Selected quad for the lemma: sense_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
sense_n	catholic_n	church_n	communion_n	2,595	5	9.8911	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A33377	Mr. Claude's answer to Monsieur de Meaux's book, intituled, A conference with Mr. Claude with his letter to a friend, wherein he answers a discourse of M. de Condom, now Bishop of Meaux, concerning the Church.; Reponse au livre de Monsieur l'évesque de Meaux, intitulé Conférence avec M. Claude. English	Claude, Jean, 1619-1687.; Bossuet, Jacques Bénigne, 1627-1704.	1687 (1687)	Wing C4591; ESTC R17732	130,139	128

Scripture and in what we must renounce these in deference to a higher Authority Whether Councils and their pretended Infallibility ought to silence all even the most just scruples against whatever they shall please to determine or whether Almighty God have not ordered the matter so that without some recourse had to our private Judgments even These cannot be received as a Rule of Faith to us but all imaginable care and an impartial examination of the thing always presupposed the decisive voice does of necessity belong at last to a mans own self M. de Meaux we see took a great deal of pains by a previous discourse upon this Topick to prepare his Proselyte for the ensuing Conference and he was no doubt in the right to pitch upon this as the main Argument for her Conversion It being indeed the very foundation and support of all the points in dispute between us the best and most cunningly contrived expedient to make men first embrace and then persevere in Error and Superstition For Protestants are usually apt to be squeamish and cannot digest Opinions contrary to Sense and Reason they sometimes grow so bold too as to question their Adversaries integrity Now what can be more satisfactory in such Circumstances than to be invited into the Communion of a Church which you are told in all even her most absurd Decrees is continually assisted with the unerring guidance of the Holy Ghost and put under a happy impossibility of deceiving her Members tho illnatured people should imagine her so wicked to desire and endeavour it This then being fixed as a first principle the understanding is sufficiently subdued for humane reasonings to interpose afterwards would be impertinent and sawcy and so the harshest and most unpalatable Doctrines go glibly down by the help of this excellent Vehicle the Churches Authority and Infallibility The same method is observable among the Missionaries here in England who after having tried us first with general schemes of the disputable points and then endeavoured to establish some of them particularly to little or no purpose do now at last take sanctuary in the Churches Despotick power and begin to seem sensible that either this or nothing must stand them in any stead The debate upon this Head first began to grow warm upon occasion of the Royal Papers which because bad money is not priviledged to pass unquestioned tho it have the King's stamp upon it were considered with a Judgment and Modesty becoming both a sincere zeal for Truth and a dutiful honour for the Person whose Royal Name they bore The several Answers Vindications and Replies upon this Subject have since been followed by M. de Condom's account of his Conference as suiting very well the business then in hand And when once the World had seen That it was so reasonable Mr. Claude should be heard what he could say for himself that I should not think this Translation needed any Apology or Introduction were it not for some Objections which I foresee it may be liable to These therefore I am concerned to remove that so the Book may be read without prejudice and not expose men to mistaken notions of things for want of a short but necessary Advertisement In the first place I desire the Reader to take notice that it is not to be expected Mr. Claude should in every circumstance express himself as the Church of England would do at this day The necessity of reforming from the Corruptions of Rome was easily discerned in several Countries and each National Church having sufficient power to reform it self was just and wise in asserting that rightful Authority upon so emergent an occasion But tho all did the thing yet all not conferring together they did it not by the same methods nor with like moderation and prudence It was enough that they all agreed in the main points and for the less material ones that they maintained such a Charity as not magisterially to censure or exclude one another for these little differences This was the very way whereby the Communion is still preserved inviolable among the Protestant Churches in all Nations and is a mighty argument that they retain the true spirit of Meekness and Christian Candor Therefore in the writings of Forreigners we must always make allowances for the Genius of that particular Church whereof they are Members and not be extremely nice and critical except where we find a disagreement in some very substantial point The Reformed Gallican Church and we are perfectly of one Judgment in all the most considerable parts of this dispute concerning the Authority of the Church As That she hath no right at all to require an absolute and implicit obedience to her determinations That the Scriptures are the only aud perfect Rule of Faith That every Man is concerned and obliged to examine by this Rule whatever is imposed upon him as an Article of Faith and if he finds the Doctrine conformable thereto readily and heartily to embrace and adhere to it but if evidently repugnant by all means to reject it That no Councils even the most General are to be received any further than they proceed in correspondence with this Diving Word That they may and actually have erred in deviating from it and consequently their Decrees ought to undergo some Examination before a Man complies with them But that notwithstanding this possibility of failing we ought to entertain very reverend and charitable presumptions in favour of such Assemblies and as not to cast them off without the clearest evidence of their having perverted the Truth so where no such evidence appears to submit with the most respectful humility imaginable looking upon them as excellent means for the preservation of the Christain Faith in its Vnity and genuine Purity After so punctual an agreement in matters of the greatest consequence what can it signify if in some few others of less consideration and more remote from the main business there seem a small disparity Mens Judgments must have some room left to exercise freely in and diversity of Opinions in Circumstantials like Divisions in Musick may very well be admitted without breaking the main Cords or doing the harmony any prejudice at all 'T is confest the Divines abroad have taken up some notions distinct from ours and particularly concerning the Church its Visibility Ministry Constitution and Discipline and it might well seene strange if Mr. Claude should so far forget his Education and Country as not to scatter some of these in his Writings But I hope Englishmen may enjoy the benefit of his Discourses without being obliged to subscribe every sentence or espouse every punctilio contained in them Whether the Gentlemen of the Romish perswasion relying upon the Authority of M. de Meaux his name called in so potent an Auxiliary from beyond the Seas out of a just diffidence of their own strength here They best can tell This I am sure of that it was but Justice to Mr. Claude and the Cause he

the curiosity you have to see what I wrote upon the same subject the next day after our Interview M. de Condom having profest it was not his desire that what past between him and me should be publickly talked of I thought my self under an obligation to confine what I had written to my own Study And this hath been hitherto very punctually observed by me But now since he hath thought fit to give out Copies of his I have reason to believe that in this respect he leaves me perfectly to my liberty and is well satisfied I should do the same thing with mine I have too great an opinion of M. de Condom's Wisdom not to follow his Example in this particular and I promise my self from his Equity that he will not find fault with me for treading in his steps But because he hath been pleased to impart to us that Discourse also which he had with Mademoiselle de Du●as in private the day before our Conference you will think it convenient that before I transcribe my Relation I should first make some reflections upon That Were this a discourse of such a nature as common occasions or accidents are used to produce where a man speaks without preparation or design and delivers himself with all the freedom imaginable I confess it were unjust to examine it strictly and by rule But seeing this was composed by M. de Condom with a prospect of obliging Mademoiselle de Duras to change her Religion and which seems a studied piece a Discourse which he hath joyned to the account of our Conference as a considerable part of what past in this matter Lastly a Discourse committed to Writing upon supposal that it may be useful to others and for that purpose made in some measure publick I cannot forbear looking upon it as a work of premeditation and returning some answer to it accordingly Besides that you and I are concerned as to what Mademoiselle de Duras hath done to desire to know whether she had sufficient reasons to forsake your Communion and embrace the Romish and the examination of this Discourse will be a very proper means of clearing that point to us Now it may be reduced to two principal Parts In the first M. de Condom makes it his business to shew that the Catholick or Universal Church which we profess to believe in the Creed is a Church thus defined A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word Whence he infers That it is a visible Society He pretends also to make it appear that to this Church thus defin'd belong all the promises found in Scripture In the Second He labours to answer an Objection drawn from what happened to the Church of Israel heretofore in which we often see the true Worship of God to have been changed and corrupted and both the People and their Guides to have fallen into Idolatry These two Parts Sir we will prosecute in order and by applying our selves to what is most material in them will endeavour by the assistance of God's Grace to make the Truth so evident as shall remove all difficulties The first Part of M. de Condom's discourse examin'd Instead of granting the Ministers says M. de Condom to believe all the Fundamentals of the Faith we shew that there is one Article of the Creed they believe not which is that of the Universal Church 'T is true they say with the mouth I believe the Catholick or Universal Church as the Arrians Macedonians and Socinians say with the mouth I believe in Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost But as there is reason to accuse them of not believing these Articles because they believe them not as they ought nor according to their true sense so if we shew the Pretended Reformed that they believe not as they ought the Article of the Catholick Church we may truly say that in effect they reject so important an Article of the Creed You must know then what is meant by this expression The Catholick or Universal Church and upon this I lay for my ground That in the Creed which was only a bare declaration of Faith this Term must be taken in its most proper and most natural signification and such as is most used among Christians Now all Christians by the name of the Church understand a Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his Word If this Society makes this Profession 't is consequently visible That this is the proper and genuine signification of the word Church such as is known by every one and used in common discourse I desire no other witnesses than the Pretended Reformed themselves The sequel will declare whether the scandal of dealing with that Article of the Universal Church as the Arrians Macedonians and Socinians do would not better agree with the Character of such as follow M. de Condom's Opinion than the Reformed Ministers This we shall presently be able to judge of and to that purpose four Questions must be examined The first is Whether the sense of that Article in our Creed ought to be restrained according to M. de Condom to the Church here on Earth or extended farther Secondly Whether this be a good and sufficient definition of the Church upon Earth A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word Thirdly Whether this Church upon Earth be visible or invisible or whether it be both considered in a different sense and different respects Fourthly To what Church the Promises of Jesus Christ do belong whether to that defined by M. de Condom or to that which we are about to define These four Questions will include not only all the plausible things M. de Condom hath said in this first part of his Discourse but likewise all the other sophistical Objections that are usually put to us upon this subject Quest 1. Whether the sense of that Article in our Creed ought to be restrained according to M. de Condom to the Church here on Earth or extended farther In order to resolving the first Question you will please Sir to give me leave to explain briefly that Article of our Creed concerning the Catholick or Universal Church and how we understand it that so you may be able to judge whether M. de Condom had reason to accuse us of not taking it in its true sense And this I shall immediately enter upon We think then this being such a profession of Faith as ought to embrace its object entire and in the utmost extent and not in any one part only that by the Vniversal Church must be understood not barely the visible body or company of the Faithful at present upon Earth but that body or company of all the Faithful which have been are or at any time shall be from the beginning to the end of the World Thus the Universal Church is That which is already

triumphant in Heaven that which is now militant on Earth and that which is not yet in the world but shall be in succeeding Ages All these three Churches do really make but one because united together in the eternal purpose of God appointed to know one and the same Word to partake of one and the same Spirit and to inherit one and the same Glory They are but one Family for they have the same Father the same Rights and Priviledges the same Hopes and are called to the same Duties They are but one body under the protection and Guidance of Jesus Christ their only Head who is as the Scripture says The same yesterday to day and for ever And this is our sense of the Church called in the Creed Catholick or Universal The Latitude we here take the Church in hath displeased M. de Condom he says we put a wrong sense upon the Article and to understand it thus is in effect to reject it He is of opinion it should be confined to this part upon Earth which he defines A Society making profession to believe c. But in the first place M. de Condom must allow us to tell him that Saint Augustine however hath taught us to explain the Church in our Creed after this manner That Father indeed went farther than we do for he hath not scrupled to include in this notion the Angels confirmed in Grace Here says he and 't is in his very Exposition of the Creed that he says it we must take the Church whole and entire not only for that part of it upon earth which praises the name of God from the rising of the Sun unto the going down thereof singing to God a new Song since their deliverance from their former Captivity but also for that other part which is in Heaven and never was separated from the Divine presence the Blessed and Holy Angels The Body of Christ says he in another place is the Church not this or that Church but which is diffused over the whole world not that which is made up of men now alive but consisting of those which have been before us and those which shall come after us even to the end of the world For the whole Church being composed of all the Faithful in as much as all the Faithful are the Members of Jesus Christ 〈◊〉 Jesus Christ for its Head and this Head though exalted high in the Heavens does notwithstanding still continue to govern his body M. de Condom must likewise allow us to tell him that the Catechism of the Council of Trent hath given this sense of the Church in our Creed The Church it says and 't is in the very Explication of this Article hath two parts one of which is called Triumphant the other Militant The Triumphant is that illustrious assembly of the Blessed and all those who have vanquished and triumph'd over the World the Flesh and the Devil and who being now delivered from the miseries of this life enjoy everlasting rest and felicity The Church Militant is the company of all the Faithful yet alive upon earth which is therefore called Militant because they are engaged in a perpetual war with these most deadly enemies Satan the World and the Flesh Yet must we not from hence imagine that they are two distinct Churches but as was said two parts of one and the same Church one of which is gone before and already possest of its Heavenly Country The other daily following after till at length being united with our Saviour it shall rest above in Eternal happiness Again We must desire M. de Condom's leave to say that the very Title of Catholick or Vniversal used in the Creed does lead us to this extended notion of the Church This to me seems evident for two reasons First that this Title is given the Church to distinguish it from all false Churches which do neither exist always nor every where but spring up and die away in some particular places and at some certain times as having no sound nor lasting principle Secondly that this Title was to distinguish it from particular Churches which are but members of this great Body collected by Christ and separated from the world that he might sanctifie it to himself Whence it follows that when we say the Vniversal or Catholick Church by this is plainly meant the Church intire and at large without exception or limitation either as to time or place Lastly M. de Condom must allow us to tell him that we are brought to this notion by what follows in the Creed The Communion of Saints which terms explain this of the Catholick Church For the Saints are not only persons now living upon Earth but those also that reign in Heaven and those which shall be to the worlds end and 't is with all these that we are in Communion If the Communion of Saints were to be understood of such only as make profession to believe in Jesus Christ and govern themselves by his word This could be no other than an external Communion by living under the same Ministry and partaking of the same Sacraments which good and bad men enjoy equally And certainly this would fall far short of so great so Majestick an expression and consequently could not deserve a room in our Creed But says M. de Condom in the Creed which was only a bare declaration of faith this term must be taken in its most proper and most natural signification and such as is most used among Christians I own it must be taken in its most proper and most natural sense but even this supplies us with a fresh argument against him it being certain that the most proper and most natural sense is to take the Vniversal Church for the company of all those that are truly the faithful separated from the world by the Word and Holy Spirit of God according to the purpose of his Election from the beginning to the end of all things I acknowledg the word Church when used in a Civil sense as for instance when spoken of the people of Israel does most properly signifie an external and visible company and so far I am of M. de Condom's mind both as to what he urges out of the Acts and from the Septuagint Translation But still I assert that this word when applied to a Christian Society does not properly denote a visible Congregation or an outward profession of the Faith and no more but chiefly an inward calling a spiritual communion and such as that outward is only a consequence of and does depend upon A man must be utterly ignorant of Christianity to deny this truth The Church then is a name for something within and not barely to signifie what passes without so that implying an inward communion when the Title of Vniversal is put to it it must needs mean the whole body of true and faithful Christians By the same reason I affirm this to be its most natural

about to make Converts they ought 〈…〉 pretence of saving them a little trouble to decline any instructi●●● 〈◊〉 may be necessary for their satisfaction and being perswaded 〈…〉 Church of Rome's pretensions are just should not fear to have the Grounds of them examined but suppose they will be found strong and impregnable How comes it to pass then that M. de Condom was pleased to pass by so fundamental a Question And how could be satisfy himself with barely propounding his definition and saying only that This was what all Christians understand by the name of a Church However I shall be bold to say that this is neither all nor indeed the main part of what Christians do or ought to understand by it and that his definition is defective by at least one half to which therefore I shall oppose another which I assert to be what all Christians ought to understand by the name of Church viz. A Society of such persons as making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ do truly and effectually believe it and making profession to govern themselves by his word do really and effectually govern themselves by it Our business now is to know which of these two is a good and lawful definition whether that given us by M. de Condom in agreement with the Doctors of his Communion or this of mine in agreement with all Protestants That is to say we are concerned to know whether the nature and essence of the Church consist barely in externals and appearances or whether something of reality be not required whether Hypocrisy and superficial Cheats can make men true members of the Church or whether something of truth be not necessary also to know whether wicked men worldlings and reprobates provided they make an outward profession and can but dissemble handsomely are real members of Christ's mystical body or whether this priviledge do not belong to those that are truly the Faithful Here lies the pinch of the Question which in my opinion would have resolved it self had but M. de Condom propounded it fairly For methinks 't is very hard to acquiesce so far in his definition But not to insist on this first prejudice let us examine the matter throughly I. The Scripture represents the Church to us as the product and execution of God's eternal decree of Predestination or Election and besides it teaches us that God in electing and predestinating men does it not to a mere outward profession of Faith and Holiness but to an effectual Faith and true Holiness And consequently effectual Faith and Holiness are of the nature and essence of the Church and not an outward profession only The consequence is manifest For the best way to discover the nature and essence of any thing is to take it according to its own Author's first Idea and design supposing that he does not as we are all agreed God does not swerve at all from his design in the execution of it The Church then being God's own work the surest means to discern what that is will be to inform our selves of God's design if we can but find out that Now this we find in the Election Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ says St. Paul in the name of the whole Church who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world And a little after He gathers together in one all things in Christ both which are in heaven and which are in earth even in him In whom we have obtain'd an inheritance being predestinated according to the purpose of him c. To this relates that saying of Christ I pray not for the world but for them which thou hast given me for they are thine Where by opposing the world for which he does not pray to those whom his father had given him 't is plain he understands the Church and his meaning is that the Father hath given them to Jesus Christ because it was his by his purpose of Election This appears further from the words that immediately follow And all mine are thine and thine are mine for this mutual reciprocation of Good between his Father and Him if I may so term it is capable of no other sense but this in the sequel of his discourse My Church are thine Elect and thy Elect are my Church they who are mine as my people are thine as thy Elect my Communion and thy Election have the same measures the same extent and do both comprehend the same persons So that the Election is nothing else but God's design and project of the Church and the constituting of a Church is the putting that design of Election in Execution Blessed says David is the man whom thou chusest and causest to approach unto thee that he may dwell in thy courts These Courts are the Church of God and men enter into them only by vertue of God's Election God hath saved us says the Apostle and called us with an holy calling not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began We must therefore come to the knowledg of the Church by his Eternal purpose and to know that we must consult his Holy Word He hath chosen us says St. Paul that we should be holy and without blame before him in love Having predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself and that we should be to the praise of the glory of his grace He does not say a bare profession of Holiness but a real Holiness he does not say an appearance of adoption but a true adoption he does not say an external conversion but an internal That is such as may illustrate the glory of God God hath predestinated us to a true Faith and not an appearance of Faith to a sincere and substantial Regeneration not to a shadow or colour of it 'T is past a doubt then that a mere outward profession cannot give us a full definition of the Church but true Faith and Regeneration are necessary parts of the Idea we have of it II. The Scripture when speaking of the Church with reference to God gives it such appellations as can by no means be restrain'd to a more profession or allow us to think it can be composed of wicked persons It calls the Church Jerusalem which is above the Heavenly Jerusalem the City of the living God the Holy Hill of Sion the Israel of God A Holy Nation a peculiar people the inheritance of God the habitation of God through the spirit the house of God the temple of God His holy Priesthood His spiritual house His royal Priesthood His purchased possession the people of God Tell me now I pray if the energy of these expressions is not admirably answered by

perswasion of Charity and Equity for we ought always to presume the best of such Assemblies and hope that God will preside over them and that they will acquit themselves of their duty till experience shews the contrary But all this does not imply so entire a submission as for a Man to deprive himself of all right to examine their Resolutions As to that Act which condemns the Independents it is said he extreamly Just For tho Assemblies do not arrive at an Infallibility yet are not they presently to be utterly abolished 'T is a human Order indeed but yet such an Order as God himself hath settled for the preservation of his Church and to desert it therefore is criminal And yet we do not think it follows from hence that the determinations of the Assemblies exact a blind and implicit Obedience nor that the Synod of Charenton intended any such thing And then for the Synod at Saintefoy's deputing four persons to confer with those of the Ausburg Confession and the full power given them you can make no advantage of it For those Deputies were in the nature of Ambassadors who are sent by the King with full Commission to offer Proposals hold Treaties and agree upon Conclusions or as Plenipotentiaries sent to negotiate a Peace Let their power be never so full or call them Plenipotentiaries as long as you please still this condition is constantly and naturally understood that they do nothing against the interest of the persons that commissioned them and to these their Acts must of necessity return for the obtaining their approbation and ratification without which their Treatings would signify nothing at all And this was the meaning of that full power conferr'd by the Synod upon their Deputies to hear those of the Confession of Ausburg to hearken to their Proposals their Complaints their Offers and in return to make others to them to receive from them Explications of difficulties in Controversy and to give them back theirs nay to come to an agreement with them if they could yet not so as either to become absolute Masters of their Faith or blindly receive whatever they should agree upon For in all affairs of this kind there is naturally implied a Clause of recurring to the Judgment of the persons Commissioning and a necessity of their ratifying them Mr. Claude added besides this Consideration Suppose the true sense of an Act of the Church of Rome were called in Question a Canon of the Council of Trent for instance M. de Condom would think it more reasonable that the sence should be taken from him than Mr. Claude because the Question is put concerning the sense of a Church that M. de Condom is a Member of and therefore in all probability he must understand it better than one of another Church Therefore Sir said he I expect the same Justice from you in taking the sense of these Acts now in Dispute from me provided the sense I put upon them do not disagree with the Doctors of my Communion or be not manifestly false and contradictory to the rest of our Principles Now if the sense I put upon these Acts be not any of these you have not in my opinion any right to refuse it or to frame to your self any other different from it M. de Condom replied saying that he would begin where Mr. Claude left off because that what he had urged just before carried some appearance of Truth and made a quick impression upon the mind but had not really any thing of solid Argument in it That were the matter in hand any Explication of their particular Rites and Ceremonies in Preaching the Word and Administring the Sacraments what Mr. Claude said might be allowed for Truth and in that point he would believe him as a person better acquainted with the matter Nay that he did not go about to debar him the liberty of explaining the sense of those that compiled the Discipline and the forementioned Acts after his own way That he was sensible they denied an entire submission to the Church and such as precludes all Examination But this he would say that the very men who denied this absolute submission in Speculation were forced to own and establish it in their practice That so they contradicted themselves and that this was the thing he pretended to prove and in which he was by no means bound to believe Mr. Claude For if the matter in hand now were to demonstrate any Contradictions in the opinions of the Catholick Church he would not desire that His Explications might be thought of Authority sufficient nor deny Mr. Claude the freedom of making what inferences he thought fit from the Council's own words M. de Condom stopping there Mr. Claude replied That since it was evident that the persons who made those Acts denied any submission was due to the determinations of Church-Assemblies without any Examination at all the advantage was thus far at least on his side that M. de Condom himself had acknowledged His Explanation of those Acts was agreeable with the Principles of the Protestants which made them so that there was more reason for his accepting that sense than for the framing to himself another and such a one as contradicted these Principles That supposing the business in Controversy to be an Act of the Romish Church he should not scruple to admit M. de Condom's explanation provided the words of the Act did not oppose it and in that case he might be allowed to infer a Contradiction That if M. de Condom would proceed thus as to the Acts before urged he should be glad to see what grounds he had for this pretended Contradiction M. de Condom said this would easily be made appear That he would show this Contradiction with relation to their Discipline which on one side ordains That differences in Doctrine should be decided in the Consistory by the Word of God that it was also her meaning that this decision was made by the Word of God in the Provincial Synod as well as the National and yet on the other side if men do not acquiesce in the determination of a Consistory or a Provincial Synod it orders things should continue as they were till a National one be convened in which it says a full and final resolution shall be given by the Word of God and if they submit not to this they shall be cut off from the Church Whence it is evident that the submission required to a National Synod was not founded on the Word of God considered abstractedly as such because both Consistory and Provincial Synod were supposed to determine by the Word of God and yet an Appeal from them was allow'd But that it was founded on the Word of God so far forth as That was explained and interpreted by the last judgment of the Church that is because this is the last and final resolution and consequently upon the Authority of the Assembly considered by it self Now this said he