renounce all the particular errors of the present Romish church at this day for such Protestants could not bee much before Luther The particular diseases must in nature bee presupposed before a particular remedy can bee applyed vnto them Reformation necessarily presupposeth a disorder and deformation Neither doe wee restraine the name Protestants to such only as in particular set themselues directly and professedly against some speciall error of Popery as of Transubstantiation Purgatory Indulgences c. for such professed opposing could not bee imagined before such errors were in beeing But as the Fathers before the Councell of Nice did not in words define 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or that the Son was of the same substance with the Father and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 onely that is of a like substance nor professedly wrote against the Heresie of Arius by name yet are they rightly esteemed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 indeed or maintainers of the right beliefe touching the consubstantiality of the Sonne to the Father because out of their Sentences and Writings this truth may be deduced howsoeuer it be not formally expressed in the tearme of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So all those are to bee esteemed Protestants who holding nothing against the protestant faith deliuer some doctrines and positions from which some error of Popery or other may bee cleerly refuted whether such error were then maintained by any in the Church of God or no. Of the tearme Visible A Church may be said to be visible two manner of waies either Visible to the whole world and that eminently and in some sort pompously as the Roman Empire kingdom of Naples or respublica Venetorum in which sense the Papists affirm that the true Church ought alwaies to bee visible but wee denie it Or visible to all the members of that Church either such as God hath already called or such as he will call in time who by searching and due inquirie may and shall finde out the true Church their mother In this question we vndertake not to prooue a Protestant Church visible in all Ages in the first acception but in the later onely wee maintaine a visible but not a conspicuous eminent and glorious face of a Church in all Ages consisting of an apparant Hierarchy as the Papists teach I shall not need to adde more distinctions for the explication of this first question I come therefore briefly to the particular assertions seruing for the confirmation and illustration of the generall and mayne conclusion touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church The first assertion The Church in the most strict and proper acception thereof is the whole company of Gods elect Thus S. Paul in the Epistle to the Hebrewes describeth her The generall assembly and Church of the first borne which are written in heauen And Saint Gregory vpon Ezechiel There is one Church of the elect both going before and following after And againe vpon the Canticles Christ according to the grace of his foreknowledge hath built a holy Church of Saints which shall eternally perseuer in grace And Saint Bernard This is the Church of the Elect. Of this Church Saint Austen speaketh most expresly He shall neuer be withdrawne from that Church which is predestinated and chosen before the foundations of the world yet poore Iohn Hus as H. C. a zealous Papist rightly obserueth was burnt by the decree of the Councell of Constance for saying no more in this point then Saint Paul and Saint Gregory said before him viz. Catholica Ecclesia est omnium praedestinatorum duntaxat The Catholique Church consists of all those that are predestinate and of them onely But the best is as our Humfrey speaketh pertinently Combustus est non confutatus Hussius Iohn Hus was indeed burned but hee was neuer confuted His doctrine is written with a poynt of a Diamond neuer to bee razed out for it is Gods truth The foundation of God standeth sure hauing this seale The Lord knoweth them that are his And so I fall into my second assertion The second assertion The Church in this acception as it consisteth of the elect onely is knowne to God onely and consequently is inuisible This the Apostle teacheth The Lord knoweth them that are his And the Spirit intimateth as much in these words I will giue him a white stone and in it a new name written which no man knoweth sauing hee that receiueth it For what man knoweth the things of a man saue the spirit of man which is in him The heart of man is deceitfull aboue all things who can knowe it I the Lord search the heart I try the reines This soueraigne priuiledge of Almighty God to sound the bottome of mans heart the faithfull acknowledge in their deuâ—utest prayers as Salomon Thou euen thou onely knowest the hearts of all the children of men And Ieremie Thou that triest the Righteous and seest the reines and the heart And the eleuen Apostles Thou Lord which knowest the harts of all men Now if God onely knowe the heart he onely knowes who beleeue in him and loue him in sincerity of heart Therefore let none saith Saint Cyprian arrogate that which the Father hath giuen to the Sonne onely to weet in the floore of the Church to take the fanne and seuer the chaffe from the wheat The elect are the first borne whose names are written in heauen Heb. 12. 23. Now what earthly man will take vpon him to reade that which is written in heauen Saint Prosper forbeares it defining that God is hee who defineth the certaine number of those who are predestinated to eternall life Whence we may rightly conclude that the Pope in canonizing Saints and entering them into the heauenly Hierusalem incurres into a praâ—unire by encroching on the prerogatiue of Almighty God who reserueth to himselfe alone the discerning of vessels of honour from vessels of dishonour that is the elect from the reprobate But our aduersaries obiect If wee restraine the Church to the elect and pronounce them inuisible we make a Platonicall Idea or an aerâ—all body or mathematicall abstract of the Church Heereunto we answer first out of Saint Prosper Certum apud Deum esse numerum electorum tam impium est negare quà am ipsi gratiae contraire It is as impious to deny that the number of the elect is certaine with God as to deny grace it selfe And will any dare to call that a fansie or an imaginary Idea which is most certaine in the knowledge of God Secondly we teach not that the Church in this notion is an Idea extra rem or singularia or a body houering in the aire or floting in the fansie we teach that it truly subsisteth partly in heauen in the triumphant and partly on earth in the militant part therof This militant part though in respect of the whol number inward
suggestions was then so I feare all future Meetings in this kinde will bee stopped by the same Engine The Informers whether they were Popishly or indifferently affected in points of Religion I knowe not sure I am they doo the diuel a great deal of wrong by incroaching vpon his office which is To bee Accusator fratrum As for mine owne part it grieues not mâ— to receiue a wound from them who in due respect to Religion and Calling should haue rather applied a salue But I may truely say in the words of Aria to her dearest Partus Vulnus quod cepi non dolet in quam Sed quòd tu caperes hoc mihi Linde dolet It grieues me that you should suffer any thing for your religious and pious intention to regain your kinsman to our Church and establish your friends in the Truth Yet let not this discourage you in your holy purposes for the good of God's Church Macte virtute As you haue raised Bertram so raise other witnesses of the Truth from the dust and heale those Authors who haue lost peeces of their tongues which the Indices Expurgatorij haue cut off for being too long-tongued against the Church of Rome And though peraduenture you receiue no better reward at least by some than affronts for acknowledgements and rebukes for thanks yet doubt not one day for a full recompence of your paines and charges Trust him for your Aurâ—ola whom you trust for your Crown take his word for the Interest vpon whom wee all rely for the Principal who as he fearfully threatneth that he wil be ashamed of them who deny him before men so he graciously promiseth to all those who confesse him before men that he will confesse them before his Father in Heauen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 DANIEL FEATLY Touching the Visibility of the CHVRCH The Questions propounded by the Iesuite were 1 WHether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible 2 Whether visible Protestants are to be named in all Ages c To the first question I answer This question as all other will be best explicated by Distinctions of the tearmes Conclusions or Assertions vpon the distinctions The tearms to be distinguished of are three The subiect A Church The denomination Protestant The attribute Visible Of the tearm Church The first distinction The Church may be considered Either in respect of election inward sanctification Or in respect of outward vocation and profession of the truth In this question wee consider the Church in the latter respect in which alone it is visible for although the elect as they are men and professe the true faith are visible yet men professing the true faith as they are elect and inwardly sanctified and regenerated in their minds are not visible The second distinction A Church professing the Christian faith may be taken either More largely for a company of Professors of the true faith whether they be vnited vnder one gouernment in one Countrey Kingdome or Empire or scattered through the whole world Or more strictly for a company of professors of the true faith hauing actuall communion one with the other vnited vnder one gouernment within certain limits secluded and seuered from other societies and congregations As for example The Reformed Church in France at this day is vnited within it selfe and seuered from the Popish Church and the members thereof among whom yet they liue and ciuilly conuerse In this question wee tie not our selues to prooue a Protestant Church in all Ages in the latter sense It sufficeth that we shew it in the former and prooue that there were alwaies those who maintained the doctrine which wee now teach whether they were vnited or seuered had actuall communion one with another or not kept publique assemblies by themselues apart from the Romane and other Churches or not For as Saint Austen sheweth against the Donatists The same Spirit of God is giuen to all Saints who are knit one to another in charity whether they know one another corporally or not Of the denomination Protestant Distinction the first Protestants may be considered Either according to their name taken from at legall act of protesting either against the Councell of Trent or against the errors and abuses of Poperie when they grewe to their ful measure were most vnsufferable about the time that Luther beganne to oppose the Church of Rome or a little after or from the Protestation of the Bohemians in the yeere of our Lord 1421. set downe by Coclaeus in his L. 5. histor of the Hussits Or according to their faith and doctrine positiuely comprised in confined to scripture and oppositely as it is repugnant to all errors in faith and manners against the holy Scriptures especially against the present errors of the Church of Rome In this question wee consider Protestants in the later sense not in the former The name we confesse of Protestants is not very antient as neither is the name of Papists much lesse of Iesuites but the Doctrine of the Protestants wee maintaine to be as antient as Christ and his Apostles and we may truly say with Ignatius the Martyr 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iesus Christ is my antiquity As the same piece of gold successiuely passeth thorow diuers stampes and inscriptions so the self-same faith of Protestants in substance hath passed thorow all Ages yet with diuers names as of Becherits Berengarians Petrobrusians Henricians Albingenses Waldenses Dulcinists Lolards Luiddamites Wickleuists Hussites Thaborits Lutherans Hugonots Gospellers and Reformers The faithfull as wee read in the Acts were first called Christians at Antioch yet were they indeed Christians euen from Adam after the promise was giuen that the seed of the woman should break the Serpents head So that although we should grant to Bellarmine that the name of Protestants was not heard of for 1500. yeeres after Christ yet would it not hence follow but that the Protestants faith might bee as antient as Christ and his Apostles yea in a true sense as Adam himselfe sith the Protestant faith is no other then the pure Primitiue Christian faith Distinction the second Protestants in faith and doctrine are of two sorts either Implicitely and vertually and such are all those who holding the Scripture for the sole and entire rule of faith condemn consequently all doctrines of faith against or besides the holy Scriptures especially if they deliuer such positions and doctrines from whence by necessary and infallible consequence some particular error or other of the Romish Church although not perhaps sprung vp in their time may bee refelled Or explicitly and actually and such are they who directly professedly opposed Romish errors as they crept in or not long after especially those who opposed the whole masse of Popish errors and superstitions after they grew to a ripe sore fit to bee lanced about the time of Luther In this question wee restraine not the name Protestants to those who
et fideli profana et perfidâ— facta est Ita quae Apostolis Ecclesiam docentibus erant inandita ea pòst à patribus caepere queri ambigi Quae priscis 〈◊〉 scrupulum mâ—hebaâ—â— ea probabilia visa sunt 〈◊〉 à receâ—ioribus Scholasticis et Canonistis habebanturâ—â—ra Quae illi opinati sunt et tennerunt â—odie 〈◊〉 defendunt pertinaciter et dissentientes 〈◊〉 First Heathenish and then Iewish rites and opinions stole in these were the seedes of ill examples and orders or customes these at the first beeing small were not obserued sometimes they were spied and checked Afterwards by degrees they more and more increased then were they confirmed and spred further till in the end the whole face of Religion was eaten out as it were with a Canker and the Church of Rome 〈◊〉 and faithfull spouse became a profane and disloyall strumpet So those things which in the Apostles time were vnheard of after beganne to bee questioned and doubted by the Fathers Those things which the anâ—ient Doctors made scruple of seemed probable to some and were held true by the later School-men Canonists Those things which they held but as opinions the Papists at this day defend obstinately and condemne all that dissent from them Iust as Velleius Paterculus reports of the Romane State that degenerating from the antient vertue and glory it fell maturè à rectis in vitia à vitijs in prana prâ—uis in praecipitia from good to bad from bad to worse from worse to worst of all so the Roman Church in tract of time fell from certain truths to doubtfull Tenets from doubtfull Tenets 〈◊〉 manifest errors from manifest errors at last to heresies where we now finde them and there leaue them because they are resolued there to stick The generall Conclusion The Protestant Church according to the distinctions and Assertions premised hath beene in all Ages in some degree visible Thus much of the first Question propounded by the Iesuite touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages The second Question touching the Catalogue of names follows Touching the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages The second Question WHether visible Protestants are to bee named in all Ages out of good Authors To this Question I answer as to the former by Distinctions Assertions The first Distinction Visible Protestants are either Such as subscribe to the harmony of Protestant Confessions in each point of faith and Theologicall Conclusion Or such as haue deliuered either implicitly or explicitly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 positiuely or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by way of opposition some point or points of Protestant Doctrine especially if it cannot be proued that they held any doctrine de fide repugnant to the Protestants faith or different from them in any point of moment or very materiall much lesse fundamentall In this Question neither is it reasonable neither indeed doth the Iesuite demand that wee should prooue visible Protestants in all Ages in the first sense but in the later onely His words are For auoiding of all mis-taking and consequently needlesse and fruitlesse Disputes M. Fisher in his Question requireth first that names of men in all Ages be set down whom Sir Humphrey Linde and his friends conceiue to haue been Protestants Secondly that those men whose names they set downe bee shewed out of good Authors to agree in houlding some points of faith in which Protestants differ from Roman Catholiques Thirdly that Sir Humphrey Linde or his friends will defend against M. Fisher that the same men held no other points of faith different one from another and from the present Protestant Doctrine The second Distinction The Names of Protestants are of two sorts Proper as Bertram Lollard Dulcinus Caluin Beza Iewell c. Appellatiue as Protestants Gospellers Reformers Albingenses Waldenses Lionists Piccards Turlepins and generally all such names as haue either been assumed by any society of Protestants to distinguish themselues from others or cast vpon them by way of reproach by their Aduersaries whose reproaches they and wee accounted their glory In this Question although the Iesuite seemeth to take Names in the first sense yet he cannot be so grossely ignorant as not to knowe that it is aboundantly sufficient for the proof of a visible Church euen à posteriori to proue out of good Authors the appellatiue Names of Protestants in all Ages No man doubteth that it is a sufficient Argument to prooue the Visibility of the true Church in Israel in Elias time to produce that sacred Record of seuen thousand that neuer bowed their knees to Baal albeit neither doth the Spirit of God there set down neither can any man liuing now tell what was the proper name of any one of them No Geographer will euer make question but that there are now many visible Churches of Christians in Africa and diuerse parts of Asia vnder the Turk and Tartar knowne by the names of Abyssens Maronits Cophti Armenians Georgians or the like and yet neither can the Geographers themselues peraduenture nor you nor I presently giue the proper name of any one of them For my part I know but one Greek Christian sometime Student in Oxford Metrophanes Critopulus The third Distinction These words Protestants are to be named may admit of a double construction Either that names ought to be produced and that we are bound to produce them to proue the Visibility of our Church as if without such producing the protestant cause shold any way suffer or receiue any prejudice Or that such names may bee produced and that there are such Records yet extant out of which wee are able to makes a Catalogue of Protestant professors In this question the Iesuite holdeth that the names of Protestants in the first sense are to bee produced that is ought to bee produced and must of necessitie to proue the visibility of our Church but hee denieth it in the second sense that is that such names can bee produced On the contrary my Tenets are that Visible Protestants are to bee named in the second sense that is are â—minable but not in the first sense Though wee need not make any such Catalogue yet ex superabundanti I refuse not to doe it our cause is so richly furnished that wee can do it though wee are not bound to do it for the reasons partly alledged in the conference partly confirmed and enlarged in the defence thereof The fourth Distnction Good Authors are of two sorts Of the first rank and such are Classicke Theological or Historical Authors against which neither Papists nor Protestants much except but both account them of great worth and credit Of the second ranke and such are those Authors who though they are not of any singular or eminent note yet they may bee tearmed good according to the ages in which they liued which afforded no better In this question I restrain not good Authors to those of the first rank only but admit also of those
therefore you doo well and wisely heer not to lay these blocks for your blinde children to stumble at which neither you nor all the Iesuits in Christendome are able to remoue The Protestant Relation Paragraph the fift concerning the parts of the Question D. Featly There are two Quaeres in your Question First Whether the Protestant Church were in all Ages visible and secondly Whether the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages can be shewed c. M. Fisher. There are not two Quaeres or parts in the Question it is but one Question D. White Where there are two Propositions with two distinct Vtrums there are two Questions c. M. Fisher. Conclude any thing syllogistically D. Featly D. Featly And is a Coniunction copulatiue and must adde somewhat to That that goes before It is all one as if you should expound the words of the Apostle Prouide honest things before God and men before God that is before men Master FISHER'S Answer My Question is meant to be but one entire Question And so to cut off all needlesse wrangling made by D. White and D. Featly about the Aduerb Vtrùm whether and the Copulatiue et and as if Grammar-scholars had been disputing rather than graue Diuines who were not to stand on rigour of Grammar especially in this case where the sense of the speaker is plaine and may well stand with Grammar Master Fisher said The question being mine it pertaineth to mee to tell the meaning and my meaning was onely to make is one question viz. Whether the Protestant Church were so visible as the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors Wherefore if you will dispute you must dispute in my sense and must conclude the affirmatiue viz. The Protestant Church was so visible as the Names of the professors in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors Doctor FEATLY'S Reply First the parts of your question are distinguished really for a Protestant Church may haue beene visible in many Ages and yet not the names of visible Protestants liuing in those Ages now to bee produced as your selfe confesseth in effect page 33. line 23. Wee doe not require that all visible mens names should bee vpon record nor all records produced Secondly they are distinguished formally in words whether the protestant Church c. And whether the Names c. Thirdly they are distinguished by points for in the middle of your question before the second part of it you your selfe put a colon thus Fourthly you distinguish them your selfe in your answer in the written copie which I haue for to the first part you answer in the margent It was not which answer was not nor can bee applied to the latter part Either the parts of your question are distinct in sense or out of question you propound them senslesly whether and whether two whethers meaning but one Admit the construction you giue of the first part viz. Whether a Protestant Church were visible in all Ages that is so visible as the Names of visible Protestants may bee shewed what construction then will you make of the latter clause whether the Names may be shewed Is not this iust like Battus his spell in the Latin Poet Subillis Montibus inquit erant et erant sub montibus illis Or the like of the French Car comâ— ' vn ' Aigle mountant an clair soleil Car c'estoite vn ' Aigle mountant an clair soleil It is as if I should propound such a question Whether Iesuites be so honest men that they will not equiuocate and whether they will not equiuocate Or whether the letters in a small print are so visible that they may bee read and whether they may bee read Or whether the parts of this question are so distinguished that they are not altogether confounded and whether they are not altogether confounded But you say I am bound to dispute in your sense What sense mean you The sense that is to be made of your words or the sense which you make by your mental reseruation It seemeth you are so vsed to your Iesuitical Cabala that you cannot in your disputing but smacke of it I am bound to dispute with you you say in your sense I grant you am I therfore to dispute with you in your non-sence But you say that it is for Grammar Scholars to argue about the Aduerb Vtrum and the copulatiue et and. Tell your great Clark Cardinall Bellarmine so who wier-drawes your Sacrifice of the Masse out of the Copulatiue et and And he was a Priest of the most high God c. and your Transubstantiation out of the Pronoune hoc Hoc est Corpus c. your Popes supremacie out of the Pronoune tibi Dico tibi Petre c. Doth not Saint Austen presse Grammaticall Arguments against Cresconius the Grammarian Nay doth not Saint Paul himselfe presse a Grammaticall argument Against the Iewes Non ex seminibus sed ex semine Not of seedes as of many but of thy seed as of one How many ancient and later Diuines whose bookes you are not worthy to carry after them haue substaÌ„tially proued the Trinity by a Grammatical Argument drawne froÌ„ the Plural Number Faciamus Let vs make man yea the Trinitie in vnity by an Argument founded vpon the construction of a Verbe Singular with a Nowne Plurall Elohim that is Dij creaâ—it It is no disparagement Master Fisher for the greatest Clarke to remember his Grammar But he who so farre forgets his Grammar as you doe deserueth to be turned back to the Grammar Schoole and to haue his Garmmar-Rules better imprinted into him with a Schoole-Masters Ferula or somewhat else Yea but Aquila non capit Muse aâ— you are a high flyer and therefore scorne to strike at a Flie Yet take heed of such Flies lest you bee choked with one of them as your Pope Adrian was Such dead Flies as you heere swallow are able to corrupt and spill a whole boxe of the sweetest Oyntment The Protestant Relation Paragraph the sixt touching the pretended necessitie of naming Protestants in all Ages Master Sweet What need you stand so much vpon this If there were visible men certainely they may be named name your visible Protestants and it sufficeth Name visible Protestants in all Ages D. Featly It seemes you are nominals rather then reals you stand so much vpon naming will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all Ages If neither you nor wee can name visible professors of our Religions in all Ages for ought I know the best way for vs is to be all naturall men D. Featly This is the right reason of a Naturall M. Sweet If there were visible Protestants in all Ages certainely they may bee named D. Featly That is a non sequitur for the reasons before named by me What say you to a people of Africa who if we may beleeue Pliny haue no names at all M. Boulton Yet they haue descriptions and
discouered the abomination and filthinesse of the Whore of Babylon and begin to hate her and make her desolate and wee doubt not but in time other Princes and States will ioyne with them and perfectly accomplish this Prophesie by stripping her naked and eating her flesh and burning her with fire Now to sharpen my weapons a little vpon M. Fisher's Whetstone Confingant tale quid Haeretici confingant tale quid Papistae Let the Papists feine some such like thing let them deuise if they can any Protestant Church or any other society or person in the world in which the marks of Antichrist aboue-described are so conspicuously to bee seen as in the Romish Synagogue and the Head thereof and then I will confesse I haue spilt all my paines in deciphering these characters but till they haue brought some man State Society or Church in the world in whom the former marks are more visible than they are at this day in the Romish Church and her Head I shall bee euer of the opinion of that learned Iudge and States-man who said pleasantly that If the Pope of Rome were not Antichrist he had very ill luck for if there should be a proclamation or warrant to send for a man described by such marks as Antichrist is in the Apocalypse without all question the Pursuiuant would attache and bring the Pope of Rome The Protestant Relation Paragraph the eightth touching the demonstration of the Visibility of the Church by the eternity and immutability of faith Doctor Featly That Church whose faith is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged is so visible as the catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church by M. Fisher is pretended to be But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Ergo the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be M. Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged so as the names can be shewed is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I grant it That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged yet so as the names cannot bee shewed in all Ages is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Romane Church ought to bee I deny it To the Minor I apply the like distinction and consequently to the conclusion in the same manner Doctor Featly What Answer you to the conclusion also This is a straine of new Logicke Master FISHER'S Answer This Argument as it is set downe is so far from being a demonstration whose propertie is To conuince the vnderstanding as it is not a probable or morall perswasion for I am verily perswaded that no wise man not alreadie possessed with Protestant opinions will or can bee so much as morally conuinced or in any sort probably perswaded by it that Protestants bee the true visible Church more then a man in case of doubt can be by the like Argument which a man may make to proue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in all the parish thus Those who are in heart true honest men are as well spoken of as any in all the parish But I and my brethren are in heart true honest men Ergo. As this proofe is not able to make any man not partially affected to beleeue these men to be well spoken of or to bee honest-men so neither can Doctor Featlies proofe make any wise man beleeue Protestants to bee the true visible Church or to haue the true faith Secondly if the terme That Church bee vnderstood onely of a particular Church as for example the Church of England it is so farre from a Logicall demonstration as it hath not in it any Logicall Forme according to any of the vsual moods Barbara Caelarent c. But if it bee vnderstood vniuersally of euerie Church that is or may bee then both Maior and Minor are false and so it cannot bee a demonstration whose propertie is To consist of most certainly true propositions The Maior in this latter sense is false for that there may be a Church or companie who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged as for example a Church of Angels who for want of visible profession are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be The Minor is false also for the Protestant Church hath not the true primitiue faith neither is that faith they haue vnchanged but so often changed and so much subiect to change as one may say as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants What they hould this yeere I doe in some sort know but what they will hould next yeere I doe not knowe Which is true in regard they haue no certaine and infallible rule sufficient to preserue them from change But if Doctor Featly shall say that hee neither meant the tearme That Church in either of the aforesaid senses but meant to signifie by it That one holy Catholique and Apostolique Church which the holy Scriptures doe shew both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith and also to bee perpetually visible then indeed the Maior is true but the Minor is most false and so the argument is farre from being a demonstration especially when it endeuoureth to proue magis notum per ignotius viz. the visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hard to be knowne especially by onely Scripture Of the sense whereof according to Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particular man can bee infallibly sure for if the whole Church or companie to whom Christ promised the Spirit of truth to teach them all truth may erre then much more may euerie particular man erre and consequently no particular man can bee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture Thirdly this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question for in asking which is the true visible Church or congregation of the true faithfull wee aske at least vertually which is the true faith in regard the true Church cannot be without this true faith yea therefore doe wee ask which is the true Church that of it being first knowne by other marks wee may learne what is the true faith in all points in which wee yet knowe not what is to bee held for true diuine faith Fourthly although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward faith alone without some outward profession by which it is made visible or sensible doth not sufficiently make a man to bee a member of the visible Church Let D. Featly looke back vpon his Argument and tell vs what Academicall learning taught him to call it A demonstration à priori Doctor FEATLY's Reply I know diuers learned men haue beene of the opinion that Aristotles Demonstrator doth dwell vnder the same roofe with Tullies Orator and Xenophons
half that you now oppose and suffer me to answer Prooue by Christ and his Apostles or by any of the Fathers for the first 600 yeeres these present Tenets of the Romane Church viz. 1. That all power of order and Iurisdiction in respect of the Churches is to be deriued from the Church of Rome 2. That no Scripture sense or translation thereof is authenticall vnlesse the same were receiued from the Church of Rome 3. That the Romane Church onely was and is the authenticall Custos of vnwritten traditions 4. That all generall Councels were called by the sole authority of the Pope and that hee might ratify and disannuall whatsoeuer pleased him in them 5. That the Pope onely had power to canonize Saints 6. That the Pope had or hath power to depose Princes Prooue all or any of these and we will neither carp nor cauill about names but answer directly without all delayes euasions or tergiuersations M. Fisher. When you Doctor White or Doctor Featly haue prooued your Church to bee visible in all Ages and named visible Protestants then I promise you to prooue the Visibility of the Catholique Romane Church but that is not done by you yet D. Featly It had bin done but for your delayes and tergiuersations Answer briefly and directly to my former argument and I will descend to my Induction and produce the names of such eminent persons as in all Ages haue maintained the substantiall points of faith in which wee differ from your Romane Church That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can bee saued is so visible that the names of the professors thereof in all Ages may bee shewed and prooued out of good Authors But the Protestant Church is that Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Therfore the Protestants Church is so visible that the names of the professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages c. The Maior is ex concessis What say you to the Minor M. Fisher. I distinguish the Minor D. Featly Vpon what tearme doe you distinguish M. Fisher. I distinguish of the proposition not of any tearme D. Featly Heere is againe another straine of new Logick to distinguish of a proposition and apply the distinction to no tearme howsoeuer I am glad to heare you distinguish and not simply to deny that the Protestant faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith Mark I beseech you you that are present that M. Fisher demurres vpon the proposition his conscience will not suffer him simply to deny that the Protestant faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith we simply and slatly and in down-right tearmes deny that your present Tridentine faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith M. Fisher. I answered you before that your Minor is false and impertinent D. Featly I have prooued already that it is pertinent what say you to the truth of it M. Fisher. This is to diuert from the question The question is not now Whether our faith or yours bee the Catholique Primitiue faith but the question now is of the effect to wit the Visibility of your Church which you ought to prooue out of good Authors D. Featly May not a man prooue the effect by the cause Is there no other meanes to proue the effect but by naming men and producing Authors for it M. Sweet An effect is posterius the question is about an effect therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori D. Featly What a reason is this May not an effect be proued by his cause Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect or à posteriori because an effect is posterius M. Sweet Leaue these Logick Disputes Bring the names of your Protestants that is it we expect D. Featly If I should relinquish my former argument to which yet you haue giuen no manner of answer you M. Fisher would report that I was non-plussed as you slandered D. White in a former conference who I tell you M. Fisher is able to teach vs both Whereto M. Fisher replied nothing To preuent all such mis-reports to the wrong of either it was mooued by the hearers that it should be written downe by the common Writer of the Conference that both the Disputants beeing willing to proceed D. Featly was desired by the company because it was late to produce the names of such Protestants as were extant before Luther in all Ages This beeing written and subscribed by them both D. Featly proceeded to his Induction D. Featly An induction is a forme of argument in which wee proceed from enumeration of particulars to conclude a generall after this manner It is so in this and this et sic de eaeteris and so in the rest Therefore it is so in all According to this forme of arguing thus I dispute The Protestant Church was so visible that the names of those who taught and beleeued the doctrine thereof may bee produced in the first hundred yeeres and second and third and fourth et sic de caeteris and so in the rest Therefore it was so in all Ages First I name those of the first Age and I begin with Him who is the beginning of all our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ blessed for euer at whose name all knees must bow both in heauen earth and vnder the earth at which words all the company on both sides expressed an holy reuerence After Christ I name the twelue Apostles and Saint Paul and because there were few Writers in the first Age at least whose vndoubted works haue comne to our hands I name onely Ignatius after the twelue Apostles and Saint Paul yet not denying but that many others may be named M. Fisher. These are enow for the first Age Christ the twelue Apostles Saint Paul and Ignatitius Heere at the name of Ignatius some of M. Fishers side seemed very glad and confident saying We are sure enough Saint Ignatius is on our side D. Featly I meane not the new Ignatius Loyola but Ignatius the Martyr betweene whom there is more difference in quality then distance in time M. Fisher. Name of all the Ages or else you do nothing D. Featly I cannot name all at once will you haue mee name men of so many Ages with one breath Will you haue mee eat my whole dinner at a bit Can I name twelue seuerally but I must name first one then two then three and so forward I name as I said before in the first Age for our Religion our blessed Lord and Sauiour the Founder of all Religion the twelue Apostles and after them Saint Paul and Ignatius the Martyr For the second Age I name Iustin Martyr Clemens Alexandrinus and Saint Irenaeus and I beginne first with Christ and his Apostles M. Fisher. You shall not beginne with Christ and his Apostles D. Featly You are not to make my Induction I will begin with Christ and his Apostles where I should
calling it bee inuisible yet in respect of the outward calling to and profession of sauing faith it is alwaies more or lesse visible The elect are visible men and exist in the visible congregations of Christians as the apple in the ey or a Diamond in a Ring or the soule in the body As Athens is called the Greece of Greece so may wee tearme them the Church of the Church for in respect of them principally are those glorious titles giuen and gracious promises made to the Church which are registred in holy Scripture The third assertion which trencheth neer vpon our question The Church in a larger notion comprehendeth all those who eternally professe the true worship of God in Christ. Thus Lactantius defineth the Church Catholica Ecclesia est quae verum Dei cultum retinet hic est fons veritatis hoc est domicilium fidei hoc Templum Dei quo si quis non intrarit vel a quo si quit exiuerit à spe vitae ac salutis aeternae alienus est c. That is the Catholique Church which retaines the true worship of God This is the Fountaine of truth this the House of faith this is the Temple of God he that shall not enter heerein or shall depart hence is farre from the hope of life and eternall saluation Of the Church in this acception our Sauiours words are to bee vnderstood If hee refuse to heare the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen or Publican And Saint Lukes Then pleased it the Apostles and Elders with the whole Church c. And Saint Paul 's Despiseyee the Church of God c And in his Epistle to the Ephesians Vnto him bee glory in the Church c. And to Timothy How shall hee take care of the Church of God The Church in this notion is in Scripture compared to a field wherein are tares with the wheat a floore wherein is chaffe with graine a net wherein are sweet fish and rotten an house in which are precious vessels and vile to the Ark in which were cleane and vncleane beasts To the Church taken in this sense Christ directeth vs Tell the Church And Saint Paul That thou maist knowe how thou oughtest to behaue thy self in the House of God which is the Church of the liuing God And Saint Cyprian Hee hath no right to the rewards of Christ who leaueth the Church of Christ hee is a stranger hee is a profane person for hee cannot haue God to his Father who hath not the Church for his Mother And Saint Augustine I will not account thee a Christian vnlesse I see thee in the Church The fourth assertion The Church in this notion as it extends to all that professe the true Religion and participate in the pledges of saluation was euer is and shall be in some degree visible to the end of the world That it hath euer beene hitherto visible all Histories accord and that it shall so continue to the worlds end our Sauiours words are our warrant Goe yee and teach all nations c. andle I am with you alwaies euen vnto the end of the world For the continuance of Gods Word the Prophet Esay is most peremptory This is my couenant with thee saith the Lord c. My words which I haue put into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed from hence-foorth for euer And Christs words are as direct for the Sacraments that they shall bee administred till his second comming As oft as yee eat of this Bread and drink of this Cup yee shew foorth the Lords death till hee come And lastly S. Paul 's words are as expresse for the Ministery He gaue some Apostles some Prophets c. till wee all come in the vnity of the faith c. It is true Antichrist shall make great hauocke of the Church and there shall be such a falling away that Christ at his second comming shall scarce finde faith on the earth false prophets and false Christs shall arise and seduce if it were possible the elect but that is not possible hell-gates shall neuer so farre preuaile against the Church Whatsoeuer becommeth of hypocrites and temporizers it is certaine that the elect shall remaine in it and retaine the 〈◊〉 faith and if they retaine it they will also pâ—ofessed it 〈◊〉 for with the heart man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse 〈◊〉 with the tongue confession is made vnto saluation Sainâ— Austen thus stoppeth the mouthes of the â—onatists What is that that thou sayest The Church 〈◊〉 already perished and gone out of all Nations 〈◊〉 therefore the Gospell is preached that it may bee in all Nations therefore euen vnto the end of the world 〈◊〉 Church shall bee in all Nations I may saue the labour of heaping more testimonies to confirme this point because M. Fisher in his reflection on the Conference spendeth many lines and much labour in fortifying it as a strong bulwark as hee imagineth against vs. I conclude therefore with Saint Ambrose Ecclesia 〈◊〉 potest effluere non potest The Church may bee euershadowed it cannot quite faile or bee 〈◊〉 The fift assertion The militant visible Church is not alwaies equally visible but sometimes it is more visible sometimes it is lesse It was more visible in the Prophet Dauid 's dayes when he sung In Iurie is God knowne his name is great in Israel then it was in the time that Hosea prophecies of Israel shall remain many daies without a King and without a sacrifice It was more visible in the daies Malachie foreshews of From the rising of the Sunne euen to the going downe there of my name shall be great among the Gentiles then in the daies Eliah complaineth of I euen I am left alone The Church was more visible in the daies of Salomon when she is compared to a Queene honourably attended then in the daies Saint Iohn foretelleth of when shee is compared to a Woman flying into the wildernesse Shee was more visible in the daies Esay fortelleth of Kings shall bee thy nursing Fathers and Queenes thy nursing mothers then in the daies of Antichrists tyrannie when Kings shall giue their Kingdome to the beast In regard of this mutable estate of the militant Church Micah giueth her this Motto Reioyce not ouer mee O my enemy though I fall I shall rise againe And Salomon likeneth her to the Moone My Loue is faire as the Moone To which ground Saint Austen alluding interpreteth Obscuram Lunam Ecclesiam the Moone in the Eclipse or darkned the Church in trouble and persecution And Saint Ambrose Ecclesia vt Luna defectus habet et orâ—us frequentes The Church as the Moone hath her often waxings and wainings And in his Epistle The Moone it selfe whereby in the
points is eclipsed Aquinas sheweth that the vnderstanding of a Ploughman is not conuinced by this demonstration but onely the vnderstanding of him who is sufficiently fore-instructed in the tearms and suppositions heerunto belonging Therefore as this demonstration conuinceth not the vnderstanding by the bare proposall of the Syllogisme but the assent hauing been before wrought to the premises it enforceth and compelleth a rectified vnderstanding to assent to the conclusion In like manner I grant that the bare proposall of my former Syllogisme will not presently conuince a man either vtterly ignorant or in error as I feare you are to assent to the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church But if as I enforced you to assent to the Maior so you would haue but staied and suffred mee to inforce the Minor will you nill you you should haue beene compelled to yeeld to the conclusion But say you in your worthy witty instance This Argument doth no more perswade a man that the Protestants are the true visible Church then a man in case of doubt can bee perswaded by the like Argument which a man may make to prooue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in the parish thus Those who are in heart honest men are as well spoken of as any in all the parish c. Good Sir let mee aduise you to obtaine a writ of remoue for the Windmill for the whirling about of the sailes wrought very much vpon your braine as you were a-printing this Answer in the Cell Had not you had a whimpsy in your head you would neuer haue set this your Paralogisme as a Parallel to my demonstration In my demonstration the Maior rightly vnderstood is vndoubtedly true and de fide as your selfe confesse page 23. The Scripture doth shew the holy Catholique and Apostolique Church both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith and also to bee perpeâ—tually visible But in your Syllogisme the Maior is apparantly false If honest men were alwaies wel spoken of how can the Apostles words stand Sine per famam siue per infamiam either by good report or by euill report c Nay how can the words of truth it selfe be verified Blessed are yee when men speake all manner of euill against you for my sake Againe perpetuity of faith is the adequate or selfe-sufficient cause of the perpetuall profession thereof but honesty in heart is not the cause of fame but honest and vertuous actions It is not the inward burning but the outward shining of our light before men which maketh men to see our good works and thereby glorifie God in vs for them Yet by this your very instance and Syllogisme wee haue the better and therfore this your Syllogisme may be fitly tearmed as you will haue it A demonstration but with this addition of Fishers folly To be an honest man in heart is both prius naturâ and morally eligibilius in nature before and more desireable then to be well spoken of Mallem de me dicas Vir bonus est ergo bonae famae quà mè contra By this very argument the Visibility of the Church is but secundarium quid and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a secundary proofe and a common accident to the truth of faith And as wee therefore enquire of fame that we may know a mans vertue so wee therefore enquire of the true Church as your selfe confesse Page 23. that by it wee may learne the true faith We seeke a guide that we may finde the way and not the way that wee may finde a guide If I can otherwise infallibly know a mans vertue without fame put case he liued in a Desart I will not then set it vpon the triall of fame but in case I should faile of other proofe for a probable Argument I would produce fame In like manner if wee had no other infallible proofe of the true faith then by the perpetuall Visibility of the professors thereof I would hold it as you doe a point of principall moment to enquire of the Visibility of professors but sith we haue another more easie direct and infallible meanes to prooue it viz. by comparing the doctrine with the Canonicall Scriptures you shall giue me leaue M. Fisher rather to follow this Method generally prescribed and vsed by the Antient Fathers as I haue shewed before Assertion 7. then the other Method prescribed by you Obiect 2. Secondly you charge my demonstration with falshood in both the premises The Maior you say is false for that there may bee a Church or company who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged as for example a Church of Angels c. An instance as wide from the mark as the heauen is distant from the earth Our question is of a visible Church of which all sorts of men may learne infallible faith necessary to saluation Are Angels visible Are all â—orts of men to learne infallible faith of a Church of Angels Doe you hold it for a good interpretation If thy brother offend thee tell the Church that is tell the Angels or a Church of Angels Although Christ bee the Head of Angels and they make a part of the triumphant Church in a large sense yet I neuer read of a Church of Angels Bellarmine saith in expresse tearmes Lib. 3. de Eccles. Milit. cap. 12. Ecclesia est Societas quaedaâ—m non Angelorum sed hominum The Church is a Society or company not of Angels but of men If I should haue brought such an Argument to proue the militant Church vpon earth of which we disputed to bee inuisible because the Angels are inuisible I should haue suspected my selfe to haue beene as wise as hee that adored for a Relique one of the feathers of the Angell Gabriels wings Erubuit salua res est you seeme your selfe to be ashamed of this Answer and therfore you insist not vpon it but passe to the Minor burdening it with falshood saying The Protestants faith is not vnchanged but so often changed and so much subiect to change as one may say as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants What they hold this yeere I doe in some sort know but what they will hold next yeere I doe not know I can requite you with a like Apophthegme The Popish faith is so subiect to change that wee may say of it as a learned person in France once said That if a man would finde the Popish Tenets he must looke into an Almanack for them At one time the murther of Kings is Catholique doctrine viz. in the time of the League against the King of Nauarre At another time they pull in that horne and then for a season such murder is disauowed That the Councell is aboue a Pope was Catholique Doctrine with you in Martin the fifts time it was not Catholique doctrine in Leo the tenths About the breaking vp of the Councell of Trent the edition of the vulgar by Sixtus Quintus was authenticall and not
to bee reiected vpon any pretence Not long after it was not authenticall For Clemens the eighth corrected it in many hundred places Now goe and vpbrayd vs with our late reuised translation but see withall that you dispence with the Pope that he may dispence with you One yeere the immaculate conception of the blessed Virgin is maintained in bookes allowed by your Church another yeere it is impugned Lastly in one yeere it is determined in bookes set out by authoritie among you that the oath of alleageance may lawfully bee taken by Roman Catholiques in the next yeere wee reade that hee is no good Catholique that will take that oath The title of vniuersall Bishop was held insolent arrogant profane Antichristian Luciferian in Saint Gregories time but now you hold it to be the holy title of Christs Vicar Yea but say you The Protestants haue no certaine and infallible rule sufficient to preserue them from change Belike then the Scripture is no certaine and infallible rule but vnwritten traditions are the Word of God is no sure ground the Popes Decree is The Apostle then hath much deceyued vs who saith Let God bee true and euerie man a lyer If euerie man a lyer euerie Pope too 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 homo not vir onely to exclude Pope Ioane from priuiledge of inerrability You adde to piece out your former argument that in my demonstration I proue magis notum perignotius viz. the visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hardly knowne especially by onely Scripture of the sense whereof according to the Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particular man can bee infallibly sure The edge of this argument hath beene turned alreadie in the Remonstrance whereunto I adde First that visibilitie is more knowne to sense then the truth of doctrine but not to the vnderstanding of a Christian. Secondly the visiblenesse of a particular present Church is the obiect of sense but not the perpetuall former and future visibility of any one Church much lesse of the vniuersall And therefore it is much easier out of plaine and euident Texts of Scripture together with the three Creeds knowne to the simplest among vs where the Liturgie is in a knowne Tongue to deduce the truth of doctrine necessarie to saluation then hee can produce a successiue Catalogue of visible professours out of good Authors in all Ages Yea but no man say you can hee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture because Protestants hold The whole Church may erre In thus arguing you bewray either ignorance or an ill conscience Ignorance if you knowe not that wee distinguish betweene the essentiall or formal Church and the Church representatiue of poynts necessarie to saluation and not necessarie of euident Texts of Scripture of obscure But if you knew these distinctions as indeed you cannot but knowe them hauing read D. Field and other Protestant Writers you dispute against your conscience Because in obscure and difficult Texts of Scripture the Church may erre will it therefore follow that no man can bee sure of the sense of plaine and euident Texts In which if wee may beleeue Saint Austin all those things are found which concerne faith and manners Will it follow because wee hold that your Church representatiue that is the Pope and his Consistorie or the Pope and his Councell may erre that therefore the essentiall and formal Church of Christ consisting of all the visible Christians in the world in propounding doctrine necessarie to saluation out of Scripture may erre The Church following her guide the Word of God is sure not to erre whether vniuersall or particular For which preseruation from errour we doubt not but that there is a farre higher degree of spiritual assistāce to the generall Councels then nationall yet in both it sometimes falleth out that as Austen obserueth Priora à posterioribus emendentur the former are corrected by the later Thirdly you beg an Argument from your selfe drawne from a beggerly fallacy called Petitio principij or begging your maine question You say that my former Syllogisme was a petitio principij and therefore no demonstration but I prooued it then and since confirmed it that it was a Demonstration and therefore no petitio principij Let the Reader heere obserue how your Answers and Obiections interfere and supplant one the other Master Sweet will haue my Argument to bee a transitio à genere in genus but you a petitio principij Againe elsewhere you call this Argument A digression from the question a diuersiue proofe and yet here you will haue it to bee identicall Wherefore as Xenophanes opposed a motion made by Eleates in behalfe of Leucothea to celebrate her funerals with teares and lamentations and withall to sacrifice to her as a Goddesse this motion sayth hee ouerthroweth it selfe If wee sacrifice to Leucothea as an immortall Goddesse we must not bewaile her death and if we bewaile her death as being a mortal woman wee must not sacrifice to her as to a Goddesse priuiledged from death In like manner whosoeuer readeth your said seuerall Answers may obiect against them If the Argument aboue-named was a petitio principij it could not be a transitio à genere in genus and if it were a transitio à genere in genus it could not be a petitio principij If it were a diuersiue proofe it could not bee identicall if it bee identicall as you here affirme it cannot be diuersiue for it implyes an apparant contradiction to say that a man in proouing idem per idem doth digredi ab eodem But you yeeld a reason why this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question For say you in asking which is the true visible Church or Congregation of the true faithfull wee aske at least vertually which is the true faith By the like reason you might proue euery Demonstration à priori to bee a petitio principij For in propounding any question touching the effect wee enquire vertually and implicitly of the cause And therefore Aristotle in lib. 2. Poster Analyt acutely prooueth omnem quaestionem esse quaestionem medij that euerie scientificall question is in effect a question of the medium or the cause By the like Argument you might prooue that all Arguments drawne à definitione ad definitum are petitiones principij because in propounding any question touching the definitum wee at least vertually inquire of the definition If the tearmes in my Syllogisme were but formally distinct the Syllogisme could bee no petitio principij how much lesse then can it bee termed petitio principij when as it is certaine they are distinct really as your selfe confesse in your fourth Argument to which now I addresse my selfe Fourthly you impeach my Demonstration by pushing againe at the Maior saying Although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward faith alone without
of Prague it appeares by those his words in Asser. articul 32. Iohannem Hus et Hieronymum viros catholicâ—s combusserunt haeretici ipsi Apostatae Antichristi discipuli they burnd Iohn Hus and Hierom both Catholique men they being themselues Heretiques and Apostataes and the disciples of Antichrist And in his first preface to some of the Epistles of Hus prefixed to the works of Hus In numero istorum operum sanctissimi Domini papae habetur et hoc quòd in Constantiensi Concilio optimum et pijssimum virum Iohannem Hus damnauit In the number of those workes of the holy Father the Pope this is one that in the Councell of Constance hee condemned Iohn Hus a man of singular worth and extraordinary piety And in the second preface Has Epistolas sancti Martyris Iohannis Hus c. These Epistles of the holy Martyr Iohn Hus And in his third Preface A fide dignis hominibus percepi Imperatorem Maximilianum de Iohanne Hus dicere solitum Hei hei secerunt bono illi viro iniuriam Et Erasmus Roter in primis libellis quos typis excusos adhuc mecum habeo manifestè scribit Iohannem Hus exustum quidem sed non conuictum esse Tale omni tempore bonorum virorum iudicium fuit quòd illata ei sit vis et iniuria Et paulò pòst porrò In confesso est attestantibus et aduersarijs quorum ipse nonnâ—llâ—s eosque magnos theologos audiui ante annos 30 fuisse 〈◊〉 excellenter doctum et eruditione atque doctrinâ antecellüisse omnibus Doctoribus in toto Conciliâ— Ego olim Erphordiae studij Theologiae tyro incidens in librum sermonum Iohannis Hus prae euriositate quadam incendebar desiderio cognoscendi quaenam dogmata haeresiarcha ille sparsisset cùm hic liber in publica Bibliothecâ ab incendio sernatuâ— esset â—itertâ— inter lâ—gendum obstupefactuâ— admiratione afficiebar propè incre dibili quam ob causam tandem exâ—â—â—â—s esset vir tantus in explicandâ et tractandâ scripturâ tam dexter et grauis c. I haue heard from men of credit that the Emperour Maximilian was wont to say of Iohn Hus Alas alas they did that good man wrong and Erasmus Roterodam in the first bookes which hee printed lying yet by me writeth that indeed Iohn Hus was burned but not conuicted This was the iudgement of learned men alwaies concerning Iohn Hus that great wrong and violence was offered vnto him For proofe whereof hee alleageth Doctor Staâ—pritius and Andrew Praule and in the end addeth moreouer It is a thing confessed euen by our Aduersaries themselues some of whom beeing great Diuines I heard 30 yeeres agoe that Iohn Hus was excellently learned and farre beyond all the Doctors in that Councell I my selfe when I was a young Student in Diuinity at Erford meeting with a booke of Sermons penn'd by Iohn Hus was inflamed with a desire of reading it thorow that I might know what were the heresies which this Arch-heretick broached This book was happily kept from burning lying hid among many other in the publique Library in the reading whereof I was amazed and could not sufficiently admire what the cause might be that so great a Clarke so expert and dexterous in expounding and handling Scripture should bee burned Thus you see how farre Luther was from detracting from any of his fore-runners to whom hee yeelded as ample a testimony for the Truth as they had yelded to the Truth And I desire the indifferent Reader to obserue how Iohn Hus his prophesie before his death was fulfilled in Luthers vindicating his doctrine and person Iohn Hus his words were which are yet to bee seene stamped in antient coyne currant among the Hussites Centum reuolutis annis c. After a hundred yeeres you shall answer God and mee and some affirme that hee added Iam Hus that is in the Bohemian Language Goose but there shall follow mee a Swan c. And indeed after a hundred yeeres that Swan appeared in the world which most sweetly beganne to record the pure notes of the Songs of Sion whose strong quill hath eternized Iohn Hus his innocencie of life and purity of Doctrine Master FISHER Wherefore the Lutheran Conradus Schlusenburg saith It is impudencie to say that many learned men in Germany and the like is of other countries before Luther did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell And another of them not onely saith in effect thus much but prooueth it by this Argument If there had beene right beleeuers that went before Luther in his office there had beene no need of a Lutheran reformation Another saith It is ridiculous to think that in the time before Luther any had the purity of doctrine and that Luther should receiue if from them and 〈◊〉 they from Luther considering saith hee it is manifest to the whole world that before Luthers time all Churches were ouer-whelmed with more then Câ—merian darknesse and that Luther was diuinely raised vp to discouer the same and to restore the light of true doctrine Doctor FEATLY'S Answer First I would haue you to know M. Fisher that I hold my self no way bound to giue an account of euery rayling or ouer-lashing Lutherans speech no more then you will vndertake to make good euery inuectiue of the secular Priests against the Iesuites such Writers of the petâ—y forme of little antiquity and lesse learning were not wont to be alledged in controuersies of moment in Diuinity But I perceiue by you M. Fisher that according to the Prouerb all is fish that commeth to your net If these three had ioyntly testified that for which you cite them yet their testimonies might soone bee blowne away by the conspiring breath of many Protestants of better rank then they Regius alledged by your owne Brerely testifyeth most expresly the contrary Dico fuisse ante Lutherum verae Religionis et qui cum Luthero per omnia consentires coetum Ecclesiasticum etsi à pontificijs non fuerit agnitus nec propter tyrannidem pontificium fortasse ostendi visibiliter potuerit I say that before Luther there was a companie professing the true Religion of the same beliefe with Luther although this company was not agnized by the Papists nor peraduenture could visibly be shewne or poynted at by reason of the Popish tyrannie Whitaker auowes Regius Our Church was then viz. in the Ages before Luther But it was not visible saith Bellarmine to weet in the Popish sense What then Will it follow that therefore it was not at all in the world By no meanes for it lay hid in the Desart Oâ—colampadius and Martin Bucers Letters to the Waldenses are extant in their works I might alledge the testimonies of Constance and Bullinger Vesembekius Viret Vigneaâ—s Caluin Beza Humfrey Fox Illyriâ—us and many other Protestants of higher rank then such sneakers as Schlusenburg or Myllius or Morgenst All the
all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darknes and Perkins that An vniuersall Apostasie ouerspred the whole face of the earth and Iewell that Luther Zuinglius were most excellent men sent from God to giue light to the whole world their meaning is not that there was no light in those times in Goshen or that there were no Abdiases with many other Prophets lying in secret or that there were not many thousands that neuer bowed the knee to the Romish Baal for they all affirme the contrary in sundry places of their writings But they take the word World as it is vsually taken both in sacred prophane Writers for the greater part of the world or at least that part that beareth the greatest sway and is in a manner onely in voage Their words sound according to the Tenor of those in S. Iohn The whole world is set on wickednesse and the like in S. Ierome Totus mundus ingemuit se factum Arrianum the whole world sighed that it became Arrian As Luther so Caluin also acknowledgeth that Christ hath alwaies had his floore on earth sometimes more sometimes lesse purged And further they deny not but that before the publick and generall purging of the floore of the visible Church from the chaffe of Romish superstitions in our daies there were many that in sundry corners of the earth seuered diuers heaps of wheat from the chaffe and clensed it from darnell tares Among whom were Fratres Pigardi a remainder of the Waldenses betweene whom and Caluin many kinde offices passed as their mutuall Letters testifie extant in Caluins works Thus one of the Preachers of the Waldenses writes to Caluin Reuerend in the Lord because aboue 30 yeeres agoe when you remained at Argentine there was an holy league of loue and entire friendship and familiarity betweene you and the brethren who are falsely termed Pigards or Waldenses our dearest Fathers in the Lord Wee who now hold the place of those our Fathers whom God hath called almost all of them out of this mortall life thought fit to renew that knowledge or rather band of Christian loue wherewith all the seruants of God especially the Ministers of the Gospell ought to be most strictly and firmely knit together To the former letter Caluin returnes this courteous answer Epist. 251. Wee render you more then ordinary thankes for sending the brethren vnto vs who may remaine as witnesses and pledges of your loue towards vs and brotherly coniunction which kind office of yours wee the more willingly embrace because it flowed from a sincere loue of true Religion Wee desire that you will be likewise perswaded of the like affection in vs towards you and the great desire we haue to cherish this holy vnity among vs. For being so farre remooued one from another and compassed round about with enemies who take vp the greater part of the world it is a great delight vnto vs to enioy yet this comfort of our dispersion c. Againe the same Caluin in his Epistles Epist. 179. to Stanist Carninsk thus writeth of the Waldenses I hope the best of your agreement with the Waldenses not onely because God alwaies vseth to blesse the holy vnity in which the members of Christ grow vp together but also because in these your rudiments and beginnings I conceiue that the skill and long experience of the Waldenses will bee an extraordinary help vnto you wherefore all of you must doe the vttermost of your endeuours that this holy agreement consent betweene you may more and more be established c. Martin Bucer whom you alleage in the next place held the like correspondence with the Waldenses as may be gathered from that Letter of his which hee wrote vnto them Blessed be the Lord God our louing Father who hath preserued you to this present time in so great knowledge of his truth and who hath now inspired you in the search thereof hauing made you capable and fit to doe it Behold now what the nature of true faith is which is that so soone as it knowes in part any spark of the diuine light it preserueth carefully the things that are giuen vnto it of God Saint Paul is an example to vs who in all his epistles shewes the great care that he hath had to procure the glory of God And doubtlesse if wee pray with a good heart that the name of God be sanctified and his Kingdome may come we shall prosecute nothing with such diligence as the establishment of the truth where it is not and the aduancement thereof where it is already planted One onely thing doth especially grieue mee that our imployments at this time are such about other affaires that wee haue no leasure to answer you at large as we desire c. By the contents of this Letter and many other passages in Bucers Works which for breuities sake I omit it appeares that Bucer in calling Luther the first Apostle of the reformed Doctrine did not thereby intend that Luther was the first that euer preached the Doctrine of the reformed Churches for hee could not bee ignorant that after Christ and his Apostles and the Fathers for 6 or 700 yeers Bertram Elfrick Berengarius and Petrus Brus and Henry of Tolous and Dulcinus and Arnoldus and Lollardus and Wicklef and Hus and Ierome of Prague and many other Starres fought in their courses against the Romish Sisera But Bucers meaning is that Luther was the first who in our Age and memory publikely and success-fully set on foot a generall Reformation of the Church in these Westerne parts when the corrupt matter of Popish errors and superstitions long in gathering grew now to a ripe coare Luther was the first who openly lanced it Luther formed no new Church but reformed the Church hee found and therefore cannot bee termed The first Apostle of Protestant Doctrine although in a tolerable sense hee may be stiled The first Apostle of the happie Reformation in our daies Luther burnisht and refined the gold of the Sanctuary obscured with rust he made not new gold In your allegation out of Beza by suppressing the Aduerb penè almost you shew your selfe non penè not almost sed penitùs altogether a falsificator Beza's words Epist. 5. are Huic tum demum locum esse dicimus cùm vel nulla vel penè nulla est ordinaria vocatio sicut nostris temporibus accidit in Papatu We say that then extraordinary calling takes place when there is either no or almost no ordinary vocation of Pastors as in our time fell out in the Papacie This almost you omit altogether For Beza's opinion touching extraordinary calling as I doe not heere oppugne so much lesse doe I vndertake to maintaine We can and haue prooued lawfull ordinary calling in our Church of England as you may see in M. Masons most accomplished Treatise of this Subject lately reuised by him before his death and translated into Latine at this instant