a particular Church exceeding the number of them who may ordinarily meet together in one place for the worshipping of God and the sanctification of the Lords-day which if it can be proved overthrowes M. Robinsons M. Cottons definitions of Churcheâ—… and your principles who all keepe to this as to a foundation upon which is built many of your other practises For we know at first the Church of Ierusalem and other Churches were not more numerous then to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation neither could it be expected that all should come in at first and we know for many other Churches the Scriptures doe not so particularly relate the growth and accessions of them But if any one instance can be given it is not materiall whether first or last sooner or later whether in the beginning middle or end of the story for then your Positions and assertions of a particular visible Church are overthrowne for one affirmative overthrowes a universall negative And I aske of you whether you take ordinarily here as opposed to extraordinary or take ordinarily for commonly as opposed to rarely and seldome now if you meane it in the first sence that the Church of Ierusalem and other Churches that may be instanced in their case was extraordinary and though the Apostles suffered them to grow so ranke and numerous yet we may not doe so now I desire to know of you then what is become of your first generall rule the Primitive patternes of Churches erected by the Apostles and I desire to know what râ—…le you walke by and whether the first constituted Church of all were not likely to be the patterne for constituted Churches seeing Primum in unoquoque genere est regula mensura reliquorum But if you meane ordinarily in the second sence as that there is but one only instance the most if not all other Churches were otherwise that you see will not by what I have above written helpe you besides what ever you can probably alleadge that the Churches of these times should be conformed to such Churches which consisted of no greater number then to make one particular Congregation I will give more and better why the Churches of a Nation and kingdome should be conformed to that of Hierusalem As for those phrases of yours which you bring in by way of caution and clearing the way of your government within your selves that you claime not an Independent power to give no account or be subject to none others but onely a full and entire power compleate within your selves untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely Whilest in these first lines you denie Independent power in words yet in your latter words you grant it claiming a full and entire power compleate within your selves which is Independent power and is the full sence of that which hath been fasten'd on you by us and I will shew it more fully in the proper place when I come to the 23. page especially if you take upon you to enjoy it so long untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely I had thought it had been enough upon your being challenged to erre to have given an account but belike it must be erring grossely I suspect something lyes under this as under many other of your phrases whereby you evade and hide your selves stating points wrongfully Pray what doe you account erring grossely and whether doe you judge any thing erring grosly in your particular Churches but such kinds of sins in manners and such kind of opinions as are against the Churches knowne light and the common received practises and principles of Christianitie professed by the Churches themselves and universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches and no other sinnes to be the ground of giving an account as they are not of Excommunication with you page 9. both being of equall latitude sins of particular persons to a Church and the sins of a particular Church to a Communitie of Churches and if that be your meaning you shall be Independent enough And then further I demand of you how you can use those phrases of not claiming a power to be subject to none others I confesse you may better use those words of giving account holding counselling and advising by sister-Churches but as for that phrase of subjecting to none others I understand it not what censure will your Churches subject unto from other Churches will they yeeld to the deposition of their Ministers Excommunication of their members c. or how can there be any subjection to other Churches in your principles the phrase being taken properly and usually when as all along you pleade against authoritative Presbyteriall power so oft exprest in page 15 16. and is the great point in controversie in this instance betwixt you and the Presbyterians How oft doe you denie the subjection of a particular Church to all other Churches and are against all subjecting to censures yea to be subjected as to counsell and advices from the other Churches As to that phrase your owne Elders whereof you had three at least in each Congregation whom you were subject to in which you seeme to hold out the government and power of the Church to lie in the Elders and not in the body of the Congregation I desire you to satisfie me in this point whether all of you hold the power and authoritie to be in the Elders or in the Church and whether by goe tell the Church is meant tell the Elders or the bodie of the Congregation and whether according to the principles of the Church-way in M. Robinsons workes and the bookes of New-England and M. Bridges owne letter unlesse some of you have lately seene another light you might have truly written three Elders at least in every Congregation to whom the Congregations were subject or else three Elders who were subject to their owne Congregations and this shall suffice for answer to the first head of the five concerning the third Instance To the second head under this third instance what you are not satisfied in nor cannot allow 1. About particular visible Churches That you could not imagine in every City where the Apostles came the number of the converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations 2. About the government of it that it should be the institution of Christ or his Apostles that the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleate and entire seat of Church power over each Congregation so combined or that they could challenge and assume that authoritie over those Churches they teach not c. In both these you deale fallaciously and relate the controversie to your advantage and our disadvantage For the first whereas had you dealt ingenuously your words should have been these for that in any Citie where the Apostles came the number of converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations you
infallibly and necessarily a particular Church to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation yet they never intended it as against the reformed Churches Now you know the saying Authoris aliud agentis parva est authâ—…ritas But shew us where ever the old non-conformists as against the reformed Churches held so It will appeare by Gerson Bucerus and by the practise of the reformed Churches in Geneva and Holland for which Mr Robinson so objects against them in his Apologie that though they were against the government of Bishops and Diocesan Churches that is of a head Church over many Congregations united to it yet not of a particular Church of such a City consisting of many particular Congregations And as for that you take for granted by all that there should be severall Elders in every Congregation it is denied you For some Divines as Danaeus and Cartwright as I remember hold it not necessary for every small Congregation in villages but for Cities and more populous places to which the lesser villages being conjoyned have the benefit and support of all the Elders and Ministers in the exercising of government As for that you say Others of them calling the combination of Churches Ecclesiae ortae but particular Congregations Ecclesiae primae as wherein firstly the power and priviledge of a Church is to be exercised that others was Mr Parker who in his Politia Ecclesiastica gives us this distinction and was the first who brought it up as ever I read of who differing from Mr Baynes and other non-conformists and most Divines of the reformed Churches in the subject of the power of the keyes giving it to the body of the Church agreeing therein too much with you no wonder he called particular Congregations Ecclesiae primae But as he was mistaken in the first receptacle and subject of the power of the keyes so he might be in his distinction of Ecclesiae primae and ortae For the first Churches namely that of Ierusalem Rome Ephesus with others were not particular Congregations but Churches consisting of many Congregations severall meeting places some preaching in one place and others in other places but governed by the Elders in common which City Churches were the first Churches still first planted by the Apostles and particular Congregations in villages were Ecclesiae ortae the City Churches in this sence being the mothers and the particular Congregations rather the daughters the full proofe and demonstration whereof I referre to a tractate I intend about the nature of the visible Church But by what I have answered upon this head the Reader may observe there is not all granted which you tooke for granted from the Reformed Churches and the Non-conformists and what is yeelded slowes from another spring and is upon another ground writing against Diocesan Bishops quite another controversie but otherwise even when Non-conformists have come to write against the separation and upon the nature of a visible Church as Mr Ball a they hold the contrary And for learned men of other Churches even when they writ against Episcopacie yet they were farre from holding that a particular visible Church was only a particular Congregation as Gersom Bucerus in his answer to D â— Downham A particular Church is any companie of beleevers conjoyned in the observation of holy ordinances and united to one Presbyterie keeping their meetings in one or more places For the number of Parishes in which they meet is a thing accidentall being nothing at all to the essence of a particular Church And even the Non-conformists you speake of as it appeares by the wary expressions your selves use of them namely infallibly and necessarily doe even give the cause For that is as you imply the Non-conformists in their answers could not denie but probably the number of beleevers were so numerous as to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation in those first timâ—…s though not infallibly and rationally though not necessarily Now in points of externall order and government which depend upon the story and circumstances of time and place how many things are there practised but of presumption though not of certainty and though they cannot be infallibly and necessarily proved so as to stop all mouthes and all that the wit of man can possibly finde out yet if the things asserted can be but probably proved upon better reasons then the contrary we may encline to that as to the safer part How many practises and tenents have you in your Church-way that cannot be infallibly and necessarily proved but stronger answers may be and are given to the reasons you bring for them then any the Non-conformists could give to that instance of the Church of Ierusalem and yet you hold to your principles for all that and it is a rule hath been pleaded by some of you that in things of that nature where the Scripture is not expresse but holds them out most probably though not infallibly and necessarily yet we ought to encline to that As for Mr Baynes answer though directed against Diocesan Bishops and Diocesan Churches to that instance of the Church of Ierusalem it is no whit satisfactorie nor concluding to any man who is of another judgement as the Reader may reade in the 15. and 16. page of the Dioces Tryall To the 3d particular under the first head namely what you allow and grant about a Church and the Government that you could not but imagine that the first Churches planted by the Apostles were ordinarily of no more in one Citie at the first then might make up one entire Congregation ruled by their owne Elders that also preached to them and that you could not but judge it a safe and an allowed way to retaine the government of your severall Congregations for matter of discipline within themselves to be exercised by their owne Elders c. In way of answer I must first complaine of your old fault the slippery and uncertaine expressions used in the relation of what you owne and allow about a Church in those phrases the first Churches ordinarily and at first I demand the reason of you why you put in ordinarily and at first was it not because you fore-saw the Church of Ierusalem and some few others recorded in the New Testament though not in the first Chapter of the Acts and at the beginning yet would at last by the 8. of the Acts and Acts 21. amount to more then could meet in one Congregation and therefore you exprest it so Is this faire dealing or what other reason can you give for using such doubtfull expressions the question is not betweene you and us whether all the Churches and most of the Churches or whether at first and in the beginning of them they consisted of no more in one City then to make up one Congregation but whether the Scriptures in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles be it first or last sooner or later gives any patterne or example of
I faine nothing nor wittingly mis-report any thing no not in the least circumstance neither have I taken up reports lightly but what ever I affirme or assert in this Answer I either had it from their own mouthes or can shew it in their own letters or in other manuscripts or in some printed books of men of their way and communion or else have received it from credible persons many of them eare witnesses and eye-witnesses upon the places All which witnesses are either learned godly judicious Ministers or else godly Christians some their friends and familiars who have beene amongst them and converst with them both in Holland and England And I appeale to many of my Reverend Brethren in the Ministery and to many godly Christians and to the consciences of the Authours of this Apologie upon second thoughts and to their own followers and Church-members whether all along I speake not the truth Our eares have been of late so filled with a sudden unexpected noise of confused Exclamations though not so expressely directed against us in particular yet in the interpretation of the most reflecting on us that awakened thereby we are enforced to anticipate a little that discovery of our selves which otherwise we resolv'd to have left to time and experience of our wayes and spirits the truest discoverers and surest judges of all men and their actions You make the ground and occasion of setting forth this Apologeticall Narration now to be your eares of late so filled with a sudden and unexpected noise of confused exclamations interpretatively reflecting on you It will hardly be believed by wise men that such men as you should make such an Apologie and that in such a juncture of time the Assembly sitting and being upon Discipline and you members of it upon so weake and sleight grounds as a sudden and unexpected noise of confused exclamations comming to your eares which as they are soone raised so are they as soon gone and often die of themselves and by wise men nothing more slighted especially being sudden and confused If other of your brethren who swimme not with the streame of the times and are not the darlings of the people should upon every occasion of their eares fild with a sudden and unexpected noise of confused exclamations even when they are expressely directed against them and not only in interpretation reflecting on them write Apologies and make defences they should judge they had little to doe and might have filled City and Countrey with Apologies before now There are who will not be perswaded but are induced rather to think there were other motives and grounds of your writing that Apologie at that time and the rather because there have been heretofore such noises of confused exclamations at least interpretatively reflecting on you and you pass'd them by Shall I tell you what is judg'd to have rather enforced you unto this worke Many of the Ministers in the City not long before drew up a letter to the Assembly concerning some Church grievances and in particular that of gathering of Churches and drawing away their people which letter as it was not directed in particular against you so it reflected in the words and sense upon many others rather then your selves which letter how it was accepted of by the Assembly and what speeches and motions were upon it how to remedy and prevent the evills represented and especially that of gathering Churches you better know then I. But soon after some considerations were put forth by many members of the Assembly to disswade from gathering Churches to which considerations your hands were subscribed Upon what reasons you complied in that and whether you could not well avoide it without greater prejudice to your cause you know best And now whether this Apologeticall Narration was not first hastned to follow upon these considerations to counter-ballance that act of yours against further gathering of Churches that your cause and way might receive no losse and prejudice and to satisfie your own party many of them greatly exclaiming against you for your hands to those considerations and so thinking by this after game to recover all I leave to the reader to judge 2. Whether also you well knowing that the Assembly was upon the borders of the maine points in difference and upon comming to debate Presbytery Ordination Excommunication you put not forth this book to tast and try the spirits of the Assembly and others before hand 3. Whether also this was not intended to pre-possesse the peoples minds to lay in prejudice against what the Assembly might determine and by discovering your selves so before hand and so publikely ingaging your selves your party might appeare and stand the more by you and with you for a toleration the great designe of the men of this way in these times 4. Lastly Whether as much as you durst this Apologie was not set out just upon the comming-in of our brethren of Scotland to our helpe to asperse the Governement and Reformation of the Church of Scotland and to lessen the esteeme of that Kingdome and Church so much and so deservedly valued by this Kingdome but looked upon by all the men of the new Church way as the great let of their Independent government These reasons with some other may well be thought to be the ground of your Apologie but that alledged by you the sudden and unexpected noyse of confused exclamations seemes so farre from a Reason that upon good grounds is doubted whether it can be true that a noyse of confused exclamations reflecting on you and your wayes could be sudden and unexpected to you 'T is strange to me that exclamations should be to you at that time unexpected that a few men going in a new by way different from all the Reformed Churches of Christendome and that with so high a hand as you and your party have done should not expect speaking against and to have their eares filled with outcryes and exclamations not only confused and interpretative but distinct particular and personall Now as the pretended ground of making this Apologie is taken from you so what you affirme in the following words that you were awakened thereby is denied for you have never been asleepe since your comming over into England but have been alwayes watchfull and intent to the uttermost upon all things which might either further your way or might hinder it 't is we who need something to awaken us as having been too much asleepe in respect of you for whilst the husbandmen have slept you have both sowed tares and reaped a harvest But I am in hope that your Apologeticall Narration and this Antapologia together will awaken both Parliament Ministers and people more and more and open mens eyes to judge of things aright between you and us As for the being enforced to anticipate a little that discovery of your selves which otherwise you resolved to have left to time and experience of your wayes and spirits It appeares manifestly
with his being deceived for a time in the businesse of M Wheelwright and Mistris Hutchinson and some of those opinions about Sanctification evidencing Justification and to some other manuscripts and printed things about the Church-way where there are many things of wit and fancie more then of deep judgement The third part of your praise rises so high as 't is hardly to be paralel'd The sinceritie of them of New-England in their way restisi'd before all the world and will be to all generations to come by the greatest undertaking but that of our father Abraham out of his owne Country and his seed after him a transplanting themselves many thousand miles distance and that by sea into a wildernesse c. Certainly some Independents then must write their Chronicle or else their sincerity will not be so testified to all the world neither will they be so famous to all succeeding generations It is well that in this high praise of them who went to New-England there was some exception and that Abraham their father was excepted how ever in the instance you presently give of their undertaking you secretly preferre the men of New-England before Abraham for Abraham went by land and not by sea and not many thousand miles distance nor into a wildernesse But I am not satisfied in the truth of this undertaking for New-England but am of the mind there both have been and are greater undertakings besides Abraham and his seed after him namely that of Moses and Aaron carrying the people out of Egypt and leading them through the wildernesse to Canaan of Nehemiah and Zerubbabel in building of the Temple besides the present undertaking of the Parliament for Reformation in Church-government and worship against the Papists Prelates and Malignants which you had seen when you writ this Apologie was farre greater and is testified before the world and will be to all generations to come farre beyond that of New-England 'T is strange to me you should thus forget your selves to make the undertaking of New-England to be the greatest that ever was in the world but that of Abrahams But thus partiall we see good men are apt to be for their own party and even starke blind in their own cause And as I am no whit satisfied in this third particular of your praise of New-England so nor in the truth of the thing that you affirme they went to New-England for namely meerely to worship God more purely whether to allure them there could be no other invitement For that which was first held out and most spoken of in the beginning of that Plantation in New-England was the hopes of converting the poore Indians There were some Ministers of note and others who dealt first in that businesse and were prime actors in it that propounded that and really intended it as Mr White of Dorchester Mr Humphreys and I am forgetfull if I have not read some things printed to that purpose As for the worshipping God more purely if your words could bare that sense or you understood them of being freed of the Ceremonies and of Episcopall government that was some part of the designe and ayme though not meerely that but if by worshipping God more purely be meant the worshipping God in the Church-way and the Church-government pleaded for in this Apology it was not in the thoughts of them who were the first movers in it or of the Ministers who were sent over in the beginning as is apparent by a Letter of Mr Cottons sent to Mr Skelton a Minister upon his falling into the Church-way after he came over wherein Mr Cotton writes to him that he went from England of another judgement and tells him how this came about namely from them of New-Plymouth who were Mr Robinsons people and further unto many who went over to New-England after the first and second yeare there were other invitements then meerely worshipping God more purely some of them concluding peremptorily this Kingdome would be destroyed and there would be a hiding place as also the great commendations of the Countrey and Land for subsistence many being low in their estates here led many into a fooles paradâ—…ce who finding all things so contrary to the high reports given out and their expectations have had leisure enough to repent since And some of you who to my knowledge intended for New-England yet when you came to understand better what a hard Countrey it was would not be of the number of them whose sincerity should be testified before all the world and unto all generations to come by going to New-England to worship God more purely when to allure you thither there was no other invitement And now after all this large narration of your falling off from the dark part and of your inquiring into the light part and the story of your impartial looking upon the word of Christ and of your consulting with reformed Churches and looking upon the old Non-conformists and observing the Separatists together with the examples of New-England you plainely come in the close of this Section to declare that for which all this was written namely to possesse the Reader of your freedome and un-ingagement notwithstanding all this to take that way or every thing in each way that was truth whereas you would insinuate that other men who differ from you were not so free nor un-engaged But how likely this is and how un-ingaged and free you were I desire the Reader to remember what presumption if not proofes I have already brought to proove the contrary As for those two Parenthesis brought in of the way of New-England namely those improved to a better Edition and greater refinement by all the fore-montioned helps and that all which we looke upon as reformed Churches To the first of these I say 1. It is a high confidence and presumption to judge the wayes and practises of a few in New-England to be better and more refined then of all the reformed Churches in Christendome 2. What ever the Edition and refinement of New-England is they made little use of all the forementioned helps named by you to attaine unto it few of them consulted with reverence the reformed Churches c. But the maine ground of their improvement to this new Edition and great refinement as you terme it was their consultation with them of New-Plymouth as appeares both by Mr Cottons Letter and by other relations To the second I can judge no other reason of inserting it here nor of calling the way of New-England in that first Parenthesis a better Edition and greater refinement then of any of the reformed Churches but onely that we may understand in what sense you took that part of the Covenant to be brought to agreement with the best reformed Churches that you meant and accounted New-England the best reformed Churches and so satisfie your consciences in taking that branch of the Covenant whereas we looke upon the reformed Churches those of France Scotland Holland c. who are
true Churches namely your seeing that if you had accounted our Churches no true Churches that by the same reason the Churches abroad in Scotland Holland c. yet for their mixture must in like manner be judged no Churches also I answer 't is no concluding Argument M. Robinson who was quick-sighted and lived in Holland long and seeing their mixture yet acknowledges those Churches true but denies ours to be true upon other grounds besides the mixture and 't is evident your reason is insufficient for if your description of a visible Church were only upon difference in the point of mixture and your grounds of separation only upon mixt communion then your Reason had some weight in it but you know your exceptions were many against our Churches which lay not against the Reformed Churches but it is strange to me if you were so good at consequences that you saw and could not but see when there was no necessitie of seeing you could not see the necessarie consequences of your principles about a Church and Ministerie nay not see even your contradictions For let a man but take your owne Positions and Assertions concerning a true visible Church and the true calling of Ministers and lay together your quarrelling with us and leaving us upon those grounds because we have no such Churches and Ministers and yeâ—… to affirme that multitudes of our Parochiall Churches are true Churches And certainly however you who are Schollars might be such good Logicians to make such distinctions to salve all as you conceited yet your people could not but they from your principles and positions about Church Ministerie Worship and Government have judged us no true Churches nor true Ministers but have wondred at this sincere profession of yours before God and the world concerning our Churches and Ministers saying they understood you otherwise and they were much deceived if you held not otherwise at first though now you expresse your selves after this manner And I can hardly beleeve had you made alwaies and frequently such professions of our Churches and Ministers and of keeping communion with them as the Churches of Christ that ever so many had fallen off to your way But thus 't is in all the way of errours men by sits will expresse things as other men do who are Orthodox but yet in a sence of their own to avoid exceptions and that they may be thought to hold as others do therby the more to draw and work some men off to their way when yet in the common sense and understanding of the points they hold otherwise As the Socinians say they hold Christ God and call him so but in a sence of their own and yet denie it in the Orthodox sense So Pelagians and Arminians will extoll the grace of God and that a man can doe nothing without it and yet in that sence wherein the controversie is they set up free-will above the grace of God And so Antinomians will say they doe not denie the law of God and yet in the sense controverted are flat against it And so the Papists will say they hold and looke to be saved by Christ as well as any Protestant though it 's well knowne there is a great difference betweene them in the point of Justification So you and many of your way in a sense of your owne give us good words and say we have true Churches and true Ministerie and yet in the sense of the controversie you teach flat contrary as doth appeare both by printed Tractâ—…tes and by manuscripts and many practises As to that Profession in this Section That in the times when the Churches of England were most either actually overspread with defilements or in the greatest danger therof that we both did and would bold a communion with them as the Churches of Christ I answer what doe I heare words when I see deeds so contrary How can I beleeve this profession that ye would hold communion with the Churches of England as the Churches of Christ under their greatest defilements when as you have never held communion with any of them in the time of their greatest reformation and puritie In this three yeares last since your comming over wherein we have been so free from pollution in worship and since that in so many Churches in London there hath bin the totall laying aside of prescribed formes of prayer and that great care to keepe away both ignorant and prophane persons Which of you five have received the Lords Supper in any of these true Churches and bodies of Christ I never could learne that any of you five nor any of the members of your Churches have communicated with us I can tell you of the adding to your Church Assemblies great numbers since and of your receiving the Lords Supper at night in private houses and how some of you who have not Churches here in London goe to separated Churches to partake in the Lords Supper But Brethren why doe you deale thus and write thus to make men beleeve as if you held great communion with our Churches now who would have held it with them in such bad times I desire you to speake plaine English and not to speake after this manner as you doe too often in this Apologie and to interpret to us in your Reply to this Answer what you meane by both Did and Would hold communion with the Churches of England as the Churches of Christ I know no communion you did hold or doe with us now though so reformed And if you do and will what means that wall of partition between us your new constituted Churches As for thâ—…â—…aring of Sermons sometimes in our Churches and preachiâ—…g in our Congregations I doubt whether you hold that a keeping communion with our Churches and Ministers but rather preach as gifted men and heare ours as gifted men and how ever if M. Robinson and some of your way may be beleeved they hold hearing of the Word no Act of Communion nor no proper nor peculiar thing of the Church And that you are of the same judgement I have great reason both from your principles and practise to thinke so As for that reall testimonie besides your profession That some of us after we actually were in this way of communion baptized our children in Parishionall Congregations whereby you would inferre you held a communion with our Congations as the Churches of Christ I answer this is no reall testimony thereof because it cannot be understood but in the sense before opened of Churches and Ministery And besides if Mr Sympson were one of this Some who baptized his children in Parishionall Congregations 't is so inconsistent with what he writ in the Letter before quoted of the Church and baptisme that I know not how to reconcile these together And the truth is many of your practises are oft times so in-coherent with some of your principles of Church-fellowship as for instance Pastors are necessary Officers in your Churches and yet according
should have laid downe particularly as wherein and how farre you agreed with the Reformed Churches so also wherein you departed from them namely you should have shewed in what you practised more then they doe and wherein you practise short of them and in the things you practised with them yet how you differ'd in the manner of them but to returne to that of censures Reformed Churches practise besides admonition and before they come to excommunication that which is called by Divines Abstentio à sacracaena but you doe not so but conceale this but brethren why should you not practise this especially considering how according to your principles the Church is to receive the Lords Supper every Lords day Now suppose some members commit a great sinne on the Saturday which though comming it be known to the Ministers or Elders and some of the people either there may be no time to call the Church to admonish the parties or if there be for admonition yet not time sufficient for the parties to testifie Repentance and yet the persons may not be judged obstinate and impenitent as to be excommunicated but the persons offending will come now to the Lords table in the interim what will you doe in this case And further the Reformed Churches enjoyne the censure of open confession of sinnes and practise deposition of officers from their places which may justly arise upon some cases and yet not thinke it fit to proceed unto excommunication as your selves practised in M. Wards case never proceeding to give him up to Satan but how lame and defective is this your Narration about the governement of the Church onely relating two things you practised in common with the Reformed Churches and as concealing other things you practised not with them so wholly passing over in silence here all your different way of practising from all Churches in the way of ordination in the way of constituting Churches and admission into them and in the way of governing by the votes and suffrages of the whole bodie in the way of celebration the Lords Supper receiving it at night c. in the Sacrament of Baptisme with many other particulars which whether it be fairly done I appeale to the Reader who is by this much deceived thinking upon the reading of this Narration that you had agreed in all things of Worship Officers Censures with the Reformed Churches But to returne to that censure of Excommunication which you insist upon laying downe your judgement about the subject of that censure As for your blessing God you never exercised it There may be but little ground for such a blessing but cause rather to be humbled for not using it seasonably I judge had you practised it some revilings evill speakings between many members of your Churches with some other offences might have been prevented But there is no such great cause to set out your selves by the non-exercise of Excommunication if what you hold for the matter of it be considered wherein I suppose you differ from all Orthodox Reformed Churches and doe open a wide gappe to much licentiousnesse both in doctrine and practise What doe you judge Is it not to be put in Execution for no other kind of sinnes then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties knowne light c. What if men practise Polygamie prophane the Lords day by using it as they doe any other daie what if they doe hold and accordingly will have practised communitie of goods amongst beleevers what if they maintaine that Christians ought not to be Magistrates all which are not condemned in all the Churches of Christ especially if some Churches may be taken for Churches of Christ and we have reason to beleeve by your manner of expressions you include such neither are perpetrated against the parties knowne light but rather are practised upon new light and as new truthes and let me intreate you in your Replie to explain your meaning what you meane by all the Churches of Christ and by the common received practises of Christianitie and what by the principles of Christianitie universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches whether by Churches you understand the Churches onely of your owne communion and waie or the Churches which are commonly called the Reformed Or else all Churches whatsoever that are so called as besides your owne and the Reformed the Churches of the Anabaptists Antinomians and such like And I have reason to propound this question your words being so doubtfull Now if your words and phrases be taken in the first sence of your Churches only that those sinnes and no other are to be the subject of Excommunication then great sins and errours according to the Scripture and judged so by Orthodox Churches may escape Excommunication and on the contrarie many matters which according to Scripture are neither sinnes nor errours but only your Churches hold them so may have that dreadfull sentenee passe upon them but if you meane it in the largest sence for all kind of Churches and for the received principles and practises of Christianitie professed and acknowledged in all the Churches then more sinnes and errours so judged by the word by most Churches and by your owne Churches too will not be acknowledged for such in all the rest of the Churches and so shall escape that censure But if you should say you meane onely the Reformed-churches commonly so called and the common received practises professed by them it cannot be so understood as is evident by your own expressions in this passage about Excommunication So that here are strange unsafe rules to goe by in the censure of Excommunication and I judge it is a part of the new light and now truths of these times never yet given by any learned Classicall Authour How much better were it for Churches to make the subject of Excommunication such sins and errours which the Scripture hath made so and those sinnes to be agreed upon by common consent in Assemblies and Synods so drawne up for all to know them But if it be objected that this may hinder further light and an after discoverie I answer when any thing more shall come to be found out this need be no hinderance unto any light but by the publike Government and common consent upon good grounds may be added But this your judgement about the censure of Excommunication I feare is calculated for the Meridian of pretended liberty of conscience Now this position of holding the subject of Excommunication to be onely such sins and errours as are against the parties knowne light and the common received practises of Christianity professed in all Churches and no other to be the subject of it tends much to the tolerating of Sects and Heresies which in this impure age is by many men and by too many of the Church way so studiously promoted against the nature of Reformation and true zeale But if one of the great ends of Excommunication be to preserve others from
they goe by that therefore they are in the right certainly the great difficultie in knowing and finding out the directions and examples and in applying them aright and their weake knowledge will give ground sufficient to all reasonable men to suspect the contrary And for your selves Brethren the Reader hath greater reason to judge from what you here grant about the difficultie of the Scriptures in the Church-way and your insufficiencie and ignorance in many cases and to many queries that you might be out of the way then from the sufficiency of the Scriptures to make Churches perfect and your making the Scriptures your supreame rule that you only should be in the right and withall taking-in this that the Reformed Churches you depart from and all along reflect upon in this Apologeticall Narration holding the Scriptures in a true sense to have a perfection for Church-government and setting them up as the supreame rule to eye continually and having the great advantage of you knowing the directions and examples in Scripture better then you by reason of their great learning numbers long studying these points all you speake here of this principle as a ground to take men with and possesse the Readers of the truthof your way rather then theirs hath no strength in it but the scale of sufficiencie of knowledg and ability of finding out the rules and applying being heavier on the Reformed Churches side and the other scale of making the Scriptures the rule equall to yours also you must needs be found light compared with them But after your supposition of the great difficulty of understanding this rule and profession of the non-sufficiencie of your knowledge by which you weaken so much what you would gaine by the narration of setting up this first principle as the supreame rule without you yet before you leave it in the following words you seeme to affirme it Indeed interfeering and hovering about not knowing well where to light and to settle between the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scriptures to all Church matters and the difficultie of finding out the rules and directions As the precedent words and subsequent put together doe shew For you found principles enough not only fundamentall and essentiall but superstructorie also and those to you cleare and certaine and such as might well serve c. Now let the Reader judge if these words doe not not declare a sufficiencie of your knowledge without either Ifs or And 's But you must pardon me if I doe not beleeve you found principles enough superstructorie and that upon these two following grounds 1. Had you found principles enough superstructorie for the wel-being of your Churches and those cleare and certaine and such as might well serve to preserve your Churches in peace and from offence and would comfortably guide you to heaven in a safe way How came it to passe that you made no better a use of them for the well-being of your Churches to have preserved them in peace and from offence but that in so short a time so many offences and differences should fall out and you go so uncomfortably to heaven doubting whether you were in the right way for Church-government and order 2. If you had found out principles enough superstructorie why did you not name them at least some of them you might have done well to have given the Reader a taste of them it would have given good content especially in such a Narration I am of opinion both upon your totall silence and upon some search into these points that besides the fundamentall and essentiall principles to the being of a visible Ministeriall Church you found not many superstructories laid downe particularly in the Primitive Churches either in practise or precept namely ordinary perpetuall c. And I doe desire you setting aside Fundamentall essentiall and substantiall principles that for the superstructories upon them and your deductions you would give me proofes from the Scripture for many of your practises setting aside generall rules of the word and common rules of reason and prudence And whereas you make the observation of so many of those particulars laid forth in the word to become a more certain evidence and cleare confirmation that there were the like rules and ruled cases for all occasions whatsoever if you were able to discerne them Had you exprest any of those particulars the Reader might have gained somewhat and I could have better told from your instances what to have answered you and might have shewne you the dissimilitude how they might not have inferr'd the rest but here as in other passages of your booke you find it safest to be in the clouds and to lie hid in generals But grant it for once you observed many particulars It followes not therefore from many to all But this is a point and principle wherein weake arguments will become certain evidence and cleare confirmation to you But let me hint only some things to you now because this discourse is but the answer of a Narration not of all arguments that may be brought you are mistaken both in your Observation and your cleare confirmation of what followes for you shall find that in the superstructories of the government of the Church there are but few particulars laid downe in the patterne and example of the Primitive Churches and those primitive practises are not such a rule given by God in matters of that nature as that all things then practised must be so in all after times or that nothing afterwards might be practised but what is found there For besides meere circumstances and the rules of the law of nature there are in severall Churches other things tending to the better edification of those Churches to comelinesse decencie outward reverence order peace grounded upon generall rules of the word which in other Churches are not so by reason of the different customes of such countries and the diversities of times and places wherein they were For that is comelinesse and reverence in one country which is not in another So that my observation of so few particular superstructories recorded in the Primitive Churches namely of common ordinary perpetuall order with the different practises in the severall Churches recorded in the new Testament and sometimes in the same Church in many things of the outward administration of externall order are sound proofes to me there are not rules nor ruled cases for many superstructories in externall Government And as to that clause which followes next in this Section for all such cases wherein you saw not a cleare resolution from Scripture example or direction you still professedly suspended untill God should give you further light not daring to eeke out what was defective in your light in matters divine with humane prudence c. For answer I must tell you you either saw that in the Scripture that we cannot see by all search or else you practised many things that have no cleare resolution from Scripture neither in example
Churches allow particular Congregations such an entire and compleate power to be exercised by the Elders within themselves and wherein not such a particular Narration would have carried in the face of it some ground for the defference of their practise and allowance might have served to have pointed out the differences between your way and theirs But secondly As you relate the way and discipline of the reformed Churches it sounds somewhat harsh and strange that their practise should be one way and their judgements another their practise to governe each particular Congregation by a combined Presbyterie of the Elders of severall Congregations united in one for government and yet in their judgements to allow especially in some cases a particular Congregation and entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within it selfe Doe they practise one way and allow another way or doe they hold both wayes the wayes of God or what is it you meane in this Narration of those Churches or can it be meant in the same sense and acception to practise one thing and yet allow another or will you make the lesser matters practised in their particular Churches by their own Elders to be the same with some cases wherein they allow particular Congregations an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within themselves Now the latter namely in some cases cannot be meant for then this last part is no more then the first neither can your words of an entire compleate power of jurisdiction in the particular Congregations be meant of smaller matters but of the greatest matters in some cases You shall doe well in your reply to english these lines about the difference of the reformed Churches practises in greater matters and their different judgements in some cases and shew us in what sense they meane it and whether it can be properly and truly alledged for your case of entire and compleate power in your Congregations Thirdly This which you here relate of the reformed Churches practise and allowance is fallaciously set downe and for your own advantage meerely to make out this third principle that you still chose to practise safely namely what the reformed Churches allowed and acknowledged warrantable onely they superadded Presbyteriall combinations whereas the reformed Churches doe not as you well know in the case and question controverted between them and you allow particular Congregations in a Kingdome and nation conceiving the reformed Religion to have an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within themselves what may be in some of their books in extraordinary or speciall cases where there is but one particular Congregation in a Countrey or the like that is nothing to the point in hand it being laid for a common ground by them all that every particular Church in a Nation or Kingdom is not to be left to it selfe but that there is a necessity of a common nationall government to preserve all the Churches in unity and peace And to cleare the reformed Churches of France Holland Scotland from what you say they allow I doe not find in their books of discipline and platformes of Church government by which we must judge of their judgements nor in their practises that they doe allow an entire and compleate power to be exercised by the Elders of every Congregation alone either in the making or ordaining of Ministers or in deposing their Ministers or in drawing up a forme of doctrine worship and discipline for themselves they allow power of admonition suspension from the Lords Supper and of taking up lesser differences by the particular Eldership and if I forget not the Churches of France only practise excommunication by the Elders in particular Congregations without carrying it at first higher but then if we consider that in those Churches of France their Elderships goe upon certaine fixed rules in there excommunications laid down in their books of discipline who if they proceed otherwise are liable to censure themselves and their being appeales to Synods and Assemblies and all being carried in reference and dependance to Assemblies the case is very different now if the Churches of your way and communion in old England and in New would yeeld to have a government fixt and setled by Synods and Assemblies establisht also by the Magistrates upon which Rules and Orders they should proceed in the way of making Ministers and that such errors in doctrine and such evill manners ought to be the subject of excommunication and then agree upon appeales to Synods and Assemblies then there would be lesse dangâ—…r in such an entire and compleate power in particular Congregations To the second particular under this first head namely what some of the old non-conformists grant placing the power of excommunication in the Eldership of each particular Church untill they doe miscarry and then indeed subjâ—…cting them to Presbytâ—…riall and Provinciall Assemblies and that it could not be infallibly prooved that any of the Churches recorded in the new Testament were so numerous as necessarily to exceed the limits of one particular Congregatïon And that both the Ministers of the reformed Churches and our non-conformists all granted that there should be severall Elders in every Congregation who had power over them in the Lord I answer as followes For Mr Cartwright you not quoting which of his books you have reference to and so not knowing which to turne to to find out what you assert of him I shall not deny it but as for Mr Baynes Diocesans Tryall which is the only booke I ever heard of wherein he handles these points he doth in the third question give the Ecclesiasticall power and the exercise of it to a united multitude of Presbyters in which booke howsoever as intending his booke against Diocesan Bishops and Diocesan Churches to whom all Presbyters and Churches stand in subjection and subordination he pleads against them for the power of the particular Elders in the severall Congregations yet as against the reformed Churches practise namely of a Presbyteriall Church consisting of many particular Congregations and ruled by the Elders of severall Congregations combined he pleadeth not but expressely in answer made to those two objections from the Churches and Elders where there is a co-ordination and a communiâ—…y in government as in the Low Countries and at Géneva he grants the thing contended for against your Congregationall way even before miscarrying and shewes thâ—… great difference between the Diocesan government and the Presbyteriall in severall particulars and answers your objections which you commonly make of a forraigne extrinsicall power And for your better satisfaction reade and compare together the passages in these pages of Mr Baynes Diocesans Tryall page 21 page 11. What is meant by a Diocesan Church and in the 12th page two first conclusions agreed in and in the 16th page And for the non-conformists in their writings against the Episcopall government and Diocesan Churches though they put the Bishops their adversaries all they could to it to make them proove
are so many as they cannot meet in one place but have more meeting places yet in imitation of the Scriptures giving that ground to some who have askt them a reason they make City Churches but one and the Ministers are Ministers in common of them all preaching in their courses in the severall meeting places and governed in common and this they doe to keep nearest to Apostolicall practise whereas now in the Countrey where villages are and the meetings are scattered they doe not all preach to all And to adde this further to shew your unsafe way of practising in the way of your particular Congregations over the reformed Churches and our Churches in England your Congregations as in London where the meeting place is and the Ministers reside is made up of members as of some living in London so of some in Surrey Middlesex Hartfordsheire Essex where they have fixum domicilium being twenty miles asunder and many members meeting but sometimes in a Moneth where neither Ministers can oversee them nor members watch over one another not knowing what the conversation of each other is which yet are brought as the maine grounds for your Church-fellowship which non-residencie of the members from one another and of the officers from so many of the members whether it overthrow not and be not point blank against many of your principles of the Church-way I leave to your selves to judge besides that it is without any Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles the Churches being still stiled according to the places where they lived and met as in Rom. 1. 7. To all that be in Rome beloved of God called to be Saints And so in the Epistles to the Corinthians To the Church of God which is at Corinth And I desire you to give me any Primitive patterne of any who belonged to the Church of Rome Corinth Ierusalem that is were standing members of those Churches who lived and inhabited ten miles twenty five miles c. round about those Cities so that we find here in this third instance namely in the government and discipline of the Churches as well as in the first instance in the qualification of your members that the additament is on your sides and not on the reformed Churches To the third head namely the reasons couched and hinted for your own practise and against the practise and way of the reformed Churches to the first reason I answer as the relating of the state of the questions was not proper so this argument hinted here is not properly expressed for their might be such a Presbyteriall Church and government as is maintained against you namely but two or three distinct meeting places and yet not Churches rising to such a numerous multiplication nor Apostles staying to the setting up of Churches untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication But pray what doe you meane by those expressions We did not imagine but might you not or could you not have imagined it though you did not nor would not and what by this that the Apostles should stay the setting up of any Churches at all untill they rose to make such a numerous multiplication as might make such a Presbyteriall combination Doe you carry the words in reference only to that numerous multiplication or simply and positively that the Apostles did not stay so long in any City as to set up any Churches at all Now if you will have your words interpreted in the first sense then judge how improper the speech and narration of your mind is for then it should have gone thus that the Apostles should stay the setting up of so many Churches untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication for the denying the setting up of any Churches and at all agree not with the following words untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication the former being a diminitive nay a negative and cannot agree to such an augmentative as the latter besides your first words carried in reference to the following have no strength to proove what you bring them for namely what you allowed and practised or what you disallowed for though the Apostles should not stay so long as the setting up so many Churches as might arise to such a numerous multiplication of severall and sundry Congregations yet there might be such a Presbyteriall classicall Church a Church consisting of more then could meet in one place which is the controversie between us But if you understand your words simply and positively that the Apostles did not stay the setting up of any Churches at all I desire you to remember your own principles and expressions in many books and discourses of your way that the Apostles were the founders of the first Churches as at Corinth Rome and for Ierusalem especially which is the particular Church we most stand upon the Apostles staid long enough there to set up not onely any Churches at all but many to make such a Presbyteriall combination as is stood for as will appeare both by Acts 8. Acts 15. Acts 21. and it is the judgement of Mr Robinson that Ierusalem was never without some of the Apostles there which the two first chapters of the Galathians give a strong ground for besides the many Presbyters that belonged thereunto And so for the Church of Ephesus Paul stayed at one time in those parts three yeares together long enough to make so many Churches as might make a Presbyteriall combination which that of the Acts chap. 20. vers 17 18 25 28 29 31. doe give hints enough for if the nature of an answer to a Narration would permit to draw them out at length To the second reason hinted that those precepts Obey your Elders and them that are over you were to be sure meant of the Pastours and teachers set over them in each particular Congregation respectively and to be as certainely the intendment of the Holy Ghost as in those commands Wives obey your own husbands c. I answer that in Scripture a particular Church consisting of more Congregations then one and the Ministers and Elders feeding them and governing them in common as at Ierusalem and as it is in the Low Countries in Cities there as at Amsterdam c. all the Ministers and Elders are their own Ministers and Elders as the husbands are the owne of their wives and those Scriptures are to be understood of all their Pastors and Ministers and not of some only or in respect of some and not of the rest and it is as certainely the intendment of the Holy Ghost as in that command Wives obey your owne husbands that obey your Elders c. be meant not of some but of them all 2. In Churches by their combination consisting of many Congregations where ordinarily some Pastors and teachers feed some Congregations and not the rest Ministers being fixed some to that Congregation and others to other Congregations yet there being a government in common by all the Presbyters of
of Dort and unto Vedelius de Episcopatu Constantini magni who as all men know gives in that booke power enough to Magistrates in Ecclesiasticals yet he layes down at large that as the Anabaptists and Socinians following the Donatists give too little to the Magistrate so the Arminians did offend in the excesse For before the Synod of Dort they contended that under the Orthodox Magistrate the Church had of it selfe no spirituall power The Ministers of the Church did performe their office in the name of the Magistrate so that the Magistrate because he for other businesses could not preach c. he did preach by the Ministers they gave the government of the Church to the Magistrates alone they gave the calling of Ministers and their deposing to the Magistrate alone with many other such but afâ—…er the Synod they denie 't is their right and office to oblige men by their authoritie to the decrees of Synods however agreeable to the word or to use any coactive power in that case c. in which they take away as much from the Magistrate as in other things they seemed to give And it may be feared however these Apologists now to ingratiate themselves and being left alone in their Church-way say they give more to the Magistrates then the Presbyteriall and that they professe to submit and to be most willing to have recourse to the Magistrates judgement and cognizance and examination of Ecclesiasticall causes yet when they shall come once to be crossed and the Parliament by the advise of the Assembly to settle the government of the Church and by their authoritie to bind them to the things agreeable to the word we shall see then what they will say of the Magistrates power there are too many speeches alreadie since the meeting of the Assembly out of their feare how things may goe which have fallen from many Independents that prognosticate they will doe by the Parliament as the Remonstrants did after the Synod of Dort by the States 2. But whatever you say here that you think you give more to the Magistrates then the principles of the Presbyterian Government will suffer them to yeeld I doe much doubt it and doe judge that in many things you give no more in Ecclesiasticals then the Presbyterians and in others you give lesse and they give more M. Robinson in his Apologie saith of himselfe and his Church that in the point of the civill Magistrate and his office they hold altogether the same thing which the Belgicke Churches doe and that to their Confession in this point they do ex animo agree Now the Belgick Churches are Presbyterians and your Church-way M. Robinsons differ not much â—…o that till you know what you give more to the civill Magistrate then M. Robinson and his Church doe I cannot beleeve you especially considering that M. Burroughes one of you in his Lectures upon Hosea speaking of the power of Magistrates in Church affaires gives no more to them then the rigidest Presbyterians namely That the King is supreame governour to governe in a civill way by civill Lawes so as to sâ—… Christ not dishonoured so as to keepe out Idolatry to protect the Church to punish enormitios that are there to defind it from enemies In that sense he is said to be the head but that title of supreame Governour being understood in a civill way is more proper Now it were easie out of Beza Calvin Zanchius and many Presbyterians to show more power given to Kings by them in matters of Religion then by M. Burroughes there so that I have more reason to judge of your principles by what M. Burroughes writes particularly and by way of answering doubts of conscience then from a Narrration in generall and from we thinke more then the principles of Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to yeeld In other things you give not so much to the Magistrates as the Presbyterians First whereas the a Presbyterians doe acknowledge the Protestant Prince and Magistrate an eminent member of the Church and in their greatest Assemblies and Councels give him an eminent place and power you according to your principles doe not owne him for a member of the Church neither shall his children be admitted to Baptisme nor he to the ordinances though a Protestant and Orthodoxe unlesse you account him a visible Saint c. neither doe you give him so much power or vote no not in a particular Church in any Church matters of censures admissions election of officers c. as you doe give to one of your serving men and the supreme Magistrate and his children though brought up and professing the true Religion may be and will be kept from the Sacraments all their dayes 2. The Presbyterians give to the Magistrate a coercive and coactive power to suppresse heresies schisme to correct troublers and unruly persons in the Church to tie and bind men by their authoritie to the decrees of Synods made according to the word of God which power as b Voetius showes only the Remonstrants with the Libertines did not admit but all the Presbyterians doe reject such opinions that the Magistrate could not by his authoritie bind and compell men to observe the decrees of Synods conformable to the word of God now doe you allow the Magistrates such a power By your pleading for tolerations of Religion and for liberty of conscience and that conscience is not to be tied and by your speaking against impositions of things lawfull and agreeable to the word as set formes of prayer decreed by Synods and such like 't is very suspitious you allow not such a power to Magistrates and your good friend M. S. in his answer to the observations and considerations upon your Apologeticall Narration pleading your cause denies and pleads against this coercive power of the Magistrate 3. The Presbyterians give a great deale of power to the supreme Christian Magistrate in the Reformation of Religion and in repairing and building the house of God as might be showne out of Calvin Zanchius Peter Martyr c. but whether the Independents give as much when they allow private men to gather and make Churches and Ministers to do such publike workes and that without leave nay against the mind and laws of the supreame Magistrate I question There is a Tractate in my hands about a Church that goes under the name of one of you wherein civill Magistrates are cut off and Ministers too from having any power to make Churches and the immediate Independent power from Christ is given to the Saints onely to gather and combine themselves in such an Assembly without expecting warrant from any Governours what soever upon earth Saints as Saints have a right and full power to cast themselves into the fellowship without asking the consent of Governours and civill Magistrates who have no power in the marriage of their people nor should have it being an act of naturall civill
you may call it exile because you did flie out of your owne Country though none persecuted you to shun persecution before it came as foreseeing possibility of danger yet you can in no sence be called poore Exiles for you were rich Exiles who in Holland enjoyed many conveniences and such abundance as to be able some of you to spend 200 or 300. lb. per annum and to doe other expensive acts which for present I forbeare to name And I can produce letters of many conveniencies which you enjoyed there Letters before quoted by me of M. Archers speake so much Poore exiles are such who have no certaine dwelling-place maintenance friends but how they can be called poore Exiles that enioy wives children friends full and liberall maintenance annually liberty of callings with all pleasures and delights as much or rather more then in their owne countrey I see not Suppose some merchants and tradesmen who could not so well nor so much to their advantage follow their callings and drive their trade in their owne countrey should for their better advantage and accomodatons in these kinds goe with their families into another Countrey can these be called Exiles Suppose a Minister who disliking some things here in the present Government to be established or wanting a liberall maintenance or fearing the warre should goe over to Roterdam Hambrough to preach to the company of Merchants there where he shall have better meanes can this Minister be stiled a poore exile Now I leave you and the Readers to make application As for those words Gods bringing you backe againe in these revolutions of the times into your owne land I know God permitted it and ordered it but I well know Satan hastened and furthered it for the dividing of the godly party here and for the obstructing the worke of Reformation and hindering the setling the government of the Church that so in the meane time he might increase his kingdome and bring in a floud of all errours and licentiousnesse upon us and Brethren let me speake sadly to you not out of passion but out of long and serious deliberation it had been good for you and for us that you had continued exiles still and that neither you five nor they of New-England had heard of the revolution of our times and Gods visiting us in mercie till the Church and government had been setled I am confident that things had not then been at that passe now as they are As for that Parenthesis the powring forth of manifold prayers and teares for the prosperitie of the Kingdome in a strange Land I will not gaine-say it onely let me mind you of two passages in your Apologie Our selves had no hopes of ever so much as visiting our own land again in peace and safety to our persons and the other when we had least dependencie on this kingdome or so much as hopes ever to abide therin in peace Now take away faith hope endeavors will much cease this I judge should much hinder your praiers and teares for the prosperitie of the land for my part I had much hope of the kingdom when things were at worst and I exprest it both in preaching and conference to many and some can witnesse what I have said to them of the Arch-bishop of Canterbury and the rest of that faction and of the revolution of the times God was pleased so to support my spirit that I expected and waited as men doe for the light of the morning when that every day God would arise and doe some great worke and change the times and seasons As for your finding the judgement of many of your godly learned brethren in the Ministerie that desired a generall Reformation to differ from yours in some things that was no marvell I wonder you could expect it otherwise being but a few young men of yesterday and going a way by your selves so different from all Reformed Churches But I must tell you you found not onely the judgement of many godly Ministers that desired a generall Reformation but the judgement of them all who were in publike imployment and of any great account to differ from yours not onely in some things but even in your whole Church way how ever that since by your presence and your politick way of working and the strong streame of popular applause running that way some few Ministers uncertaine heady inconstant wanton-witted men are since come off to your way but as for your confidence and open profession that in the things wherein you differed from many of your godly brethren that you professedly judge the Calvinian reformed Churches of the first Reformation from out of Poperie to stand in need of a further Reformation themselves I answer they may doe so and I know no Church yet so perfect but may stand in need of some further Reformation and the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland grant you so much pag. 7. That they are most willing to heare and learne from the word of God what needeth further to be reformed in the Church of Scotland Now whether your Churches and those of new England be so perfect though not of the first Reformation as to stand in no need of a further Reformation in government I much doubt especially considering that letter lately come from New-England written by M. Parker as also a nother Letter from M. Wilson of Boston and a terrible Lette from a reverend godly Minister there whose name I have been entreated to conceale least it might much prejudice him there but for answer I must tell you I doe professedly judge that in your sence in the things excepted against by you the Reformed Churches particularly that of Scotland need not a further Reformation namely to come to your principles of Democracie Independencie Libertinisme and to keepe all those and their children from admission into the visible Church whom you keepe out and to condemne as unlawfull all set formes of prayer composed by Synods and Assemblies though never so holy and heavenly for matter and frame And as to that that it may without prejudice to them or the imputation of Schisme in you be thought that comming new out of Poperie they might not be fully perfect the first day I answer they never thought so neither were they so fully perfect in Church government the first day but the reformed Churches particularly the French-Churches had many Synods Assemblies and Colloquies where points of government and order have been further debated cleared and Canons added and in the Church of Scotland after doctrine was established they were exercised in conferences and Assemblies about matters of Discipline and Government which is the perfection spoken of here by you above twenty yeares Besides considering that the Reformed Churches both in France Scotland and Holland have heretofore been troubled with the maine of your principles and have heard all the Arguments and reasons for them and against their owne way and that both of old
and now of later yeares Scotland of old having been troubled with the Separatists and the Churches of France by Morellius against whom Sadeel did write and Beza in his Epistles writes against that principle of the power of the people that nothing is ratified except the people present by their expresse suffrages doe decree it and against private mens prophecying in the Church and of late though the controversie be growne so high yet Divines both in Holland and Scotland as your selves confesse have writ against your way and can see no light Iâ—…m it and in a generall Assembly of Scotland since our Parliament the point being moved and debated there it was concluded against by the whole Assembly nemine contradiconte as a Letter written from that Assembly to many Ministers in the City which I heard read at a meeting testifies neither are any of the Reformed Churches yet satisfied by all that hath been written about your Independent government nor our present Assembly by all they have heard from you after so many dayes speaking for your way So that what the Reformed Churches stand for now is not as comming new out of Poperie and so wanting light as you assert and therefore though they had not Apostolicke Infallibilitie yet they might well be in the right for Church-government and therefore the Reformed Churches and the Church of England too judging of government now after above 80. years comming out of Poperie and after hearing all that hath been said and that you can say now after almost a yeares sitting in the Assembly They yet judge Presbyteriall government by Classes and Synods to be the true forme of Church-government against your Independencie so that now the ground you going upon being taken away you cannot without great prejudice to the Reformed Churches so peremptorily judge them as you doe in this place of your Apologie And as your practise cannot be without prejudice to them and the imputation of Schisme in you from them to set up new Churches and divide from them upon these grounds so this passage of yours here against all the Reformed Churches cannot avoyd the suspition of great arrogancie and pride to proclaime your selves to see more then all the Churches in worship and government and to judge them so 'T is a high presumption that five such young men as you are and no deeplier studied should thus proudly and tanquam ex tripode so magisterially conclude against all the Reformed Churches Certainly had you had the humilitie of many of Gods servants you would rather have feared and questioned whether you might not have been mistaken in your grounds and therefore modestly have propounded your doubts to the Assembly to have resolved them rather then before the points ever came to be debated in the Assembly in such matters where you goe against the common streame of all Reformed Churches to have thus professedly peremptorily and resolvedly both in this Section and in the next pag. 24. determined the questions And brethren let me friendly mind you who are you five of what standing reading graces to take so much to your selves and to be so peremptory that you should see that which all the Reformed Churches doe not nor are not able by any of your Arguments nor what else is extant to see or be convinced of But as for the close to this part of the Section concerning the Calvinian Reformed Churches that it may hopefully be conceived that God left England more unreformed as touching Government and Worship then the neighbour Churches were c. It is a strange speech and savours of a strange high conceit of your owne way of Independencie and of your great light and abilitie in this Assembly where the Church of England is to be reformed and to speake plainly the English and sence of all these lines is this That it may be hopefully conceived that God in his secret yet wise and gracious dispensation hath all this long time for above 80. years left England more unreformed and of his infinite mercy on purpose reserved it for this present Assembly that M. Goodwin M. Nye c. might bring a new light in Church government and order and so Scotland and the Neighbour-Churches might be new-moulded into their way But how ever some of you are men of strong fancies and all of high confidences of your owne opinions and wayes yet I beleeve you will be deceived at this time how ever you may comfort your selves and Churches with the hopes of prevailing at another time saying that Presbyterie shall fall as Episcopacie hath done after it's time one of that way for want of arguments having used such words to me and that M. Goodwin M. Nye c. will not be able to effect what they desire and hope for but it may be rather hopefully conceived that in stead of the reformed Churches comming to them these five members of the Assembly at last with others to upon this glorious Reformation will be brought to joyn with other reformed Churches according to the solemn Covenant and oath themselves have entred into We found also which was as great an affliction to us as our former troubles and banishment our opinions and wayes wherein we might seeme to differ environed about with a cloud of mistakes and misapprehensions and our persons with reproaches Besides other calumnies as of schisme c. which yet must either relate to a differiâ—…g from the former Ecclesiasticall government of this Church established and then who is not involved in it as well as we or to that constitution and government that is yet to come and untill that be agreed on established and declared and actually exist there can be no guilt or imputation of schisme from it That proud and insolent title of independencie was affixed unto us as our claime the very sound of which conveyes to all mens apprehensions the challenge of an exemption of all Churches from all subjection and dependence or rather a trumpet of defiance against what ever power spirituall or civill which we doe abhorre and detest or else the odious name of Brownisme together with all their opinions as they have stated and maintained them must needs be owned by us Although upon the very first declaring our judgements in the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church discipline and likewise since it hath been acknowledged that we differ much from them And we did then and doe here publikely professe we beleeve the truth to lye and consist in a midle way betwixt that which is falsely charged on us Brownisme and that which is the contention of these times the Authoritative Presbyteriall government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it I desire you to resolve me and the Reader how the first sentence in this Section Your opinions and wayes environed about with a cloud of mistakes and misapprehensions and your persons with reproaches can stand with those words in the 24 page We found many of those mists that
doe not goe to heaven to be with Christ expresly contrary to the 2 Cor. 5. 6 8. and to Philip. 1. 23. now whether some of you may not hold those opinions seeing they were publiquely preached at Arnheim and never condemned as ever I heard I know not but have reason rather to suspect you doe how ever though you doe not nourish any Monsters or Serpents of opinions in your bosomes yet I feare you have running wormes in your heads and together with the gold silver and Ivory of Orthodox truths you have store of Apes and Peacocks conceits and toyes as strange coined distinctions new strained expositions of Scriptures odd opinions about the personall raigne of Christ on earth and I aske you what the annointing with oyle of sick persons as an Ordinance for Church-members and what the bringing in of Hymnes composed by the gift of a Church-member cum multis aliis are whether are not these strange conceits and how ever you may be free of Monsters and Serpents of opinions lurking in your bosomes yet there is much of a Monster and the Serpent lurking in this Apologie and to be sure one Monster of opinions you all hold generally and some of you have preacht for A Toleration of divers sects and opinions and let me tell you granting you five be so Orthodox and supposing your argument good to prove it exposing your selves to the hazard of discovery in this Assembly which is no concluding argument yet there are many members of those Churches to which you belong besides many other members of Churches of your way and communion whom I suppose must be tolerated as well as your selves that doe hold very odd and strange things Some of Arnheim hold strange conceits and some members of Mr Sympsons Church hold some of the points of the Anabaptists and daily the Independent Churches like Africa doe breed and bring forth the Monsters of Anabaptisme Antinomianisme Familisme nay that huge Monster and old flying serpent of the Mortality of the soul of man and indeed there is no end of errours that the Independent principles and practises lead unto As for those words if we had carried it so as that hitherto such errours were not aforehand open to the view and Iudgement of all yet sitting here unlesse we would be silent we could not be long hid c. I answer some one or two Heterodox opinions may be hid where men are Orthodox in the most especially if all points of doctrine have not been discussed nor reviewed as in the Assembly they have not many Articles of our Church not having yet been gone through so that your errours in doctrine may be behind and your triall of being Orthodox will be when the Assembly comes to these Articles Article 19 22 23. 26. and when that doctrine concerning the Lawfulness of a Toleration of divers sects and opinions shall come to be discussed But before I passe from this I desire the Apologists to remember and the Reader to observe they call the Church of England Our Church and so in the fift page of this Apologie Our own Congregations we meane of England So that if you meane as you here write then the Nationall Church of England is your Church and the Parochiall Congregations are yours and so you establish a Nationall visible Church under the new Testament and if so why doe you erect other Churches and withdraw from your own but if you doe not meane so nor beleeve there is a Nationall visible Church nor account your selves members of this Nationall Church why doe you speake so and call the Church of England your own Church and the Parochiall Churches your own Congregations As for that part of this Section which concernes your good carriage in the Assembly in matters of Discipline In matters of Discipline we are so farre from holding up the differences that occurre or making the breaches greater or wider that we endeavour upon all such occasions to grant and yeeld c. I not being present at the debates will say nothing against it but whether since the writing of your Apologie and the Assembly comming to the points of Discipline which are properly yours your free-hold you have been so faire and moderate endevouring upon all occasions to grant and yeeld to the utmost latitude of your light and Consciences that I doubt and your best friends are not satisfied in it but rather much offended and you have much lost your selves with them by your demeanour and way of managing matters of difference in the Assembly But supposing all you say of your selves in this Section were fully so both before and since your Apologie yet it were not much materiall nor much to be trusted to being upon the triall of your good behaviour for it is probable all that may be done out of policie in reference to the main designe of obtaining a Toleration which at first cannot be imagined to have any probabilitie of being gained without all seeming fairenesse and compliance and drawing neere to us and therefore this Apologie is so framed in the words phrases and composure of it that in it you have stretcht your selves to the utmost latitude and highest compliance with the Church of England and the Reformed Churches even beyond what is meant by you in our sence and in common acception and beyond what many of your followers will own As also you hide and reserve severall things you hold both in matter and manner that so by all this you might court the Parliament Assembly Reformed Churches to beare with such conscientious men who differ so little from them and are so moderate and temperate also in and about the debate of those differences but the Parliament and the Assembly are wise to see into and thorough these Artifices and to consider that if once a Toleration were granted there would quickly be discovered another face of things which hitherto stands behind the curtain As for this passage in the close of this Section your not being backward urgers unto a temper not only in things concerning your own consciences but others also such as may suit and tend to union as well as searching out of truth judging this to be as great and usefull an end of Synods as a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding determintions of truth one way I judge then you had but a weake ground to urge you to temper in matter of difference and I question whether you were so forward to a temper in the things that might suit and tend to union for I suppose you are so farie from holding that a great and usefull end of Synods a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding Determinations of truth one way as that you deny it I have read a letter out of New-England from a Minister of note there speaking of that Synod which met upon occasion of the Antinomians and Familists formally denying this power of binding
are sufficiently knowne And however all these things of no other interest but a subsistance in our own land and of enjoying the ordinances of Christ and not knowing where else with safety health and livelihood to set our feet on earth be held forth as specious pretences to the Parliament and Reader to perswade and to allure them yet the bottome of all this desire of a toleration in England though concealed is that there is no other place on earth where you are like to propagate your way to gaine so great a party to enjoy such full and rich Congregations and to have that respect and applause in your way as in England and in England as London and the adjacent parts or where you can have those faire hopes and probabilities of drawing so great a part of a Kingdome to your Church-way as here and where if you goe on to act as diligently and politickly as you have done in these three yeares last past and the Ministers be as generally silent and the common people of the Kingdome come a little more to understand your principles and have time to digest and consider of the great liberty and power they have thereby the rest of the Kingdome may in time come to be beholding to you for a toleration of Presbyterie if it be established which you will as soone grant if you come to have power in your hands as you will Episcopacy and Popery many of your Church-way ordinarily affirming they had rather have Episcopacie then Presbyterie and it hath been affirmed to me by a Minister of note that a Minister of the Church-way preferred Popery in this Kingdome before Presbyterie for if Popery should come in it would be but short lived but Presbyterie was like to be long lived The Arminians in the Netherlands at first desired but a toleration no more but to be permitted to enjoy in some Churches of their own their consciences with peaceableneâ—… but afterwards that by the connivance and favour of the Magistrates they were in some Cities and places as Amsterdam c. grown to a great number and had a great power then they would not suffer noâ—… tolerate the orthodox Ministers but persecuted them and some were forced to flie as in the stories of the Netherlands is at large recorded And if ever the Independents by connivance or a toleration should come to have a power and strength considerable if they serve not us so I am much deceived All Sectaries and erroâ—…eous spirits who are but tolerated and not owned will watch all advantages to set up their own way as chiefe and when they have a power will be impetuous and violent to effect it as the Anabaptists in Germanie were the Arminians in Holland and the Antinomians and Familists in New-England As women out of their weakenesse and feare when they have power over any are most cruell so Sectaries out of their feare least a State may one time or other cast them out and not tolerate them will upon an advantage suppresse and destroy the orthodox and stablish their own 2. As for the matter it selfe contained in the close of your booke a Toleration of Independent Churches and government the scope and last end of this Apologie whereunto tends all the artifice and fallacies in the composure of it I shall lay downe some Reasons and grounds against it I cannot stand to handle the question at large about tolerations of different Religions or of divers Sects and opinions in one and the same Kingdome this answer being already a great deale longer then I intended it I cannot now open the tearmes and premise the distinctions as distinguishing concerning the nature and kind of errors concerning the persons erring concerning the kinds and degrees of toleration and coaction c. I shall reserve the full handling of this point whether toleration be lawfull to a particular Tractate I intend upon that subject In the meane time upon occasion of what you present here to the Parliament I shall humbly submit to their considerations these following particulars 1. A Toleration of Independent Churches and government with their opinions and practise is against the Magistrates duty laid downe in Scripture but for Magistrates by good lawes to command and require obedience to the government and Reformation upon good grounds judged to be according to the word of God and so established is lawfull and their duties For the clearing of which I premise two things which I suppose must needs be granted 1. That the Magistrate is custos ac vindeâ—… utriusque Tabula as is confessed by all orthodox Divines that the care of Religion belongs to him and that he is to looke to it that the Church of God and the Government of it be constituted and setled according to the Word and that the people may lead a peaceable and quiet life in all godlinesse and honestie for which end Princes and Magistrates are to make Lawes for the observing of the Worship and Government of Christs Church forbidding and punishing with religious severitie those things which are practised against the Word of God but commanding what is according to it this is one of the great services they yeeld to Christ as they are Magistrates and I find Augustine and other Divines giving that sense of Psal. 2. 10 11. of Kings and Iudges serving the Lord with feare and of Deut. 17. 19. of God commanding the King to read the booke of the Law that he may learn to observe the things which are written in it not onely as private men practising these and ordering their lives according to the Word but as Kings they should order their Office by the Word not onely by living holily for so they serve God as men but as Kings and Magistrates by making Lawes for the Worship of God and prohibiting the contrary 2. That the Reformation in Worship Government c. which shall be setled and established by the Parliament is judged and taken for granted by them to be according to the minde of Christ else why have they called so many able godly and learned Divines to consult with for that purpose and stood so much for a Reformation according to the Word and why else will they establish it if there be any other more agreeable to the Word so that whatsoever other Government after all debates and Reasonings is rejected and refused must be thought not to have such a ground in the Word for if it had why was it not established and owned but comes to seeke for a Toleration and Connivance Now then by vertue of many Scriptures both in the old and new Testament the Examples of the Kings of Judah in commanding and requiring all the people to yeeld to the Reformations made by them and in particular the Spirit of God commending Iosiah for making all Jerusalem and Benjamin to stand to the Covenant which he had made with God the fourth Commandement requiring of the Father of the Family that he see
all under his power and charge to worship God upon which learned Divines as Zanchius excellently show the dutie of Magistrates in reference to commanding and providing that their people shall worship God according to his will Rom. 13. 4. Ephes. 5. 11. 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2 Iohn 11. v. Revel 〈◊〉 20. with many other places in Scripture of removing away of evill and of not consenting to evill c the Parliament is bound to establish and to command obedience to that Reformation which is judged most agreeable to the Word and to suppresse and hinder all other It was excellently done by the Parliament to call together so many able godly and Orthodox Divines to debate and find out the mind and will of God for Doctrine Worship and Discipline and to give libertie to men of different judgements to bring in their grounds and after all wayes of enquiry and searching into truth and a Modell drawn up for them upon good grounds being satisfied 't is their dutie by their power and authoritie to bind men to the decrees of the Assembly and not to tolerate any other Doctrines Churches Worship or Government to be set up and exercised you ought not to suffer the weake to be destroyed nor the people to be drawn away by every wind of doctrine but when once upon good grounds the Reformation is concluded you must defend it against troublesome and turbulent spirits and in so doing God will be with you and subdue the people under you whereas if to please some people you suffer them to enjoy their own way God will not be well pleased with it neither can you answer it unto God You may lawfully nay ye ought in that which is good to compell men though they pretend conscience shall the errours of other mens consciences hindr you from yeelding that service which God requiteth of you may a Parliament displease God to please men or may they be pleaseâ—…s of other mens sins and wink at evill to content some persons No Parliaments in making lawes for Religion must depend on the will of God â—…led in his Word in the best and 〈◊〉 wayes communicated to them and not upon the consciences of some people 〈◊〉 The Toleration desired is against the solemne League and Covenant for Reformation taken by the Parliament and the Kingdome of England and Scotland and 〈◊〉 be coâ—…ed to without 〈◊〉 of that Oath and Covenant so that the Apologie and motion for a Toleration comes â—…o late the doore is shut against it the Kingdomes hands are bound so that if such a Toleration were not in itâ—… selfe unlawfull and against the dutie of the Magistrate yet now because of the Oath and Covenant 't is unlawfull so that whatever might have been granted before cannot now lest the Kingdome should be guilty before God of Covenant-breaking Now aâ—… Toleration and this moving for a Toleration by the Apologists is expresly against these branches of the Covenant 1. Against that clause in the first branch of endeavouring the Reformation of Religion in the Kingdomes of England and Ixeland in Doctrine Worship Government and Discipline according to the Example of the best Reformed Churches now in this Petition to both Houses you would be exempted from the Reformation of the best Reformed Churches so that unlesse you understand the Brownists New-England or your own Churches to be the best Reformed you have broken your Covenant but though you may understand it so and may be tooke the Covenant in that sense yet I suppose you cannot think the Paâ—…liament whom you sâ—… to for a Toleration took the best Reformed Churches in that acception but for the Reformed Churches so called and commonly knowne as of France c. so that their granting a Toleration would be against this clause of the best Reformed Churches 〈◊〉 't is expresly against another clause in the firsâ—… branch And shâ—…ll endeavouâ—… to bring the Churches of God in the three Kingdomes to the neerest Conjunction and Uniformity in Religion Confession of Faith Forme of Church Government Directory soâ—… Worship and Catechiâ—…ing Now if the Parliament hath covenanted so how can it grant a Toleration of so different a Forme of Church Government and Worship as the Independent way is from the Presbyteriall and how can you be excused from explicite formall breach of Covenant in this part of your Apologie having sworne and subâ—…bed to endeavour by all meanes to bring the Churches of God in these three Kingdomes to the neerest Conjunction and Uniformitie in Religion who in stead of so labouring and endeavouring or ever so much as trying whether you with the rest of the Churches may not be brought into a neere Conjunction and Uniformitie just before the time the Assembly was comming to fall upon these points in difference to put out this Apologie and to move for a Toleration before hearing what could be said to you for satisfaction or ever debating the points in the Assembly Is this to endeavour by all meanes to bring the Churches of God in the three Kingdomes to the neerest Conjunction and Uniformitie in Religion c. before so much as ever debating points to conclude magisterially as you doe in pages 22. and 24. against the Reformed Churches and to desire an exemption from Conjunction and Uniformitie with the rest of the Churches in this Kingdome 3. 'T is against that clause in the second branch that we shall in like manner without respect of persons endeavour the extirpation of schisme and whatever shall be found contrary to found doctrine and the power of Godlinesse lest we partake in other mens sins Now that which you move for is schisme and contrary to sound Doctrine the Church-way being a schisme besides many of your Church Principles are against sound Doctrine and the power of Godlinesse as that in your Apologie about the subject of Excommunication as that of a few people having power to joyne together and set up a Church and chuse what Ministers they will as that of the Independencie of particular Congregations from any Authenitative power c. so that the Parliament in the midst of their Reformation and blessed Conjunction according to the Word of God with the Reformed Churches should in allowing you a Toleration suffer a formall schisme both in Worship and Government in the midst of these Kingdomes 4ly This Toleration sued for is against a part of the fourth branch endeavouring the discovery of such as have been evill Instruments by hindring Reformation of Religion or making any faction or parties amongst the people contrary to this League and Covenant Now the Parliament is bound by this against all persons and things which hinder the Reformation and makes any faction or parties amongst the people now whether a Toleration granted yea but moved for would not hinder the Reformation of Religion and make Faction and parties amongst the people let it be considered I confesse I wonder how the Apologists ever took this Covenant or having taken