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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A33981	The vindication of liturgies, lately published by Dr. Falkner, proved no vindication of the lawfulness, usefulness, and antiquity of set-forms of publick ministerial prayer to be generally used by, or imposed on all ministers, and consequently an answer to a book, intituled, A reasonable account why some pious nonconformists judge it sinful, for them to perform their ministerial acts in by the prescribed forms of others : wherein with an answer to what Dr. Falkner hath said in the book aforesaid, the original principles are discovered, from whence the different apprehensions of men in this point arise / by the author of the Reasonable account, and Supplement to it.	Collinges, John, 1623-1690.	1681 (1681)	Wing C5345; ESTC R37651	143,061	307

only further mentions Hymns and proveth the use of Hymns of Ecclesiastical composition from Pliny and Lucian no very competent Witnesses of the Christian Churches affairs The early use of the Lords Prayer is easily yielded him but it is a strange proof of a Form of Prayers composed by other Men and generally used or imposed to prove as p. 158 That they began in some Churches with the Lords Prayer and ended with the Hymns of many names which Mr. Gregory thought was the clause at the end of the Lords Prayer and he doth but guess it some other The Lords Prayer cometh not within our question be it a Form or not a Form 25. Whatsoever he saith à p. 160. ad p. 164. is rather ad pompam then ad pugnam it all referreth to the use of Forms of Prayers in the Jewish Church To it all I shall only add 2 things 1. It is very improbable and will appear so to every considerate Christian that we should have in Scripture a full account of the Jewish Church from its Cradle to its Tomb and so particular an Account of the way of Worship which God established amongst them from which they might not vary and they should have Forms of Prayers established for ordinary use and the Scripture not mention any thing of them we read in Scripture of other Books they had some of which are perished some preserved for our Instruction and Guidance We read of the Book of the Law many times but never of their Common Prayer Book nor of any person that used the 18 Prayers We read Nehemiah 8. That in a solemn day of Worship the whole Congregation met and called to Ezra for the Book of the Law he brings it they read in it from the Morning to Mid-day v. 1 2. After this we read of many Priests and Levites who read in the Book of the Law distinctly and gave the People the sense of it and made them to understand the reading thereof but we read not a word of their Book of Prayers either there or in any other part of Scripture We read in Luke that when our Saviour came into the Synagogue on the Sabbath day they brought him the Book of the Prophet Isaiah he read in it and preached out of it but neither there do we read of the Book of 18 Prayers brought forth I must confess that in ordinary cases it is not a good Argument That this or that thing was not in being or in use because there is no Sacred Record of the being or use of it But certainly concerning Gods Worship amongst the Jews it is a good Argument to prove there was no such thing established in their Worship because in the Holy Scriptures where we have the full story of that Church a full account of their Worship either by Moses or David so many charges to them not to add thereto nor to diminish there-from there is not any mention of a Book of publick Prayers which God directed for that Church we read only of a blessing which looketh like a Form tho some have been of another mind of Gods own directing tho we often read of the Book of the Law called for brought read in and often read of the Servants of God Praying publickly yet not the least mention is made of a Book or Forms by which they prayed Admit they had had Forms if God had prescribed them it had been out of our question who will freely allow God to prescribe his own Homage and Worship but to think that any of the Jews or the whole Sanhedrim had Authori●y to make any for universal use when God gave such punctual directions both to Moses for the Service of the Taberncale and all things therein and to David for the Service of the Temple that it is expresly said Exod. 39.42 3. That the very structure of the Tabernacle was according to all that the Lord commanded Moses and Deut. 4.2 there is so express a command You shall not add to the word which I command you nor shall you diminish from it which is repeated Deut. 12.32 and David saith 1 Chron. 28.11 12 13 19. All this the Lord made me to understand in Writing by his hand upon me v. 12. the pattern of all that he had by the Spirit When we read of Nadab and Abihu being struck dead Levit. 10. for but using ordinary fire in a Sacrifice and of Vzzah being struck dead for but touching the Ark when it shook in the New Cart it being Gods prescript that that Family of the Levites should carry the Ark on their shoulders Num. 4.15 7 9. I say after all this for any to go about to prove that the Jews in their Worship had Forms of Prayer not prescribed of God which their Ministers were bound to use and of which is no mention in Scripture is an undertaking fit for none but those who think they can prove Quidlibet e quolibet nor to be believed by any but such as are very credulous Our Vindicator saith their very Sacrifices were Rites of Supplications and as to them they were limited and used no such Variety Rites of Supplication and Supplications are two things and these Rites were limited by God not by the Sanhedrim I hope nor were they without some variety in them For his instance 2 Chron. 29.30 It is said They praised God with the Words of David and Asaph the Seer Asaph was a Prophet David told us he ordered nothing but by the Spirit of God what he understood by the hand of the Lord in writing upon him For Joel 2.17 which he quoteth surely Joel was divinely inspired nor is that Prayer surely of length enough for a whole Office nor was it more then a general direction for matter to be inlarged in words as the Jewish Minister thought fit For what Dr. Lightfoot Dr. Outram Scaliger Buxtorf Ainsworth tell us they have had their Intilligence from the Rabbies the eldest of which of whom we have any Record was saith Alstedius after the world was 3380 years old The Hierusalem Talmud was finished by R. Jochanan 250 years after Christ the Babilonian Talmud not till 500. The most of the Writings of their Rabbins saith Alsted appeared not to the World till 1000 years after Christ Now how competent Witnesses these are whose Books also are as full of Fables as leaves of the practice of the Jewish Church before Christ or in its incorrupt state let any judge who are men of sense 2. But admit it were a thing capable of proof that the Jews in their incorrupt times and that by Gods command ordinarily used Forms of Prayer in their Worship and that such as were neither prescribed by God nor any Prophet or Penman of Holy Writ or that in and about and since Christs time they have used such Forms of Prayer ought this to guide the Practice of the Christian Church Or will it prove that the same thing is lawful in the Christian Church I

be hindred Ergo. All the question here lieth upon the Minor The Answerer very honestly grants the Major he only saith there may be too great stress laid upon Zeal and Fervency but I hope not upon Holy Zeal if he looks back he will find himself acknowledging that which I said p. 43. 2. In his 75 p. he seems to fault my leaving Arguments and propounding three questions He hath no reason to be displeased at that considering he told us in his Introduction that it was acceptable to few but those who admired the Art of making Syllogisms And tho I judged a Prosyllogism containing the head of an Argument very reasonable to keep those that argue within their bounds yet in a Book I never thought following discourse reasonable to be tyed to those Forms My first question was VVhether it be possible for any to read any discourse with that degree of Attention of thoughts as he must pronounce the same with by heart It is manifest this Question was stated only with reference to the Attention of him that ministreth in the duty Our Answerer replies It is certain this may easily be done I am clearly of another mind considering 1. That there is not a wilder thing then Mans imaginative power nor its wildness at any time more seen then in Holy Duties Who is able to keep his thoughts fixed upon God and the matter of his Supplications for one quarter of an hour in Prayer The Lord Pardon me I cannot 2. While I am Reading by the help of my Eye Why a Man cannot read any thing with like Attention of thoughts as he may speak it by heart from his own Conceptions my thoughts are more at liberty to wander from what I am about then while I am speaking from the Conceptions of my own Heart I have an Eye to see and a Tongue to speak let my thoughts be where they will as to the main Operations of them after an habit of Reading once acquired they have no great business to do to help me to read right It is no great business for me to think how to sound those Letters which my Eyes have before them But while I speak from my own Conceptions my thoughts must attend my Tongue or I shall speak nothing but Nonsense This I did say and do say is to me next to a Demonstration onely I crave leave to make one term in the Question plainer by heart I meant by it from the Conceptions of his own heart and so let it stand or fall by any discreet Judgment 3. But saith our Answerer How usual is it to read the Scriptures and other Books with at great Attention as the same things can be spoken without Reading Attention to what To the matter he readeth I do doubt that I am sure a Mans thoughts in such Services are most inclinable to wander and be imployed about other things and I am sure they are more at liberty to wander Now considering both these things this possibility is confidering our imperfect state very questionable yet will it not follow that then we must not read the Scriptures but always recite them by heart because God hath made Reading of them our Duty As to this Question let all truly speak as they find I own the wildness of my heart in this thing 4. Our Answerer p. 77 78. comes to the Second Question which I propounded Whether any thing ean more conduce to fix the thoughts upon the Duty and upon God then when a man can trust his Affections to thrust out words Our Answerer saith That a Devout Sense of Gods presence and of his Purity c. may but he never considered that all these were pre-necessary to Pious Affections and without these the Affections are not rightly ordered for the duty The Question was Whether the Affections being rightly disposed their thrusting out words did not more conduce then any Form made by Men could to fix the thoughts Dr. Ames was of the opinion it did De Casibus Consc l. 4. 17. cap. qu. 4. the learned Author of Altare Damasc is of that mind in short I never met with any that denied it of necessity it must be so for there is no Medium betwixt such Affections and such words to divert or give scope of devagation to the thoughts For our Saviours repeating the same words in his Prayers upon his Agony neither is it so in the Greek neither are the words the same but for this I refer the Reader to a Supplement to the Reasonable Account where this silly Argument is fully spoken to p. 99. 100 101 102 103 104. 5. The third Question which I propounded was Whether any such Attention is to be expected from people to Forms of Prayer which they often hear as to a conceived Prayer The Author thinks it may be given to the matter of the Prayer I think so too there is no impossibility in the case I know of But the Question was Whether it be to be expected or hoped for considering the infirmity of all our natures This he wisely leaveth out and as wisely replieth nothing to the true Question 6. For what our Author adds in answer to an observation which I called at least ingenious tho none of my own That God to stir up peoples Attentions tells his people he will do a new thing he may find it Isaiah 42.9.43.19 Besides Is 42.9 new things are opposed to the former things it is this that the Scripture calls Admirable things new Num. 16.30 Jer. 31 32. But was not their Newness one thing which made them admirable I hope both his instances were new things in the strictness of Sense for when did the Earth before open and swallow up men alive When was any before Christ so miraculously conceived We do not much use to admire things we have seen a thousand times 2. He asks If God never intends to stir up mens Affections by his Word but when he tells them he will do a new thing What is that to the purpose Is not therefore newness of a thing one means to stir up Attentions and a great one too so far as it may be used without Sin Then surely it may be used He tells us further that True Religion and Devotion doth always incline to the same things Very true as to the matter and substance but doth it so also as to Words and Syllables Our Answerer hath heard of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 speaking the same things in a new manner and certainly Experience will tell us that the doing this in Divinity as well as in History contributes to the generality of Peoples Attention 7. He comes p. 82. to consider what I said to prove that Forms in Prayer hindred Fervency This I proved 1. On the Ministers part from the vast difference betwixt words following the Affections and Affections following of Words urged both by Dr. Ames and Mr. Calderwood in his Altare Damascenum This our Answerer grants as to the first use

been imposed or not universally imposed Here now our Vindicator runs a division of 4 pages and when he hath said all he can he must needs say I have said what is truth But this is to charge a great deal of Evil on our Laws and Governours And may not a great deal of evil be the fruit of some humane Laws which when Governours see it is their duty to repeal such Laws tho they made them in the simplicity of their Hearts not foreseeing such effects and consequents of them 2. He saith they must be guilty unless they root out all Liturgies Is there a word by me spoken to that purpose See the contrary said by me p. 164. n. 4. Confusions Heresies Blasphemies came in when Liturgies were shut out But the question is Whether if Forms of Prayer had been admitted and not Forms of all Sermons it had been any proportionable means to have prevented them 14. For what he further inlargeth upon p. 239 240. I shall only tell him That not one of ten of those who are now against universally used or imposed Liturgies of Prayers had any concern in the things he mentioned as things done when Liturgies were shut out For my own part I appeared not as a man to the World till the year 1645 so could have no concern in imposing or perswading the imposing of the Covenant the Ejection Sequestring or Imprisoning any for refusal of it If I remember right I saw not London from 1645 twice till 1659. I never saw Olivers face never came near an Army I did very well know all the persons who are said to have wrote the Book called Smectymnuus and did know that they were all persons not short of our Vindicator for Learning Pity Ministerial Abilities and all which was good and much his Superiors in age and that there is no such words or sense of theirs expressed in the 83 and 84 p. of their Answer to the Remonstrance nor any where else that I know I am not bound to read over all that Answer because I am not bound to justifie every Phrase of theirs 15. For what our Vindicator seemeth to threaten p. 238. telling me of Exposing my self to outward Inconveniences by which I suppose he meaneth sufferings I must confess such a political consideration might have had and it may be had too much influence on me 15 or 16 years ago But having nothing capable to be impaired but my Name and Repute my Estate my Liberty and my Life and having experienced that notwithstanding all my Candor owning the Lawfulness of Forms in General the Lawfulness of People joyning in Prayer with those that use them in Devotion my self doing so very often not condemning any Ministers who judge it lawful and more expedient to use them only forbearing my self to do it because I judge it sinful for me and giving my reasons for judging it so yet because I think it my duty to Preach the Gospel and have sometimes done it I have not escaped the rude Tongues of some who are Zealots for it nor been able to enjoy my Estate and Liberty without a very considerable impairing by Imprisonment most malicious and vexatious Prosecution without any colour and pretence of Law I am much hardened against and prepared to answer such little Topicks and tho I yet think it my duty to use all lawful means to preserve my self yet I see reason to suspect I may have been mistaken as to the lawfulness of some of my prudentials and to be more confirmed in what our Saviour hath taught us Matth. 16.25 whosoever will save his life shall lose it and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall save it Yet I trust I shall be always careful not to suffer as a Murtherer or as a Thief or as an Evil doer or as a busie body in other mens matters Pet. 4.15 but as a Christian and not be ashamed but to glorifie God on this behalf 16. I shall conclude this Chapter with minding my Reader of a fable which Luther makes use of in his opposition to the Papists in the beginning of the Reformation There was a City saith he in which was a Law That none should come into their great Meetings that had any bodily imperfections If he did he was to pay a Fine It happened on a day one came in in whom those who were set to take care to the Execution of that Law discerned one imperfection they demand his Fine he denies and struggles with them till they had discerned four Imperfections he had and then stood upon four Fines Our Vindicators struggling with me to this degree and in this manner in this case putting me upon a more narrow inquiry into this matter hath helped me to two or three new Arguments which I before hardly thought of I will but propound them let who will improve or answer them I think I shall hardly take up a pen again in this cause having said much more then I judge answered or capable of a solid answer 1. To institute any part of Worship is not lawful for any Superiors But to institute words in Vocal Prayer is to institute a part of Divine Worship Ergo. 2. To determine in Acts of Worship what God hath left at liberty to his Ministers is unlawful But to determine Ministers what words Ministers shall use in publick Ministerial Prayer is to determine to them and that in an Act of Worship what God hath left at liberty Ergo. 3. To submit to the use of any thing in the Worship of God which God hath not by his precept made necessary and many in the present age make a meer Idol thinking and declaring by their words and actions that no other way of Prayer is acceptable to God is sinful But c. 4. To submit to such a method of Prayer as must necessarily shut out the immeditate Influence of Gods Spirit as to words in Prayer which may be and often is is sinful and unlawful But there may be and often is an influence of Gods Spirit upon Ministers even as to Words of Prayer and such a thing is probably promised and to tye our selves to Forms of Words prescribed by others manifestly shuts out such an influence or the use of it Ergo. But thus much shall be sufficient to reply to our Vindicator answering my Arguments Let me now inquire how happily he hath Vindicated his own or other mens from my Answers Chap 9. of the Reasonable Account CHAP. X. A Reply to the Vindicators 9 Chap. p. 241 c. The Vindicators Fortification of the 10 Arguments for Forms of Prayer before battered beaten down and himself proved to have alledged no reason in his five Reasons cogent for the general use and imposition of Forms 1. I took notice of Ten Arguments brought for such Forms of Prayer and such an use of them as I had been speaking about The first was because Forms are not by God forbidden p. 135 I told them They were