a Protestant §. 2. Prot. Perhaps we do not agree in the sence of this Article Cath. It may well be so therefore for a tryal give me leave to propose a few Questions to you Prot. Ask what you please Cath. First then when you say you believe the holy Catholic Church do you not believe this Church to be one Body as St. Paul expresly teaches saying There is one Body one Spirit as there is one Hope of our calling one Lord one Faith one Baptism one God and Father of all c. Ephes. 4. 4. 5. 6. and as we profess in the following Creeds of the Church Prot. Yes I believe the true Catholic Church of Christ to be one Body §. 3. And do you not further believe that this Church of Christ shall continue one Body till the end of the world Prot. Yes doubtless for otherwise the time might come in which this Article of our Faith should be false and also Christ's promise That the Gates of Hell should never prevail against his Church should fail §. 4. Cath. In professing such a Belief of this Article do you not also intend thereby to acknowledg your self a Member of this one Catholic Church Prot. Yes without doubt Cath. You cannot surely think it a matter indifferent whether you be a Member of this one Church or not Prot. No by no means On the contrary I acknowledg that whosoever is separated from this one Church of Christ and dies in that separation cannot be saved §. 5. Cath. Thus far then we both agree Let us further if you please consider what a Church in general is I mean a Christian Church Prot. I conceive it to be a Society of Men and Women publicly professing that Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ. §. 6. Cath. But every Society thus professing is it thereby the same Church which we are taught to believe in the Creed Prot. It is at least a part of that Church Cath. Are then Societies of Heretics and Schismatics part of that one Church since they also profess the Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ Prot. No For they cut themselves off from this one Church either by inventing New and false Doctrines which renders them Heretics that is Chusers of a new Faith Or by disobeying the Lawful Commands of this one Church which renders them Schismatics that is Rebels §. 7. Cath. Can any Society be called one Body or Corporation unless it be united by common received Laws and Governors Prot. I now begin to perceive whither you would lead me Therefore I must advise well lest I engage my self too far by an hasty answer to this Question Cath. Sir it is not Victory but truth we now regard Therefore speak not of being engaged but freely recal any Answer you have or shall give if you find cause And as for the present Question consider well what that is which makes a Society as a Kingdom a Province an Army a City a Corporation to become one Body Is it not an Obligation imposed on those who live respectively in any of these to be subject to the peculiar Government and Laws there established This appears plainly in that wheresoever any one obstinately refuses such submission he is esteemed and treated as a Rebel a Fugitive an outlawed person and utterly deprived of all Priviledges and emoluments belonging to the said Body Prot. This cannot be denyed Cath. Apply this then to God's Church St. Paul says expresly it is one Body your Creed obliges you to call it One The Scripture compares it to a City at Unity in it self and to a well ordered Army with Banners under which all Soldiers are reduced in their ranks expecting the Generals command signifyed by subordinate officers Such a society is Gods Church It is the Kingdom of Christ which if once divided cannot stand But by his promise it and no other Kingdom besides it shall stand for ever and therefore it shall never be Divided but all its members shall continue in their order Now what makes such Order but obedience to Government and Laws Can you Imagine any other excluding this Prot. I must confess I cannot For it is plain that where every one will be a Law to himself there can be no Order nor Unity nothing but confusion and endless Divisions Cath. Hence it follows then that the Church must necessarily consist of Teachers and Disciples of Governors and Subjects Prot. That is granted Cath. And consequently that it is a Visible Society Prot. True for otherwise none will be able to know whom or what to obey No Society can be invisible to the members of it and it is not a Society if the Governors or Teachers in it be invisible and the Laws unknown §. 8. Cath. By whom have these Teachers and Governors been appointed in the Church Prot. St. Paul informs us Epes 4. 11. 12. 13. saying Christ gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the work of the Ministery for the edifying of the Body of Christ Till we all come in the unity of the Faith and of the knowledg of the Son of God unto a perfect man c. So also we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews No man taketh this honour to himself but he that is called of God as was Aaron Heb. 5. 4. §. 9. Cath. This being so are not they who are Disciples in Gods Church obliged in conscience to believe their Teachers and Subjects to obey their Governors Prot. Yes without doubt But yet with this condition that these Teachers teach truth and these Governors command lawful things Cath. But is every Subject to be a Iudg whether the Doctrine taught him be true and the thing commanded lawful Prot. The Scripture is to be Judg between them Cath. Indeed that which you say would be to some purpose if the Scripture could speak and answer the Readers Questions and Doubts as we two can do to one another But the Scripture being only a Writing and by consequence incapable of interpreting its own meaning whensoever any doubt of its true sence arises if it may be permitted to every Christian to judg of his Teachers Doctrines by examining them by Scripture the Church may as well be without Teachers §. 10. Prot. I know no remedy For since it is evident to us that there is on Earth no visible infallible Guide and Interpreter of Scripture we cannot rely upon any Man or any Society of Men so as to remain secure that they will not mislead us either out of ignorance or secular interests Therefore we must leave to all Christians a judgment of diseretion to discern by the Light of Gods word whether their Teachers guide them in the way of Truth or not Every one must take the best course he can not to fall into any dangerous Error And since Eternity depends upon it it is not likely that men will
wilfully misinterpret Scripture to their own destruction especially in Points Fundamental which are so clearly set down in Scripture that no sober Enquirer can be mistaken in them Cath. Well Sir I have at present done asking Questions and now better enabled by what you have said will endeavor to give you a fuller Answer to the Question you proposed in the begining viz. Why are you a Catholick §. 11. First then Sir I am a Catholick because I believe that Christ the Author and Finisher of our Faith is infinitely both good wise and omnipotent His goodness inclined him to come down into this world to save mankind by establishing a Church upon earth which should remain till the end of the world and in which the way to Heaven should be so taught as not only the Wise and Learned but the Poor Simple and Ignorant also should by Faith and Obedience be made partakers of Eternal Happiness Now his goodness having designed this his wisdom enabled him to appoint ways and means proper to effect that his blessed Design and omnipotence to make those means successful § 12. The general efficacious means to accomplish this are first The revealing his whole will to his Church which we acknowledg to be sufficiently done in Holy Scripture as to all points absolutely necessary to Salvation though in all those points not so clearly to every one that without a Teacher their sense may not be mistaken Neither doth Scripture make an express discernment of what points are necessary And secondly The assisting of this his Church with fidelity and a constant performance of her duty in declaring all necessary Divine Truth manifested to her to her Subjects with a command that all Christians should obey and submit to what she shall teach or enjoyn them God having thus revealed his whole Will to his one Catholic Church it necessarily and evidently follows 1. That Ignorance or Error in any Points of Christian Doctrine necessary to Salvation is damnable 2. That a Seperation from this one Church is damnable also upon what pretence soever the separation be made §. 13. Now to avoid eternal Misery thus threatned by Error or Schism only one of these two ways is possible 1. By ones own light to penetrate into all Mysteries so as to be most firmly assured of a right understanding of all necessary verities revealed by God in Holy Scriptures 2. Or out of a distrust of our own abilities to submit our Reason and internal Assent to Authority The former of these ways all Sects divided from the Roman Church and among themselves do uniformly take being forced hereto by denying any visible Society of men to have any authority obliging the Consciences of their Subjects and by conseqence they have all if any an equal Title that is indeed equally none at all to challenge belief one as well as another neither can they rationally without deserting their common Ground condemn or excommunicate one another The latter way we Catholics only take and as we think prudently and surely §. 14. For Sir I beseech you to consider what a busy laborious task you have undertaken by being a Protestant of what Sect among them soever you are Before you can promise to your self any rest of mind in the Peculiar Fundamental Doctrines of your Sect your Conscience must satisfy you that you have not embraced a Religion by hazard but after a diligent sincere and effectual examination of all the Reasons and arguments not only of Catholicks submitting to Authority but also of other Sectaries who proceeding your way of interpreting Scripture by a private light do condemn your Doctrines or whose Doctrines you condemn To be able to do all this how many Volums of Controversy are you obliged to read and examine Besides this it will be absolutely necessary that you be perfectly studyed in all the Books of Scripture with the best Commentaries on them both Ancient and Modern since you ground your Religion upon a sense of Scripture which perhaps not any of them will allow and then in equity you are to examine their reasons for it Now what one mans age will suffice for all this business though but in one or two Points controverted and though the party were learned and had never so much leasure What then shall ignorant persons do who yet make up the greatest number of Christians What shall Trades-men and Day-Labourers do who can scarce allow from their necessary Vocations any time at all dayly even to say their Prayers yet it concerns all these upon the venture of Eternal Happiness or Misery not to forsake or embrace a Religion without a sufficient Examination made by themselves of the grounds of it since they are told and believe it that they must trust to themselves only because no external Authority upon Earth can require from them a submission of their judgment inasmuch as according to their general fundamental Positions no Authority is infallible §. 15. Now whereas you said That all Fundamental Doctrines of Christianity are so clearly set down in Scripture that no sober Enquirer can be mistaken in them If this were true yet since neither the Scripture nor you your selves do clearly express which and how many Doctrines are fundamental every tittle of Scriptures must be read and examined by every one of you for fear a necessary Doctrine should chance to escape you But to demonstrate the groundlesness of that your Assertion I desire you to reflect on the prodigious multiplicity of Sects swarming in this age all which ground their Belief upon pretended clear Texts of Scripture alone you will then scarce find one Article of Christian Faith exempted from their Disputes There are not wanting who deny the Mistery of the Holy Trinity the Divinity and Incarnation of our Lord the Divine Personality of the Holy Ghost Some absolutely deny Freewill whilst others exalt the power of it so high as to affirm Divine Grace unnecessary to its best Operations Some affirm our Nature to be so incurably polluted by Original Sin as that all the best actions of the Regenerate are Mortal Sins Others will acknowledge no Original Sin at all Some affirm Baptism necessary to Salvation even of Infants Others reject Infant-Baptism and Calvinists assert that Infants without Baptism are sanctified by their Parents faith and that some Infants dying though baptized may be damned Some believe mans Soul to be mortal and that it perisheth with the Body not having any Knowledg or Sentiment after death Some confine God to a determinate place in Heaven and also deny his Prescience of future Contingents Lastly some deny an Eternity of torments in Hell Surely you will not deny most of these to be contrary to Fundamental Doctrines of our Faith yet all who maintain these Tenets and all Sectaries who contradict them do ground themselves upon express Scripture which to you seems so clear You cannot be more confident that you have light on the true sence of Scripture than they of a
require Belief of them we cannot assent to them without rendring our selves guilty of apparent contradicting Scripture generally in them all and no less than the heynous Crimes of Superstition and Idolatry in several of them Cath. I do not much wonder to hear from you so a cruel a Censure of our Catholic Belief Yea perhaps I should my self joyn with you in the like if I should take a prospect of the Church by the same false Light that I perceive you have done Prot. Why Sir from whence should I receive Light to discover what you teach but from our Controvertists §. 52. Cath. I did not at all doubt from whence that which you call Light came And therefore permit me to tell you that if you frame your judgment touching the Faith of Catholics by what you find commonly in Controvertists you will condemn you know not what nor whom Prot. This is strange Do none of our Controvertists understand what your Church teaches §. 53. Cath. What and how much they understand I cannot define But this I may with confidence say that generally judging of your Controvertists not a twentieth part of one of their Volumes contains an examination of the necessary Faith of the Church which Faith notwithstanding is pretended to be confuted in every Page Prot. Notwithstanding what you say yet your Controvertists also in answering our Books do take on them to defend whatsoever ours oppose as the Doctrines of your Church Cath. It is too true indeed of some of them who deserve much to be blamed for giving thereby occasion to our Adversaries to multiply unnecessary Debates by a partial esteem of their own private adopted Opinions of their peculiar Interpretations of the Churches Doctrines their probable Additions to them and Inferences from them all which they are desirous should pass for Points of Catholic Faith Besides this several Schoolmen there are whose end of Writing being to boast their Wit and Subtilty who will penetrate into all things no Mysteries shall be incomprehensible to their Philosophy and who think it a great Mastery to advance Positions bordering on the very brink of Heresie Speculative or Moral and then by some nice Distinction to prove them if not Orthodox at least not deserving the utmost Censures And of these mens rashness Protestants oft-times take advantage and zealously oppose them as if the Church were obliged to make good their aery Speculations §. 54. Prot. What Expedient then do you propose to me by which I may be certainly informed of your Churches Doctrines Cath. The way is plain easie and short if you will look before you and not wilfully go out of it Prot. I pray you put me into that way Cath. The way is to examine candidly and seriously the Churches own Decisions only which if you do you will find how little she is concern'd in the accusations you lay against her Prot. If this prove true surely our Modern Controvertists have a dreadful Account to make to God who seem studiously to design the widening of the breaches amongst Christians Cath. That what I say is true I dare take the confidence to make your self the Iudge And this I undertake to demonstrate through all the controverted Points before mentioned by you not by disputing alledging Proofs or answering Objections but only by representing to you in a simple manner the pure naked Doctrine of the Church in relation to all these Points Prot. I am likewise sufficiently averse from clamorous Disputes which commonly are only Prizes of a quick Fancie or voluble tongue and fomentors of unruly Passions Therefore I expect what you intend to say §. 55. Cath. Before I begin I have a few Requests in my judgment not unreasonable to make to you The first is 1. That having supposed that upon a true or false Belief Eternity of Happiness or Misery depends you would force your Imagination to put your self in that state in which your first Reformers really were immediately before they broke from the Churches Obedience and Communion and supposing that you were earnestly tempted by them also to forsake it by adhering to a New-begun Society never heard of in the world before upon a pretence that the Church in which you live and which you as yet esteem to be the true Catholic Church teaches most pernicious Errours Superstitions and Idolatrous practices Of the Justice of which pretence your Tempters now declared Enemies will needs be the Iudges Prot. This I will endeavour to perform §. 56. 2. Cath. My Second Request is That you will acknowledge that the Doctrines of Catholic Faith once decided by the Church are to be understood in the plain literal Sence and in the latitude of the Churches expression And by consequence that when they are severally restrained to different particular Senses by interpretation of Catholic writers such Interpretations are not necessarily to be admitted by you And much less are other Doctrins by inference drawn from them to be esteemed Points of Catholic Faith but only Opinions of particular Divines which do not oblige to Assent Prot. This ought in reason to be acknowleged §. 57. 3. Cath. My third and last Request is That when your Tempters shall tell you that the Catholic Church teaches Dostrins contrary to Scripture you would acknowledge that unless such a pretended Contrariety can be evidently demonstrated to you you ought not for that cause to forsake the Churches Communion For undoubtedly where her Doctrines seem only probably contrary to some Text of Scripture her Authority is such as to oblige you to belive that her Sence ought to be preferred before that of her Enemies who are desstitute of all Authority And it would be madness to transgress the necessary Duty of peaceful Obedience and of avoiding Schism upon a probable hope of finding some Truths elsewhere Prot. Reason requires that this also be granted §. 58. Cath. These concessions therefore being presupposed give me leave to put you in mind of what you said at the entrance into this our Discourse viz. That this may be with full assurance asserted that you cannot assent to any of those Doctrines taught by the Roman Church and rejected by your Party without rendering your self guilty of apparent contradicting Scripture Prot. I remember this well but how will you disprove me Cath. If this Perswasion of yours were well grounded it would be not only in vain but unlawful for me to seek to withdraw you from it But being on the other side assured that what you say is apparent is only so in a false appearance to your mind prepossessed I hope I may without vanity promise to demonstrate to you that you only think an this without Ground that you are assured Prot. You make large Promises to your self which I believe will have small effect upon me Cath. Sir Truth and a Good intention make me confident that Divine Grace which is Omnipotent will accompany them Whereas therefore you say That Roman Doctrines are apparently or evidently contrary
to Scripture I desire you to take into consideration that the same Roman Church at the same time both proposed the Belief of those Doctrins to your first Reformers and also gave them the Scriptures testifying that they were the infallible Word of God Therefore certainly it was far from being evident to her that her Doctrines did evidently contradict Divine Revelation Now you will not surely deny but that in the Catholic Church there are men as learned and those in a far greater number than among Protestants Men I say who also make the Scriptures their principal study and have published almost innumerable Commentaries on them again Men of whom a great number live sequestred from the world in an assiduous Practice of Spiritual Prayer and therefore not likely to have their judgments perverted by worldly interests Yet not any one of these does see or but suspect that the Faith they profess is contradicted by Gods Word on the contrary they invincibly demonstrate that the Church has been as the only Depository of Scripture so likewise of the true Sence of it How comes then that to be evident to you which is invisible to them Which way went the Spirit of God from the whole Church to inhabite a debauched incestuous Fryer or a stigmatized Pichard upon whose credit doubtless you have taken up your Evidence If they could have shewed you in Scripture such passages as these The Pope is not the Supream Bishop and Visible Head of the Church Bread by Sanctification does not become the Body of Christ We ought not to confess our sins to Priests Purgatory is a meer humane invention It is an injury to Christ to desire Saints but none to desire Sinners to pray for us c. Such sayings indeed as these might have justifyed your charge against the Church that she contradicts Scripture But where are such sayings to be found except it be in the Heretical Writings of your Reformers On the contrary some Points contradictory to those are found litterally contained in Scripture and to elude them you are foced to have recourse to figurative sences and the rest are conveyed to us by the same Authority by which we receive the Scripture it self Yea by the Holy Fathers justified as consonant to Scripture and however I suppose you will not say that silence is equivolent to express contradiction The utmost that you can say is that perhaps you can produce now and then some scattered Texts of Scripture from which you can make a shew of arguing against some Tenets of the Catholic Church But what will that avail you since Probability as hath been said will not excuse you for omitting a necessary duty of Obedience and incurring the horible guilt of Schism Where now do you see an evidence that the Church contradicts Scripture Prot. I shall be better enabled to give a resolution in this Point when according to your promise you shall have given me an account of the necessary Doctrines of your Church in the points controverted between us §. 60. Cath. That Promise I will now with Gods assistance discharge through all the Points mentioned by you in the beginning And first as touching the two first Points viz. 1. The Churches Authority 2. The Popes Universal Iurisdiction c. enough hath been said in our former discourse Yet for your further satisfaction I will enlarge my self a little more Take therefore into your consideration that it is a Fundamental Truth agreed on by all Catholics That the only Objects of Catholic Faith are such Divine Truths as are revealed in Gods Word and also proposed to all by the Catholic Church to be believed by Divine Faith Now this general Ground being presupposed in case any Controversies should arise touching the sence of any Divine Truths revealed it is unquestionably necessary that some Means should be appointed by God to determine such controversies and to prevent a dissipation of his Church by Heresies and Schisms And what other Mean can be imagined efficacious hereto then what hath been taught and practised even from the Apostles time and this declared by the Council of Trent That no man trusting to his own prudence or skill shall presume to interpret Holy Scripture in matters of Faith or Manners pertaining to edification of Christian Doctrine wresting it to his own sences against that sence which our Holy Mother the Church doth or hath held to whom it belongs to judg of the true sence and interpretation of Holy Scriptures or also against the unanimous consent of the Fathers This is that which the Roman Catholic Church teaches concerning her Authority of interpreting controverted Texts of Scripture No more then this is any Catholic obliged to believe Now I leave it to your conscience whether you can think it a sufficient Ground for you to break from her Communion upon this quarrel because she judges more fit that the judgment of the whole Body of Teachers and Governors appointed by God in her should prevail against your single judgment or that of a few Apostat-Ministers Especially considering the Promises made by our Lord to his Apostles and their lawful Successors that his Spirit should remain with them and direct them into all Truth till the end of the world so as that the gates of Hell that is say the Fathers Heresies should never prevail against them Prot. I see it is in vain to contradict this §. 61. Cath. Let us next proceed to what the Church has determined touching the Priviledges and Authority of the Prime Pastor the Bishop of Rome Thus then we read in the Confession of Faith collected by the Pope himself out of the Council of Trent I acknowledg the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church to be the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and I promise true Obedience to the Bishops of Rome Successor of St. Peter Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Iesus Christ. Here the See Apostolic being acknowledged the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and the Pope Vicar of Christ his universal Iurisdiction is therein acknowledged which Jurisdiction or Authority we are not to suppose to be arbitrary and unlimitted but as we read in a Canon of the Council of Florence consented to by the Emperor Patriark and other Bishops of Greece to be exercised 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. after the manner as is also contained in the Gests of Oecumenical Councils and Sacred Canons And such a Primacy invested with Authority as this the General Council of Chalcedon admitted by Protestants does acknowledg in him which is also attested by Tradition and practice from the beginning §. 62. Now the necessity of such a standing Authority in Gods Church is thus grounded The absolutely Supream Ecclesiastical Authority against which can lye no Appeal is confessedly residing in a lawful General Council by which all Debates whatsoever may be determined all necessary Laws enacted c. But it being a matter of infinite difficulty especially since the division of
be admitted in France the Pope not only knowing but expresly allowing such refusal as appears by the Bull of Pope Clement the eight sent to King Henry the fourth at his reception into the Church and recited by Cardinal Perron in his Epistles in which Bull we find this Clause His Majesty shall effectually take order that the Council of Trent he published and admitted in all things Excepting only at your must earnest Supplication and Petition those things if there be any such which cannot be put in execution without a real disturbance of public tranquility The King of Spain likewise though believed to be more complyant with the Court of Rome being sollicited by the Pope to publish and admit the same Council in his Belgick Provinces though he willingly yielded thereto yet he did it not without this additional Clause adjoyned Touching the Regalities Rights Prerogatives and Preeminences of his Majesty his Vassals Estates and Subjects the Laycal Iurisdiction hitherto used the Right of Lay-Patronage the Right of Nomination Hearing of causes in the possessory matter of Benefices Tithes possessed or pretended to by Seculars c. in regard of all such things his Majesties Intention is that proceedings shall go on as hitherto they have done without changing any thing at all c. So necessarily scrupulous are Christian Princes to prevent the least diminution of their Temporal Rights and Priviledges More lately likewise when certain Authors of one Order published several Treatises in which they endeavoured to exalt to the height the Popes Iurisdiction Universal in Temporal affairs those Books were censured and condemned by many Catholic Universities and committed to the fire by Public Authority the Pope not being ignorant hereof And moreover which perhaps is yet more considerable the Superior General of the said Religious Order even in Rome it self published an Edict known to all Christendom by which he strictly forbad his Subjects under most heavy Censures to maintain such a Temporal Iurisdiction of the Pope either in Books Sermons or Disputations Now that which makes this so solemn a Prohibition of more weight is this that whereas the foresaid Authors earnestly contended to prove that all Christians were obliged to believe the Popes Right to such Authority as an Article of our Christian Faith the said General by publishing his Prohibitory Edict clearly shewed that he renounced the Belief of such a Doctrine For otherwise Who but a◠Antichrist would so severely under a penalty of Excommunication forbid the teaching or defending an Article of Faith And moreover in a General Chapter not long after assembled the said Prohibition was ratified by all Superiors of the same Order as their own Writers testifie Prot. I must needs confess that Christian Princes and Subjects too are much beholding to that Worthy General for his prudence and zeal to prevent occasions of tumults and Seditions Notwithstanding it seems to me that Princes are not yet secure for though the said Doctrine should cease to be esteemed an Article of Faith why may it not be defended as an Opinion at least Speculatively probable and if so a slender Probability will have force but too great to raise and foment Rebellions when discontents are multiplied among the people §. 66. Cath. You are much deceived Sir For besides that you may be sure that Princes will never permit their Authority to be rendred questionable the very pretending such a Doctrine to be only Probable is equivalently to grant that it is no Authority at all Since every one knows that a meer probable Title against a long established possession such as is that of Princes for their Temporal Soveraignty is in Law and Reason accounted no Title and consequently none who have any sence of Christianity will ever seek with the horrible Scandal of Religion to instill such a manifestly unjust incentive to Rebellion into the minds of Christians And now Sir I beseech you to consider things seriously and then judg with what injustice and cruelty our whole Religion and Church is condemned as teaching Treason and Rebellion and this only for a few private mens Writings so generally abhorred by our selves Prot. All I can say hereto is that for as much as concerns my self I will be no longer an accuser of your Church in this matter Proceed therefore if you please to the other following Points 4. Of the Real Presence and Transubstantiation §. 67. Cath. The next Point of Catholic Doctrine opposed by all Sectaries regards the Holy Eucharist Their rage against the former is indeed greater because interest is more concerned in it but a greater advantage for seducing the ignorant people they make of this because they permit them to judg of this most dreadful Mystery by their outward Senses which Catholics instructed by Holy Fathers tell them are not to be believed here In the Eucharist the first matter of Dispute and ground of the rest is the Catholic Doctrine touching the Real Presence of our Lords Body on the Altar after Consecration of the Symbole thus declared in the Council of Trent I prosess that in the most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist is present truly and substantially the Body and the Blood together with the Soul and Divinity of our Lord Iesus Christ And that there is made a Conversion of the whole Substance of the Bread into his Body and of the whole substance of the Wine into his Blood Which Conversion the Catholic Church calls Transubstantiation This Article of our Belief is to us solidly established on the Words of Institution THIS IS MY BODY which Words without any figurative explication are repeated alike by three Evangelists and the Apostle Saint Paul therefore we believe following universal Tradition that our Lord sincerely meant as he spake and because we believe so we are hated Prot. But how can you expect that we should assent hereto since our Senses contradict it §. 68. Cath. You cannot say however that our Senses are deceived for in this great Mystery they have a right perception of their proper Objects to wit Colour Extention Figure c. Neither I suppose will you say that the judgment which Reason from the Senses collects is always infallible For if so then for example our Saviour whilst living on earth should have been judged a meer Man And the Angels appearing to Lot and his daughters no Angels but meer men for so would Reason relying on the outward Senses have judged Prot. in these examples Divine Revelation expresly teaches the contrary Cath. Then if in the present case you were assured by Divine Revelation that God by a supernatural Power did on the Priests consecrating the Symbols produce a real Change of the Outward Elements into the Body and Blood of Christ you would believe God against your Senses Prot. I should no doubt §. 69. Cath. Can you have a greater assurance hereof then the express Words of Christ literally understood by the Constant Tradition of all Churches in all ages Prot. Such an assurance
abilities or blind passion against all Guides establish'd in Gods Church if Divine Revelation consent of Antiquity manifest Reason and even experience by outward Sensation may be fit to guide me I must not be a Protestant I must of necessity be a Roman Catholic For Divine Revelation interpreted also by consent of Fathers and Councils informs me that Christ hath established on Earth a visible Church which is one holy and Catholic the common Mother and only authentick Teacher of all Christians that this Church shall remain such to the end of the World and that whosoever is not a true faithful Member of this Church is thereby cut off from the Mystical Body of Christ and shall be eternally separated from Him Again evident Reason shews that no Person or Society can be esteemed a Member of any Church any other way than by believing its Doctrines and being subject to its Laws and Government In the third place the testimony of our Senses assures us that not any of our Modern Sects do assent to the Doctrines or are governed by the Laws of any Church at all and consequently not of the Catholic Church which had a being at their first pretended Reformation therefore upon these grounds it evidently follows that all the said Sects are manifestly guilty of Schism Moreover since the Roman is that Church of which the first Reformers once were Members and by reforming made a separation from it and since the same Church does constantly profess the same Doctrines which were once held by the Universal Body of Orthodox Christians and again since there is not any visible Church upon earth to which all marks of the true Church assigned in Scripture and by the Holy Fathers can be so applied and whereto the Antient Prophecies and the Promises of Christ have been so perfectly accomplished as the Roman it will evidently follow that the present Roman Catholic Church ought to be acknowledged that one Holy Catholic Church which we confess in the Apostles Creed and by consequence whatsoever Doctrines in opposition to the Faith professed in this Church are taught by Protestants they are thereby without any particular discussion legitimately prejudged to be formal Heresies Now Heresie and Schism being by all even by Hereticks and Schismaticks themselves acknowledged most dreadfully wasting Crimes of which I cannot possibly be guilty whilst I adhere to the Roman Catholic Church nor avoid the guilt of them by forsaking its Communion I conceive I have without any necessity of engaging in particular Disputes given you rational Grounds enabling me to afford a sufficient Answer to the Question first proposed by you viz. Why are you a Catholic §. 40. And for a conclusion Sir give me leave to tell you that it will be utterly in vain for you to atempt the avoiding of the stigmata brands of Heresie and Schism by entring into an endless Dispute about particular Controversies to be stated out of Books For till you be able to shew a present Visible Orthodox Church the Governors and Teachers whereof are derived by a continual Succession from the Apostles which Church in all those Points for which you have separated from the Roman teaches as you do and either governs you or is governed by you Till this I say be done your busying your self about particular Disputes will never produce to you Peace of mind but rather encrease in you Pride and Malice against others Your first most necessary Care therefore must be to establish your self in such a Church as can oblige you to believe her for by no other way can you nor your Teachers avoid Self-condemnation as manifest Innovators There are certain illustrious marks assigned by the holy Scriptures and Fathers to distinguish the true Catholic Church from Congregations of Hereticks and Schismaticks such are Unity Succession Universality Converting of Nations Miracles c. And these are such marks as are perceptible by the meanest capacities to the end that none should be excused if they mistake the Church Now not one of these so visible marks belongs to you and not one but belongs to the Roman Catholic Church §. 41. When you are urged to shew some signs or marks which might invite any to joyn with you all you can say is That you teach truth and that you duly administer the Sacraments that is you would prove your selves to be a true Church because you say you are a true Church for not the marks but the essence of a Church consists in teaching Truth c. But marks of his Church easily observable by all men were appointed by God to lead the Simple as well as the Learned to discover that Church which only teacheth Truth and duly administers his Sacraments Not any such marks do you pretend to shew And as for this your miscalled single Mark the Unlearned cannot possibly judg whether you do indeed teach Truth c. and the Learned must have spent their whole lives before they can be in a capacity to judg And though they should be so unhappy as to suffer themselves to be convinced that you do teach Truth c. yet till you can further demonstrate that you are not guilty of Schism but that you communicate with that one holy Catholic Church which you believe in the Creed it would notwithstanding all the truth pretended to be taught by you be a damnable sin in them to communicate with you These things considered since I am confident it is impossible for you to clear this point I believe you will find an insuperable difficulty to prepare according to the method observed here a tolerable general answer sufficient to vindicate your Church in case I should by way of exchange propose to you this Question Why are you a Protestant Prot. Judg not Sir too hastily Perhaps at our next meeting you will hear more than you now expect In the mean time I thank you for your Charity And God willing I will seriously reflect on what hath been said Cath. Farewel Sir and if you think good cast your eyes upon this little bundel of Citations out of several ancient Holy Fathers of the Church who will tell you that upon the very same grounds which have been here discoursed on they were good Christians and Catholics Prot. If they tell me so I shall not easily contemn what they tell me Farewel ✚ ¶ TESTIMONIES of HOLY FATHERS regarding The Substance of the foregoing DISCOURSE §. 1. Of the Churches prepetual Existence Visibility c. OBscurius dixerunt Prophetaeâ—de Christo quam de Ecclesia Puto propterea The Prophets have spoken more obscurely concerning Christ than concerning the Church The reason hereof I conceive to be because they foresaw in Spirit that men would make divisions and parties and that they would not much dispute about Christ himself but that they would raise great contentions about the Church Therefore that was more plainly foretold and more openly prophecyed concerning which greater contentions would in succeeding times
Remission and Heaven too for a few Prayers recited for visiting a certain number of Churches or disbursing a small sum of Money Quid ergo verba audio cum fact a videam Cath. All that you alledg being confessed what prejudice can that bring to you or me I told you that several School-men in their Speculations do attribute more to Indulgences then the Church gives them warrant for and this they themselves acknowledg So it fares in all Religions that Opinions do in number far exceed Articles of Faith No wonder therefore if Popes do enlarge their Graces according to the measure of Opinions not condemned And who justly blame them since they themselves reap no profit by all the Alms given Indeed in the former Ages great Scandal was given by the avarice of such as published Indulgences and collected the charitable Alms of devout people Of which Scandaâ— â—â—e Church taking notice utterly abolished that Office and commanded Bishops in such occasions to assume from among the Canons of their respective Churches to be Collectors of Alms withal strictly forbidding them to accept any reward at all for their labour §. 84. Matters standing thus what harm flows to any by Indulgences so published Though perhaps not one in a hundred gains the full vertue of such Indulgences yet something they do certainly gain some reward they will reap from performing the good actions enjoyned which probably would otherwise never have been done by many However they loose nothing at all They are taught not to expect remission of unrepented sins or to gain Heaven by an Indulgence for none are capable of the fruit thereof but such as have with Contrition confessed their sins and received absolution and consequently are in the state of Grace but yet remain obnoxious to temporal punishments from which an Indulgence duely made use of doth free them §. 85. One incommodity indeed may justly be apprehended by a too profuse and frequent concession of Indulgences which is the enervating of Ecclesiastical Discipline to prevent which the Church as I said in the entrance into this Point expresly and earnestly admonishes that the granting of them may be done with great moderation according to the antient and approved Custom of the Church Now If all this care will not yet satisfy you however surely you will have no excuse for leaving the Church upon this account because though there be never so many mistakes or abuses in the ordinary teach of Private Doctors and common practice about Indulgences you will not need to concern your self in any of them since if you think fit you may keep your money in your purse perform your Devotions in your private Closet endeavour to fulfil all Canonical Penances which have been or by the utmost rigor of Ecclesiastical Discipline ought to have been imposed on you for all your sins and so freely abstain all your life time from making use of an Indulgence Prot. Enough hath been said on this subject proceed if you think fit to the next 10. Of Iustification and Merit of Good Works §. 86. Cath. After the discoursing of Confession Penance and Indulgence it will be seasonable and proper to treat of the Fruit arising from or by occasion of them which is the Merit of Good Works and Iustification There is scarce any Point of Catholic Doctrine from which Protestants have sought greater advantage to multiply foolish Books and senceless Sermons then this touching Iustification and oft it falls out that their zealous Invectives against the Church are then most loudand bitter when explaining themselves they presently agree with the Churches sense Of this as soon as I have sincerely acquainted you with our Catholic Doctrine I am content you should be the Judg. §. 87. First then it is acknowledged that the Church teaches That men are justified indeed by the imputation of Christs Iustice and by Remission of their sins but not by these only so as to exclude Grace and Charity shed abroad in their hearts by the Holy Ghost that is in effect That God does not justify nor remit sins to persons while they persist in their sins and in a hatred of him Again the Church making use of the ordinary expression of the Holy Fathers teaches That a person justified truly merits eternal Life by his good Works Now this word Merit the word I say but not the true sense of it when they will permit us to explain it is very offensive to Protestants But you having obliged your self to avoid partiality will judg of the Churches sense by what she further adds for explication of this Point and for clearing her self from the imputation of encouraging men to glorify themselves and to trust in their own abilities for purchasing remission of sins and salvation §. 97. Thus then she further teaches it is necessary to believe that sins neither are nor ever have been remitted but by Divine Mercy freely extended to us for the merits of Iesus Christ. Again We are said to be justified freely because not any of those things which precede our Iustification whether Faith or Works can merit that Grace In the third place Eternal life ought to be proposed to the Children of God both as a free Grace mercifully promised to them through Iesus Christ and also as as a Recompence which is faithfully rendred to their Good Works and Merits by vertue of that Promise Fourthly although in Holy Scriptures so much is attributed to Good Works that Iesus Christ himself promises that a Cup of cold water given to the poor shall not fail of a Reward and that the Apostle testifies that our light and momentary tribulation worketh fur us a far more exceeding eternal weight of glory Yet God forbid that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself and not in the Lord whose Goodness towards all men is so great that he is pleased that the Free Gifts bestowed by him on them should be their Merits I will add only one passage more out of a great heap to the like effect We who of our selves as of our selves can do nothing by our Lords cooperation who gives us strength can do all things Thus man hath nothing in himself for which he can glory but all our glorying is in Christ in whom we live in whom we merit in whom we satisfy bringing forth fruits worthy of Repentance which fruits take their vertue from him are offered to the Father by him and accepted of the Father for him Thus are we instructed by the Church in the Council of Trent and moreover in the Canon of the Holy Mass we are taught thus to pray Mercifully vouchsafe O God to admit us into the Society of thy Apostles and Martyrs not weighing our Merits but pardoning our offences through Iesus Christ. §. 89. Can you now say Sir that the Roman Church teacheth her Children to glorifie themselves and to rely upon their own Merits or indeed to esteem their Merits to