveth not onely a testimony of his owne but also of his Brethrens spirit yet he is no lawfull witnesse for any other mans spirit because he hath no better evidence or ground for the testimony he gives then the other mans owne word in commendation of his owne spirit he neither seeth the spirit of the other nor any signe whereby it may be made credible onely he may witnesse that the man whose spirit it is sayeth it is of God but one mans word in his owne case is no sufficient evidence for a lawfull testimony Therefore there are no lawfull witnesses for the private spirit and consequently none can be obstinate against us because none can be convinced that it is of God Whence it followeth that the spirit can be no sufficient proposall of Gods Word or sense and therefore no inspired Congregation of Protestants can be the Catholick Church CHAP. X. VVhether that Congregation of persons which live in communion with and subjection to the Roman Church be the Catholick and true Church of God 1 THis question seemeth to have beene resolved by what is said in former Chapters Because iâ— there be a Catholick Church Vide summam Concâ—liorum A.F. longo in Conâ—il â—â—orâ—n 〈◊〉 〈…〉 〈…〉 and that is noâ— all Congregations of Christians taken together nor any Protestant Church in particular the dispute can onely be now between the Greek Church and the Roman but the Grecians having so many times altered their Faith so many of their ancient Patriarchs being condemned Hereticks and all their Church being legally convicted of Schisme and Heresie in three generall Councells of Florence Lions and the Lateran they can not pretend to be the true Church which never erred I do not speake of that part of the Greeke Church which communicates with us Roman Catholicks because that is part of the Roman But suppose the Roman Church were not the Catholick I see not what advantage Protestants may have by pleading for the Grecians seeing these agree not with them but are altogether against the pretended Reformation and condemne it as Heresie as appeares by the answer of the Patriarch of Constantinople to the Protestants of Germany mentioned by Bellarmine lib. 3. de Euchar cap. 21. in fine 2 To prove therefore that the Roman Church is the true Catholick it must be made appeare that it proposeth sufficiently its Doctrine of Faith as Divine Revelation this sufficient proposall can not be done by cleare and evident reason because the mysteries of Christian Religion are above humane capacity Therefore it must be done according to what hath beene said in the 4. Chap. by authority and the testimony of lawfull witnesses But lawfull witnesses in matters of Faith are onely they whose testimony hath beene confirmed by miracles as hath beene demonstrated in the 2. Chap. Therefore we must prove also miracles if we intend to prove that the Roman Church is the whole Catholick and that it proposeth sufficiently its Doctrine as Divine Revelation Now to the proofe of the assertion 3 That Doctrine is sufficiently proposed as Divine Revelation which is delivered to us as such by the testimony of lawfull witnesses confirmed by miracles But the Doctrine of the Church of Rome is delivered to us as Divine Revelation by the testimony of lawfull witnesses and their testimony is confirmed by miracles Therefore it s sufficiently proposed as Divine Revelation and by consequence the Church of Rome is the true Catholick 4 If the Minor or second proposition be proved my intent is concluded That the Roman Church hath lawfull witnesses of its Doctrine to be Divine Revelation hath this difficulty A lawfull witnesse requires not onely knowledge of what he testifieth but also honesty both qualities are necessary an honest foole being as little to be credited as a knowing knave But how can the Roman Church now extant in the 17. age of Christianity have lawfull witnesses of the Doctrine and sense of Scripture which Christ and the Apostles taught the world so long since Though honesty can not be denyed to many Roman Catholicks yet the knowledge what the Apostles taught which is required for a lawfull witnesse of the true Church can not be granted to any seeing none is now living on earth that conversed with the Apostles This argument doth equally impugne all Churches yet none can answer it but we Roman Catholicks 5 It concernes all the world even our very adversaries to grant that the Roman Catholicks have lawfull witnesses with sufficient knowledge of what Religion and sense of Scripture was taught by the Apostles in the primitive Church nay which is more that no other Church pretending to Reformation can have sufficient knowledge required for lawfull witnesses of the true Religion sense of Scripture and Doctrine of the primitive Church If the Roman Church hath not sufficient knowledge for lawfull witnesses of Christ and the Apostles Doctrine no hereditary King or Prince can have a title or right to his crowne because the right descended to them by inheritance doth depend upon a lawfull testimony averring that they are the true heires of such a man who reigned perhaps three or four hundred yeares ago Henry the IV. of France proved himselfe by lawfull witnesses to be the heire of Saint Lewis But who couldbe a lawfull witnesse that Henry the Great descended of Saint Lewis All France did give a lawfull testimony of it because it was a constant tradition in the whole Kingdome descended from Saint Lewis his time to this present