Communion of Christs visible Church and by that separation became guilty of Schisme And that they are properly Schismatiques cleerely followeth from the grounds which we haue layed concerning the nature of Schisme which consists in leauing the externall Cummunion of the visible Church of Christ our Lord and it is cleere by euidence of fact that Luther and his followers forsooke the Communion of that Ancient Church For they did not so much as pretend to ioyne with any Congregation which had a being before their time for they would needs conceiue that no visible Company was free from errours in doctrine and corruption in practise And therfore they opposed the doctrine they withdrew their obedience from the Prelates they left participation in Sacraments they changed the Liturgy of publique seruice of whatsoeuer Church then extant And these things they pretended to do out of a perswasion that they were bound forsooth in conscience so to do vnlesse they would participate with errors corruptions superstitions We dare not sayth D. Potter communicate (a) pag. 68. with Rome either in her publique Liturgy which is manifestly polluted with grosse superstition c. or in those corrupt and vngrounded opinions which she hath added to the Fayth of Catholiques But now let D. Potter tell me with what visible Church extant before Luther he would haue aduentured to communicate in her publique Liturgy and Doctrine since he durst not communicate with Rome He will not be able to assigne any euen with any litle colour of common sense If then they departed from all visible Communities professing Christ it followeth that they also left the Communion of the true visible Church which soeuer it was whether that of Rome or any other of which Point I do not for the present dispute Yea this the Lutherans do not only acknowledge but proue and brag of If sayth a learned Lutheran there had been right (b) Georgius Minus in Augustan Confess art 7. de Eccles pag. 137. belieuers which went before Luther in his office there had then been no need of a Lutheran Reformation Another affirmeth it to be ridiculous to thinke that in the time (c) Benedict Morgēstern tract de Eccles pag. 145. before Luther any had the purity of Doctrine and that Luther should receiue it from them and not they from Luther Another speaketh roundly and sayth it is impudency to say that many learned men (d) Conrad Schlusselb in Theolog. Caluinist lib. 2. Jol. 130. in Gormany before Luther did hold the Doctrine of the Gospell And I add That far greater impudency it were to affirme that Germany did not agree with the rest of Europe and other Christian Catholique Nations and consequently that it is the greatest impudency to deny that he departed from the Communion of the visible Catholique Church spread ouer the whole world We haue heard Caluin saying of Protestants in generall We were euen forced (e) Ep. 141. to make a separation from the whole world And Luther of himself in particular In the beginning (f) In praefar operum suorum I was alone Ergo say I by your good leaue you were at least a Schismatique deuided from the Ancient Church and a member of no new Church For no sole man can constitute a Church thogh he could yet such a Church could not be that glorious company of whose number greatnesse and amplitude so much hath been spoken both in the old Testament in the New 13. D. Potter endeauours to auoide this euident Argumēt by diuers euasions but by the confutation thereof I will with Gods holy assistance take occasion euen out of his owne Answers and grounds to bring vnanswerable reasons to conuince them of Schisme 14. His chiefe Answere is That they haue not left the Church but her Corruptions 15. I reply This answere may be giuen eyther by those furious people who teach that those abuses and corruptions in the Church were so enormous that they could not stand with the nature or being of a true Church of Christ Or else by those other more calme Protestants who affirme that those errours did not destroy the being but only deforme the beauty of the Church Against both these sorts of men I may fitly vse that vnanswerable Dilemma which S. Augustine brings against the Donatists in these concluding words Tell me whether the (g) Lib. 2. cont epist. Gaudent c. ◠Church at that tyme when you say she entertayned those who were guilty of all crimes by the contagion of those sinnefull persons perished or perished not Answere whether the Church perished or perished not Make choyce of what you thinke If then she perished what Church brought forth Donatus we may say Luther But if she could not perish because so many were incorporated into her without Baptisme that is without a secōd baptisme or rebaptization I may say without Luthers reformation answere me I pray you what madnes did moue the Sect of Donatus to separate themselues from her vpō pretence to auoid the Cōmunion of bad men I beseech the Reader to pōder euery one of S. Augustine words to consider whether anything could haue been spoken more directly against Luther his followers of what sort soeuer 16. And now to answere more in particular I say to those who teach that the visible Church of Christ perished for many Ages that I can easily affoard them the courtesy to free them from meere Schisme but all men touched with any sparke of zeale to vindicate the wisedome and Goodnes of our Sauiour from blasphemous iniury cannot choose but belieue and proclaime them to be superlatiue Arch-heretiques Neuertheles if they will needs haue the honour of Singularity and desire to be both formall Heretiques properly Schismatiques I will tell them that while they dreame of an inuisible Church of men which agreed with them in Fayth they will vpon due reflection find themselues to be Schismatiques from those corporeal Angels or inuisible men because they held external Communion with the visible Church of those times the outward Cōmunion of which visible Church these moderne hot-spurs forsaking were therby diuided frō the outward Communion of their hidden Brethren so are Separatists from the external Communion of them with whome they agree in fayth which is Schisme in the most formall and proper signification thereof Moreouer according to D. Potter these boysterous Creatures are properly Schismatiques For the reason why he thinks himselfe and such as he is to be cleared from Schisme notwithstanding their diuision from the Roman Church is because according to his Diuinity the property of (h) Pag. 76. Schisme is witnesse the Donatists and Luciferians to cut off from the Body of Christ and the hope of Saluation the Church from which it separats But those Protestants of whome we now speake cut of from the Body of Christ and the hope of Saluation the Church from which they separated themselues and they doe it directly as
vs. And Our of you shall (d) Act. 203.30 arise men speaking peruerse things And accordingly Vincentius Lyrinensis sayth Who euer (e) Lib. ad uersus haer cap. 34. began heresies who did not first separate himselfe from the Vniuersality Antiquity and Consent of the Catholique Church But it is manifest that when Luther appeared there was no visible Church distinct from the Roman out of which she could depart as it is likewise well knowne that Luther his followers departed out of her Therfore she is no way lyable to this Marke of Heresy but Protestants cannot possibly auoid it To this purpose S. Prosper hath these pithy words A Christian communicating (f) Dimid temp cap. 5. with the vniuersall Church is a Catholique and he who is diuided from her is an Heretique and Antichrist But Luther in his first Reformation could not communicate with the visible Catholique Church of those times because he began his Reformation by opposing the supposed Errors of the then visible Church we must therfore say with S. Prosper that he was an Heretique c. Which likewise is no lesse cleerly proued out of S. Cyprian saying Not we (g) Lib. de Vnit Ecles departed from them but they from vs and since Heresies and Schismes are bred afterwards while they make to themselues diuers Conuenticles they haue forsaken the head and origen of Truth 19 And that we might not remaine doubtfull what separation it is which is the marke of Heresy the ancient Fathers tel vs more in particular that it is from the Church of Rome as it is the Sea of Peter And therfore D. Potter need not to be so hot with vs because we say writ that the Church of Rome in that sense as she is the Mother Church of all others and with which all the rest agree is truly callled the Catholique Church S. Hierome writing to Pope Damasus sayth I am in the Communion (h) Ep. 57. ad Damas of the Chayre of Peter I know that the Church is built vpon that Rocke Whoseuer shall eate the LaÌ„be out of this house he is profane If any shall not be in the Arke of Noe he shall perish in the tyme of the deluge Whosoeuer doth not gather with thee doth scatter that is he that is not of Christ is of Antichrist And els where 's Which doth he (i) Lib. 1. Apolog call his fayth That of the Roman Church Or that which is contained in the Bookes of Origen If he answere the Roman then we are Catholiques who haue translated nothing of the error of Origen And yet further Know thou that the (k) Ibid. lib. 3. Roman fayth commended by the voyce of the Apostle doth not receiue these delusions though an Angell should denounce otherwise then it hath once been preached S. Ambrose recounting how his Brother Satyrus inquiring for a Church wherin to giue thanks for his deliuery from Shipwrack sayth he called vnto him (l) De obitu Satyris fratri the Bishop neither did he esteeme any fauour to be true except that of the true fayth and he asked of him whether he agreed with the Catholique Bishops that is with the Roman Church And hauing vnderstood that he was a Schismatique that is separated from the Roman Church he abstained from communicating with him Where we see the priuiledge of the Roman Church confirmed both by word and deed by doctrine and practise And the same Saint sayth of the Roman Church From thence the Rights (m) lib. 1. ep 4. ad Jmperatores of Venerable Communion do flow to all S. Cyprian sayth They are bold (n) Epist. 55. ad Cornel. to saile to the Chaire of Peter and to the principall Church from whence Priestly Vnity hath sprung Neither do they consider that they are Romans whose Fayth was commended by the preaching of the Apostle to whom falshood cannot haue accesse Where we see this holy Father ioynes together the principall Church and the Chaire of Peter and affirmeth that falshood not only hath not had but cannot haue accesse to that Sea And else where Thou wrotest that I should send (o) Epist 52. a Coppy of the same letters to Cornelius our Collegue that laying aside all solicitude he might now be assured that thou didst Communicate with him that is with the Catholique Church What thinke you M. Doctor of these words Is it so strang a thing to take for one and the same thing to communicate with the Church Pope of Rome and to communicate with the Catholique Church S. Irenaeus sayth Because it were long to number the successions of all Churches (p) Lib. 3. çont haer c. 3. we declaring the Tradition and fayth preached to men and comming to vs by Tradition of the most great most ancient and most knowne Church founded by the two most glorious Apostles Peter and Paul which Tradition it hath from the Apostles comming to vs by succession of Bishops We confound all those who any way either by cuill complacence of themselues or vaine glory or by blindnes or ill Opinion do gather otherwise then they ought For to this Church for a more powerfull Principality it is necessary that all Churches resort that is all faythfull people of what place soeuer in which Roman Church the Tradition which is from the Apostles hath alwayes been conserued from those who are euery where S. Augustin sayth It griâ—â—ues vs (q) In psal cont partâ—â—n Donati to see you so to ly cut off Number the Priest euen from the Sea of Peter and consider in that order of Fathers who succeeded to whome She is the Rook which the proud Gates of Hell do not ouâ—rcome And in another place speaking of Cacilianu he sayth He might contemne the conspiring (r) Ep. 162. multitude of his Enemies because he knew himselfe to be vnited by Communicatory letters both to the Roman Church in which the Principality of the Sea Apostolique did alwayes florish and to other Countreys from whence the Gospell came first into Africa Ancient Tertullian sayth If thou be neere Italy thou hast Rome whose (s) Praeser cap. 36. Authority is neere at hand to vs a happy Church into which the Apostles haue powred all Doctrine together with their bloud S. Basill in a letter to the Bishop of Rome sayth In very deed that which was giuen (t) Epist. ad Pont. Rom. by our Lord to thy Piety is worthy of that most excellent voyce which proclaymed thee Blessed to wit that thou maist discerne betwixt that which is counterfeit and that which is lawfull and pure and without any diminution mayest preach the Fayth of our Ancestors Maximianus Bishop of Constantinople about twelue hundred yeares agoe said All the bounds of the earth who haue sincerely acknowledged our Lord and Catholiques through the whole world professing the true Faith looke vpon the power of the Bishop of Rome as vpon the sunne c. For the Creator of the
the Church of their tymes for it seemeth you doubt whether indeed it were composed by the Apostles themselues did vnderstand the Apostles aright that the Church of their tymes did intend that the Creed should containe all fundamentall points For if the Church may erre in points not fundamentall may she not also erre in the particulers which I haue specifyed Can you shew it to be a fundamentall point of fayth that the Apostles intended to cōprize all points of fayth necessary to Saluation in the Creed Your selfe say no more then that it is very (d) pag. 241. probable which is farre from reaching to a fundamentall point of fayth Your probability is grounded vpon the Iudgment of Antiquity and euen of the Roman Doctours as you say in the same place But if the Catholique Church may erre what certainty can you expect from Antiquity or Doctours Scripture is your totall Rule of fayth Cite therefore some Text of Scripture to proue that the Apostles or the Church of their tymes composed the Creed and composed it with a purpose that it shonld contayne all fundamentall points of fayth Which being impossible to be done you must for the Creed it selfe rely vpon the infallibility of the Church 4. Moreouer the Creed consisteth not so much in the words as in their sense and meaning All such as pretend to the name of Christians recite the Creed yet many haue erred fundamentally as well against the Articles of the Creed as other points of faith It is then very friuolous to say the Creed containes all fundamentall points without specifying both in what sense the Articles of the Creed be true and also in what true sense they be fundamental For both these taskes you are to performe who teach that all truth is not fundamentall you do but delude the ignorant when you say that the Creed taken in a Catholique (e) pag. 216. sense comprehendeth all points fundamentall because with you all Catholique sense is not fundamentall for so it were necessary to saluation that all Christians should know the whole Scripture wherin euery least point hath a Catholique sense Or if by Catholique sense you vnderstand that sense which is so vniuersally to be knowne and belieued by all that whosoeuer failes therein cannot be saued you trifle and say no more then this All points of the Creed in a sense necessary to saluation are necessary to saluation Or All points fundamentall are fundamentall After this manner it were an easy thing to make many true Prognostications by saying it will certainely raine when it raineth You say the Creed (f) pag. 216. was opened and explaned in some parts in the Creeds of Nice c. but how shall we vnderstand the other parts not explaned in those Creeds 5. For what Article in the Creed is more fundamentall or may seeme more cleere then that wherin we belieue IESVS-CHRIST to be the Mediatour Redeemer and Sauiour of mankind and the founder and foundation of a Catholique Church expressed in the Creed And yet about this Article how many different doctrines are there not only of old Heretiques as Arius Nestorius Eutiches c. but also of Protestants partly against Catholiques and partly against one another For the said maine Article of Christ's being the only Sauiour of the world c. according to different senses of disagreeing Sects doth inuolue these and many other such questions That Faith in IESVS-CHRIST doth iustify alone That Sacraments haue no efficiency in Iustification That Baptisme doth not auaile Infants for saluation vnlesse they haue an Act of faith That there is no Sacerdotall Absolution from sinnes That good works proceeding from God's grace are not meritorious That there can be no Satisfaction for the temporall punishment due to sinne after the guilt or offence is pardoned No Purgatory No Prayers for the dead No Sacrifice of the Masse No Inuocation No Mediation or intercession of Saints No inherent Iustice No supreme Pastor yea no Bishop by diuine Ordinance No Reall presence no Transubstantiation with diuers others And why Because forsooth these Doctrines derogate from the Titles of Mediator Redeemer Aduocate Foundation c. Yea and are against the truth of our Sauiours humane nature if we belieue diuers Protestants writing against Transubstantiation Let then any iudicious man consider whether Doctour Potter or others doe really satisfy when they send men to the Creed for a perfect Catalogue to distinguish points fundamentall from those which they say are not fundamentall If he will speake indeed to some purpose let him say This Article is vnderstood in this sense and in this sense it is fundamentall That other is to be vnder stood in such a meaning yet according to that meaning it is not so fundamentall but that men may disagree and deny it without damnation But it were no policy for any Protestant to deale so plainely 6. But to what end should we vse many arguments Euen your selfe are forced to limit your owne Doctrine and come to say that the Creed is a perfect Catalogue of fundamentall points taken as it was further opened and explained in some parts by occasion of emergent Horisies in the other Catholique Creeds of Nice Constantinople (g) pag. 216. Ephesus Chalcedon and Athanasius But this explication or restriction ouerthroweth your Assertion For as the Apostles Creed was not to vs a sufficient Catalogue till it was explained by the first Councell nor then till it was declared by another c. so now also as new Heresies may arise it will need particular explanation against such emergent errors and so it is not yet nor euer will be of it selfe alone a particular Catalogue sufficient to distinguish betwixt fundamentall and not fundamentall points 7. I come to the second part That the Creed doth not containe all maine and principall points of faith And to the end we may not striue about things either granted by vs both or nothing concerning the point in question I must premise these obseruations 8. First That it cannot be denied but that the Creed is most full and complete to that purpose for which the holy Apostles inspir'd by God meant that it should serue and in that māner as they did intend it which was not to comprehend all particular points of faith but such generall heads as were most befitting and requisite for preaching the faith of Christ to Iewes and Gentiles and might be briefly and compendiously set downe and easily learned and remembred And therfore in respect of Gentiles the Creed doth mētion God as Creator of all things and for both Iewes and Gentiles the Trinity the Messias and Sauiour his birth life death resurrection and glory from whom they were to hope remission of sinnes life euerlasting and by whose sacred Name they were to be distinguished from all other professions by being called Christians According to which purpose S. Thomas of Aquine (h) 2.2 g. 1. art 8. doth distinguish all the
deceased cannot stand with your meere Commemoration of Thankesgiuing or your Request for a perfect Consummation both which according to your doctrine concerne Martyrs no lesse then others The same difference is expressed by S. Cyprian saying It is one thing to be purged (f) Lib. 4. ep 2. alias epist. 52. after long torment for ones sinnes and to be long cleansed with the fire and another thing to haue wiped away all the sinnes by suffering S. Hierome sayth If Origen affirme that (g) Lib. 1. cont Pelagianos all Creatures endued with reason are not to be lost and granteth repentance to the Diuell what belongs that to vs who affirme that the Diuell and all his Officers and all sinneful and wicked men do eternally perish and that Christians if they be taken away in sinne are to be saued after punishments More Fathers may be seen in Bellarmine and other Catholique Writers These may suffice to shew what was that Beliefe Practise of the Church which Aërius opposed in his time as you do at this day 15. Lastly your owne Brethren beare witnes thus against you Caluin sayth More then a thousand three hundred (h) Instit. l. 3. c. 5. Sect. â—â— yeares ago it was a Custome to pray for the dead But I confesse they were all driuen into Error Bucer his words are Because (i) In his enarrat in sacra quatuor Euang. printed Basil 1536. in Matt. â— 12. almost from the beginning of the Church Prayers and Almes-deeds were offered for the dead that opinion which S. Augustine sets downe in his Enchiridio cap. 110. crept in by little little Neither ought we to deny that soules are released by the piety of their liuing friends when the Sacrifice of our Mediatour is offered for them c. Therfore I doubt not but that from hence arose that duty of Praying and offering Sacrifice for them Fulke speaketh plainely Aërius taught that Prayer for the dead (k) In his answer to a counterfeyt Cath. pag. 44. was vnprofitable as witnesseth both Epiphanius and Augustine which they count for an Errour He likewise acknowledgeth that Ambrose Chrysostome Augustine allowed Prayer for the dead That Tertullian Augustine Cyprian Hierome and a great many more do witnes that Prayer for the dead is the Tradition of the Apostles And that Fulke vnderstands these Fathers in the sense of satisfying for Temporall paines after this life I hope you will not deny For it is cleere by what we said out of him aboue Nay euen in the Communion Booke allowed and established by Act of Parlament in the second yeare of Edward the Sixth and printed in LoÌ„don by Edward Whitchurch Anno â—549 there is Prayer for the dead and in the yeare 1547. the first yeare of Edward the Sixth his raigne Stow recounts that on the 19. of Iune a Dirige was sung in euery parish Church in London for the French King late deceased and a Dirige was also sung in the Church of S. Paul in the same Citty on the next morrow the Archbishop of Canterbury assisted of eight Bishops all in rich miters other their Pontificalls did sing a Masse of Requiem And to say this by the way there is in the same Communion Booke offering vp of our Prayers by Angels as likewise in the first yeare of that Kings raigne Communion in One Kind in time of Necessity is approued as also in the Collection in English of Statutes c. the reason heerof is added because at that time the opinion of the Reall presence as the Collector sayth was not remoued from vs. Which ingenuous confession supposes that Communion in one kind cannot be disallowed if we belieue the reall presence because indeed the Body and Bloud of our Sauiour Christ is both vnder the species of bread and vnder the species of wine 16. You say the Ancient Church (n) Pag. 37. in her Liturgies remembred all those that slept in hope of the Resurrection of euer lasting lyfe and particularly the Patriarchs Prophets Apostles c. beseeching God to giue vnto them rest and to bring them at the Resurrection as you add to the place where the light of his countenance should shine vpon them for euermore 17. But reade (o) De Purg. lib. 1. cap. 9. Bellarmine and you shall find a farre different thing in the Greeke Liturgy of which S. Epiphanius makes mention whome you also cite in your Margent We offer Sacrifice to thee O Lord for all the Patriarchs Apostles Martyrs and especially for the most Blessed Mother of God And that the Sacrifice was offered for those Saints onely in Thankes-giuing the words following doe shew By whose Prayers O God looke vpon vs. But for other faythfull deceased the speach is altered thus And be mindfull of all the faythfull deceased who haue slept in hope of the Resurrection and grant them to rest where the light of thy Countenance is seene Which last words you vntruly applied to Patriarches c. and added at the Resurrection wheras they are referred only to other faithfull people for whom Sacrifice is offered that they may come to see the light of Gods Countenance euen before the Resurrection that is as soone as they haue satisfied for their sinnes And now how many wayes is the Greeke Liturgy repugnant to you It speakes of Sacrifice which you turne to Remembrance It speakes of some persons whom we intreate to pray for vs others for whom we pray It teacheth Prayers to Saints It teacheth that Saints do already enioy the Beatificall Vision and therfore that Sacrifice only of Thankes-giuing is offered for them And as for the latter Schismaticall and Hereticall Crecians although their Authority weigh not much yet euen they professed in the Councell of Florence that they belieued a Purgatory only denied that the soules were there tormented by fire teaching neuertheles that it was a darke place and full of paine and your owne (q) Vid Apol Prot. tract 1. Sect. 7. subd 12. at 11. Brethren Sparke Osiander and Crispinus affirme that about Prayer for the dead they conformed themselues to Rome And Sr. Edwin (r) In his relation c. Sands saith that the Greeke Church doth concur with Rome in the opinion of Transubstantiation in Praying to Saints in offering Sacrifices and Prayer for the dead Purgatory c. And a Treatise published by the Protestant Diuines of Wittemberge Anno 1584. intituled Acta Theologorum Wittembergensium c. affirmeth that the Greeke Church at this day belieues Inuocation of Saints and Prayer for the dead as heertofore I noted All which considered with what Modesty can you say The generall opinion of (t) Pag. 36. the Ancient Doctors Greeke and Latin downe almost to these last Ages was and is the opinion of the Greeke Church at this day that all the spirits of the Righteous deceased are in Abrahams bosome or in some outward Court of heauen c. And to mend the matter you
in one of the learned Tongues for weighty reasons which haue been learnedly set downe by our Catholique Writers And if nothing must be read but what the People yea learned men vnderstand you must giue ouer reading in publique euen in English diuers Psalmes of Dauid the Prophets the Apocalyps and other parts of Scriptures the sense and meaning wherof the people vnderstand no more then if they were read in Hebrew Nay to vnderstand the words and not the sense is not free from danger because they may by thē conceaue some errour as we daily see by the exāple of Sectaries in that vngracious creature who lately out of Scripture as he thought murthered his Mother and Brother for being cause of his Idolatry in kneeling at the Communion Happy had it beene both for him and a thousand more if the sacred Scriptures in English were not so common among them but were read with due circumspection and not without approbation of such as can iudge better of them then themselues And in very truth it seemes strange not only not safe but euen shamefull that for example the Bookes of Leuiticus and the Canticles besids many passages in other Bookes should he promiscuously made subiect to the vulgar eyes of sensual and vnmortifyed people who morally will be sure to make no other vse thereof then to hurt themselues together with the abusing prophaning so holy a thing as euery word of holy Scripture is in it selfe 9. Now to come to your other particulars we acknowledge and professe all Merits to be the gift of God and therfore they cannot withdraw vs from relying on him You cite Bellarmine saying It is safest not to trust (m) Pag. 73. to a mans owne Merits but wholy and solely to cast himselfe on the mercy of Iesus-Christ But doth Bellarmine say that it is safest to relye on Gods Mercy alone and to deny all Merits as Protestants do This indeed were to your purpose But let vs heare Bellarmine rightly cited It is sayth he most safe to place (n) De Justificat lib. 5. c. 7. § Sittertia propositio al our trust in the sole mercy Benignity of God Heere you stay But Bellarmine goes on and sayth I explicate my sayd Proposition for it is not to be so vnderstood as if a man with all his forces ought not to attend to good workes Or that we ought not to confide in them as if they were not true Iustice or could not vndergo the Iudgment of God for no wonder if Gods owne gifts as all our merits are may endure his examination but we only say that it is more safe as it were to forget our former Merits and to looke onely vpon the mercy of God Both because no man can without a reuelation certaynely know that he hath true merits or that he is to perseuere in them to the end And also because in this place of Temptation nothing is more easy then to conceyue Pride by the consideration of our good workes I leaue it therefore to any mans cōsideration what sincerity you haue vsed in alledging Bellarmine 10 In the last place you affirme that our doctrines are confessed (o) Pag. 13. Nouelties and you go about to proue it by a few instances all which being either nothing to the purpose or plainely mistaken or manifestly vntrue do excellently proue against your selfe how ancient our Religion is Your instance about the Popes infallibility is not to the purpose of prouing that the Roman Church teacheth any Nouelty For Bellarmine out of whom you cite a few Authours who teach that the Popes Decrees without a Councell are not infallible sayth That that Doctrine (p) De Rom. Pont. l. 4. ç. 1. is yet tolerated by the Church though he affirme it to be erroneous and the next degree to Heresy The same Answere serues for your other example concerning the Popes Authority aboue that of a Generall Councell of which Bellarmine sayth They are not properly Heretiques who hold the contrary but (q) De Concil l. 2. cap. 17. Denique Lateranense they cannot be excused from great temerity And you are not ignorāt but that euen those who defend these doctrines do vnanimously consent against you that the Pope is Head of the Church But I pray you what Consequence is it Some Authors deny or doubt of the Popes Infallibility or his Authority ouer a Generall Councell Ergo these doctrines are Nouelties May not priuate men be mikaken euen in doctrines which of themselues are most ancient as is knowne by experience in many Truths which both you and we maintaine For how many Bookes of Scripture were once doubted of by some which now your selues receiue as Canonicall Are you therfore Nouelists You ouerlash then when you say Aboue a thousand (r) Pag. 72. Edit 1. yeares after Christ the Popes iudgment was not esteemed infallible nor his authority aboue that of a generall Councell and especially when you cite Bellarmine to make good your sayings And your affirming out of Bellarmine de Indulg l. 2. c. 17. that Eugenius the 3. who began his Papacy 1145. was (s) Pag. 72. Edit 1. the first that granted Indulgences is a huge vntruth and falsification of Bellarmine who in that very place directly expresly purposely proues that other Popes before Eugenius granted Indulgences names them in particular Wheras you say that the Councels of Constance and Basil decreed the Councell to be aboue the Pope you might haue seene the Answere in Bellarmine in the same Booke which you (t) De Concil l 2. ç. 19. cite that these two Councels at that time were not lawfull Councels or sufficient to define any matters of Fayth 11. You say Many of them meaning Catholique Doctours yield also that Papall Indulgences are things vnknowne to all Antiquity And to proue this you alledge Bellarmine (u) De Indulg l. 2. ç. 27. who cites Durand S. Antoninus and Roffensis Neither do these three which you by I know not what figure call many say as you do that Indulgences are things vnknowne to all Antiquity but only for the first fiue hundred yeares as Bellarmine sayth in the place by you cited therfore you take to your selfe a strange priuiledge to multiply persons and enlarge tymes and yet these Authors do not deny Indulgences And as Bellarmine answeres We ought not to say that Indulgences are not indeed Ancient because two or three Catholiques haue not read of them in Ancient Authors And you may with greater shew deny diuers Bookes of Scripture which more then three Writers did not only say they were not receiued by Antiquity but did expresly reiect them As for the thing it selfe Bellarmine sheweth that Indulgences are no lesse ancient then the (y) Vbi supra ç. 3. beginning of the Church of Christ that your owne Protestants confesse that it is hard to know when they began which is a signe of Antiquity not of Nouelty