well make an end of answering to this treatise because I haue ouerthrowne the maine strength of your discourse and discouered to all men that will not be wilfully blind the weaknesse of your reason but for the better satisfaction of the vnlearned I will follow you from Chapter to Chapter that the truth may the more easily be discerned A. D. CHAP. XI That the Church whose doctrine must be to vs the rule of faith must alwayes continue without interruption from Christ his time till the worlds end A. W. That there alwayes hath bene since the beginning of the world excepting perhaps the time betwixt the fall of our first parents and their faith in the Messiah that there is and alwaies shal be a Church viz. certaine men that are predestinate to life and actually beleeue in Iesus Christ it neuer came into any of our minds to be doubted of that there should be such a companie as you conceipt all the Papists in the world cannot proue A. D. §. 1. Considering what hath bene proued in the former Chapter about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope no Christian will deny but that so long as this Church doth continue we haue of it a sure pillar and a firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleef For either a man must deny that euer our Sauiour did make any such promise gaue such charge and commission left any such warrant set forth such a commaundement or thundred out any such threats as before is rehearsed which were to denie the Scriptures which scriptures are generally receiued by all Christians no otherwise then as they are the vndoubted word of God or else he must wrest the interpretation thereof both from that which the words of themselues naturally yeeld and also from the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world or else he shall be forced to confesse that which not I but Saint Paul hath said Ecclesia est columna firmamentum veritatis the Church is the pillar and ground of truth Onely it may perchance seeme to some of those that doe at this day oppose themselues against the authority of the Church that this was true for Saint Pauls time and perhaps for some three foure fiue or six hundred yeares after but not to be presumed vpon in latter times and namely when Luther began his reformation as they tearme it or now adaies A. W. Considering how weake your proofes haue bene as in the former Chapters so namely in the last about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope there is no reasonable man not only no Christian that will build his faith and saluation vpon so tottering a pillar and so slipperie a foundation But because you seeme to dote so much vpon your last Chapter I wil once againe be content to examine the substance of it as it is here repeated by you with some litle alteration Either we must denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted threatned or we must falsely interprete the scriptures or else we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our faith But we neither may denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commaunded threatned neither may we falsely interpret the Scriptures Therefore we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleefe First in general for your whole syllogisme if the cōclusion you intend were no other thē that you pretēd propoūd that the Church is the pillar groūd of truth as S. Paul saith there would be no question in this matter betwixt vs. For we haue learned to acknowledge the truth of all and euerie part of the scripture But the beginning of this Chapter sheweth that you meane by the Churches being the pillar and ground of truth that we may safely build our beleefe vpon the Churches authority which as I prooued in my answer to that Chapter is no part of the Apostles meaning In this sense must we take your conclusion Secondly in particular I denie your Maior because your disiunction is naught presuming a necessitie where there is none For neither we need to denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commanded threatned neither is there any cause why we should falsely interprete the Scriptures and yet we haue no reason to grant that our faith may safely be built vpon the authoritie of the Church No such thing as I haue shewed can follow vpon the words of scripture alledged by you Therefore we need not denie the promises charge warrant commandement or threatning of our Sauiour or else grant the Church such an vnlimited authority Neither will the true sense of those Scriptures either enforce or beare any such illation or conclusion touching the infallible authoritie of the Church And whereas you thinke to face out the matter with naming the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world my answer propounding the iudgement of many excellently learned and ancient writers of those places prooueth that to be but a vaine popish brag without all likelihood of truth especially since you that spare not to heape vp testimonies of Fathers when they are needlesse and to quote their bookes and chapters sometimes for a bare phrase alledge not so much as the name of any one author for the proofe of your interpretation of twelue seuerall places of scripture Your proffered seruice in helping vs with this distinction hath more shew of kindnesse then good meaning For it is not brought in to confirme our answer but to giue your selfe occasion of vttering that which you are taught to vrge for proofe of this question But we neither need your aide and haue good cause to suspect your fauours In a word your distinction is such as none of vs euer brought or would bring to answer those places of scripture We confesse that whatsoeuer was promised to the Church in those texts was promised for continuance to the end of the world but we say that the first promise was not concerning the Churches not erring the three last are particular to the Apostles at least for such a measure of teaching But what should I repeat that which was deliuered in the verie last Chapter The thing you harpe vpon though vntunably is that your Romish church or rather the Church of the East West were indeed the pillar and ground of truth for the space of some 600. yeares after Christ but afterwards fell away from that soundnesse of doctrine which before it had cleaued vnto Such a matter there is acknowledged by our Diuines yet no man saith either that the Church erred not in any point during that
kingdome which shall haue no end A. D. § 5. Lastly I might confirme the same with the testimonie of the ancient Fathers Origen Saint Chrysostome S. Bernard and especially of S. Austin who disputing against the Donatists saith thus as rehearsing one of their speeches Sed illa Ecclesia quae fuit omnium gentium iam non est perijt That Church which was of all nations is not now it is perished Vnto which their speech he answereth O impudentem vocem Accounting it great impudencie to say the Church is perished And in the same place he bringeth in the Church as speaking personally thus Quam diu ero in hoc seculo annuncia mihi propter illos qui dicunt Fuit iam non est apostatauit perijt Ecclesia ab omnibus gentibus Et annunciauit nec vacua fuit vox ista Quis annunciauit mihi nisi ipsa via quando annunciauit Ecce ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus vsque ad consummationem seculi How long shall I be in this world tell me in regard of them who say the Church indeed was but it is not now it is become apostata and is perished out of all nations And he told me neither was this word in vaine who told me but the way it selfe to wit Christ who saith I am the way when did he tell Behold I am with you vntill the end of the world A. W. Here is a flourish of names to little purpose especially since these authors you mentiō agree with vs about the true Church that consisteth only of the elect not as you teach of all sorts good and bad elect and reprobate so they make an outward profession of beleeuing But Austin condemneth the Donatists of impudencie for saying that the Church was in their time perished out of the world saue that it remained in a part of Africa amongst them that held with Donatus So would he crie out against you Papists if he liued at this day and heard you complaine that there is no Church in the world but only in Rome in those countries which depēd vpon the Church of Rome Onely Donatus his part as Austin calleth it was the Church with them and onely the Popes part is the Church with you You are not indeed as yet come so farre as they were because some other countries besides Italy are content to be ruled by your Pope but when it shal please God to leaue that strumpet the Church of Rome destitute of friends as her wound is vnrecouerable and she draweth euerie day nearer and nearer to her end then will you take vp the verie same complaint that the Donatists vsed and there shall be no Church at all but in Rome or where the Pope shall lurke in some other corner of the world We denie not that the Church to whom our Sauiour maketh that promise shall continue till the end of the world and we detest Donatus heresie in affirming that it was then to be found onely in Africa But as I said before what maketh this for the continuance of such a Church as you imagine This rather belongeth to the visibilitie and famousnesse of the Church whereof in the next chapter A. D. CHAP. XII That this Church which must be to vs the rule of faith as it must alwaies continue so it must also alwaies be visible A. W. It is yet to prooue and alwaies will be that there is any such Church as must be to vs the rule of faith what should we then striue about the continuance and visibilitie thereof But you must needs be answered according to the counsell of Salomon Lest you be wise in your owne conceit to the hurt of other A. D. §. 1. Now hauing prooued that the true Church of Christ must alwaies continue without interruption till the worlds end it remaineth that I shew also in what manner it is to continue to wit whether it shall alwaies be visible That is to say whether in all ages it was and shall be a companie of men who may be seene and in some sort plainely knowen to be that companie which men are to beleeue by faith to be the true Church of Christ or that it shall be sometime at least inuisible that no man can see those men nor know them to be that companie which we must beleeue to be the true Church of Christ A. W. That the Church of Christ must alwaies continue is a point that needeth no proofe that it is to continue without interruption if we did not beleeue alreadie we should neuer be driuen or perswaded to it by your weake reasons But as me thinks I must be faine to tell you oftner the continuance of the true Church without interruption makes nothing at all for that imaginarie Church of your deuising of the visibilitie whereof you intreat in this Chapter Wherein first you goe about to propound and expound the question then you make a shew of proouing it according to the conceit you haue of it In the propounding of the question for the readers better vnderstanding I must let him know that howsoeuer your words shall alwaies be visible seeme to tie the question onely to the time hereafter to come yet your meaning is to enquire whether the Church of Christ haue not alwaies since his first comming and shall not alwaies till his second comming be apparent and visible This is manifest by your exposition In all ages it was and shall be and by your proofes which at the least in your opinion concerne the whole Church of Christ euer since his comming in the flesh Your exposition rather darkens then cleares the State of the question For who would not thinke by your words that one part of the controuersie betwixt you and vs is whether the men the companie of whom is the church may at all times be seene or no as if we were so voide of sense as to imagine that men could be at any time except by miracle inuisible Do not your words imply thus much I pray you consider them a little with me The question is say you whether the Church be alwaies a companie of men that may be seene If you answer that I must adde that which followeth And in some sort plainly knowen to be that companie I replie that your selfe afterward make those two distinct parts of the question when you expound what is meant by Inuisible that no man say you can see those men nor know them to be that companie wherein you may reasonably be thought first to speake of those mens being seene and secondly of their being knowen to be such a companie But to make short and to speake plaine withall the question of the Churches inuisiblenesse is double First whether a man by his bodily sight can discerne who they are that be members of Christs mysticall bodie or no that is who be elect and who be not This we say herein you agree with vs
Scripture warrant to preserue life without denying their faith in the Lord Iesus or refraining to performe true worship to him though they did it secretly And thus much of your argument A. D. §. 5. Fourthly if the Church were not visible we could not fulfill that commaundement of our Sauiour wherein he said Dic Ecclesiae Tell the Church For how can wee tell the Church any thing if we cannot tell where to seeke it neither if we did by chance meete it could we know it to be the Church A. W. If the Church say you be not visible to al men at all times then can we not tell the Church according to our Sauiours commaundement But we must tell the Church according to his commaundement Therefore the Church must be visible to all men at all times That I may answer directly and plainly to your Syllogisme I must vnderstand what you meane by Church and we The Church may signifie in this place either the whole companie of the faithfull or seuerally euerie particular congregation which yet properly is not the Church but a Church So may the other word We be taken for All men whatsoeuer or onely for such as make profession of Religion Taking Church in the former sense I denie the consequence of your Maior We must fulfill that commaundement of our Sauiour though the whole companie of the faithfull be not at all visible For the charge is not to tell the whole company but the seuerall Churches whereof we are members I haue shewed this before I wil onely put you in mind of a learned Papists exposition formerly alledged We are not willed saith Brugensis to tell the vniuersall Church spread ouer the earth but that particular Church to which euery man is subiect and wherein he liues If by we you meane none but professors of Religion as our Sauiour Christ doth and as Brugensis and all other interpreters vnderstand it then howsoeuer you take the Church for the whole companie or the seuerall congregations I denie your consequence in that respect also The faithfull may tell their particular Churches whereof they are members though the Church be not visible to all men at all times It is enough if euery man know his owne Church to which he belongeth though he know not of any other in the world Your minor is vtterly false if as you must needs do according to that you intend you meane either all men or the whole Church For as I said before our Sauiours charge is neither to all men but only to Professors of Religion nor concerning the whole Church but particular congregations And so your fourth reason proouing the visibilitie of the Church at all times to all men by our Sauiours commaundement to tell the Church is of as small force as the former It is sufficient as I noted ere while for the fulfilling of this charge that euerie man know the Church of which himselfe is a member and which he is to tell and in this sort the Churches are alwayes visible A. D. §. 6. Fiftly it is certaine that once the true Church of Christ was visible to wit when it first began in Ierusalem in the Apostles and Disciples of our Sauiour Christ and that companie which by their preaching was conuerted to the faith But there can no reason be shewed why it should be visible then and not now If it were needfull to be visible then because otherwise it could not be a Church that is A Societie of men lincked together in the profession of one faith in the vse of the same Sacraments vnder the gouernment of lawfull Pastours for the same reason it must needs be visible now because as in the last Chapter is prooued there must be a Church now and therefore it must be a societie of men professing the same faith vsing the same Sacraments liuing vnder the gouernment of lawfull Pastours For all this pertaineth to the verie essence of the Church If also it were needfull to be visible then that those offices and functiōs which must be done in the Church might be wel performed to wit as there were in the Church some Pastors some sheepe as Saint Gregory Nazianzene saith some to commaund some to obey some to teach some to be taught some to feed the flocke of Christ some to be fed so that euerie one of these might do what pertained properly to his dutie it was needfull that the Pastors must know their sheepe and the sheepe their Pastours and that those that should teach and rule and minister the Sacraments must see and know them whom they were to teach and rule and to whom they were to giue the Sacraments And on the contrarie side the other had need to haue knowen those of whom they must be taught whom they must obey from whom they were to receiue the wholsome food of the holy Sacraments If I say this reason prooue that it was needfull then that the Church should be visible and knowen for the same reason it will be also needfull to say that the Church must be visible now and at all times For at all times there must be Pastours and sheepe in the Church being the sheepefold of Christ And at all times these Pastours must gouerne instruct and minister the holy Sacraments and the other must receiue gouernement instruction and the foode of the holy Sacraments at their hands And consequently there had need be some visible tokens at all times by which the Pastours may know their sheepe lest for want of this knowledge they may vnawares Dare sanctū canibus proijcere margaritas ante porcos Giue that which is holy to dogs and cast margarites before hogs which our Sauiour commandeth them not to do And on the other side there had need be some visible markes by which the sheepe may know and discerne their lawfull Pastors and true preachers from false teachers and intruding vsurpers For otherwise they could not tell whom to heare obey and whom to repaire to for the Sacraments and contrarie whom to take heed of as of false Prophets whose voice to neglect as of strangers and whose poisoned food of polluted Sacraments to reiect no lesse then a baite laid to kill them by theeues and robbers as it importeth greatly euery one to do If lastly it were needfull to be visible then that those which were out of it might ioyne themselues vnto it and become members of it thereby to participate the graces and benedictions which Christ our Lord communicated onely to it and to escape the deluge of eternall damnation wherewith all was sure to be drowned that were found out of it as it were out of another Noe his Arke this reason also requireth and vrgeth that the Church must be visible now and at all other times For if at any time it were not visible how could men that were out of it come vnto it Or how could they attaine saluation if they
any regard or knowledge of their being sent by the true Church This weake minor of yours is vnderpropt in each part with a pillar of the holy Scripture the former thus No sensuall man can obtaine the knowledge of diuine mysteries Euery man without faith is a sensuall man Therefore no man without faith can obtaine the knowledge of diuine mysteries If by obtaining the knowledge of diuine mysteries you meane assenting to the truth of God concerning saluation I grant your whole syllogisme and in this sense it was needlesse to proue that part of your minor In the other sense that a man cannot attaine to the knowledge of them but by faith which the words manifestly import I denie the maior for the reason before alledged but whatsoeuer your meaning be the Apostle saith no more but that a naturall man without the grace of God can neither once imagine any such meanes of saluation and other there is none nor acknowledge those meanes as true and sufficient Of the former the Apostle speakes in the ninth verse affirming that the means of saluation prepared by God for men are such as neither eye hath seen nor eare hath heard nor euer entred into any mans heart Of the latter is the place alledged by you where the word signifieth rather an approuing and receiuing then a perceiuing and the spirituall man whom he there opposeth to the naturall is said to discerne of spirituall things rather by acknowledging the truth of them then by vnderstanding the meaning of the word preached concerning them Your translation which I touched before where you terme hominem animalem a sensuall man is senslesse For who knowes not that by a sensuall man we meane a voluptuous man giuen vp to his pleasures and sensualitie But the Apostle speakes not of such onely but euen of the wisest and most vertuous that euer were amongst men without grace so that in his meaning as well temperate Xenocrates and learned Aristotle called for his knowledge natures darling vertuous Socrates and wise Solon as Sardanapalus Thersites Nero and such like are naturall men that is such as haue no grace of God but that shadow of it which remaineth in all men by nature and is helped by education and humane learning It is true that Animalis naturalis is not all one in nature yet doth Naturall better expresse the Apostles meaning then sensuall and generally all writers haue made an opposition in this sense betwixt Nature and Grace not betwixt Sensualnesse and Grace as you may see throughout Austins Prospers Ieromes and your owne Schoolemens writings Neither will it helpe the matter to say as you doe that Naturall wit in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses For sensuall signifieth not him that vseth his senses to the vnderstanding of this or that but him that is drowned in Sensualitie Besides naturall wit doth not vse the helpe of the outward senses alwaies in vnderstanding yea there are many and the most excellent pointes of Philosophie in which Sense hath nothing to doe as in the discourse of Reason and the knowledge of Logicke with all those hard and worthie Questions of the Soule and of God himselfe as farre as they are to be conceiued of by the light of nature If you will say that we learne these things partly by reading and hearing I aunswer both that we finde out many things in Philosophie of our selues by studie without anie helpe of Sense which rather is an hinderance to the soule in the search of such pointes and also that the knowledge we haue of diuine mysteries is first brought to vs and continually increased in vs by the same Senses of seeing and hearing else were your Church as good be without those preachers you so much brag of The other part of your Minor that faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church you prooue or rather endeauour to prooue in this sort If no man can beleeue without he heare nor heare without one preach and no man can preach except he be sent then Faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church But no man can beleeue without he heare nor heare without one preach and no man can preach without he be sent Therefore faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church I denie the consequence of your Maior and affirme that faith may be had without the teaching of the true Church though no man can beleeue without he heare c. For I haue shewed that some countries haue bene brought to beleefe without any such teaching by authoritie from the true Church I also referre the Reader to my answer to your Minor That place of the Apostle concerneth not the ordinarie ministerie of the word but the knowledge of the means of saluation which as the Apostle truly saith could neuer haue bene thought on by any man if it had not pleased God to giue notice thereof to the world by men appointed and authorised to that purpose by himselfe But of this place and matter I spake sufficiently before in this and in a former chapter A. D. §. 4. Thirdly true faith is included in the true Church and as it were enclosed in her belly as Saint Austin saith vpon those words of the Psalme Errauerunt ab vtero loquuti sunt falsa In ventre Ecclesiae saith he veritas manet quisquis ab hoc ventre separatus fuerit necesse est vt falsa loquatur Truth remaineth in the belly of the Church whosoeuer is separated to wit by difference in doctrine from this belly of the Church must needs speake false Therefore like as if a man had Gold in his belly we must first finde the man before we can come to see the gold it selfe so we must first by other markes finde out the true Church which hath the gold of true faith hidden in her belly before we come to see the gold of true faith it selfe Sith especially we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it vnto vs and that we cannot being spiritually blinde certainely know it to be true and not counterfeit but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it According as the same Saint Austin saith Euangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae authoritas commouerer I should not beleeue the Gospell it selfe vnlesse I were mooued by the authoritie of the Church For if we had not the testimonie of the Church how should we haue bene infallibly sure that there were any Gospell at all Or how should we haue knowen that those bookes which â—eare title of the Gospell according to Saint Mathew Marke Luke and Iohn are true Canonicall Scripture rather then those bookes which are written in the name of Nicodemus and Saint Thomas bearing the same title or inscription of Gospell A. W. Your third reason is thus to be framed That which is shut vp in the belly
contradictions if it fall out as sometimes it doth that one man preach contrarie to that which an other hath taught Sixtly the Lord hath imparted the scriptures and enioyned the search of them as well to priuate men as to Pastors and Doctors Seuenthly and last blinde people shall perish euerlastingly with their blinde guides and therefore it cannot be but that God hath giuen them libertie to trie the spirits that they that will not may haue no excuse for their erring but be iustly damned The place you bring out of the epistle to the Ephesians doth not prooue that Pastors Doctors only are to examine spirits though this belong in speciall sort to them whom the holy Ghost hath made ouerseers of the flocke of Christ Gods end in appointing them is that we should not be carried away with euery blast of doctrine but we must needs be so carried if we receiue without choise whatsoeuer is deliuered They are helpers of our faith not Lords ouer it Their dutie it is to teach vs how to discerne of true doctrine and to perswade vs to embrace it not to enforce vs to giue credit to all they say Thus haue I answered all those arguments that you thought good to propound all which notwithstanding our conclusion standeth sound and firme that true doctrine in points fundamentall is a certaine and necessarie marke of a true Church of Christ A. D. CHAP. XV. That these foure Vna Sancta Catholica Apostolica that is to say One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke are good markes by which men may know which is the true Church A. W. The second maine part of your whole treatise is this that they which professe the Romane faith are the true Church Your proofe is that To them onely the certaine markes whereby the Church is to be knowne belong Which that you might make cleare vnto vs you reason in this sort They onely who are One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church may be knowne belong But they onely that professe the Romane Religion are they who are One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church Therefore they onely that professe the Romane Religion are they to whom the markes by which the true Church is to be knowne belong The Maior of this syllogisme you seeke to prooue in this Chapter by shewing that these properties are good markes to know the true Church by Now properties if we shall speake properly according to Logicke are Accidents or Adiuncts agreeing to euery particular of that kinde wherof they are properties and that alwaies neuer at any time to any thing of any other kind Therefore the properties of a true Church must be such as agree to euerie true Church at all times at no time to any other Church or thing but to a true Church only These the Logicians call Propria adiuncta or propria quarto modo Whether these foure alledged by you be such or no taking thē according to your sense we shal see in examining your proofe That in some sense they are certaine markes of a true Church we make no question A. D. §. 1. Sith our Sauiour Christ hath thought good to plant a visible Church vpon earth which he would haue to continue vntill the worlds end for this speciall intent and purpose that all men in all ages by meanes of it may learne the doctrine of the true faith the true worship of God the right vse of the Sacraments the wholsome lawes of good life and generally all good things that appertaine to the glorie of God and the saluation of our soules we haue not any reason to doubt but that the same our Sauiour for the exceeding loue which of his part without exception or respect of persons he beareth to all mankind hath ordained some markes or notes by which all sorts and consequently euen simple men may sufficiently discerne which companie among many which challenge to themselues the title of the true Church is indeed the true Church For sith he would haue euerie one to heare and learne things necessarie to saluation onely of the true Church we must needs thinke his wisedome and goodnesse to haue marked this his Church with such manifest signes and properties that all men may easily know it and discerne it from others whom he knew would take vpon them though falsely the title and profession of the true Church This seemeth to haue bene expresly foretold by the prophet Isaias when he saith Scietur in gentibus semē eorum germen eorum in medio populorū Omnes qui viderint eos cognoscentillos quia isti sunt semen cui benedixit Dominus Their seed shall be knowne in the nations and their of spring in the midst of the people all that shall see thē shall know them because these are that seed which our Lord hath blessed Which is as much as if he should say that the Church shall haue such manifest markes that it shall be easie for euerie one to know them to be the true Church Some of these markes are set downe by Saint Austin who calleth them bands or chaines which do hold a faithfull man in the Catholicke Church although for the slownesse of his wit or for some other cause he doth not euidently see the truth of the doctrine in it selfe A. W. Ere you come to prooue that which you haue propounded you fall into an vnnecessary discourse about the marks of the Church wherein first you prooue as you can that our Sauiour hath left certaine markes whereby all men in all ages may know the true Church Secondly you set downe some names of these markes giuen them according to the effects they worke in men The proofe of your former point lieth thus If our Sauior haue planted a visible Church vpon earth to the end that all mē in all ages might learne of it only all good things appertaining to the glory of God their own saluatiō thē he hath ordained marks by which euery mā may know the true Church But our Sauiour hath to that end planted a visible Church Therfore he hath giuē marks by which euery mā may know c. Though there be nothing in this proofe which hath not bene answered already yet I mull be faine to say something to it I denie the Minor hauing shewed in answer to the fift chapter that it neuer was Gods purpose to haue euery particular man partaker of saluatiō by Iesus Christ Now it is needlesse to adde that our Sauiour being sent by God with perfect knowledge of his purpose would not intend any thing contrarie to the will of his Father or otherwise then he was directed by his commission I pray not for the world but for them that thou hast giuen me out of the world All this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace Therefore visible Churches for to dreame of any one vniuersall visible Church is against
course of yours The question is whether the true Church be with you or with vs. You tell vs we shall know that by seeing whether you or we haue the markes of the true Church we accept of this triall How shall we informe our selues what these markes are Tush say you for that matter you must be ruled by the Councels Why but the Councels as you would make vs beleeue were wholly for you and consisted of Popish Bishops what reason haue we then to stand to their iudgment in a controuersie betwixt you vs You will answer that we say they were not Popish We say so indeed and haue prooued it in diuers points as occasion hath bene offered But we adde further that these Councels might erre you denie it How will you perswade vs the contrarie When all is done we must come to triall by the Scriptures or else take your word for it And is it for all this precisenesse to require proofe out of the Scriptures of those marks you would prooue your Church by I haue shewed before that there is no means to know certainly there is any Church of Christ or any Christ but by the Scriptures Are not the Scriptures then the fittest meanes to teach vs by what marks this Church may be knowne The Councels tell vs what they are Who told them the holy Ghost Let it be so But how did he tell them by some reuelation vtterly beside the Scriptures or by truth in the Scriptures If the former we aske how we may be so perswaded The church tels you so Yet again the church How knows the church that they had such reuelatiō What help now but about again to the scriptures Thinke not much then if in this questiō cōcerning the marks of the church we desire to be taught by the Scriptures what those markes are especially since as you professe you may do it so easily but I am afraid you will do it with more ease then truth A. D. §. 3. The true Church is signified to be one by those words of the Canticles Vna est columba mea if we will beleeue the exposition of Saint Cyprian and S. Austin Also we may gather the same out of those words of our Sauiour in which he calleth his Church vnum ouile one sheepfold Also by those places of S. Paul where he termeth the Church vnum corpus one bodie Moreouer Christ our Sauiour praying for his Church did specially intreate and without doubt obtained vt omnes vnum sint that all the members thereof should be one thing to wit that at the least they should all professe one and the same faith all partake of one and the same baptisme and other sacraments all liue vnder one and the same Lord in due subordination and subiection to that vniforme and orderly gouernment of lawful pastors ordained and appointed in the Church by him The true Church of Christ therefore is one Contrary the conuenticles of hereticks are destitute of this marke of vnitie according as Tertullian affirmeth saying Denique penitus inspectae haereses omnes in multis deprehenduntur cum auctoribus suis dissentientes Finally all heresies if they be wel looked into are found to differ in many things from their first founders And the reason of this disagreement among heretickes the same Tertullian assigneth very well in the same place saying Variant inter se haeretici dum vnusquisque pro suo arbitrio modulatur quod accepit quemadmodum ea pro arbitrio composuit ille qui tradidit Heretickes do differ in points of doctrine among themselues while as euery one taketh vpon him to fashion the faith which he receiued according to his owne liking or fancie like as he that first deliuered it vnto them did inuent it according to his owne will and pleasure A. W. We are now come to the very point for proofe of your maior that they onely who are one holy Catholick Apostolick Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church is to be knowne belong To make this proofe good you dispute in this manner If One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke be good marks to know the true Church by then they onely who are One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church may be knowne belong But those foure properties One Holy Catholick Apostolick are good markes by which the true Church may be knowne Therefore they onely who are One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church may be knowne belong The consequence of your maior is but weake For these foure properties may be good markes to know the true church by that wheresouer we see them we may be sure there is a true church and yet there may also be some true church where they are not I dispute not whether the true Church may be without these but denie that because these where they are are good markes therefore there is no true Church where these are wanting This proposition though your proofe be lame without it you wholy omit and so propound vs a reason which we need not yeeld to though you were able to proue the minor neuer so sufficiently Your minor as before I answered is true if we rightly vnderstand the meaning of those seuerall properties But the proofe you bring is scarce warrantable All properties of the Church belonging onely thereto and apparent to be seene where they are are good markes to know the Church by But these foure properties are such Therefore these foure are good markes to know the Church by There is a third thing omitted by you necessarily required to make any propertie a good marke viz. that it be such as alwayes agrees to the Church For otherwise it can serue as I answered to your former proposition but only for the halfe dutie of a marke because at some times I may see the Church and not know it for all this marke If I find these properties I may assure my selfe that I haue found the true Church because these neuer are but in the true Church yet if the true Church may at any time be without these as it may for ought contained in your maior then missing my marke I shal be vnable to discerne of the true Church This minor for the first part of it is true in such sense as I granted the former these properties rightly vnderstood belong onely to the true Church If the latter part also be true that they are apparent to be seene doubtlesse truth of doctrine which maketh the Church one must needs be a certaine marke of the true Church though you denie it that prerogatiue Let vs now see how you proue the parts of your minor with this prouiso that though you do proue them yet you are little the nearer because diuers former propositions vpon which this depends remaine still vnproued by you It is a propertie belonging
the latter part of that you should proue is quite omittted that it is no hard matter for any simple man to discerne which Church is Apostolicke which is not If you make not this cleare you proue nothing and yet euery man may see that it is a matter of no small studie nor short time to examine what Churches were first founded by the Apostles and haue had an orderly succession without interruption from time to time yea when a man hath made the best search he can what hath he to rest himselfe vpon but the report of men who might deceiue and be deceiued And yet this ado euery poore soule must haue before he can tell to what Church he may ioyne himselfe for his spirituall instruction in matters concerning euerlasting life You will aske what course we take for a mans direction in this case Surely the very same which the Scriptures testify we ought to follow We propound out of the Scriptures the meanes of saluation we giue our people libertie to examine that we deliuer by the touchstone of truth the same Scriptures of God we desire not to haue any credit giuen to that we teach as a matter of faith but so far forth as we can proue it manifestly by the word of God Thus we begin with men thus we continue leauing the successe of our poore ministery to the blessing of Gods Spirit in the hearts of them that vouchsafe vs the hearing But for better direction in the triall of our doctrine wee giue this rule that true religion first respects the glory of God and then the present comfort and euerlasting saluation of them that professe it Whether course yours or ours be more reasonable and more agreeable to Scripture I leaue it to the consideration of al men whom it doth concerne and returne to the examining of your proofe whereof there are these two parts that the true Church is Apostolicke that no conuenticle of heretickes can be Apostolicke Of the former thus you dispute If euery true Church must haue such a foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had and she had her foundation from the Apostles then euery true Church must haue her foundation from the Apostles But euery true Church must haue such a foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had and she had her foundation from the Apostles Therefore euery true Church must haue her foundation from the Apostles I would make no question of any part of your Syllogisme if by foundation from the Apostles you vnderstood nothing but Apostolicall doctrine which is indeed the maine foundation of all true Churches but you afterward expound your meaning and acknowledge no foundation from the Apostles but by the ministery of such as can deriue their succession from the Apostles without any interruption In this sense therefore I denie your minor because the former part of it is false For euery true Church hath not nor need haue to make it a true Church such foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had Yea though we doubt not but that the Ephesiās were conuerted to the faith by some of the Apostles and perhaps by the Apostle Paul yet we doe not beleeue that the Apostle in the place alledged by you speakes of any such foundation but of the truth of doctrine taught by the Apostles This may appeare because the Apostle makes the Prophets their foundation as wel as the Apostles But certaine it is that neither the Prophets nor any by succession from them laid the foundation of the Gospell amongst the Ephesians He meanes saith Theodoret the Prophets of the old Testament not of the new lest you should cauill about the name Prophets Besides the foundation of the Apostles must be conceiued as our Sauiour Christ is the corner stone to the Ephesians not because he preached to them but for that they rested vpon him as a corner stone the doctrine of the Apostles being the foundation And if we will tie this to the persons that deliuer the doctrine then to be the foundation is so proper to the Apostles as that it cannot agree to any other man whatsoeuer how Apostolicke soeuer he may be imagined to be For this was their speciall honor aboue all other Christians Thus doe the best interpreters expound the place Vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles that is saith Ambrose vpon the new and old Testament For that which the Apostles preached the Prophets foretold As for the Prophets of the new Testament They saith Ambrose are for the ordering of the Church founded and not for the founding of it Vpon Christ saith your Glosse or vpon the doctrine of the Apostles So Lyra Vpon the doctrine of the new and old Testament With whom Lombard agreeth though he expound it also of Christ So doth Thomas Vpon their doctrine So doth Caietan vnderstand it that a man may wonder at your ignorance or boldnesse in going against the streame of your owne Doctors without any shew of reason for it Wherefore if your minor intend no more but that euery true Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles in respect of their doctrine no exception could be taken against it For other foundation no man can lay but Iesus Christ according to the preaching and prophesying of the Apostles and Prophets This foundation had the Church of Ephesus and in this must euery true Church agree with it But you apply this to I know not what dependance of succession which hath no kinde of warrant from that place of the Apostle To supply your want of proofe from the Scriptures that euery true Church must haue her foundation from some Apostle or some man who can fetch his pedegree without interruption from the Apostles you seeke to draw in Tertullian for a witnesse of your error Let vs heare his depositiō The Apostles saith Tertullian founded Churches in euery citie Here to helpe your selfe you adde this glosse To wit either immediatly by themselues or by meanes of other What reason is there that he that is a partie in the suite should haue the expoūding of the witnesses meaning Tertullian saith the Apostles founded Churches you tell vs he meanes they did so by themselues or by others How shall we know that you are so priuy to his meaning If you ground your exposition vpon those words in euery citie whereas the Apostles came not in diuers cities that were then in the world I pray remember that there were at that time many cities into which we are not sure that the Gospell had before Tertullians time bin receiued The learned man may speake in generall and yet with speciall relation to those places which were then knowne to be Churches founded by the Apostles as Ierusalem Antioch Rome Alexandria Ephesus c. He addes farther that From these Churches founded by the Apostles other Churches afterward had borrowed and in his time dayly
and worship of their Images Your idle distinctions of Idoll and Image of seruice and worship of religious and ciuill worship I haue otherwhere examined and refuted If you say that you worship not the Image it is too manifestly apparent as a ruled case amongst you that the Image must haue the same worship that belongeth to the thing whose Image it is But you do not take the Images to be Gods If you speake of all your ignorant people I scarce beleeue you But this maketh no difference in worship The heathen at least the learned and wiser sort of them did not hold their Idols to be Gods but representations of their Gods And you Papists in making them mediators of intercession and so acknowledging but one God do little better then the Pagans for they had but one soueraigne God Iupiter who commaunded all the rest Not onely Dij minorum gentium their Gods of the third and fourth forme but also those of the second and first as Hercules Apollo Venus yea and Iuno her selfe too who was both wife and sister to Iupiter depended vpon him and were glad to be mediators of intercession to him for their fauorites as is euerie where to be seene in Homer and Virgil All the difference of any moment that I perceiue is that some of the heathen Gods were imagined to be such by nature and all your Diui or Saints pety-gods haue both their places and offices by fauour But I am wearie of these abhominations and fooleries of yours The Pastors of the Church being imployed in withstanding manifest and dangerous heresies neither did nor could though they slept not perceiue and reprooue euery errour yea it is more then likely that they were content to beare with many things as long as the maine points were held soundly least by striuing for matters of lesse weight greater things should be neglected and they that erred in small things vpon resistance quite fall away to ioyne with the heretickes This in the beginning for some fiue hundred yeares was the estate of the Church And afterward plentie bred pride and idlenesse the chalices were turned into gold and Priests into wood or lead that partly ignorāce partly slothfulnesse gaue the diuell opportunitie to sow what errours he would in the middest of the Church If any man of more learning or grace thē the ordinary sort perceiued and reprooued the errours of his time he was by one means or other suppressed or disgraced all mē their writings especially after the reuealing of Antichrist being at the deuotion of your persecuting Cleargie Yet did not Almighty God leaue his truth without witnes as it appeareth by record of them who from time to time misliked and withstood your Antichristian doctrines These are no dreames of a proud man in his sleepe but likely coniectures or rather apparent truthes as any indifferent man may discerne and will confesse To shut vp the matter you be take your selfe to your generall Rendez-vous of the Church which forsooth if those former imputations were true should haue erred and so the holy Ghost haue neglected his office which your Pope hath assigned him to keepe the vniuersall Church from erring It had bene well your Antichrist would haue contented himselfe with his saucinesse toward his Lord Saint Peter in appointing him to the Portership of heauen gates and not haue presumed to enioyne the holy Ghost also such an office as our Sauiour neuer committed to him The charge our Sauiour left with that his glorious Lieutenant specified in that part of his Patent which you glance at was not concerning the vniuersall Church a thing in your sense not once signified in the Scriptures but touching the Apostles absolutely and all true Christians in generall and particular for matters necessarie to saluation This accordingly hath alwaies bene performed no man that euer truly beleeued in Iesus Christ hauing fallen into any such errour as might vtterly seuer him from the bodie of the true Church that is the company of the elect beleeuers wherof our Sauiour Christ is the head as I haue shewed in my speciall answer to these places before But Tertullian saith that the holy Ghost had neglected his dutie if the Church had vniuersally erred in such important matters Tertullian speaketh not of any vniuersall Church but of seuerall particular Churches which you grant may erre and yet the holy Ghost not faile in his commission Besides Tertullian himselfe saith otherwhere that the Church may be preserued in one or two and therefore your Catholicke Church of Rome might well fall into such grosse heresies without any disgrace to the Spirit of God A. D. §. 7. § IIII. That the Romane Church onely is Apostolicke Fourthly I find that the Protestants Church is not Apostolick because they cannot deriue the pedegree of their Preachers lineally without interruption from the Apostles but are forced to acknowledge some other as Luther or Caluin or some such for their first founders in this their new faith from whom they may perhaps shew some succession of the preachers of their faith but they can neuer shew that Luther or Caluin themselues who liued within these hundred yeares did either lawfully succeed or was lawfully sent to teach this new faith by any Apostolicke Bishop or Pastor Nay Luther himselfe doth not onely confesse but also brag that he was the first preacher of this new found faith Christum à nobis primò vulgatum audemus gloriari saith he We dare boast that Christ was first published by vs. For which his glorious boasting me thinkes he deserueth well that title which Optatus giueth vnto Victor the first bishop of the Donatists to wit to be called filius sine patre discipulus sine magistro a sonne without a father a disciple without a maister On the contrary side the Romane Church can shew a lineall succession of their Bishops without interruption euen from the Apostle Saint Peter vnto Clement the eight the Bishop of Rome which liueth at this day The which succession from the Apostles which we haue and the Protestants want the auncient Fathers did much esteeme and vsed it as an argument partly to confound the hereticks partly to confirme themselues in the vnitie of the Catholick Church So doth Irenaeus who saith Traditionem ab Apostolis annunciatam hominibus fidem per successiones Episcoporum peruenientem vsque ad nos indicantes confundimus omnes illos qui quoquo modo vel per sui placentiam malam vel per vanam gloriam vel per caecitatem malam sententiam praeterquà m oportet colligunt Shewing the tradition from the Apostles and the faith comming vnto vs by succession of Bishops we confound all them who any way through euill complacence of themselues or vaine glorie or through peruerse opinion do collect and conclude otherwise then they ought So also doth S. Austin who saith Tenet me in Ecclesia Catholica ab
Leo faith that is true is a strong bulwarke to which faith nothing may be added by any man from which nothing may be taken because vnlesse it be one it is not faith sith the Apostle saith one Lord one faith one baptisme Is it not euident that he speakes of the points of faith that are to be beleeued For to them may a man adde I speake of power not of lawfulnesse from them may he take wheras the qualitie of faith seated in the soule is free from all such danger The learned father had found by experience that hereticks from time to time tooke vpon them to diminish and augment the faith of the Church that is the articles of religion and therefore denieth them to haue any faith that hold not firmly and onely the truth of doctrine according to the faith of the Church agreeable to Scripture A. D. §. 3. Omni studio saith S. Hierome Laborandum est primùm ocurrere in fidei vnitatem We must labour with all diligence first to meete in the vnitie of faith A. W. Ieroms testimonie wherein either the printer or you reade vnitatem for vnitate which is also the word in the text is to the same purpose that Leos was There are saith Ierome many winds of doctrine and by their blast when the waues are raised men are caried hither and thither in an vncertaine course and with diuers errors then follow the words you alledge Therefore we must labour with all diligence first to meete in the vnitie of faith then in the same vnitie to haue the knowledge of the sonne of God Which last point is added because of Sabellius who denied the distinction of the persons and against whom Ierome speaketh professedly in that chapter as also against Arius Macedonius and Eunomius about the holy Ghost and our Sauiour Christ A. D. §. 4. Hanc fidem saith Irenaeus ecclesia in vniuersum mundum disseminata diligenter custodit quasi vnam domum inhabitans similiter credit ijs quasi vnam animam habens vnum cor consonanter haec praedicat docet cradit quasi vnum possidens os Nam quamuis in mundo dissimiles sint loquelae tamen virtus traditionis vna eadem est This faith the Church spread ouer the whole world doth diligently keepe as dwelling in one house and doth belieue in one like manner those things to wit which are proposed for points of faith as hauing one soule and one heart and doth preach and teach and deliuer by tradition those things after one vniforme manner as possessing one mouth For although there be diuers and different languages in the world yet the vertue of tradition is One and the same Thus saith this Father By whose words we may vnderstand not onely that there is but one faith but also how it is said to be one which might seeme not to be one considering there are so many points or articles which we beleeue by our faith and so many seuerall men who haue in them this faith yet One saith this Father it is because the whole Church doth beleeue those points in one like manner That is to say because the beliefe of one man is in all points like and nothing different from the beliefe of another or because euery faithfull man beleeueth euery point or article for one and the like cause or for mall reason to wit because God hath reuealed it and deliuered it to vs by his Catholicke Church to be beleeued For which reason euery one should beleeue whatsoeuer he beleeueth as a point of Christian faith A. W. Irenaeus as the two former speaketh of the articles of religion many wherof he had recited in the next chapter before whereupon he infers the words you set downe The Church saith he hauing receiued this doctrine or preaching of this faith though it be spread ouer the whole world keepes it diligently c. And this your selfe acknowledge in these words To wit which are proposed for points of faith whereby you expound that which Irenaeus said The Church beleeues those things which is all one with his former words in sense This faith the Church holds So doth Feuardentius one of your learnedst Fryers vnderstand Irenaeus telling vs that he sets the consent of all Churches as a brasen wall that cannot be ouerthrowne against hereticks Of the same things saith Feuardentius they thinke beleeue write and teach the same By this place it is manifest that you take faith as it is a qualitie because you distinguish the points we beleeue from our faith by which we beleeue and so speaking of faith in that sense neuer a one of your proofes is either plaine or certaine But let vs see how you interprete Irenaeus He saith The whole Church doth beleeue alike meaning that all beleeue the same things not that the habit by which they beleeue is of like force like strength in euery particular Church or man which neither belongs to his purpose nor is true The intention or inward strength euen of the Catholick faith may be greater in one mā saith Domingo à Soto then in another and according to that increase our faith Therefore your former reason which you giue why faith is said to be one namely because the beleefe of one man is in all points like the beleefe of another must be vnderstood of likenesse in regard of the articles they beleeue not of any equalitie in the habit or qualitie it selfe and in that sense onely doth Irenaeus say that faith is one Which saith he no man by his eloquence maketh greater no man by his weaknes in speaking of it lesse We see saith Feuardentius that Irenaeus vehemently vrgeth the vnitie of doctrine and consent of faith which we affirmed to be one of the notes of the true Church Therefore whereas you said of Irenaeus that he affirmes faith to be one because the whole Church doth beleeue those things points of faith in one like manner you mistake his meaning and auow that which is vntrue It is great pitie but that such as you are coming in the name and by the authority of the Church should haue absolute credit giuen to that you teach without doubting or examining it at all Your second reason why faith is said to be one neither agrees with Irenaeus meaning as appeares by that which hath bene alreadie said and in the latter part is false too for both it is a fansie of yours that God hath deliuered it to vs by the Catholicke Church since the Prophets Apostles and Ministers are not the Catholicke Church but members of it the last all of them seuerally and ioyntly subiect to many errors though not fundamentall And the reason of beleeuing is simply and onely the authoritie and will of God made knowne to vs by the ministerie of men the holy Ghost enlightening our vnderstanding and enclining our hearts to beleeue But
the points that are deliuered by our teachers and receiue those that are agreeable to the Scriptures and reiect those that are diuers from them Other things that men inuent of their owne head saith Ierome as it were by Apostolicall tradition without the authoritie and witnesse of the Scriptures the word of God smiteth A. D. §. 4. Secondly that man which beleeuing some points should denie others cannot while he doth thus haue one and the same faith which other Christians haue Sith he doth not as Irenaeus requireth to the vnitie of faith beleeeue the points of faith in a like but in a different manner from other Christians That is to say Neither doth he beleeue all the points which they doe neither doth he beleeue those points wherein he doth agree with them for the same reason that they doe that is to say He doth not beleeue those points which he seemeth to beleeue precisely for that God hath reuealed them and by his Church propounded them for if he did sith this reason is common to all points of faith he should assoone beleeue all as any one He hath not therefore I say one and the same faith which other Christians haue who notwithstanding haue the true faith And sith as S. Leo said Nisi vna est fides non est If it be not one faith it is no faith at all It followeth that he that beleeueth not entirely all points of faith hath no faith at all and consequently sith one that hath no faith can no way be saued it is euident that he that beleeuing some articles doth obstinately denie others cannot be saued A. W. Your second reason to prooue that faith must be entire is thus to be framed If faith cannot be one vnlesse it be entire then it must be entire But faith cannot be one vnlesse it be entire Therefore faith must be entire I denie the consequence of your proposition For it is not absolutely necessarie to saluation that faith should be one in such sort as you imagine There is indeed an absolute necessitie that all men should agree in the beleefe of certaine points without the beleefe whereof there can possibly be no saluation But that there should be such an agreement in all points though it be necessarie positiuely to speake as you doe because Gods truth is in euery particular to be beleeued yet it is not required as a meanes without which a man cannot be saued as I haue already shewed I grant the assumption in that sense you vnderstand being one otherwise I denie it Faith may be one in all points necessary to saluation and yet not entire in beleeuing all things that God hath reuealed To your allegation out of Irenaeus I answered before the exposition you make of it as I then signified in regard of the latter part thereof cannot be drawne out of Irenaeus who speakes not a word of the reason whereupon men beleeue but onely of the principall articles of faith euery where beleeued in regard whereof there was as he saith an vnitie of beleefe Neither is your proofe sufficient if we grant your exposition For a man may beleeue that which he doth beleeue because God hath reuealed it and in that respect haue one faith with other Christians and yet doubt of or denie some other points which are commonly held because he cannot perswade himselfe that they are reuealed by God though it be generally so beleeued I may say the like of matters propounded also by the Church because the decrees thereof are not so plaine but that they may admit diuers senses But I respect not that clause as being a point foisted in by you without any warrant of Scripture or reason Though it be no great matter what you build vpon so slipperie a foundation because it cannot long stand yet perhaps it is not amisse to push it downe presently that it may not continue to make a shew Thus you build He that hath no faith at all cannot be saued But he that beleeues not entirely all points of faith hath no faith at all Therefore he that beleeuing some articles doth obstinately denie any others cannot be saued I denie your assumption A man may doubt of and denie many points as I haue shewed and yet both haue faith and be saued Your proofe to the contrarie out of Leo was answered before Your conclusion is not so large as it should be For you restraine it to obstinately not beleeuing which cannot barre a man from saluation but in those points alone which are necessarie as meanes to bring him to euerlasting life A. D. §. 5. Thirdly to beleeue some points of faith and to denie others or any one is heresie as to denie all is absolute Infidelitie But it is sure euen out of Scripture that Heretickes shall not be saued no more then Infidels For as it is said Qâ—i non credit iam indicatus est he that beleeueth not is alreadie iudged so the Aposile Saint Paule reckoneth heresies among the works of the flesh of all which he doth pronounce Qui talia agunt regnum Dei non consequentur Those which doe such like things shall not attaine the kingdome of God A. W. Hereticall faith is liable to damnation That faith which is not entire is hereticall Therefore that faith which is not entire is liable to damnation I must intreate the Reader to call to minde what I answered before in generall concerning this point about liablenesse to damnation There is no heresie nor error in matter of Religion but it is a sinne and being so makes the partie that doth erre liable to damnation But yet many errors and heresies are of so small moment in comparison of other that hee which holdeth them may notwithstanding such his error or heresie be saued I gaue examples before and will not stand to repeate them So then the proposition is thus farre true and no farther Hereticall faith in matters necessarie to saluation is simply damnable so that he which continueth in such an estate cannot possibly be saued Againe Hereticall faith in any point of Gods truth whatsoeuer of it selfe deserueth damnation yet he that doth erre in some points may be saued else I thinke there are fewe men liuing or euer haue bene that could haue come or shall come to heauen As for the authoritie of the Church it is not of force to make that simply damnable which in it selfe is not so though it much increase the sinne whensoeuer it determineth truly of any point in question You will say Saint Paule reckoneth heresie amongst the works of the flesh So doth he contentions c. yet may a man in ignorance be contentious thinking he doth well and contends for the true faith as he ought to do and for all this contention not depriue himselfe of the interest he hath to the kingdome of heauen in Iesus Christ I deny your assumption A man may be
of saluation and giuen commandements which if all men should obserue they should be saued But what need I be long in this matter when as your selfe as it should seeme so vnderstood it In the title you say All sorts of men in the Chapter you repeate those same words and adde two sorts learned and vnlearned which also you do afterward It may therefore seeme strange perhaps to some man that I trouble my self and the reader with this exception against your proposition But I do it not without iust cause For although both title and chapter make profession as it were of that meaning yet within halfe a dozē lines after you giue me occasiō to suspect the other sense where you say God hath prouided meanes whereby euery man learned and vnlearned may sufficiently be instructed And indeed whereto else tendeth that discourse of the visibilitie of the Church so much magnified and vrged by you In that sense then I denie the consequence of the proposition But if you vnderstand it according to the plaine words not of euery man but of all sorts of men I still denie the consequence For though it be out of doubt that God hath appointed as wel vnlearned as learned to euerlasting life yet it is false that there needeth any such rule or meanes as of necessitie to saluation I denie your assumption For God hath prouided a rule whereby a man may be instructed in all points and questions of faith Let them that would attaine to saluation saith Chrysostom bestow their time in the Scriptures And againe If we search the Scriptures diligently we shall attaine to saluation We are not commaunded saith Iustin the martyr by Christ to giue credit to the doctrines of men but to those which the holy Prophets haue published and Christ hath taught Therefore doth Tertullian call Hermogenes to the Scripture and adore the sufficiency thereof By which onely as one saith after heresie once hath possest the Churches the true Church of Christ is to be found A little after He that would know which is the true Church of Christ how shall he know it but only by the Scriptures From and in which only assurance of faith is to be had as he saith presently after God hath a true will which also certainly taketh effect that some mē of al sorts shold be saued but not that euery particular man should as I proued before by your reason because he hath not vouchsafed euery one the means Cōcerning the first place alledged by you the Apostles owne interpretation seemeth to allow that which I brought before out of Austin of the diuers conditions and sorts of men For so himselfe speaketh I will that prayers supplications and intercessions be made for all men for Kings and for all that are in authoritie He sheweth in these last words what he meaneth by all men All sorts of men The reason why he nameth Kings and magistrates is because they were at that time not onely heathen but also enemies and persecutors so that no such doctrine can be certainly and necessarily concluded out of this text that God would haue euery particular man to be saued For the auowing of the former exposition we must vnderstand that the word all is often vsed in Scripture for euery kind Iesus healed euery sicknesse and euery disease not euery particular but all kind of diseases Euery sinne and blasphemy shal be forgiuen not euery particular sinne but euery kind of sin saue onely that against the holy Ghost We heard before that of Iohn I wil draw all to me and Saint Austins iudgement thereupon And if it were true that God had as you speak a true wil that all men should be saued how can that be true which not we onely but the learnedst of your Papists hold according to the Scriptures that he appointed some to damnation as wel as other some to saluation and that there can be no reason giuē why this man in particular is vouchsafed faith and saluation that man is not but onely the wil of God As it is euidently proued by Thomas of Aquin Rom. 9. and long before him by S. Austin in many places Ad Simplician lib. 1. q. 2. de praedest grat cap. 46. Enchir. ad Laurent cap. 32. 99. Epist 105 ad Sixtū you therfore do Austin wrong who alledge him in your margin as if he thought that God wold haue euery particular mā to be saued against which his doctrine in so many places is direct and which as I shewed before he purposely refuteth Prosper also is of the same opinion as hauing defended that doctrine of Austin against his aduersaries which also is the title matter of a whole chapter in one of his bookes That the saying of the Apostle God wil haue all men to be saued is meant of all kind of men Therfore the place you bring must be vnderstood according to the course of Prospers writings in the same treatise that God hath not barred any nation nor kept back any man from hearing beleeuing the Gospel And farther hath by his general prouidence and benesiles affoorded meanes to stir vp all to seeke God as himself speakes in two of the places you bring and in some other In one place when he had said that many infants are dead who certainly haue no part in the citie of God he addeth And where is that which by some that vnderstand it not is obiected to vs as contrary hereunto that God wil haue all men to be saued and come to the knowledge of his truth Are not they to be reckoned among those All men who heretofore from time to time haue perished without the knowledge of God This might serue for answer to you in this point concerning Gods will to haue all men saued But for your better satisfactiō or if that will not be for the closer stopping of your mouth I will adde that solution which your great Cardinall Bellarmine giues to these three places of Scripture that you alledge though in another question These places saith Bellarmine only signifie that God hindereth no man from saluation yea that he hath appointed remedies and helps in common and that he would haue the preaching of the word and the sacraments to be common to all In the same sense is God said to be the Sauiour of all because by his generall prouidence he hath care of all and hath left no man vntoucht but either by the Gospell or by the law or by nature it selfe hath moued him to seeke after God as Prosper saith yea hath affoorded meanes whereby euery man may be saued This place as Bellarmine saith can hardly haue any other exposition then that latter Your Glosse expoundeth it of Gods goodnes to all men in respect of outward blessings who makes his Sun to shine saith it vpon good and bad The other place of
of Nice to follow and which they accordingly followed The bookes of the Euangelists and Apostles and the Oracles of the old prophets plainly instruct vs quoth that worthie Emperour what we are to iudge of matters concerning God Therefore laying aside all enemie-like discord let vs debate ad determine the points in question by the testimonies of the Scriptures inspired by God These as we heard before Ierome makes the bounds of the Church within which she must keepe her selfe and Proclus Archbishop of Constantinople confineth faith to the same place Faith saith he must abide within the Euangelicall and Apostolicall bounds Paschasius a Cardinall of your Church as you say many yeares since tied Macedonius the hereticke to the Scriptures equiring him either to shew by euident testimonies of the word of God that we must beleeue in the Church or else to vrge the point no further For as Chrysostome truly affirmeth If there be any thing needfull to be knowen we shall learne it in the Scriptures I mightfil whole sides with testimonies out of the Fathers to this purpose but I let them passe as needlesse especially since your selfe before confessed that the word of God is infallible and therefore in that respect sufficient to be the rule of faith Now to your conclusion The first part of this first conclusion is false in regard of the infallibilitie of Scripture which it should seeme you saw well enough and therefore balkt that matter and deuised an other point concerning our translation to play withall For what is it but trifling when a man leaues the thing in question and busies him selfe about the refuting of that which besides himselfe no man euer dreamed of What English protestant euer affirmed that our translation was infallible that is such as had no error in it or might not be doubted of Or who euer tooke it for the rule of faith You make babies which you beate as you list Against the Scriptures being the rule of faith which we affirme you say nothing Against the infallibilitie of our translation which we grant not to be the rule of faith you discourse at large wherein I intreate the Reader to consider these few things with me That which he speakes in disgrace of our translation makes no more against it then against all other whatsoeuer For neither is any translation the language in which the Scripture was written and no translators euer had any such infallible assistance by the holy Ghost Sure the author of the vulgar Latin translation had not such help as the Hebrew and Greek originals which the translations of all the learned Papists themselues declare Pagnin Vatablus Isidorus Clarius c. As for Gregory Martins cauils they were answered long since by D. Fulke and I maruell that you can name them without blushing seeing neuer a one of you durst vndertake the defence of them for the space of these 23. yeares Nay which is worse you were not ashamed in the second edition of your Rhemish Testament to bleare your blind followers eyes with a table of hereticall corruptions in translating the Scriptures as if you had propounded some new matter whereas they were all taken out of that booke of Martins and had long before bene iustified by D. Fulke without any reply on your parts You demaund how any vnlearned man can be infallibly sure that in those places which do seeme to fauour our sect our translation doth not erre I answer that there are better meanes of assurance for vnlearned Protestants concerning the truth of our translation then any Papist can haue by your imagined authoritie for your vulgar Latin First it is no slender perswasion to any reasonable man that those places you speake of if not wholy yet for the most part are translated with the same sense in other toungs which they haue in ours as in Spanish French Italian Flemish Dutch Secondly it is a great confirmation of the truth that many of those texts which seeme most to fauor vs are the same in your vulgar and Rhemish editions that they are in ours Thirdly the truth of ours is yet more cleare because euery man may see that in bookes of controuersie betwixt vs our translations are seldome denied by the learned of your side though you condemne our expositions Fourthly who may not easily discerne how much more faithfull our translation of those places all others is then yours seeing we are readie to make triall of it by the originals the learned on your sides being iudges you are afraid of nothing more then to haue yours examined by the Hebrew and Greeke Fiftly in the places you speake of our translations deserue the more credit because we labour to make them plaine for euery mans vnderstanding and shew how they agree with the rest of the booke and chapter wheras your Rhemish Testament is so handled that an English man of good vnderstanding can hardly tell what to make of it for the very words themselues in many places as if you auoided nothing more then plainnesse Sixtly we perswade all men as much as we can to labour for the knowledge of the originall tongues that so they may be able to iudge of our translation you do all you can to keepe men in the mist of ignorance because you are afraid to haue your corruptions discouered Seuenthly though we allow not our ministers such an infinite authoritie as you giue your Cleargie yet we teach that it becoms Christian charitie and modestie neither to suspect a translation where the analogie of faith is kept and the plaine meaning of the holy Ghost not manifestly altered nor to rest vpon priuate conceit against the generall iudgement of the learned without very euident proofe of error These amongst other are reasonable grounds for a Christian to build vpon that he may haue some good assurance of the truth of our translation Now let vs examine yours We must say you admit an infallible authoritie in the Church to assure vs that such or such a translation doth not erre in any point First this is more then neeeds For if that authoritie can assure vs that the translation erreth not in any point needfull to saluation in regard of the sense it may be a sufficient ground for vs to build our faith vpon though it should mistake some words in many points and the sense too in matters of lesse importance Secondly though we do admit such an authoritie in the Church yet may we be farre enough from any such assurance For how shall I be sure that the Church hath so affirmed of this or that translation How shal I know what the Church is A company you say of men vpon earth infallibly taught by the holy Ghost what is the true faith in al points Is this teaching cōmon to euery one of this company seuerally or only annexed to them all ioyntly when they are together What if all what if the greater part assemble
beleeue a simple husbandman a child or an old woman rather then the Pope and a thousand Bb. if these speake against the Gospell and the other with it Then belike a priuate man may see some truth which is not generally discerned The place of Austin you bring doth not condemne all interpretations or opinions which some one man findeth out and holdeth but onely reproueth them who in expounding the places of Scripture which wil beare a diuers sense vrge one onely not because it is truth but because they like it best His example is out of Genesis concerning the sense of those words In the beginning God created heauen and earth They know not which of those diuers senses that may be Moses did intend saith Austin but they loue their owne opinion not because it is true but because it is their owne What doth this concerne vs who as we giue euery man of iudgement leaue to propound his interpretation to be examined so permit no man to thrust any exposition vpon the Church which he cannot make euident proofe of by sound reason Neither is it then taken as his priuate conceit but acknowledged as the truth of God manifested by his industrie In doubtfull places we follow the likeliest sense without any resolute determining what is true what false therefore cannot with any shew of reason be charged to appropriate the knowledge of Gods truth to our selues where it hath pleased his Maiestie so to propound it that of diuers senses a man cannot certainly affirme that this or that is true A. D. CHAP. X. That the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule of faith A. W. If you had mentioned nothing but the doctrine of the true Church we might haue vnderstood you without any cause of doubting but now you ad teaching to doctrine we are enforced to enquire farther into your meaning For we are vncertaine whether by those words you meane one and the same thing or no. The doctrine of the Church is that which the Church propoundeth to be beleeued whether by word of mouth or in writing Teaching if we make it differ from doctrine is that onely which is deliuered by voice to the eare If we vnderstand you in the former sense for teaching by writing as well as by word of mouth the latter word was needlesse if in the latter of writing onely then the same doctrine written is not the rule of faith which vttered by a teacher will become such a rule not because it is true but because it is taught by authoritie A. D. §. 1. The fourth conclusion is that this infallible rule which euery one ought to follow in all points of faith is the doctrine and teaching of the true Church or companie of the true faithfull of Christ A. W. That we may the better vnderstand what you say and how you proue your saying there are a few things to be considered in this fourth condition First by the faithfull of Christ you must meane those that professe Christian Religion whether they beleeue as they professe or no as I haue shewed out of Bellarmine who doubtlesse knoweth what the Church is as well as you If you be of any other opinion by your owne rule we may reiect it for the priuatnesse thereof Secondly where you say the true faithfull it is not your purpose to speake as we for whom you writ this commonly doe of them that haue a true iustifying faith but of them that professe the doctrine of the Gospell according to the true sense and meaning of it whether they haue any iustifying faith or no. Thirdly by this companie or Church whom vnderstand you If the whole number of the beleeuers as well Laitie as Cleargie I oppose the iudgement of your owne Doctours against you who speaking of the Churches doctrine and teaching restraine the word onely to the Pope and Bishops The spirit saith Bellarmine is certainly found in the Church that is in a Councell of Bishops confirmed by the chiefe Pastor of the whole Church or in the chiefe Pastor with a Councell of the other Pastors If you follow Bellarmine I demaund whether your Laity be none of the true faithfull of Christ nor parts of the Church But to leaue this doubt wee are thus to conceiue your meaning that the doctrine which the Pope and other Pastors of the Church namely Bb. deliuer in a Councell is the rule of faith Now let vs propound your reason and examine it but first I confesse that I dare not resolutely determine whether it be brought in by you for a proofe of any thing that hitherto hath bene spoken or intended onely as a discourse concerning the authoritie of the Church If we apply it to any matter alreadie past as farre as I am able to conceiue it must be a second proofe of the proposition or maior of your maine Syllogisme in this manner If the doctrine and teaching of the true Church be the infallible rule which all men ought to follow then the faith which the authority of the true Church commends to vs is to be holden for the true faith But the doctrine and teaching of the true church is the infallible rule that all men ought to follow Therfore the faith which the authoritie of the true Church commendeth to vs is to be holden for the true faith This reasonable coherence we may make betwixt this Chapter and your former course without changing or weakning any part or point of your proofe which is applied to the confirming of this last minor the argument of this Chapter A. D. §. 2. This I proue by this reason If our Sauiour Christ hath promised to any company of men the presence of himselfe and the assistance of his holy spirit of purpose to instruct and teach them all truth giuing withall peculiar charge and commission to them to teach all nations and to preach to euery creature giuing also warrant to all that they may safely heare them giuing also commandement whereby he bindeth all to do in all things according to their saying and threatning greatly those who will not heare and beleeue them then certainly the doctrine and teaching of these men is in all points most true and infallible and such as if the other conditions required in the rule of faith be not as they are not wanting may well be proposed to all sorts as an assured ground whereupon they may safely build an infallible Christian faith For looke what our Sauiour Christ hath promised must needs be performed and whatsoeuer he warranteth or commandeth may safely and without danger of error be done nay must of necessitie be done especially when he threatneth those that will not do it and consequently if he haue promised to send his holy Spirit to teach any companie of men all truth it is not to be doubted but that he sendeth this his holy Spirit and by it teacheth them all truth and fith the teaching of his
Spirit is vnfallible we are not to doubt but that this companie is in all points infallibly taught the truth If also the same our Sauiour gaue warrant and commandement that they should teach vs and that we should heare them and do in all things according to their saying we may not likewise doubt but that they shall be able to teach all sorts of men in all points the infallible truth and that all sorts of men may if they will learne of that companie what in all points is the infallible truth For otherwise by this generall commaundement of hearing them and doing according to their saying we should be bound somtime to heare and beleeue an vntruth and to doe that which were not vpright and good which without blasphemie to Christ his veritie and goodnesse can no way be thought A. W. 1 If our Sauiour Christ say you hath promised to any companie his presence and assistance of his spirit of purpose to instruct and teach them all truth 2 If he haue giuen them charge and commission to preach to euerie creature 3 If he haue giuen warrant to all that they may safely heare them 4 If he haue giuen commaundement to all to doe in all things according to their saying 5 If he haue threatned them who will not heare and beleeue them 6 If the other conditions required in the rule of faith be not wanting then the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule that all men ought to follow But our Sauiour Christ hath so 1. promised 2. charged 3. warranted 4. commaunded 5. threatned and 6. the other conditions required are not wanting Therefore the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule that all men ought to follow I haue propounded this Syllogisme as your selfe haue set it downe saue onely that I haue endeuored to make it somewhat shorter keeping your sense whole and full Now for the proposition I grant the consequence vpon all those conditions ioyntly considered to be sound and good Howsoeuer some of them might well haue bene omitted for example 1 If our Sauiour haue promised his presence and assistance of his spirit of purpose to teach a certaine companie of men all truth then the doctrine of the Church is the rule of faith This consequence is but weake for Christ may affoord such presence and assistance to such a purpose and yet the effect not ensue by reason that those men faile in some duties required on their part Do not you affirme in this Treatise that God hath appointed meanes of saluation for all men with a true will to haue them saued and yet verie many yea the greatest part are not saued 2 If he haue giuen them charge and commission to preach to euerie creature then their preaching is the rule of faith Their commission is not simply to teach but to teach those things that our Sauiour himselfe commaunded and therefore their doctrine can be no farther the rule of faith then they preach according to their commission If I or an Angell from heauen saith the Apostle preach vnto you otherwise then that you haue receiued let him be accursed The same may be obiected against the third and the fifth points It doth not follow that their doctrine is the rule of faith because all men haue warrant to heare them safely or because they are threatned who will not heare and beleeue them For first they may be free from danger of erring and yet not know all points of faith which is made by you one condition of the rule Secondly vnlesse you enlarge the warrant as farre as the commaundement in the fourth point which is in a manner to confound them so that they may safely heare them in all things your consequence will still be naught Thirdly they may heare them safely though the other may erre if they haue means affoorded to examine that they deliuer skill and care to vse those meanes Fourthly the threatning for not beleeuing is to be restrained to their teaching as they ought Are not they threatned by our Sauiour who beleeue not any Minister lawfully authorised and preaching the truth Yet doth it not follow hereupon that they cannot erre or that their preaching is simply the rule of faith But these feeble consequences might all haue bene omitted by you and your matter as fully prooued if you had set downe none but the fourth and sixth points thus If God haue commaunded all men to doe in all things as the Church teacheth and the other conditions required in the rule be not wanting then their preaching is the rule that all men ought to follow This consequence is true and sufficient for your purpose the other serue for number to make a shew rather then for substance of weight But of your Maior this may be sufficient especially since I acknowledge the truth thereof A. D. §. 3. But so it is that Christ our Sauiour hath in holy Scripture promised giuen commission warranted commaunded and threatned in manner aforesaid Therefore we cannot doubt but that there is a certaine company the which is called the true Church of Christ which both is in all points of faith infallibly taught by the holy Spirit and is likewise to teach all sorts of men in all points of faith what is the infallible truth and therefore the teaching of this companie may well be assigned and proposed to all men as an vndoubted sufficient rule of faith A. W. I denie your Minor first in generall because our Sauiour did not so promise charge warrant commaund threaten in regard of any companie of men as if there had bene some ioynt teaching appointed by him but in respect of his Apostles and Ministers seuerally who in their proportion haue as much authoritie for necessitie of being beleeued seuerally one by one as iointly all together though such a ioynt consent is the more to be reuerenced and respected Secondly I denie it also in the fourth point which is the strength of it There neuer was since the Apostles any man or any companie of men according to whose saying we were commaunded to doe in all things Lastly I say the conditions required in the rule of faith are wanting in the teaching you vnderstand This conclusion of yours giueth me occasion to speake somewhat at large of the Church with the name whereof applied to your Pope alone or Pope and Cleargie you daily seduce many vnsetled and ignorant people The word Church in our English tongue seemeth first of all to haue bene applied to the Temple or place of Gods seruice as if it were called Kyrke of the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as you would say the Lords house But the Hebrew Greek words which must be the Iudges in this matter signifie a Companie Congregation or Assemblie The Hebrew words are two the Greeke as many the Latin besides the two Greeke made Latin are diuers Populi people Coetus
contempt Secondly in Saint Mathew the same our Sauiour expresly saith Si Ecclesiam non audierit sit tibi sicut Ethnicus publicanus If he will not heare the Church let him be to thee like an Ethnicke and a Publican Finally in Saint Marke after he had giuen charge and commission to preach the Gospell to euerie creature he pronounceth this threat to those that will not beleeue saying Qui non crediderit condemnabitur He that will not beleeue shall be condemned A. W. This is the last point in your Assumption and thus it is to be concluded He that despiseth our Sauiour that is to be accounted as an heathen or Publican that shall be condemned is greatly threatned in Scripture But he that will not heare the Church and doe in all things according to the saying thereof despiseth our Sauiour c. Therefore he that will not heare the Church and doe in all things according to the saying thereof is greatly threatned in Scripture I denie your Minor and will answer to the seuerall proofes of it To the first whereof I shall need to say little because I spake sufficiently of the former part of that text at the third point The summe is that this threatning as the warrant is not vttered in respect of any Church or companie but of seuerall teachers and preachers and therefore if we may not conclude from hence that he which heareth not euery minister and doth in all things according to his saying is guiltie of these crimes no more is he that performeth not the like dutie to a cōpany of Pastors or bishops assembled together Secondly if it were spokē of the Church yet were not any man to be held faulty in such a measure but he onely that refuseth the ministerie of the Gospell and embraceth not the doctrine thereof as the onely way of saluation Therefore said our Sauiour in the same chapter and matter Into whatsoeuer Citie ye shall enter if they will not receiue you go your waies out into the streets of the same and say euen the verie dust which cleaueth on vs of your Citie we wipe off against you So did the Apostles against the Iewes of Antioch in Pisidia for their contempt of the Gospell They shooke off the dust of their feet against them Thus as I signified before your glosse vnderstandeth it He that despiseth you so that he will not beleeue in Christ Is it all one to despise a man and not to assent to the truth of whatsoeuer he speaketh This may proceed and doth ordinarily from an error of iudgement that commeth alwaies from a resolute determination of the will Thirdly as hearing so despising must be vnderstood not simply but when the parties to be heard or despised preach the truth of Iesus Christ according to his word For there is no commaundement as I shewed in handling of the last point that bindeth vs any farther to obedience or makes vs liable to punishment then the things deliuered are agreeable to the word of God vnlesse we do against our conscience Therefore your speech of your Catholicke Church is but idle there being no speech nor thought of it in this place but onely a charge to heare the Apostles simply because they could not erre other teachers iointly or seuerally though the latter be properly intended so farre forth as they speake agreeably to the Scriptures and so do not erre First I say this place is not to purpose because it speaketh of a man alreadie in the Church a beleeuer by profession whereas your question is of him that is no Christian but to be made a beleeuer by giuing credit to that which shall be preached to him That it is to be vnderstood of beleeuers onely the text it selfe speaketh If thy brother If anie man that is called a brother Thy brother that is a Christian saith Theophylact For our Lord hath appointed no such course to be taken saith Chrysostome with them that are out of the Church But this is meant of him that vnder the name of a beleeuer saith Ierome plaieth the Infidell A brother saith Iansenius is here vnderstood not to be euerie neighbour or euerie man but he that is a Christian of the same religion with vs. His reasons are first because our Sauiour saith Tell the Church but the Church hath nothing to doe in such cases with those that are not members of it What haue I to do saith Paul to iudge them that are without Secondly because an Heathen and Publican are alreadie out of the Church and so the censure here appointed cannot concerne them Secondly by not hearing the Church our Sauiour doth not meane not beleeuing all points of doctrine the Church deliuereth of which there was no occasion for him to speake at that time but refusing to be ordered by the Church and despising the admonition thereof So is hearing and not hearing there to be vnderstood If he heare thee what is that If he beleeue the doctrine thou teachest No such matter But if he take thy admonition in good part and accordingly reforme himselfe So afterwards If he refuse to heare the witnesses This refusall hath a kinde of contempt ioyned with it If he contemne the Church saith Cyprian Despising the commaundement of his prelate saith Lyra. Thirdly by Church no man in this place can reasonably vnderstand a generall Councell either without or with the Pope For questionlesse our Sauiour would neuer speak so obscurely to the Iewes for whom it was impossible to vnderstand his meaning and whom that matter did not concerne But he speaketh either of the gouernours of seuerall Churches or of the congregatiōs gouernors which are properly the Church in those places where they liue In the former sense do Chrysostome and Theophylact take it and your Rhemists by Chrysostomes authority Tell the Prelates and gouernours Tell them saith Bellarmine that are publicke persons in the Church And in an other place Euerie mans Prelate or a companie of Prelates is meant The latter opinion your Bishop Iansenius maintaines He saith tell the Church not tell the Bishops and gouernours of the Church though they especially are to be told the Church is not to be told but in their presence as a company of beleeuers is not to be called a Church if the gouernours thereof be not present He saith tell the Church that he may reuerence the agreement of the multitude That the reproofe by many may correct him To this purpose Ierome saith It must be told to many And therefore if any man thinke that by telling the Church it is meant we should tell the Pope besides the absurdity of the interpretation the Pope being but one and the Church by your owne definition a Company both our Sauiour Christs course is peruerted Tell him alone thē with one or two witnesses lastly tel one againe Iansenins Ierom
the Church is of infallible and vndoubted truth and that the way not to be deceiued in an obscure question is to aske and follow the iudgement of the Church Wherefore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam I beleeue the Catholicke Church and worthily also may I conclude that neither Scripture alone nor naturall wit and learning nor priuate spirit nor any other thing but onely the teaching of the true Church of Christ is that ordinarie meanes which Almightie God hath prouided whereby all men may learne that one infallible entire faith which I proued to be necessarie to saluation A. W. Saint Paul doth worthily call the Church the pillar and ground of truth but not as you would haue vs beleeue because it is the rule of faith The Greeke Scholiast taketh that speech of the Apostle to be vttered by way of comparison betwixt the Church of Christ and the Iewish Temple Not as the Iewish Temple saith Oecumenius but the pillar and ground of truth for the Temple was the ground of the shadowes of the truth Out of which we may gather that as the Iewish synagogue was the pillar and ground of those shadowes of the truth so is the Church of Christ the pillar and ground of the truth it selfe But that synagogue was not the rule of faith in that point because whatsoeuer it taught was to be held for infallible truth but for that to it were committed the oracles of God and the knowledge and vse of those ceremonies so hath the Church of Christ the truth of doctrine in the scripture and the exercises of Gods worship and religion Therfore is it called the pillar and ground of it because it constantly maintaineth that truth preaching and professing it in despight of all the practises and power of Satan and tyrants of the world As the thighs saith an ancient writer sustaine and beare vp the weight of the whole bodie so also the Apostles like pilars valiantly carry the vniuersall Church of Christians ouer the whole world being for the value of their inuincible courage and stedfastnesse of their holy purpose called marble pillars And a litle after They preached the Gospell with such wisedome and constancie that as if they had bene of marble or adamant they were afraid of no violence nor aduersitie but always continuing firme and inuincible against all the forces of men and diuels shining as it were in the darke by that light of their wisedome by preaching admonishing teaching and glistering with miracles at the last they most happily became conquerors To this effect speake your Glosses The ground of the truth of the Gospell which the Church constantly maintained euen in the greatest persecutions Well vpholding the truth in it self saith another Glosse That it may not fall to the ground though it be afflicted saith Lombard But let vs bring your reason into due frame The pillar and ground of truth is the rule of faith The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church is the rule of faith Your proposition or maior is false vnlesse you restraine it as I haue often said to the truth and then it is so far the rule of faith as it is the pillar and ground of truth Whatsoeuer it holdeth truly according to the scripture is the rule of faith for those points not because of the Churches authoritie but for the truth of the doctrine Yet may it easily come to passe that a Church maintaining the generall truth of the Gospell and all particulars necessary to soluation may faile in many other points of great importance and for all that continue both a true Church and the pillar and ground of truth though not the rule of faith Your minor also as you vnderstand it is vntrue First because the Apostle speaketh not of any such companie as you imagine Pope Bishop Councell but either of the Church of Ephesus in which Timothie to whom he writeth then abode or indefinitely of any and euery Church whatsoeuer where the true Religion of our Sauiour is or shall be professed according to the Gospell If Timothie were as you will not denie Bishop of Ephesus then it is apparent that the Apostle calleth the Church of Ephesus wherein Timothy liued taught and gouerned the pillar and ground of truth yet was it not the rule of faith for then had the rule of faith perished long since with that Church of Ephesus If he speake to him as to an Euangelist who was to follow him from place to place and to establish the Churches which the Apostle had planted then must euery one of those Churches wherein Timothy was to behaue himselfe as he had done in Ephesus be vnderstood to be the pillar and ground of truth and yet neither any nor all of them were the rule of faith which else must haue bene lost with them What remaines then Shall we expound it of all beleeuers in generall I grant it reacheth to all the faithfull but as to them considered in their seuerall Churches because among them so disposed of was Timothy to performe that dutie which the Apostle there enioyneth him But let vs so conceiue of the Church What shall it auaile you or endamage vs All beleeuers are not the companie you pleade for but onely the Pope and your Bishops whom you would haue taken for the rule of faith Secondly I denie your minor in respect of the sense you giue of those words the pillar and ground of truth For you so vnderstand them as if the truth of God depended vpon the verdict of the Church so that nothing may be held for truth but what the Church deliuereth for such and whatsoeuer she so propoundeth must so be receiued vpon paine of certaine damnation How contrary are you in this interpretation and doctrine to the auncient fathers The Apostles saith Irenaeus left vs the Scriptures to be the pillar and ground of our faith Nay say you they left vs the Church to be the pillar and ground of the Scriptures The Gospell and spirit of life saith the same father in the same booke is the pillar and ground of the Church Nay by your leaue reply you the Church is the pillar and ground of the Gospell But Chrysostome handling this place of the Apostle is not afraid to affirme that the truth is the pillar and ground of the Church not as if he would denie that which the Apostle saith for the Church indeed is the vpholder of the truth but to shew that although the Church maintaine and auow the truth yet it is built and founded vpon the truth which as Ierome saith vpholds the building Therfore to make short whē the Apostle saith that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth his meaning is that amongst Christians and among no other sort of men the truth is to be found and amongst and by them it is constantly and worthily
maintained The Philosophers indeed as Thomas saith had a kind of notion of some points thereof but they had no certaintie as well because they were corrupted with errors as for that very few of them are found to haue agreed in the same truth But in the Church is certaine knowledge and truth Which as Caietan saith is vpheld aloft in it because it is auowed reuerenced and honored aboue all things and it is so founded in the Church that out of it it is not to be found This is the reason as they truly say why the Church is called a pillar Thomas addeth that it is termed the ground in respect of others because men cannot be confirmed in the truth but by the sacraments of the Church This testimonie of Austine is alledged by you otherwise then it was written by him For whereas he spake of that which had then alreadie bene resolued of by the whole Church you make him speake indefinitely of any thing that pleaseth the Church turning iam placuit into placet But we must vnderstand that he writing in that place concerning the rebaptizing of heretickes which question had bene agreed vpon as he saith in the former chapter before the hatching of Donatus heresie saith that the iudgement of the Church in that case is to be held as agreeable to the Scripture This might the Reader haue seene in his words if you had not changed the tense in placet and left out etiam in hac re in the beginning of the sentence The truth of the Scriptures saith Austin is held by vs euen in this thing If you reply farther that the reason which Austin vseth is generall for all questions whatsoeuer namely the authoritie of the Church commended by the Scriptures which cannot erre I answer you first that we haue seene Austins iudgement directly to the contrary viz. that whatsoeuer is of necessitie to saluation is plainly deliuered in the Scriptures and that the authoritie of men without Scripture is insufficient to propound any doctrine as a matter of faith and therefore if he should write otherwise in this place we might with good reason make question of his authoritie Secondly I answer that Austine speaketh here of those points onely which are not determinable by Scripture such as he taketh the question of rebaptizing heretickes to be as it appeareth in the words immediatly before those you alledge being also a peece of the sentence by you omitted Although saith Austin there be no example to be brought out of the Scriptures concerning this matter yet the truth of the same Scriptures is euen in this matter also held by vs when we do that which hath now alreadie pleased the whole Church c. Now in such cases as cannot by Scripture be decided who would or may be so presumptuous as to withstand or mislike the practise of the church in all places Surely the authoritie of the church is so far commended in the Scriptures that it ought in all things of such nature to ouerweigh our iudgement and incline our affection to the liking of that which is agreed on by so generall a consent of so many churches in all nations Therefore that which you gather out of Austins words of following the iudgement of the church in an obscure question is to be restrained to such questions as cannot be determined by the Scriptures and those are few or none of any importance of necessitie to saluation none at all or else your consequence will be nothing worth Austin saith that in questions not determinable by Scripture we must follow the iudgement of the church Therefore we must follow it in all obscure questions whatsoeuer Austins foundation will not beare your building Is it a good reason to say In cases not prouided for by law custome must beare sway therfore it must be followed in all cases So and so weakly do you dispute It is not enough for you to teach vs new diuinitie but you will driue vs to learne new Latin too Caesar could make men free of Rome but not words Credere Ecclesiam Catholicam to beleeue the Catholicke Church in ordinary Latin is to beleeue that there is a Catholicke Church Credo esse I beleeue there is but you would make the ignorant beleeue that credo Ecclesiam and credo Ecclesiae is all one For how else can this sentence reasonably depend vpon the former We must follow the iudgement of the Church Therfore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam What can you meane by this but I beleeue that is I giue credit to the Catholick Church that is I beleeue that to be true which the Catholicke Church teacheth But the article of the Creed hath no such sense as it may appeare by the other that follow all being alike in respect of our beleefe I beleeue the communion of Saints the forgiuenesse of sinnes the resurrection of the bodie and life euerlasting To which of these foure dowe giue any such credit But we beleeue that there is a Church of Christ to which all these priuiledges belong He that translated Epiphanius into Latin more curiously then truly made a difference betwixt beleeuing the church and the other articles We beleeue saith he one holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church we confesse one baptisme for the forgiuenesse of sinnes and looke for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come But the Greeke which Epiph. reciteth out of the Nicene creed is alike in all the articles in the Church in the baptisme of repentance in the resurrection of the dead And Paschasius doubteth not to say that the ignorance of some drew the preposition in from the former sentence concerning beleefe in the holy Ghost into the article of the church yet as he sheweth credere Deum in Deum greatly differ That there is a God the Apostle saith the diuel beleeueth but no mā is held to beleeue in God but he that religiously puts his trust in him Cyril also reciteth the articles after the same manner without any difference in the particulars yet with In to euerie one of them and in that sense in which we take them Ruffin as Paschasius before denieth that the Creed saith In the holy Church in the forgiuenesse of sinnes in the resurrection of the flesh Because that were to equall our beleefe of these points with our beleeuing in the Father the Son and the holy Ghost But of these articles we are to beleeue that they are true that there is a Church gathered vnto God that there is a remission of sinnes that there is a resurrection of the flesh So doth Austin if those Sermons be his read and vnderstand it I beleeue the Catholicke Church c. We must beleeue that God will vouchsafe the resurrection of bodies and the forgiuenesse of sinnes And whereas in an other Sermon he saith in the Church so doth he
also in the forgiuenesse of sinnes and the meaning is all one And in a third Sermon he giueth vs this caueat we must know saith he that we must beleeue the Church not beleeue in the Church that is must beleeue there is a Church So then To beleeue the Catholicke Church is not to beleeue all that the Church saith which neither the Greeke nor the Latin will beare but to beleeue there is a Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Credo esse Ecclesiam which in the phrase of the new Testament for the Greeke might be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Which is word for word I beleeue that there is a Church Now if any man shall demaūd of me what the meaning of this article is or what we beleeue by beleeuing there is a Church and what that Church is to which so many gracious promises are made and of which so many glorious things are spokē in the scripture I will indeuor to satisfie him as briefly as I can with plainnesse First then leauing the holinesse and catholicknesse of this church to be discussed in due place I say that by beleeuing the Church we beleeue that there is a company of men called to true faith in Iesus Christ and to the participation of those priuiledges which belong to all the true members of his mysticall bodie some of the principall whereof are recited in the articles following But we may not imagine as the Papists doe without any likelihood of true reason that this company is their Pope and Bishops assembled in a generall councel or that they of this companie make one visible congregation but that they are all one Church in regard of the common meanes of saluation which they embrace and their dependance vpon on mysticall head Iesus Christ of whose bodie they are all members So that by Church in the Creed we vnderstand such of the elect as are by faith liuely members of our Sauiours bodie or at the least are by the baptisme of the spirit and water in corporated into that bodie howsoeuer as yet they haue not faith I denie not that all the elect euen those which are yet vnborne belong to the Church of Christ but I thinke the Creed doth not stretch so farre but onely to them that are actually members of Christ not to all that are so in Gods euerlasting predestination In this sense namely for the liuing members of Christs bodie the word Church is often vsed in the Scripture Vpon this rocke will I build my Church The Church which he hath purchased with his blood God hath giuen Christ ouer all things to be the head of the Church which is his bodie the fulnesse of him that filleth all in all things Christ is the head of the Church and the same is the Sauiour of his bodie So is it taken in the same chapter diuers times He is the head of the bodie of the Church Thus doe the ancient writers speake of the Church Austin denieth that he dares take any for the Church of Christ but those that are iust and holy no though they haue bene baptised For as he saith in another place they that are condemned by Christ are not now in his bodie which is the Church because Christ cannot haue members condemned As for the reprobate saith the same Author whether they seeme to be within the Church or be apparantly out of it they are alwaies diuided from the vnitie of the Church which is without spot or wrincle The Church saith Clement of Alexandria is the company of the elect Therefore saith Cyprian that the vnitie of Christ and the Church is coupled together with indiuisible links For as he saith otherwhere the Church that beleeueth in Christ and holds that which once it hath receiued neuer departeth wholy frō him they are the Church that cōtinue in the house of God but they are not a planting planted by God who are not setled with the fastnesse and soundnesse of wheat but are scattered like chaffe by the breath of the enemie Sathan The Church standeth on the right hand saith Ierome and hath nothing in it belonging to them on the left hand And againe He that is a sinner and defiled with any filthinesse cannot be called one of Christs Church nor be said to be subiect to Christ There are many such sayings in the writings of the Fathers grounded vpon the booke of Canticles which all men know intreateth of the true church There is no doubt saith Bernard vpon the Canticles but the elect are the Church of God But the reprobat as one of your Cardinals saith are not truly mēbers of the Church Of many beleeuers purged from their sinnes there is made one Church saith Albertus magnus Thomas his master Thomas himselfe expounding that place of the Reuelation In the Temple of my God saith that by the temple of God the Church of the faithfull is vnderstood which is the speciall temple of God and to that purpose he alledgeth that of the Apostle The temple of God is holy which you are And in an other place he saith that the mysticall bodie of Christ is the Church Now the vnion of this mystical bodie is spiritual by which through faith and charitie they are vnited to God and one to another As the godly or they that are holy are the members of Christ so the wicked saith Ambrose are the members of the Diuell The congregation of them that beleeue aright is the Church saith Altissiodorensis Who can reasonably doubt whether this be the Church spoken of in the Creed or no As for the promises and commendations giuen to the Church in the Scripture to what other Church should they appertaine The Doue and the perfect one praised in the Canticles is as Epiphanius truly saith the holy spouse and Catholicke Church Whereas the Church in the Canticles saith Austin is described to be a garden inclosed a fountain sealed vp a wel of liuing water c. I dare not vnderstand this but of the holy and righteous not of couetous men not of deceiuers extortioners vsurers drunkards enuious persons although they haue receiued the same baptisme but haue not the same charitie or sanctifying grace The promises praises belong either seuerally to euery one of the elect called as that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against the Church that the Church is loued and cherished by Christ her husband head or to the congregations of beleeuers in regard of the elect amongst them Once this I dare boldly affirme let any Papist disproue it if he can that the Church is no where in all the Scripture taken for one companie through the world in respect of any outward gouernment or dependance which is the foundation of all your doctrine touching the Church but in regard of the common meanes of saluation by faith in Christ And here I might
ouer all Satans forces I thinke saith Ierome the gates of hell are vices and sinnes or surely the doctrines of heretickes by which men being entised are led to hell Doth any of these writers expound this place of such a companie as you dreame of Nay doth not our Sauiour himself restraine it to the elect and yet apply it to euery one of them For who beside them is built vpon the rocke or which of them in his due time is not so built All that the Father giueth me shall come vnto me and him that commeth to me I cast not away And againe This is the Fathers will that sent me that of all which he hath giuen me I should lose nothing but should raise it vp againe at the last day Secondly the consequence of your maior is yet more weake because you misinterprete the text as if our Sauiour meant to promise a perpetual continuance of his Church vpon earth by saying that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it For hereby it must needs be granted that the gates of hell do preuaile against all such Christians as by persecution or any violence are taken out of the world Yea Peter himselfe and his fellow Apostles to whom this promise was first made found not the true performance of it in their owne persons but were ouercome by the gates of hell Do you magnifie our Sauiours promises that make them faile so notoriously euen to the Apostles themselues The gates of hell saith Theophylact are temporall persecutors who endeuor to send Christians to hell Heretickes also are gates leading to hell The Church therefore hath preuailed against many heretickes and persecutors The gates of hell saith your Glosse shall not separate the Church from my loue and faith Persecutions of tyrants saith Lyra assaults and tentations of wicked spirits shall not preuaile by subuerting the Church from the true faith Brugensis speaketh yet more plainly The gates of hell shal not preuaile saith he so that the Church shal be ouerthrowne that is separated from Christ or fall away from saluation by Christ or faile of it The Apostles and other holy Martyrs and Christians were ouercome in regard of their continuance vpō earth but not separated frō Christ nay rather they are more nearly ioyned to him It is one thing to say the Church that is they that truly beleeue in Christ shall by no power of Satan and his instruments either inward or outward be seuered from Christ or faile of saluation by him another to affirme that there shall alwayes be some on earth that shall beleeue and make profession of the Gospell Bellarmine applies this text one while to the generall Councels approued by the Pope which as he saith by reason of this promise cannot erre either in beleeuing or in teaching another while to the vniuersall Church and to the sea of Rome which absurdly and falsly he maketh the rocke vpon which the vniuersal Church is built so that by the Church according to Bellarmine Rome or Peters seate as he calleth it must be meant first and principally from which at the second hand the vniuersall Church must haue her perpetuall stabilitie But what should I stand any longer vpon this place hauing shewed that the promise is not of the Churches continuance without interruption but of the certaintie of their saluation that beleeue truly in our Sauiour Christ and so being built vpon the rocke cannot be shaken downe or ouerthrowne by any storme In this sense I grant the minor our Sauiour hath made a promise that no one member of his shall perish though the gates of hell send out and employ all their forces against him He that confesseth and beleeueth with Saint Peter shall be saued with Saint Peter But I denie the minor according to the sense you make of it concerning the perpetuall continuance of a certaine companie without interruption or error and yet I beleeue the Catholicke Church and that at all times there are some true members thereof vpon earth chosen to life and iustified by faith in Christ A. D. §. 4. Thirdly I may confirme the same out of other Scriptures where the perpetuitie of the church is either affirmed or promised of which kind of testimonies being very many I wil onely rehearse some few Of the Church if we wil beleeue S. Austin his exposition it is said Deus fundauit eam in aeternum God hath established it for euer And of it signified by the name of the kingdome of Christ the Prophet Daniel saith Suscitabit Deus coeli regnum quod in aeternum non dissipabitur The God of heauen shal raise vp a kingdom which shal not be broken in peeces for euer As is also said in S. Luke Regni eius non erit finis there shall be no end of his kingdome A. W. These few are more then need for the proofe of that wherof no man doubteth but if they were twice as many their weight would be too small for the matter you vndertake to proue by them as it wil appeare by the weighing of them in the ballance of true reason That say you which God hath established for euer so that there shal be no end of it must alwayes continue without interruption till the worlds end But God hath so established the Church that there shal be no end of it Therefore the Church must alwayes continue without interruption till the worlds end That the Church shall continue in all times and ages as I haue often said we grant and maintaine that such a Church as you fancie to your selues either shall be alwayes or euer was in the world since the Apostles we vtterly denie Farther I say your proposition is false because the continuance of the church dependeth not vpon her being in the world but vpon her being ioyned to Christ And if the Church shal remaine euen after this world is ended and then especially flourish what folly is it to thinke it continueth not vnlesse it be vpon the earth May I not certainly conclude that it shall continue after this world because it is established for euer How then doe you gather hereupon that it ceaseth to be if it be not in this world at all times without interruption Was not this spoken of the Church of the Iewes also Is not the like affirmed of the ceremonies And yet neither of these hath continued nor did continue without interruption while they stood before the time of their abolishing That the Psalme was written either wholy or principally of Ierusalem and of the Church of the Iewes belonging thereunto both the course of it manifestly sheweth and he that considereth the expositions of it by Ierome and Austine and what ado they haue to fit the seuerall verses thereof to the Church of Christ will easily be perswaded But what Church meane they thinke you Such a companie of men as you talke of
is vnpossible because God doth not reueale this point to men neither are they able to iudge who are truly iustified and sanctified and who are not Secondly the question is whether the catholicke Church spokē off in the Creed can be discerned by the same bodily sight or no we say it cannot because it containeth none but the elect you say it can because it consisteth of all them that make profession of christian Religion vnder the absolute gouernment of the Pope of Rome The onely true meanes to make a full end of this controuersie is to shew what the Church is of which the Creed the Scriptures speak so many and so glorious matters This point you haue not once touched but either ignorantly or craftily concealed that difference betwixt vs and alledge that for the definition of the Church which if it were true as it is euidently false yet is but one priuiledge of the Church and expresseth not the nature of it But let vs leaue these matters and consider what it is that according to your former discourse you are to prooue Now that is say I that there alwaies hath bene since our Sauiours comming is and shall be to the end of the world a companie of men famous and visible in the world so that all men at all times may discerne that they are the true Church of Iesus Christ. For that I may in part vse your owne words as they follow in this chapter if at any time it could not be knowen then the men that liued in that time wanted necessarie meanes whereby they might attaine to the knowledge of true faith and consequently whereby they might come to saluation Giue me leaue to apply that to all men which you speake of all times If there euer were are or shall be any men to whose sight the Church was not so visible that they might discerne and know it then those men wanted necessary means whereby they might attaine to saluation which if it were so say you how is it vniuersally true which is vniuersally said in Scripture God would haue all men to be saued and to come to the knowledge of the truth Do you not perceiue that your reason necessarily requireth to haue it prooued that the Church is visible as at all times so to all men For if it faile in either of these respects your consequence will follow that some men haue wanted necessarie meanes of saluation and so God would not haue all men saued Therefore you propound the question verie insufficiently when you say We inquire whether the Church at any time be inuisible so that no man can see those men c. For though at all times some men may see and know it yet vnlesse all men at all times may you haue prooued nothing to purpose in this whole Treatise A. D. §. 2. In which matter my Assertion is that the Church of Christ of which the places of Scripture afore cited do speake must alwaies be visible This I prooue first by that plaine Prophesie of Isaias in the 61. Chapter Which Chapter to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ and his Church we may gather out of Saint Luke where our Sauiour himselfe citeth some words out of that Chapter and expoundeth them to be fulfilled in himselfe The words of the Prophesie are these Foedus perpetuum feriam eis scietur in gentibus semen eorum Omnes qui viderint eos cognoscentillos quoniam isti sunt semen cui benedixit Dominus I will make a perpetuall couenant or league with them and their seede shall be knowen among Nations all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seede which our Lord hath blessed How could he more plainely haue foretolde the visiblenesse of the Church The places of Scripture afore cited speake not all alike some of them concerne the Apostles onely and that not onely as they are a companie but as they are seuerall teachers authorised by our Sauiour Christ with so high and absolute a commission some belong to all true christians as well seuerally considered one by one as taken iointly all together Some appertaine to all Ministers some reach to all professors of the truth of the gospell How then can you truly say that the true Church of Christ of which the places of Scripture afore recited doe speake must alwaies be visible The Apostles haue not bene visible these 1500 yeares The elect that is the Church built vpon a rocke neuer was nor euer shall be visible in this world All Ministers were not nor can be visible to all men All professors neither are the true Church of Christ nor can by any meanes possible be seene of all mē as one church but with the eies of the mind Particulars are subiect to sense but vniuersals are discerned onely by vnderstanding Your assertion then is false but we will take it as it is set downe by you supposing that those places of Scripture speake of the Church in generall Yet we may not forget that the second point must needs be added concerning all men and so your assertion must be this The true Church of Christ must alwaies be visible to all men liuing To make way to your argument out of this prophesie you go about to prooue that the Chapter is to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ his Church your proofe lieth thus Our Sauiour himselfe citeth some words out of that Chapter expoundeth them to be fulfilled in himselfe Therefore that Chapter is to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ and his Church This consequent doth not follow vpon that Antecedent First because the whole chapter may be written of our Sauiour himselfe and yet not of his Church also Secondly because some part of it may be of our Sauiour and yet not those words you alledge For who is he that knoweth not that one and the same Chapter often times conteineth diuers prophesies belonging to diuers matters and parties But though your proofe be naught your opinion is true For those words that whole chapter concerne our Sauiour and his Church Let vs see how you reason If our Sauiour promise to make a perpetuall couenant with his Church and that their seede shall be knowen among nations and that all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seed which our Lord hath blessed then the Church must alwaies be visible to all men liuing But our Sauiour hath promised to make a perpetuall couenant with his Church that their seed shall be knowen among nations and that all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seed which our Lord hath blessed Therefore the Church must alwaies be visible to all men liuing I denie the consequence of your Maior Though our Sauiuiour made such a promise and indeed hath and doth daily performe it yet it doth not follow thereupon that the Church must alwaies be visible to all men Shall the promise
is not ordained to be such a light rule and meanes To your proofe touching the light I answer with diuers of the auncient that our Sauior speaketh to and of the Apostles not of the Church in succession from time to time All the Apostles saith Chrysostome are the light to whō he said Ye are the light of the world These were the light of the eyes of the two testaments the Law and the Gospel For they by the light of our Lord enlightened for vs the old and new testaments He that reproueth those things that are done secretly is the light quoth Theophylact. For all that maketh any thing manifest is light But they the Apostles enlightned not one nation but the world So doth Austin somtimes expound it So Ierom Hilary Remigius Lucas Brugensis a learned Papist not onely applieth this text to the Apostles but also affoords vs a second answer You are that is saith he you must be or ought to be the light of the world that you may carry the light of the Gospel into the world he set round about with darknesse And thus in a manner do Austin and Hilary expound it But let vs vnderstand it of all teachers that they are the light of the world as indeed they are in a certaine proportion What then Will it follow hereupon that therefore the Church is at all times visible to al men The Apostles themselues whom this doth especially concerne were not so For many thousands in the world died after the generall commission giuen to the Apostles before it was any way possible for them to take any knowledge of such Preachers or of the Gospell Your great Cardinall Bellarmine will needs haue the place expounded not of the Apostles doctrine but of their conuersation which is not so easie and readie to be knowne as their preaching was Tertullian applieth it to the behauiour of all Christians Why hath our Lord saith he compared vs to a light and a hill if we shine not in the midst of the darknes if we hold not vp our heads in the middle of them that lie drowned But out of question this holinesse of true Christians is not alwayes visible to all men neither can it belong to your Church the members whereof may be vtterly void of true faith and loue saue onely in the outward profession Take it how you will for doctrine or manners or both you are neuer a whit the nearer If I would presse the words I could say that our Sauiour requires no more in this place of the light but that it giue light to all them that are in the house that is to all in the Church or at the most to them that are neare neighbours thereunto For what candle is there so bright that the light of it can be seene ouer all the world What though our Sauiour call his Apostles the light of the world doth he meaue that they all ioyntly together considered as a companie are so or that euery one of them seuerally is the light of the world If you will haue it spoken of them as the Church and else it cannot serue your turne to proue the perpetuall visiblenesse of the Church I doubt how you will be able to shew that they were the light of the world For they did not enlighten the world by any ioynt act of them all together but by their seuerall preaching in seuerall places Neither did they perswade men to beleeue because they were such or such a company but euery one of them taught the doctrine of the Gospell and was of himselfe without relation to all or any of the rest the light of the world in that part where it pleased God to blesse his labours to the begetting of faith If you say that euery one of them was the light of the world as doubtlesse euery one was then will it not follow that because the Church is the light of the world therefore it must be at all times visible to all men For neuer any one of the Apostles was so no nor all of them as I said before many thousands being taken out of the world after the Apostles began to preach ere they could possibly haue any glimpse of such a light To conclude the Apostles were and the Ministers in some sort now are the light of the world because by their preaching it pleaseth Almightie God to open the eyes of worldly men that they may turne from darknes to light and from the power of Satan to God that they may receiue forgiuenesse of sinnes and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith in Christ not as if any or all these must at all times be visible to all men but that there may be meanes for the saluation of those whom the Lord of his infinite loue hath chosen out of the world to be heires of his endlesse glory By all men we may vnderstand either euery particular man or all sorts of mē If you wold proue that which you vndertake you must meane euery particular man as I haue shewed in answering the fifth Chapter and as it is apparent in this afterward where you repeate that which before you had deliuered concerning Gods will to haue euery man saued one and other But I know not how in the proofe of your proposition you seeme to expound all men by all sorts of men How can it be a meanes say you by which at all times the infallible truth may be made knowne to all sorts of men if it selfe at any time could not be knowne of men In this sense if I should grant your whole fyllogisme yet would the point in question remaine still vnproued For the Church may be ordained for the light of the world and for a rule or means whereby all sorts of men may come to faith and saluation and yet at no time be visible to euery particular man To speake more plaine your proposition may be vnderstood two seueral ways first thus that all men shall be taken in the one part of it namely in the antecedent or former part for euery particular man in the other for all sorts of men If it be thus vnderstood I say the consequence is naught Secondly those words All men may haue the same signification in both parts of the proposition yet in two diuers senses For they may be taken either for Al sorts of men and then as I haue shewed the syllogisme proueth not that which is in question or for euery particular man in which sense onely I allow of the proposition as true and to the purpose It had bin better therefore that you had spared the proofe of it especially vnlesse you could haue done it better The light which is not put vnder a bushel is not the church but the apostles He teacheth them saith Theophylact to endure the trial and to haue great care of their conuersation as they
able to bring any place of Scripture in which the holy Ghost so speaketh of the church I deny not that all Christians agreeing in one profession may in some sort be said to be of one church but that the Church whereof the Scripture speaks and of which we therefore must speake if we will speake to any purpose is to be conceiued as any one such societie The same word the same sacraments the same kind of gouerners may be in diuers churches and yet not all these be one societie We may imagine the like in common wealths or kingdomes that seuerall states may haue the same kind of lawes customes and magistrates and yet not be all one kingdome or common wealth Your second fault is that vndertaking to define the true church you content your selfe with the same faith and the same sacraments whereas no company nor man can be of that church but they that hold the true faith of Christ and the right vse of the sacraments The third thing I will obserue is rather by way of explication then of refutation you require the gouernment of lawfull pastors as a thing essentiall to the church If you speake of that church to which our Sauiour makes those goodly promises in the Gospell it may be for a time without such gouerners the promises themselues not concerning the whole bodie in respect of their lawfull Pastors but euery particular in regard of his faith in Iesus Christ And indeed howsoeuer it be true that to the being of a Church as it is commonly taken it is necessary that there be both a pastor and a people yet a people depriued of their pastors by what meanes soeuer and hauing no dependance vpon any other congregation doth not cease to be such a Church as our Sauiour promiseth to protect from spiritual and bodily enemies yea a people so destitute hath power to chuse a pastor for themselues and therefore are still in some sort a Church because that power is no where out of a Church but is appropriated to the companies of beleeuers who make seueral Churches though not properly and fully Churches for want of lawfull gouerners In the last place I may not omit to note your craft in adding to your definition of the Church the gouernment of lawfull Pastors as if you would haue the ignorant imagine that there were certaine Pastors who had some ioynt gouernment of the Church for example perhaps your Pope and his Councell of Cardinals or a Councel of Bishops assembled by his authoritie and gouerned by his direction In this sense we vtterly denie that any gouernment of Pastors is necessary to the being of a Church though we gladly embrace the helpes of Synodall prouinciall nationall and generall Councels All true Churches properly so called are gouerned by their seuerall Pastors but this makes them not one church as long as there are not more or at the least one gouerner cōmō to thē al. This the learned of your side discerning though you cannot or wil not see it neuer define the Church without relation to one generall pastor the Pope of Rome As for the seuerall pastors be they neuer so lawful they do no more make their congregations one Church in respect of their gouernment then the Companies of London because they are gouerned by their Maister and Wardens seuerally make one bodie without respect of their common subiection to the Lord Mayor of that citie You wil then perhaps demand of me whether the Church be not a meere sound onely hauing nothing truly answerable thereunto indeed I answer to this question that the Church is more then a meere sound and hath a thing in nature truly answerable to the name and that in two respects For the Church may be taken for the whole multitude of them that in all places of the world professe the Gospell of Iesus Christ and in this sense it containes all saue the Iewes and the heathen Secondly the Church truly and properly is the companie of the elect that are called to true faith in Iesus Christ More particularly it signifieth such of the elect beleeuers as are liuing in the world And this is that Church to which those glorious and comfortable promises of our Sauiour do appertaine though there be also some promises of outward blessings which are common to all Churches and professors of Christian Religion Now these elect thus called are truly a Church because they are a companie linked together in the sound profession of the same true faith and members of the same mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ vnder the gouernment of the holy Ghost his Vicegerent I do not take vpon me exactly to define the Church but onely to shew in grosse what is necessary to the being of it nor perhaps all that but the especiall point where in you haue failed which is subiection to one and the same Lieutenant and Soueraigne not to diuers of the like kind seuerally as your definition seemeth to require But of this matter enough Now I answer to your minor that there was no necessitie of the Churches visibilitie that it might be such a societie as you imagine For there haue bin and easily may be such societies which may be and haue bin hid from all the world saue those of their owne companie Consider I pray what should hinder this Is it not possible for a companie of men to professe the same religion but other men must needs be priue to that their profession It is like enough that such a company growing to a great multitude and ordinarily holding the exercises of their Religion will in time be discouered as it fell out with the true Christians in the late persecution vnder Queene Marie But this proueth not that therefore there cannot be any such societie but the world must needs take knowledge of it Could your detestable traitors band them selues together in that monstrous plot of treason and murder by gunpowder yea and assemble so often and worke so hard in the diuels seruice without being descried and cannot God by his prouidence keepe his seruants meeting together for his worship but that Satan shall certainly discouer them It is more then manifest how long or short a while soeuer they may keepe themselues vnknowne that they may be such a companie and not by and by be knowne The second point in the first part of your minor is this and thus concluded If the Pastors were to know the sheepe and the sheepe the Pastors and this could not be vnlesse the Church were visible then was this one reason of the Churches being visible But the Pastors were to know the sheepe and the sheepe the Pastors and this could not be vnlesse the Church were visible Therefore this is one reason of the Churches being visible I may graunt you the whole Syllogisme in the termes it is propounded by you and yet neither I lose nor you get any thing For there is no more concluded by it but
that the church must be visible to the members of it the Pastor must know the sheepe and the sheepe the Pastor Which of vs euer denied this visibilitie or what is this to proue that the Church in the beginning of the Gospell was to be famously visible in the eies of all the world In a word then to your propositions seuerally you must adde to your maior one of these two clauses either to the members of it signifying that the Pastors and sheepe could not know one another vnlesse the Church were then visible to the members of it or to all men meaning that there could not be such mutuall knowledge betwixt the Pastor and the sheepe vnles the church were visible to all men In the former sense your proposition is true but altogether wide from the marke you ayme at In the latter you shoote right but a great deale ouer For though your consequence by this meanes wil proue true and to the purpose yet your minor wil be ouerlarge and your question stil remaine vnproued For it is ridiculous to imagine not onely to affirme that the Pastor and flocke cannot know each other except all the world know them too Why may not the like be said of the husband and the wife the father and the children the maister and the seruants May there not be gouerning and obeying but where all men see these actions performed But I dwell too long vpon so cleare a matter Onely I was desirous to suite my answer somewhat like to your argument for the length of it lest shortnesse might make your followers thinke it not well answered We are now come to the third point of the former part which you conclude thus If men that were out of the church were to come into it for saluation and this could not be vnles it were visible then was this one reason of the visibilitie thereof But men out of it were to come into it for saluation and this could not be vnlesse it were visible Therefore this is one reason of the Churches visibilitie This is the onely argument of the three that hath any shew of reason in it and yet this also is far from any necessary proofe For if in your minor you meane that all and euery man was to come into the Church for saluation as if God had intended the saluation of euery particular man by the publishing of the Gospell your said minor is in that respect false For our Sauiour himselfe giueth his Father thankes that he had hid the mysteries of the Gospell euen there where it was publikly preached from the wise and men of vnderstanding and reuealed it to babes or simple men Yea he professeth that there was an especiall act of God his Father required to the drawing of men to beleefe euen there where himselfe preached most powerfully and that some only and not all were so drawne by God Neither doth the difference in this case proceed from man but from God lest that man which makes the difference betwixt himselfe and another should haue iust cause to boast as if he were more beholding to himselfe of whom he had the very act of being willing to be saued then to God who onely gaue him power to be willing Therefore your glorious and Angelicall D r. Thomas saith that there can no more reason be giuen why God intendeth the saluation of this man and not of that man then why the Mason layeth this stone aboue and that below each of them hauing a like fitnesse to each place But if by men you vnderstand those men that were chosen of God to euerlasting life to whom onely the preaching of the Gospell was effectuall to true faith and saluation then I denie your minor in regard of the latter part also For there was no necessitie of the visibilitie of the Church to that purpose as if God could not otherwise haue procured that they should beleeue and be saued I adde farther that the meanes which it pleased God to vse for the conuerting of those that were then to be saued and ordinarily for publishing the glad tidings of the Gospell was not the visiblenesse of the Church but the preaching of his Apostles So that as I signified before the greatest natiōs of the world embraced the Gospell of Iesus Christ not because they saw some visible Church to which they might adioyne themselues but for the euidence of the truth which some one man or other preached to them without any reference or respect to any visible Church whatsoeuer The dissoluing of the visible Church at Ierusalem was the occasion of preaching the Gospell through the world Hauing thus examined your seuerall proofes I returne now to your principal assumption for the farther confuting wherof I must shew that there may be some reason giuen why it might please God to haue the Churches visible in the beginning and not alwayes To which purpose I must first intreate all men to vnderstand that I do not vndertake precisely to set downe the reasons why God wil haue his churches somtimes famously knowen sometimes hidden from the knowledge of the world For his counsels are vnsearchable and his wayes past finding out Farther I acknowledge in all truth and humblenesse that I hold the reuealed will of God for a sufficient reason of any thing which he doth will though I could in my ignorance obiect somthing against it which might affoord some cause of doubting With this protestation I say these might be some reasons First wheras the means of saluation had bin for a long time shut vp in the land of Iurie and in a manner made proper to the Iewes now the partition wall being broken downe the Gentiles also were to be receiued into the Couenant which to our reason at least could not conueniently haue bene done vnlesse the profession of the truth had bene famous and visible But when once by this meanes the sound of it was gone ouer the world there was no such necessitie of continuing visible Churches Secondly this visibilitie was at the first the more necessarie because otherwise the Iewes to whom first the Gospel appertained being dispersed in many nations could not so easily take knowledge of it now they haue iudged themselues vnworthie of it and the Lord hath giuen it to vs Gentiles Thirdly it was no small proofe of the truth of the Gospell and the power of God working by the ministery of the word that so great multitudes should so speedily be conuerted by so weake meanes there is not alwaies the like vse of the Churches visiblenesse Fourthly though the Lord in his mercie would haue the Gospell published to the world yet when it became generally abused to wantonnesse that mens eares itched after new doctrines and esteemed more of their owne deuises then of the true worship of God appointed by himselfe it pleased his maiestie to leaue men to their owne blindnesse and presumption reseruing to himselfe
a small companie here and there whom he kept as the 7000 in Elias time Lastly it was requisite that the prophecies in Paul and Iohn concerning Antichrist and his tyrannie and vniuersall Apostacie should be fulfilled which could not haue come to the iust height of extremitie if any Churches at least in those parts where Antichrist preuailed had continued visible These are a few of those reasons which in the blind iudgement of man not able to sound the depth of Gods secrets might be an occasion of making the Churches of Christ cease to be famous and of keeping the true professors shut vp in the wildernesse till the time appointed by God for Antichrists decay and ruine approached Yet did not the Lord all this time leaue himselfe and his truth without witnesse but from time to time stirred vp the spirits of his children to make the world search the Scriptures and discerne if they would that your Church of Rome so famous visible was corrupted with many errors and become the verie seat of Antichrist Thus I haue answered your fift reason in the conclusion whereof you adde a testimonie of Scripture to confirme the necessitie of the Churches perpetuall visiblenesse to all men If say you that prophecie of Esay Thy gates shall be continually open must at all times be true then the Church is visible at all times to all men But that Prophecie must be true at all times Therefore the Church is visible at all times to all men Though you ordinarily leaue out that clause of the Churches visiblenesse to all men yet I make bold to supply it because I am desirous to perswade my selfe that you doe so rather for shortnesse sake then in a craftie purpose to deceiue the Reader I denie the consequence of your Maior first because that prophecy may be alwaies true and yet the Church not alwaies visible For all prophecies in Scripture are alwaies true as being from God and yet doth it not follow hereupon that therefore whatsoeuer is prophecied must alwaies be true It was prophecied by God himselfe that the children of Israell should be seruants in Aegypt May I then say as you do If this prophecie must alwaies be true they must alwaies be seruants in Aegypt I trow not Prophecies are alwaies true but true onely according to the meaning of them that such or such things must be at the time and in the manner signified by them If you say your meaning is no more but that if that prophecie be true then the Church is alwaies visible to all men I answer that At all times was put in without cause and might as you see breed a question in your proposition Secondly taking your Maior in that sense I still denie the consequence of it For the gates of the Church may be open at all times yet all men neither see thē alwaies open nor know that there are any such gates or Church Might not the gates of Mexico or some Citie in the East Indies China or America be alwaies open and yet none in these westerne parts euer heare of any such Citie You will say perhaps that the Prophet by the gates being open signifieth the visibilitie of the Church It is not enough to say so vnlesse you prooue it too But that I may yeeld somewhat of my right in this case and not put you to your proofes in so hard a matter I answer with Austin speaking of such prophecies and promises that this place belongeth properly to the Church of the elect into which without any restraint many of the Gentiles do enter continually from day to day by their actuall beleeuing truly in Iesus Christ Which answer may the better appeare to be true if we consider that this promise is made to the Iewes whose Church-gates must alwaies stand opē to entertain the Gentiles coming vnto it But this can no way be true of the outward Church of the Iewes which then florished in Ierusalem was vtterly destroyed some fortie yeares after our Sauiours ascension Therefore it must belong to that remnant of Israel which is according to the election of grace Do not replie to this answer that the gates of this Church were alwaies open euen before our Sauiours coming For this Church in respect of the Gentiles had not a gate then but a little wicket which stood not alwaies open but was opened now and then vpon occasion when it pleased God to bring some one or other of the heathen extraordinarily to saluation by the acknowledging of the Messiah to come These gates are now haue bene this 1500 yeares and vpward shut vp against the Iewes as the Apostle lamentably coplaines not as some imagine because the visible Church was translated frō the Iewes to the Gentils which Paul would neuer so ambitiously haue affected as in respect of that To be contented to become Anathema that his countrimen might enioy the glorious smoke of such an outward priuiledge I speake in comparison of election to euerlasting life but for that the Lord would giue ouer his people the Iewes and not choose ordinarily out of them heires of his heauenly kingdome as before he had done We see and reioyce at the sight that the Lord of his great mercie calleth out some few from amongst that desperate multitude of the Iewes as before he did out of the Gentiles but the gates are now set open for the Gentiles and a small posterne for the Iewes But what if I should grant you that this prophecie may also be expounded of the outward profession of Religion must the Church then needs be visible at all times to all men The maine reason of the gates continuall standing open is signified by the Prophet to be this That the strength of the nations and their kings may come into the Church But this was long ago fulfilled by the iudgement of your owne writers The strength of the nations that is the most warlike nations saith Vatablus which saith he was fulfilled when the Romanes were added to the Church The opening of the gates Lyra referreth to Constantines time and therefore in his iudgement they were shut more then 300. yeares after Christ And so farre is he from once thinking on the visibilitie of the Church prophecied of in this place that he brings three other interpretations and not mentions your conceit The gates shall be open because saith Lyra Constantine commaunded that the Church gates should be opened which before were shut and that new Churches should be built This also may be expounded saith he of spirituall opening because the Church is alwaies open to receiue them that repent And because since Constantines time men began to flocke to the Church of Christ without feare The strength of the nations was brought because saith the same Author by the example of Constantine many Potentates and kings came to the faith of Christ The gates of the Church said
Ierome before Poperie was hatched shall alwaies be open to them that desire to be saued that entrance may not be denied either in prosperitie or aduersity to them that will beleeue Thus this place of Esay will not prooue the visibilitie of the Church to all men at all times A. D. §. 7. Sixtly the onely reason and ground by which heretickes hold the Church to be inuisible is because they imagine the Church to consist onely of the elect or onely of the good But this is a false ground as appeareth by the name of Church in Greeke Ecclesia which euen by the Etymology of the word doth signifie the companie of men called now sure it is that moe are called then elected as our Sauiour saith Multi vocati pauci electi Againe this ground is shewed to be false by those parables in which the Church is compared to a floare wherein wheat and chaffe are mixed And to a mariage to which came good and bad And to a net wherein are gathered all sorts of fishes good and bad And to ten Virgins wherof fiue were foolish and excluded from the celestiall mariage This ground is also shewed to be false out of Saint Paule who commaundeth the Corinthians to expell an incestuous person out of the Church Ergo before this expulsion there was such a person in the Church and therefore the Church doth not consist onely of those that be good A. W. Because your owne reasons are not strong enough to proue the point in question you thinke to helpe the matter by ouerthrowing the ground whereupon onely as you confidently auouch we build our deniall of the Churches visibility at all times But neither is that our onely ground and if it were you are not able to shake it Concerning the former we denie the visibilitie of the Church as it is vnderstood in those places where our Sauiour promiseth spirituall graces to it and as it is taken in the Creed because that Church is the mysticall bodie of Christ and therefore can consist of none but those that are truly iustified and sanctified as none but the elect are But we farther denie the same visibilitie because you would haue vs beleeue that the Catholicke Church is visible To which we answer that this Catholicknesse let the Church be what it will maketh it inuisible because that which is Catholicke is generall consisting of many particulars and we haue learned that vniuersals are not subiect to sense but onely to be conceiued by the minde as hauing no outward shape which can be seene or knowen by any of the fiue senses Moreouer if we take the question in the most reasonable sort that may be and so it is verie seldome handled by you Whether there must alwaies be some one or other companie of men that may be famously knowen of all the world to be a true Church of Christ Still we continue in denying that visibilitie First as it is propounded by you for an Article of Faith and an essentiall propertie of the or a true Church Secondly because we are taught in the Scriptures that the true Church that is the professours of Christs true Religion shall be faine to flie into the wildernesse and so must needes be out of the sight of at least the greatest part of the world I am loth to repeate these things so often but you driue me to it my helpe is to do it as shortly as I can All the forces you bring to ouerturne the ground vpon which our denial of the Churches visibilitie stādeth are diuided by you into two bands with the former whereof thus you set vpon vs. The companie of men called consisteth not of the elect onely The Church is the companie of men called Therefore the Church consisteth not of the elect onely I denie your Minor many men are called that are not of the Church which consisteth of such onely as being called are also elect It is true that the word Church is sometimes so generally taken that it compriseth all such as make profession of faith in Christ but this is not the Church of which the Creed speaketh and to which our Sauiours promises apppertaine yea besides this Church there is the true Church of Christ whereof he is head whose bodie hath neuer a rotten or dead member such as ouer many perhaps the greatest part of them that make profession of beleefe commonly are In a word the whole course of your Treatise failes in this point that whereas the word Church is diuersly taken you apply that to it in the generall meaning of the word which was spoken of it by our Sauiour the Prophets and Apostles in that speciall signification by which it containeth none but the elect To your proofe I answer farther First that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the verie nature of it doth not signifie The companie that is any certaine companie called but generally a company that is any such companie whatsoeuer Secondly I adde that the word is also sometimes taken for a companie whether called or not called as I haue hated the companie of the wicked Where the Prophet speaketh not of any companie called together but absolutely of the wicked howsoeuer assembled or not assembled Thirdly I say it is enough in respect of the nature and Etymology of the word that the Church be a companie of men called neither can it any way be enforced from the signification of it in Greeke that the Church must needs comprehend all that are in any sort called Indeed the elect onely may truly be said to be called in an especiall manner because they haue besides the outward sound of the preacher the inward voice of the spirit and are not onely called to beleeue the truth of the Gospell but also to beleeue truly in Iesus Christ to saluation This is your rereward with which you charge vs afresh and that as it were both with foote and horse First you throng together many places of Scripture as if your confidence were greater in your number then in vour valour Let vs encounter you That which is compared to a floare wherein wheat and chaffe are mixed To a mariage to which come good and bad To a net wherein are gathered all sorts of fishes good and bad To ten virgins whereof fiue were foolish and shut out from the coelestiall mariage consisteth not of the elect onely The Church is compared to such a floare marriage net virgins Therefore the Church consisteth not of the elect onely A verie hot assault but your bullets fall a great way short of the marke you do or should aime at For all you prooue by this reason is onely this that the Church taken for the whole companie of them that make profession of the Gospell consisteth not onely of the elect Who euer dreamed it did You are so farre from ouerturning our ground that you neuer once come neare it for all this braue shew
you make In particular I denie your Minor The Church we speake of is not compared to any such things The Church saith Austin which groweth in all natiōs is preserued in the lords wheat and shall be so preserued to the end till it haue taken possession of all yea euen the most barbarous nations The floare in Austins iudgement is not the Church but the place rather in which the Church is kept for that as he truly saith is the wheat And in the same Epistle he speaketh yet more plaine of an other of your parables That is the Church saith Austin which swimmeth in the Lords net with naughtie fishes from which in heart and behauiour it alwaies is separated Could any thing be spoken more direct The floare and the net are in a generall sense the Church but the true Church indeed is in the one the wheat not the chaffe in the other the good fishes that swimme among the naughtie ones I may also farther except against these Parables because they are otherwise applied then they are intended by our Sauiour who neuer meant by any one of them to teach that the Church consisteth not of the elect onely Who saith Austin can without great impudencie go about to prooue anything for his purpose by interpretation of any Allegorie vnlesse he haue manifest testimonies whereby those matters that are obscure in it be cleared This is your last charge to as small purpose as either of the former If there may be an incestuous person say you in the Church then it consisteth not onely of those that be good But there may be an incestuous person in the Church Therefore the Church consisteth not onely of those that be good It is apparent that by good you vnderstand those that cannot be charged with any grosse outward sinne as Incest or such like In which sense I say your conclusion is nothing to the purpose For we do not affirme that no man is of the Church which by any occasion falleth into some grieuous sinne so should we exclude Peter when he denied his master Dauid when he committed adulterie and murther Noe when he was drunke Abraham when he lied and many other who for all these sinnes held fast their faith in the Messiah and continued true members of Iesus Christ according to Gods election howsoeuer those sinnes of theirs deserued separation from Christ and damnation The Church may consist of some who for the present are in regard of some great sin not good and yet consist of the elect only as the former examples shew Farther I denie the consequence of your Maior It is not all one to be in the Church and of the Church that is to be an outward professor and to be a true beleeuer And that the Church is the companie of the elect in the iudgement of the ancient writers these testimonies shew Ambrose maketh the Church the people whom God hath vouchsafed to adopt Whereas the Church saith Austin is so described in the Canticles that it is called a fenced garden my sister spouse a fountaine sealed vp a well of liuing water a paradise with fruite I dare not vnderstand this but of the holy and righteous The holy Church quoth Gregory is a garden because when it begets many to the faith it sends forth faire flowers like a good ground And it is well called a fenced garden because it is fortified round about with the trench of charitie that no reprobate may come into the number of the elect If the spouse of Christ which is the Church be a fenced garden saith Cyprian being shut vp it cannot lie open to the prophane and strangers But what should I recite seuerall testimonies Looke Origen Bernard and other writers vpon the Canticles and you shall easily see that the spouse of Christ is the companie of the elect A. D. §. 8. Lastly the ancient Fathers did teach that the Church is visible Origen saith Ecclesia plena est fulgore ab oriente vsque ad occidentem The Church is full of brightnesse from the East to the West Ecclesia saith S. Cyprian Domini luce persusa radios suos per orbem spargit The Church being bright with the light of our Lord doth spread her beames throughout the world Facilius est saith S. Chrysostome solem extingui quà m Ecclesiam obscurari It is more easie that the Sunne should be extinguished then that the Church should be obscured that is to say darkened and quite without light Saint Augustine also alluding to or rather expounding those words of our Sauiour Non potest ciuitas abscondi supra montem posita saith Ecclesia supra montem constituta abscondi non potest The Church being built vpon a mountaine cannot be hid And againe in another place he saith Quid amplius dicturus sum quà m caecos qui tam magnum montem non vident qui contra lucernam in candelabro positam oculos claudunt What shall I say more but that they are blind who do not see so great a mountaine who shut their eyes at the candle set vpon the candlesticke A. W. These and such like speeches of the Fathers were vttered by them for the most part concerning the Church as it flourished in their dayes and not of the perpetuall estate therof from time to time Neither speake they properly of the Church which is indeed the spouse of our Sauiour the bridegroome but of the multitude of them who hold the truth of doctrine against all cauils and oppositions of hereticks amongst whom only the Church of the elect ordinarily was preserued Your reason then is little worth The Fathers say the Church is visible Therefore it is alwayes visible to all men The consequēce of your Enthymem is naught as wel because it might be visible in those times and not always as also for that it is not all one to say it is visible and it is visible to all men at all times Now to the particulars First I answer to Origens testimonie that he speakes not of the Churches visibilitie but affirmes that the truth which is the brightnesse or light he mentions is in the Churches euery where East and West That this is his meaning it is plaine by the beginning of that homily and the whole course of it to the very place you alledge Origen expounds there that place of the Gospell As the lightning cometh out of the East This exposition begins thus We must know saith Origen that the brightnesse of the truth doth not appeare in one place of Scripture and cannot be defended by another but that it may be maintained out of all parts of Scripture the Law the Prophets the Gospels and the Apostles writings And this truth arising from the East that is the beginnings of Christ shineth to the very time of his passion in which was his setting or fall A little after We
may also thus vnderstand it that Christ appeared to be the word and the truth and wisedome frō the beginning of the creatiō of the world to the last writing of the Apostles that is from Genesis to the Apostles books after which there are none of like authoritie or beleef Or thus that the Law and the Prophets continued till Iohn in whom the brightnesse of truth was The East was the Law the West Iohn the end of the Law Now onely the Church neither takes away the word and sense of this brightnesse nor addes any thing else as propheticall The place you bring lieth thus Euery doctrine professing it selfe to be truth when it is not truth either among the Gentiles or among the Barbarians is in some sort Antichrist going about to seduce as truth and to seuer vs from him that said I am the truth Therefore we must not giue eare to them which say Behold here is Christ but do not shew him in the Church which is full of brightnesse from the East to the West which is full of the true light which is the pillar and ground of truth in which whole Church the whole comming of the Sonne of man is Now the comming of the Sonne of man is before expounded by him to be the word of truth Doubtlesse if you had not taken this proofe vpon Bellarmines or some other mans credit you would neuer haue brought it to proue the visibilitie of the Church to all men at all times What saith Cyprian in the place alledged but that the Church is dispersed ouer the whole world Doth this proue that it is at all times visible to all men Or hath Cyprian any such purpose in that place Is not his whole drift to shew that there is but one Church because the truth they professe is but one The title of his booke is Of the vnitie of the Church The place you bring concludes that howsoeuer the beames are scattered or spread here and there yet the light is but one The Church that is true beleeuers were in this land in the dayes of persecutiō and is now in Spaine Italy and perhaps in Rome it selfe This proues not a perpetuall visibilitie What need we any other answer to this testimonie of Chrysostome then that which your owne exposition affoords vs Chrysostoms meaning is that the Church cannot be quite without light say you What thē Must it needs be visible then to al men The Moone is neuer wholy darkened no not in the greatest eclipse nor in the change but is alwayes in the one halfe light and yet he were mad that would conclude hereupon that therefore it may be seene at all times of all men Indeed Chrysostome speaketh of the continuance of the Church not of the visiblenesse thereof That may appeare by his saying that the Church hath her roote in heauen rather then in the earth This argues stabilitie not visibilitie And what Church hath rooting in heauen but onely the Church of the elect The Church saith Chrysostome in the same place is more honorable then heauen because heauen is made for it not it for heauen Is heauen made for any Church but that of the elect Besides it was not the visibility but the being of the Church against which those tyrants whom Chrysostome there mentioneth so mightily laboured which yet continued in despight of them all These and such like places of Austin shew the flourishing estate of the Churches in those times and conuince the Donatists against whom Augustine writ of wofull blindnesse who would see no church but their owne heretical assembly in a part of Africa But they neither were intended not can with any reason be applied to proue that the church is alwayes visible to all men The former of the two places as I shewed before is interpreted by the Fathers of the Apostles That the Apostles saith Ierome should not hide themselues for feare but freely shew themselues he teacheth them to preach boldly when he saith A citie set vpon an hill cannot be hid But let vs take it to be meant of the Church It must needs be a monstrous hill that can shew a citie set vpon it to the whole world A citie standing on a hill is the easier and the farther to be seene but there is no hill high enough to be seene ouer the whole world I would farther know whether euery particular Church be not a citie vpon an hill or no. And yet is no such Church to be seene of all men Concerning the latter place Austin worthily cals them blind that could not or rather as he truly saith would not see that great mountaine vpon which the Church then stood but would shut their eyes against the light that shined vpon them Yet who is so ignorant that he knowes not or so shamelesse that he will not cōfesse that there were many aliue at that very time which had no knowledge that there was any Church in the world But there neither were nor could be any such among the Donatists or other like heretickes who forsooke the Church to follow their owne fantasies The candle is the Minister or the word shining by his ministery the candlesticke is the particular Church where that ministery is if any liuing in or neare the place where such a candle burneth bright will not see the light of it he may well be called wilfully blind So may not they which are so far that the beames of the light cannot shine vnto them Now the summe of that which hath bene answered concerning the perpetuall continuance and visiblenesse of the church is this that the church to which that continuance is promised is the number of the elect and not any one outward companie of men succeeding one another in a famous and visible profession of Christian Religion Yea farther though we do not vndertake to affirme that there hath not bin at all times some one companie or other of true Christians knowne to them among whom they liued to be professors of the Gospell yet we doubt not to say that there can be no sufficient proofe brought out of the Scriptures that there must of necessitie be alwayes such a company as if our Sauior Christs promises to his church were not performed vnlesse the world might at all times perceiue where such a companie were to be found A. D. CHAP. XIII How we should discerne and know which is the true visible Church of Christ A. W. It may perhaps seeme needlesse that I should proceed any further in the confutation of this treatise because still the maine point that there is such a Church is presupposed and not proued But howsoeuer it be true that there is indeed no one visible church of Christ which may challenge or beare the name of the whole church yet it will be worth the doing to finde out the markes or signes by which we may discerne which congregation is a true church of Christ and which is not
that in time of persecution many true Christians may be without opportunitie of meeting together for the true worship of God in hearing his word and calling vpon his name which alwaies accompanieth true preaching and yet still continue true members of Christs mysticall bodie the Church But we say that these men cannot be truly called such a visible Church of Christ as we now seeke for Yet if these men shall ordinarily assemble themselues together to offer vp praier to God and by mutuall conference to edifie each other in knowledge and obedience thogh they haue no certaine minister appointed for the performance of these duties there can no reason be alledgd why they should not be held for a true Church though not perfect complete or why men should not ioine with them hauing no means to become members of any complete congregation properly being a Church The word then in our opinion is simply necessarie and of it selfe sufficient as Luther truly saith where no other signe of a Church can be discerned to conuince a mans conscience that there is a true Church where he findeth the word truly preached Now the administration of the Sacraments is not so necessarie but that there may be a true Church without it vpon occasion as the Iewes had no circumcision amongst them all the fortie yeares when they trauelled through the wildernesse The reason of this difference is assigned to be this that the word is as it were the cause efficient of the Church so that without it there can be no Church but the Sacraments are only seals of Gods mercies and helps for the increasing of those graces which are receiued by the ministerie of the word Now these seales and helpes are not requisite simply to the being of that they seale helpe vs in but onely to the better being and increase of them But if I may be bold with reuerence of other mens iudgement to speake my poore opinion I think this reason sheweth the different necessitie of the word and the Sacraments rather to the making of particular men true Christians thē to the giuing of this or that companie the true being of a visible Church And therefore vnder correction I would rather say that the truth of doctrine deliuered in the ministery of the word and praier are absolutely necessary the administration of the Sacraments not so altogether because the former are such parts of Gods seruice as may and must alwaies be performed when the Church is assembled but the Sacraments neither can alwaies nor need at all such meetings to be administred Which we speake not as if the true vse of the Sacraments were not a necessarie part of Gods seruice to be done vpon all opportunities with reuerence and willingnesse but for that as before I noted there cannot be at all times such opportunitie Yea it may fall out that in some true Church of Christ there shall be no occasion to administer the Sacrament of Baptisme in many yeares This then is that which we hold concerning the markes of a true Church First that wheresoeuer we see the word of God truly taught and the Sacraments truly administred there we may be sure there is a true Church of Christ Secondly that wheresoeuer the former of these is wanting there is no true Church whatsoeuer shew or marke otherwise there be Thirdly that wheresoeuer the word of God is truly preached and accordingly professed there is a true Church though the Sacraments vpon occasion as is aforesaid be not there administred so that they be not neglected vpon any contempt or erroneous conceit of their not being necessarie To disprooue our doctrine concerning the markes of the or rather of a Church you bring this reason If true doctrine be a marke of a true Church then either true doctrine in some pointes or true doctrine in all But neither true doctrine in some points nor true doctrine in all is a marke Therefore true Doctrine is not at all a marke of a true Church I denie you Minor True doctrine in all points is so certaine a marke of a true Church that wheresoeuer we finde that we may be sure there is a true Church But because we enquire after such a marke as may not onely assure vs which is a true Church but also teach vs to know euerie true Church I answer more particularly that true doctrine in some pointes viz. such as are fundamentall is so necessarie a marke as that there is no where any true Church but where there is such true doctrine and that there is vndoubtedly a true Church wheresoeuer that truth is taught and held Your Minor you prooue thus first that true doctrine in some points is no good marke That which is not proper to the true Church but agrees rather to heretickes is no good marke of the true Church But true doctrine in some points onely is not proper to the true Church but agreeth rather to heretickes Therefore true doctrine in some points onely is no good marke of the true Church Againe I denie your minor taking it in the best sense for if I should take it in the worst your whole syllogisme would be nothing to the purpose My answer shall I trust make both these points plaine to euery man I say then that true doctrine in all the fundamentall points of religion is proper to the Church so that no hereticks hold all such points though some haue held many of them Or if any companie do hold them all and yet for some error in other points of lesse moment be counted and be hereticall their heresie is not such as may make them cease to be members of a true Church Thus much of your assumption in the best sense By true doctrine in some points onely you may meane that it is not a propertie belonging to the true Church to beleeue truly some points onely and not all and this indeed is rather proper to heretickes then the true Church because it is the dutie of all true Churches to beleeue all things that the Lord hath taught in the holy Scriptures whereas hereticks take vp conceits of their owne which they mingle with the truth of God either ignorantly or deceitfully I haue reason to suspect this meaning because you thrust in this word onely In this sense your conclusion fighteth with a shadow For we do not make it a marke of a true Church to beleeue some points onely but say it may be and is a true Church though it erre in some points so it hold the fundamentall points soundly and truly This is the proofe of the second part of your minor that true doctrine in all points is not a good marke of the true Church and it is thus concluded Euery good marke of the true Church is apparent or easie to be knowne of all those who should seeke out the true Church But true doctrine in all points is not apparent or easie to be known of
not perceiue those things which are of the Spirit of God For sith none by the onely power of naturall wit which in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries which we beleeue by our faith neither doth the Spirit of God who as the principall cause infuseth this gift of faith into our soules ordinarily instruct any man in the knowledge of true faith immediatly by himselfe alone or by an Angell sent from heauen we must needs if we will haue true faith seeke first for that which it pleaseth Almightie God to vse as the ordinarie instrument and as a necessary meanes by which men may learne true faith the which is no other but the preaching and teaching of the true church according to that saying of S. Paul Quomodo credent ei quem non audierint quomodo audient sine praedicante quomodo praedicabunt nisi mittantur How shall they beleeue him whom they haue not heard how shall they heare without a Preacher how shall they preach vnlesse they be sent Therefore the true Church which only hath preachers truly sent of God must first be found out that by it we may heare and know which is the true faith Therefore of the two the true Church is rather a mark whereby we may know the true preaching and consequently the true doctrine of faith then contrarie that as heretickes say the doctrine should be a marke whereby all men must know which is the true Church A. W. Belike as you had good cause you suspected your abilitie to proue simply that the true preaching of the word in all matters fundamentall and the right administration of the sacraments are not a good marke of a true Church And therefore you rather chose to proue by way of comparison that the true church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by For so runs your conclusion directly If the end of seeking the true Church say you be principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine then the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by But the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points which otherwise wee cannot attaine to Therefore the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the Church by Though the conclusion as I said be not directly to the question which is not comparatiue but simple whether true doctrine be a good mark to discerne a true Church by or no yet I will take it as it is and answer to the parts of it Your maior in the antecedent may haue a double meaning First that we cannot in any point learne true doctrine but by the Church and then I denie the consequence For true doctrine in the fundamentall points of Religion may be a good marke of the true Church though we seeke the true Church because there are many points which we cannot learne without it But howsoeuer you vnderstand the maior the minor is euidently false First because the principall end of seeking the true Church is that we may truly worship God in the assembly of his children to his greater glorie and our farther assurance of his loue to vs as we may see euery where in the booke of the Psalmes Secondly because we are not to learne of the true Church as a necessarie and infallible meanes but of the ministers thereof who are appointed by God to giue vs knowledge of the meanes of saluation by expounding the word of God to vs not to binde vs to beleefe by their authoritie Your minor you offer to proue in this maner If no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries and faith be not to be had but by the teaching of the true Church then the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may learne by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine But no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries nor faith be had but by the teaching of the true Church Therefore the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessary and infallible meanes learne the true faith in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine The consequence of your maior is naught It doth not follow that we seeke the true Church to learne of it as a necessary and infallible meanes because we cannot know the mysteries of Religion without faith which commeth by the teaching of the true Church For there may well be teaching and learning without any such authoritie in the Church that teacheth Your minor is very doubtfull as I will shew in answering seuerally to the parts of it First then whereas you say that no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries if you meane that a man cannot acknowledge the truth of such mysteries without faith your minor in that part is true but if your meaning be that a man cannot vnderstand what the meanes of saluation appointed by God are without faith I take your minor to be false For though those meanes be indeed such as no discourse of man euer could deuise or thinke on being vtterly supernaturall yet it is possible for a meere naturall man to learne what they are out of the Scriptures and that without faith because the Scriptures may be vnderstood by such helpes of the tongues and arts as humane learning doth affoord vs though to the sauing knowledge thereof the especiall grace of God be absolutely necessarie The other point that faith cannot be found but by the teaching of the true Church may also haue a double sense The first that faith cannot be wrought in any mans heart but by the preaching of some man authorized to that purpose by the true Church and this as I shewed before is not alwayes true for faith may be and hath bene begotten in some by the reading of the Scriptures where the ministery of the word was not to be had and by the teaching of ordinarie Christians not set apart to preach the Gospell The other meaning is this that faith cannot be attained to but by our hearkning to the voyce of such a Preacher as we alreadie know to be sent by the true Church And this indeed specially fits your purpose but hath no likelihood of truth in it For they that came to faith by the Apostles preaching did not beleeue them as men autorized for their instruction by the true church but as being conuinced in their consciences by the euidence of the truth they deliuered without
or happinesse This done thou shalt be sure to find by the euidence of truth manifested in those bookes that they are sent from God and not deuised by man If thou liue in such a place as affoordeth the interpretation of these bookes by the ministery of men vse that singular blessing of God with reuerence and care to vnderstand and thou shalt by the mercifull teaching of God acknowledge these books to be the word of God ordained for the saluation of thy selfe and other This will some man say may perhaps breed a perswasion that these bookes are from God but how shall we come to be infallibly sure of it How else but by the worke of the spirit of God in thy heart What say you must we runne to reuelations Who knowes the secrets of God but the spirit of God The truth it selfe discerned by that light which the spirit kindleth in our hearts worketh assurance of beleefe to which the testimonie of the spirit is added for our further confirmation Neither is this any other reuelation then you Papists require in this case For according to your doctrine no man can be perswaded infallibly of the truth of the Scripture either for the text or the interpretation but by the especiall teaching of the spirit otherwise he hath not faith but opinion of these matters Onely herein stands the difference betwixt vs that you say the argument whereby the spirit perswades vs to acknowledge the Scripture is the authoritie of the Church we affirme it is the euidence of truth which he makes vs to discerne by our vnderstanding enlightened and to approue by our will thereto inclined through his mightie and gracious worke vpon our soules The second part of your minor is that we could not haue knowne the Gospels of the foure Euangelists to be canonicall Scripture rather then those of Nicodemus and Thomas if we had not the testimonie of the Church Of the falsnesse of which opinion I shall need to say little because it is refuted in my answer to the former part For this knowledge is not bred in vs by resting vpon the Churches authoritie but by yeelding to the euidence of the truth discouered to our hearts by the teaching of the holy Ghost Concerning the authoritie of the Church in this point it were a presumptuous and vnreasonable thing for any man without very good proof or great likelihood of reason to deny or doubt of that which hath bin auouched so many yeares by the whole Christian world But to make question of the bookes of Scripture whether they be the word of God or no and to denie that there is any meanes to know them for such but the authoritie of the Church is the next way to open a gap to Atheisme to lay open Religion to the scorne of the world Can I not know the Scripture to be of God but by the authoritie of the Church How shal I then know it at all since it is not reasonable to beleeue there is any Church that hath such authoritie but by the warrant of the Scripture They do all they can to turne reasonable creatures into beasts who teach vs that we must beleeue the Church cannot erre because the Scripture saith so and yet denie that we can know there is any Scripture but by beleeuing it because the Church saith so This is to dance in a circle as if a man were coniured that he could not get out of it How shall I know there is a Church by the Scripture How shall I know there are any Scriptures by the Church Would your proud Clergie thus make fooles of Christian men if they did not despise them as voyd of all reason I wonder how your Pope Cardinals Bishops and the rest of your Cleargie can for beare laughing when they looke one vpon another and remember how they cosen and if I may vse the word in a matter of such importance gull the world with such palpable fooleries But your strumpet of Babylon hath made the Kings of the earth and all nations drunke with the cup of her fornications exalting her selfe aboue all that is called God and making her selfe the God of her slauish vassals But the Lord is iust who according to the Apostles prophefie hath sent the world strong delusions that they should beleeue lies that all they might be damned which beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse And certainly if there were not a great measure of 12. blindnesse and sottishnesse in the hearts of men that Gods purpose might take effect it were vnpossible that reasonable men should so be lead by the nose to errour and destruction A. D. §. 5. Fourthly if the true doctrine of faith in all particular points must be foreknowne as a marke whereby to know the true Church then contrarie to that which hath bin proued the authoritie of the Church should not be a necessarie meanes whereby men must come to the knowledge of the true faith For if before we come to know which is the true Church we must by an other meanes haue knowne which is the true faith what need then is there for getting true faith already had to seeke or bring in the authoritie of the same Church A. W. This fourth reason and the next labour to proue that part of your first assumptiō in this Chapter which we deny not that the true doctrine of faith in euery particular point is not a good marke of the Church It would therefore be but lost labour to spend much time in the examining of them yet somewhat I must say and first to the former If the true doctrine of faith in all particular points must be foreknowne as a marke to know the true Church by then is not the autoritie of the true Church a necessary meanes to know the true doctrine of faith by But the authoritie of the true Church is a necessary meanes to know the true faith by Therefore the true doctrine of faith must not be foreknowne in all particular points as a marke to know the true Church by Your conclusion is no more then we grant the consequence of your maior about which you take some paines needs not your helpe for the proofe of it Your minor is false That which you brought before to prooue it before was answered A. D. §. 6. Fiftly if before we giue absolute and vndoubted credit to the true Church we must examine and iudge whether euery particular point of doctrine which it holdeth be the truth with authoritie to accept that onely which we like or which seemeth in our conceit right and conformable to Scripture and to reiect whatsoeuer we mislike or which in our priuate iudgement seemeth not so right and conformable then we make our selues examiners and iudges ouer the church and consequently we preferre our liking or disliking our iudgement and censure of the interpretation and sense of Scripture before the iudgement and censure of the
Church of God But it is absurd both in reason and religion to preferre the iudgement of any priuate man be he neuer so wittie and learned or neuer so strongly perswaded in his owne minde that he is taught by the Spirit before the iudgement and definitiue sentence of the Church of God the which is a companie of men many of which both are and alwayes haue bene vertuous wise and learned and which is chiefe is such a companie as according to the absolute and infallible promises of our Sauiour hath vndoubtedly the holy spirit among them guiding them and teaching them all truth and not permitting them to erre as before hath bin proued A. W. There is the same fault in this fift argument which was in the former that it is brought to proue a proposition which we denie not If before we giue absolute credit to the Church we must iudge whether euery particular point it holdeth be true or no then we may make our selues iudges ouer the true Church But we may not make our selues iudges ouer the true Church Therefore we must not iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no before we giue absolute credit to the Church This conclusion supposeth that which can neuer be proued that we are first or last to giue absolute credit to the Church whereof in this Chapter there is no question The point you vndertake to disproue is that the true doctrine of faith in euery particular point is a good marke of a true Church This therfore you should haue concluded though indeed it make nothing against our opinion who require not for a marke of the true Church truth of doctrine in euery point but in all points fundamentall Your proposition is deceitfully propounded as if we granted a companie to be the true Church and yet would take vpon vs to receiue and reiect what we list whereas we hold that we cannot acknowledge any true Church but we must withall yeeld that it maintaineth all substantiall points of Religion from which we may not vary Secondly for a man to make himselfe iudge ouer the Church is to take authoritie vpon him to censure reproue and condemne the Church wheras all that we desire is that it may be free for vs to discerne that the doctrine held by this or that Church is agreeable to the Scriptures before we acknowledge it to be a true Church It is meere absurd and vnreasonable to prefer any priuate mans iudgement before the definitiue sentence of the church of God But it is agreeable both to reason and Religion that euery priuate man whose saluation lieth vpon his true or false beleeuing should consider whether that which he is enioyned by men to beleeue be warrantable by the word of God or no. The Scribes and Pharises were the leaders of the people in the matters of Religion yet were they blinde guides and the blind people by depending vpon their iudgement were caried headlong into the same pit of destruction with them Were not the men of Beroea commended by the holy Ghost for searching the Scriptures that they might see whether the doctrine deliuered by Paul were agreeable thereto or no And yet shall it be a fault in vs to enquire of the same Scripture concerning the doctrine of your Apostaticall synagogue I say farther it is against reason and Religion to prefer any one mans iudgement before the definitiue sentence of many wise vertuous and learned men such as the Church hath vsually some amongst the members thereof But it is most reasonable and religious to prefer the truth of God manifested by one simple man before the contrary determination of all that euer haue bin or shal be of the Church though neuer so wise vertuous and learned This is that which we teach concerning this matter First that no man is bound to take any thing for a matter of faith but that which is proued to him by the Scriptures the rule of faith Secondly that no man is to condemne any thing held by the Church vnlesse he haue euident proofe on his side out of the Scriptures Thirdly that euery man in matters not determinable by Scripture none of which are necessarie to saluation should yeeld to the iudgement of the Church whereof he is a member and euery Church to the iudgement of the Christian Churches other where vnlesse there be some good reason to the contrary It is very possible for wise vertuous and learned men to erre for your priuiledge of not erring hath bin found to be counterfait who oftentimes follow the opinion of some one man whose learning and pietie they cannot chuse but admire Domingo à Soto affoords vs an example of this matter where hauing alledged a sentence out of Austin he addeth these words By reason of this saying of Austin quoth Soto all the Fathers afterward and the whole multitude of Diuines haue by good right deliuered it as a truth that the glorious Virgin neuer committed any actuall sinne though Chrysostome auncienter then he were of another opinion Let it be then vnlawfull as it is for a priuate man to prefer his owne opinion before the iudgement of a whole Church and in this sense I graunt your minor yet is it not vnlawfull for him to examine what any or all Churches teach or to dissent from it if he haue the Scripture for his warrant A. D. §. 7. But you may perhaps say that in Scripture we are willed not to beleeue euery priuate spirit but to trie spirits whether they be of God or no and that therefore we must examine and trie the spirit of the Church by looking into euery particular point of doctrine which it teacheth I answer that in that place of Scripture it is not meant that it belongeth to euery particular man to trie all spirits but in generall the Scripture giueth the Church warning not to accept euery one that boasteth himselfe to haue the Spirit and willeth that they should trie those spirits not that euery simple or priuate man should take vpon him to trie them but that those of the Church to whom the office of trying spirits doth appertaine to wit the Doctors and Pastors which Almightie God hath put in his Church of purpose Vt non circumferamur omni vento doctrinae that we may not be caried away with euery wind of doctrine and Vt non simus paruuli fluctuantes that we may not be little ones wauering with euerie blast of those that boast themselues to be singularly taught by the spirit So that this trying of spirits is onely meant of those spirits of which men may well doubt whether they be of God or no and then also this triall belongeth to the Pastors of the true church But when it is certaine that the spirit is of God we neither neede nor ought doubtfully to examine or presumptuously to iudge of it but submitting obediently the iudgement of our owne sense
reason not only against Scripture were ordained properly as the ministery of the word the seruice of Angels for their sakes that are to be saued according to the election of God Secondly and as it were accidentally for the hardening of them that will not beleeue to leaue them without excuse To make your matter the more likely you tell vs of our Sauiours loue to mankind which in your diuinity is without exception or respect of persons How then can it sute with the purpose of God his Father who hath chosen some to glory refused other meerly of his owne iust will without respect of difference in the parties so chosen refused As for I that loue of mankind wherupon some men conclude that either all or the greatest part of men are loued by God to eternal life it is not to be vnderstood by comparison of men to men but partly of men to the Angels that fell in which respect the Apostle amplifies the mercy of God to vs He tooke not the Angels but he tooke the seed of Abraham partly of men to all other creatures none of which besides man is vouchsafed the honour to be ioyned in vnity of person with the Sonne of God and so to be made heire of euerlasting glory It is needlesse to repeat what I answered before to this place of Isay onely I will say thus much of your exposition that though all that see the Church may know it yet it doth not follow that therefore all men may see it which you make the end of planting a visible Church that euerie man may learne how to be saued We denie not that the markes of the Church are such as that any man who hath the meanes and will vse them with conscience and diligence may come by the grace of God to the acknowledging of it and by the ministerie of it to saluation Such is the truth of doctrine wherein euerie man may be instructed who will submit his reason to the euidence of truth conteined in the holy Scriptures and not wilfully resist or carelesly neglect the worke of the spirit in the ministerie of the word The bands and chaines Austin speaketh of are not said to draw a man out of the world vnto the Church but to hold him in it that is in already And surely he were vnreasonably absurd that being borne in the profession of Christianitie or by any other occasion brought to ioyne himselfe vnto this or that Church would not cōtinue his beleefe vpon those groūds that Austin there mentions as long as there could be no sufficiēt reason brought to the contrarie yea though he could not discerne the truth of many points which he held as he had bene taught But Austin in the same place professeth that the markes he names and all other whatsoeuer whereby he is held in the Catholicke Church are nothing worth in comparison of truth manifestly prooued out of the Scripture But of this matter I shall haue occasion to speake againe hereafter where you propound some of Austins words more at large A. D. §. 2. Of these markes diuers authors haue written at large I for breuitie sake haue chosen out onely these foure Vna Sancta Catholica Apostolica One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke because I hope these will be sufficient and because I finde these especially set forth in Scriptures commended by Councels and generally admitted of all sorts both Catholickes and Protestants as now I am to declare First for the generall admittance of these properties of the true Church I need no other proofe but that both Catholicks and Protestants allow of the Nicene and Constantinopolitane Creed wherein we professe to beleeue the true Church the which Church is there described with those onely foure properties which before I named as though by those onely euery man might sufficiently know that Church which in euerie point they are bound to beleeue Now if besides this proofe out of the generally receiued Counsels some precise man would haue me prooue these properties to agree to the true Church out of the Scripture it selfe this also I may easily doe A. W. So many and diuers are the markes of the Church propounded by your Popish writers that you had good cause to giue some reason why you cull these foure out of all the rest First you alledge breuitie wherof if you had beene so desirous you would not so often haue repeated the same matters You adde the sufficiencie of these their being mentioned in the Scripture commended by Councels and generally admitted by all sorts both Catholickes and Protestants All which taking them in your sense are generally false as shall appeare in the particular handling of them But indeed the true cause is though you will not be knowne of it that Bellarmine out of whom you haue patched vp your whole discourse though he bring fifteene yet confesseth that they may all after a sort be reduced to these foure There are two faults in this proofe whereby you labour to perswade vs that these properties are generally admitted both by Protestants and Papists First though both admit them yet in diuers senses we according to the true meaning of those Councels you according to those phantasies you haue deuised for the establishing of your Apostaticall Synagogue Secondly we admit them not all as markes of the or a visible Church but as hidden properties of the Catholicke Church the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ which are not to be discerned by the eye of the bodie but by the light of faith as all other articles in the same Creed are What though there be no more properties but those foure there set downe will it follow thence that therefore they are named as though by those onely euerie man might sufficiently know the Church Is that the vse of those points which are deliuered concerning the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost Or rather are they not set before vs as principall matters to be beleeued of them So are also these properties of the Church If any man be so simple as to take your former proofe for good whereas it faileth in the chiefe point you would prooue by it as I haue shewed he is fitter to be pittied then instructed But is it a note of precisenesse to desire proofe for matters of faith out of the scripture Doubtlesse it was then no lesse precisenesse to appoint the scripture for a rule of our faith and as great for our Sauiour Christ and the Apostles to confirme their doctrine out of the scripture For this course of theirs makes vs the bolder to require the like of you whose authoritie we more doubt of whereas if they had stood vpon their priuiledge and neuer troubled themselues with proouing that they deliuered or leauing their doctrine in writing we should easily haue perswaded our selues to rest vpon mens authoritie and not to looke for any proofe by scripture But giue me leaue a little to consider of this
is your purpose in this place to prooue that the Church is holy A labour that might well haue bene spared for who euer denied it or doubted of it But let me againe put you in minde that when you haue prooued the Church to be holy you haue got nothing because euerie qualitie of the Church is not by and by a marke whereby it may be knowne It may be proper to the Church so that it can neuer be found but in the Church and yet not be alwaies there to be found It may also be true alwaies and yet not be alwaies visible But let vs see your proofe The Temple of God is holy The Church is the Temple of God Therefore the Church is holy The holinesse you meane as you expound your selfe is true and inward sanctitie which you say is wrought by the Sacraments And this indeed is the holinesse which onely can make a man a Christian For Thomas truly saith He that is not annointed with the grace of the holy Ghost is not a Christian Hereupon before I answer to your Syllogisme I will make it manifest by your owne argument that holinesse is no good marke to know the Church by Euerie good marke of the Church must be easier to be knowne then the Church it selfe True inward sanctity is not easier to be known thē the Ch. it selfe Therefore true inward sanctitie is no good marke of the Church The Maior is yours in plaine words generally deliuered The second thing required in a good marke is that it be more apparent and easie to be knowne then the thing is The Minor is prooued by these words of yours in the same place The secret disposition of a mans heart is harder to be knowne then the man himselfe how then shall true inward sanctitie be easier to discerne then the men in whom it is If by Temple you vnderstand the whole company as you plainly auouch and by holinesse true inward sanctity I denie your Maior Because the whole companie makes not one person or subsistence wherein onely there is place for such habits or qualities True inward holinesse is a qualitie no where resident but in some speciall substance and therefore if the whole companie of the Church haue not a generall soule as Auerrois dreamed of the world it is vnpossible it should haue true inward holinesse It should seeme also you saw as much your selfe and therefore giue vs an other exposition of the place that the whole companie is to be termed holy In this sense you must conclude thus The Temple of God is to be termed holy The Church is the Temple of God Therefore the Church is to be termed holy But this prooueth not that the Church is holy Do you thinke that the Nicene Councell when it deliuered it as an article of faith that we are to beleeue One holy Church meant nothing but that the Church was to be termed holy Yes they meant to teach vs that the true Church is truly holy being purged from the guilt of sinne by the sacrifice of our Sauiour Iesus Christ and indued with true habituall righteousnesse by the spirit of sanctification It is a poore marke to know the Church by to tell vs it is a companie that is to be termed holy What then is the Apostles meaning when he saith the Temple of God is holy Many interpreters take this whole passage of the Apostle frō the beginning of the 16. verse to be a reproofe particularly of the incestuous person and generally of all vncleane liuers and they by Temple vnderstand seuerall Christians sanctified by the Spirit of God who dwelleth in them and maketh them holy Thus do Cyrill Irenaeus and Cyprian apply the place Other whose iudgement in this text I rather follow thinke that the Apostle in these verses continueth his former discourse concerning the ministerie of the word diuersly vsed by diuers teachers some building vpon the foundation gold siluer and pretious stones other laying on it timber hay or stubble A third kind destroying the foundation by false doctrine of whom the Apostle here speaketh threatning them destruction because they destroy the Temple of God The reason whereof one of them giues in these words The Temple of God is holy To defile that which is holy saith Catharin deserueth destruction euen among the heathen For if any man hurt the walles of the Citie which the heathen accounted holy he was to die for it Now if this law were executed for the prophaning of walles and temples made with hands how much more ought the destroying of Christians who by faith and loue haue receiued the Lord Iesus be so seuerely punished Euen so much more saith Lyra as spirituall things are to be preferred before corporall By the Temple of God then the Apostle meaneth the congregations or Churches of professed Christians such as that of Corinth was These he saith are holy that is either consecrated to the worship of God which is the professed end of Christian assemblies or truly holy in regard that they make profession and so in charitie are to be taken but where the contrary euidently appeareth of being iustified and sanctified by the death and resurrection of Iesus Christ You giue two other reasons of their being termed holy the one that the profession of religion of itselfe wholy tendeth to holinesse How can this be a good mark to know the true Church by when euery company wil say their doctrine hath the same end and he that will beleeue it of any company must know and be able to iudge of euery point they maintaine Your second is that the Sacraments worke in vs as instrumentall causes true and inward sanctitie I will not enter into the question about the Sacraments what or how they worke it is nothing to the purpose But to the point what hereticall Church will not or may not say the like whether truly or falsely it skils not because that will aske a new examination such as euerie one that must know the Church cannot make Therefore this marke of holinesse is not a good marke to know the true Church by being inward and claimed by all companies of Christians Not onely some but all the members of the true Church of Christ are inwardly and outwardly holy being purged by his bloud and spirit And this their holinesse is so manifest ordinarily that there need none of your counterfeit miracles for the countenancing thereof especially since God neuer tooke that course in his Church to approoue any mans holinesse by the gift of miracles the vse whereof is to confirme doctrine when need requireth neither can any man from miracles conclude that he which worketh them is inwardly truly sanctified Was not Iudas one of them to whom power was giuen euen ouer the diuels Yet was he a thiefe a traitor and a diuell Many wil say vnto me in that day saith our Sauiour Lord haue we not by
the world A man may finde in the Scriptures that the true Church of Christ shal neuer faile but which outward companie of men is this true Church no man by this marke of future continuance can by any meanes discerne Wherupon I conclude that your Catholicknesse is neither for the name nor for the thing any good marke of any true Church whatsoeuer That by Catholicknesse vniuersalitie of time should be signified you presume but proue not and yet I am perswaded you are not able to alledge any one ancient author but late Papists that by the Catholicke Church vnderstands a companie that hath bin alwayes since the beginning of the Christian Church and shall alwayes continue till the second comming of our Sauiour Christ I doubt not that the true Church spoken of in the Scripture and the creed hath so bin and shall be but I say that no man conceiues this propertie to be signified by the word Catholicke The ground of my opinion is that hauing found diuers reasons alledged by the Fathers why the Church is said to be Catholicke I could neuer light vpon that concerning the time Austin ordinarily restraines Catholicknes to place as also Optatus doth Pacianus where he purposely enquires the reason of the name neuer once mentions it no more doth Cyril who yet assignes sixe seuerall respects in which the Church may be said to be Catholicke And surely if by Catholicknesse vniuersalitie of time be signified I see no reason neither I thinke can you shew me any why it should not as well include the time before our Sauiours comming and so the Church of God that then was as that which hath bin since his comming and shall continue till the end of the world So doth Thomas vnderstand the Catholicknesse of the Church stretching it from Abels time to the end of the world But your great maister Bellarmine vtterly denies that the Church before our Sauiours comming was Catholicke restraining this Catholicknesse to the Church of the Christians But because I acknowledge the truth of the doctrine I will not striue about the word though you should haue prooued the sense of the word and not haue giuen too much credit to Bellarmine who brings a place of Austin to prooue that vniuersalitie of time is required to make the Church Catholicke whereas there is not a syllable or a letter touching that matter in the place alledged No more is there in that other place of Bede which also he brings but rather we may proue thence that Catholicke belongeth to place It is therefore called Catholicke saith Bede because it is edified in one and the same faith ouer all parts of the world In the sentence next before he speaketh thus Whence the Church is called Catholicke hee teacheth saying All the Churches through all Iewry Galilee and Samaria had peace So doth your Canon expound Catholicke so Durand though he adde also two other reasons of the name but not that you bring As for the place you quote to prooue a needlesse question what doth it concerne the visible Church being spoken as Ierome sheweth at large and prooueth out of the Apostle of the Church of the elect Iewes or at the most of the elect in generall Before I examine that which you haue here deliuered touching the Catholicknes of the Church in respect of place I hold it very needfull to consider what was intended by the name Catholicke and how it hath bin vnderstood of auncient writers And because this latter point may be a meanes to giue vs some light for the discerning of the former I will begin with it in the first place Whether the word were in vse in the time of the Apostles or no so that any man was called a Catholicke Pacianus seems to stand in some doubt yet he lets it passe as granted that no man was then so called Once it is out of all doubt that it is no where in the Scriptures applied to any church or to any man or at all vsed As for the title Catholicke giuen to the Epistles of Iames Peter the first of Iohn and Iude it came not from the holy Ghost the inditer of those Epistles but was added afterwards by some man when the bookes of the new Testament were gathered together into one volume which may better appeare by the titles of the other Epistles also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. of Saint or holy Paul which inscription questionlesse neuer was of the Apostles owne setting downe That which I would haue obserued is that this name Catholicke was deuised and applied to the Church not by God in the Scriptures but by man and therefore it is of lesse importance and more vncertaintie yet no doubt not giuen at aduenture but vpon good ground and to good purpose For the original of it it is Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through the whole or all which we commonly call by two Latin names vniuersall or generall so that the Catholicke Church and the generall or vniuersall Church are all one To auow the antiquitie of this title giuen to the church the confession of faith which is commonly called the Apostles creede may be alledged wherin we professe that we beleeue the holy Catholick Church That this creed is very ancient it is out of question but that it was penned or indited by the Apostles themselues we haue no certaine proofe But to leaue this point and to returne again to the meaning of the words Catholick Church the auncientest authors in whom I finde them for they are not in Dionysius Ignatius Martialis Polycarpus nor in Iustine Irenaeus Tertullian Origen or any man within the first 200. years are Clemens Alexandr about the yeare 200. and Cyprian about the yeare 250. After them it grew very common especially in the Latin Church Cyprian himselfe hath not that I know of any where deliuered the reason of that title Catholick But Pacianus Bishop of Barcelona in Spaine purposely disputeth the question against Symproniā a Nouatian heretick assigning two reasons of the name in this sort If saith he I must giue a reason of the word Catholicke and expresse the Greeke in Latine Catholicke is euery where one or as the learneder thinke obedience to all Gods commmandements so that by his interpretation the Catholicke Church must be the company of them who in all places here and there professe one faith and liue in obedience to all the commandements of God This vnitie of true faith the Emperors respected Valentinian Gratian and Theodosius when they commanded that all they should be called Catholicks who follow the faith that S. Peter deliuered to the Church of Rome To this purpose is that of Cyril where he saith The Church is called Catholicke because it teacheth all things necessary to be knowne This interpretation of the word and reason of the title the Donatists gaue saying that the
Church was not termed Catholicke because of the communion that one Church hath with another throughout the whole world but because it obserueth all the commandements and sacraments of God To make short the reason of the title Catholicke attributed to the Church in the iudgement both of Greek and Latin writers is first the vniuersall dispersion of the church through all part of the world The Church saith Cyril of Ierusalem is Catholick because it is spred all ouer the world It is called Catholicke saith Austin because it is dispersed through the whole world See brethren quoth the same Austin in another place how the vniuersality of the Church spred ouer the whole world is commended The Church saith he is called Catholick because it is vniuersally perfect and failes in nothing and is spred ouer the whole world Where though he seeme to acknowledge the Donatists interpretation yet he addes the other as more principall And in the conference betwixt the Catholiks and Donatists the true Christians proued themselues to be Catholicks and so rightly called because they held communion with the Church spred ouer the face of the earth This is that vnitie which accordingly was implied in the title of the Catholick Church signifying an agreement in matters of faith which was betwixt the seueral true Churches in all places Hitherto may we reasonably refer that of Pacianus who saith that Catholicke is euery where one The vnitie is signified in that so many seuerall congregations make but one church in regard of that one faith which is cōmon to all the vniuersalnesse of this church in the particular assemblies is noted to vs by the word Catholik The Fathers in the Nicene councell thought good to expresse that vnitie by professing to beleeue one Church to which they added also Catholicke So saith Alexander Patriarch of Alexandria who was in the time of that Councell We acknowledge one onely Catholicke and Apostolicke Church So Theodoret afterward There is one Church scattered ouer sea and land wherefore we pray saying For the holy and onely Catholicke and Apostolicke Church And in another place Paul saith he nameth many churches not by any diuision of spirit but seuered by distance of place It appeareth then that by Catholicknes the vniuersalnesse of the Churches being in all places is signified But what was the reason why this title was added to the church In all likelihood it was first deuised and applied to the Church to signifie the breach of the partition wall which sometimes stood betwixt the Iewes and Gentils till by our Sauiours death it was cast downe This I speake vpon this supposition that the word Catholicke was as ancient in the Church as the time of the Apostles But if it were brought in afterward as I could easily perswade my self but for reuerence of other mens iudgments we may verie wel assent to Pacianus who writes of it in this maner When after the Apostles times heresies sprung vp and men wēt about to pul in peeces the doue of God that same Queen the Church by diuersity of names as euery seueral heresie had a proper name did not the Apostolicke people they that followed the doctrine of the Apostles require a sirname for themselues whereby they might make difference of such as remained vncorrupted with heresie lest the error of some should rent in peeces the vnspotted virgin of God Was it not meet that the principall head the true Church should haue a proper name to be knowne by It appeareth by these words that the reason of the name Catholick was at the first that there might be a title to distinguish sound Christians and true Churches from hereticks hereticall assemblies To which purpose that he might auow the vse of this name he signifieth that it had before bene vsed by Cyprian And afterward he affirmeth directly that the true Christian people are diuided from the hereticall when they are called Catholicke But you will perhaps demaund why Catholicke should be applied to make this distinction The reason thereof as I thinke is this The Gospell by the preaching of the Apostles was spred farre neere ouer the face of the earth accordingly diuers Churches in diuers places established all which agreed in the vnitie of the same faith and doctrine But Sathan who is alwaies watching to sow cockle and darnell among the wheat stirred vp here and there certaine peruerse and trouble some men who set abroach errors to corrupt the truth of Doctrine Now these teachers being discouered that there might be a difference of name betwixt true Christians and them for the name of christian was common to both so that euerie man might learne by the verie name to auoid the heretickes it was thought meete by the learned and carefull gouernours of the seuerall Churches that hereticks should be called by some speciall name either of their author or of some point of error which they held and the true professors should haue the title of Catholicks because they maintained the truth of that doctrine which was generally professed by the Churches of God In this sense Pacianus saith that Christian was his name and Catholicke his sirname Hee that shall aduisedly consider the vse of the word in Cyprian shall perceiue that Catholicke is opposed by him to schisme and heresie and that said by him to be done against the Catholicke Church which is done contrarie to the practise of the seuerall Churches in all countries So Clemens saith that heresies labour to rend the Church in peeces and he calleth the Church Catholicke because of the vnitie of one faith generally receiued as may be gathered out of him though indeed the chiefe thing which he respecteth in the vnitie of the Church is that All the elect are made partakers of one and the same saluation according to the couenant of God which in all ages hath bene one and the same Wherin he seemes to apply the terme Catholicke to time but the reason of the name by the generall and constant iudgement of the ancient writers is rather the generality of the Church professing the same doctrine in all places Therefore your great Bishop Melchior Canus expounding this title saith that the Church is called Catholicke because in euery country people and nation sexe and condition it is spred farre and neere And by this difference saith he afterward it is distinguished not onely from the Synagogue or Iewish Church but also from the conuenticles of hereticks So doth your catechisme of Trent set out by Pius Quintus vnderstand Catholicke The Church is called Catholicke because it is spred in the light of one faith from the East to the West receiuing men of all sorts be they Soythians or Barbarians bond or free male or female Then followeth the vniuersalitie of time containing all the faithfull which haue bene from Adam euen till this day or shall be hereafter till the
did borrow the propagation of faith and seeds of doctrine I make bold to alter your translation let the skilfull Reader iudge whether I haue cause or no. But what of all these Tertullian doth not say that no Church is to be accounted Apostolicke but that which can without interruption shew her descent from the Apostles nor that euery Church is true that can make such proofe of her original But whereas the hereticks against whom he there dealeth reiected and receiued Scripture at their choise and would neuer leaue wrangling Tertullian appeales to the iudgement of those Churches which were knowne to be founded by the Apostles and in which the truth was most likely to be found As for your argument of succession you shall heare Tertullians iudgment of it Let hereticks saith Tertullian in the same book faine a succession from the Apostles they shall get nothing by it For their doctrine compared with that the Apostles taught by the diuersitie and contrarietie thereof will declare that it came not from any Apostle or Apostolicke man because as the Apostles would not teach contrary one to another so Apostolick men would not deliuer doctrine contrary to the Apostles vnlesse they were such as were fallen away from the Apostles to preach otherwise then they did So then the chiefe triall of a true Church is by the doctrine of the Apostles and their successors in the truth because it is possible for hereticks to shew their descent from the Apostles or some Churches which had their beginning from the Apostles or Apostolicke men Yea it is manifest that the greatest heresies as the foure maine ones condemned in the foure first generall Councels had their beginning of them who could shew their pedegree step by step from the Apostles in respect of outward succession We haue soone how weakly you haue proued that personall succession is a thing belonging to the true Church it remaines that you proue it to be proper to the church and not common to it with heretickes To which purpose you thus reason No vpstart noueltie contrary to the former faith of the Church can haue any Apostle or Apostolicke man for founder thereof Euery heresie is an vpstart noueltie contrary to the former faith of the Church Therefore no heresie can haue any Apostle or Apostolicke man for the founder thereof How much more truly and reasonably spake Tertullian of the like matter when he said that no Apostolicke man taught contrary to the Apostles vnlesse he were such a one as was fallen from the Apostles He saw and acknowledged that it was possible for a man instructed by the Apostles themselues to forsake the truth of doctrine and become an author or maintainer of heresie Doth not Saint Iohn speake of some who being bred vp in the church by heresie departed from it What should I name Hymenaeus Alexāder Phygellus Hermogenes Nicolas and such like Hardly can you name me any heresie that euer tooke rooting but the first plant of it sprung vp in the nursery of the Church Therefore your maior is altogether vntrue being vnderstood as it is of Apostolicke men in respect of personall succession not of succeeding the Apostles in truth of doctrine But you thinke to make good your proposition by Tertullians authoritie who challengeth the heretickes to shew the beginning of their Churches from some Apostolicke men Is it possible you should either write or reade that sentence of Tertullian and not perceiue that it cuts the very throate of your cause Doth not Tertullian in the sentence alledged by you directly confirme our opinion and ouerthrow yours Let them shew vs their beginning saith Tertullian from some Apostolicke man Is that enough I if we beleeue you who define Apostolicknes by personal succeeding the Apostles But what saith Tertullian He in plaine termes requires such an Apostolicke man as perseuered with the Apostles and forsooke them not Now that by this perseuering with the Apostles and not forsaking them he meanes agreement in doctrine I proue it euidently by that which followeth in the same Chapter First Tertullian shewes that it is in vaine for them to pleade succession in place if their doctrine be found contrary to that which the Apostles deliuered I set downe the sentence before Secondly he doubts not to say that by the hereticks disagreeing from the Apostles in doctrine those Churches which cannot proue themselues to be Apostolicke by naming any Apostle or Apostolicke man as the first founder of them may yet conuince them not to be Apostolicke and are themselues to be counted Apostolicke because of their consent in doctrine with the Apostles This is the summe of Tertullians words the words themselues run thus To this triall namely by doctrine as the next sentence before sheweth shall the hereticks be called by those Churches which though they cannot alledge any Apostle or Apostolicke man for their founder as being of late and now daily planted yet agreeing in the same doctrine are neuerthelesse counted Apostolicke by reason of their agreement in doctrine Do you not see that Tertullian disputeth for vs against your pretended succession That he confesseth heretickes may alledge personall succession That he acknowledgeth those Churches for true which cannot deriue their pedegree from the Apostles or any Apostolicke man That he maketh the truth of doctrine agreeing with the Apostles a certaine and necessarie marke of the true Church And are you not ashamed for all this to bring Tertullian for an author of so grosse an error VVere you so blinde that you discerned not this your selfe or did you so despise your Readers that you presumed they would neuer haue the wit to see your ignorance or craft It is now discouered sufficiently and yet this one point more must be added that Tertullian requireth this shew of their Churches beginning not of all heretickes as you deceitfully alledge him if you read him your selfe and tooke him not vpon credit at some other mans hands but onely of those who pleade their continuance from the time of the Apostles If any heresies saith Tertullian dare fetch their continuance from the Apostles time that therefore they may seeme Apostolicke because they were while the Apostles liued we may say let them shew the beginning of their Churches let them vnfould the succession of their Bishops c. With such learning and conscience doe you Papists alledge the Fathers that he must needes be honester and wiser then you that will not beleeue you vpon your bare word VVe see then that to be Apostolicke in your sense is no good marke of a true Church because Hereticall Churches may so be Apostolicke and true Churches not Apostolicke and contrariwise that to be Apostolicke in doctrine as we expound it is a most certaine note whereby a true Church may be knowne and the same that we onely allow of A. D. §. 7. It appeareth therefore plaine enough that these foure properties One Holy
Catholicke and Apostolicke agree onely to the true Church and sith it is no hard matter for any to see or know which companie of Christians hath these properties as in the next Chapter I shall declare it is also plaine that these foure One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke being proper to the true Church and apparent enough are good notes or markes by which men may discerne which companie of those which haue the name of Christians and which professe as euerie companie professeth themselues to teach the true doctrine of Christ is indeed the true Church which doubtlesse teacheth in all points the true doctrine of Christ A. W. Nay rather it hath euidently appeared that neuer an one of these nor all of them together as you vnderstand them are any good markes of the true Church because euerie one of them is such as that either a true Church may be without them or at the least that no ordinarie man is able to iudge which Church hath these properties in it and which hath not Whereupon I may safely conclude that your grand syllogisme in this Chapter which any man may gather out of this last part of it is neither rightly applied to that which you were to prooue as I shewed in the beginning nor true it selfe either for the Maior or Minor as by my answer to it hath bin prooued And wheras you adde in the end that the true Church doubtlesse teacheth in all points the true doctrine of Christ we haue had too much triall of your weaknesse in iudging and boldnesse in affirming to beleeue this Cuckowes song of yours though you chaunt it ouer neuer so often A. D. CHAP. XVI That the Romane Church is One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke and therefore the true Church A. W. Although the Romane Church were One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke in such sense as you vnderstand these titles yet were it not therefore the true Church because there is neuer an one of these properties except it be holinesse which can be a marke of the Church to no man because no man can iudge of it but may for the nature of it agree to some hereticall assembly A. D. §. 1. Thus farre my discourse hath gone along all in generalities in shewing the necessitie of true faith and that this faith is to be learned of the true Church and that this Church continueth alwaies and is visible as being a visible company of men professing the true faith of Christ partaking his Sacraments and liuing vnder the gouernment of lawfull Pastors his substitutes and that whereas diuers companies of men take vpon them the title of this Church whereby same do stand in doubt which companie is the true Church there be certaine markes by which the true Church may be certainly knowne and discerned from all other companies or congregations and finally that these markes be those foure One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke which are certainly knowne to be the properties of the true Church both by the Nicene Creed and also by plaine testimonies of Scriptures and Fathers A. W. This generall discourse of yours hath bene generally so weak and so little to purpose that you are now as new to begin as you were at the first Shall I runne ouer these particulars here mentioned True faith is necessarie to saluation But not such a faith as you require which must be entire whole and sound in all points so that the misbeleeuing of any one should be damnable 2. This faith is to be learned ordinarily of the ministers of the true Church but not to be taken vpon their credit without any examination of that they deliuer by the word of God 3. There is no such Church and much lesse any such continuance and visibilitie of it as you imagine though it may be said there is one Church because all true Churches agree in the same doctrine of the Gospell as farre as is necessarie to saluation so that none of them ouerthroweth the foundation There are also certaine markes by which true Churches may be discerned from false but those you name as you vnderstand them neither are to be found in euerie true Church and to the vttermost of mans iudgemēt may be in heretical Churches Now whereas you say that those foure One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke are certainely knowne to be the properties of the true Church there is no certaine knowledge which are good markes either by the Nicene Creed or by the Fathers but onely by the Scriptures and neither that Creed nor the Fathers do approoue of these for markes of a true Church in such sense as you vrge them A. D. §. 2. Now it will be good to see if we can by these generall grounds conclude which particular company of men is the true Church of Christ a conclusion of exceeding great consequence as touching all matters in controuersie concerning the doctrine of faith as may appeare by the drift of all my former discourse For the framing of which conclusion we shall not need to bring in comparison all the companies or sects of diuers religions that haue bene and are in the world because euerie one can easily discerne of themselues and especially by the helpe of that which hath bene said that neither Turks nor Iewes nor whatsoeuer other infidels can be the true Church of Christ because these neither haue the name of Christians neither do they professe to haue the name of Christ Neither am I now to meddle with heretickes and schismatickes of former ages the which as they haue bin condēned by the generall consent of the Church so in continuance of time they haue bin worne out by the same Church in so much that euen the memorie of them God be thanked seemeth to be perished with them A. W. Out of all doubt if your generall grounds be true it is possible to conclude by them which particular companie or rather companies are true Churches of Christ For neither can the markes of a true Church agree to a false neither are they such as cannot be discerned where they are Of Iewes and Turkes indeed there can be no question but what say you to the Greeke Churches and their Patriarckes who pleade all these points for themselues as well as you do and are able to make as good proofe of their Vnitie Holinesse Catholicknesse and Apostolicknesse Yet are you farre from acknowledging these to be true Churches of Christ because forsooth they will not come vnder the slauish yoake of your Romish Antichrist Concerning the heretickes and schismaticks of former ages I would to God Christian Churches were as free of them as we desire But Sathan who in the beginning of the Gospell laboured p to choake the good seed with his cockle and darnell though for a time he continued in securitie and like a strong man armed at all points possessed his house in peace hauing procured a generall subiection to his eldest sonne Antichrist your Pope yet when in this as it were second birth of
their hands and consequently tying himselfe so to assist him and his successours with the guiding of the holy Ghost that they should alwaies propose vnto the flock of Christ which is his vniuersal Church the food of true faith and that they should neuer teach ex Cathedra any thing contrarie to true faith sith if he should not thus assist but should permit them to teach the Church errors in faith then the Church which he hath bound to heare this Pastor in all points might contrarie to his purpose erre nay should by him be bound to erre which without blasphemie cannot be said All Catholicke learnedmen therefore knowing this do acknowledge that the definitiue sentence of this chiefe Pastour either alone or at least with a generall Councell must needs be alwaies an vnfallible vndoubted truth and that therefore they may safely yea they must necessarily submit all their iudgements and opinions either in interpreting scripture or otherwise in matters concerning religion to the censure of this Apostolicke seat The which while they do as they must alwaies do if they will be accounted Catholicke men and will not cast out themselues or be cast out of the companie of Catholickes how is it possible that one should dissent from another in matters of faith or at least obstinately as hereticks do erre in anie point of Faith So that this difference may be assigned betwixt any sect of heretickes and the Romane Church that heretickes are a companie not vnited among themselues by any linke which is able to containe and continue them in vnitie of faith whereas the Romane Church is Plebs sacerdoti adunata grex Pastori suo adhaerens as S. Cyprian saith a Church should be a people ioyned to their Priest and a flocke cleauing to their Pastor whom whilst it heareth as it is alwaie bound to do it is vnpossible but that it should retaine the vnitie of faith like as on the contrary side according to the saying of Saint Cyprian Non aliunde haereses obortae sunt aut nata schismata quà m inde quòd sacerdoti Dei non obtemperatur nec vnus in Ecclesia ad tempus Sacerdos nec vnus iudex vice Christi cogitatur Not from any other roote haue heresies and schismes sprung vp but from this that men do not obey the Priest of God neither do they consider how that in the Church there is one Priest and one Iudge for the time in steed of Christ. A. W. In propounding these matters against vs of your proofe I will speake afterward there are a few things worthy obseruation that your dealing may be manifest to all men First you talke of the Protestants Church as if we like you fancied to our selues some one church beside which there should be none in the whole world whereas we acknowledge seuerall Churches in diuers countries to be entire in themselues without dependance of any one vpon any other Yet do we not denie that there is a certaine communion betwixt and among all true Churches which consists in their agreement in doctrine about all matters of the foundation and the mutuall helpes of prayer and of other Christians duties to be performed by one congregation to and for another In this respect there is one Church of Protestants and whatsoeuer company holdeth not the foundation is no true Church nor to be counted a member of the Protestants Church Secondly I would know why you require that our Church should be perfectly one since you mentioned no such matter in setting downe expounding the first propertie of the Church If you answer that to be one and to be perfectly one is all one I pray you remember that this terme perfectly should either haue bin put in before or bin left out now Otherwise seeing you neuer tell vs that it is all one whether a Church be one or perfectly one why shold we not make our aduantage of your words and presume that our Church is held by you to be one though it want somwhat of I know not what perfectiō imagined by you which yet you forget when you come to shew that your church is one Thirdly how doth this strange speech vniforme in dogmaticall points of faith agree with that plainnesse which you professe for instructing of the simple But in good earnest what meane you by dogmaticall points It had bin very fit you should haue vsed other termes or atleast haue expounded these for the vnderstāding of the ignorant But this dark speech makes more for you because it may perhaps affoord you some starting hole if you be hard driuen Yet a man may gesse at your meaning because when you come to proue that the Church of Rome is one you seeme to interprete dogmaticall points to be matters of faith defined by the Church If we take it in this sense I maruel how you can charge our Churches with variablenesse in this respect What one point was euer defined by the generall consent of our Churches which hath bin since altered by like consent If you can shew none as I may well presume you cannot till you do then are our Churches in dogmatical points of faith as perfectly one as yours so much bragged of Now to your argument which is thus to be concluded That Church which is variable according to the varietie of times and persons c. the learned men whereof are at iarre among themselues in matters of faith c. and haue no means to end their controuersies is not one But such is the Protestants Church Therefore the Protestants Church is not one I denie your maior varietie of opinions differences of learned men without meanes to end their controuersies do not proue any Church not to be one vnlesse the matters about which they differ be of the foundation so that the ignorance of them or error in them be in it selfe damnable To make my answer plaine I wil handle as shortly as I can the seuerall points of your proposition The Apostles disciples and other beleeuers in our Sauiours time were doubtlesse the true Church and so alwayes continued in generall though some of them haply fell away being the true Church they were also one by your owne confession yet did they not always hold the same dogmaticall points of faith but varied in matters of very great moment For a time yea all the time of our Sauiours Christs life till his ascension they beleeued that his kingdome was not onely spiritual but also of this world They were ignorant of that high point concerning his resurrection without which there is no iustification Yea after the descending of the holy Ghost vpon them they held it vnlawfull to impart the Gospell to the Gentiles Put case now that some of those who followed our Sauiour had continued in these opinions and that you had bin to giue sentence whether they their companie had bin the true church or the Apostles and people that claue to them
deuise of a Poet then a discourse of an historie writer then that they will condemne your whole congregation of more then Turkish or any other heathenish barbarousnesse And do you with a shamelesse brazen forehead come vpon the stage to brag of holinesse Despise not so much the long suffering of God as to make a shew of religion after so many abhominable treasons and murders arising directly from the principles of your profession and agreeing exactly with the ordinarie plots and courses of your holy Father who in the raigne of our late gracious Soueraigne practised diuers treasons by his wicked instruments For proofe of that I say let them which vnderstand Italian reade the report of his Secretarie who propounds diuers of them to the commendation of his maisters zeale for labouring to reduce to the Church them that were fallen from the obedience thereunto But the memorie and in a manner the feeling of that horrible treason Nouemb 5. 1605. is yet so fresh and greene that he deserues not to be held either for a Christian a true hearted Englishman or a reasonable man that lookes for fruites of holinesse from trees planted in the Popes orchard Alas this proofe might well haue bene spared For there is no doubt but your Church of Rome hath store of wicked men and that you bring out of the Canticles neither belongs to your Church nor concernes the vngodly The Church spoken of in that excellent song is the spouse of Christ one flesh with his holy maiestie the companie of the elect called to true faith in the Son of God Among these there is not one prophane Esau or bloudie Cain such as diuers of your Popes haue bene not onely your ordinarie Papists But this blacknesse and beautie how contrary soeuer they seeme as Bernard truly saith belong to one and the same person Wilt thou haue mee shew thee a soule saith he that is both blacke and beautifull His epistles say they are of some worth but his bodily presence is weake and his speech contemptible The blacknesse is outward in mens sight the beautie in ward seene of God Therefore he addeth a litle after that A true Christian soule is blacke in the iudgement of the world but faire in the sight of God and of his Angels The spouse saith Bernard in another place is blacke but beautifull The Apostles are men full of sorrow yet alwayes reioycing Christ himselfe if you looke vpon him with such eyes as the Iewes did had neither forme nor beautie Other refer this to the estate of men before and after their calling before they are blacke afterward faire Other for allegories affoord varietie of interpretation apply it to the Church mixt of Iewes and Gentiles which is blacke because of the Gentiles who before knew not God Psellus maketh the blacknesse to arise from our estate in Adam the beautie from our righteousnesse in Christ Many vnderstand by blacknesse the outward affliction of the Church None that I haue seene but Lyra expound it of the wicked and yet he also rather liketh of that other interpretation which maketh this blacknesse to be according to the conceipt of the world But I will not greatly striue about the true sense which is so doubtfull onely I take that exposition which you bring to be the worst because it cannot agree to the true Church of Christ the companie of the elect called among whom there are none blacke that is wholy wicked though all be blacke in regard of their nature and faire in their head Christ You haue laboured to shew that the Protestants Church is not holy because it hath no holy men in it From that point you posted ouer to proue your owne Church to be holy Here you returne againe to the disgracing of our Church as if your holinesse were so darke in it selfe that it needed ours to be layd vnder it for a foyle that it might shew the better But let vs examine your proofe in this comparison If that Church be holy some members whereof haue bene holy that vnholy no members whereof haue bene holy and some members of the Roman Church haue bene holy none of the Protestants Church then the Romane Church is holy the Protestants Church vnholy But that Church some members whereof haue bene holy is holy that vnholy no members whereof haue bene holy and some members of the Romane Church haue bene holy none of the Protestants Church Therefore the Romane Church is holy the Protestants Church vnholy Your Minor is false in both parts of it For the former if by holinesse you vnderstand true inward holinesse according to your former exposition no companie may be counted truely holy because some few among them are holy For true holinesse is a qualitie proper to them in whom it is and such as cannot be communicated to any multitude ioyntly considered nor affirmed of it vnlesse the greater part be truly holy If any man will presse me with the Apostles authoritie who calleth the Corinthians and all Christians in Achaia Saints I answer that the reason of his so calling them is not because some among them were truely holy but because they all made profession of true faith in Christ which is alwaies accompanied with sanctification According to this profession of theirs the Apostle charitably iudgeth of them and tearmes them Saints by calling as if he should say that they are Saints because they professe themselues called to holinesse of life This appeareth the rather because otherwhere to be Saints and to be faithfull is all one where faithfulnesse is ascribed to whole congregations professing the faith of the Gospell Therefore the holinesse of some few maketh not all the Church truely holy no more then Eliah and those seuen thousand reserued by God made the whole Church of Israell holy in the sight of God which was an idolatrous congregation and vnholy for all these holy men were in some respect outwardly members thereof But let vs grant that the holinesse of fome few may priuiledge all for this title of holinesse yet in the second place we may iustly except against the stretching of this priuiledge to all that euer shall be by succession of that companie Were it not ridiculous trow you for you Romanes that now are to claime the reputation of valour or the Iewes the opinion of holinesse because the estate of Rome and the Church of the Iewes had many valiant holy men some hundreds of yeares since How then can it be true that a Church is holy because it hath had I know not how long ago some holy men members of it The other part of your Minor I acknowledge to be true that no Church is holy which hath not some holy men members of it But I see not how this can stand with your doctrine that it is enough to make a man a true member of the holy Catholicke Apostolick Church that he
so many Bishops of their faction Vincentius acknowledgeth a succession continued though secretly from Simon Magus to Priscilian Let vs see ' now whether you bring any better reason for your selues then you haue done against vs They are euen much about one That Church which can shew a line all succession of her Bishops without interruption from the Apostle Peter to Cloment now liuing is Apostolicke But the Church of Rome can shew such a succession without interruption Therefore the Church of Rome is Apostolicke Tertullian thought it sufficient to proue the hereticks not to be Apostolicke that their doctrine agreed not with the Apostles And Ambrose truly affirmed that they haue not the inheritance of Peter which haue not the faith of Peter He saith Nazianzen that professeth the same doctrine of faith is partaker of the same throne But he that embraceth contrary doctrine must be thought an aduersary euen in the throne He may haue the name but the other hath the truth of succession Therefore Irenaeus saith plainly that those Bishops onely are to be obeyed who together with succession haue the truth But of this I spake before Chap. 15. Where there is no beginning what continuance or successiō can there be Is not the question whether Peter were euer at Rome or no full of doubt Are you able in any sort to resolue it by Scripture vnlesse perhaps we may say that he neuer came there because it is no where plainly set downe nor probably to be gathered from thēce that euer Saint Peter was at Rome But it is more vnlikely that euer he was Bishop of Rome I might go forward to aske you who was his successor Linus or Clement which is a point not agreed vpon by auncient writers Since that time you haue had 32. schismes in your Church sometimes two sometimes three Popes at once that your succession cannot be so cleare as you would make it To proue your minor you tell vs that the auncient Fathers did much esteeme succession from the Apostles and vsed it as an argument to confound the hereticks and to confirme themselues in the vnitie of the Catholicke Church Who denieth that succession is to be esteemed and that it hath some force to confute and confirme But what succession is it that is of such price force Personall succession alone without truth VVe heard ere while what Tertullian Irenaeus Nazianzen and Ambrose say concerning succession that without truth it deserueth no credit Yea some of your owne writers confesse that an argument from succession doth not hold affirmatiuely as if there were a true Church wheresoeuer there is succession VVherby doth Irenaeus confound heresies by shewing a personall succession of Bishops from the Apostles VVhat could that helpe the matter vnlesse he be also able to proue that the doctrine he maintaines hath come successiuely from the Apostles by them He speaks plaine enough We confound all errors by the doctrine of the Apostles and the faith preached to men by thē Let not the word tradition trouble any man Irenaeus for that expounds himselfe where he saith that the Apostles first preached the Gospell and afterward by the will of God deliuered it to vs in the Scriptures to be the pillar and foundation of our faith The continuance of this doctrine by succession is vsed by Irenaeus as a motiue to perswade men to the liking of that truth which had receiued so good acceptation and was warranted by so good authority as the teaching of the Apostles themselues In a word Irenaeus saith that heresies might then be refuted by shewing that they who had bene ordained Bb. by the Apostles and their successors continued in the doctrine receiued without any approbation of such hereticall fancies Austin you say was held in the Church as himselfe professeth by the succession of Priests from the verie seat of Peter And why should he not be held by that rather thē leaue the Church for the dreames of the Manichees VVe say as Austin did that such a succession is a better proof of the Church then their bare promise of truth especially since as the same Austin sheweth otherwhere they wold haue their word to be takē as you now would haue yours for sufficient proofe But Austin in the verie same place you alledge addeth withall that if they could shew that the truth was on their side he would preferre it before succession and whatsoeuer other reason that made him continue a member of the Church In this sense did those other ancient writers esteeme and vrge succession whose names you muster to small purpose but onely for shew of authoritie Concerning that speech of Athanasius be not so iniurious either to him or your selues as to presse his testimony to so leud a purpose Would you haue men thinke that he which refuted and confounded Arius and his complices by so many and so worthy proofes out of the holy Scriptures would condemne not onely other men but himselfe also for deriuing his faith in that point from the Scriptures But though you care not what become of all the Fathers so your Popery may flourish yet like a reasonable man consider what a terrible blow you giue your owne cause Is there no other marke of the Church but succession Then by Bellarmines iudgement there is none at all who allowes it not as a certaine light to shew vs the Church But what wants it of blasphemy to pronounce men to be hereticks for making the Scriptures the foundation of their faith to which purpose Irenaeus saith that they were left And I pray you answer me directly why it should not be as lawful for me to groūd my faith vpon the beginning of this succession in the Apostles as vpon the continuance of it in other men Yet might Athanasius well say concerning that point of our Sauiour Christs Godhead that he was to be counted an hereticke that should deriue the beginning of his faith from any other ground then the whole succession wherein the Apostles were comprehended and whose doctrine the Churches of Christ till that time in that matter had followed But how will you proue out of this place of Athanasius that this should be a mark to discerne hereticks by alwaies It was then an excellent and admirable argument in that point not of it owne nature but because the truth had successiuely bene held till those times How will you answer Bellarmine who affirmes confidently and truly that truth goes not alwaies with succession For if it did why should not succession be a certaine mark of a true Church But Bellarmine saith it is not You tell vs that otherwise the ordinance of Pastors made by our Sauiour Christ shall be frustrate of the effect intended by him What vnlesse there be truth wheresoeuer there is succession Then can it not come to passe that any Pastor hauing lawfull ordination can erre For if one
one speciall man from all other must be some one thing or moe which hee hath and others haue not As if hee were longer larger or fairer then the rest or if some others were as long and other some as faire yet none were long and faire both but onely he The second thing required in a good marke is that it be more apparent and easie to be knowen then the thing For example If I were to describe and make knowen a certaine man who were otherwise vnknowen I must not thinke it sufficient to giue the definition of his essence or to assigne the secret disposition of his heart liuer and other inward parts which are commonly harder to be knowen then the man himselfe But I must declare some apparent thing in his face hands or some outward part of his bodie or in his voice apparell behauiour or such like which agreeing onely to that man and being easie to be knowen may be a meanes to make vs know the man we seeke for A. W. He that professeth to set downe certaine markes whereby all men may easily know the true Church that is which Church indeed holdeth the true religion of Iesus Christ vndertaketh that which he will neuer be able to performe For it is a matter not easily to be discerned by naturall men no though we should admit those for sufficient markes of it which are falsely propounded by you to that purpose Bellarmine from whom you tooke this as in a manner all the rest of your Treatise assignes three properties of your markes those two that you name and a third that they must be inseparable from the true Church Now such plaine men as we are haue conceiued by the first and last properties that no marke is to be taken for a note of the true Church but that which cannot be common to it with any other Church But you hauing learned of Gregorie de Valentia or discerned your selfe that the foure marks you giue are not such if we consider them seuerally tell vs here afore hand that we must take them altogether or else we marre all So that whereas afterward you seeme to make a shew of teaching vs foure certaine markes to know the true Church by when all commeth to all we haue but one marke made of those foure botched vp together But let vs take a view of these two things that you require in euerie sufficient marke the former whereof is that it be proper to the thing of which it is a marke This you say is true but not sufficient For some marke may casually be proper to a thing at this time which an other time may neither be proper to it nor belōg to it at all Witnesse your long and faire man who may lose his legs and his beautie or be ouergrowen by some other and so can by no meanes be knowen for the longest and fairest Persecution was sometimes a marke whereby the true Church might be discerned for it was proper to it no men but Christians being killed or punished for religion Yet I thinke no man would giue this for a marke to know the true Church by Once your Cardinall Bellarmine is so farre from it that he maketh the outward prosperitie of the Church one of his fifteene notes whereby he would haue the true Church discerned Therefore euerie sufficient marke of the Church must be such as is alwaies to be had in the Church not now present an other time absent Generally to make a marke truly proper to a thing it is required first that it alwaies agree to the thing Secondly that it neuer agree to any other thing whatsoeuer This second property of a marke that it must be more apparent and easier to be knowen then the thing I acknowledge to be true so you tie not this alwaies to outward sense whereof you bring example For that greater apperancie to sense is there onely required where the thing we seeke for is to be iudged by sense but it is not requisite that in matters which we can not know by any outward token the marke whereby they are to be knowen should be outwardly more apparent it is sufficient if by search and discourse it may more easily be discerned A. D. §. 3. Wherefore when we will assigne some good markes by which all sorts of men may in some sort discerne which particular companie of men is the true Church we must haue speciall regard to assigne those things which in some matters may be apparent to all sorts of men sith all sorts of men had need to seeke out and according to their capacitie discerne which is the true Church we must also assigne those things which agree to no other companie but that which is the true Church to the intent that when a man shall see all those things which be assigned as marks to agree to any companie he may straightwaies conclude that companie to be the true Church as on the contrarie side if he perceiue either all or any one of them to be wanting in any company he may be sure that that companie is not the true Church A. W. In the former part of this chapter you told vs that the way to discerne which is the true Church was to set downe which be the certaine markes by which all men may easily know the Church Here in the conclusion you mince the matter I know not how that All sorts of men may in some sort discerne and in some matters may be apparent to all sorts of men If it be enough to discerne in some sort that is to giue a blind gesse which is the true Church what should certaine marks need or why may not some common signes serue the turne Neither will it fit your purpose that the notes be such as that all sorts of men may by them discerne the Church but they must be so apparent by your doctrine that euerie man of euerie sort may easily and as it were with playing be able to iudge which is the true Church Your last clause that the markes in some matters must be apparent to all sorts of men that I may freely professe my dulnesse passeth my vnderstanding What is the meaning of these words in some matters If they signifie no more but in some sort it had bene good you had spoken plaine and not vexed your Readers with a needlesse labour of gessing at your meaning Especially since for all your faire promise of I wote not what easinesse in discerning which is the true Church all men may see they must be driuen to bestow much time and paines in examining the markes you will set downe because they are such as do not singly euerie one by it selfe shew which is the true Church but must all be ioyned together to breede this knowledge A. D. CHAP. XIIII That those markes of the Church which Hereticke assigne be not good markes A. W. This is a verie generall title implying as a man would
gesse by the words that you meant to refute all marks that euer were set downe by any Heretickes But if we should take your meaning in that sense your discourse would not answer our expectation Besides if all markes assigned by heretickes be naught yours cannot possibly be good which are brought by the grand hereticks of the world the vowed vassals of the great Antichrist the Pope of Rome A. D. §. 1. Out of that which in the former chapter I briefely noted about the nature of a good marke we may easily gather that those markes which some heretickes assigne to wit the true doctrine of faith and the right vse of the Sacraments are no good markes by which all sorts of men may come to know which is the true Church but are meanes as Heretickes vse them to cast a mist ouer the whole matter when as they know that they can most easily conuert all the Sacraments and holy words of Scripture Ad imagines phantasmatum suorum vnto their owne imaginations and phantasticall opinions as out of Saint Austin we may gather that the manner of heretickes is especially when the authoritie of the Church which should correct those deprauations and false expositions is not first by other markes knowen and admitted A. W. You would seeme to haue an especiall gift of making things easie by your markes the Church may easily be discerned out of the former Chapter we may easily gather But I thinke it wil prooue to be so easily gathered that a weake man may easily make you lose your labour in gathering That place of Austin doth so fit you Papists as if he had spoken it of you by name For to go no farther then the matter in hand who euer wrested the Scriptures more to their phantasies then you Papists who are not ashamed nor afraid to apply the most gracious and comfortable promises of our Sauiour Christ to his mystical bodie the Church to an heape of prophane misbeleeuers so they make outward profession of the Gospel in obedience to the Pope of Rome It is enough by your doctrine to make a man a true member of the mysticall bodie of the Sonne of God if he professe as I before said though he haue no part of the life of Iesus Christ in him A. D. §. 2. The doctrine of faith therefore I say and the right vse of Sacraments be not good markes whereby men may discerne which is the true Church This I prooue First for that by the true doctrine of faith which they assigne for a marke of the Church either they meane true doctrine in some points onely or in all True doctrine in some points onely is no good marke because the heretickes teach the truth in some points This therefore being not proper to the Church but agreeing rather to heretickes can be no good marke of the true Church because it wanteth the first condition of a marke which is to be proper and agreeing onely to the thing whereof it is a marke True doctrine also in all points although it be proper if we ioyne to it the right vse of Sacraments with obedience to lawfull Pastors and agree onely to the true Church yet it is no good marke because it faileth in the second condition which is requred in a good marke that is to say it is not apparent or easie to be knowen of all those who should seeke out the true Church As I may easily prooue because to know which companie teacheth the truth in all points requireth first learning whereby one may vnderstand the tearmes and state of the question or controuersie besides iudgement to discusse and weigh prudently the worth and sufficiencie of the authorities and reasons of both parts that vpon this pondering of reasons he may prudently conclude which is the better part Moreouer one had need to haue a supernaturall light of Gods grace and assistance of his spirit whereby he may discerne and see those things which be aboue all naturall rules and reasons Ad haec quis idoneus Who can say that himselfe is sufficiently furnished with these helpes Who can be infallibly sure that he hath all these in such sort as is requisite for obtaining by his owne industrie true and infallible faith in all points Surely at least the vnlearned must needs confesse that in diuers mysteries they do not so much as vnderstand the tearmes state of the question much lesse are they able to examine sufficiētly the worth of euery reason neither are all such as can perswade themselues that they are singularly inlightened and immediately taught of Gods spirit neither if they did thus perswade themselues could they be vnfallibly sure that in this their perswasion they were not deceiued sith it is certaine that some of them that most strongly perswade themselues to be thus taught are in this their perswasion deceiued neither can the vnlearned sufficiently know the truth in euerie particular point by giuing credit to some one or other learned man or any companie of the learned vnlesse that company be first knowen to be of the Church and consequently to be guided in their teaching by the holy Ghost as I prooued before So that it is most hard or rather vnpossible for a man and especially for an vnlearned man in all points Liquidam à tot erroribus discernere veritatem to discerne the plaine truth from so many errours as S. Austin saith It is also most hard for a man of himselfe to iudge which vse of Sacraments is right if he be not first taught by the Church sub this is a principall point of the true doctrine of faith which is as I said verie hard or rather vnpossible to be perfectly knowen by a mans owne selfe But to know first which companie is the true Church and then by giuing credit to it to learne which is the true faith and which vse of Sacraments is right there are not so many things required nor any great difficultie as shall be declared For the Church is that direct way which Isaias speaketh of when he saith Haec erit vobis directa via ita vt stulti non errent per eam This shall be to you a direct way so that euen fooles to wit simple and vnlearned men may not erre in it A. W. These are the two onely marks whereby the true Church may be knowen or to speake more plainely whereby we may iudge of any companie of men professing Christian Religion whether they be a true Church of Christ or no. For the better vnderstanding whereof we must know that howsoeuer we ioyne the Sacraments with the word in this matter yet we do not thinke them to be absolutely of equall necessitie with it to the being of a true Church The true preaching of the word is so simply necessarie that whersoeuer it is it maketh the Church in which it is a true Church of Christ and whersoeuer it is not there is no true visible Church We denie not
and reason we must beleeue the teaching of it in euery point Now it is most certaine that the spirit of the true visible Church is of God as out of holy Scripture hath bene most euidently prooued And therefore our onely care should be to seeke out those markes by which all men may know which particular companie of men is the true Church of Christ whose doctrine we neither need nor lawfully may examine and trie in doubtfull manner but must obediently and vndoubtfully in all points beleeue as the onely assured and infallible truth A. W. For the better strengthening of your minor you assay to make and answer an argument which our Diuines vse to alledge against it and this it is They that are willed in Scripture not to beleeue euery spirit but to trie the spirits whether they be of God or no may iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no. But euery Christian is willed in Scripture not to beleeue euerie spirit but to trie the spirits whether they be of God or no. Therefore euery Christian may iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no. The Assumption of this Syllogisme we proue by that place of Iohn Dearly beloued beleeue not euery spirit but trie the spirits whether they are of God To this our proofe you answer two wayes First concerning the spirits to be tried then concerning them that are to make triall Of the former your answer is that this trying of spirits is onely meant of those spirits of which men may well doubt whether they be of God or no. First this answer cannot be warranted by the text which is generall Trie the spirits that is all spirits that come to preach vnto you if we apply it to the teachers rather then to the doctrine they deliuer And surely if the Apostle had meant as you expound him he would not haue said Trie the spirits but trie some of them Beleeue not euery spirit but trie those of which you may well doubt but he saith generally the spirits Secondly what may we imagine to be a cause of doubting If want of lawfull sending which is the great point you alwayes vrge either we must know the spirits we may doubt of to be vnlawfully sent and then by your doctrine we must vtterly reiect them without any farther triall or else the triall we are to make if we doubt is whether they be lawfully sent or no for till that appeare we may not heare them But our Apostle appointeth vs to make triall by their doctrine Thirdly the reason and end of this exhortation is that we might take heede of false Prophets and false Apostles which were crept into the Church Many false Prophets were stirred vp by the diuell faining that they had Apostolicall doctrine to deliuer Therefore saith Didymus the gift of discerning spirits is necessary Now these false apostles were not such as came without any calling for the diuell must needs haue knowne if he had bene then acquainted with your doctrine that it was not possible for him to preuaile by men not authorised by the Church but as the Apostle teacheth vs they were such as had gone frō amongst the true Christiās not by schisme in refusing communion with them so much as by heresie in departing from the truth of doctrine in maine points of religion Fourthly false teachers do so nearely resemble true and come many times with such shew of holinesse that a man cannot tell whom he should trust or suspect but as he findes his doctrine to be sutable or contrarie to the word of God Therefore Ferus a writer of your owne and one of no meane account vnderstandeth by spirit doctrine The Apostle warnes vs saith Ferus that we beleeue not euery spirit that is euery doctrine and perswasion To which purpose he alledgeth also that of Saint Paul Trie all things hold fast that which is good alledged by Thomas in the same matter To make this your answer the more likely you tell vs that when it is certaine that the spirit is of God we neither need nor ought doubtfully to examine or presumptuously to iudge of it as if we thought any such doubtfull or presumptuous course lawfull Yet in this case there is a difference to be obserued If we know the preacher to be sent of God in such sort as the Apostles were that he cannot erre then euery least doubt of that which he deliuereth is presumption and sinne But otherwise though it appeare to vs that he be authorised by God we may safely take liberty to examine whatsoeuer he teacheth without any presumption to iudge or needlesse doubting of that he deliuereth In a word if we heare such a man it is our dutie not to suspect his doctrine but where we haue some good apparence of Scripture for our suspicion In which case we are to search the word of God and to open our doubts to him that we may be satisfied If the matter be such as we cannot clearely prooue to be false by Scripture we are with all reuerence and humilitie to suspect our owne iudgement rather then his whom God hath appointed and authorised to be our teacher so farre must we be from presumption Your second exception is against them that are to trie the spirits who are not say you euerie simple or priuate man but the Pastors of the Church to whom the office of trying spirits doth appertaine as being put by God in his Church of purpose that we may not be carried away with euerie winde of doctrine That this exhortation belongeth to all Christians it may appeare by these reasons First we haue the like generall admonitions in other places of Scripture to all Christians not onely to Pastors and Doctors Beware of false Prophets saith our Sauiour to all men which come to you in sheeps cloathing Trie all things saith the Apostle and hold fast that which is good which latter place as before I noted is brought by Thomas of Aquin and Ferus to expound this text of Saint Iohn Secondly the whole Epistle is written to all in generall without any particular instruction or exhortation to this or that kinde of Christians as teachers learners masters seruants or such like Thirdly it is the course of the Apostles where they descend from generals to particulars to giue some speciall notice of that change by naming seuerally the estates to which they speake and not continuing onely the common titles of beloued or brethren as the Apostle in this place doth Fourthly himselfe professeth that his Epistle is written in generall to all men yea euen to young men and babes in Christ Neither doth he in this exhortation restraine his words to them that are teachers Fiftly if it be not lawfull for priuate men to trie the spirits then are they to receiue whatsoeuer is taught by any particular Doctor or Pastor and so be bound to beleeue meere