Sess 3. cap. 1. Can. 1. body is in the sacrament Circūscriptiuè But your Trent Councell saith that the body of Christ is conteined in the sacrament of the Eucharist Wherfore although Luther had an opinion of a Real presence by himself which he could not tell how to expresse nor would haue any disputation about the maner yet in as much as he was farre from allowing your Popish charme whereby you worke your monstrous Transubstantiation nor helde any carnall eating neuer alleage Martin Luthers Real presence to giue countenance to your carnall presence The Apologie may well acknowledge him an excellent man sent of God to giue light to the world and yet not allow of his error in any thing neither will we say that euery wrong beliefe euen in matter of the sacrament bringeth damnation to a godly man otherwise holding the foundation And lastly Martine Luthers priuate opinion is no principle of our religion as you very well know PAPIST These things being so with what conscience can the Protestants iustlie exclaime against vs for defending a speciall confession of our sinnes absolution of the Priest the vse of Images and the picture of Christ crucified the holie ceremonies of oile and exorcisme copes and holie vestiments that Angels know our praiers and may be praied vnto that Christs soule descended into hell for the deliuerie of the holy Fathers that died before his sacred Passion the Real presence of Christ in the sacrament when as all these points either in expresse termes or by necessarie consequence be gathered out of the grounds of their owne Religion PROTESTANT These things being so that no one of the points mentioned is any principle of our Religion nor in any one of the points which we acknowledge do we agree with the Papists and the last of the seauen is none of ours with what conscience could a Papist go about to raise a reason for Popish idolatrie out of the principles of our religion in the end neither build vpon any principle of our Religion nor proue any agreement betweene Popish confession and absolution and that which the Church of England vseth betweene the signe of the Crosse as it is vsed in the Church of England and Popish Images betweene Godfathers and Abrenunciation and popish oile and exorcisme as now they are betweene the decencie of the Surples and the superstition of Popish vestemints betweene the doctrine of some Protestants touching the article of descending into hel Popish Limbus no nor yet betweene Martin Luthers Real presence and Popish carnal presence wheras no one of these Popish points can either in expresse terms or by any necessary cōsequēce be gathered either out of any principle orany practise or ceremonie in our religion as hath been shewed PAPIST The Fourth reason That is the true Church which hath the scriptures on their side and expoundeth them in that sense and meaning which was intended by the holie Ghost and none can deny but al this is verified of the Catholike Church and not of the Protestant as a fewe plaine arguments shall make manifest First therefore no reason in the world can the Protestants aleage to proue that the scriptures be theirs or to iustifie their interpretation which we cannot bring also for vs. For let them pretend conference of places recourse to the fountaines of the Greeker Hebrue or what else they will all that we can say for our selues and with a◠great probability as they and so in any iudgmet not palpablypartial we nothing inferior On the cōtoary we to maintaine our expositiō beside all other helps cite the consent of ancient Fathers the cōmon practise of Gods Church the decrees of generall Councels none of which they will stand to and therefore in all equity and reason wee passing much superiour can we then lacke the true sense of scripture that haue all these to backe our interpretation specially that of Gods Church in generall councels or can the Protestants haue it that be destitute of all these as their deniall of them doth euidentlie proue and conuince PROTESTANT This forcible Reasoner seemeth now as if he would come to vs and ioyne issue with vs to be tryed by the Scriptures whether the Popish Church or our Church be the true Church But surely if there be no more force in his reason then plainenes in his dealing this reason wil be like his fellowes and so proue neither forcible nor plaine For when the reckoning of his reason is cast vp he calleth backe the triall of the true Church from the scriptures to his pretended Fathers and Councels and againe from them to Gods Church that is in his meaning the Popish Church from whence all vseth to be deuolued to the Pope And so in conclusion the question being whether the Popish Church be the true Church we must be tried by the Pope who were much to blame if he would not say that his owne Church is the true Church for euen theeues will say that they are honest men Your owne Cannon law hath prouided that in all matters of faith all men yea euen all Bishops must referre themselues to the Pope Quoties c. As often as anie matter Caus 24. q. 1 of faith is debated I thinke that all our brethren and fellow Bishops ought to referre the matter to none but to Peter that is to the authoritie of his name and honour What is the authority of Peters name and honour but the Pope and therefore the Glosse there setteth downe in the margent It is the Popes office to determine a question moued about faith And Thomas Aquinas It belongeth to faith to sticke to the Popes determination Opuse con error Graec. it matters of faith yea and in those things also that belong to good manners If then in matter of faith or maners we cannot agree vpō sense of scripture the Pope must strike the stroke which he will be sure shall not hurt himselfe So very fitly agreeth vnto you that which Athanasius speaketh against Orat. 1. con Arria◠the Arrians They presume to determine of faith and being themselues guiltie and obnoxious to indgment like vnto Caiaphas they vsurpe the office of indging These are the men that will proue their Church to be the true Church by hauing the scriptures on their side but they will be the interpretors of scriptures by the mouth of their Pope Well go too though vnder the bare pretence of scriptures you meane to bring in the Pope yet let vs see how you proue that the popish Church which you falsly call the Catholike Church hath the scriptures on her side and expoundeth them by the sense intended by the holy Ghost Your first argument is onely a vaine brag Forsooth you can bring any reason for your expositiōs that the Protestāts can bring for theirs as conference of places recourse to the fountaines and what else they will and with as great probabilitie as they Why then do you not vse to follow
bookes when being compared to those which were trulie knowen to be Hippocrates his owne they were iudged to be vnlike and because they were not knowen to be trulie his at the same time when the rest of his writings came to be knowne So the ecclesiasticall writings of men are no otherwise knowen whose they were but because in the times wherein euerie one wrote them he acquainted and published them to whom he could and from thence by a continued knowledge from one to another and farther confirmed they cap. 9. came to their posteritie euen to our times In like maner he concludes of the holy Scriptures If you will follow the authoritie of the Scriptures which ought to be preferred before all other follow that which from the times of the verie presence of Christ by the dispensations of the Apostles hauing beene kept throughout the whole world came commended and famouslie knowen to our times By all which it is euident that Augustine meant not to make the Catholike Church of his time the author of his beleefe touching the Canonical Scriptures but the Catholike Church of the first times who came neerest to the writing and deliuerie of the Scriptures from the hands of the Apostles and the Apostolike men that wrote them for whose testimonie and commendations sake the Church succeeding is also beleeued What is this to the supposed Catholike church of our daies by which you meane the Popes kingdome when euen the true Catholike church of later times neither hath nor chalengeth to her selfe any credit in this matter but as she can porduce the testimonie of the Catholike church in the first times Lastly Augustine there saith Nisi me commoueret Ecclesiae authoritas He only ascribeth to the Churches authoritie that it is a motiue and the first motiue to induce an vnbeleeuing man to thinke well of the Scriptures but hee resteth not in this motiue Hauing thus begun he proceedeth after in searching the Scripture to finde by what spirit they were written and by the authority and teaching of that Spirit as the vndoubted word of God to embrace them not man now but God himselfe inwardlie strengthening and enlightening his â—inde as he is before alleadged What makes all this for the authoritie of the Popish falsly called Catholike church to lead mens consciences into captiuitie by her interpretations or determinations either of the Canonicall Scriptures or of their sense Nay what makes this for such authoritie as vnder the Churches title you would claime to depriue Christians of any better assurance either touching the Scriptures or their sense then it receiued from the authoritie of the Church that is of men no lesse subiect to errourthen themselues But you would faine knowe how the Protestants that beleeue nothing but Scripture can by Scripture prooue against Luther that S. Iames his Epistle is Canonicall Scripture Euen in like manner as wee can prooue S. Pauls Epistles and other Scriptures inspired of God to be Canonicall Scripture For thinke you that that Spirit by whose inspiration holy men of God wrote the Scriptures doth not still breath in the same Scriptures by meanes of which Spirit the word of God Hebr. 4. 12. liueth and is mightie in operation and by that speciall vertue differeth from humane writings yea euen those that are written of Scripture matters Either then you must diuide the Spirit from the Scriptures when Gods children reade it which you cannot doe without dishonour to the Scriptures or you must needes confesse that out of the Scriptures inspired of God Gods children doe sufficiently prooue vnto their owne consciences and against all gaine-sayers that the whole Scripture and euery part thereof is Canonicall that 1 Cor. 2. 4. is a souereigne rule to guide the Church in all points both concerning faith and maners For as the Apostles preaching so his writing and all Scripture inspired of God hath in it selfe plaine euidence of the spirit and of power that our faith should not be in the wisedome of men but in the power of God Thus out of S. Pauls Epistles wee can prooue S. Pauls Epistles to be Canonicall And out of S. Iames his Epistle wee can prooue S. Iames his Epistle to be Canonicall and generally the whole Scripture prooues it selfe to be Canonicall and from it selfe the Church receiueth receiueth witnesse of it selfe If you be ignorant of this it is because you haue not receiued of the annointing of that Spirit by whom the Scriptures were inspired And now cease any longer to disport your selfe with this carnall question out of what Scripture the Protestants can prooue S. Iames his Epistle to be Canonicall The sheepe of Christ doe knowe the shepheards voice and they knowe it not by report but by it selfe they discerne it To conclude because there is danger in expounding the Scriptures contrarie to the true sense intended by the holy Ghost albeit not equall danger as in refusing the holy Scripture indited by the holy Ghost as Augustine insinuateth Confess lib. 12. cap. 23. 24. as in the greater that is the approbation of Canonicall Scriptures wee dare not remit all to mens voices though they be the Church so in that wherein errours is lesse dangerous yet dangerous too that is in determining the true sense of Scriptures we dare not build our faith vpon the wisedome of men because as hath beene alleadged out of Augustne we haue learned of our Redeemer in â—â—llo hoâ—ike spem pouere to put no trust in any man but onely in the plaine euidence of the spirit that speaketh in the Scriptures which so long as we doe with faithfull prayer and humble submission to his teaching according to the promise they shall be all taught of God weare assured to be led into all truth Isa 54. 13. Iohn 6. 45. necessary to saluation which security the Papists that rest in mens authority can neuer haue PAPIST Seauenthly wittingly and willingly they corrupt the text of holy Scripture for example to make the people beleeue that images are vnlawfull in Tyndals translation where Idols be forbidden vsually the word Image is placed in steed thereof and therefore in S. Iohn we find it thus traÌ„slated Babes keep your selues froÌ„ images 1. Ioh. â— 21. And for triall we will appeale to their later Bibles printed by Christopher Barker for there we read thus Little children keepe your selues from Idols PROTESTANT Not to stand long in these points so sufficiently answered long agoe by Doctor Fulke against Martine and Doctor Whitaker against Reynolds both of worthy and blessed memorie first it is so plain that the Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth in the proprietie of the word signifie an image that Gregorie Martine neither can nor doth denie it Secondly as vse hath restrained the name Idoll from the generall signification to note onely wicked images and such as are abused to Gods dishonour so is it well knowen that both in vulgar and popular vse and also in the generall vnderstanding
also agreed that it must beare such a sense as may stand with the scripture and the analogie of faith then although we differ about the proper sense of the words yet differ we not about any matter of Faith as you do about originall sinne PAPIST Seeing therefore the Church of Christ continueth visible for â—uer as ours hath done and not theirs wee haue the auncient Fathers for patrones of our cause they be destitute of all antiquitie we haue the truth in many points according to their owne confessione and they consequentlie falshood wee haue the Scriptures and their true interpretation they onelie the bare name and priuate erroneous exposition I conclude that whosoeuer will be saued must not heare them but embrace our old Catholike Apostolike faith PROTESTANT The persons of all the members of the Church of Christ as men haue beene in their times visible are and shall be to the worlds end they haue beene also generally to some of their fellow members visiblie in their times as members of the body of Christ howbeit the visibility of Churches established and in their assemblies worshipping God in the word Sacraments and prayer they haue often wanted as in the Egyptian captiuitie the daies of Elias the captiuitie of Babylon the dispersion caused by Sauls persecution and vnder the ouer-spreading tyrannie of the Romish Antichrist driuing the woman that brought foorth the man-childe into Reuel 12. 13. 14 the wildernesse into a pâ—â—e prepared for her of God During which captiuitie of the Church in seuerall times either heathenish idolatry as in Egypt or Church idolatry as the golden calues and the seruice of Baal before and in the daies of Elias or carnal worship as among the Iewes in the dispersion afore-saide or meere Atheisme as vnder Sanballat and Tobijah or the mysterie of iniquity vnder the shew of pseudochristianitie as in the Apostasie of Antichrist hath borne the sway in the world as the onely Religion Such is the visibility of your Romish apostafie like the visibility of Ierobâ—ams calues of Baals Church of the Scribes and Pharisies and in pretence to build with the Iâ—wes that is the true Church of Christ semblant to Sanballat and Tobijah or at the beâ—â— to Eliashab their friend In this visibility you haue set foorth many goodly Pageants to dazell the eies of all those in whoÌ„ â—he God of this world hath blinded their eiâ—s that the light of the 2 Cor. 4. 3. 4. glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them as the state of Popes and Cardinals the Babylonish magnificence of your temples beset with sumptuous idols the stage play of your Masse with your whole Antichristian tyrannie which you haue vaunted to the world as the harlot her bedecked bed Prou. 7. 15. 17. with ornaments carpets and layes of Egypt perfumed with Mirrhe Aloes and Cinamon and like vnto the picture of Apoc. 17. 3. 4. 5. your Church the mother of whoredomes and abhominations that sitteth vpon a scarlet coloured beast and is arrayed in purple and scarlet and guided with gold and precious stones and pearles and hath a cup of gold in her hand full of abhominations and filthinesse of her fornications Of such visibility wee giue you leaue to boast and reioyce that wee haue no part with you in your glory least wee should also haue part with you in your plagues And albeit GOD hath graunted more visibility to our Churches then you can indure with patience to behold yet make wee not out of such visibility any demonstration that our Church is the true Church That faith that worship which by open confession and practise was visible in our Sauiour Christ and his blessed Apostles which in their holy writings inspired of God they haue deliuered to be seene read and vnderstood to be held and obserued of all the true Church of God is a demonstratiue and infallible visibility which wheresoeuer it is to be seene and discerned prooueth and conuinceth that they are the Church of Christ This is the onely visibility wherby the true Church is to be discerned and knowen which we haue often prooued and we hope is manifest to all mens consciences to be found in our Church and you shall neuer be able while the world standeth to make any sound proofe that your Church hath any such visibilitie but manifestly the contrary What patronage the auncient Fathers lend vnto your cause hath beene before shewed where you alleadged anie thing out of them and often hath beene further in all the fundamentall points wherein you â— dissent from vs and from the truth You imitate some rites twice dead and buried since they vsed them you are confident to affirme some things whereof they doubted you take vp their errors for principles of your faith you abuse and peruert their words and phrases to a contrarie meaning and in these onely as touching your Popish religion you follow the Fathers but their indicious testimonies touching the fundameÌ„tall points of Doctrine as originall sinne and the fruit therof concupiscence free will instification the vse of good workes the Sacraments and diuerse other points you will not see or else you peruert as the instable doe the Scriptures to their owne destruction 2. Pet. 3. 16. Compare what they write in one place with that which they write in another note the occasion marke the end discerne the aduersarie they haue to deale with consider the straine of their moued affections acknowledge their tropes and figures of speech you shall finde the Fathers to yeeld you but small helpe and to be but slender patrones of your apostasie on the contrary you shall perceiue that as wee haue the eldest antiquity for proofe whereof we cite the records of Scripture so haue wee the body of all consequent antiquity in all matters of faith touching the Deitie the Trinitie prouidence touching Christ his person natures offices mediation and our redemption by him touching the holie Ghost and his operation in the Church â—ouching the Catholike Church the communion of Saints and all necessarie parts thereof touching remission of sinnes touching the resurrection and eternall life In other matters if some where we varie from the Fathers as they varied one from another and some of them from themselues we haâ—e their leaues I haue before shewed you what difference Cont. Iulian. Pelag. lib 1. Augustine makes betweene Fundamenta fides Alia de quibus doctrissimi atque optimi Catholicae regulae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant betweene the Foundations of faith and other pointes whereabout the learned stayd best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree yelw â—hout impeachment to the frame of faith To your vaine pretence of our consent in any point of your Popish faith enough hath beene said before As for the Scriptures you haue them indeene and you keepe them so close that neither your selues wil search them as you ought nor suffer those that wold You banish the