trouble of a Rejoinder His first attempt in this chapter is upon a short discourse of mine in my processe which I professe not to be needfull to the purpose in hand relating to some later disputes about the nature of this Church wherein some had affirmed it to be a Genus to particular churches which are so many distinct species of it and others that it was a totum made up of particular churches as its parts both which in some sense I denyed partly out of a desire to keep off all debates about the things of God frō being enwrapped and agitated in and under Philosophicall notions and faigned tearms of Art which hath exceedingly multiplied controversies in the world and rendred them endlesse and doth more or lesse streighten or oppose every truth that is so dealt withall partly because I evidently saw men deducing false consequents from the supposition of such notions of this Church for the first way our Reverend Author lets it passe onely with a remarke upon my dissenting from Mr Hooker of New England which he could not but note by the way although he approves what I affirme A worthy note as though all the brethren of the Presbyterian way were agreed among themselves in all things of the like importance or that I were in my judgment enthralled to any man or men so that it should deserve a note when I dissent from them Truly I blesse God I am utterly unacquainted with any such frame of spirit or bondage of mind as must be supposed to be in them whose dissent from other men is a matter of such observation One is my Master to whom alone my heart and judgement are in subjection for the latter I do not say absolutely that particular Churches are not the parts of the Catholique visible in any sense but that they are not so parts of it as such so that it should be constituted made up by thē of thē for the order and purpose of an instituted Church for the celebration of the worship of God and institutions of Christ according to the Gospell which when our Author proves that it is I shall acknowledge my selfe obliged to him He saies indeed that it was once possible that all the members of the Catholique Church should meet together to heare one sermon c. But he is to prove that they were bound to do so as that Catholique Church and not that it was possible for all the members of it under any other notion or consideration so to convene But he saies they are bound to do so still but that the multitude makes it impossible Credat Apella that Christ hath bound his Church to that which himselfe makes impossible Neither are they so bound they are bound by his own acknowledgement to be members of particular Churches in that capacity are they bound so to convene those churches being by the will of God appointed for the seat of ordinances And so what he adds in the next place of particular Churches being bound according to the institution of Christ to assemble for the celebration of ordinances is absolutely destructive of the former figment But he would know a reason why 40 or more that are not members of one particular church but only of the Catholick meeting together may not join together in all ordinances as well as they may meet to heare the word preached and often doe to which I answer that it is because Jesus Christ hath appointed particular Churches and there is more required to them then the occasionall meeting of some any or all if possible of the members of the Catholick church as such will afford His reflexions upon my selfe added in that place are now growne so common that they deserve not any notice In his ensuing discourse if I may take leave to speak freely to our Reverend Author he wrangles about termes and expressions adding to and altering those by me used in this businesse at his pleasure to make a talke to no purpose The summe of what he pretends to oppose is that this universall church or the universality of Professors considered as such neither formally as members of the church Catholick mistically Elect nor as any members of any Particular Church have not as such any Church forme of the institution of Christ by virtue whereof they should make up one instituted Church for the end and purpose of the celebration of the Ordinances of the Gospell therein If he suppose he can prove the contrary let him cease from cavilling at words and by expressions which is a facile taske for any man to engage in and no way usefull but to make controversies endlesse and answer my Reasons against it which here he passeth over and produce his testimonies and arguments for that purpose This triviall ventilation of particular passages cut off from their influence into the whole is not worth a nut-shell but is a businesse fit for them who have nothing else to employ themselves about Coming to consider the union that I assigne to this Church after whose breach an enquiry is to be made which is the maine and only thing of his concernment as to the aime he hath proposed to himselfe he passeth it over very slightly taking no notice at all of my whole discourse frō p. 116. top 133. of my treatise wherein I disprove the pretensions of other things to be the union or bond of union to this church he fixes a very little while on what I assigne to be that union This I say is profession of the faith of the Gospell and subjection to Jesus Christ according to it to which he adds that they are bound to more then this viz to the exercise of the same specificall Ordinances as also to love one another to subjection to the same discipline and where it is possible to the exercise of the same numericall worship All this was expresly affirm'd by me before it is all virtually contained in their profession so far as the things mentioned are revealed in the Gospell only as to the celebrating of the same numericall Ordinances I cannot grant that they are obliged hereunto as formally considered members of that Church nor shall untill our Reverend Author shall think meet to prove that particular congregations are not the institutions of Jesus Christ But hereupon he affirms that that is a strange assertion used by me pa 117. namely that if there be not an institution of joining in the same numericall ordinances the union of this Church is not really a Church union This is no more but what was declared before nor more then what I urged the testimony of a learned Presbyterian for no more but this that the universality of Christians throughout the world are not under such an institution as that to assemble together for the celebration of the same numericall Ordinances the pretence of any such institution being supplied by Christ's acknowledged institutiō of particular Churches for that purpose What I have offered
an interest in this church of Jesus Christ Our Reverend Author professes that he hath but little to say to these things some exceptions he puts in unto some expressions used in the explication of my sense in this particular that which he chiefely insists upon is the accommodation of that promise Matth. 16. 28. upon this rock will I build my church to the Church in this sense which he concludes to belong to the visible Church of professors now as I am not at all concerned as to the truth of what I am in confirmation of to which of these it be applyed so I am far from being alone in that application of it to the Catholick Church which I insist upon All our Divines that from hence prove the perseverance of all Individuall believers as all do that I have met withall who write on that subject are of the same mind with me Moreover the Church is built on this rock in its Individuals or I know not how it is so built The building on Christ doth not denote a meer relation of a generall body to his truth that it shall allwaies have an existence but the union of the Individualls with him in their being built on him to whom the promise is made I acknowledg it for as unquestionable a truth as any we believe that Christ hath had and ever shall have to the end of the world a visible number of those that professe his name and subjection to his kingdome because of the necessary consequence of profession upon believing but that that truth is intended in this promise any farther but in respect of this consequence I am not convinced And I would be loath to say that this promise is not made to every particular believer and only unto them being willing to vindicate to the Saints of God all those grounds of consolation which he is so willing they should be made partakers of As to the union of this Church and the breach of it our Reverend Author hath a little to say because there may be some decaies in true grace in the members of this Church he affirms that in a sort there may be said to be a breach in this union and so consequently a schisme in this body He seemed formerly to be affraid lest all schisme should be thrust out of the world If he can retrive it on the account of any true believers failing in grace or falling for a season I suppose he needs not fear the losse of it whilst this world continues But it is fit wise and learned men should take the Liberty of calling things by what names they please so they will be pleasd withall not to impose their conceptions and use of tearms on them who are not able to understand the reasons of them It is true there may be a Schisme among the members of this church but not as members of this church nor with reference to the union thereof It is granted that schisme is the breach of union but not of every union much lesse not a breach of that which if there were a breach of it were not Schisme However by the way I am bold to tell this Reverend Author that this Doctrine of his concerning schisme in the Catholick invisible Church by the failings in Grace in any of the mēbers of it for a season is a new notion which as he cannot justify to us because it is false so I wonder how he will justify it to himselfe because it is new And what hath been obtained by the Author against my principles in this chapter I cannot perceive The nature of the church in the state considered is not opposed The union asserted not disproved the breach of that union is denyed as I suppose no lesse by him then my selfe That the instances that sōe Saints as mēbers of this Church may sometimes fail in grace more or lesse for some season that the members of this Church though not as members of this Church yet on other considerations may be guilty of Schisme concern not the businesse under debate himselfe I hope is satisfied CHAP. 7. OUr progresse in the next place is to the consideration of the Catholick Church visible Who are the members of this church whereof it is constituted what is required to make them so on what account men visibly professing the gospell may be esteemed justly devested of the priviledge of being members of this church with sundry respects of the church in that sense are in my treatise discussed The union of this church that is proper and peculiar unto it as such I declared to be the profession of the saving doctrine of the gospell not everted by any of the miscarriages errors or oppositions to it that are there recounted The breach of this union I manifest to consist in apostasy from the profession of the faith and so to be no Schisme upon whomsoever the guilt of it doth fall pleading the immunity of the Protestants as such from the guilt of the breach of this union and charging it upon the Romanists in all the waies whereby it may be broken an issue is put to that discourse What course our Reverend Author takes in the examination of this chapter the severalls of it whereon the strength of the controversie dothly is now to be consideed doth he deny this church to be a collection of all that are duly called Christians in respect of their profession to be that great multitude who throughout the world professe the Doctrine of the Gospell and subjection to Jesus Christ doth he denie the union of this church or that whereby that great multitude are incorporated into one body as visible and professing to be the profession of the saving doctrines of the Gospell of subjection to Jesus Christ according to them Doth he denie the dissolution of this union as to the interest of any member by it in the body to be by apostasy from the profession of the Gospell Doth he charge that apostasy upon those whom he calls Independents as such or if he should could he tolerably defend his charge Doth he prove that the breach of this union is under that formality properly Schisme nothing lesse as far as I can gather might not then the trouble of this Chapter have been spared or shall I be necessitated to defend every expression in my book though nothing at all to the main businesse under debate or else Independency must goe for a great Schisme I confesse this is somewhat an hard Law and such as I cannot proceed in obedience unto it without acknowledging his ability to compell me to go on further then I am willing yet I do it with this ingagement that I will so looke to my selfe that he shall never have that power over me any more nor will I upon any compulsion of useless needlesse cavils exceptions do so again so that in his reply he now knowes how to order his affairs so as to be freed from the
place to the Corinthians is not the only place wherein there is in the Scripture any mention of schisme in an ecclesiasticall sense or that the Church of Corinth was not a particular church is any thing of importance offerd to impaire the assertion that the evill reproved was within the verge of that church and without separation from it and do I need any more to make good to the utmost that which I have asserted but of these things afterwards In all that followes to the end of this chapter I meet with nothing of importance that deserves farther notice that which is spoken is for the most part built upon mistakes as that when I speak of a member or the members of one particular church I intend onely one single congregation exclusively to any other acceptation of that expression in reference to the apprehension of others that I denie the reformed Churches to be true churches because I denie the Church of Rome to be so and denie the institution of a nationall church which yet our Author pleads not for He would have it for granted that because Schisme consists in a difference among church members therefore he that raises such a difference whither he be a member of that church wherein the difference is raised or of any other or no suppose he be a Mahumetan or a Jew is a Schismatick pleads for the old definition of Schisme as suitable to the Scripture after the whole foundation of it is taken away wrests many of my expressions as that in particular in not making the matter of Schisme to be things relating to the worship of God to needlesse discourses about Doctrine and Discipline not apprehending what I intended by that expression of the worship of God and I suppose it not advisable to follow him in such extravagancies The usuall aggravations of Schisme he thought good to reinforce whither he hoped that I would dispute with him about them I cannot tell I shall now assure him that I will not though if I may have his good leave to say so I lay much more weight on those insisted on by my selfe wherein I am encouraged by his approbation of them CHAP. 5. THe third Chapter of my Treatise consisting in the preventing and removing such objections as the precedent discourse might seem lyable and obnoxious unto is proposed to examination by our Reverend Author in the third Chap. of his Booke and the objections mentioned undertaken to be managed by him with what successe some few considerations will evince The first Objection by me proposed was taken from the Common Apprehension of the nature of Schisme and the issue of stateing it as by me layd down namely hence it would follow that the separation of any man or men from a true Church or of one Church from others is not Schisme But now waving for the present the more large consideration of the name thing which yet in the processe of my discourse I do condescend upon according to the principle layd down I say that in the precise signification of the word and description of the thing as given by the holy Ghost this is true no such separation is in the scripture so called or so accounted whither it may not in a large sence be esteemed as such I do not dispute yea I afterwards grant it so farre as to make that concession the bottome and foundation of my whole plea for the vindication of the reformed churches from that crime Our Reverend Author reinforces the objection by sundry instances As 1. that he hath disproved that sence or precise signisication of the word in Scripture how well let the Reader judge 2. That supposing that to be the onely sence mentioned in that case of the Corinthians yet may another sence be intimated in Scripture and deduced by regular and rationall consequence Perhaps this will not be so easy an undertaking this being the onely place where the name is mentioned or thing spoken of in an Ecclesiasticall sence but when any proofe is tendred of what is here affirmed we shall attend unto it It is said indeed that if separation in Judgment in a Church be a Schisme much more to separate from a Church but our question is about the precise notion of the word in Scripture and consequences from thence not about consequents from the nature of things concerning which if our Author had been pleased to have staid a while he would have found me granting as much as he could well desire 3. 1 John 2. 19. is sacrificed {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} and interpreted of Schisme Where to make one venture in imitation of our Author All Orthodox Interpreters and writers of controversies expound it of Apostacy neither will the context or arguing of the Apostle admit of another exposition mens wresting of Scripture to give countenance to inveterate errours is one of their worst concomitants so then that seperation from Churches is oftentimes evill is readily granted of what nature that evill is with what are the aggravations of it a judgment is to be made from the pleas and pretences that its circumstances afford so farr as it proceeds from such dissensions as before were mentioned so far it proceeds from schisme but in its own nature absolutely considered it is not so To render my former assertions the more unquestionably evident I consider the severall accounts given of mens blameable departures ' from any Church or Churches mentioned in Scripture and manifest that none of them come under the head of Schisme Apostasy irregularly of walking and professed sensuality are the heads whereunto all blameable departures from the Churches in the Scripture are referred That there are other accounts of this crime our Author doth not assert he onely saies that all or some of the places I produce as instances of a blameable separation from a Church do mind the nature of Schisme as precedaneous to the separation What ere the matter is I do not find him speaking so faintly and with so much caution through his whole discourse as in this place all or some do it they mind the nature of Schisme they mind it as precedaneous to the separation so the summe of what he aims at in contesting about the exposition of those places of Scripture is this some of them do mind I know not how the nature of Schisme which he never once named as precedaneous to separation therefore the precise notion of Schisme in the Scripture doth not denote differences and divisions in a Church only Quod erat demonstrandum That I should spend time in debating a consideration so remote from the state of the controversie in hand I am sure will not be expected by such as understand it Pag. 77. Of my treatise I affirm that for a man to withdraw or withold himselfe from the communion externall and visible of any Church or Churches on that pretention or plea be it true or otherwise that the worship doctrine or
to church priviledges they are indeed in some places as to providentiall advantages of hearing the word preached but woe unto them on that account it shall be more tolerable for Mahumetans in that day of Christ then for them shall their Baptisme availe them though it were valid in its administration that is was celebrated in obedience to the cōmād of Christ is it not null to thē is not their circumcision uncircūcision shall such persons give their children any right to church priviledges let them if you please be so subjects to Christ as Rebells and Traitors are subject to their earthly princes they ought indeed to be so but are they so do they owne their Authority are they obedient to them do they enjoy any priviledge of Lawes or doth the Apostle anywhere call such persons as live in a course of wickednesse manifesting principles utterly inconsistent with the profession of the Gospell brethren God forbid we should once imagine these things so to be And so much for that chapter CHAP. VIII Of Independentisme and Donatisme THe Title of our Authors book is Independency a great Schisme of this chapter that it may be the better known what kind of schisme it is Independentisme is Donatisme Men may give what title they please to their books and chapters though perhaps few books make good their titles I am sure this doth not as yet nisi accusasse sufficiat Attempts of proof we have not as yet met withall what this chapter will furnish us withall we shall now consider He indeed that shall weigh the title Independentisme is Donatisme then casting his eye upon the first lines of the chapter it selfe find that the Reverend Author saies he cannot but acknowledge that what I plead for the vindication of protestants from the charge of schisme in their separation from Rome as the Catholick church to be rationall solid and judicious will perhaps be at a losse in conjecturing how I am like to be dealt withall in the following discourse a little patience will let him see that our Author laies more weight upon the Title then the preface of this chapter and that with all my fine trappings I am enrolled in the black booke of the Donatists but 1 quod fo rs feret feramus aequo animo or as another saith debemus optare optima cogitare difficulima ferre quaecunque erunt as the case is fallen out we must deal with it as we can 1. He saith he is not satisfied that he not only denies the Church of Rome so called to be a particular Church pag. 154. but also affirms it to be no Church at all That he is not satisfied with what I affirm of that Synagogue of Sathan where he hath his throne I cannot helpe it though I am sorry for it I am not also without some trouble that I cannot understand what he means by placeing my words so as to intimate that I say not only that the church of Rome is no particular church but also that it is no church at all as though it might in his judgment or mine be any Church if it be not a particular church For I verily suppose neither he nor I judg it to be that Catholick Church whereto it pretends But yet as I have no great reason to expect that this Reverend Author should be satisfied in any thing that I affirme so I hope that it is not impossible but that without any great difficulty he may be reconciled to himselfe affirming the very same thing that I do p. 113. It is of Rome in that sence wherein it claims it self to be a church that I speak in that sence he saies it is no church of Christs institution and so for my part I account it no church at all but he adds that he is far more unsatisfied that I undertake the cause of the Donatists and labour to exempt them from Schisme though I allow them guilty of other crimes But do I indeed undertake the cause of the Donatists do I plead for thē will he manifest it by saying more against them in no more words then I haved one do I labour to exempt them from Schisme are these the waies of peace love and truth that the Reverend Author walks in do I not condemne all their practises and pretensions from the beginning to the end can I not speak of their cause in Reference to the Catholick Church and its union but it must be affirmed that I plead for them But yet as if righteousnesse and truth had been observ'd in this crimination he undertakes as of a thing granted to give my grounds of doing what he affirms me to have done The first is as he saies His singular notion of Schisme limiting it only to differences in a particular Assembly 2. His jealousy of the charge of Schisme to be objccted to himselfe and party if separating from the true Churches of Christ be truly called Schisme A. What may I expect from others when so grave and Reverend a person as this Author is reported to be shall thus deal with me Sr I have no singular notion of Schisme but embrace that which Paul hath long since declared nor can you manifest any difference in my notion from what he hath delivered nor is that notion of Schisme at all under consideration in Reference to what I affirme of the Donatists who in truth were concerned in it the most of them to them to the utmost but the union of the Church Catholick and the breach thereof Neither am I jealous or fearfull of the charge ' of Schisme from any person living on the earth and least of all from men proceeding in church affaires upon the principles you proceed on Had you not been pleased to have supposed what you please without the least ground or colour or reason perhaps you would have as little satisfyed your selfe in the charge you have undertaken to manage against me as you have done many good men as the case now stands even of your own judgment in other things Having made this entrance he proceeds in the same way and pag. 164. laye's the foundation of the title of his booke this chapter of his charge of donatisme in these words This lies in full force against him and his party who have broken the union of our churches and separated themselves from all the protestant churches in the world not of their own constitution and that as no true churches of Christ this I say is the foundatiō of his whole ensuing discourse all the groūd that he hath to stand upon in the defence of the Invidious title of this chapter and what fruit he expects from this kind of proceeding I know not The day will manifest of what sort this work is Although he may have some mistaken apprehensions to countenance his conscience in the first part of his assertion or that it may be forgiven to inveterate praejudice though it be false namely that I and my party
that 's the phraseology this Author in his love to unity delights in have broken the union of their churches which we have no more done then they have broken the union of ours for we began our reformation with them on even tearms and were as early at work as they yet what coulour what excuse can be invented to alleviate the guilt of the latter part of it that we have separated from all the reformed churches as no churches and yet he repeats this again pag. 106. with especiall reflexion on my selfe I wonder not saith he that the Doctor hath unchurched Roome for he hath done as much to England and all forraign protestant churches and makes none to be members of the church but such as are by covenant and consent joyned to some of their congregations Now truly though all righteous laws of men in the world will afford recompence and satisfaction for calumniating accusations and slaunders of much lesse importance then this here publickly ownd by our Reverend Author yet seeing the gospell of the blessed God requires to forgive and passe by greater injuries I shall labour in the strength of his grace to bring my heart unto conformity to his will therein notwithstanding which because by his providence I am in that place and condition that others also that fear his name may be some way concern'd in this unjust imputatiō I must declare that this is open unrighteousness wherein neither love nor truth hath been observed How little I am concernd in his following parallell of Independentisme and Donatisme wherein he proceeds with the same truth and candor or in all that followes thereupon is easy for any one to judg He proceeds to scan my Answers to the Romanists as in reference to their charge of Schisme upon us and saies I do it sutable to my own principles And truly if I had not I think I had been much to blame I referre the Reader to the Answers given in my book and if he like them not notwithstanding this Authors exceptions I wish he may fix on those that please him better in them there given my conscience doth acquiesce But he comes in the next place to Arguments wherein if he prove more happy then he hath done in Accusations he will have great cause to rejoyce By a double Argument as he saies he will prove that there may be Schisme besides that in a particular Church His first is this Schisme is a breach of Union but there may be a breach of union in the Catholick visible church His second this where there are differenccs raysed in matter of faith professed wherein the union of the Catholick Church consists there may be a breach of union but there may be differences in the Catholick or among the members of the Catholick church in matter of faith professed Ergo Having thus laid down his Arguments he falls to conjecture what I will answer and how I will evade but it will quickly appear that he is no lesse unhappy in arguing and conjecturing then he is and was in accusing For to consider his first Argument if he will undertake to make it good as to its forme I will by the same way of arguing ingage my selfe to prove what he would be unwilling to find in a regular conclusion But as to the matter of it 1. Is Schisme every breach of union or is every breach of Union schisme Schisme in the Ecclesiasticall notion is granted to be in the present dispute the breach of the union of a church which it hath by the institution of Christ and this not of any union of Christs institution but of one certaine kind of union for as was proved there is an union whose breach can neither in the language of the Scripture nor in reason nor common sense be called or accounted schisme nor ever was by any man in the world nor can be without destroying the particular nature of schisme and allowing only the generall notion of any separation good or bad in what kind soever So that secondly it is granted not onlie that there may be a breach of union in the Catholick church but also that there may be a breach of the union of the Catholick church by a deniall or relinquishment of the profession wherein it consists but that this breach of union is sehisme because sehisme is a breach of union is as true as that every man who hath two eyes is every thing that hath two eyes For his second it is of the same importance with the first there may be differences in the Catholick church and breaches of union among the members of it which are far enough from the breach of the union of that church as such Two professors may fall out and differ and yet I think continue both of them professors still Paul and Barnabas did so Chrysostome and Epiphanius did so Cyrill and Theodoret did so That which I denied was that the breach of the union of the catholick church as such is Schisme He proves the contrary by affirming there may be differences among the members of the catholick church that do not break the union of it as such But he saies though there be Apostasy or Heresy yet there may be Schisme also but not in respect of the breach of the same union which only he was to prove Besides evill surmizes reproaches false criminations and undue suggestions I find nothing wherein my discourse is concerned to the end of this chap. pag. 109. upon the passage of mine we are thus come off from this part of Schisme for the relinquishment of the Catholick church which we have not done and so to do is not schisme but a sin of another nature and importance he adds that the ground I goe upon why separation from a true church he must meane the catholick church or he speaks nothing at all the businesse in hand is no schisme is that afore mentioned that a schisme in the Scripture notion is onely a division of jugment in a particular assembly But who so blind as they that will not see the ground I proceeded on evidently openly solely was taken from the nature of the Catholick church its union and the breach of that union and if obiter I once mention that notion I do it upon my confidence of its truth which I here againe tender my selfe in a readinesse to make good to this Reverend Author if at any time he will be pleased to command my personall attendance upon him to that purpose To repeat more of the like mistakes and surmizes with the wranglings that ensue on such false suppositions to the end of this chapter is certainly needlesse for my part in and about this whole businesse of separation from the catholick church I had not the least respect to Presbyterians or Independents as such nor to the differences betweē them which alone our Author out of his zeale to truth and peace attends unto If he will fasten the guilt of Schisme on any
hath lien neglected on booksellers stalls for above these seven years For the rest of those principles which he excepts against as he thinks meet I leave their consideration to that farther enquiry which the Lord assisting I have destined them unto The way of gathering churches upon a supposition of their antecedency to officers he saies is very pretty and loads it with the difficulty of mens comming to be baptized in such a case but as I can tell him of that which is neither true nor pretty in the practise of some whom he knowes or hath reason so to do so I can assure him that we are not concerned in his objection about baptisme and with them who may possibly be so it is a ridiculous thing to think it an objection And for that part of my enquiry whether the Church be before ordinary officers or they before it as sleight as he is pleased to make of it it will be found to lie very near the bottome of all our differences and the right stating of it to conduce to the composure and determination of them His charges and reflexions which he casts about in his passage are not now to be further mentioned we have had them over and over indeed we have had little else If strong vehement passionate affirmations complaints charges falfe imputations and the like will amount to a demonstration in this businesse he hath demonstrated Independentisme to be a great Schisme He shuts up his discourse as he began it reciting my words by adding interposing perverting commenting enquiring he makes them speak what he pleases and compasses the ends of his delight upon them What contentment he hath received in his so doing I know not nor shall I expresse what thoughts I have of such a course of proceedure This only I shall say it is a facile way of writing treatises and proving what ever men have a mind unto My last taske is to look back to the beginning of this last chapter and to gather up in our passage what may seem to respect the businesse in hand and so the whole matter will be dismissed The plea insisted on for immunity from the charge of Schisme with reference to the Episcopall Government of the Church of England and the constitution which under it it is pretended to have had he passes over though on sundry accounts his concernments ly as deeply in it as in any thing pleaded In that treatise The things he is pleased to take notice of as far as they tend in the least to the issue of the debate between us shall be reviewed Considering the severall senses wherein that expression the church of England may be taken I manifest in my treatise in which of them and how far we acknowledg our selves to have been and to continue members of the Church of England The first is as it comprises the elect believers in England what the unity of the Church in this sense is was before evinced our desire to be found members of this Church with our indeavour to keep the unity of it in the bond of peace was declared I am greived to repeat our Reverend Authors exceptions to this declaration saies he unlesse he think there are no members of this church in England but those that are of his formed particular churches I fear he will be found to break the union that ought to be between them And why so I pray The union of the members of the church in this sense consists in their joint union to with Christ their head by one spirit What hath the Reverend Author to charge upon me with reference thereunto Let him speak out to the utmost yea I have some reason to think that he will scarce spare where he can strike God forbid that I should think all the members of the Catholick Church in England to be comprised either jointly or severally in their Churches or ours seeing it cannot be avoided but you will keep up those notes of division I doubt not but there be many thousands of them who walk neither with you nor us He adds that by gathering saints of the first magnitude we do what lies in us to make the Invisible Church visible It is confessed we do so yea we know that that church which is invisible in some respect and under one formall consideration is visible as to its profession which it makes unto salvation This with all that lies in us we draw them out unto what he addes about the churches being elect and the uncomely parts of it which they may be for a season who are elect believers because it must be spoken are uselesse cavills For the scornfull rejection of what I affirm concerning our love to all the members of this church and readinesse to tender them satisfaction in case of offence with his insinuatiō of my want of modesty and truth in asserting these thoughts because he will one day know that the words he so despises were spoken in sincerity and with the reverence of the great God out of love to all his Saints I shall not farther vindicate them such hay and stubble must needs burn My next profession of our Relation to the Church of England in respect of that denomination given to the body of professours in this Nation cleaving to the Doctrine of the Gospell here preached and established by Law as the publike profession of this Nation But he tels me first 1. That many Independent Churches in this Nation are grosly apostatized from that doctrine and so are hereticall 2. That the worship was professed and protested and established as well as the doctrine and that we are all departed from it and so are schismaticall for we hold communion with them he sayes in the same doctrine but not in the same worship Answer His first exception ariseth from the advantage he makes use of from his large use of the word Independent which will serve him in his sense for what end he pleaseth In the sense before declared his charge is denyed Let him prove it by instance if he be able surely God hath not given orthodox men leave to speak what they please without due regard to love and truth 2. As to the worship established in this nation by law he means the way of worship for the substantials of it we are all agreed in I suppose he will not say a relinquishment of the practice of it is schisme if he do I know what use some men will make of his affirmation though I know not how he will free himselfe from being schismaticall for his renewed charg of schisme I cannot I confesse be moved at it proceeding from him who neither doth nor will know what it is His next indeavour is to make use of another concession of mine concerning our receiving of our regeneration and new birth by the preaching of the word in England saying could they make use of our preaching c. but the truth is when the most of us
by the free grace of God received our new birth through the preaching of the word neither they nor we as to the practice of our waies were in England so that their concernment as such in the concession is very small and we hope since in respect of others our owne ministry hath not been altogether fruitlesse though we make no comparison with them In rendring of the next passage which is concerning anabaptists and anabaptisme I shall not contend with him he hath not in the least impaired the truth of what I assert in reference to them and their way I cannot but take notice of that passage which for the substance of it hath so often occurred and that is this doth not himselfe labor in this booke to prove that the administration of ordinances in our assemblies is null our ordination null and antichristian For the proofe of which suggestion he referrs his Reader to page 197 of my book I confesse seeing this particular quotation I was somewhat surprised and began to feare that some expression of mine though contrary to my professed judgment might have given countenance to this mistake and so be pleaded as a Justification of all the uncharitablenesse and something else wherewith his book is replenished but turning to the place I was quickly delivered from my trouble though I must ingeniously confesse I was cast into another which I shall not now mention Page 167. we arrive at that which alone almost I expected would have been insisted on and quite contrary thereto it is utterly waved namely the wholebusinesse of a nationall Church upon which account indeed all the pretence of the charge this reverend Author is pleased to mannage doth arise Take that out of the way and certainly they and we are upon even termes and if we will be judged by them who were last in possession of the Reiglement of that church upon supposition that there is such a church still they are no more Interested in it then we yea are as guilty of schisme from it as we But that being set aside and particular churches only remaining It will be very difficult for him to raise the least pretence of his great charge But let us consider what he thinks meete to fasten on in that discourse of mine about a nationall church The first thing is my inquiry whether the denyall of the Institution of a nationall church which he pleads not for doth not deny in consequence that we had either ordinances or ministry amongst us to which I say that though it seemes so to do yet indeed it doth not because there was then another church state even that of particular churches amongst us with many kind reflections of my renouncing my ministry and rejecting of my jejune and empty vindication of their ministry which yet is the very same that himselfe fixes on he asks me how I can in my conscience beleive that there were any true ministers in this church in the time of its being nationall and so proceeds to inferre from hence my denying of all ministry and ordinances among them Truly though I were more to be despised then I am if that be possible yet it were not common prudence for any man to take so much paines to make me his enemy whether I will or no He cannot but know that I deny utterly that ever we had indeed whatever men thought a nationall church for I grant no such thing as a nationall church in the present sense contended about That in England under the rule of the prelates when they looked on the church as nationall there were true churches and true ministers though in much disorder as to the way of entring into the ministry and Dispensing of ordinances I grant freely which is all this reverend Author If I understand him pleads for and this he saies I was unwilling to acknowledge lest I should thereby condemne my selfe as a schismatick Truly in the many sad differences and divisions that are in the world amongst Christians I have not been without sad and jealous thoughts of heart lest by any doctrine or practise of mine I should occasionally contribute any thing unto them If it hath been otherwise with this Author I envy not his frame of spirit But I must freely say that having together with them weighed the reasons for them I have been very little moved with the clamorous accusations and insinuations of this Author In the meane time if it be possible to give him satisfaction I here let him know that I assent unto that summe of all he hath to say as to the Church of England namely that the true and faithfull ministers with the people in their severall congregations administring the true ordinances of Jesus Christ whereof baptisme is one was and is the true Church state of England from which I am not separated nor do I think that some addition of humane prudence or Imprudence can disanull the ordinances of Jesus Christ upon the disavower made of any other nationall Church state and the assertion of this to answer all intents and purposes I suppose now that the Reverend Author knowes that it is incumbent on him to prove that we have been members of some of these particular Churches in due order according to the mind of Christ to all intents and purposes of Church membership and that we have in our Individuall persons raised causelesse differences in those particular churches whereof we were members respectively and so separated from them with the condemnation of them or else according to his owne principles he failes in his brotherly conclusion {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} I suppose the reader is weary of pursuing things so little to our purpose if he will hear any further that Independents are schismaticks that the setting up of their way hath opened a door to all evills and confusions that they have separated from all churches and condemne all churches in the world but their owne that they have hindred Reformation and the setting up of the Presbyterian Church that being members of our Churches as they are members of the nation because they are borne in it yet they have deserted them that they gather Churches which they pretend to be spick and span new they have separated from us that they countenance Quakers and all other Sectaries that they will reforme a nationall church whether men will or no though they say that they only desire to reforme themselves and plead for liberty to that end If any man I say have a mind to read or heare of this any more let him read the rest of this chapter or else converse with some persons whom I can direct him to who talke at this wholsome rate all the day long What seems to be my particular concernment I shall a little further attend unto Some words for that is the manner of mannaging this controversie are culled out from pag. 259. 260. to be made the matter of farther contest Thus they lie in