blasphemous Arians To say nothinge of the diuell his citinge of scripture euen against our blessed Sauiour by al which it is more then euident that the sence of holy scripture besides the wordes is necessarilie required to make sufficient proofe of true doctrine For which reason I often bringe the incorrupte testimonie of some holy father for the sence of the place alleaged by me who haueinge liued att least a thousande yeares before these controuersies began cannott be esteemed partiall one our side PILK We adore the fulnes of scripture and prooue from thence not some but euerie pointe of our doctrine which you Iesuits neither canne doe nor professe to doe but the contrarie charginge them with insufficiencie and imperfection which howe manfullie you can desprooue by other texts will appeare in the discourse ensuinge CHAMP As you are more redounâ— in wordes in this section then in the precedent so are you more impertinent Your flant out of Tertullian shall be answered in the controuersie of scripture where you repeat it againe And for your vaine and windie brag to prooue euerie point of your doctrine out of holy scripture I knowe alreadie howe it will be performed to witt by fillinge your margents with quotations of scripture to delude the ignorant which beinge examined and compared with the article to be prooued haue as much resemblaÌ„ce with it as an aple with an oyster The ministers of Fraunce beinge of late detected of this fraude before the kinge himselfe and prouoked by his preacher to iustifie theire citations of scripture quoted in the margent of the confession of theire faith thoughe they seemed to take haynouslie the accusation yett till this day haue they not iustified theire quotations nor euer will Howe you will quitt your selfe in this point we shall see when we come vnto itt PILK In the meane while it is vntrue that all heretikes alleaged scriptures which they loue as wel as dogges doe whippes but iust as you papists say there is more force in tradition then in the written worde for they are owles that cannot abide the light of the scripture they massacre them as Martian did that they may builde vppe theire owne matters they alleage Apostolicall traditions as Artemon did who saide that all the auncients yea the Apostells taught and saide like himselfe and laide handes on the scriptures irreligiouslie sayinge that he had reformed them CHAMP You affirme bouldlie but prooue nothinge a fowle faulte in a doctour That all heretikes vniuersallie alleage scriptures which you say is moste vntrue heare the testimonie of one that is not partiall to either of vs and of more iudgment in this matter then vs both I meane Vincentius Lirinensis of equall standinge with S. Aug. who writeth thus Some will peraduenture demande here whether heretikes doe vse the testimonies of scripture They doâ— trulie and that vehementlie For you shall see them runne thorough all the bookes of holy scripture throughe the bookes of Moses of the kinges of the psalmes of the Apostles Euangelists and prophets For whether they speake with theire owne fellowes or with other whether priuatelie or publikelie whether in Sermons or in bookes whether in banquetts or in the streetes they neuer vtter anie thinge of theire owne but they will seeme to shaddowe it with the wordes of scripture Reade the workes of Paulus Samosateuus of Priscilian of Eunomius of Luther Caluin Zuinglius and of the rest of the plagues thou shalt finde almost an infinite heape of examples noe page that is not painted with the passages ' of the newe testament Nowe iudge your selfe whether your sayinge or myne is the more vntrue Yea which is more doe not I pray you the phaÌ„tasticall Swinkefildians a younger broode of your grande father Luther alleage scripture for theire reiectinge of all scripture and adheringe to theire dreames and reuelations yea and such scriptures as if you had the like for anie pointe of your misbeleefe you would thinke it fullie prooued by them You say that heretikes hate scriptures as dogges doe whippes which is true when they are vnderstoode in the sence of the churche and not accordinge to theire owne interpretation and after the same manner doe you loue them and not otherwise They affirme say you as papists doâ— more force to be in traditions then in scriptures What papist can you name that euer affirmed this name one at least or say you belie theÌ„ and doe not inuert the question but compare the receiued scripture with an approoued tradition for so are they to be compared to finde out whether of them hath the greater force where I woulde haue you further to note that the heretikes theire alleaginge of traditions doth prooue the authoritie of traditions euen with catholikes For no man of common seÌ„ce will alleage an authoritie which he knoweth to be not receiued of his aduersarie or could proue that it ought to be receiued You say Marâ—ion did massacre the scriptures But did he massacre the them more then your Maysters Luther and Caluin doe who cutt out of them manie whole bookes besides manie notable parcels of those bookes which they seeme to receiue Artemon you say affirmed that all the auncients yea the Apostles taught as he did and yett layde irreligious handes vppon the scriptures sayinge he had reformed them And doe not I pray you your masters say and doe the verie same where for the loue of God were your witts when you wrote these thinges that you sawe not all these sayinges of yours to be bloudie stripes to your selfe lett vs see the rest PILK Yea Arrius himselfe began thus his booke Thalia After this manner haue I learned of the elect of God accordinge to faith the knowers of him and the right walkers after him And of his followers whom you esteeme to haue stoode so much vppon the scriptures Athanasius reportes that when they coulde not preuaile by them they fledd to the Fathers as theeues vsuallie pretende honest and modest men to be theire companions like the wicked Iewes which claimed Abraham for theire Father when they were conuicted by the scriptures Against all which as against your traditions we oppose that worthie sayinge of Hierome All thinges that they pretende without authoritie and testimonie of scriptures the worde of God thrust through CHAMP You goe still forewarde in your impertinences hauinge either forgotten what you shoulde prooue or wittinglie wandringe vpp and downe to dazell the eies of your lesse skilfull reader and to wearie your aduersarie with followinge your idle stepps What I pray you doth all this you haue sayde make to prooue that heretickes alleage not scriptures for theire errours which is that you vndertooke to prooue nothinge att all If you woulde prooue that Arrius and his sectaries alleaged not scriptures for theire heresie because in the first line of his booke Thalia which seemeth to haue much semblance with the stile of your elected brotherhoode he alleageth none you are too seelie a
be it is manifest that in this case the proofe knowledg of the church must goe before the proofe and knowledge of the scriptures as beinge before it and leadinge vnto it and not the contrarie PILK This is yett more cleare by the verie proposition graunted by Papists that the scripture is the rule whereof the sence is that the sence and doctrine not the letters and characters are this rule Nowe lett our aduersaries iudge whether is more auncient the doctrine of the church which is the seede of the churche or the church which is begotten of it CHAMP You either ignorantlie mistake or wilfullie inuert the question which is not whether the holy scriptures be a rule of faith which noe christian denieth but whether it be the first and most vniuersall rule thereof And this none but heretikes that denie the authoritie of the churche and veritie of traditions both which notwithstandinge are expresselie testified by holy scripture did euer affirme And whether the church be more auncieÌ„t then the scriptures if you doubte as you seeme to doe yea and to affirme the contrarie I shall esteeme you either very senceles or verie wilfull and peâ—uers the scriptures hauinge been written by the churche vnles peraduenture by the scriptures or doctrine of the scriptures you vnderstande the worde of God written in the hearts of men by the immediate reuelation of the holy Ghost and by them deliuered by worde of mouth the one to the other vntill Moises who was the first that euer committed anie thinge to writinge If you take the scriptures in this sence that which you meane is true and if further you acknowledge the authoritie of the churche and veritie of Tradition in deliueringe this doctrine and teachinge it one to another by worde of mouth before it was written our controuersie is at an end The authoritie of the churche and traditions being euidentlie prooued to goe before the scriptures and consequentlie to be a more vniuersall rule of faith then the scriptures PILK So that as your first conclusion is a manifest vntruth that there is a more vniuersall rule of faith then the scriptures So the second is a dull and heauie conceipt that the churche shoulde be more auncient and before them CHAMP If either my first conclusion as you tearme it be a manifest vntruth or my second a dull coÌ„ceipt why doe you doombelie denie it without anie proofe or reason att all Especiallie seinge I prooued the first by cleare instance as you may see and the seconde is but a sequell or necessarie deduction of the first If it be enough for you to say that your aduersaries conclusions thoughe prooued by manifest instance are manifest vntruthes you may well hope to carrie away the bucklers from a farr greater clerke then euer I shall pretende to be For you knowe that Aristotles asse is able to denie more then his mayster is able to prooue PILK Peruse the fathers in whose workes you seeme to be conuersant and nominate one that hath taught either that the authoritie of the churche is a more vniuersall rule or that she was before theire doctrine which are the two cheefest stoopes of your religion whereas in them I finde that the scriptures is the rule and they nominate nothinge else CHAMP If you had weighed S. Aug testimonie which the manuall setteth downe in this place and which you vainlie strugle to auoyde with equall iudgment you woulde not haue putte me to further search of the fathers for proofe of that which I say You shall either deliuer your selfe better from S. Aug authoritie then here you haue donne or else you shall be forced to swallowe it downe as a bitter but a wholsome pill against your heresie Neither will I take the taxe at your hande to searche further the fathers for this purpose till I see this one better satisfied And you fight against your owne shaddowe when you labour to prooue by the fathers that the scriptures are a rule of our faith your aduersaries denyinge it not as I toulde you before But you loue to shewe your strength when none resisteth you And that the fathers nominate no other rule is as true as the rest of your sayinges For seeinge they auouch so plainlie and frequentlie traditions and the churches authoritie as you knowe they doe howe canne you say that they name noe other rule PILK The Ecclesiasticall rule is the consent and conspiration of the old and newe testament saith Clemens The holy scripture doth prefixe vnto vs the rule of our faith saith S. Aug. CHAMP I knowe not whether I shoulde attribute the citinge of this authoritie out of Clemens to your ignoraunce or to your fraude and desire to deceiue by it your reader it is so impertinent to your purpose He sayinge onlie that it is the Ecclesiasticall rule of interpretinge scriptures to make the prophetts and lawe to accorde with the testament of our Sauiour Christ Which what it maketh to prooue the scriptures to be the sole rule of faith I cannot conceiue S. Aug. you cite so at large that I knowe not where to look for the place by you alleaged to see whether it be not as pertinentlie alleaged as the other is And seinge the scriptures doe send vs to our pastours to learne our faith and to the churche commandinge vs to heare it it may well be sayde to prefixe vnto vs the rule of our faith and yett exclude not the churches authoritie for the which we nowe contende So that this place is as fitt for your purpose as the other PILK The churche goeth not out of her boundes that is the holy scriptures saith Ierome And least you might thinke it is the rule but not the onlie rule Vincentius addeth the sole rule of the scriptures is sufficient to all thinges CHAMP The churche followinge the authoritie of tradition and the iudgment of the churche in all matters of saith and manners which the scriptures doe expresslie geue testimonie and warrant vnto doth not goe out of the boundes of the scriptures In citinge Vincentius you vse your accustomed fraude leauinge out the wordes goinge before Which are so expresslie against your purpose that had you sett them downe they had been sufficient to confute your errours in this pointe they are these We haue sayde before haâ— this alwayes hath been and is also at this day the custome of Catholikes to prooue the truth of fayth by these two meanes First by the authoritie of diuine Canon then by tradition of the Catholike churche not because the Canon alone is not sufficient of it selfe to all thinges but c. Now lett the iudicious reader iudge whether this holy father make the scriptures the sole rule of faith or noe When he saith the sacred Canon is sufficient to all thinges he meaneth that it is sufficient to al thinges that is necessarie to euerie mans saluation or to euerie man to beleeue For these thinges are not many and sufficientlie
tract 98. in Ioh before mentioned Nowe your argument out of all these places is shewed to be vayne and of noe force by the particular answere to euerie authoritie And thus farr haue you brought nothinge more for the proofe of your position thē anie heretike in the worlde may or might haue brought for the proofe of his heresie For euerie heretike can bringe single places of scripture yea and of fathers in fauour of his heresie But to bringe scriptures interpreted by the fathers in fauour of theire heresie is a thinge if not impossible at least verie harde and rare beinge the priuiledge of the catholike churche alone PILK ANTITHESIS 2. The scriptures contayne in themselues a perfect doctrine of saith and good workes necessarie to saluation without testimonie authoritie or tradition of the churche addinge vnto them or bringinge from without them anie other doctrine CHAMP This position is the same in sence if either of them haue anie sence with the former and therefore vainlie is tearmed by you a second Antithesis vnlesse euerie tyme you write a position varyinge a fewe wordes in it but retayninge the same sence you will say it is a newe positiō But to lett this passe your proofes so farr as they make anie thinge against the catholike veritie are to be pondered PILK Proofe 1. 2. Tim. 3. 16. The whole scripture is diuinelie geuen and profitable for doctrine for reproofe for correction for instruction which is in righteousnes that the man of God may be perfectlie instructed in euerie good worke That which perfecteth the man of God to euerie good worke contayneth perfect doctrine of faith and manners without addition of anie othèr but the scriptures do so Ergo. CHAMP It must needes be obstinacie in errour and not ignoraunce as I thinke that maketh you abuse this place For first you cannot be ignorant that the Apostle speaketh there of the scriptures of the olde testament wherewith S. Timothy was acquainted from his infancie which if you will say to contayne a perfect doctrine then is all the newe testament either superfluous or at the least not necessarie Secondlie the Apostle peaketh not of the whole scripture taken together but of euerie parte thereof seuerallie meaninge that euerie parte of scripture is proffitable to teach correct and instruct which is true but nothinge to your purpose And that he speaketh not of the whole scripture in the former sence but in the latter it is manifest For when he wrote this to Timothie the whole scripture which the church nowe hath was not written Lastlie lett it be sayd that he speaketh it of the whole scripture in the former sence yett he saith no more but that it is profitable to teache instruct c. which I easilie graunt you and yett I say your argument drawne from thence is most friuolous as appeareth by the like sett downe before in answere of this of yours wherunto I referre you PILK Proofe 2. Iohn 5. 35. Search the scriptures for in them you thinke to haue eternall life Luke 16. 29. They haue Moises the prophetts lett thē heare them That which teacheth how we may come to eternall life and shunne or escape eternall death contayneth a perfect doctrine of faith and good workes But the scriptures doe soe ergo CHAMP Make your minor proposition this as it should be but the olde Testament doth soe for of the olde testament onlie these places speake as is manifest and your conclusion will serue directlie to exclude the whole newe testament from the perfect rule of faith Fye I am ashamed in your behalfe of such childishnes as you shewe in these arguments PILK Proofe 3. Acts 1. 1. The former treatise haue I made ô Theophilus of all that Iesus began to doe and teach These thinges that Christ did and taught contayne a perfect doctrine but these thinges are written CHAMP Conclude therefore the onlie ghospell of S. Luke contayneth a perfect doctrine Is this your intent noe but blinde malice against the euident truth draweth you into these grosse absurdities If you haue noe care of your soule haue yett for shame some care of your credit and reputation for the gayninge of which you haue trauelled these fower or fiue yeeres to bringe foorthe this miserable heape of vnshapen absurdities A miserable labour I wisse whereby you gaine nothinge but the reputation of an impertinent minister deuoyde of ordinarie iudgment To these fewe testimonies of scripture so miserablie mistaken you adde some passages of the fathers to as good purpose as you did in the former Antithesis These they are PILK Proofe 4. If you be the disciples of the gospell saith Athanasius speake not iniquitie against God but walke in those thinges which are written or donne For if you will speake diuers thinges from these thinges that are written why striue you with vs without them The scriptures are perfect as spoken from the worde of God and his spiritt CHAMP S. Athanasius speaketh of such thinges as are not onlie not directly in scriptures but are against and contrarie to scriptures S. Ireneus saith the scriptures beinge spoken by the spiritt of God are perfect as the thinges spoken by men are not which haue imperfections and therefore are subiect to corrections and amendments You abuse therefore your reader with an equiuocall tearme of perfect PILK Proofe 5. The order of this present tecture teacheth that we must nott adde anie thinge to the diuine precepts for if thou addest or detractest it is a preuarication of the precept Oftentymes when a witnes addeth anie thinge of his owne he spotteth the whole creditt of his testimonie with a lye nothinge therefore thoughe it seeme good must be added And a litle after if S. Iohn hath sayde of his writinge if anie man adde vnto these thinges God shall adde vnto him the plagues that are written in this booke and if anie man shall take away from the worde of this prophecie God shall take away his parte from the booke of life howe much more nothinge is to be added to godds precepts CHAMP That which is taught or commēded by the churche which the scripture commandeth vs to heare is not superadded to gods commandements or precepts but is comprised in them you therefore that will not heare and obey the churche which you are so expressely commaunded to heare euidentlie and damnablie detract from diuine precepts Therefore this authoritie is so farr from proouinge anie thinge to your purpose that it ouerthroweth it rather PILK Proofe 6. O Emperour doost thou demaunde what our faith is Heare it not out of newe papers but out of the bookes of God heare I pray thee the thinges that are written of Christ least vnder them those thinges that are not written should be preached Open thy eares to those thinges that shall speake out of the bookes lifte vppe thy faith vnto God I will not defend any thinge scandalous nor anie thinge that is from without the gospell
are not so direct and full but your aduersaries may delude them and that none such must be expected from you much like the soolishe or at our who vsuallie propoundinge three or fower points to speake of euer forgott one of them and then charged his aduersaries that they had bewitched him So the weakenes of your arguments is imputed to the delusion of your opposites CHAMP A blinde aduersarie that doth not see what he hath to impugne I proposed in my Manuall to shewe the catholicke doctrine to haue true grounde in the holy scriptures and this Parallelist woulde haue such conuinceinge testimonies as may not be deluded by anie false interpretation we shall belike see that he will play the man egregiouslie when it shall come to his turne to prooue his owne doctrine and will bringe such testimonies for himselfe as he requireth of me In the meane tyme lett vs heare the rest of his learned discourse PILK But to your bold and rusticke assertion that noe articles of faith are so fullie prooued out of the scripture but may be deluded by false interpretation the Fathers shall answere nothinge can delude them that search the scripture CHAMP Which of the fathers say this why doe you not name them you putt in the margent Theophilact and Chrisostome but not as authors of this your senceles assertion that none canne be deluded that search the scriptures but you geue a reason thereof out of the fathers let vs heare it PILK For they the scriptures are the candle whereby the theese is espied Chrisostome saith that Manichees and all heretickes deceiue the simple if we haue the sences of our mindes exercised to discerne good and euill we may be able to escape them But howe may our sences become practised by the vse of the scriptures and often readinge CHAMP What is all this to prooue that anie testimonie of scripture may not be deluded by a false interpretatiō that is that a peeuishe or a peruerse aduersarie cannot vnderstande or interprete it otherwise then it is meant These fathers sayinges be they trulie related by you or noe which I list not nowe examine haue this manifest sence that a catholicke man conuersant in scriptures who vnderstandeth them in the sence of the churche cannot be deceiued by heretickes but espieth quicklie their theeuish driftes which is true but farr frō that which you shoulde prooue to witt that noe hereticke can so interprete the testimonie of holy scripture but that he must necessarilie remaine conuinced of his heresie by them PILK S. August auoucheth that all articles of faith are plainlie sett downe in holy scriptures and that so euidentlie that diuers of them neede noe interpretation att all as that Christ must suffer and rise againe the third day and that repentance and remission of sinnes must be preached in his name in all nations begininge at Hierusalem as it needeth noe interpreter this gospell of the kingdome shall be preached in all the worlde and then shall be the end as it needeth noe interpreter yee shall be my witnesses in Hierusalem and in all Iudea Samaria and the whole earth as it needeth noe interpretour suffer both to growe vntill the haruest and when it needeth an interpretour the Lorde himselfe did interprete it whome no man dare contradict Your owne Stapleton affirmeth the Popes Supremacie which is noe meane article of your faith to be fullie and abundantlie prooued out of the scripture CHAMP Conclude out of all these wordes be they trulie related or otherwise for it importeth not to examine them that the testimonies of scripture for anie one pointe of faith may be so conueincinge that they cannott by anie false interpretation be deluded and you shall say something to the purpose otherwise all your wordes are but idle and impertinent bablinge not worthe the readinge PILK But lett it be graunted that the scriptures may be thus deluded as you woulde haue them it neither helpeth you nor hurteth me Sith whatsoeuer you adde to bringe fulnes vnto them whether traditions or councells is equallie subiect if not more to delusion then the written worde of God CHAMP I woulde you wist that I disdaine to take anie thinge of guyfte or graunt of you that pertayneth to the defence of the catholicke truth denie therefore hardelie that which you can without blushinge and graunt me no more then that I extort from you by force of argument and after good deliberation shape me answere to these demandes followinge First is it not a cheefe article of Christiā beleefe that the sonne of God is of equall or one substance and glorie with his father and secondlie is not this article as clearlie and as often sett downe in the scripture as anie other articles of our beliefe And thirdlie did not the Arrians delude by false interpretation all the proofes of the sayde article so that they remained not conuinced by anie of them nor all of them together which of all these three propositions will you denie you will not as I suppose finde anie probable ground to denie anie of them And yett if you graunt them all as they are all most manifestlie true that is clearlie concluded which I affirme and you denie to witt that noe testimonie of holy scripture can be so direct and conuincinge but that it may be eluded by false interpretation You say be it so what doth this either helpe me or hurte you But you are verie shorte sighted or rather starke blinde if you see not this For it helpeth me in that it deliuereth me of the charge or obligation to bringe such testimonie of holy scripture in proofe of the article of our catholicke beleefe as cannot by anie tergiuersation or false interpretatiō be miscōstrued or misunderstoode by you which you would seeme to tye me vnto it hurteth you because it euidentlie sheweth that the sole scriptures are not sufficiēt to conuince anie wilfull or obstinate hereticke in anie article of faith as you affirme it to be The reason that you alleage why it shoulde not helpe me nor hurte you that all criptures may be mis-interpreted is altogether misapplyed prooueinge not that for which it is alleaged but rather disprooeuinge the proposition it selfe But this is a small ouersight in your discourse you say therefore that whatsoeuer is added to the scriptures to interprete them whether traditions or counsells is equallie if not more subiect to delusion whereunto I answere First that neither counsells nor traditions are so subiect to misinterpretatiō as the scriptures are And the reason is because they expresse more particularlie theire owne sence and meaninge then the scriptures ordinarilie doe and consequentlie leaue not so much libertie of misinterpretatiō as they doe Secōdlie I answere that whēsoeuer the testimonie of councells or traditions are drawne into doubte and difficultie as often they are heretickes seruinge themselues of them as they doe of the scriptures they are to be vnderstoode accordinge to the iudgment of the
was decreed and donne was ascribed to Caesar Bibulus was a Cypher So whatsoeuer interpretation the RomaÌ„ churche that is the Pope geueth that must be intertayued the fathers sett behinde the dore This your Cardinall that was present at the counsell vnder Pius the fowerth telleth vs. Whatsoeuer the churche teacheth vs is the expresse worde of God whatsoeuer is taught contrarie to the sence and sentence of the churche is the expresse worde of the diuell CHAMP I maruell whither you will wander at lenght what is all this to the tryinge whether you or we haue the true sence of the scriptures The councell of Trent decreeth expreslie that which you seeme to approoue and yett you are not content with it your example of Caesar and Bibulus in a grammer scholler had been tollerable but in a D. of diuinitie it is too ridiculous And if you dislike the doctrine which you ascribe to Cardinal Hosius why doe you onlie mumble and grumble att it with in your teeth without disproouinge it either by scriptures or fathers But your malice will not permitt you to imbrace the truth nor your courage or strenght serue you to impugne it PILK And another more auncient then he It is no maruelle if the practise of the churche at one tyme interprett the scriptures after this manner and another after that for the vnderstandinge runneth with the practice for that sence which is concurrent with the practice is the quickinge spiritt therefore the scriptures followe church not conuertiblie If then the sentence of the Fathers ruÌ„ne not with the moderne Roman church they are not the messengers of God but in this manes opinion instruments of the diuell CHAMP You still wander out of the way and stray from your purpose But I will yett folowe you thoughe not without some patience Cusanus speaketh expresslie of the vse or sece of scriptures so farr as they pertaine to the rite order or manner of administring the Sacraments and namelie of Communion vnder one or both kindes which rites or Ceremonies because they may be diuerse and changeable without anie preiudice either to the nature of the Sacraments or to the veritie of holy scripture as indeede they are at this day different in the Greeke and Latin church the one consecratinge the holy Eucharist in leauened bredd the other in vnleauened and yett neither of them contrarie to the scriptures they may be altered and changed accordinge as the wisdome of gods churche seeth iust occasion and yett accordinge to the sence and meaning of the holy scriptures which to the churche is neuer vnknowne and this is Cusanus his plaine doctrine which you could not haue been ignorant of if you had read him yourselfe But it is your good nature to make alwaies the worst sence of your authors to deceaue your reader thereby For he speaketh not of scriptures so farr as they containe articles of faith which euer are the same but as they appertaine to matters of practice which may be different accordinge to the diuersitie of circumstances occurringe In settinge downe his wordes you vse your accustomed arte and fraude For his wordes where vppon you would make your cheefe aduantage are these Therefore the scriptures followe the church which was before them and for which the scriptures are not contrarie That is the churche is not for the scriptures Whereas you leauing out some parte of his speache make his wordes to sound that the sence and meaninge of the scriptures followe the vnderstandinge of the churche and not the vnderstandinge of the churche the sence of scriptures but might be contrarie vnto it which neither he nor anie other catholick man euer dreamed of PILK And in verie deed thoughe the Pope hath deuised a solemne oath whereunto your prosessours are sworne that they shall admitte of the holy scriptures accordinge to that sence which the holy mother the churche holdeth and they shall not at anie tyme take or interprett them but accordinge to the vnanimous consent of the fathers yett it is manifest that they doe not onlie leaue the sence which the fathers followe but followe that which noe father within 500. yeres after Christ did euer dreame of CHAMP Seinge the councell of Trent hath decreed as you say and the Pope hath appointed an othe to binde men to followe the sence of the scriptures deliuered by the church and consent of the fathers you haue small reason to say it is manifest that catholikes doe leaue that sence without some manifest proofe of your assertion which I will expect and exact of you vnder paine to esteeme you a rashe and slaunderous impostour In the meane tyme whilst you performe this taske you may for your erudition vnderstand that it is one thinge to giue an interpretation of a place of scripture which the fathers haue not geuen before and another to interprete it contrarie to the vniforme Consent of fathers The churche of god beinge no lesse assisted nowe by the holie ghost which teacheth her all truth accordinge to the infalible promise of our auiour Christe then was the churche within the first 500. yeeres shee is no lesse able to interprete the scripture accordinge to the true meaninge thereof then shee was then yet shee neuer gaâ—e-saith the interpretation of the auncient churche or of the vniforme consent of the holy fathers but lett vs heare howe you prooue your sayinge PILK Your late diuines interpretinge that place there shall be one flocke and one Shephearde forsake the fathers which vnderstande it of Christ and cleaue to the sence of theire mother who will haue it to be the Pope CHAMP Are you a master in Cambridge and knowe not that these two sences may be both true without anie contrarietie neither moderne nor auntient diuines euer vnderstood this place otherwise then of our Sauiour Christ principallie and for himselfe or per excellâ—ntiam But that it is not trulie vnderstood of him to whome he commended his flock which he redeemed as S. Chriâ—ostome saith who therefore is his vicar and vicegerent here in earth and also of his lauful successour in the same charge secondarilie and by participation none but contentious heretikes who will see nothinge in the scriptures contratie to theire errour doe will or canne denie PILK Doe this in remembrance of me that is sacrifice this is nowe the sence of the Roman churche shewe one father that tooke it soe and you shall weare the garland CHAMP Stand to your worde and the garlande will be mine by anie indifferent mans iudgment Heare S. Ireneus who liued aboue 1400. yeres agoe â—uÌ„ qui ex creatura panis est accepit gratias egit dicens Hoc est corpus meuÌ„ caliceÌ„ similiter qui est ex creatura quae est secundum nos suum sanguinem confessus ect noui testamenti nouam docuit oblationcm quam Ecclesia ab Apostoliâ— accipieÌ„s in vniuerso mundo offerâ— Deo When he tooke that which is of the creature bread
and gaue thankes sayinge This is mâ— boddy and likewise the chalice which is of the creature which is with vs hee confessed it to be his bloode and taught a newe oblation ' of the newe lawe which the Church receauinge from the Apostles doth offer it to God thorough the whole worlde These are his wordes you will peraduenture say that here is no mention of these wordes doe this the exposition whereof is nowe in question It is true that here is no expresse mention of them But S. Ireneus epreslie sayinge that our Sauiour Christ when he sayde hoc est corpus meum taught a newe oblation of the newe Testament declareth plainlie in what wordes he taught this oblatioÌ„ For it beinge clear in S. Ireneus his doctrine that our Sauiour Chr. sacrificed his bodie and bloud at that tyme it cannot be called into doubt but he gaue to his Apostles by these wordes doe this power and authoritie to doe the same PILK What father euer conceiued drinke ye all of this to be vnderstoode onlie of priests and not of the people also which nowe is the sence of your holy mother CHAMP No man saith these wordes drinke â—ee all of this so to haue been spoken to the Apostells and consequentlie to priests that the laytie is by diuine precept excluded but that they may if the churche which all that will not be as publicans and heathens are bound to heare thinke good also drinke thereof as they haue donne in some tymes and some places But that these wordes are so spoken to the laytie that they are commaunded to drinke of the Chalice you cannot I thinke shewe anie one father that affirmeth it much lesse the vniforme consent of the fathers And therefore your obiection is altogether impertinent to prooue that we leaue the interpretation of the fathers PILK Againe psalme the. S. God putt all thinges vnder his seete that is of the Pope beastes of the field that is men liuinge vppon the earth fishes of the sea that is soules in purgatorie fowles of heauen that is soules of the blessed which by Canonization the Pope may propose to be adored name anie father if you can that so dalyed and played with godes sacred worde CHAMP Name you anie one chatholike Doctor that geueth this interpretation of this place for the literall sence thereof or if you cannot blush at your impertinencies bringinge the morall or misticall interpretation of one author to prooue that catholikes leaue the vniforme literall interpretation of the scriptures geuen by the fathers yea though this were geuen for the literal sence of this place yet would it not prooue that we leaue the fathers interpretation of the same place one passage of scripture beinge capable of diuers literall interpretations so that your impertinencie appeareth yett more grosse PILK As then the Iewes tyed themselues to theire Rabbines that they must receiue whatsoeuer they teach thoughe they say the right hande is the lefte so haue you captiuated your self in such manner to the sence of the Romane churche that one of yours is not afrayde to teache is anie man haue her interpretation of anie place of scripture thoughe he neither knowe or vnderstande whether or howe it agree with the scriptures yett he hath the worde of god CHAM We doe not imitate the Iewes in adheringe to the churches sence of the scripture as you idlie imagine but we followe therein the expresse doctrine of our Sauiour Christ who tell'eth vs that he that will not heare the churche is to be esteemed as a publican or heathen whose doctrine if you did esteeme more then your owne fancie you would not carpe at that sayinge of Hosius which is true if the gospell itselfe which teacheth the like doctrine be not false PILK As for the fathers we reade theire workes and geue God thankes for theire labours who haue cleared manie obscurities in the scriptures desended the auntient doctrine of the church against the nouelties of heretikes yett with their good leaues we passe by theire interpretations when they are dissonant from the scriptures and willinglie imbrace them when they are consonaÌ„t tryinge theire expositions by them not them by theire expositions and in a worde euer deducing the sence of the scriptures from themselues CHAMP It is well you here acknowledge some obscurities in the scriptures Hereafter if I be not deceiued you will come to denie all such thinge as shall be noted when we come to the place if we goe so farr together The honour you geue here to the fathers workes is no other then you geue to the damnedst heretikes that euer wrote so kinde you are vnto them For that which anie heretike saith conformablie to holy scripture you willinglie imbrace And in one worde you deduce the sence of scriptures from your owne selfe-willed fancie makinge it say what you list to belieue and not belieuinge that which the scriptures say indeede PILK Not without cause is there an healthfull ecclesiasticall Canon vigilantlie constituted whereunto certayne bookes of the prophets and Apostels doe appertaine which we doe not iudge att all and accordinge to which we iudge freelie of other letters of the faithfull or of infidels saith S. August So that beinge vrged with Cyprians authoritie that these which were baptized in heresie or schisme were to be rebaptized he answereth we offer noe wronge to Cyprian when we putt a difference betweene his letters and the Canonicall authoritie of holy scriptures for as he goeth on in the next chapter I doe not accompte of Cyprians letters as Canonicall but I weigh them by the bookes that are Canonicall and what is agreable in them to the authoritie of diuine scriptures I with praise intertayne and what is disagreeinge with his leaue I refuse CHAMP We neither compare nor oppose the fathers workes to the scriptures and therefore these wordes of S Aug. are as impertinentlie alleaged by you as all the rest you haue hitherto sayde If anie one father teach anie thinge contrarie to the scriptures interpreted by the rest of the fathers and the catholicke churche as S. Cyprian of humane errour and not of willfull obstinacie did we receiue not his doctrine in that pointe As S. August in the 32. cap. here quoted by you expresslie saith in these wordes That which bâ—esseâ— cyprian thought of the baptizinge of heretikes and schismatikes I receiue not because the churche doth not receiue it for the which S. Cyprian shedd his blood Followe you S. Aug example in refusinge the fathers interpretation in this manner no man will finde faulte with you PILK This freedome which S. Aug. sheweth we protestants freelie mantaine against the slauerie of your popish spiritts knowinge what is due to men and acknowledginge what is proper to gods holy worde which we euer interprete out of it selfe wherein we followe the direction of the auÌ„tient priests and leuits that read the lawe vnto the people expoundinge the meaninge and gaue the
shall not be to ani purpose in way of answere that anie aduersarie bringe another interpretation of some father vpon the places of scripture alleaged by me beside that which I haue brought For it is not denyed that one and the same place of scripture may be and is often diuerslie vnderstoode not onlie of diuerse fathers but of one and the same father But if he will say anie thinge to the purpose in this kinde he must bringe an interpretation contradictinge that which I haue brought and withall labour rather to prooue his owne doctrine then to impugne that of the catholickes For seeinge it is as all men knowe a farr more easie thinge to impugne anie doctrine thoughe neuer so true then to prooue the same no truth especiallie of faith beinge so euidentlie cleare but that somethinge with shewe of probabilitie may be obiected against it it is not nowe expected that anie aduersarie should stand to answere those authorities of scripture and fathers which I haue alleaged for proofe of the catholicke doctrine or to impugne the same but rather to bring others in proofe of his owne That the iudicious reader may compare our groundes in scripture both together and by the viewe of his owne eie try whether of them be more conformeable to gods sacred worde And wheÌ„ anie one shall haue produced his proofes for protestantisme in like manner as I haue in the behalfe of the catholicke religion if he can so doe yett shall he gaine no more thereby but an euident demonstration against the cheefest groundes of the protestants doctrine that eitherto the true and full decision of controuersies in matter of faith is necessarilie required some other iudgment or tryall then the onlie wordes of holie scripture or else that there is no meanes at all to end matters of controuersies of faith which latter neuerthelesse to affirme is no lesse iniurious to gods wisdome goodnes and power then to say that he hath prouided no sufficient meanes for men to knowe the way to saue their soules For both parties bringinge scriptures for themselues who shall finallie determine whether of them doth applie the sayd scriptures more sincerelie and according to theire true meaninge PILK Your demaundes doe so crosse one another as if your thoughts had been at warres together First you prescribe your aduersarie howe he shall answere you not by bringing another sence of anie father vppon the place of scripture alleaged by you but a coÌ„tradictorie And theÌ„ you forbidde him to answere either scripture or father vrged by you but to fortifie prooue his owne doctrine But you must be coÌ„teÌ„t whether you wil or noe to suffer your aduersary to vnmaske your fraude and to open the vayle of your cunninge dealing both in your doubtfull positions and impertinent allegations by sheweinge the natiue sence of the scriptures euen from the fathers to haue no concurrence with your imaginations but to contradict them and then he will be content to acquainte you with the groundes of his doctrine which either ignorantlie you mistake or purposelie peruert which beinge paralleld with yours the reader may iudge on which side the truth standeth CHAMP Your head is so full of crochets that you imagine my wordes to crosse one another or else you say so onlie to make your lesse heedfull reader to thinke so vppon your creditt I neither prescribe to mine aduersarie how hee should answere mee neither doe I forbidd him to answere either scripture or Fathers alleaged by me as you are pleased to faigne out of your owne braine which notwithstandinge if I hadd donne yett hadd there been no crossinge betwixte those thinges as euerie man may easilie see but I tel him what manner of answere wil be to the purpose and what will not and further I require he should first sett downe his owne beleefe with the proofe thereof out of the scriptures which two thinges doe not crosse one another in anie mans iudgment but yours besides the reasoÌ„ which I geue both for the one and the other is clearlie good and true For your vnmaskinge of my fraude spare it not in gods name and I promise you that if you discouer but one quarter of those blotttes and blemishes in my face that I haue alreadie donne in yours I will hide it for euer that it neuer appeare in publike more But nowe I will hearken howe you wil performe the greate thinges you here promise PILK But this is no parte of your meaninge at all that your reader shoulde trye by the scriptures as the Bereans did and so rest himselfe satisfied CHAMP My meaninge good Sr. is that the reader should searche the scriptures alleaged by me in proofe of the catholicke saith and trâ—e whether he finde them not so as I haue cited them which the Bereans did Whereby he shall finde the chatholicke doctrine to be trulie grounded vppon the holy scriptures and consormeable vnto them as the Bereans did finde S Paules doctrine to be thoughe they were boundâ— to beleeue his preachinge without that research PILK But your drifte is after you haue sett the scriptures togeather by the eares to thrust vppon him the authoritie of the Pope who must finallie determine on which side the sence of the scripture bendeth and then I doubte not but you shall winne the day CHAMP My drifte is to make the reader see that the catholike faith hath true grounde in the holy scriptures and if you or anie other will shewe the same for your newe doctrine the reader must necessarilie see that he must finde somes meanes to knowe to whether side the true sence of the scriptures doth trulie agree And if he finde that the Pope who is cheife head of all those to whom our Sauiour sayde he that heareth you heareth me geueth sentence for the allegations on the catholicke side as you confesse there is no doubte but he will If he haue anie true care of his soule he will beleeue and followe that parte PILK For thus you carrie the matter when both parties haue brought scriptures for themselues out the letter of the scriptures not opposinge the letter to the sence as you falselie say I meane but seekinge and takinge the sence from the letter onlie Is not this your doctrine in this verie section you cannot denie it vnlesse you haue a face to say and vnsay at euerie turne Cast vp therefore once more your owne cardes and see what other Iudge you make of controuersies besides the onlie wordes of scripture Therefore either blushe your selfe or if your face be so brasen that you cannot bidd some other blush for you that you either vnderstande not your owne doctrine or are ashamed to acknoweledge and maintaine it I knowe to what end is all this florishe of wordes to raise vppe a little smoake before your readers eies that you may steale away and leaue the difficultie which you knowe presseth you harde vutouched you shall not scape so I wisse PILK If then
before of Legat which instance you can neuer answere not satisfy and which onlie is sufficient if you were not obstinatly peruerse to make you ashamed to maintaine so senceles a Paradox and so euidentlie contradicted by perpetuall experience in all ages Your last shifte or euasioÌ„ of interpretinge scripture by scripture vnles there be some agreement or certaintie of the scripture interpretinge more then of the scripture interpreted which abstractinge from the iudgmeÌ„t of the churche cannot be had is a meere mockerie and like as if a man would measure one peece of veluett the measure whereof is as vncertaine as that of the former And to conclude this section it beinge in question betweene the catholikes and protestants who is to be iudge of controuersies in faith yea the roote and key of all controuersies which beinge ended or decided all the rest would haue easie decision you affirminge the scriptures to be this iudge and pretend to prooue this by scripture as al other thinges to be beleeued you are bounde by your owne doctrine to shewe it out of scripture which when you shall doe we will yeelde vnto you in all the rest of the tontrouersies betweene vs. But seeinge you can neuer doe this why doe you not yeelde to vs shewinge you out of manifest scripture the authoritie of the churche to decide controuersies You say the church is a partie and therefore no competent iudge But this hauinge been the cauill of all condemned heretikes and as truly alleaged by them as by you this plea is no more receiueable in you then in them And tell me I pray you the kinge is he not partie in all pleas of felonie or treason that are brought into his courtes yes verilie And yett none euer yet thought of anie such plea as to appeale from the iudgment geuen in his name and by his soueraigne authoritie in such cases Albeit the iudgments geuen in his courtes are farr froÌ„ beinge so assuredly iuste equitable as are the iudgments of the church which hath the infallible promise of the holy ghostes assistance in her decisions and determinations You are therefore fast taken which way soeuer you turne your selfe and this inference of myne That if there be no other iudge of controuersies besides the scriptures God hath not prouided sufficient meanes to saâ—e mens soules which you say is without coherence doth nessarilie followe vppon that supposition that heretikes and namelie protestants doe produce scriptures in proofe of theire false doctrine as catholikes doe for theire orthodoxe beliefe if there be no other iudge to decide the controuersie but only the scripture which inference you haue laboured but all in vaine to ouerthrowe as the indifferent reader will easilie iudge MANVLL SECTION 6. Fiftlie that whereas before I can prooue anie point of Christian beleife by scriptures I should first by good order prooue that there is an holy scripture and secondlie in what bookes of the Bible it is contayned yet because neither of these two canne be prooued by scriptures vnlesse we beleeue some scripture without proofe therfore that I may prooue these pointes of faith wherein the Romane Catholicke churche doth differ from the protestants by holy scriptures which our aduersaries vrge me vnto I must necessarily to satisfy theire disorderlie desire proceede disorderlie and suppose that for truth without proofe which requireth most to be prooued I say without proofe if no proofe be good but that which is made out of scripture PILK All questions are not to be disputed of saith Aristotle but only those whereof man desireth a reason that is not worthie of punishment or lacketh sence For if anie demaunde whether God is to be worshipped or our parents to be loued he deserueth stripes or whether snowe be white he lacketh sence This question of yours whether the scripture be gods worde tendeth to Atheisme and deserueth punishment rather then answere CHAMP In the precedent question to auoyde the authority of the churches iudgment expreslie testified in the scriptures you laboured to maintaine this paradox that notwithstandinge scriptures were produced for either partie of anie controuersie yett the controuersie might be fullie ended and decided by the scriptures alone without anie other iudge decidinge or determininge whether partie vsed the true sence and meaninge of the same scriptures Nowe in this section to auoyde the Authoritie of TraditioÌ„s expreslie also taught in the scriptures you goe aboute to maintaine another paradox no lesse improbable to witt that it is so clearlie manifest not only that there is a written worde of God or holie scripture but also in what booke it is contayned that to moue question in either tendeth to Atheisme and deserueth punishment rather then answere lett vs see howe you make good this your paradox PILK But least you shoulde triumphe before the victorie I answere that as in all humane artes there be certain principles which are knowne of theÌ„selues without anie farther demoÌ„stration So the verties that are contained in the Cannon of the Bible are the principles foundations of diuinitie and receiue not authoritie by other thinges whereby they may be demonstrated saith Cameracensis CHAMP Ignorance in the rudimeÌ„ts of Philosophie maketh you abuse your tearmes egregiouslie For what principles of artes or sciences I pray you are those that are beleeued for themselues none certainlie For the principles of all naturall knowledge are either euidentlie knowne by the light of nature and not beleeued or they are beleeued for the authoritie of a higher knowledge and not beleeued for themselues The verities contayned in the Bible are beleeued not for themselues but for the authoritie of God reueilinge them who onlie is truth it selfe and beleeued for himselfe of whome and from whome they receiue authoritie and haue it not of themselues as you falselie affirme But you say they cannot be demonstrated by other principles It is true for â—â—â—e but the phreneticall or phanaticall Manicheis did desire or expecte demonstration in matter of faith Which as S. August saith is grounded vppon authoritie as knowledge is vppon reason we demaunde therefore of you some authoritie whereby we may reasonablie beleeue the verities contayned in the Bible to haue been reueiled by God without which authoritie we cannot securelie beleeue them to be gods worde PILK Then if the scriptures be principles as it is confessed on both sides it followeth that they are immediate indemonstrable as al other principles are in theire scieÌ„ces where of they are principles but these more theÌ„ others because they are primae veritatis And as the first good for it selfe is to be loued so the first truth for it selfe is to be beleeued saith Aquinas And therefore it is so farr from beinge requisit to prooue the scriptures that S. Aug. saith they are not to be hearde who shoulde say howe doost thou knowe these bookes to be ministred vnto mankinde by the spiritie of the onlie and most true God for this thinge is
christian I woulde aâ—ke you what you esteeme of your father in reformation Martin Luther whome some of his disciples as you knowe stile the seconde Elias the fifte Euangelist the second or thirde person in heauen after Christe who with a greate troope of his schollers doth not onlie open his mouth to call into question diuers of the Apostles writinges but absolutelie casteth them out of the Canon will you censure him to be noe christian if you doe you shall be a cursed childe of a more cursed father Yea what will you thinke of your selfe and all the rest of your crewe who cast out of the Canon so manie of those bookes which S. Aug. whose authoritie you cite alwayes esteemed to be canonicall scripture See whether you haue not pronounced sentence with your owne mouth against your selfe and condemned your selfe to be noe Christian If you shoulde eate noe bread till you quitt your selfe of this indictment I dare vndertake to finde you bread for sixe pence so longe as you liue Howsoeuer hereby at least it is cleare that the scriptures are not such principles of our faith as beinge not prooued to be written by the holy Ghost may be doubted of and therefore necessarilie require to be sufficientlie prooued before they can be groundes of other articles of our faith WheÌ„ you or anie for you shall solue this argument I shall esteeme you not vnworthy of a doctours cap. S. Aug. hath good reason to say that no Christian dare to open his mouth against the scriptures receiued by the catholicke churche For so shoulde he be worthyly esteemed as a publican and heathen by the testimonie of our Sauiour Christ himselfe And therfore is Luther and Caluine with theire viperous generation worthilie censured as heretikes thoughe they had no other errours but that of reiectinge with obstinacie the canonicall scriptures That which you bringe out of Clemens were it as you sett it downe is nothinge to your purpose For we knowe the scriptures to be indemonstrable by reason but yett to be prooued by authoritie as all other articles of fayth are And nowe looke ouer once more your cardes and weigh well with your selfe whether this proposition admitted for true which is one of your principles That nothinge is to be beleeued that is not prooued by scriptures whether I say the Manuall doth not directlie conuince the protestants who professe that they cannot prooue the scriptures to be scriptures to beleeue nothinge at all MANVALL SECTION 9. But nowe hauinge shewed the absurditie of theire doctrine in this point I will ioyne with them in the scriptures as they themselues doe desire obseruinge this methode First I sett downe the Catholicke Romane beleefe in direct and plaine positions then I bringe in proofe of it one two or more places of holy scriptures citinge the auncient vulgar translation and often tymes I add the testimonie of some auncieÌ„t father of the first fiue hundreth yeeres vnderstandinge such scriptures as I cite in the same sence and meaninge that I cite them for Furthermore those fewe places of scripture which seeme to sounde directlie against the catholicke faith I shewe in breefe howe they are to be vnderstoode And last of all I putt downe the position contradictorie to the Catholicke doctrine to the end that the indifferent reader be he catholicke or otherwise may more easily iudge whether doctrine hath better grounde in holy scriptures And further that he that will impugne this treatise may see what he hath to prooue if he will prooue anie thinge to purpose PILK Zebull iudged men to be shadowes of mountaines and you Christian verities nouell absurdities But as Nicomachus the painter answered a skilfull felowe that iudged the picture of Helen drawne by Zeuxes not to be beautifull take myne eyes saith he thou wilt thâ—nke her to be a goddesse So if you looke with spiritual eies you woulde easilie conceiue them to be diuine verities which you imagine to be palbable absurdities For lacke whereof you proceede to beate your aduersaries with theire owne weapons of holy scriptures and you tell them howe you will marshall your forces CHAMP Zebull if you say true imagined men to be shaddowes and you contrariwise imagine shaddowes to be men I doubt not but if I shoulde take your eies to looke vppon your worke I shoulde thinke as you doe a â—rogge to be as faire as Diana You say I proceede to beate my aduersaries with their owne weapons But the scriptures are not mine aduersaries weapons but as they steale them to impugne the truth with as theeues doe true mens weapons PILK First you will sett downe your saith in direct positions and that you haue donne as streight as a Rams horne CHAMP Marke you the crookednes and discouerit that others may see it besides your selfe PILK Secondly you will prooue it by holy scriptures which you cite to as good purpose as the deuill did against Christ. CHAMP Note you the impertinencies when they occurre and discouer them that other men may see them as well as your selfe PILK Thirdlie you will produce them in the auncient vulgar translation no maruell for that hangeth betweene the greeke and the Hebrue as Christ did betweene the two theeues in your friendes opinion whereas it hath been the Cameryne that hath vented from it manie of your errours Hence you haue marriage to be a Sacrament because your translation readeth magnum hoc SacramentuÌ„ and in greeke it is Mysterion Hence almes to be meritorious because huiusmodi sacrificijs promeritur Deus and in the greeke it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hence definitions of councels to proceede froÌ„ the holy ghost because in this corrupte false version it is read the holy spiritt shall suggest vnto you all thinges that I will say whereas it is in the originall that I haue sayde Infinite almost are the additions detractions deprauations wherewith this sweet translation of yours hath corrupted the fountaynes That Isodore Clarius woundered at the negligence of learned men that haue not purged it from these inumerable errours wherewith it swarmeth and wherein himselfe had obserued and rectified eight thousande places and yett this is the apparrell wherein you will sett before vs the holy scriptures CHAMP Take you here the counsell the painter gaue to the vnskilfull censurer of Zeuxis worke which you spake of not farr before and looke vppon the vulgar translation with S. Ambrose S. Aug. S Hierome and S. Gregories eyes with the rest of all the Latine fathers who liued a thousande yeeres before your heresie was hatched whose iudgments are of more authoritie then manie Clarius and you will finde it to be intire perfect and good Your exceptions against it with manie moe are alreadie answered by Bellarmine which answeres shall stande for good till you confute them This is all your learning to repeate olde ouerworne obiections and to conceale their answeres a greate peece of witt I wisse PILK Fowerthlie you will adde the testimonie of some
indifferent reader may iudge whether the positions sett downe in the Manuall vnder the title of protestants positions be not truly theirs Manuall protestant positions All articles of faith are so expresselie contained in scriptures as out of them onlie full proofe may be made thereof All articles of faith are at least so contained in holy scriptures as without any testimonie or authoritie of the churche or traditions they may thence be plainly and distinctlie deduced These are the positions in the Manuall in this first controuersie vnder the title of protestant positions which you say are not acknowledged by them And yett if I vnderstande your wordes you admitte them neither can you iuâ—lâ—e denie them as I sayde before but lett vs heare what you say for your selfe PILK They say not that all articles of faith are expresselie sett downe in holy scriptures but either expressely or analogicallie and so they haue a full proofe out of them CHAMP Compare this position with that sett downe by me in the first place and see wherein they differ Only you make the first parte of your position absolute as if it had been so set downe by me but this is your owne fraude and deceipte For I made it not absolute but modall or comparatiue as appeareth by the thinge it selfe The position therefore sett downe by me is yours and therefore to be prooued out of the scriptures as the position it selfe requireth â—herein if you fasle your position will be conuinced to be false and your faith accordinglie PILK Secondlie they admitte of the testimonie of the churche both concerninge articles of faith and the scriptures themselues First to discerne true from false Secondlie publiklie to preache them Thirdlie to interpret and expounde them but euer accordinge to the scriptures themselues without anie addition of her owne either of sufficiencie or perfection vnto them CHAMP That is in good speach they admitt the testimony of the churche so farr as it contradicteth not theire errours Or they admitte of it not to be iudged by it for so all disputes woulde quicklie haue an end but to iudge it themselues for so they knowe they may wrangle eternallie PILK Here then is the difference that the papists say the churche addeth sufficiencie to the scriptures and fulnes The protestants say shee addeth none but sheweth that which is in it The papists say shee brought light vnto them The protestants say shee bringeth none but declareth and manifestesh that which it hath in it selfe This then is theire doctrine CHAMP The catholikes doe teache and beleeue that the churche of God hath infallible authoritie to declare what bookes are holy scripture and also to deliuer the true sence and meaninge thereof neither of which the scriptures do performe by themselues and yett are they both necessarie if not to euerie ChristiaÌ„ in particular yett to the whole churche in generall They doe not teach or beleeue that the churche addeth anie truth or verity to the scriptures which they immediately haue from God himselfe whose word and reuelation they containe but shee declareth vnto vs infalliblie what are the verities contayned in them To which beleefe and doctrine you seeme to come verie neere in your last wordes if you were constant therein But you say and vnsay at euerie turne Nowe lett vs heare the positions which you say the protestants acknowledge in this controuersie PILK ANTITHESIS All truth concerninge faith and good workes necessarie vnto saluation is sufficientlie and fullie deliuered vnto vs in the holy scriptures CHAMP Seinge you voluntarilie enter combate why doe you not obserue the conditions prescribed It was required that in case you woulde impugne the catholike position sett downe and prooued in the Manuall as hitherto you haue laboured to doe you should prooue by expresse scriptures the contradictorie which in that case must necessarilie be yours and not to frame vnto your selfe another which may stand with that you impugned beinge like a shooe that fitteth euerie foote This I say because the position sett downe here by you vnderstoode with these two restrictons is not denyed of anie catholike The first is that it include not the scriptures themselues but suppose them as beleeued The second that it speake onlie of truthes or articles necessary to euerie mans saluation For these are fewe and sufficientlie expressed in holy scripture Your position vnderstoode in this mannet hath noe aduersarie and therefore needeth not your feeble and weake proofes Neuertheles because your proofes seeme to suppose a further meaninge in your position to witt that all thinges whatsoeuer without exception or restriction are to be beleeued either by euerie man in perticular or all men in generall are fullie sett downe in holy scripture which is opposite to the catholike position of the Manuall I will examine your proofes and try what weight they beare PILK Proofe of the protestants position Deuteronomie 4. 2. yee shall not adde vnto the worde which I commaunde you neither shall yee detracte from it that yee may keepe the commaundements of the Lorde your God which I coÌ„maunde you Argument That whereunto nothing must be added nothinge detracted contayneth a perfect and full doctrine of faith and manners such is the scripture ergo CHAMP What will you vnderstand by the word which God heere commaundeth onlie the fiue bookes of Moises which then were onlie extant If you vnderstande it so as trulie you cannott otherwise what will you say to all the reste of the bookes both of the ould newe testament written since were they added against gods commandement you will feare to say so What then will this place serue you for to make a poore shewe of some proofe out of scripture to deceaue your lesse skilfull reader and for noe other purpose But peraduenture you will contend that it ought to be vnderstoode of all that which God shoulde speake aswell after as before and so to comprehend the whole scripture This sence though not verie probable I am content to accept of that you may see I doe not deale niggardlie with you To your argument therefore I say you iugle somethinge in itt but not cunninglie If you woulde conclude anie thinge out of this place of scripture you must say in your minor but such is the word of God And then the conclusion will be directlie against your selfe who detracteth from gods worde both written denyinge manie and sundrie bookes of holy scripture and also vnwritten reiectinge all traditioÌ„s which the scriptures themselues commaunde vs to receiue And so haue you concluded your selfe a manifest transgressour of gods lawe and commaundement When you shall answere sufficientlie this argument I will pay you a fee worthe your doctors Cappe PILK Proofe 2. Prou 30. 5. 6. Euerie worde of God is pure he is a shielde to them that put theire trust in him adde you nothinge vnto his worde least he reprooue thee and thou be founde a lyar CHAMP Therefore what Therefore all articles of faith are fullie
it necessarie to beleeue that they wrote the wordes thereof and then it is not to the purpose to proue your positioÌ„ which is of thinges to be beleeued and not of wordes But if by the creede you vnderstande the matter of it and thinges to be beleeued then it is vntrue that the Apostles writte it not and all thinges contayned therein which thinges haue continued in our churche as the obiect of our faith not for tradition onlie as you ignorantly say but because they are recorded in the holy scripture CHAMP Shewe me then in theire writings I meane the Apostles the discention of our Sauiour into hell and the catholicke churche which Luther loued so little that he turned it the christian churche Thoughe we beleeue not onlie the parcells of the creede but the whole creede together And that the Apostles made it which is no where expressed in scripture And if I say ignorantlie that the creede as it is composed by the Apostles and therefore receiued and beleeued of all christians in al ages hath continued in the church vntill this day by tradition only shewe it me written in the scriptures and I will confesse myne ignorance and correct my wordes But seeinge you cannot performe that I tell you that you impudentlie affirme that it hath other continuance then by tradition opposinge tradition to the canonicall scripture onlie Manuall Proofe 7. They taught Baptisme administred by heretikes to be good and therefore S. Aug. speakinge thereof saith Manie thinges which are not found in the Apostles writinges nor in the latter councells yet because they are obserued by the whole churche are beleeued to be deliuered and recommended by none but by theÌ„ Againe he saith There are manie thinges which the whole church doth hold and therefore are well beleeued to be commaunded by the Apostles albeyt they be not found written PILK That Baptisme ministred by heretikes was preached by the Apostles but not written hath as much truth as the rest For whereas Cyprian hath taught that Baptisme of heretikes was not good and therefore to be reiterated S. Aug. crosseth him and prooueth the contrarie out of the ghospell and out of the wordes of the Apostle Ephe. 4. And this is so frequent with that father that it maketh me thinke you haue not read him of that argument but gleaned out of others that might serue your turne So pâ—lpably are you deceiued to thinke that S. August conceiued this to be an vnwritten tradition without ground of scripture for thus he writeth That I may not seeme to prooue it by humane arguments I will bringe foorth certayne documents out of the scripture And whereas Cyprian had taught that for proofe of this we must haue recourse vnto the fountayne of Apostolicall tradition that is the scriptures S. Aug approoueth it and saith that the Apostles deliuered that there is one God one Christe one baptisme and therefore baptisme of heretikes is firme and not to be repeated When then he saith of this as of other thinges that they are not founde in the Apostles writinges nor in latter councells c. And there be manie thinges which the whole churche doth holde and therfore are well beleeued to be commended by the Apostles albeyt they be not found written Which wordes are in his 2. booke contra Donatistas cap. 7. and not lib. 5. cap. 27. as you cited them His meaninge is they are not written in so manie wordes but the groundes of them are layd in the scriptures and thence necessarilie they may be concluded This is playne out of Aug. for hauinge vttered these wordes vrged by you when he draweth to an ende of this disputation he thus concludeth It might suffice that our reasons beinge so often repeated and diuerselie debated and handled in disputinge and the documents of holy scripture beinge added and so manie testimonies of Cyprian concurringe By this tyme I thinke the weaker sorte of men vnderstande that the baptisme of Christe cannot be violated by the peruersnes of the partie that geueth or receiueth it Loe howe be bringeth documents out of scripture to prooue that the peruersnes of heretikes peruerteth not the baptisme of Christe and therfore baptisme ministred by hereticks is good CHAMP Is it be written by the Apostles that the Baptisme of heretikes is sufficient and not to be reiterated why doe not you shewe the place and confound your aduersarie But you had rather impudeÌ„tlie affirme an vntruth theÌ„ ingeniously acknowledg a cleare veritie As thoughe if it hadd been so clearly fully taught in holy scripture as you are bound to shewe it S. Cyprian who had a much iudgmeÌ„t to discerne it as you att least and noe lesse good will to acknowledge it nor yett lesse industrie and diligence to seeke it could not he haue esped it And howsoeuer here you wilfullie wrangle out of S. Aug as though he acknowledged not the Baptisme of heretikes by tradition yett two pages after you in expresse wordes confesse that he saith neither baptisme of infants nor by heretikes are written in scripture And though you interpret him both here and there to meane that they are not founde written in so manie wordes but that the groundes notwithstandinge from whence they may be necessarilie concluded are layd in the scriptures yett is this your glosse meerelie voluntarie clearlie against S. August meaninge and common sence Or iâ— not why doe not you frame some argument which by necessary consequence may conclude out of the groundes layd in scripture abstractinge from the authoritie of the churche and tradition either of these two articles But it is more easie for you to affirme twentie positions then to prooue one Manuall catholike position 2. The Catholike churche doth and ought to beleeue those thinges which the Apostles deliuered by worde of mouth without writinge in the same degree of faith with those that are written PILK For answere vnto this lett the iudicious reader obserue that it is the vsuall doctrine of Papists to teach that all points of Christian beliefe which are necessarie for all men were publikelie preached by the Apostles to all men and recorded in the register of holy scripture But besides these there were diuers thinges committed to prelats and priests that were more perfect men which they taught them a parte accordinge to that which S. Paule saith we speake wisdome amonge them that are perfect And these be theire traditions which they would haue equallie credited with the scriptures Nowe this was the verie doctrine of the auncient heretikes Valentinians Cerintheans Marcionists c. For abusinge the scripture and aduancinge traditioÌ„s grounded on the same foundation as the fathers tell vs. And these be thinges which the protestants denie to be equall with the scriptures for they graunt that the Apostles in the beginninge of theire embassage write not the whole doctrine which they preached but deliuered parte by worde of mouth and parte by writinge howbeit they consigned the Canon of the scripture and
them by whom the Ghospell came to vs which first they preached and after by the will of God deliuered vnto vs in the holy scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith CHAMP If you had taken but ordinarie heede what you wrote you woulde not haue sayde that my position hath anie opposition with S. Ireneus who sayth not that the Apostles wrote all they preached as he should haue don to make your antithesis good but onlie that they wrote the same gospell which they preached and not a different or contrarie doctrine to their preachinge as some prophane heretickes of whom he maketh there mentioÌ„ impudentlie taught which sence of this Father your selfe acknowledge pag. 5. But if you will needes make this consequence they wrote that which they preached ergo they wrote all that they preached as you must argue if you will make anie antithesis betwixt my position and S. Ireneus his doctrine I will say that either you haue forgotten your logicke or that you neuer had anie For to make or inferre an vniuersall proposition of an indefinite in nâ—n necessarijs is most absurde as you shall see by these examples Homo est albus vel caluus ergo omnis homo est a â—us vel caluus or the kinge writeth that he speaketh and thinketh therefore he writeth all he speaketh or thinketh Moreouer of S. Ireneus his iudgment concerninge traditions you might haue informed your selfe by the chapter immediatelie followinge that which you cite where he hath these wordes When we appeall to that tradition which descendinge from the Apostles is by the succession of priestes in the Churche preserued they to wit heretikes reiect Traditions PILK The scriptures are darke and difficult to be vnderstoode and all articles of faith are not clearelie layde downe in them All thinges are cleare in the holy scriptures to them that come to them with a godlie minde CHAMP The position of the Manuall which you ayme at as this All places of holy scripture containinge articles of faith the obstinate misbeleefe whereof is damnable are not easie to be vnderstoode but require some rule to be interpreted by Nowe if you will maintaine this position to be opposite to S. Epiphanius you must graunte that your doctrine is opposite to him which I euidentlie shewe in this manner In the roll of positions which you say are forgéd by me against you and are sett downe by you in the next page of your booke This in the second All places of holie scripture conteininge articles of faith are easie to be vnderstoode which proposition if you will reiect as none of yours as you doe in the place mentioned then must necessarilie the contradictorie proposition which is the same with mine here carped at by you and wich you say is opposite to S. Epiphanius be yours and then doe you contradict S. Epiphanius if you will say that I doe Or if you will confesse the truth and acknowledge this latter proposition to be yours as doubtles it is why doe you then charge me with forgeinge it against you Accorde your owne sayinges and then shall I knowe what to answere vnto In the meane while you are vnfortunate to stumble so grosselie if contradictinge your selfe in so shorte a space may be termed onlie stumblinge in the verie entrance of your dispute My position shall be shewed agreeable both with holy Scriptures and auncient Fathers in due place And as for your authoritie alleaged out of S. Epiphanius if it be in him as I knowe noâ— whether it be or noe for it is cited by you so at large that I cannot finde it it may haue this true sence and meaninge That all thinges are cleare in scriptures to such as come to them with this minde to vnderstande them as the catholicke Churche and the true pastors thereof interpret them Which sayinge hath noe contrarietie at all with my position For I doe not say that the scriptures are harde to be vnderstoode by the churche or that they neede another rule to be interpreted by then the Churches vnderstandinge and interpretation PILK The sence of the holy scriptures geuen by the churche is vnfalliblie true as are also the definitions and declarations of faith deliuered by the same and euerie one is bounde vppon his damnation not to reiect the iudgment therof Who knoweth not that the holie scriptures as well of the old as newe testament is contayned in certaine boundes and so is to be preferred before all the latter writinges of Bishoppes that noe man ought to doubte att all or call in question whether it be true or right whatsoeuer is written therein when as the writinges of Bishopes that haue been or are written after the canon confirmed may lawfullie be reprehended both by the wiser speache of anie that is more skilfull in that matter and by grauer authoritie of other Bishopps and wisdome of the learned and also by councells if they haue in anie point wandred from the truth and euen nationall and prouincial councells doe giue place to those that are collected out of the whole vniuersall Christian worlde and generall counsells themselues are often amended the former by the latter as often as by tryal experience the thinge was opened that before was shutt or knowne that was hidd without anie swellinge of sacrilegious pride or stiffe necke of arrogancie or contention of deadlie enuie with holy humilitie with Catholicke peace with Christian charitie CHAMP You doe greatlie abuse your readers patience farceinge your booke with such impertinencies And you doe no lesse wronge the holy Father S. August bringinge his wordes as coÌ„tradictinge the churches infallibilitie in matters of faith and interpretation of the scriptures which he so often and so euidently restifieth But to conuince you of wilfulnes in abusinge S. Aug. it shall suffice to sett here before you that onlie Testimonie of the same holy Father which is expressed in the Manuall in proofe of this position which you would haue him to contradict His wordes there sett downe are these Although noe example is brought out of holie scripture of this thinge that the Baptisme of heretickes is sufficient yett doe we followe the truth of the same scripture in this point whilst we doe that which pleaseth the whole Churche which the authoritie of scriptures doth commend And because the holie scripture cannot deceaue whosoeuer feareth to be deceaued by the obscuritie of these questions letâ— him consulte therevpon with the churche which without all doubte the scriptures doe shewe Iudge nowe with your selfe whether you or I speake more conformablie to S. Aug. That which you alleage out of him of the doctrine of particular Bishopps or councells compared with the doctrine of holy scripture is altogether impertinent to your purpose That which he saith of vniuersall councells that the former may be ameÌ„ded by the latter is vnderstoode of matters pertayninge to manners or practise which often are changed accordinge as circumstances
poore stuffe that were your cloake doubled with no better lyninge you would feele the winter could noe lesse then if your cloake were simple but lett vs see peraduenture you haue better stuffe behynde PILK That way which Christ and his Apostles tooke to conuince heretikes is a full and direct way but they conuinced them by scripture only The Saduces that were heretikes amongst the Iewes denyinge the resurrection werethus by Christ putt to silence so were the false Apostles that vrged Circumsion by the councell at Hierusalem and thus Apollo confuted the Iewes sheweinge by the scriptures that Iesus was Christe CHAMP These examples of Christe and the Apostles doe clearlie conuince your affirmatiue wherein is our issue to be false For otherwise all these that hearde theÌ„ should haue been conuerted from theire errours which they were not And assuredlie if you take those places of scripture vsed by our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles to be of themselues conuincinge abstractinge from the authoritie of those that vsed theÌ„ you will conuince your selfe to be a madde man and not a doctor of diuinitie The way therfore that our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles then vsed and which all the Doctors of gods churche haue euer since exercised to conuince heretikes by scripture is doubtles most conuenient and good which is not in controuersie betweene you and me but onlie whether it be such as by noe false interpretation it may be auoyded deluded or frustrated of the effect which these verie examples brought by you and the experience of all times doe demoÌ„strate to be true against you And this might fullie suffice for that which you add but least you may complaine of your wordes concealed I will sett them downe PILK Lastlie the fathers thus taught that heretickes might be conuinced solelie by the scriptures Take from the heretikes their heathenishe learninge that by scriptures onlie they must prooue theire opinions they cannot stande saith Tertullian See howe nere vnto danger they be that refuse to exercise themselues in scripture for of them onlie the iudgment of this triall must be knowne CHAMP Howe impertinent alwayes you are you shoulde prooue that heretikes may be conuinced by scriptures onlie and you bringe Tertullian to prooue that heretikes cannot prooue theire errouis out of scriptures speakinge of one particular heresie against the resurrectio which article of the resurrectioÌ„ being not to be prooued by naturall discourse but out of scripture onlie therefore those heretickes that neglect to reade them were in daunger to continue in theire errour But if you make anie esteeme of Tertullian his iudgment in this matter see his wordes cited a litle before and iudge your selfe whether he fauour your affirmatiue or my negatiue more PILK Athanasins writinge to Serapion against thâ—se heretikes that taught the holy ghost to be a creature chargeth him to learne onlie these thinges that are in the scriptures For the documents contayned therein aboute this pointe are of theÌ„selues sufficient and doe satisfie S. Aug Chargeth the Donatists to prooue theire churche onlie by the canonicall scriptures and remouinge all other thinges to demonstrate theire churche if they were able not in the wordes and rumors of Affricanes not in the councelles of the Bishops not in the letters of anie disputers not in signes and lyinge miracles because we are forewarned fore-armed against these thinges by the worde of God but in the prescripte of the lawe the predictions of the prophetts in the songes of the psalmes in the voyce of the Shephearde himselfe in the Sermons and labours of the Euangelistes that is in all the canonicall authorities of the holy booke Innocent i. bishoppe of Rome saith that by the sole testimonie of holy scriptures the heresie of Pelagius might be refuted The testimonie of the fathers are infinite in this kinde which to auoyde prolixitie I passe ouer and conclude with that charge of Constantine to the fathers of the Nicene councell where Arrianisine receiued its deathes wounde to satisfie the sheepishe obiection of seelie Legat the bookes of the Euangelists and the Apostles together with oracles of the auncient prophets doe plainlie teach vs what we are to thinke of diuine thinges or as Bellarmine readeth it of the nature of God Therefore layinge a side all contention let vs out of the diuine inspired scriptures take the resolution of these thinges that are in question CHAMP Manie wordes nothinge to the purpose Which of all these testimonies be they trulie related by you which I list not examine because they are nothinge to the purpose or of those infinite others which you more prudentlie omitte then you haue related these say that the heretikes may be so conuinced by onlie scripture that they cannot delude them by anie false interpretation which is our issue as you knowe The charge of Constantine as you ridiculouslie terme it doth sufficientlie euict my cause against you so wiselie you pleade for your selfe and so solidelie you satisfie the obiection of seelie Legat which you esteeminge sheepishe shewe your selfe to be more then a sheepe in not soluinge it for which of all the testimonies out of the bookes of the Euangelists and Apostles or the oracles of the auncient prophets did so conuince the Arriaus that they had not some answere for it not one surelie Therefore all these wordes of yours containe nothinge but an argument of your wilfull obstinacie against an euident truth And therefore to conclude my defence in this issue I will aske you whether you are conuinced of the real persence by these wordes hoc est corpus meum or of the power to remitt sinnes by these quorum remiseritis â—eâ—cata remittuntur eâ—s or of the infallibilitie of the churche by these quae est coâ—umna firmamentum veritatis to omitte the rest if you say you are not conuinced as by your profession I coniecture you will say then I will further aske you what more cleare testimonies of scripture you canne bringe for anie one article of our faith and because I knowe you cannot bringe anie more direct or pregnant I therefore chalenge coniure you euen by the iudgment of your patron of Canterbury whose arbitrement I doe not refuse in this cause either to confesse your selfe conuinced in these points of Catholicke doctrine or to confesse that heretickes cannot be conuinced by onlie scriptures and so shall I gaine mine issue against you Which beinge euicted the note of the Manual remaineth entire and vntouched notwithstandinge all your tedious and prolixe wranglinge against it MANVALL SECTIO 3. Secondlie that thoughe the protestants may alleage texts of holy scripture for the proofe of some poinctes of theire doctrine yett that alone is not sufficient to make it true both because the same poinctes are prooued false by other places of scripture and also for that all heretickes haue euer brought scripture for theire heresie and none more apparant or frequent then the damned and
there appeare a â—arre in the scriptures that some of them are opposed to others as it fell out betweene the auncient Bishoppes and the Arrians betweene the Catholikes and Donatists betweene Pelagians and godlie teachers and nowe betweene you and vs that on both sides they are produced a iudge must be sought for to reconcile them Who is that not a Christian for he is partie on the one side or the other not a pagan he knoweth not the misteries of Christianitie not a Iewe for he is an enemie to Christian Baptisme on Earth there can be founde noe iudgment saith Optatus But why doe we knocke at heauen when we haue in the Gospell his testament for here earthlie thinges may be compared to heauenlie See howe we may come to the true sence not by seekinge vnto the Pope not by restinge vppon determinations of councels not by settinge on Traditions but by flyinge vnto the Testament For as the same Optatus goeth on Christ hath dealt with vs as an earthlie Father who hauinge manie children ruleth them all so longe as he liueth noe testament so longe is necessarie euen so Christ so longe as he was present vppon earth althoughe nowe he be not wantinge gaue in charge vnto the Apostles whatsoeuer for the tyme was necessarie But as an earthlie father feelinge himselfe in the consines of death fearinge after his decease his children will contendâ— and breake peace calleth witnesses and from his dyinge breast draweth his will into lastinge tables and if there fall out anie contention amonge the brethren they goe not to his tombe but seeke his testament and so he that quietly resteth in his tombe speaketh still from the tables as if he were aliue He whose testament we haue is in heauen therefore lett his will be sought for in his gospell as in a testament for these thinges which presentlie yeâ— doe he foresawe that yee would doe CHAMP Because these sayinges of Optatus haue the same meaninge with that of S. Aug which imediatlie followeth it shall there appeare howe litle they serue your turne Here are onlie to be noted these wordes of his On earth there is founde noe iudge By which wordes he excludeth not all iudgment vppon earth for so should he exclude the testament also it selfe but he excludeth all earthlie or humane iudgment as vnfitt and vnable to decide differencies of faith of which sorte the iudgment of the churche is not For shee is the piller and ground of truth perpetuallie assisted by the holy Ghost which teacheth and suggesteth to her all truth PILK S. August runneth the verie same course almost vseth the same wordes as if he had taken them out of Optatus we are brethren saith he why doe we striue our father died not intestate he hath made a testament and so died men doe striue aboute the goods of the dead till the testament be brought foorth when that is brought they yeeld to haue it opened and read the iudge doth hearken the counsellours be silent the crier biddeth peace all the people are attentiue that the wordes of the dead man may be read and heard he lyeth voide of life and feelinge in his graue and his wordes preuaile Christe doth sitt in heauen and is his testament gainsayde open it lett vs reade it we are brethren why doe we striue let our mindes be pacified our father hath not lefte vs without a testament he that made the testament is liuinge for euer he doth heare our wordes he doth knowe his owne worde why doe we striue CHAMP S. Aug by these plaine wordes of the spalme Reminisâ—entur conuertentur ad Dominum omnes fines terrae Et adorabunt in conspectâ— eius vniuersae familiae genti 〈…〉 as by the confessed testament of the father prooueth that the Donatists haue noe right to the inheritance of the churche which they contrarie to the testament of God expressed in the psalme say was onlie in a corner of the world amongst them Who notwithstandinge were not come to that degree of seÌ„clesnes as to say the church was inuisible as the protestants doe Iustlie therefore did S. Aug prouoke the Donatists in this pointe to the tryall of the testament as also the catholikes doe the protestantes in the pointe of the reall presence and diuers others Which tryall notwithstandinge is not sufficient where either scripture is opposed to scripture or it is not agreed vppon which is the scripture it selfe as it happeneth betweene the catholikes and protestants as shall â—ore amplie appeare by and by PILK And S. Ambrose more auncient then both to Gratian the Emperour Beleeue not Emperour our Argument and our disputation let vs aske the Scriptures let vs aske the Apostles let vs aske the Prophets let vs aske Christ what shoulde I adde more let vs aske the Father of whose honour they say they are Iealous CHAMP Sr. you alwaies speake besides the purpose The question betweene you and me is not whether the scriptures vnderstoode in the sence of the church are not sufficient to decide anie controuersie in faith and namelie that whereof S. Amb. disputeth which is not denyed vnto you but whether the scriptures lefte vnto the interpretation of either party contendinge are a sufficient iudge to end all controuersies in faith In which question I defende the negatiue and you the affirmatiue if you will yett contend anie more These testimonies therefore of the fathers aswell of S. Ambrose as those that went before and also that followe are alleaged beside the question and altogether impertinentlie as all the rest of your sayinges for the moste parte are PILK A Gentile cometh and saith I woulde be a Christian but I knowe not which side to cleaue vnto manie dissentions are amonge you and I cannot tell which opinion to holde euerie one saith I speake the truth and the scriptures on both sides are pretended so that I knowe not whom to beleeue To this Chrisostome replyeth trulie this maketh much for vs for well might you be troubled if we should say we rely vppon reason but seeinge we take the scriptures which are so true and playne it will be an easie matter for you to iudge if anie consent vnto them he is a Christian if anie goe against them he is farr from this rule CHAMP This allegation of S. Chrisost is not onlie impertinent as all the rest are but fraudulent and proceedinge of a minde not willinge to finde out the truth but to deceiue the reader For the wordes imediatlie followinge and lefte out by you Mr. Pilkinton propose directlie the question which nowe is in hande and the answere thereof followeth also consequentlie Quid igitur saith S. Chrisost What therefore if he say that the scripture hath in this sort and thou sayest another thinge explicatinge the scriptures otherwise and drawinge theire sence to fauour thee Loe here the question in controuersie betweene Mr. Pilkinton and me Howe doth S. Chrisostome answere it doth he send vs to
they haue not of themselues but receiue from the interpretation of the churche and traditions which is an impious and blasphemous assertion For the interpretation of a Sinode is but a glosse the scripture is the text the interpretation may err the text cannott erre the interpretation is the worde of man the scriptures the voyce of God to conclude this point whereas the position of the former Roman church was that diuinitie reasoneth from the scriptures necessarilie from other authors and learninge probablie the wheele nowe is turned and men reason from the scriptures coniecturallie but from the interpretation of the churche and tradition firmelie and sullie CHAMP Howe often haue you been tould of your wittinge belying your aduersaries you knowe well if you knowe anie thinge that the catholikes whom you call papists doe teach the scriptures to be the worde of the holy Ghost and to haue theire veritie from him independentlie of the churche And therefore that the churche addeth no strength or veritie to them no more then the witnes or notarie addeth truth or veritie to the will testament of the testatour Neuertheles the authoritie testimonie of the churche is as necessarie for the acceptance and acknowledgment as well of the letter and texte it selfe as of the sence and meaninge of the scriptures as the witnes or notaries hande is to the acknowledgment and proofe of the will and testament or as the sentence of the iudge is necessarie for the true sence and meaninge of the will if at anie tyme it come to be in doubte or in question Neither is the interpretation of the churche vppon the scripture the interpretation or worde of man as you hereticallie tearme it but of the holy Ghost as besides other places you may learne of that Visum est Spitui Sancto nobis But it auaileth like as to teache a wilfull mynde wisdome Your conclusion is yett more childishe ignorant and impertinent For from the scriptures vnderstoode in the sence of the churche which is infalliblie true we say the argument is necessarie and infallible whereas from all humane authours taken seuerallie be they neuer so learned the argument is not certayne but probable But wheÌ„ we speake of humane authors we vnderstande not the churche nor yett her receiued traditions And thus you see your strongest arguments against the position of the manuall are nothinge but froathie calumnies paralogismes and impertinencies dispersed and blowne away with euerie small blast of winde Manuall Catholike position 2. All such articles as are of faith and so holden by the protestants themselues are not contayned so much as indirectlie or implicitlie in the holy scriptures but onlie so farr as the scriptures contayne and testifie the authority of the churche traditions Proofe Take all the bookes of the bible and euerie parte thereof which are acknowledged for canonicall scripture ioyntlie of catholikes and protestants be such indeede That the moste blessed mother of our Sauiour Christe continued perpetuallie a virgin That it is lawfull for christians to eat strangled thinges and blood which were expressely forbidden them Acts 15. 20. are not so much as indirectly contained in holy scriptures otherwise then is mentioned in our position But this being more amply proued in that which followeth of traditions this which we haue sayd alreadie shal suffice for the present PILK The sunne needeth to borrowe no light of other starres nor the scriptures of the churche or of tradition For without helpe of either they sufficientlie prooue all articles of faith CHAMP It is an vsuall tricke of all deceiptfull and verball disputers to inuert change the question in hande that when they can say nothinge to the true questioÌ„ they may finde somethinge to say to the question framed by themselues The controuersie here is not whether the scriptures doe sufficientlie prooue all other articles of faith for that was disputed in the precedent position and the negatiue parte there prooued against you but whether they sufficientlie prooue themselues to be the holy scriptures or noe which was the first proofe of this position lett vs heare howe you answere it PILK But here you trifle in idle Homonomie of articles of faith For strictlie those thinges are called articles of faith which are prescribed in the old and newe testament to be beleeued and are summarilie comprised in the Apostles creed whereby they are both distinguished from the precepts of the lawe that prescribe good workes and from the principles of diuintie from which as from conclusions they are deriued CHAMP I knowe not what you call trifelinge in homonomie but I knowe that you bable in obscuritie It is be like no article of faith with you that God is to be adored his name not to be prophaned or blasphemed that our parents are to be honoured with the rest of gods commaundements because they be precepts commaundinge good workes I maruell where you learned this good diuinitie But lett this passe yett it serueth not your turne For the scriptures whereof the question is nowe are not precepts as you knowe You haue therefore another as good a shifte That is that articles of faith are distinguished not onlie from precepts but also â—roâ— princeples of diuinitie from which as conclusions they are deriued these are your owne wordes but what you meane by them I cannot conceiue They seeme to sounde that the articles of faith as conclusions are deriued from the principles of diuinitie Then which you coulde haue sayd nothinge more contrarie to truthe For all men knowe that the conclusions of diuinitie are deriued from the articles of our faith as from theire principles not the contrarie as you dreame It had been good you had taken one yeere more to haue reuewed your writinges that you might haue made better sence of your ayinges PILK Of which sorte of principles these are That the holy scriptures are diuine inspired from heauen immutabely true CHAMP By what other reason I pray you are these thinges here named by you rather to be called principles of diuinitie then articles of faith more then for your owne bare and ignorant assertion you should haue geuen some reason for your distinction that your reader might haue seene it had not been meerely forged onlie to delude the argument Againe why are these thinges to be tearmed principles and not articles of faith God is one God is omnipotent God is truth it selfe and the first truth that reuealeth misteries of faith you dare not denie these to be principles of the other principles and yett are they most properlie articles of faith as you dare not denie expressed in the creede it selfe You see therefore your distinctions of articles and principles of faith to be vaine foolishe and friuolous inuented onlie to delude your lesse carefull reader PILK Improperlie articles of faith are called whatsoeuer is written as the principles themselues preceptes of the lawe sermons of the prophets histories of both testaments because faith assenteth to euerie
taught moe thinges by worde oâ— mouth then he wrote which was my Position it nowe belongeth to you either to graunt my position to be true or to prooue by scriptures that the rest of the Apostles wrote that which he taught by worde of mouth and omitted to write For to say it only without proofe yea and such as you require of your aduersarie is to make your owne affirmation à lawe and rule of your faith Which though it appeareth well to be so to your selfe yett will it not be admitted of others And if I should here againe presse you with your owne rule non eredimus quia non â—egâ—nous you would find ei 〈…〉 your rule too strickt or your assertion here that the other Apostles committed to writinge that which S. Iohn taughte by worde and omitted to write to be false Choose whether parte you will You see therfore that my reasoninge was not loose but that your iudgment thereon was light Your reason followinge is a miserable begginge of that which is in question and which you should prooue and is more easilie and trulie denyed then affirmed And for your better instruction I wish you to marke a litle more diligentlie the wordes of the Apostle and you will as I suppose perceiue the argument to be of more force then you tooke it to be of vnles you dissembled For he giuinge the reason why he would not vse paper and inke to make knowne vnto them to whome he wrote those thinges which he had to teache them he saith not that it is for that either he himselfe or anie of the other Apostles had or woulde sett them downe in writinge but because he hoped to be with them and to speake vnto them mouth to mouth Manuall Proofe 2. And the rest I will dispose when I come Where the Apostle euidently sheweth that he reserued something more to be ordayneth by worde then he wrote PILK This is litle to the purpose for the Apostle doth not there speake of matters of faith which is our question but of such things as belonge to order and comelines as it is playne by the word in greeke which properlie signifieth orderinge of rites and matters of decencie not teachinge of doctrines and matters of faith as appeareth 〈◊〉 the same epist cap. 16. 1. concerninge the gaâ—â—â—â—inge for the Saincts as I haue geuen order to the churches of Galatia euen so doe yee The rest saith Aquinas videlicet these thinges that are not of such danger will I dispose of when I come howe you shall obserue them But lett it be graunted that he meaneth doctrines and matters of faith it is an inference without coherence that because he writte them not then therefore he did omitte them for euer or because he wrot them not therefore the rest were silent and writte them not When you consider of these consequences then you may see that it is as farr from your purpose as Gades is from Ganges CHAMP Your second answere to this testimonie is effectuallie frustrated in my reply to your answere of the precedent testimonie and therefore needeth no further confutation Your former answere admittinge it in your owne sence doth expresselie graunt traditions in matters to be obserued and practised in the churche which seeinge they concerne the vse of the Sacraments and other holy obseruations to be kept by all Christians established and ordayned by the Apostles by the expresse commaundement of our Sauiour Christ Matt. 28. 20. I would knowe of you some reason why you deny the authoritie of traditions in thinges to be beleeued and graunt them in matters to be donne and obserued will you say that they are more fallible in the one then in the other To say this onlie without some ground or reason will haue small grace or force Manuall Proofe 3. The Apostles were commanded to teache all nations to obserue all thinges which our Sauiour had commaÌ„ded Which doubtles they fulfilled but they were not commanded in anie place to write all the same neither doth it appeare by anie scripture that they did write all thinges which they taught men to beleeue and obserue This is a demonstration that they taught more then they wrote if nothinge be to beleeued but that which is contayned in holy scripture PILK That Christe charged the Apostles to teach all nations whatsoeuer he commanded which they fulfilled also but he charged them no where to write all The fathers shall answere We knowe not the dispensinge of our saluation from anie where then from them by whome the gospell came to vs which then they preached and after by the will of God deliuered vnto vs in the holy scriptures to be the foundation and piller of our saith S. Aug. saith that when the Euangelists and Apostles did write what God shewed and sayd we may not say that he writte it not for whatsoeuer he would haue vs to read either coÌ„cerninge his wordes or workes he commandeth them as his owne hands to write it If what the Apostles preached after they writte as Ireneus saith If what God commaunded them so to doe as S. August auoucheth Then it plainlie followeth that they writte as much as they preached and that not onlie by the allowance but by the commandment of our Sauiour Christ For they writte nothinge but that with which they were inspired Nowe inspiration is a commandement as Bellarmine confesseth CHAMP Stande to your grounde and doe not flinche from it you say nothinge is to be beleeued but that which is written If you will therefore that it should be beleeued that the Apostles wrot all things they taught shewe it written or acknowledge your ground to be false The scripture testifieth that the Aposties were commanded to teach all thinges necessarie to be obserued but that they were commaunded to write the same it no where appeareth If therefore they did it either they did it by Christs commaundement and then you must needes confesse something necessarie to be beleeued more then is written for it is no where written that he commaunded them to write all thinges they taught Or they did it without his commaundement And then it was not necessarie they shoulde doe it and consequentlie was it not necessarie there should be anie thinge written at all in the newe testament And thoughe they writte nothinge but that was inspired into them yea that they were inspired to write both which thinges you beleeue thoughe you finde neither of them written yett it no where appeareth that they were inspired to write all they had by inspiration You say the fathers shall answere for you but I receiue not theire answere as sufficient vnles you will stande to the fathers testimonie in all other points You promised scripture for all your positions performe therefore your promise or confesse your position of beleeuinge nothinge but that which is written to be false Notwithstandinge because the testimonie of the fathers is venerable with me I will not
neither baptisinge of infants nor baptisinge by heretikes are written in the scripture and yett prooueth both out of them This is the answere of that worthy diuine D. Fulke CHAMP Both you and your worthy diuine D. Fulke corrupt S. Chrisost who saith it is manifest by the testimonie of the Apostle that they deliuered not all by Epistles but manie thinges without letters marke these wordes without letters and see whether they will stand with your glosse You here confesse against your selfe that S Aug saith neither baptisme of infants nor by heretikes is written and therefore consequentlie beleeued by tradition But you say he neuerthelesse prooueth both by scriptures He sheweth indeede by scriptures that they are not contrarie to scriptures but that they are either commaunded or warranted by scriptures he shewed not but recurreth to tradition and the authoritie of the churche So that the confirmation of your glosse vppon S. Chrisostome out of S. Aug is as voluntarie as the glosse it selfe PILK This is the answere of that worthie diūine Dr. Fulke to the obiection of the Rhemists cited not by him but by them out of S. Chrisostome which I wounder howe you impute to him except you would haue your reader to conceiue that he fauoreth your opinion which he directlie impugneth in that place CHAMP I knowe that amongst other peruersities of that affected wrangler Fulke this is one which for his name hath not the more but much lesse probabilitie because he euerie where impugneth the manifest truth Nor did I impute it to him for the end you say for I desire not his fauour in the behalfe of the catholike truth beinge a peruerse enemie thereof but for this reason that the protestant reader should not suspect the place to be cited by me more fauorablie then it was in it selfe Manuall Proofe 2. O Timothie keepe the depositum that is that which is committed to thy trust not certes by writinge For litle or nothinge written of the newe testament was knowne to Timothy then See a large discourse hereuppon in Vincentius Lirinensis PILK This is nothinge to the purpose For whether that which was comitted to Timothies trust be vnderstoode his flocke as Lyra conceiueth it or those gifts which were bestowed vppon him for the edifiinge of the people as Aquinas iudgeth it is farr from your inference that vnwritten traditions are of equall creditt with the scriptures Vincentius fauoureth not your traditions att all For that which was committed to Timothie is in his opinion the talent of catholike faith whereof he was not the author but the keeper not an ordayner but a follower not a leader but one that is ledd Loe this is the catholike faith contayned in the scriptures not traditions of other doctrine beside them or without them PILK The depositum which S. Paule speaketh of is the whole christian doctrine deliuered by the Apostles to theire disciples to keepe and to deliuer to others as is manifest by the wordes followinge in the same text O Timothie saith he keepe the depositum auoydinge the prophane nouelties of voyces and oppositions of falslie called knowledge Verie litle of which doctrine beinge then written it must necessarilie be vnderstoode of tradition And this is Vincentius Lirinensis doctrine which you cannott denie though you would obscure it a litle in wordes sayinge the depositum is the catholike faith where if you meane the thinges belieued you say the same that I say if you meane the act or habitt of faith you speake against common sence For that is not the depositum comitted to Timothie by S. Paule but the vertue of faith geuen him by God neither is it formallie opposed to the prophane nouelties to be auoyded by him but the vertue or act whereby we assent vnto the articles of faith and verities proposed vnto vs. Manuall Proofe 3. But if anie man seeme to be contentious we haue no such custome nor the churche of God Where S. Paule alleageth the custome of the churche as a sufficient disproofe of any practise why not therefore for the proofe of anie PILK Our question is of doctrines of faith to be beleeued and receiued of all not of rites and ceremonies concerninge externall order of the churche whereof the Apostle treateth in that place This therefore is nothinge to the purpose nor touchinge our question att all and yett S. Paule alleageth not onlie custome but geueth a reason of it in the wordes goinge before which you seldome doe satisfy your proselites but persuade them to beleeue and hange faith vppon your credit as if it were impossible you shoulde be deceiued CHAMP Our question is as well of manners or thinges to be obserued as of faith and so is the former Catholike position of the Manuall conceiued and sett downe neither is the authoritie of traditions either more fallible or lesse necessarie in the one then in the other Or if you thinke the contrarie geue vs some sufficient reason or proofe thereof besides your owne bare assertion Which if you cannot seeinge you are constrained by the euidence of scripture to admitte the authoritie of tradition in the one you cannott without wilfull obstinacie reiect it in the other And thoughe S. Paule geueth some reasons of his doctrine in that place yett he recurreth to the custome of the churche as to the most effectuall and forcible argument against those that are obstinat and contentious as you are Manuall Proofe 4. The things thou hast heard of me by manie witnesses these comend to the faithfull men which shall be fitt to teach others also Loe no worde here of writinge but of hearinge and teachinge by word of mouth Nowe hauinge prooued by scripture it selfe euident instances that manie thinges are to be beleeued that are not directlie contayned in scripture it appeareth a senceles thinge to demande proofe of euery thinge we beleeue out of scriptures PILK Whereas Paule chargeth Timothie to commend those thinges to faithfull witnesses which he had learned of him where there is no mention of writinge but teachinge by worde I woulde gladlie demande of this Papiste if he woulde with patience endure anie of vs thus wildlie reasoninge These thinges were taught and hearde and commended to faithfull witnesses therefore not written The Bereans hearde S. Paule teach but the same things they founde in the scriptures Thus Aquinas interpreteth this place these thinges which thou hast hearde of me and of Christe I say not of one onlie but confirmed by manie witnesses vid. the Lawe and the Prophetts So thinges were not onlie taught by worde but confirmed by the doctrine of the oulde testament CHAMP This reasoninge is not wilde but firme and good especiallie accordinge to your groundes who teach that nothinge is to be beleeued that is not written For seeinge it is no where written that these thinges which S. Paule taught and comended to Timothie to teach to others were committed to writinge you cannot beleeue that they were written but by