Selected quad for the lemma: sense_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
sense_n	faith_n	scripture_n	word_n	10,157	5	4.8947	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A28848	A relation of the famous conference held about religion at Paris between M. Bossuet, Bishop of London, late tutor to the Dauphin, and Monsieur Claude, minister of the reformed church at Charenton at the Countess of Royes house in the presence of several persons of the first quality at the request of Mademoiselle de Duras, daughter to the famous Marshal de Turenne, she being then upon changing her religion / translated from the French copy, as it was lately published by Monsieur Claude.; Conference avec M. Claude minstre de charenton, sur la matier̀e de l'eǵlise. English	Bossuet, Jacques Bénigne, 1627-1704.; Claude, Jean, 1619-1687.	1684 (1684)	Wing B3790; ESTC R15735	27,560	22

that a blind obedience is to be paid to the decissions of the assemblies nor that it was the sense of the Synod of Charenton As for the deputation which the synod of Sainte Foy made of four persons to go confer with those of the confession of Augsbourg and to whom it gave a full power you cannot draw from thence said he any advantage For it was with those Deputies as with Ambassadours which the King sends with full power to propose treat and conclude as Plenipotentiaries which are sent to negotiate the Peace How full soever their power be and tho' they are called Plenipotentiaries the condition is always naturally understood that they shall do nothing contrary to the true interest of their Authorizers to whom what they do must necessarily revert for to be approv'd and ratifyed without which nothing would de done that they ought to be understood that full power given by the Synod to its Deputies for the hearing of those of the confession of Augsbourg for the receiving their propositions their complaints their overtures to make the like to them reciprocally to receive from them illustrations and return the like nay and to agree with them if possible but not to be the absolute Masters of the Faith nor to receive blindly all they should have concluded For in such sort of things the cause of recourse to the Authorizers and the necessity of ratification is naturally understood To which M. Claude added this consideration that if the point in question was the true sense of an act of the Roman Church of a Canon for example of the Council of Trent M. de Condom would doubtless find it more just to receive it from him than from M. Claude because the thing in dispute was the sense of a Church whereof M. de Condom is a member and that in all probability he ought to understand it better than a man that is not so I expect then from you My Lord Bishop said he the same equity which if you 'd receive from me the sense of the Acts in dispute at least unless the sense I give 'em be contrary to that of the Doctours of my communion or evidently illusory or contrary to our other principles but if the sense I give of those acts has nothing of that methinks you have no right to reflect it nor to fancy to your self any other M. de Condom renewing the Discourse said that he would begin where M. Claude had ended because that he had said in the last place seem'd to have some justice and truth at first tho' it had nothing at all of solidity That what M. Claude said would be true if the point in issue was no more than explaining their rights and the manner or administring the Word and the Sacraments in that he should think him better informed and that he did not at all intend to hinder him from explaning it as he pleas'd the sense of those who had set up their discipline and made the acts he urg'd That he knew they denyed that they ought to submit themselves without examination to the judgment of the Church But that he pretended this absolute submission was so necessary that those very people who denyed it in speculation could not forbare establishing it in practice that thus they were fallen into a contradiction and that 't was what he pretended to prove and wherein he was not obliged to beleive M. Claude For if the thing in dispute was to show any contradiction in the sentiments of the Catholick Church he would not urge for authority it's explication nor hinder M. Claude from drawing from the terms of the Councils such conclusions as be thought fitting M. de Condom making then pawse M. Claude reply'd that since 't was certain that those who had made the acts in dispute deny'd that people should submit themselves without examination to the judgment of Ecclesiastical assemblies he had at least this advantage that by M. de Condoms own confession the explication he gave to those acts was conformable to the principles of the Protestants who had made them and that it was much more reasonable to receive it than to fancy to one's self a sense which entangled 'em in a contradiction that if the thing in dispute was any act of the Church of Rome he would make no difficulty to receive the sense which M. de Condom should give thereof conformable to the principles of that Church unless the very words of the act should oppose it in which case he might induce the contradiction and if M. de Condom was upon those terms in regard of the acts alledged it would be easy to see upon what terms he established that pretended contradiction M. de Condom said how that was no difficult matter to make out That he made it consist in regard of the discipline in that on the one side it required that the decision of the Doctrine should he made in the consistory by the Word of God that it also understood that it was performed in the provincial Synod by the Word of God as well as in the national and that on the other it requir'd that if they did not acquiesce to the decision of the consistory or to that of the provincial Synod things should remain in the same state until the national Synod where it sayes shall be performed the entire and ultimate Resolution by the Word of God to which if they do not acquiesce they shall be retrenched from the Church Which clearly show'd that the acquiescing which was required for the decision of the national was founded not upon the Word of God precisely as such for the decision of the Consistory and that of the synod of the province had been also made by the Word of God precisely as such and nevertheless the appeal was allowed of But that it was founded upon the Word of God in as much as explained and interpreted by the last judgment of the Church that is to say upon its being the last and final resolution and by consequence upon the authority of the assembly considered in it self Now this is said he a manifest contradiction to the principle which denyes the absolute submission to the judgment of the Church that this was confirmed by the discipline which did not order any Excommunication against those who do not acquiese in the decisions of the consistory and of the provincial Synod and yet ordained against those who refuse to obey those of the National The same thing said he appears by that letter-missive to the national Synod For how can we promise and sware we will submit to all that shall be resolved therein without supposing we ow to the Church an entire and absolute submission Say that we submit thereunto upon the perswasion we have that God will preside therein by his Spirit and his Word and upon this sware that is to say that upon this perswasion is founded on an express promise that God will conduct the last judgment

of his Church by his Holy Spirit after an infallible manner Nay and this said he appears in the act of the national Synod of Charenton against the Independants for the reason then and there alledged That if their principle was suffered there might be as many Religions as Parishes concluded for the absolute Obedience to the decisions of the Synods since if it was allow'd to particulars to examine the ultimate decisions not only then might be as many Religions as Parishes but as many Religions as Persons and that by consequence there would be no way to preserve the Unity of the Faith or the Unity of the Church As for what concerns the Deputies which the synod of Sainte foy nominated to go and confer with those of the confession of Augsbourg he said he did faithfully acknowledg that how full power soever the synod might have given them the intention however of the Synod was not that it should depend of them to overturn all or to put if he durst make use of that expression the Cellar in the Garret and the Garret in the Cellar that he really beleived that the synod meant that what they effected should return to them and that in such sort of things a Ratification is allwayes necessary But that it was a very amazing thing and to which M. Claude had not made any answer that this synod had offered to insert in the Confession of the Faith what the Deputies concluded with the Lutherans For this is making a doubt of the confession of their faith of which we were however told that it contain'd nought else than the pure Word of God wherein nothing was to be changed D' ye think said he one can change the articles of your confession of Faith M. de Condom having ceased speaking M. Claude said that he would answer to all the points of that discourse and desired him to afford him a peaceable audience Whereunto in the first place he said that M. de Condom does misapprehend the Article of the Disciplines which bears that in case they do not acquiesce in the decision of the consistory nor in that of the provincial synod things shall remain in the same state untill the National where shall be taken the last and final resolution from the Word of God to which those who shall not acquiesce shall be retrenched from the Church For it is not said if either that the Decisions of the consistory and of the provincial synod ought not to be made by the Word of God in like manner with those of the National or that this Word has not an equal authority whether that it be declared either by the consistory or by the synod of the Province or by the national synod or that it be precisely to it alone in as much as such that we ow an entire obedience But this order added he was established for two reasons very different from that which you have pretended the one is that therein appearance that the examination of the Word of God upon the point of question shall be made in the consistory with less exactness and light than in a synod composed of all the Ministers of a province nay and with less light and exactness in a provincial then in a national synod which is commonly sound to be composed of all the most sagacious and most able persons in a Kingdom The other Reason is That People may have prepossessions against a Consistory which shall hinder 'em from listening to it with all due docility whereas it will not be so in regard of a Provincial Synod which will be look'd upon as less interessed and more empty of Passions and personal Prepossessions and by Consequence they will hearken to it more peaceably In short those sort of Personal Passions and Interests having still much less room in a National Synod composed of Persons far distant who assemble from all parts of the Kingdom in all probability People will not entertain any prejudice against them and by consequence will receive the Word of God from their mouth with more docility and listen to 'em in a better disposition He said then that this order had been taken for the avoiding as much as possible two inconveniences the one That the final Decision might not be made lightly inconsiderately out of passion and a humane Interest The other That the prepossessions against the persons might not be an Obstacle in the Parties to give Ear to and receive the Word of God with Obedience and Submission of Faith which is owing it But that from thence it could not be concluded that in the sense of the Discipline it was not alwayes according to the Word of God in as much as such and not to the authority of the Assembly that the Obedience ought to be rendred That as to the Rest the Decision of the National was called Ultimate and Final because that in the humane Order and in the present state of things there was no going further As for the Letter-missive to the National Synods he made answer That it did no more Conclude the absolute Submission that the Act of the Discipline since that the Condition of Judging according to the Word of God was therein expressed by these Terms Being persuaded as we are that God will Preside therein by his Spirit and his Word As to the reason alledged by the Synod of Charenton against the Independants he said That it did not suppose a blind Obedience That the Dependance which particular Churches have of Coloquies and Synods is an Exteriour Order which tho' it does not contain an Exteriour and infallible Means to preserve the Church in the Unity of the Faith does not fail nevertheless to be of very great use for that very purpose and that it is ever to be presumed that the Blessing of God will accompany it since it is an Order which he himself has Established That the Independants who reject this Order deprive themselves of this means and expose themselves willingly to that inconvenience of having as many Religions as Parishes insomuch that the Synod had reason to make them this Reproach That there is no saying of the same thing of the Principle of the Protestants which by rejecting the Blind Obedience and absolute Submission does nevertheless preserve the outward means useful and proper for the maintaining the Unity of the Faith And as to what M. de Condom has said That without the absolute Obedience there might happen to be as many Religions as Parishes he owns it might so happen humanly speaking notwithstanding the practice of the order and Ecclesiastical Assemblies for humane Wit is of it self subject to an infinite number of Errors But that this cannot happen if a regard be had to God who Blessing the outward order and communicating to his truly Faithful and Elect one and the same Spirit maintains them by that means certain and infallible in the Unity of one and the same Faith and by consequence in that of one and

the same Church That the Faith being a thing not humane but Divine there is but one God alone who can produce it or who can preserve it in the hearts of men And this is also what he infallibly does in the hearts of his Elect by his Spirit and by the outward means of the Ministry which he himself has established for Paul plants and Apollo waters but God only gives the Increase Then he proceeded to the Deputies which the Synod of Sainte Foy nominated to go to the Lutherans and said that he very agreeably received the Confession which M. de Condom had newly made That they meant not to give them the power of putting the Cellar in the Garret and the Garret in the Cellar as he had expressed himself after a very ingenious manner and that a Return was required to the Authorizers and a Ratification That he thanked him very heartily for this downright Confession which in this respect decided the Question so as he could no longer make use of that Act for the blind obedience which he pretended That as to the rest his accusation against that Synod for having undertook to change the Confession of the Faith was null in the sense which M. de Condom understood it For that we ought to distinguish in the Confession what is Essential from what is not so That the Essential consists in those very things which are called Articles or Points of Faith and what is not so consists in the terms and in the manners of expression That the Synod might well have consented to a change of the expressions of the Confession nay and to the inserting therein of illustrations or explications if it was found useful for the bringing back Spirits that were gone astray but that it never pretended that any thing should be changed in the essential of that confession which in this regard remains immutable for as much as it is Conformable to the Word of God M. Claude having made an end M. de Condom replyed first of all that what M. Claude had newly said touching the order set down by the Discipline did hot hinder but that the Discipline did order that those who should not acquiesce in the National Synod should be retrenched that they did in effect retrench the Arminians in the Synod of Dordrect and he asked M. Claude if he did not think that retrenchment just and legitimate M. Claude having made answer that he thought that what the Synod of Dordrect had done was very just M. de Condom said that the Church of Rome demanded nothing more that it acknowledged it self obliged to judge according to the Word of God and that was not in question but the point in issue was only the sense and explication of that Word and that it belonged to the Church to give that explication to particular persons to acquiesce therein and when in case they did not do it the Church did justly excommunicate And thus it was that the Protestants had been excommunicated in the Council of Trent Upon the Letter-missive to National Synods is it not said he a manifest illusion to swear that they will submit themselves thereunto supposed or upon condition that what shall be decided therein shall be conformable to the Word of God there 's nothing serious in that What say you Sir to this M. Claude said there was no illusion therein and how he saw nothing but what was regular If I comprehend your Doctrine aright replyed M. de Condom you believe a private person may doubt of the judgment of the Church even when it pronounces in its highest Tribunal We beleive said M. Claude that there 's no certainty of faith that an Ecclesiastical Assembly shall judge rightly and in that respect one may doubt thereof But that nevertheless one ought ever to presume well of an Assembly and in that respect a body ought not to say he doubts it but must say he hopes nay and beleives it wil● judge well For Jesus Christ has promis'd that all those who seek shall find Mat. 7. and that it is to be presumed they will do their duty in seeking well untill the Contrary appears Wherefore this is an assurance of Charity and of Equity which excludes doubt in some sense But when people see Cabals Factions and humane interests to swarm and reign in Assemblies then the truth is they may with reason doubt for we see persons who stray from their Duty and by consequence are not in a state of hoping any thing from the blessing of God I beseech you Sir said then M. de Condom let us lay aside what is only good to cast dust into the eyes What you have newly started of Cabals Factions and Interests is impertinent and serves only to puzzle I ask you suppose there appears in an assembly neither Factions Cabals nor Interests and that all its proceedings were just and regular ought their decisions to be received without examination No Sir said M. Claude I had then reason said he to say that all you have urg'd of Factions and Cabals is impertinent Your conclusion's not just reply'd M. Claude for tho' there 's nothing which staggers the presumption which people have that this assembly will do its Duty and according to all appearances things will be orderly therein this is however but a humane presumption which offers no certainty of Faith and by consequence does not hinder examination But when disorder and corruption are seen to reign therein the presumption is still no longer in favour of such an Assembly and instead of entertaining good hopes of it all is to be feared Thus it is not without reason that I have spoke of Cabals and of Faction There M. de Condom taking again in hand the thread of his discourse said it was not true that the Independants did absolutely reject all sorts of Ecclesiastical Assemblies for they held one said he at London in the Year 1653. so as the Synod of Charenton could not condemn them for that but only because they would not acknowledge there was owing a Dependance and an absolute submission to the Synods As for the Synod of Sainte Foy added he if the question had been only to make illustrations and explications as M. Claude call'd it what necessity was there of inserting them in the Confession of the Faith might it not have been done by an Act of Synod without chewing the confession Wherefore its certain their design was to express the Article of Faith touching the Lords Supper in ambiguous terms whereof both partyes had agreed and which each might wrrest to his advantage a thing which had been attempted several times but had not succeeded Now this had been in effect not meerly giving illustrations and explications nor even establishing a Mutual Toleration but changing the Confession of the Faith After that added he every one may guess what he ought to beleive of a Confession of Faith which a whole National Synod was willing to change That as for the

answer you shall make me I shall make you you may take what course you please but I 'le be sure to answer you directly to your reasoning now the child must be distinguish'd in three times before his father has shew'd him the Bible and told him that this Book is Divine after his Father has told him so without his having yet read it himself after he has read it himself At the first time which is that wherein you consider him in your argument there 's no saying he doubts or does not doubt for neither the one nor the other is true in the sense you understand it Not to doubt of a thing signifies to be assured of it Now before a body can say either that one doubts or is assured of the Quality of a thing one must know the thing it self I do not doubt nor am I assured that such a person is the King of Spain until first I have had some knowledg of the Person Wherefore your argument is not just either the child doubts or does not doubt of the divinity of the Scripture there 's a Medium namely which is called an ignorance of pure negation He knows not yet what Scripture is never having heard talk of it To doubt or not to doubt of the divinity of the Scripture a man must have some knowledg of it and frame to himself some idea at least of it But the child does not frame to it any idea of a Book whereof he never heard any mention in the second time when his Father has shewed him the Bible and told him this Book is is the word of God yet without his having yet read it himself He beleives it the Word of God He beleives it the Word of God not of Divine Faith but of Humane Faith because his Father told him so which is a state of Catechumene In the third time when he has read himself this Book and perceives the Efficaciousness of it he believes it the Word of God no longer by Humane Faith because his Father has told him so but by Divine Faith because he himself has immediately perceived the Divinity of it and it is the state of the faithful M. de Condom fastned upon this word Catechumene and said that the child was a Christian was baptized and was in the Allyance of God M. Claude made answer that by the word Catechumene he meant only the child baptized in the state he received the first instructions M. de Condom repeated again much the same things he had said still affirming 't was by the authority of the Church that the child received the Scriptures as Divine and after having received them from the Church as Divine he received also from the Church their sense and interpretation Tell me I beseech your Lordship said then M. Claude When a Child learns the first time there is a Catholick Church is it simply a general Idea which only consists in knowing there is a Catholick Church without knowing where it is or what it is Or does it determine that Church whose Assemblies it sees For if it be the first it is a principle of Faith very insignificant very useless which you establish I know there is a Catholick Church to whose authority People ought to submit themselves but I know not where it is or what it is this would be a strange principle of Faith True said M. de Condom the Child determines this Idea to that Church particularly whose Assemblies it sees or assists at it self and beleives it to be the Catholick Church and not simply there is one Let us then suppose said M. Claude a child born in a Heretick or Schismatick Church in the Ethiopian Church for example the first principle of Faith this child will entertain will be that of the Ethiopian Church as being the Catholick It will be from it and according to its authority that he will receive the Scripture as Divine from it 't will be he 'll receive the sence explication of that Scripture and he can never believe he has a right to examine the Decisions of his Ethiopian Church for fear of falling into the inconvenience of imagining he may better understand the sense of the Scripture he a meer particular person than the whole Body of the Church Tell me My Lord Whether by this principle the child will not always remain in that Heretical and Schismatical Church Tell me by what way you pretend to free him out of it Certain then it is your Principle is equally proper to maintain the Jew in Judaisme the Pagan in Paganism the Hereticke in Heresy as the Orthodox in the true Church M. de Condom replied to this that one was to distinguish in the persuasion of the Ethiopian child what came from the Holy Ghost from what came by humane prepossession that 't was the Holy Ghost which dictated to him in general there was a Catholick Church in what place soever it was but that this Catholick Church was that where he was born this came from humane prepossession That in truth he received the Scripture from the hand of that Church and did not believe it divine but by its authority but afterwards by reading the Scripture the Holy Spirit produced in him doubts against the Church of his Birth and from that means freed him from the Heresy and the Schism wherein he was engaged M. Claude made answer that either M. de Condom must renounce his principle or own the impossibility of what he urg'd For since this Ethiopian in dispute cannot nor ought not to understand the Scripture but in the sense of the Church by the authority of which he beleives it divine and from whose hand he receives it's interpretation it is impossible that by reading the Scripture there should arise any doubts in his mind contrary to the truth of his Church for he only explains that Scripture conformably to the sense of that Church But if on the contrary you mean this man should explain of himself the Scripture and takes it ●n an other sense than his Church does you make him said he renounce your princiciple for which you have hitherto combated and you not only make him renounce it but you establish that it is the Holy Spirit himself which makes him renounce it and all the inconveniences which you have so exaggerated vanish into smoak he added that what M. de Condom had just said justified the proceedings of the Protestants in respect of the Roman Church for tho' it were it which we ought to have beleived from our birth to have been the Catholick Church tho' it were by it and its authority that we should have received the Scripture as divine we cannot be blamed for having distinguish'd in that Beleif what was of the Holy Spirit from what proceeded from humane prepossession We cannot be blamed for having in reading the Scripture received doubts contrary to the truth of that Church and for having freed our selves by that means from out

shunning pride and presumption make men blind themselves for if there be not an absolute obedience owing to particular Doctors as M. de Condom did aver it there is then neither pride nor presumption in believing it may so happen that one may understand the sense of the Scripture better than them tho' people are obliged to presume Charitably probably that this will not happen That it was the same thing in regard of the Assemblies which not being of themselves infallible ought not to pretend to have an absolute obedience paid them being a thing which is only owing to God that St. Paul himself had said there was no dominion over the Faith of the Corinthians M. de Condom said this passage was ill alledged and ask'd M. Claude if he did not think an absolute Obedience was owing to Saint Paul M. Claude made answer that an absolute Obedience was owing to things divine which Saint Paul taught and not to his person neither is it said M. de Condom to the persons who compose the Councils we pretend that Obedience to be paid but to the Holy Spirit which conducts 'em according to what the Council of Jerusalem said it has pleas'd the Holy Spirit and us When the Holy Spirit said M. Claude appears in the Decisions of the Councils as it appeared in the Doctrine of Saint Paul and in that of the Council of Jerusalem we ought to render them that Obedience and not otherwise Now it appears therein when their decisions are framed according to the Word of God M. de Condom insisted there was no question about the Word of God but about the true sense thereof M. Claude said t●is distinction was of no use for the true sense of the Word of God and the Word of God are but one and the same thing There M. de Condom return'd to the Independants and said that upon the principle of M. Claude there was no way to avoid Independantisme nor prevent the being as many Religions as Parishes as many Religions as heads That the Independants did not reject the Assemblies for instructions but that they would not allow the Assemblies should decide by authority and that the pretended reformed were conformable to them He repeated over and over the same thing a pretty while to which M. Claude reparteed what he had already answered that in truth there was no humane means certain and infallible to hinder the errors of the with of man but that there was one divine and infallible which was the Holy Spirit which God communicated to his true Beleivers and that the Synods and other Assemblies were useful means and proper for that purpose and that the Independants had only been condemned because they rejected these last and not because they would not allow the Assemblies should decide with an entire and absolute authority that tho' the Protestants did not allow Assemblies a soveraign and illimited authority they allowed them however all the authority that Ministers and the Dispensers of the Word of God can have This would be disputing everlastingly said then M. de Condom I ask you once again Sir if you believe meer particular Persons can understand the sense of the Word of God better than the whole Church Assembled in a Council M. Claude said he had already answered him to that viz. that it did not commonly so happen nay and that People were obliged to hope better from the Ecclesiastical Assembly but that it might nevertheless happen that humane passions and worldly interests prevailing in an Assembly the Decisions would not be squared therein according to the truth There 's no having recourse said M. de Condom to humane passions nor to worldly interests you must answer in a word to the question and say yes or no. Humane passions and worldly interests said M. Claude are very reasonably urg'd upon this subject for those are the principal causes of erroneous Decisions but since you will not allow 'em to be spoken off to you I le answer you by distinguishing and saying that God does not allow that this ordinarily happens but that in absolutely speaking it may happen M. de Condom said he demanded but that and how 't was the greatest of all absurdities to beleive it may come to pass a meer particular person may better understand the sense of the Scripture better than a whole Church Assembled in Council M. Claude made answer how he wondered he should tax us of so great an absurdity what was but an effect of the freedom of God in the dispensation of his Grace That if the point was concerning humane Lights there would be absurdity in saying that a meer particular person had more understanding than a whole Assembly and that this would be a principle of pride and presumption But tho the thing in issue was the Lights of the Holy Spirit which breathes where it pleases and which God may possibly not give to a whole Assembly when he shall give it to meer particular persons that this same thing had effectually hapned in the time of Jesus Christ according to what he himself had said in Matt. I give thee thanks O Father Lord of Heaven and Earth for that thou hast concealed those things from the Wise and Vnderstanding and hast revealed them to the little That the whole Judaick Church had determined in its Assemblies that Jesus Christ was an impostour That it was nevertheless not only a Church out the only Church in the world invested with all the authority of God who had founded nourished and brought it up untill that time that God had instructed it by his Apostles had made in the depositary of his Oracles That with a just Title it gloryed in a succession of two thousand years that its Assemblies were in the former and Jesus Christ Himself own'd it they are seated said he in the Chair of Moses all the things they shall bid you keep keep them and do them That nevertheless this Church had determined the most Capital and most Criminal of all Errours which was to reject Jesus Christ as a wretched person and an impostour that then it must necessarily have been said that meer particular persons might better understand the sense of the Scripture than the whole Body of the Church Assembled and that if the principle of M. de Condom was true namely that one must have an absolute submission for the Decisions of Ecclesiastical Assemblies without attributing to ones self the right examining 'em it would be to condemn Jesus Christ and all those who should beleive in him For according to this Principle Jesus Christ ought not to address himself to the People after the Decisions of the Church which were contrary to him neither ought the People to have given ear to him since they were no longer allow'd to examine what had been decided nevertheless added he I. C. did not forbare preaching to the People and converting several the People also listened to his motion notwithstanding the Decisions that were