not sufficient to proue them eyther no Church at all holding as they doe fundamentall truth or a Church not so farre forth sanctified as they hold the same Which wee hope shall appeare plainely and clearely to all CHAP. II. What we thinke of those that line in the Communion of the Church of Rome ALthough I thinke it more needefull for euery man in particular to worke out his owne saluation than to be curious to know the estates of others and apprehending the mercy of God to his owne soule to cry out Domine quis ego sum Lord Iohn 21. 21. who am I that thou shouldest regard me with such fauour rather than like Pâ—ter of Iohn to aske Domine hic autem quid Master what shall hee doe as being too sollicitous of others Neuerthelesse wee who enioy the liberty of the Gospell cannot haue a better occasion to magnifie the goodnesse of God than by remembring Egypt from whence wee are deliuered nor they who are yet detained in the house of Bondage than by seeing their danger to hasten thence Errour in Religion may be no lesse pernicious to the soules of men than sinfulnesse of life and therefore doth so farre forth without Repentance exclude from all possibility of saluation The state of the Church of Rome not only now but for many hundred yeares past hath beene such that the Religion thereof in many parts of it hath beene hereticall and erroneous both for opinion and practice And therefore though the condemnation of some were more tolerable than of others some being Authors others receiuers some Masters others Schollers yet to all without exception from the idiot and handy-crafts man to the Pope and the Colledge of Cardinals plagues were due to our forefathers though they did but erroneously practise what the guides heretically taught If the blinde leade the blinde both fall into the pit of destruction Wee see the danger they all were in from the greatest to the least But was there no way of escape That which I named before Repentance only Repentance may be eyther actuall or generall Actuall Repentance is necessary for all knowne faults for those which wee through ignorance admit a generall Repentance will finde place with God By M. Hooker his discourse of iustification vertue whereof as many as hold the foundation which is precious though they hold it but weakely and as it were with a slender threed although they frame many base and vnsuitable things vpon it things that cannot abide the tryall of the fire yet shall they passe the fiery triall and be saued which indeed haue builded themselues vpon the rocke which is the foundation of the Church Our Fathers then holding the foundation of Faith which for the present I assume I doubt not but God was mercifull to saue thousands of them liuing in Popish superstitions in as much as they sinned ignorantly Yet do we not hereupon make Ignorance the Mother of Deuotion as it is obiected by some because we make â—urtenâ— 7. Vials them nearer to saluation who are held in errour not knowing it than those which pertinaciously defend it being knowne whose very want of learning may by accâ—dent conduce 〈…〉 cum liteâ—â—â— in â—arathrâ—m 〈◊〉 to their eternall good and make a way for them to the mercy of God whiles the others are left without excuse Nor yet because wee hope that God might be mercifull to some that liued in times of errour and blindnesse which it were no impiety to thinke though we had no reason for it are we of opinion That a man may bee saued in any Religion which to Bâ—rtoâ— iâ—id haue named only is sufficient refutation But to conclude let none embolden themselues vpon the mercy of God exhibited to our Fathers there is not the same reason of them and of vs they sinned ignorantly but the truth is now layd before our eyes they might bee saued by a generall Repentance for vs actuall Repentance is needfull Now the voyce from Heauen sounds more shrill in our eares than euer it did Come out of Apoc. 18. 4. her my people that yee be not partakers of her sins and that yee receiue not of her plagues This then beeing premised I will come nearer to the matter in hand viz. Whether they say well who affirme the Church of Rome to bee no true Church and if the Church of Rome deny the foundation of Faith CHAP. III. What we vnderstand by Church here THis terme of Church is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ambiguous and of doubtfull sense none more The ambiguity of the word hath serued some as a fit cloake vnder which they might both shroud their sleights and impostures and likewise â—vâ—nt their deceitfull wares Thus our Aduersaries of the Church of Rome vse the name oâ— the Church like Gorgons head to affright the simple and bring them into subiection no otherwise than the Iewes of old cryed the Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord who themselues of all others had most sacrilegiously polluted it And the Turkes at this day bragge of themselues that they are Muselmanni that is The only true beleeuers who hate euen to the very death Christ and Christian Religion Vnto others who delighted to find out the truth it hath giuen occasion more accurately to distinguish that they might neither enthrall themselues to euery company which boast themselues to bee the Church nor yet withdraw their due reuerence and obedience from the true Church when they haue found her out The word Ecclesia which signifies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Church in the latitude of the sense thereof may be applyed to signifie any company or congregation any combination or faction whatsoeuer but strictly taken and as it is ordinarily vsed in Scripture by the Church we vnderstand Gods Company the Congregation of the faithfull men called forth and set apart from the â—est of the world which the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 imports and become the Lords peculiar Now the Church which is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Lords portion or houshold hath a double acceptation there is the Church inuisible and the visible Church The Saints in heauen which are the Church triumphant and the true beleeuers vpon earth which are the Church militant these together make vp the inuisible Church which we call inuisible because for one part of it those which are dead in the Lord and receiued into Abrahams bosome they are farre remote from our sense wee see them not The true beleeuers vpon earth which make the other part of the inuisible Church howsoeuer wee are conuersant amongst them and behold their persons yet whether they bee indeede such as to vs they seeme is more than we can know and that their names are written in the Booke of life is a thing past our discerning The visible Church comprehendeth all Christians as many as farre and neare throughout the whole world are baptized into the name of Christ and professe the same
a day after the faire as it is a Visible Church we haue not detrested pag. 44. to haue Communion with it as Babylon we haue nothing to do with it He that before was too fine too wittie for you now speakes confusedly strangely You see we haue learned to distinguish betwixt the Church the great whore in the Church with the Church wee yet hold communion in many things though that from Babylon wee separated long agoe He whom I suppose you will not in hast teach to speake spake in this manner As the Apostle doth say of Mr. Hooker Eccles Pol. lib. 3 §. 1. Israel that they are in one respect enemies but in another beloued of God in lâ—ke sort with Rome wee dare not communicate concerning sundrie her grosse and grieuous abominations yet touching those maine parts of christian truth wherin they constantly still persist wee gladly acknowledge them to be the family of Iesus Christ and our hearty praier vnto Almighty God is c. Your distinction therefore of the Diuell in his Essence and as a Diuell with the rest of that stamp you were best lay vp till a deare yeare CHAP. VI. Of the charitable profession of zealous Luther AT length wee are come to consider the weight of zealous Luthers speech Wee confesse that vnder the Papacie is much good nay all yea the very kernell of Christianitie To this M. Burton answereth that be spake this pag. 45. before the Councel of Trent was hatcht and died when they began to be assembled It is well hee did so for had he liued but a while longer he had sure been a fauourer of Poperie as well as Caluin who liued after that Councell and yet confessed the Church of Rome to bee a true Church as wee haue shewed Yet by his leaue if this were true when Luther liued it is as true now If they haue added more errour yet haue they taken away no more truth otherwise than virtually and by consequence Luther thought it not likely or possible that the Church of Rome should bee much more corrupt than it was when hee published at Wittenberg so manie â—ropositions contrarie to the Romish Religion a Sleidan Com. lib. 1. And Hist of the Councell of Trent lib. 1. 95. in number which preâ—ently brought about his eares Teceâ—ius Eckius Siluester Prierias Hogostrat and I know not how many more Luther thought the Church of Rome wicked enough when hee affimred â—hat b â—tiam si nâ—hil praetâ—râ—a peâ—catum fuisset in doctrina Pontificia quà m quód docuerunt nos debâ—re vagaâ—i fluctuare amâ—â—â—ente duâ—ios de remissione peccatorum gratid salute noâ—tra iustas tamen haberemus causas cur ab Ecclesia infideli nâ—s seâ—ungâ—remus Luth ad cap. 41. Gen. If they could not haue bin blamed â—or any thing else but onely for teaching â—hat we must wauer and doubt and â—lwaies remaine vncertaine of the reâ—ission of our sins of grace and saluatiâ—n yet should we haue iust cause to separate from that infidelious Church Thâ— ground therefore of Luthers speecâ— was Not that hee saw not erroâ— enough but that he knew there wâ— likewise all truth Vnder it indeedâ— as our diuine Bishop obserueth oppressed ouerwhelmed yet there iâ— was The Councell of Trent haâ— ioyned Traditions to the Scriptureâ— making them together the rule â— Faith but before that time Luthâ— complained that hee could not haâ— audience out of the Scriptures bâ— the frigid decrees of Popes and thâ— fooleries of Schoole-men were obtruded in stead thereof In a word nothing was decreed in the Councel of Trent which Luther had nâ— gaine-said before that time So thâ— the errours are the same they were but established vnder a more peremptory forme CHAP. VII Of the Deane of Glocesters Authority BVt here the Authoritie of the Reuerend Deane of Glocester is Dr. Feild alledged in his Treatise of the Church Lib. 3. Cap. 47. and it is desired that hee may take vp the matter 7 Vialls pa. 45. Peace is amiable and the mediation of wise men is to vs very acceptable The Person is Reuerend neither will wee dissent from him in any thing without due respect had to his place and learning But wherefore when you are vrged with a cloud of witnesses in this very cause doe you 7. Vialls pa. 51. reiect them as priuate persons whose opinions must not prescribe against truth Caluin Bucer Beza Melanchton See the reuerend Bishops Apologie Mornay Deering Iunius Raynolds Param Hooker Perkins c. all these you sleight and would haue vs bee tryed by one onely who indeede is Reuerend but All these much more Yet as if hee distrusted this alledged Authour somewhere else hee wilâ— haue him to Vmpire the Cause in thâ— one place Feare not a wise man wilâ— not contradict himselfe and it is â— receiued Rule in reading both the Scriptures and the Fathers and 〈◊〉 Writers That the clearer places are to interpret those that bee more obscure But because you shall acknowledge your selfe in our debt we yeelde yâ—â— this request though vnreasonable but vpon this condition that if Dr Field be found to speake against yâ—â— rather than for you you neuer appeare more in this cause Courteoâ—â— Reader the passages are but short therefore reade and iudge The wâ—â—thy Deane bringeth in Bellarmâ—â—â— obiecting against vs that by the coâ—fession of our owne Writers Luther and Caluin c. the Church of Româ— is a true Church What now dotâ— he answer to this He saith not Tâ—â— before the Councell of Trent they were a Church but none since buâ— grants him That they might in some sense truely say that they were a true Church But saith he neyther Luther nor Caluin nor any of vs doe acknowledge that the Popish Religion is the true Religion or the Romish faction the Orthodoxe Church of God See then wee may affirme Rome to bee a true Church and yet the Romish cause gaine nothing by it for the Popish Religion is neuer a whit sooner the true Religion and though we giue this attribute to the Church of Rome yet the Romish faction is nothing the better for it for all this while they are not the Orthodoxe Church of God Where me thinkes the Deane giues more than we delire for wee haue alreadie distinguished betwixt the Church of Rome and the Faction of Rome and this we doe not hold to bee a Church at all much lesse the Orthodoxe Church of God He proceeds to speake of the Councell of Trent touching which hee layeth downe his opinion in these words The generall and maine Doctrine agreed vpon in the Councell of Trent in such sort as it is most generally conceiued is damnable But there are noe doubt some of a better Spirit The French receiue not the Councell of Trent to this day and haue in them particularly a better conceit of things than generally is holden So that the faith of the Councell of Trent is not
Christianis essent Haeretici audiebant nuper exortus nobis Tortus qui Christianos negat In former times Heretickes were not reckoned amongst Turkes or Iewes or Infidels much lesse amongst Diuels neyther were any called Heretickes but such â—â— were Christians of late some peruersâ— men are risen vp which deny them to be at all Christians But why must we not grant them to bee Christians Because they are not able to demonstrate themselues to bee such But what if they haue not all your facultie of reasoning demonstratiuely shall they be no Christians therefore Can no man bee a Christian except hee bee a Logician But it is further obiected that No Papist can vndoubtedly perswade himselfe that hee is a Christian Ibiâ— pag. 42. and this reason is giuen He is not certaine of the Priests intention in his Baptisme nor yet of the Bishops intention by whom that Priest was ordained Therfore no Papist can be sure whether he bee a Christian or no. Well then for answer to this first it is granted That admission into the Church by Baptisme maketh men Christians Christianitie maketh them a true Church So that all wee haue to doe now is to proue their Baptisme good which if we euince we haue gotten the day First then All that is alledged to make their Baptisme a nullitie is a possibilitie that the Priests intention might bee absent when they were baptized but à posse ad esse non valet consequentia from a possibilitie of the Priests not intending to his not intending actually the Argument followes not So that if this reasoning were found the most that can be concluded from thence is That perhaps Papists are no Christians It is vncertaine whether they be so or no now in things which are doubtfull we are not to learne which way charity should encline But secondly It is vnreasonable that another mans spite or ill-meaning should doe mee hurt Delictum cum capite semper ambulat That mens owne faults are their owne harmes is an vndeniable Rule of Equitie Thirdly It matters not whether the Baptisme according to their Tenents bee good or no you must proue it not to bee auaileable according to vs and according to the Word of God Wee are no Papists whatsoeuer you thinke of vs neyther will we betyed to their opinions There be two things essentiall to Baptisme the Matter and the Forme Water and the words of Christs Institution If with Water they were baptized In the Name of the Father the Sonne and the Holy Ghost their baptisme was good wee care not what become of the Priests intention But fourthly to come home to you Eyther the baptisme in the Church of Rome is true or not if it be true baptisme then haue we gained and you are ouercome if not then it must bee iterated when they turne to vs and so you rush vnawares into the exploded Heresie of rebaptization your ground being the same vpon which the Masters of that error built their opinion which See Hooker Eccles Pol. lib. 3 § 1. was That knowing how the Administration of Baptisme belongeth onely to the Church of Christ they thought that Heretickes are not at all any part of the Church and therefore rebaptized them Dum vitant Docti vitia in contraria Currunt But wherefore doe you now depart from your fore-alledged Classicall Author the learned Dr. Field See our reuerend Bishops Apology who saith that the Church of Rome ministreth the true Sacrament of Baptisme to the saluation of the soules of many thousand Infants This is too grosse an ouer-sight for him that promised nothing but substantiall reason demonstratiue proof Therefore be aduised against another time though the Priests wits bee a wool-gathering let not yours bee so But why trifle we Why should we grant Papists to be Christians Wherefore should not wee grant them that which wee cannot deny them For howsoeuer the Priest at the baptizing or the Bishop at the ordaining had another meaning yet the words Dr Chaloner creâ—â—â—â—â—les Sanct Catâ—ol wherewith they baptized and ordained beeing the words of Christ are to be taken in Christs meaning in as much as hee which receiueth a thing from another is to receiue it according to the intention of the principal Giuer and not the instrumentall Giuer He which conferres Baptisme and Orders as the Principall Doner is Christ the Bishop or Pastor conferres them onely as his Instruments See if this bee not the Catholicke Doctrine of the Church of England in the 26. Article But is it credible that Mr. Burton should bee all this while in iest For he addeth For the bare Name of Christians and a pag. 4â— Church wee will not stand with them What more doe wee require Why contend wee But he kickes it down againe with his heele So they doe not hereupon nor any for them incroach and challenge the beeing and reality yea or the very Visibility of a true Church When you make this sense wee will giue you an Answer The next page I wholly omit as iudging it vnfit for a Christian to vtter against any that beare the Image of God where he doth nothing but compare Papists with the Diuels making them worse contending that the Diuels are as good a Church as the Papists But the ill lucke is that hee cannot proue them Visible CHAP. X. How from the Councell of Trent Mr. Burton would proâ—e that the Church of Rome doth directly deny Christ Iesus TO draw to an end I come now to the head of the Cause wherein he would proue That the Church of Rome not by a circle of Consequence but ditectly denieth Christ Iesus Directly not by Consequence onely directly I say shee denieth pag. 51. and destroyeth the Foundation of Faith I haue borne with him all along hitherto but now I must craue pardon to challenge him for an egregious contradiction Directly not by Consequence onely Can the Foundation bee ouerthrowne both by consequence and directly too None can ouerthrow by Consequence vnlesse they hold directly and can any man both hold directly and deny directly Wherefore then doe you take the paines to proue both vnlesse you meane to declaime rather than to dispute and howsoeuer you would bee thought to neglect Rhetorique affect the praise of Garneades the great Orator who hauing one day preuailed in Court by his Eloquence would come the next day and as strongly mainetaine the contrary Cause Otherwise that which you first alledge to proue that the Church of Rome by Consequence ouerthroweâ— the Foundation destroyes that which you bring in the last place to make it appeare that shee denies it directly and that which would shew her to deny directly makes voyde all that proues her to deny by Consequence And so both former and latter reasoning fall to the ground being nothing worth But that you may confesse and the Readers may see thaâ— you haue a faire Aduersarie wee will pardon you all this and binde our selues to grant