and prosecute vvere rashe and rude at the least But now if the person can in respect of other good things by the vvord of God vtmost extent of charity be deemed to haue any the least interest in the grace of the gospell to censure such a one as an idolator theefe murderer and the like is against both charitie and godlines The Apostle 2. Cor. 6. teacheth vs to iudge and speak otherwise vvhere he calls such of the Christian Corinthians as by occasion of friends corruptions of times were drawne to partake in the Idoll feasts and tables of deuils of vvhich they had also before been by him most seriouslie admonished 1. Cor. 8. 10. Righteousnes light Christ beleeuers and the Temple of God opposed to vnbeleeuers vnrighteousnes c. As it is one thing to haue sinne which if we say we haue not we deceaue our selues the trueth is not in vs and another thing to be sinners in the Scriptures phrase 1. Iohn 1. Psal. 1. 5. Iohn 9. 3. 29. so all that practise through ignorance or infirmitie some acts lesse discernable of Idolatrie are not Idolators but such in vvhom it raigneth in action or disposition Lastlie If all in the church of England and of Mr. Iakobs church be idolators as the Apostle there speaks then are they all excluded from the kingdome of God 1. Cor. 6. 9. 10. and are vnder the curse and condemnation of the law vvhich censure the most rigid this vvay haue disclaimed as rash and vnjust Secondlie Whether Mr. Iakobs congregation be a true church or no We haue so judged and the Elders of the church at Amstelredam and the body of the church with them as we conceaue and so do vve judge still hauing sent you vvith our letter a copie of certain papers in which that matter is handled Thirdly Whether Mr. Staresmore and his wife are receaued and retained in our churches by that couenant which they made with God in Mr. Iakobs church or whether they haue renounced it as false and made an other {reversed} Answere Their receauing heare was only by that couenant made with God and the church there continued and none otherwise the persons hauing testimonie and dismission from the church there and so were in the vertue of the same couenaut by vs commended and conueyed to that other church in Amstelredam Fourthly To your fourth demaund about your carriage towards your Teacher other brethren renouncing communion with you it is both vnseasonable now to answere and difficult for vs who are ignorant of such circumstances and maners of cariage by them as by which offences are much agreeuated or extennated Fifthly Whether their pretence of hauing the trueth be sufficient to make them the church and to warrant their aboue mentioned dealing {reversed}â—Š Answere Neither the pretence of hauing nor the hauing of the truth indeed makes the church in the sence in hand no more then the hauing some other perticuler commendable vertue by some makes them the church excluding them that want its As Reuelat. 2. and 3. The visible and ministeriall church is the whole body euery member thereof Not some parts Act. 20. 1. Cor. 14. 23. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. of which some of these members haue more comelines and some lesse The church is a state spirituall and politicall not personall error therefore or other sinne makes any cease to be a member therof And if the greater number be members still though inerrour the smaller cannot be the body Besides if some particuler sinne or errour make the greatest part not to be members then much more two or three perticulers Which therevpon the church might not censure for any errour or other sinne to vvit if they vvere not members Lastly this confirms that popish and presumptuous ground that the church cannot erre Sixtly Whether women haue voyces vvith men in the judgments of the churchs Answere The Apostle teacheth plainlie the contrarie 1. Cor. 14. 34. 1. Tim. 2. 14. and though he speak perticularlie of propheâ—ing and teaching yet layes he downe a more generall rule forbidding all such speaking as in vvhich authoritie is vsed that is vsurped ouer the man which is done speciallie in iudgements And if a woman may not so much as moue a question in the church for her instruction hov much lesse may she giue a voyce or vtter a reproofe for censure And this answere vve return at the length brethren to your letter and demands therewith our louing salutations in the Lord. In vvhom vvishing your peace and vvellfare we rest Your louing brethren Iohn Robinsz and church with him Leyden 5. April 1624. FINIS
refuse the fellovvship of churches in that vvhich is good for any vveaknes in them of one sort or other And this vve haue so plainlie and plentfullie commended vnto vs both by the Prophets yea by Christ himselfe in the Iewish church and Apostles and Apostolicall men in the first christian churchs in which many errours euils of all kindes vvere more then manifest and the same oft times both so farre spread and deeply rooted as the reforming of them vvas rather to be vvished then hoped for as that no place is left for doubting in that case by any vvho desire to follovve their holy steps in faith tovvards God and charitie tovvards men and effectuall desire of their ovvne edification The objections of the former sort follovv 1. OBIECTION There is danger of being seduced and misledd by the errours taught in the astemblies ANSWERE 1. We must not loose the benefite of many main trueths taught Matth 5. chap 23. for daunger of some few errours 2. Cor 11. 19. ◠Ioh. 4. 1. 3. Speciallie in lesser matters Let such read Parker of church policy lib. 1. c. 39 This vvere to feare the deuill more then to trust God 2. There vvere in the Ievvish church in Christs time and in divers of the Apostolicall churches aftervvards more greater errours taught then are in any or ail the churches of England of vvhich also there are not a fevv vvhich if their ministers did as fully and faithfully teach and practize all trueths as they keepe themselues carefully from errours might compare in this busines vvith any reformed church in Europe 3. This exception hath its vvayt against the hearing of Priests and Iesuites speciallie by the vveaker sort and lesseable to discerne of things that differ But not against many ministers of the church of England 2. OBIECTION He that in any thing pertakes with that church in vvhich sinnes knowne are suffred vnreformed pertakes in all the sinnes of that church as he that sweares by the Alter sweares by the offrings vpon it vvhich it sanctifies Matth. 23. 19. 20. ANSWERE I partake not in the sinnes of any how great or manifest soeuer the sinnes bee or hovv neer vnto me soeuer the persons bee except the same sinnes either be committed or remain vnreformed by my fault Othervvise Christ our Lord had been invvrapped in the guilt of a vvorld of sinnes in the Ievvish church vvith vvhich church he communicated in Gods ordinances liuing and dyeng a member therof If my brother sinne a scandelous sinne and I by just order make complaint thereof to the church I haue done my duty It appertaines to the church to excommunicate him if he repent not but not to me except Popelike I vvould make my selfe the church I am guitty of the euill in the common wealth familie for the redressing vvherof I do not my duty in my place vvhich if I do in the church as I can I am free from the sinnes done and suffred there vvhich sinnes and euils I can no more be said to suffer vvanting povver to reforme them then to suffer it to blovv or rain because I hinder it not But the proofe of the assertion from Matth. 13. is of admirable deuise Hovv doth the church sanctifie the sinne of the sinner as the Alter doth the offering of the offerer The Alter makes that to become actually an offering or holy gift vvhich before vvas not an offering actually but onely gold silver or other materiall So doth not the church make any mans sinne to become his sinne vvhich it vvas not before but onely suffers the sinne that vvas But to strain the strings of this imagined proportiō to make them meet and to suppose the church in a sence to be as the Alter yet this only follovves therevpon that as hee vvho partakes vvith the Alter in the vpholding of the offring partakes vvith the offring so he that partakes vvith the church in the vpholding of any euill hath his part in the euill also And this I graunt vvillingly but deny as a most vain imagination that euerie one that partakes vvith a church in things lavvfull joynes vvith it in vpholding the things vnlavvfull to be found in it Christ our Lord joyned vvith the Ievvish church in things lavvfull and yet vpheld nothing vnlavvfull in it 3. OBIECTION But this course of hearing vvill offend weak brethren not persuaded of the lawfullnes of it ANSWERE 1. It vvill offend more and many of them vveakere and that more greeuously if it be not performed Secondly It is an offence taken and not giuen seeing the thing is in it selfe good in its kinde commaunded by God and in that perticuler by men in authoritie and directlie tending to mine edification and not like vnto eating of flesh or drinking of vvine or the like things of indifferent nature and left to my free libertie to vse or not to vse And these are the principall objections vpon the former ground they vpon the latter follovv There is in the hands of manie a threatise published by a man of note containing certain reasons to proue it vnlawfull to heare or haue spirituall communion with the present ministerie of the church of England This hath been ansvvered but indeed sophisticallie and in passion Neither hath the ansvverer much regarded vvhat he said or vnsaid so he might gainsay his adversarie With that ansvvere vvas joyned an other directed to my selfe and the same doubled pretending to proue Publique communion vpon priuat but not pressing at all in the body of the discourse that consequence but proceeding vpō other grounds and in trueth consisting of a continued equivocation in the terms publique licence gouernment ministry and the like dravvne to another sence then either I intended them or then the matter in question vvill permit Whereas he that vvill refute another should religiously take hold to his aduersaries meaning and if in any perticuler it be not so plainly set dovvne should spell it as it vvere out of his vvords But it is no new thing euen for learned and godly men to take more then lavvfull libertie in dealing vvith them against vvhom they haue the aduantage of the times favouring them like the vvind on their backs But God for bidde I should follovv them heerin I vvill on the contrarie vse all plaines and simplicity as in the sight of God that so I may make the naked trueth appeare as it is to the christian readers eye vvhat in me lieth And for the treatice mentioned it must be obserued hovv both in the title and body of the booke the authour confounds as one hearing of and haueing spirituall communion vvith the ministery c. vvhich as it is true of such as stand in spirituall and politicall church-vnion vvith a church and the ministerie thereof vvho accordingly haue church communion in the publique acts and exercises of that church so is it not true of others vvhich are not members of not in ecclesiasticall vnion and combination
them 14. OBIECTION They that eat of the sacrifice partake of the Alter 1. Cor. 10. 18. so they that receaue the word from an vnlawfull Officer partake with his office ANSWERE I deny the consequence The office is not to the vvord as the Alter is to the sacrifice The Alter makes the thing to be offred actually to become a sacrifice vvhich it vvas not before saue only in destination as Christ plainly teacheth saying Math. 23. 19. The Alter sanctifieth the gift but so doth not the office make that to become the vvord of God vvhich vvas not so actually before This argument hath its speciall waight being applied to sacraments or proper institutions The church and ministerie vnder God make in a good sence the bread and vvine sacramentall in their vse vvhich before they vvere not And to the sacraments speciallie the supper of the Lord The Apostle in the place cited hath an eye shevving the proportion betvveene the eating of the sacrifices in Israell which in that vse became their sacraments the eating of the sacrifices of the Heathens which were their sacraments and the eating of the Lords supper as the sacrament of christians With these things joyn in the last place that sacrificies considered as proper institutions might not be offred or eaten Deut. 12. 5. 6. 7. but in the place chosen and sanctified by the Lord for that purpose No more may sacraments now be eaten but in the church vvheras the vvord may be preached to any as vvell out of the church as in it 15. OBIECTION The places called Temples churchs hauing been built for Idolatry should de demolished and therfore are not to be frequented specially being accounted and made holy places Deut. 12. 3. ANSWERE Iohn 4. 21 23. 24. 1. The difference of places vnder the lavv 1. Tim. 2. 6 vvhen all other places for the most solemne vvorshippe as opposed to that one place as holy vvere vnholy is now taken away so as no place novv is holy or vnholy as then 2. Suppose it be the Magistrates dutie to destroy them of which I now dispute not nor howfarre he should proceed therein yet I deny the consequence and that I may not vse that lavvfully vvhich he ought to destroy The Magistrate ought to haue destroyed such cities in Israell Deut. 13. 12. 13. 14. 14. as vvhose inhabitants had been corrupted vvith Idolatry Yet might the cities if spared by the Magistrats lavvfully be dvvelt in aftervvards Synagogues in them both be built and frequented for Gods morall worshippe Iericho should haue been Iosh. 6. 17. 36. an execration and heap for euer 2. King 2. 3. 5. yet being built again and standing vvas the seat of a school of the Prophets The murtherer ought to be put to death yet if he be spared and surviue his wife children and seruants lavvfully may and in conscience ought to conuerse vvith him according to the naturall and ciuill relations betvveene them and him 3. I knovv no lavv in force nor doctrine receaued in the church of England that ascribes any holines to the places And for errours and abuses personall they rest in the persons so erring I suppose some such holines be ascribed vnto them as to holy churches holy buildings consecrated places c. Yet I see no sufficient reason vvhy I may not vse lavvfully a naturall and ciuill place in them for any lawfull vvork ciuil or religious priuate or publique for there is one reason of all these If any think those places like the Idolathites he mistaketh therein The things offred to Idols eaten in the Idols temple and feast vvere in proportion 1. Cor. 10. as the bread vvine being blessed in the Lords supper as both the Apostle and reason of the thing manifests Whereas the place vvhich I vse though for a religious action to be performed in it vvhether in the temple or in mine ovvne house hath onely the consideration of a naturall and ciuill circumstance The temple as a temple vvhich yet I do not think is done in England by any either receaued doctrine or lavv may be made an Idoll by consecration and yet euery perticuler place in it not made vnlavvfull for all vses If any further object that in preaching hearing Gods Word therin vve haue a religious vse of it they erre not considering that though the vvork done be religious yet the place is no more religious therefore then the time in which I do it Time and place are naturall circumstances and vvithout vvhich no finite action can be performed and some time and place more comodious fitt then others for the doing of things of all kindes I haue no more religious vse of the place in vvhich I hear publiquely thē in which I pray priuately in my house or chamber 16. OBIECTION Seing vvhatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne vvhat vvord of God and so of faith is therefor this practice ANSWERE Euery scripture that either commands Mat. 7. 24. the hearing of Gods vvord Luk. 11. 28. promiseth a blessing to them that 1. Pet. 2. 5. hear and keep it Tit. 3. 1. or that commands me to edifie and built to my selfe Heb. 12. 14. or to obey the Magistrate or to followe after peace or to preuent offences 1. Cor. 10. 32. vvarrants and in cases enjoyns this practice supposing no sinne to be in the vvay of vvhich in ansvvering the former objections to vvhich I suppose all other of vvait or couller may be referred I hope I haue cleared it And for any vnsatisfied or other vvise minded I vvishe I knew their reasons either for their good by a sufficient answere to be giuen vnto them or for mine owne by admitting of them as there may appeare vvait in them In the meane vvhile let me intreat of the differentlie minded one vvay or other that they vvould exercise mutually that true christian charitie one tovvard another and compassion one of anothers infirmities which becoms all that vvill be in trueth and deed follovvers of Christ Iesus vvhich is most needfull speciallie in things of this kinde for the preseruing of the vnitie of the spirit in the bond of peace Which bond of peace whilest men are not carefull to keep inviolated by brotherly for bearance in matters of this nature they miserablie dissipate and scatter themselues and one another euen as the eares in a sheffe are scattered vvhen the bond breaketh But as few or no good things of any kinde are so vvell vsed by some but others as much abuse them so is it to be feared that there vvill not vvant vvho vvill change their lawfull libertie this vvay into lavvlesse licentiousnes and so take vp in steed of all other religious exercises a hearing course onely And those specially of them who disliking the present churchstate in England yet vvant due zeale and loue to that vvhich themselues approue Let me a litle turn my speach to such