excludes no sort or condition of men There is neither Iew nor Greeke there is neither Bond nor Free there is neither Male nor Female for yee are all one in Christ Iesus saith the Apostle Gal. 3. 3. Thirdly in respect of time because it shall neuer cease nor faile but continue in one place or other vntill the last day according to that promise of our Sauiour that hee would be with vs alwayes euen vnto the end of the world Matth. 28. Thus you see modum essendi the manner of the Church Catholikes being but modus cognoscendi the manner of knowing it is more questionable for on it depends that great question of our dayes wherein the Iesuites so triumph concerning the perpetuitie and visibilitie of our Church in all Ages For our better progresse wherein wee are to note that a thing may bee knowne two manner of wayes Viz. 1. The one a priori that is by arguments drawne from causes or principles which force an assent to a thing though as yet one sees not the truth of the same by experience Thus from that principle in Philosophie that heauie things tend downewards to the center I know that a plummet of lead would fall to the center of the earth if no thicke or grosse body interposed it selfe although I neuer saw any conclusion or practice of the fame Thus from that principle in Diuinitie that there is a resurrection of the body I beleeue that who euer lye buried in their Sepulchres shall rise againe although mine eyes were neuer witnesses of any such resurrection 2. The other a posteriori that is by arguments drawn from the effects to the cause or by grounding ones knowledge and certaintie vpon the sense of an experiment as when one beleeues that the fire is hot because hee feeles it burne or that the Sea is salt because he tastes it brinish Both these haue their vses being rightly and with due circumspection applyed but they are not alwayes and in all subiects alike demonstratiue and therefore the question will bee which of them the Creed requires for the procuring of a firme beliefe and assent to this article of the Catholike Church I must confesse that arguments a posteriori that is from testimonies of men pointing out by name the Professors and vpholders of any Religion in all Ages is a great motiue and inducement to perswade that such a Religion is Catholike that is vniuersall in respect of place persons and time and that the Church professing such a Religion is of the like amplitude and antiquitie But yet this is not that modus cognoscendi that manner of knowing the true Church to be Catholike which is proper to the Creed or by which Faith cleaues vnto it and beleeues it as an article of saluation that manner of knowing it to be so is onely a priori by diuine principles that is by Gods promises made vnto it in the Scriptures where wee reade that of Christs Kingdome there shall be no end Psal 2. that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it Matth. 16. and that our Sauiour will continue with vs vnto the end Math. 28. these are the pedigrees of Christs Church by these it proues it selfe to be of an ancient stemme that it had noble Progenitors he which playes the Herald and points out the seuerall descents of her sonnes with their lots and portions in all Ages he may somewhat illustrate the Church Catholike he cannot strengthen or confirme it hee may bee a Thomas Didimus which will not beleeue vnlesse hee sees hee cannot bee any of those blessed of our Sauiour which see not and yet beleeue Ioh. 20. Now that the Catholicisme of the Church that is the vniuersalitie duration and perpetuitie thereof so farre as it enters the Creed is to bee knowne onely a priori by the promises made in the Scriptures vnto it and not a posteriori that is by instances shewing the visible Professors of the same in all Ages I shall not neede to trauaile farther then the Creed it selfe to make it good My first reason shall be drawne from the condition of the Church Catholike as it is an article of our Creed and as we say I beleeue the Catholike Church From whence I thus argue Whatsoeuer wee are to beleeue as an article of the Creed the same must bee endowed with these foure conditions The first that the proofe of it be perfect for otherwise if it prooue but in part it cannot suffice for an article of faith The second that the ground vpon which it depends be some diuine and infallible principle for otherwise it may create an opinion in one but it cannot beget a faith Thirdly that all those who are bound to beleeue it be capable of the manner of prouing it as Valentia requires in these cases And lastly that it bee not the obiect of sense For Faith saith the Apostle to the Hebrewes chap. 11. is the euidence of things not seene and Thom. Aquin. 2◠2◠q. 1. saith plainly vt fidei obiectum sit aliquod visum fieri non potest it cannot bee that the obiect of faith should bee any thing seene But the proofe of the vniuersalitie of the Church which is a posteriori by the seuerall visible Professors of the same first is no perfect proofe for it depends vpon the testimonie of Doctors whereof in some ages few haue written and those which haue written haue not written of all points so that their consent in diuers Articles is rather charitably presumed than certainely knowne Secondly it is no proofe depending vpon diuine and infallible principles but vpon the testimonie and credit of men who may erre and bee deceiued Thirdly it is not a proofe of which all men are capeable for it consists partly of the voluminous writings of Historians partly of the immense dictates of the Fathers partly of the perplexe and inextricable subtilties of the Schoole-men to which few haue time and meanes all not capacitie to attaine Lastly by demonstrating the vniuersality and perpetuitie of the Church from the visibilitie of it it makes the Church as Catholicke to bee the obiect of the sense and so by consequence makes it to bee no Article of Faith My second reason shal be drawen from the nature of the Church Catholick in it selfe and the incapability of it to be subiect to arguments a posteriori that is of sense visibility it being not properly or if properly yet not alwaies snfficiently visible for this purpose Forthe better vnderstāding wherof we must premise some distinctions touching the Church Catholicke The Catholicke Church may bee considered either in respect of its 1. Matter of which it is composed which are men 2. Forme In respect of its Matter so it may be taken either according to its full Latitude and extent excluding no time no places nor any condition of men or in a limited sense in respect of its parts and those considered not together but seuerally with relation to their proper
Credo Ecclesiam Sanctam Catholicam I beleeue the holy Catholike Church THE Authoritie Vniuersalitie and Visibilitie of the CHVRCH handled and discussed By EDWARD CHALONER Dr. in Diuinitie and Principall of ALBAN Hall in OXFORD LONDON Printed by William Stansby and are to bee sold in Pauls Church-yard at the signe of the Gray-Hound 1625. TO THE RIGHT HONORABLE WILLIAM Earle of PEMBROKE Lord HERBERT of Cardiffe Lord Par and Rosse of Kendall Lord Marmion and Saint Qâ—intin c. Lord Chamberlaine of his MAIESTIES Houshold Lord Warden of the Stanneries Knight of the most Noble Order of the Garter Chancellor of the Vniuersitie of Oxford And one of his Maiesties most Honorable Priuie Councell MY LORD THe first assault which was euer made vpon mankind appeared in the shape of a question for in that manner did the Serpent sett vpon Eue and the victorie then purchased hath euer since animated the Viperous brood of that arch-enemie to encounter the Church of God with the same engin Aristotles positiue formes of disputing sute not so well with their distempered materials as those of Socrates which conclude in Questions As it was at the building of Babel so is it now in Babylon their confounded language serues onely to aske and demand not to reply For what are the cryes of Rome which more frequently walke the streets and fill them with lowder clamours then those of London other then these Whereupon doe you lastly ground your beliefe How doe you know the Scriptures to be the Word of God Where was your Church in all ages If the Church of Rome professe not the same faith which anciently it did when did it alter or varie from her first integritie Argumentations of other natures are forbidden the Laytie vnder paine of curse this kinde onely of disputing by Questions is dispensed vnto the rudest by the prouerb which saith An Ideot may propound more in an houre then the learnedst in a Kingdome can resolue in a yeere Hauing therefore discoursed vpon these subiects partly in some Lectures had in a famous Metropolitan Church of this Kingdome where for a time abiding I aduentured to thrust in my Sickle into the Haruest of more worthy Labourers partly in my seuerall attendances vpon our late Soueraigne of happy Memorie and his Gracious Maiestie now being I presume in humble acknowledgment of your noble fauours conferred vpon me to present these my poore endeauours to your honourable protection beseeching your Lordship to passe a fauourable construction vpon my boldnesse and to accept of them as from him who is and alwayes will remayne Your Lordships humbly deuoted ED. CHALONER The Contents of the first Part of this Booke SECT I. THe Preface and partition of the ensuing subiect pag. 1. SECT II. What act of Faith is implyed in this Article of the Church and the errours of Romish Interpreters touching the same pag. 3. SECT III. The Romanists distractions touching the Church set downe in eight Gradations SECT IIII. The palpable abuse offered the Laytie by obtruding the Church vnto them as their soueraigne Iudge displayed by the present practice of the Iesuites pag. 26. SECT V. The obiections out of the Scriptures touching the Churches infallibilitie answered pag. 30. SECT VI. The obiection drawne from the question how wee may know the authoritie sense puritie and perfection of the Scriptures handled and resolued pag. 36. SECT VII The new sleights and deuices which the Iesuites vse in enforcing these arguments touching the Church and the Scriptures pag. 51. The Contents of the second Part. SECT I. THe first way whereby one may know the Church to bee Catholike or Vniuersall pag. 71. SECT II. The second way whereby one may know the Church to be Catholike or Vniuersall Together with an Application of the same to the present question of these times touching the existency of our Church in all Ages pag. 83. Errata Page 58. The â— which is in lin 7. ought to be in lin 14. ibid. lin 12. for obligation r. Religion ibid. lin 14. for but search r. but by search pag. 91. lin 19. for The fift r. The sixt Credo Ecclesiam Sanctam Catholicam I beleeue the holy Catholike Church SECT I. The Preface and partition of the ensuing subject THis parcell of the Creed how compendious soeuer it seems in wordes yet is it in signification so ample that if the Iesuites Comment exceedes not the Text this alone is an abridgement of Diuinitie this a Catechisme sufficient to engrosse the Layties whole studie and beliefe It is not a matter of small consequence to them which oppose names to things and triumph in the naked sounds of Church and Catholike whether you apparell the sense in any other furniture of Language then this they cannot reply as Demosthenes did to Aeschines wheÌ„ being vpbrayded with the improper vse of a word hee answered that the fortunes of Greece consisted not therein No in hoc sit a sum fortunae Romae in these Sillables the fortunes of Rome are entrench'd not the seuen Hils whereon shee is seated not her extended Wals whose auncient Tracts are almost enâ—omb'd with Age not her Castle of Saint Angelo are halfe so relied vpon by her as this single Article For why Shee hopes the Church will serue her for a Cittadle or Towre of defence Holynesse will colour her title and Catholicke will from all quarters furnish her with a voluminous Armie of ancient and experienced souldiers Howsoeuer therefore I am not able to vndertake this subiect either with that power or skill as those which haue preceded me in the same yet because as Rome was not built in a day so neither can shee bee surueied in an houre or as shee is the Beast with seuen heads and ten hornes resembling Hydra which as soone as Hercules had smitten off one head maintained the fight with another so there may remaine after those greater labours of others something for vs of succeeding times and ages to meete withall Be it as it will I shall not thinke my paines mispent if whilest others haue pared off an head my weaker strookes force her but so far as to shrinke in a horne But to leaue Prefaces and come to the handling of the point The words now read vnto you containing in them a matter of Faith and Beliefe doe present two thinges to our consideration Viz. 1. First the act of Faith in these words tacitely implied I beleeue 2. Secondly the obiect of this Faith the Church pourtraited and described by two properties Viz. 1. Sanctitie in that it is called Holy 2. Vnjuersalitie in that it is stiled Catholicke SECT II. What act of Faith is implied in this Article of the Church and the errours of Romish interpreters touching the same COncerning the acte of this faith I beleeue though it be not prefixed to the beginning of this Article as neither to the rest which follow it yet is it to be vnderstood the former I beleeue which precedes the Article of
euer since the time of our Sauiour vnto this present I doe beleeue with the same faith and vpon the same grounds that I beleeue the Catholike Church because I beleeue our Church of England to be a member of the Catholike and this I beleeue a priori that is for the promise sake made in the Scriptures that it shall bee so But where our Church was before Luther or who were the Professors of it euer since the time of our blessed Sauiour vntill this present is no part of my Creed There is not a syllable in it which inuites me to proceed that way Doe I say I beleeue the vniuersalitie of Christs Church and must my foundation be such onely as can breed in me but an opinion or naked hope doe I begin in Faith and with the Galathians must I end in the flesh that is with sense Doe I build with one hand a Church Catholike which cannot bee seene and with the other must I draw it in a Map or point it out to the eye Nay set the Church as Catholike aside and consider it but in her parts which consideration of it belongs not to the Creed yet in this sense also is the Church at sometimes so obscured that by our Aduersaries owne confession none but the prudent and wise are able to discerne it The Church is I confesse compared in the Reuelation to a woman clothed with the Sunne in Isaiah to a Citie built vpon an Hill and by the Fathers to the Moone the Sunne the Moone and a Hill are things most easie to be discerned yet we know this Sunne may be obscured with a Clowd an Hill may be hid with a mist and the Moone as Saint Austen in his 119. Epist alluding to the Church obserueth hath her wanes and eclipses in the time of her peregrination SECT II. The second way whereby one may know the Church to be Catholike or Vniuersall IF any should mistake me and thinke that pressing so earnestly the preeminencie of knowing the Church to be Catholike and Vniuersall a priori that is from the promises made vnto it in the Scriptures we doe suspect our proofs a posteriori from the Professors of our Religion in all Ages to be either none or weake let them know that we want not those who haue scored out varietie of sufficient paths to proceed this way also which howsoeuer they bee not like the testimonie of our Sauiour to beget a faith yet are they like the testimonie of the Samaritan woman to induce a credulitie For not to tyre you with large discourses which were to exceed my limits onely for satisfaction herein to the reasonable and impartiall Hearer let vs take along with vs these few considerations 1. The first that we are to distinguish betweene our affirmatiues that is such things as are purely affirmed by vs and our negatiues such as in whole or in part we denie betweene which there is a great difference to be made in all sciences For affirmatiue propositions onely are the proper parts and ingredients of a discipline Negatiues are admitted say Logicians not so much by way of Precept as of Cautell and of Commentaries to vindicate the other from misconstruction 2. The second that such affirmatiues of ours as are established by our Church of England at least such as concerne the foundation of faith haue beene in all ages professed by the Church of Rome it selfe For explication whereof we are to obserue that the Popes Arithmetick which he vseth in calculating the articles of faith is not substraction but addition what wee purely affirme the Popish writers for the most part doe affirme the same the difference is that they affirme somewhat more then wee doe They denie not so much that our affirmations are truth as that they say we affirme not all the truth wherevpon they vsually stile vs in their writings Negatiuists For example sake Wee agree on both sides the Scriptures to be the Rule of Faith the Bookes of the old Testament written in Hebrew to bee Canonicall that we are iustified by Faith that God hath made two receptacles for mens soules after death Heauen and Hell that God may bee worshipped in spirit without an Image that wee are to pray vnto God by Christ that there be two Sacraments that Christ is really receaued in the Lords Supper that Christ made one oblation of himselfe vpon the Crosse for the redemption propitiation and satisfaction for the sinnes of the whole world In a word where they take the Negatiue part as in with-holding the Cup from the Laytie forbidding the administration of the Sacraments in the vulgar tongue and restrayning the marriage of Priests yet euen in these they condescend vnto vs for the lawfulnesse of the things in themselues and in respect of the Law of God and oppose them onely in regard of their necessitie and conueniencie and for that the Church of Rome hath otherwise ordayned But see our affirmations content them not To the Scriptures they adde and equalize vnwritten Traditions To the Hebrew Canon the Apocrypha To Faith in the act of Iustification Workes To Heauen and Hell Purgatorie Limbus Patrum and Limbus Puerorum To the worship of God in spirit Images To prayer to God by Christ inuocation and intercession of Saints To Baptisme and the Lords Supper fiue other Sacraments To the realitie of Christ in the Sacrament his corporall presence To the sacrifice of Christ vpon the Crosse the sacrifice in the Masse with other like and these we denie 3. The third that our affirmations by the iudgement of the Church of Rome haue beene in all ages deemed sufficient to saluation so that our Negatiues take not away any doctrine the explicit beliefe whereof is absolutely necessarie For first in regard of knowledge the Schoolemen hold that much lesse is needfull to bee explicitly beleeued then what is contayned in our affirmations For whereas wee entertayne and embrace amongst our affirmatiue articles not onely the doctrine of the three Creedes but also sundrie other assertions as may appeare by the booke of Articles and Homilies established in our Church Albertus Magnus on the contrarie with Bonauenture Richardus and Durandus thinke that so much onely of the Creed is necessarie as the Church solemnizeth in her holidayes Thomas Aquinas Scotus Gabriel Biel and Pope Adrian the sixth which goe farther thinke it needfull to beleeue but the whole Creed and Alexander ab Hales which goes farthest thinkes that one need but adde to the Apostolicall Creed the Nicen and Athanasian to make a compleat beleeuer quanquam hoc nimis durum videtur though this seemes too hard an imposition saith Gregorie de Valentia in his third Tom. vpon Thom. 1. disp although one wade no farther therein then the proper sense and haue no great distinct knowledge of the matters Nay Bellarmine is so confident in this point that he sticks not to say that the Apostles themselues neuer vsed to preach openly
man faith also by consequence that Socrates is a substance that he is a liuing creature and that hee is reasonable because Man contaynes all these things in his nature So the Scripture saying that Christ hath a body saith by consequence that according to his humane condition he is finite and being finite hath a limited and bounded existencie and therefore cannot bee in many places at the same instant For arte in this is grounded vpon nature and in nature the immediate cause implyes the effect the species the genus the subject the properties the whole the parts one contrarie remooues the other so that these Maximes of Philosophie are but dilated verities being before contractedly contayned in the Letter and adde not any thing to the Scriptures fulnesse but onely are displayed by the vnderstanding facultie as the species and formes of an obiect are by a perspectiue glasse multiplyed and made more visible 3. If we presse them with the force and necessitie of our consequence they bid them demand of vs whether we cannot erre in the deducing of a Consequence if we say we cannot then to tell vs that we oppugne a doctrine of our owne which determineth that the Church may erre and if wee say wee may then they will them to aske vs how wee can build an article of faith vpon a Consequence which by our owne confession is fallible To which wee say first that a posse ad esse non valet argumentum from a possibilitie of erring to an actuall erring an argument will not follow Againe the necessitie of a Consequence depends not vpon the person of him which deduceth it but vpon the intrinsecall vnion and reall affinitie betweene the termes of the Antecedent and Consequent But lastly because they presse vs to shew how we can assure our selues that in this or that particular Consequence we doe not erre considering that there is no subiect wherein we do not acknowledge that we may erre Let me aske them againe how any of them can assure themselues that they know the meaning of the Church in any one article of faith considering that there is none of them in particular the Pope in his chaire excepted which may not by their owne Tenets mistake a word or misse-conceiue the Churches meaning Sure if this reason were of force wee should for the same Cause take away all certaintie of knowledge which comes by the sense which was the error of the Academikes and Pirrhonians For what sense is there which at sometimes by reason of the Medium Organ or Object is not lyable to erre and be deceiued But as Nature which Philosophers say is not defectiue in things necessarie hath for the remedying of these inconueniences endowed man with reason common notions and principles whereby hee is able to iudge of the due site habitude and disposition of things so the God of Nature which is also the God of Grace and knowes the necessitie of his children giues vnto them besides that portion of reason common notions and principles aboue-mentioned the spirit also of discretion for the spirituall man iudgeth all things 1. Cor. 2. So Saint Iohn These things haue I written vnto you concerning them that seduce you but the anointing which you haue receiued of him teacheth you all things 1. Ioh. 2. 26. 4. If the Consequence bee so euident that they cannot for shame denie it then they counsell them to aske vs where the Scripture saith in expresse termes that whatsoeuer followeth by euident and necessarie consequence from her Pages is an article of faith Where they hope to choake vs with an equiuocall acception of the word article For an article of faith is sometimes taken strictly for one of those verities which so neerly touch the foundation of faith that a man cannot be saued vnlesse he expresly know and beleeue it sometimes largely for any Catholike truth whatsoeuer If they take it in the former sense they fight with their owne shadowes for which of our men euer said that whatsoeuer followeth from the Scriptures by euident and necessarie consequence is in such manner and sense an article of faith But if they take it in the latter sense wee need not runne farre for Texts to proue that such consequences are articles of faith and require according to the nature of the subiect and euidence of the deduction a beliefe either explicit or implicit of them because that conclusions as I shewed before lye hid in their principles as a kernell in the shell and that consequences are materially in their premises and being in them are to be esteemed part of them and therefore he which is bound to an absolute beliefe of the one is bound also at least conditionally that is vpon the appearance of the euidence of the consequence to beleeue the other 5. If wee dispute syllogistically they bid them tell vs that not the Scriptures but Aristotle prescribes rules for syllogismes and that Aristotles rules cannot binde the faith As though syllogisticke formes were principall causes of the truth of things and not onely instruments whereby the Truth which was before and might otherwise by naturall Logick and the strength of the common apprehension be perceiued is made somewhat the more easie and apparant For many Conclusions follow necessarily in regard of the matter which are vicious in regard of the forme Galen inuented a fourth figure which others reiect And therefore wee build no more vpon Aristotle in matters of faith then an house is built vpon the Carpenters Hammer Square or Rule which are neither whole nor part of the building though otherwise they conduce thereunto as instruments 6. If wee stop their mouthes either with manifest Texts of Scripture or pregnant consequences then they bid them demand of vs Who shal be iudge Which is a peece of Sophistrie beyond the Deuils who being taken tardie by our Sauiour in misse-quoting places of Scripture forgot to aske the question Who shal be iudge This cauill is squint-eyed and lookes three wayes at once If we say the Holy Ghost then they vpbraid vs with flying to priuate spirits and making our selues Iudges in our owne cause If we say the Scriptures they reply that the Scriptures are not sufficient to execute the place being mute and wanting a voyce to declare which amongst many senses is their owne and if we say the Church then they conceiue the victorie to runne on their side and think we haue granted them their Conclusion But what if we make neither the one nor the other sitting alone to be this Iudge but acknowledge a Concurrency though not equall in all of them and that Concurrency though not to the enacting of the sentence as it is considered in se in it selfe yet to the publication of it quoad nos as it hath reference to vs What then shall become of these sequells And so it is indeed For howsoeuer we make one supreme Iudge in this high Court of Veritie yet wee doe not imagine
times and places In respect of its forme so likewise it hath sundrie considerations for the forme of it is Either 1. Internall which is the misticall vnion which the members thereof haue with Christ and through Christ one with another which vnion is wrought by faith 2. Externall which is the vniformity the parts haue one to another in the profession of the truth and the right administration of the Sacraments which truth and right administration wee say must be if not in all points whatsoeuer yet at least in all points fundamentall and necessarie to saluation Now to bring this home to my argument the Church Catholick of these foure wayes that it may be considered is not visible at all three wayes and the fourth it is not alwayes so clearely visible as that the visibilitie should serue for a note whereby to come to the knowledge of the vniuersalitie and perpetuitie of the Church It is not visible at all First in respect of its matter taken in the full Latitude thereof excluding no times no places nor any condition of men In which sense by the Tridentine catechismes owne confession it is taken in the Creed For nothing is visible which is not present I may remember times past or read of men absent or coniecture things to come but I can see onely those things which are present Secondly it is not visible at all in respect of its inward forme which is the misticall vnion of the members with Christ and one another wrought by faith for this is rooted in the heart and the heart of man God onely seeth Thirdly not in respect of its outward forme which as it enters the Creed is not onely an outward profession of a Doctrine or Discipline but a profession of the same vnder the notion of truth and that the Church in this sense is inuisible Gregorie de Valentia confesseth in his 3. Tom. vpon Thomas and 1. disput and Bellarmine in his 3. booke de Eccles and 15. chap. where he saith In Ecclesia aliquid videri aliquid credi videmus eum caelum hominum qui est Ecclesia sed quod isle caetus sit ipsa vera Christi Ecclesia non videmus sed credimus That is in the Church something is beleeued and something seene wee see that companie of men which is the Church but that this company is the true Church wee doe not see it but beleeue it Againe the Church considered in her most fauourable sense for the Papists that is according to her matter which are men and that againe in a limitted acception not as shee is taken in her Latitude and extent for the whole but in respect of her parts onely with reference to their proper times and places yet in this sense I say is not so cleerely visible at all times as to haue her visibilitie to serue for a note whereby to know it to be Catholicke and vniuersal For Not a sufficiens ac propria ad dignoscendum Ecclesiam omnino necesse est vt sit omni hominum generi atque conditioni accommodatum it is Gregorie de Valentia's own rule in the place aboue cited q. 1. punct 7. § 15. that is that for a sufficient and proper note to know the Church it is necessarie that the note bee fit for all sorts and conditions of men and that all men bee qualified and capable to discerne the Church by it But the Church euen in this sense by his owne confession in the 16. § is sometimes so tost with the flouds of error schismes and persecutions that to the vnskilfull and such as cannot prudently weigh the reasons of times and circumstances it is hard to bee knowne so that by consequence the Visibilitie of it is not alwaies so apparant vnto all sorts of men as to serue for a note or proofe of the Church as Catholicke To make our argument yet more pregnant let vs but aske where the Church was in the time that the Arrian heresie ouerspread and hee will tell you out of Hierom that the ship of it was almost sunke and out of Hilarie that it was then non in tectis exteriori pompa querenda sed potius in carceribus speluncis not to be sought for in buildings or outward pompe but in Prisons and Caues Aske Turrecremata and others where the Church was in the passion of our Sauiour and they will tell you that it remayned only in the Virgin Marie which they say is signified in the Church of Rome by the putting out of all the Tapers saue one onely in the celebration of the passion Nay Bellarmine though hee oppugnes this opinion of Turrecremata's the most hee can yet he is contented to concurre with Abulensis in this that howsoeuer the Apostles might beleeue yet he thinkes that the Virgin Mary onely had fidem explicitam an explicite beliefe of Christs resurrection without which the Apostle saith that our faith is vaine we are yet in our sinnes 1. Cor. 15. Now grant that the Apostles beleeued as well as Marie yet if their beliefe was but implicit their profession could not be visible idem est non esse non apparere it is all one not to bee and not to appeare in this case Nay aske Bellarmine but how the Church shall be in the dayes of Antichrist and he will answer in his third booke de Rom. Pont. and seuenth chap. that it is certaine the persecution then shall bee so great that all publike ceremonies of Religion and Sacrifices shall cease How vniustly then doe the Papists deale with vs in this question touching modum cognoscendi the manner of knowing the Church to bee Catholike that is vniuersall and perpetuall by tying vs to proue it a posteriori instancing who were the Professors who the Pastors what their Names where they abode in all Ages as if ignorance of a thing were a Cause sufficient to make it not to be or Gods promise were not a gage strong enough for such an incredulous generation as theirs is vnlesse there were Registers to shew how and in what manner he kept his word Certainly if God in his wisedome had thought these kinde of proofes necessarie for his Church hee would haue erected an Office and Officers for the purpose now hee hath giuen vs indeed his Royall promise that it shall be so but no promise hath he giuen that there shall be Scribes in all Ages to commit to writing the names and persons of those by whom it came to be so If therefore a Papist should in this manner question me Where was your Church before Luther or what Professors of your doctrine were there or what assemblies of men professing the same faith that you doe euer since the time of our Sauiour vntill this present I would thus answere him out of the Creed That the Church of which I am a member was before Luther that there were assemblies of men professing the same faith that I doe and that