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sense_n	church_n	invisible_a	visible_a	2,874	5	9.2871	5	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85400	Innocency and truth triumphing together; or, The latter part of an answer to the back-part of a discourse, lately published by William Prynne Esquire, called, A full reply, &c. Beginning at the foot of p. 17. of the said discourse, with this title or superscription, Certain brief animadversions on Mr. John Goodwins Theomachia. Wherein the argumentative part of the said animadversions is examined; together with some few animadversions upon some former passages in the said reply. Licensed and printed according to order.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.	1645 (1645)	Wing G1176; Thomason E24_8; ESTC R22666	90,413	109

That experience manifests the contrary to what he here affirms viz. that the subordination or subjection of severall Trades Societies to the whole Corporation Parliament or supreame Magistrate doth not keep them all in peace and writie What contentiones quarrels emulations suits amongst them from day to day any such subordination or subjection notwithstanding 2. Whereas by way of opposition he addes that Independent Churches will be regulated obliged onely by their own peculiar edicts which must needs occasion infinite schismes and disorders We answer 1. We wish that by way of commendation and praise in many cases to Parliaments temporall Magistrates and Synods which is here cast upon Independent Churches by way of imputation and charge I mean regulation and obligement by their own peculiar edicts But 2. Whereas the charge is thus laid against these Churches that they will be regulated obliged onely by their own peculiar Edicts the truth is that they are every whit as willing to be regulated obliged by the Edicts of any other as by their own alwayes provided that they be conform to the Word and this conformitie sufficiently proved and made known unto them They put no difference at all between the mind of Christ presented unto them by others or discovered and found out by themselves Yea and that subordination and subjection which they all professe and own to the written word of God is a farre more effectuall and hopefull means to keep them all in peace and unitie then that subordination mentioned by Mr. Prynne is to keep all Trades and Societies in the same precious posture Onely in this one thing these poore Independent Churches desire Parliaments and Magistrates and Synods to be mercifull unto them that they cannot write any of them infallible nor yet subscribe unto any their injunctions or decisions in matters of Faith or which concern the worship and service of God without retaining the Scriptures for their Counsell and advising with them what to do therein To his third and last difference also we answer 1. That he saith very well in point of truth when he saith that Christians as Christians are all of one and the self same society and profession as those of one trade and calling are But this truth as yet is not at all conscious to his intention or purpose Therefore he addes therefore they should all have but one Church and Government as these trades have Nor doth this if granted make any whit more for the Presbyterian cause then for the Independent because it doth not follow Christians as Christians ought all to have one and the same Church and Government therefore this Church and Government ought to be Presbyterian Take a parallel Simeon and Levi ought to have been Brethren therefore they ought to have been Brethren in iniquitie Take another A●ania● and Sapphira being man and wife ought to have agreed together therefore they ought to have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord. But 2. If by his one Church he means one and the same Catholique mysticall and invisible Church We answer that Christians as Christians have all one and the same Church in this sense they are all members of this one Church But if he means one and the same ministeriall and visible Church we answer by demanding How can this thing be We have heard indeed of some Oecumenicall Councels but of Oecumenicall visible Churches wherein all Christians should be comprehended as members I beleeve there hath been Oecumenicall silence unto this day 3. Whereas he goeth about to set the comparison of his own making upright by stating it thus If some of one Fraternitie in London suppose Merchant-t tylors Sadlers c. should fall out among themselves and one would have one form of Government another another and thereupon divide themselves into severall conventicles and pety meetings in corners not at their common Hall and one chuse one Government or Master another another and so sever the Company and continue Independent this no doubt would prove an apparent schisme and seminary of infinite divisions to the distraction destruction of the whole Company and Fraternitie and then addes This is the true State of your Independencie We answer that the comparison thus stated holds no proportion or correspondence with the State of Independencie For 1. That number of Christians which pleads for Independencie so called is not the whole Socieitie of Christians nor indeed any confiderable part thereof in respect of number as that Fraternitie of Merchant-tayloes or Sadlers the comparison speaks of is therein supposed to be the whole Societie of such a Company Therefore to set Mr. Prynnes comparison upright and make it agree with the State of Independencie in this particular it must be stated thus Suppose two or three members of a numerous and vast companie consisting it may be of ten or twenty thousand persons should differ from the rest of the Societie in some things about their Government and hereupon should withdraw themselvs from that Society and seek incorporation elsewhere would such a dissent or withdrawing of so few from amongst so many any waies threaten the distraction much lesse the destruction of the whole Company 2. Suppose a considerable part of a Company should out of a conscientious dislike of the carriage of things in the Government of the body withdraw themselves and refuse subjection to this Government so ordered and administred though in probabilitie this act of theirs may occasion some distraction or disturbance in the rest of the body for a season yet supposing it done upon substantiall and due grounds it may be so farre bringing destruction to this body that very possibly it may occasion the Reformation and amendment of those things that were unjust in this Government and consequently destructive to the bodie and so become a means of the preservation of it from destruction And this is the true state of our Independencie 3. In case the Fraternity of Merchant-taylors in London should fall out amongst themselves and one would have one form of Government and another another and thereupon divide themselves c. What ever inconvenience should or might hereupon ensue to the Company yet still it was determined by equall and prudent Judges who or which partie gave the chief occasion of these distractions and rents there is no reason why any one partie should fall foule upon all the rest and give an extrajudiciall sentence for themselves For any thing that God hath yet determined to the contrary the Independent partie of Christians in the Kingdom may be as innocent yea more innocent of the breaches and distractions amongst us in point of Church Government them the Presbyterian They that call and plead for that Government which is held forth in the Scriptures calling and pleading for it in a regular meek and Christian manner are those that are innocent and those that call and plead for any other or indeed for any in a violent preposterous and unchristian manner light

time proceed from Kings Magistrates whether Heathen or Christian unto which we cannot submit with a good conscience and for conscience sake but are necessitated even for conscience sake to decline them Onely we question whether Kings Magistrates Heathen or Christian have any power from God to punish good and godly men for declining such commands of theirs for conscience sake which they cannot for conscience sake submit unto 6. For those Princes and Magistrates who were long sence predicted to become nursing Fathers to the Church under the Gospel we wish them all Christian care tendernesse and compassion according to the nature and tenor of this so honourable a service and imployment so long sence by prophecie from God assign'd and recommended unto them But whether it be proper for those that desire to be look'd upon as nursing Fathers of the Church to sacrifice the peace and comfort of one part of the children of the Church upon the service of the wills or humors of another part of them I leave to nursing mothers who have twins of their womb hanging upon their breasts to judge and determine 7. And lastly for the good and wholesome Laws enacted by Cyrus Artaxerxes Darius c. for the worship of God c. We gave I trust a good and wholesome answer in the former part of this discourse published some weeks since Wee freely grant a power yea and more then a power a necessitie by way of dutie in Kings Magistrates to further the honour and service of the true God and his people in the worship of him It is onely a power of discouraging his people of interrupting and hindring their peace and comfort in the worship and service of the true God which we conceive incompetible unto Magistracie as any gift or donation setled upon it by God His third Argument or ground of jealousie against the way of his great Contestation is that it appears to be a way that will breed infinite confusions disorders by confounding the bounds of Parishes c. We answer 1. That Physicians seldome complain of sickly times nor Millars of those that bring griest to their mills The old saying was De morbo gaudet medicus It is strange to me that Mr. Prynne should thus prevaricate with his profession But it may be this argument is figurative and cat-antiphrasticall And so by confusions disorders c. he means peace unitie and concord amongst men whereby confusions disorders and consequently suits at Law will be prevented and cut off And the truth is that such peace unitie and concord amongst men whereby such unchristian mischiefes and miseries as these may in ordinary way of providence be prevented is the genuine and naturall product of this way and a fruit that is daily gathered from it by many 2. Whereas he chargeth this way with confounding the bounds of Parishes and in his margent cites p. 38. to 40. of my two Sermons for the justification of this charge the truth is that both charge and justification may go together and serve in the Forlorne hope having neither reason nor truth to second either For 1. the way he speaks of intermeddles not with offers no violence to the bounds of Parishes onely it thinks it equall that the bounds of Parishes should not offer violence or be houses of bondage unto the consciences of the Saints nor be as barres of iron against them in the way of their comfort and spirituall edification 2. Whereas I am sub-pena'd for a witnesse against this way touching the crime objected I meane of trespassing upon the bounds of Parishes May answer is that the printed copie of those Sermons of mine which I have hath ne gry quidem either in pag. 38 39 or 40. of any such matter nor hath it any where else any page passage sentence line word syllable letter point or tittle amounting to the import of such a charge 3. Whereas his pen spits this black reproach in the face of Independencie that it is a Government inconsistent with Royaltie and the civill Government My answer is that look in what degree this accusation and charge would be weighty and sore in case it could be prov'd in the same degree it is light and contemptible through a deficiencie of all and all manner of proofe or colour of proofe whatsoever The Roman Empire lost nothing of her beautie strength or interest by the Churches of Christ practising this Government in severall places within the bounds and territories of it If it sustained losse in any of these by occasion of this Government it was not because of their toleration of but their opposition to it 4. Nor is this charge that it giveth way to every sect to choose Ministers erect Churches of their owne without controule of any better commendation in point of truth then the former For it giveth way to no sect whatsoever without controule it reproves oppugns censures and condemns sects and sectaries of all sorts so far is it from granting allowance to them to choose Ministers and erect Churches without controule Indeed it knows no authoritie or commission which it hath from God to countenance the controulement of the civill sword against such persons who in the simplicitie not convicted obstinacy of their hearts are misled in matters of Religion it trembles to make misprisions in things of that difficult high and rare attainment as the acknowledgement of supernaturall truth is in matters of Religion and the things of God to be matter either of confiscation of goods imprisonment banishment death unto men though it denies not a power of restraint from opposing the received faith with publick disturbance and offence 5. Whereas in Answer to somewhat argued by me to make the innocency of Independencie touching matter of Divisions as cleare as the noone day he repones thus That those who in point of conscience cannot communicate or agree together in one Church will never questiolesse accord well together in one familie bed Parish Kingdome as experience manifests I answer 1. That experience manifests the quite contrary How many Ministers of the Presbyterian judgement are there in the Kingdome yea in and about the Citie that hold communion in all deare and Christian respects and terms of love and friendship with many called Independent and these againe with them The difference in judgement between them in point of Church-Government in some rather increasing then diminishing or dissolving their familiaritie and acquaintance How oft doth Mr. Edwards himself in his Antapologie acknowledge his Apologists to be dearly and deeply interessed in the love and care of many of his judgement Yea he commends his own love and affections towards them once and twice and the third time also How many families are there in and about the Citie wherein the respective members injoy themselves together with much Christian sweetnesse and peace notwithstanding relations to severall Pastors Churches among them I had it from a person worthy credit in a greater matter

to be printed in a differing character as if they were mine and onely transcribed by him citing in his margin pag. 25. 26. as their quarter in my discourse the truth is that this is no fair play for there is no such line or juncto of wordseither in either of those pages or elsewhere in those Sermons It never came into my thoughts to think nor surely ever issued out of my pen that every private man hath or ought to have a power to constitute his own Minister And besides he puts a more quaint and subtlle distinction upon me then I am capable of I cannot conceive that any private man hath a power to elect or constitute his Minister except he ought to have it That power which God hath been pleased to conferre upon any man he both ought to have and hath though the exercise and benefit of that power may be injuriously denied unto him or withheld from him 2. Whereas he further presumes that I will grant that private men have power likewise to set up Independent Congregations which have Authoritie to prescribe such Covenants Laws and rules of Government Discipline worship as themselves think most agreeable to the Word and hereupon demands if then they may derive such an Ecclesiasticall Authority to Independent Ministers and Churches why not as well to Parliaments and Synods likewise by the self-same reason I answer 1. That he is mistaken in his good opinion of my bountie For I do not grant either first that all or every sort of private men have power to set up any Independent Congregation Or 2. That any private men have power to set up any such congregation consisting of other men then themselves but onely to agree together amongst themselves to become such a congregation Or 3. That any Congregation whatsoever hath any Authoritie to practise much lesse to prescribe either such Covenants Laws Rules of Government or worship as themselves onely think most agreeable to the Word of God but onely to practise those amongst themselves which they know to be agreeable to the Word of God without prescribing either these or any other unto others God gives no person or Congregation any Authoritie or power so much as to practise themselves what they simple think most agreeable to his Word but onely that which REALLY IS agreeable unto his Word much lesse doth he give either the one or the other any Authority to prescribe their thinkings in this kind unto others But 2. Whereas he demands Why private men may not derive an Ecclesiasticall Authority unto Parliaments and Synods as well as unto Independent Ministers and Churches the account is readie 1. No private men whatsoever can in any sense neither in whole nor in part derive any Ecclesiasticall Authority either unto any Minister but onely him unto whom they commit the charge of their ●ouls nor unto any Congregation but onely that whereof they are members themselves Therefore it no wayes follows Private men have power to derive Ecclesiasticall Authoritie to those Congregations whereof they are the respective members themselves therefore they have the like power to derive the same Authority to Parliaments and Synods whereof they are no members Take a parallel The Assistants in the Company of Chirurgians have an interest in the Government and carriage of the affairs of their own Companie therefore they have the same interest in the Government of the affairs of the Company of Merchant-taylors 2. A person qualified for the office and work of the Ministery according to the word of God is a subject capable of Ecclesiasticall Authority and may accordingly by persons Authorized by the word of God thereunto be lawfully invested with that power But we have no rule or direction from the word of God either 1. to judge whether or when either Parliaments or Synods are subjects capable of Ecclesiasticall Authoritie nor 2. is there any rule or warrant to be found there for the Authorizing of any sort or rank of men actually to conferre such an Authority or power in case they should be found subjects capable of it Therefore Mr. Prynnes arguing in this place is of no better form or strength then this Private men may do that which Gods Word authorizeth them to do therefore they may do that also which Gods Word doth not authorize them unto But 3. And lastly The main foundation and ground-work upon which he builds the fabrique of his reasoning here is an utter mistake For I neither grant nor think that private men either when by consent they first congregate themselves and chuse a Minister or Pastor over them much lesse when they joyn themselves to a Congregation already gathered and form'd do derive any Ecclesiasticall Authority unto it but that a company of persons fearing God and consenting together to become a Church-body or holy Congregation have an Authoritie which you may call Ecclesiastique if you please but I shall not commend the terme unto you in this case nor would I willingly call it an authoritie but rather a right or priviledge derived unto them not by themselves but from God First to chuse unto themselves a Pastor and other officers as opportunity shall be such as are recommended in the Scriptures as meet for such places and then by and together with these to administer and order their Church-affaires in all the concernments thereof according to the word of God in the name and authoritie of our Lord Jesus Christ whose properly all Ecclesiasticall authoritie is To his fift argument we answer 1. By a demurre whether God doth oft-times makes use of unsanctified persons and the rude multitude which I doe not under-value because I refuse to entitle them to a power in Church-matters greater then ever the Apostles had to advance his glory propagate his Gospel promote his worship vindicate his truth edifie his Church A Judas a Balaam a Saul a Gamaliel a persecuting High Priest were not the rude multitude unsanctified persons it is like they were at least most of them But God did not oft-times make use either of Balam or Saul or Gamaliel or the persecuting High Priest either to propagate his Gospel promote his worship edifie his Church c. but the Devill oft-times made use of them to the contrary viz. to hinder his Gospel to pollute his worship to persecute his Church c. And for the vulgar multitude which he commends as none-such for forwardnesse to beleeve follow professe Christ embrace the Gospel though he confesseth that many of them did it for sinister ends I answer 1. That this multitude was but one swallow not a multitude of swallows and therefore not sufficient to make his spring of Gods oft-times using the rude multitude to doe such and such things 2. They that beleeve follow professe Christ embrace the Gospel out of sinister ends when they decline and fall back as all sinister-ended Professors are like to doe first or last and as this vulgar multitude generally did are like more