was decreed and donne was ascribed to Caesar Bibulus was a Cypher So whatsoeuer interpretation the RomaÌ„ churche that is the Pope geueth that must be intertayued the fathers sett behinde the dore This your Cardinall that was present at the counsell vnder Pius the fowerth telleth vs. Whatsoeuer the churche teacheth vs is the expresse worde of God whatsoeuer is taught contrarie to the sence and sentence of the churche is the expresse worde of the diuell CHAMP I maruell whither you will wander at lenght what is all this to the tryinge whether you or we haue the true sence of the scriptures The councell of Trent decreeth expreslie that which you seeme to approoue and yett you are not content with it your example of Caesar and Bibulus in a grammer scholler had been tollerable but in a D. of diuinitie it is too ridiculous And if you dislike the doctrine which you ascribe to Cardinal Hosius why doe you onlie mumble and grumble att it with in your teeth without disproouinge it either by scriptures or fathers But your malice will not permitt you to imbrace the truth nor your courage or strenght serue you to impugne it PILK And another more auncient then he It is no maruelle if the practise of the churche at one tyme interprett the scriptures after this manner and another after that for the vnderstandinge runneth with the practice for that sence which is concurrent with the practice is the quickinge spiritt therefore the scriptures followe church not conuertiblie If then the sentence of the Fathers ruÌ„ne not with the moderne Roman church they are not the messengers of God but in this manes opinion instruments of the diuell CHAMP You still wander out of the way and stray from your purpose But I will yett folowe you thoughe not without some patience Cusanus speaketh expresslie of the vse or sece of scriptures so farr as they pertaine to the rite order or manner of administring the Sacraments and namelie of Communion vnder one or both kindes which rites or Ceremonies because they may be diuerse and changeable without anie preiudice either to the nature of the Sacraments or to the veritie of holy scripture as indeede they are at this day different in the Greeke and Latin church the one consecratinge the holy Eucharist in leauened bredd the other in vnleauened and yett neither of them contrarie to the scriptures they may be altered and changed accordinge as the wisdome of gods churche seeth iust occasion and yett accordinge to the sence and meaning of the holy scriptures which to the churche is neuer vnknowne and this is Cusanus his plaine doctrine which you could not haue been ignorant of if you had read him yourselfe But it is your good nature to make alwaies the worst sence of your authors to deceaue your reader thereby For he speaketh not of scriptures so farr as they containe articles of faith which euer are the same but as they appertaine to matters of practice which may be different accordinge to the diuersitie of circumstances occurringe In settinge downe his wordes you vse your accustomed arte and fraude For his wordes where vppon you would make your cheefe aduantage are these Therefore the scriptures followe the church which was before them and for which the scriptures are not contrarie That is the churche is not for the scriptures Whereas you leauing out some parte of his speache make his wordes to sound that the sence and meaninge of the scriptures followe the vnderstandinge of the churche and not the vnderstandinge of the churche the sence of scriptures but might be contrarie vnto it which neither he nor anie other catholick man euer dreamed of PILK And in verie deed thoughe the Pope hath deuised a solemne oath whereunto your prosessours are sworne that they shall admitte of the holy scriptures accordinge to that sence which the holy mother the churche holdeth and they shall not at anie tyme take or interprett them but accordinge to the vnanimous consent of the fathers yett it is manifest that they doe not onlie leaue the sence which the fathers followe but followe that which noe father within 500. yeres after Christ did euer dreame of CHAMP Seinge the councell of Trent hath decreed as you say and the Pope hath appointed an othe to binde men to followe the sence of the scriptures deliuered by the church and consent of the fathers you haue small reason to say it is manifest that catholikes doe leaue that sence without some manifest proofe of your assertion which I will expect and exact of you vnder paine to esteeme you a rashe and slaunderous impostour In the meane tyme whilst you performe this taske you may for your erudition vnderstand that it is one thinge to giue an interpretation of a place of scripture which the fathers haue not geuen before and another to interprete it contrarie to the vniforme Consent of fathers The churche of god beinge no lesse assisted nowe by the holie ghost which teacheth her all truth accordinge to the infalible promise of our auiour Christe then was the churche within the first 500. yeeres shee is no lesse able to interprete the scripture accordinge to the true meaninge thereof then shee was then yet shee neuer gaâ—e-saith the interpretation of the auncient churche or of the vniforme consent of the holy fathers but lett vs heare howe you prooue your sayinge PILK Your late diuines interpretinge that place there shall be one flocke and one Shephearde forsake the fathers which vnderstande it of Christ and cleaue to the sence of theire mother who will haue it to be the Pope CHAMP Are you a master in Cambridge and knowe not that these two sences may be both true without anie contrarietie neither moderne nor auntient diuines euer vnderstood this place otherwise then of our Sauiour Christ principallie and for himselfe or per excellâ—ntiam But that it is not trulie vnderstood of him to whome he commended his flock which he redeemed as S. Chriâ—ostome saith who therefore is his vicar and vicegerent here in earth and also of his lauful successour in the same charge secondarilie and by participation none but contentious heretikes who will see nothinge in the scriptures contratie to theire errour doe will or canne denie PILK Doe this in remembrance of me that is sacrifice this is nowe the sence of the Roman churche shewe one father that tooke it soe and you shall weare the garland CHAMP Stand to your worde and the garlande will be mine by anie indifferent mans iudgment Heare S. Ireneus who liued aboue 1400. yeres agoe â—uÌ„ qui ex creatura panis est accepit gratias egit dicens Hoc est corpus meuÌ„ caliceÌ„ similiter qui est ex creatura quae est secundum nos suum sanguinem confessus ect noui testamenti nouam docuit oblationcm quam Ecclesia ab Apostoliâ— accipieÌ„s in vniuerso mundo offerâ— Deo When he tooke that which is of the creature bread
and gaue thankes sayinge This is mâ— boddy and likewise the chalice which is of the creature which is with vs hee confessed it to be his bloode and taught a newe oblation ' of the newe lawe which the Church receauinge from the Apostles doth offer it to God thorough the whole worlde These are his wordes you will peraduenture say that here is no mention of these wordes doe this the exposition whereof is nowe in question It is true that here is no expresse mention of them But S. Ireneus epreslie sayinge that our Sauiour Christ when he sayde hoc est corpus meum taught a newe oblation of the newe Testament declareth plainlie in what wordes he taught this oblatioÌ„ For it beinge clear in S. Ireneus his doctrine that our Sauiour Chr. sacrificed his bodie and bloud at that tyme it cannot be called into doubt but he gaue to his Apostles by these wordes doe this power and authoritie to doe the same PILK What father euer conceiued drinke ye all of this to be vnderstoode onlie of priests and not of the people also which nowe is the sence of your holy mother CHAMP No man saith these wordes drinke â—ee all of this so to haue been spoken to the Apostells and consequentlie to priests that the laytie is by diuine precept excluded but that they may if the churche which all that will not be as publicans and heathens are bound to heare thinke good also drinke thereof as they haue donne in some tymes and some places But that these wordes are so spoken to the laytie that they are commaunded to drinke of the Chalice you cannot I thinke shewe anie one father that affirmeth it much lesse the vniforme consent of the fathers And therefore your obiection is altogether impertinent to prooue that we leaue the interpretation of the fathers PILK Againe psalme the. S. God putt all thinges vnder his seete that is of the Pope beastes of the field that is men liuinge vppon the earth fishes of the sea that is soules in purgatorie fowles of heauen that is soules of the blessed which by Canonization the Pope may propose to be adored name anie father if you can that so dalyed and played with godes sacred worde CHAMP Name you anie one chatholike Doctor that geueth this interpretation of this place for the literall sence thereof or if you cannot blush at your impertinencies bringinge the morall or misticall interpretation of one author to prooue that catholikes leaue the vniforme literall interpretation of the scriptures geuen by the fathers yea though this were geuen for the literal sence of this place yet would it not prooue that we leaue the fathers interpretation of the same place one passage of scripture beinge capable of diuers literall interpretations so that your impertinencie appeareth yett more grosse PILK As then the Iewes tyed themselues to theire Rabbines that they must receiue whatsoeuer they teach thoughe they say the right hande is the lefte so haue you captiuated your self in such manner to the sence of the Romane churche that one of yours is not afrayde to teache is anie man haue her interpretation of anie place of scripture thoughe he neither knowe or vnderstande whether or howe it agree with the scriptures yett he hath the worde of god CHAM We doe not imitate the Iewes in adheringe to the churches sence of the scripture as you idlie imagine but we followe therein the expresse doctrine of our Sauiour Christ who tell'eth vs that he that will not heare the churche is to be esteemed as a publican or heathen whose doctrine if you did esteeme more then your owne fancie you would not carpe at that sayinge of Hosius which is true if the gospell itselfe which teacheth the like doctrine be not false PILK As for the fathers we reade theire workes and geue God thankes for theire labours who haue cleared manie obscurities in the scriptures desended the auntient doctrine of the church against the nouelties of heretikes yett with their good leaues we passe by theire interpretations when they are dissonant from the scriptures and willinglie imbrace them when they are consonaÌ„t tryinge theire expositions by them not them by theire expositions and in a worde euer deducing the sence of the scriptures from themselues CHAMP It is well you here acknowledge some obscurities in the scriptures Hereafter if I be not deceiued you will come to denie all such thinge as shall be noted when we come to the place if we goe so farr together The honour you geue here to the fathers workes is no other then you geue to the damnedst heretikes that euer wrote so kinde you are vnto them For that which anie heretike saith conformablie to holy scripture you willinglie imbrace And in one worde you deduce the sence of scriptures from your owne selfe-willed fancie makinge it say what you list to belieue and not belieuinge that which the scriptures say indeede PILK Not without cause is there an healthfull ecclesiasticall Canon vigilantlie constituted whereunto certayne bookes of the prophets and Apostels doe appertaine which we doe not iudge att all and accordinge to which we iudge freelie of other letters of the faithfull or of infidels saith S. August So that beinge vrged with Cyprians authoritie that these which were baptized in heresie or schisme were to be rebaptized he answereth we offer noe wronge to Cyprian when we putt a difference betweene his letters and the Canonicall authoritie of holy scriptures for as he goeth on in the next chapter I doe not accompte of Cyprians letters as Canonicall but I weigh them by the bookes that are Canonicall and what is agreable in them to the authoritie of diuine scriptures I with praise intertayne and what is disagreeinge with his leaue I refuse CHAMP We neither compare nor oppose the fathers workes to the scriptures and therefore these wordes of S Aug. are as impertinentlie alleaged by you as all the rest you haue hitherto sayde If anie one father teach anie thinge contrarie to the scriptures interpreted by the rest of the fathers and the catholicke churche as S. Cyprian of humane errour and not of willfull obstinacie did we receiue not his doctrine in that pointe As S. August in the 32. cap. here quoted by you expresslie saith in these wordes That which bâ—esseâ— cyprian thought of the baptizinge of heretikes and schismatikes I receiue not because the churche doth not receiue it for the which S. Cyprian shedd his blood Followe you S. Aug example in refusinge the fathers interpretation in this manner no man will finde faulte with you PILK This freedome which S. Aug. sheweth we protestants freelie mantaine against the slauerie of your popish spiritts knowinge what is due to men and acknowledginge what is proper to gods holy worde which we euer interprete out of it selfe wherein we followe the direction of the auÌ„tient priests and leuits that read the lawe vnto the people expoundinge the meaninge and gaue the
disputer to beare the name of a doctour But S. Athanasius saith they fledd to the fathers seinge they coulde not preuaile by the scriptures Be it that S. Athan saith soe it is euident thereby that they alleaged scriptures contrarie to your assertion S. HieroÌ„ whom you drawe in by the eares saith as little to your purpose putt case you cite him truelie which I will not stande to examine For he saith no such thinge as that heretikes alleage not scriptures which you shoulde prooue but because you imagine his sayinge to make against traditions which if you had but one sparke of iudgment you would see howe vnseasonablie you impugne here I will answere it by puttinge you in minde that catholickes pretend not traditions without the testimonie of scriptures butt accordinge to the expresse testimonie thereof which you knowe and therefore is your impertinencie in alleaginge S. Hierome his wordes lesse excusable PILK What then thoughe Satan the Father and heretikes his sonnes abuse the letter of the scripture as you papists nowe doe yett with noe other weapon did Christ conquer him and them to teach vs that they onlie are the sworde of the spirit wherewith the deuill and all his adherents must be putt to flight but this you say is the sence and not the wordes onlie CHAMP Whether you or we abuse the scriptures as Satan did is in controuersie betweene vs and must necessarilie light vppon one side In the meane tyme whilst it appeare whether you or we be the scholers of Satan hence it is clearlie manifest that it is not enoughe for the proofe of anie doctrine to cite scripture for it which is my position against which you haue hitherto wilfullie wrangled And if you will stande to that ignoraunt paradox of yours that with no other weapon then the scriptures our Sauiour conquered the deuill and his children and that to teach vs that they onlie are the sworde of the spiritt where with they are to be putt to flight blott out of your Bibles the whole newe testament as you haue donne manie bookes of the ould for no worde of the newe testament was written diuers yeeres after our Sauiours Ascention into heauen and triumphe ouer the deuill and hel Woulde you haue me conclud this in forme of argument against you Here take it That scripture onlie is the sworde of the spirit which our Sauiour vsed But he vsed noe other scripture then the oulde testament ergo the ould testament oulie is the sworde of the spirit The maior is your owne the minor is euident the conclusion followeth directlie vpon the premisses Whence clearlie followeth this consequence Therefore the newe testament is not necessarie So that you see howe well you argue for the authoritie and dignitie of holy scripture But qui ambulat in tenebris nescit quo vaait PILK Madd Orestes would sweare he were out of his witts that could imagine otherwise For the the Gospell lyeth not in the wordes of the scripture but in the sence not in the rinde but in the pith not in the leaues of speeches but in the grounde of reason saith the same Father Wherein it followeth that gods worde foolishlie vnderstoode is not his worde which consisteth not in reading but in vnderstandinge and that adulteratinge the sence hurteth the truth as much as marringe the sentences of scriptures The sence then is the GarlaÌ„d we striue for which whether it be with you or vs you refer your selfe vnto the incorrupte testimonie of some holy Father that liued a thousand yeres a goe as if you meant to stand to the Fathers verdict whome your good maysters as scornefullie contemne as if they were schoole boyes when once they contradict the sence of the Roman church CHAMP I willinglie ioyne with you in this issue also that the sence of the scripture is the garlande you ought to striue for And if you dare the Fathers shall be the iudge of our plea but you dare as well eat hoat coales as stande to theire verdict PILK When we prooue out of Tertullian that liued 200. yeeres after Christ that Pope Zepherinus fauored the heresie of Montanus contrarie to your newe Roman Sence that Popes cannot erre we must not at all beleeue Tertullian in this point saith Bellarmine For he was a Montanist yea an euill spiritt so carried him that of euill being made worse and worse and most filthie he spued out most horrible blasphemies saith Barronius CHAMP What is this to the purpose of tryinge the true sence of the scriptures haue you so quicklie forgotten the thinge in question But to followe you in your extrauagances least you should thinke your obiection not to be answered Tell me I pray you in the small honestie of a minister whether you geue more creditt to Tertullian nowe a confessed heretike in a matter aduantageous to his errour then to all antiquitie testifyinge Zepherin Pope to haue been an holy Sainte and Martyr Are you so maliuouslie bent against the Pope and sea of Rome that to fix some fault vppon them you will put Saincts out of heauen make martyrs heretikes and that for the bare testimonie of a professed heretike lett the iudicious reader iudge what spiritt you are guided by PILK When we vrge S. Aug. to prooue that in the state of corruption there is no free will in man to that which is good contrarie to your sence Stapleton saith he went beyond all good measure in his dispute against Pelagius with like vsage doe they entertaine the rest when they crosse theire grosse errours CHAMP This obiection is as impertinent as the precedent For be it that the Fathers haue some harde speeches which heretikes abuse to theire owne hurte what maruell sith the holy ghost testifieth the like of the holy scriptures themselues Stapleton speaketh neuer a worde directlie of free will in that chapter nor yett of S. Aug. opinion thereof But hauinge shewed S. August to haue taught that gentills and others not iustified doe not sinne in all theire workes obiecteth to himselfe certaine places out of S Aug. where disputinge against Iulian the Pelagian he seemeth to incline to the contrarie opinion Which hauinge answered and explicated by other of his sayinges in the same places he concludeth Sed vtâ—unque in hac disputatione moaum forâ—asse excesserit Augustinus vt propter aduersarij putuiantissiman impudentiam etiam peccata esse diceret quae vere perfecte bona non essent tamen nusquan alibi id dixisse aut scripsisse legitur vbi sine aduersario non agonostice sed dogmatice scripsit Which are the wordes of StapletoÌ„ you carpe att but why if you consider them a little better you will not easilie shewe PILK For howesoeuer your councell of Trent make a semblance to decree that the scriptures must be interpreted accordinge to the sence which the churche holdeth or the vnanimous consent of the fathers approoueth yett it is plaine that as when Caesar and Bibulus were consulls together whatsoeuer
especiallie to be beleeued Whereupon in another place speakinge of the faith wherewith we beleeue the scriptures he willeth vs to followe those who inuite vs first to beleeue that which we are not able to conceiue that beinge made more stroÌ„ge in faith we may attaine to vnderstande that which we beleeue God himselfe confirminge and inwardlie inligthenninge our mindes and not men This is sufficient to shewe that neither arte nor order requireth at your handes to prooue the scriptures as you disorderlie imagine CHAMP The scriptures or verities conteyned in them are confessed to be principles in respect of all Theologicall conclusions deduced from them and therefore in respect of them they neede no farther proofe to anie christian diuine that beleeueth them to be the worde of God But they are not principles in respect of the articles of our faith in generall but are themselues to be beleeued for the same authoritie of God reueylinge as all other articles of faith are And that they are not necessarie principles of the articles of our â—aith it is manifest by that before the scriptures were written the churche of God beleeued manie of the same articles which nowe it beleeueth Therfore when you say the scriptures or verities contained in them are primae veritatis if ignorance thoughe grosse and not to be excused in a doctour of diuinitie doth not excuse you you will make the scriptures not onlie to be gods worde but also to be God himselfe For besides him there is no prima veritas which is to be beleeued for it selfe as vppon better consideration I thinke you will not dare to denie Seeinge therefore the scriptures are not primae veritatis or first truthe but the testimonies wordes or verities reueiled by the first truthe they are not euen by your owne grounde to be beleeued for themselues but for the truthe and authoritie of the first veritie God himselfe of whose reuelation we must haue sufficient grounde before we canne securelie and prudentlie beleeue the scriptures to be his worde That which you bringe out of S. Thomas maketh euidentlie against you so iudicious are you in your allegations For the scriptures beinge not God they are not the first truth and therefore not to be beleeued for themselues S. Aug. in the first place maketh also against you sayinge that the scriptures are to be beleeued to bee of gods spiritt and not to be knowne For to beleeue this he recurreth not to the scriptures themselues but to the authoritie which they had obtayned throughe the whole worlde The second authoritie of S. Aug. is wholie impertinent to your purpose as the reader thoughe but of meane iudgmeÌ„t will easilie discerne Hee sayinge nothinge that soundeth as if the scriptures were to be beleeued for themselues or without other authoritie And therfore thus farr haue you saide nothinge that may satisfie this assertion of the Manuall that in the orderlie proceedinge in this present poincte the scriptures shoulde first be prooued but you will peraduenture satisfie better hereafter PILK Yett further to satisfy you I answere that the scriptures doe sufficientlie prooue theÌ„selues and these and these bookes to be the scripture both by that inwarde light that is contained in them and that outwarde operation that they haue in vs. For first they are a lanterne to our feete and a light to our path a candle that shineth in a darke place And as a light doth discouer those thinges that are in darkenes and demonstrateth also it selfe vnto the eies saith Aug. so doth the holy scriptures by that connatur all light that is in them manifest themselues vnto those whose vnderstandinge is enlightened to behoulde them Which if you cannot perceiue desire God to remoue the scales from your eies as he did from Paules for this is a case so cleare that Stapleton graunteth it credenti scriptura seipsam probat commendat CHAMP All this proueth noe other thinge then that to christians and catholikes who belieue the scriptures to be the worde of God and vnderstand it in the sence of the churche they haue all these properties of light lampe and lanterne and this is it which Stapleton expreslie saith if hou had taken but verie ordinarie heede to his wordes But to say that either to a Pagan who beleeueth not the scriptures to be Gods worde or to an heretike who vnderstandeth them not in the sence of the churche but accordinge to his owne fancie they are such as doe manifest themselues to be the worde of God is a most sencelesse Paradox contradicted by manifest experience not onlie in Martin Luther and all his disciples who as you knowe reiect diuerse bookes receiued by Caluin and his followers but also of the auncient and holy fathers who did not vniuersallie receiue as Canonicall Scripture all such bookes of the newe testament as nowe are receiued by you And yett none of all these I suppose you will say wanted light to see that which is manifest of it selfe PILK Againe they are knowne by theire operation in vs for the worde of the Lorde is pure and conuerts the soule a two edged sworde Heb. 4. 12. a verie fierie worde psal 119. 14. which purifieth the soules inflameth the affections enlighteneth the vnderstandinge and so softeneth the heart of the hearer that it frameth it sitt to all goodnes Which noe other worde or worke deuised by the witt of men or Angells canne doe Where vppoÌ„ LactaÌ„tius speakinge of the differeÌ„ce betweene the doctrine of the gentills of the churche saith that the wisdome of the Philosophers doth not roote out vice but hide it whereas a fewe precepts of God so change the whole man and mould him a newe by castinge away the ould that one would not thinke him to be the same Geue me a man that is wrathfull euill tougued vnbridled by a fewe wordes of God I will make him meeke as a lambe Geue me a couetous auaritious and tenacious man I will restore him liberall and distributinge his money with his owne handes Geue me a man fearfull of sorrowe and death he shall contemne crosses fires dangers bulls c. By one lauer shall all malice be expelled such is the force of diuine wisdome that beinge powered into the brest of man it expelleth folly att one blowe that is the mother of all vices What man then that hath his hearte thus mollified his will rectified his vnderstandinge cleared and his whole course suddenlie altered can deliberatelie doubte of the scriptures seinge Christe himselfe teacheth vs thus to knowe them Is anie will performe the will of his father he shall knowe of the doctrine whether it be good or noe CHAMP In whome I pray you doth the scripture worke these effects you haue here so industriously numbred vp in those that beleeue them not to be true or to be the worde of God you will not say so I suppose Why doe you therefore bring these arguments to prooue the scriptures to be easily knowne to
the other is a mere denyall or negation of faith of a positiue article and is as well in horses or asses as in men onlie with this difference that men are capable and may haue the contrarie positiue act but horses and asses cannot If your faith therefore of the negatiue articles which you houlde be of the first kinde you are bounde to prooue it by positiue testimonie of holy scripture If it be onlie of the second kinde then haue you no more faith in these articles then haue horses asses or other brute beastes Nowe to the fathers testimonies so farr as they may seeme to make anie thinge against the catholicke doctrine of traditions or the churches authoritie I answere supposinge they sounde as you sett them downe which I will not stande to examine here that whatsoeuer is prooued by traditions or the churches iudgment is warranted by the scripture which geueth testimonie to the churche and traditions Which answere is S. August lib. 1. cont Crescon cap. 33. PILK Therefore concerninge the profe of our faith in the negatiue points of purgatorie Reall presence Sacrifice of the Masse sith there is noe footinge for them in the worde of God we answere with Basill that it is not faith but a manifest defection from faith to denie that which is written or to bringe in anie thinge that is not written where as Christ IESVS our Lorde saith my sheepe heare my voice CHAMP The iudicious reader shal be iudge whether these catholike articles haue not much faster footinge in the holy scriptures then your contiarie negatiues Neither doth S. Basill anie wayes fauour you For he confirminge his sayinge with these wordes of our Sauiour my sheepe heare my voyce excludeth not that worde of our Sauiour which is more properlie his worde then the scripture For he sayth not my scriptures but my sheepe heare my voyce therfore he speaketh of the voyce as it is deliuered by worde and not as it is written PILK And yett to satisfy you we shall finde sufficient weapons out of the scriptures to lay these Anekims on the grounde Nowe as the Roman Emperour that meant to subdue Germanie brought out his armie and put them in aray vppon the sea shoore and presentlie charged them to gather shelles tellinge them that they were spoyles of the Ocean due to the capitoll So you hauinge marshalled your forces and putt them in order tell your reader that the whole body of them is but a Scheleton bare bones tyed together with drye Sinewes and then without question you will attaine a glorious victorie and bringe spoyles fitt for the vaticane Yet you doubt not but your treatise will please some mens appetite and I am of your minde for like lippes like lettuce Thus from your prolusion I come to your mayne battaille which thus you beginne CHAMP What sharpe weapons you wil finde in the scriptures for your negatiue faith or no beleefe I will with patience expect and hauinge with all indifferencie pondered them I will tell you with all sinceritie what weight they are of in my iudgment In the meane tyme I must tel you that your conclusion seemeth to me as litle wittie as all the rest of your discourse is learned and therfore findinge by the litle experience I haue of you that such lettuce sute well with your lippes I leaue them wholy to your selfe Manuall The first controuersie It is knowne that the catholike Roman churche doth admitte more bookes and parcelles of holy Bible for scripture then the protestants doe and consâ—quently acknowledge a larger Canon then they and yett notwithstandinge shee teacheth PILK The Grecians are euer children rightlie fitteth you Romanists that still lispe like littell children and excellentlie speake without sence For to say the catholike Romane church is as good sence as the vniuersall particular churche CHAMP It is your dull vnderstandinge and not our lisping language that maketh these wordes the Catholicke Roman â—hurâ—h without sence to you For the attribute Romane doth not restraine anie whit the amplitude of the signification of that worde catholicke or vniuersall either in reâ—pect of tyme or place as you ignorantlie imagine but doth onlie distinguish it from all such sects as falselie and presumptuously terme themselues catholike but dare not call themselues RomaÌ„s or Roman Catholickes As in former ages the worde catholike was added to the name christian for the same purpose as auncient Pacianus signifieth Therefore when we say a Roman Catholike we woulde say no more but a true and not a falsely termed catholike And because you are a member of one of those sects which are discried by this worde Romane you hate it as theeues hate the light whereby they are discouered PILK For who can conceiue the catholike churche to be Roman which was in the worlde before Rome it selfe was for it is the generall assembly of the Saints Heb. 12. â—3 from Abell the first iust vnto the last that shall beleeue in Christe as S. Aug speaketh Moreouer all the nations in the worlde not the Romans were promised to Christ psal 2. Aske of me and I will geue thee the gentiles for thine inheritance and the vttermost partes of the earth for thy possession and so S. Aug writeth that God promised to the seede of Abraham not the Romans but all the gentils and sealed it with an oathe by which promise it came to passe that manie nations not contayned vnder the Roman iurisdiction receiued the Gospell and were ioyned vnto the churche CHAMP There is no greater difficultie to conceiue howe the catholike churche may be called Roman then howe the christian churche which denomination began first at Antioch is called Catholike And if you would knowe he reason why it is denominated of Rome rather then of Antioche or Hierusalem it is because S. Peeter who was Bishoppe of Rome receiued promise of our Sauiour Christ that his churche shoulde be builte vppon him as vppon a firme rocke and that hell gates shoulde neuer preuaile against it Which promise our Sauiour Christ hauinge performed it is come to passe that the churche of Christe which was first called christian then Catholike is nowe called Roman and thus much for the name RomaÌ„ Nowe I woulde haue you marke that whatsoeuer you say in proofe of this attribute catholike you say in condemnation of your owne protestanticall assemblies which were neuer hearde of before Martin Luther no more then the Arrians were before Arrius and the rest of the sects and heresies before theire maisters and authours Which one argument had you but anie indifferencie ioyned with anie meane iudgment woulde be sufficient to make you detest the felloweshippe of such newe maisters PILK Besides the moderne Romane churche hath made a defection from that which the primatiue Roman church maintayned in so much that S. Paules Epistles written to the auncient RomaÌ„s may iustlie be called an antilogie of that Religion which nowe is professed in the cittie of Rome CHAMP Some substantiall proofe
indifferent reader may iudge whether the positions sett downe in the Manuall vnder the title of protestants positions be not truly theirs Manuall protestant positions All articles of faith are so expresselie contained in scriptures as out of them onlie full proofe may be made thereof All articles of faith are at least so contained in holy scriptures as without any testimonie or authoritie of the churche or traditions they may thence be plainly and distinctlie deduced These are the positions in the Manuall in this first controuersie vnder the title of protestant positions which you say are not acknowledged by them And yett if I vnderstande your wordes you admitte them neither can you iuâ—lâ—e denie them as I sayde before but lett vs heare what you say for your selfe PILK They say not that all articles of faith are expresselie sett downe in holy scriptures but either expressely or analogicallie and so they haue a full proofe out of them CHAMP Compare this position with that sett downe by me in the first place and see wherein they differ Only you make the first parte of your position absolute as if it had been so set downe by me but this is your owne fraude and deceipte For I made it not absolute but modall or comparatiue as appeareth by the thinge it selfe The position therefore sett downe by me is yours and therefore to be prooued out of the scriptures as the position it selfe requireth â—herein if you fasle your position will be conuinced to be false and your faith accordinglie PILK Secondlie they admitte of the testimonie of the churche both concerninge articles of faith and the scriptures themselues First to discerne true from false Secondlie publiklie to preache them Thirdlie to interpret and expounde them but euer accordinge to the scriptures themselues without anie addition of her owne either of sufficiencie or perfection vnto them CHAMP That is in good speach they admitt the testimony of the churche so farr as it contradicteth not theire errours Or they admitte of it not to be iudged by it for so all disputes woulde quicklie haue an end but to iudge it themselues for so they knowe they may wrangle eternallie PILK Here then is the difference that the papists say the churche addeth sufficiencie to the scriptures and fulnes The protestants say shee addeth none but sheweth that which is in it The papists say shee brought light vnto them The protestants say shee bringeth none but declareth and manifestesh that which it hath in it selfe This then is theire doctrine CHAMP The catholikes doe teache and beleeue that the churche of God hath infallible authoritie to declare what bookes are holy scripture and also to deliuer the true sence and meaninge thereof neither of which the scriptures do performe by themselues and yett are they both necessarie if not to euerie ChristiaÌ„ in particular yett to the whole churche in generall They doe not teach or beleeue that the churche addeth anie truth or verity to the scriptures which they immediately haue from God himselfe whose word and reuelation they containe but shee declareth vnto vs infalliblie what are the verities contayned in them To which beleefe and doctrine you seeme to come verie neere in your last wordes if you were constant therein But you say and vnsay at euerie turne Nowe lett vs heare the positions which you say the protestants acknowledge in this controuersie PILK ANTITHESIS All truth concerninge faith and good workes necessarie vnto saluation is sufficientlie and fullie deliuered vnto vs in the holy scriptures CHAMP Seinge you voluntarilie enter combate why doe you not obserue the conditions prescribed It was required that in case you woulde impugne the catholike position sett downe and prooued in the Manuall as hitherto you haue laboured to doe you should prooue by expresse scriptures the contradictorie which in that case must necessarilie be yours and not to frame vnto your selfe another which may stand with that you impugned beinge like a shooe that fitteth euerie foote This I say because the position sett downe here by you vnderstoode with these two restrictons is not denyed of anie catholike The first is that it include not the scriptures themselues but suppose them as beleeued The second that it speake onlie of truthes or articles necessary to euerie mans saluation For these are fewe and sufficientlie expressed in holy scripture Your position vnderstoode in this mannet hath noe aduersarie and therefore needeth not your feeble and weake proofes Neuertheles because your proofes seeme to suppose a further meaninge in your position to witt that all thinges whatsoeuer without exception or restriction are to be beleeued either by euerie man in perticular or all men in generall are fullie sett downe in holy scripture which is opposite to the catholike position of the Manuall I will examine your proofes and try what weight they beare PILK Proofe of the protestants position Deuteronomie 4. 2. yee shall not adde vnto the worde which I commaunde you neither shall yee detracte from it that yee may keepe the commaundements of the Lorde your God which I coÌ„maunde you Argument That whereunto nothing must be added nothinge detracted contayneth a perfect and full doctrine of faith and manners such is the scripture ergo CHAMP What will you vnderstand by the word which God heere commaundeth onlie the fiue bookes of Moises which then were onlie extant If you vnderstande it so as trulie you cannott otherwise what will you say to all the reste of the bookes both of the ould newe testament written since were they added against gods commandement you will feare to say so What then will this place serue you for to make a poore shewe of some proofe out of scripture to deceaue your lesse skilfull reader and for noe other purpose But peraduenture you will contend that it ought to be vnderstoode of all that which God shoulde speake aswell after as before and so to comprehend the whole scripture This sence though not verie probable I am content to accept of that you may see I doe not deale niggardlie with you To your argument therefore I say you iugle somethinge in itt but not cunninglie If you woulde conclude anie thinge out of this place of scripture you must say in your minor but such is the word of God And then the conclusion will be directlie against your selfe who detracteth from gods worde both written denyinge manie and sundrie bookes of holy scripture and also vnwritten reiectinge all traditioÌ„s which the scriptures themselues commaunde vs to receiue And so haue you concluded your selfe a manifest transgressour of gods lawe and commaundement When you shall answere sufficientlie this argument I will pay you a fee worthe your doctors Cappe PILK Proofe 2. Prou 30. 5. 6. Euerie worde of God is pure he is a shielde to them that put theire trust in him adde you nothinge vnto his worde least he reprooue thee and thou be founde a lyar CHAMP Therefore what Therefore all articles of faith are fullie
blasphemous Arians To say nothinge of the diuell his citinge of scripture euen against our blessed Sauiour by al which it is more then euident that the sence of holy scripture besides the wordes is necessarilie required to make sufficient proofe of true doctrine For which reason I often bringe the incorrupte testimonie of some holy father for the sence of the place alleaged by me who haueinge liued att least a thousande yeares before these controuersies began cannott be esteemed partiall one our side PILK We adore the fulnes of scripture and prooue from thence not some but euerie pointe of our doctrine which you Iesuits neither canne doe nor professe to doe but the contrarie charginge them with insufficiencie and imperfection which howe manfullie you can desprooue by other texts will appeare in the discourse ensuinge CHAMP As you are more redounâ— in wordes in this section then in the precedent so are you more impertinent Your flant out of Tertullian shall be answered in the controuersie of scripture where you repeat it againe And for your vaine and windie brag to prooue euerie point of your doctrine out of holy scripture I knowe alreadie howe it will be performed to witt by fillinge your margents with quotations of scripture to delude the ignorant which beinge examined and compared with the article to be prooued haue as much resemblaÌ„ce with it as an aple with an oyster The ministers of Fraunce beinge of late detected of this fraude before the kinge himselfe and prouoked by his preacher to iustifie theire citations of scripture quoted in the margent of the confession of theire faith thoughe they seemed to take haynouslie the accusation yett till this day haue they not iustified theire quotations nor euer will Howe you will quitt your selfe in this point we shall see when we come vnto itt PILK In the meane while it is vntrue that all heretikes alleaged scriptures which they loue as wel as dogges doe whippes but iust as you papists say there is more force in tradition then in the written worde for they are owles that cannot abide the light of the scripture they massacre them as Martian did that they may builde vppe theire owne matters they alleage Apostolicall traditions as Artemon did who saide that all the auncients yea the Apostells taught and saide like himselfe and laide handes on the scriptures irreligiouslie sayinge that he had reformed them CHAMP You affirme bouldlie but prooue nothinge a fowle faulte in a doctour That all heretikes vniuersallie alleage scriptures which you say is moste vntrue heare the testimonie of one that is not partiall to either of vs and of more iudgment in this matter then vs both I meane Vincentius Lirinensis of equall standinge with S. Aug. who writeth thus Some will peraduenture demande here whether heretikes doe vse the testimonies of scripture They doâ— trulie and that vehementlie For you shall see them runne thorough all the bookes of holy scripture throughe the bookes of Moses of the kinges of the psalmes of the Apostles Euangelists and prophets For whether they speake with theire owne fellowes or with other whether priuatelie or publikelie whether in Sermons or in bookes whether in banquetts or in the streetes they neuer vtter anie thinge of theire owne but they will seeme to shaddowe it with the wordes of scripture Reade the workes of Paulus Samosateuus of Priscilian of Eunomius of Luther Caluin Zuinglius and of the rest of the plagues thou shalt finde almost an infinite heape of examples noe page that is not painted with the passages ' of the newe testament Nowe iudge your selfe whether your sayinge or myne is the more vntrue Yea which is more doe not I pray you the phaÌ„tasticall Swinkefildians a younger broode of your grande father Luther alleage scripture for theire reiectinge of all scripture and adheringe to theire dreames and reuelations yea and such scriptures as if you had the like for anie pointe of your misbeleefe you would thinke it fullie prooued by them You say that heretikes hate scriptures as dogges doe whippes which is true when they are vnderstoode in the sence of the churche and not accordinge to theire owne interpretation and after the same manner doe you loue them and not otherwise They affirme say you as papists doâ— more force to be in traditions then in scriptures What papist can you name that euer affirmed this name one at least or say you belie theÌ„ and doe not inuert the question but compare the receiued scripture with an approoued tradition for so are they to be compared to finde out whether of them hath the greater force where I woulde haue you further to note that the heretikes theire alleaginge of traditions doth prooue the authoritie of traditions euen with catholikes For no man of common seÌ„ce will alleage an authoritie which he knoweth to be not receiued of his aduersarie or could proue that it ought to be receiued You say Marâ—ion did massacre the scriptures But did he massacre the them more then your Maysters Luther and Caluin doe who cutt out of them manie whole bookes besides manie notable parcels of those bookes which they seeme to receiue Artemon you say affirmed that all the auncients yea the Apostles taught as he did and yett layde irreligious handes vppon the scriptures sayinge he had reformed them And doe not I pray you your masters say and doe the verie same where for the loue of God were your witts when you wrote these thinges that you sawe not all these sayinges of yours to be bloudie stripes to your selfe lett vs see the rest PILK Yea Arrius himselfe began thus his booke Thalia After this manner haue I learned of the elect of God accordinge to faith the knowers of him and the right walkers after him And of his followers whom you esteeme to haue stoode so much vppon the scriptures Athanasius reportes that when they coulde not preuaile by them they fledd to the Fathers as theeues vsuallie pretende honest and modest men to be theire companions like the wicked Iewes which claimed Abraham for theire Father when they were conuicted by the scriptures Against all which as against your traditions we oppose that worthie sayinge of Hierome All thinges that they pretende without authoritie and testimonie of scriptures the worde of God thrust through CHAMP You goe still forewarde in your impertinences hauinge either forgotten what you shoulde prooue or wittinglie wandringe vpp and downe to dazell the eies of your lesse skilfull reader and to wearie your aduersarie with followinge your idle stepps What I pray you doth all this you haue sayde make to prooue that heretickes alleage not scriptures for theire errours which is that you vndertooke to prooue nothinge att all If you woulde prooue that Arrius and his sectaries alleaged not scriptures for theire heresie because in the first line of his booke Thalia which seemeth to haue much semblance with the stile of your elected brotherhoode he alleageth none you are too seelie a