a Protestant §. 2. Prot. Perhaps we do not agree in the sence of this Article Cath. It may well be so therefore for a tryal give me leave to propose a few Questions to you Prot. Ask what you please Cath. First then when you say you believe the holy Catholic Church do you not believe this Church to be one Body as St. Paul expresly teaches saying There is one Body one Spirit as there is one Hope of our calling one Lord one Faith one Baptism one God and Father of all c. Ephes. 4. 4. 5. 6. and as we profess in the following Creeds of the Church Prot. Yes I believe the true Catholic Church of Christ to be one Body §. 3. And do you not further believe that this Church of Christ shall continue one Body till the end of the world Prot. Yes doubtless for otherwise the time might come in which this Article of our Faith should be false and also Christ's promise That the Gates of Hell should never prevail against his Church should fail §. 4. Cath. In professing such a Belief of this Article do you not also intend thereby to acknowledg your self a Member of this one Catholic Church Prot. Yes without doubt Cath. You cannot surely think it a matter indifferent whether you be a Member of this one Church or not Prot. No by no means On the contrary I acknowledg that whosoever is separated from this one Church of Christ and dies in that separation cannot be saved §. 5. Cath. Thus far then we both agree Let us further if you please consider what a Church in general is I mean a Christian Church Prot. I conceive it to be a Society of Men and Women publicly professing that Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ. §. 6. Cath. But every Society thus professing is it thereby the same Church which we are taught to believe in the Creed Prot. It is at least a part of that Church Cath. Are then Societies of Heretics and Schismatics part of that one Church since they also profess the Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ Prot. No For they cut themselves off from this one Church either by inventing New and false Doctrines which renders them Heretics that is Chusers of a new Faith Or by disobeying the Lawful Commands of this one Church which renders them Schismatics that is Rebels §. 7. Cath. Can any Society be called one Body or Corporation unless it be united by common received Laws and Governors Prot. I now begin to perceive whither you would lead me Therefore I must advise well lest I engage my self too far by an hasty answer to this Question Cath. Sir it is not Victory but truth we now regard Therefore speak not of being engaged but freely recal any Answer you have or shall give if you find cause And as for the present Question consider well what that is which makes a Society as a Kingdom a Province an Army a City a Corporation to become one Body Is it not an Obligation imposed on those who live respectively in any of these to be subject to the peculiar Government and Laws there established This appears plainly in that wheresoever any one obstinately refuses such submission he is esteemed and treated as a Rebel a Fugitive an outlawed person and utterly deprived of all Priviledges and emoluments belonging to the said Body Prot. This cannot be denyed Cath. Apply this then to God's Church St. Paul says expresly it is one Body your Creed obliges you to call it One The Scripture compares it to a City at Unity in it self and to a well ordered Army with Banners under which all Soldiers are reduced in their ranks expecting the Generals command signifyed by subordinate officers Such a society is Gods Church It is the Kingdom of Christ which if once divided cannot stand But by his promise it and no other Kingdom besides it shall stand for ever and therefore it shall never be Divided but all its members shall continue in their order Now what makes such Order but obedience to Government and Laws Can you Imagine any other excluding this Prot. I must confess I cannot For it is plain that where every one will be a Law to himself there can be no Order nor Unity nothing but confusion and endless Divisions Cath. Hence it follows then that the Church must necessarily consist of Teachers and Disciples of Governors and Subjects Prot. That is granted Cath. And consequently that it is a Visible Society Prot. True for otherwise none will be able to know whom or what to obey No Society can be invisible to the members of it and it is not a Society if the Governors or Teachers in it be invisible and the Laws unknown §. 8. Cath. By whom have these Teachers and Governors been appointed in the Church Prot. St. Paul informs us Epes 4. 11. 12. 13. saying Christ gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the work of the Ministery for the edifying of the Body of Christ Till we all come in the unity of the Faith and of the knowledg of the Son of God unto a perfect man c. So also we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews No man taketh this honour to himself but he that is called of God as was Aaron Heb. 5. 4. §. 9. Cath. This being so are not they who are Disciples in Gods Church obliged in conscience to believe their Teachers and Subjects to obey their Governors Prot. Yes without doubt But yet with this condition that these Teachers teach truth and these Governors command lawful things Cath. But is every Subject to be a Iudg whether the Doctrine taught him be true and the thing commanded lawful Prot. The Scripture is to be Judg between them Cath. Indeed that which you say would be to some purpose if the Scripture could speak and answer the Readers Questions and Doubts as we two can do to one another But the Scripture being only a Writing and by consequence incapable of interpreting its own meaning whensoever any doubt of its true sence arises if it may be permitted to every Christian to judg of his Teachers Doctrines by examining them by Scripture the Church may as well be without Teachers §. 10. Prot. I know no remedy For since it is evident to us that there is on Earth no visible infallible Guide and Interpreter of Scripture we cannot rely upon any Man or any Society of Men so as to remain secure that they will not mislead us either out of ignorance or secular interests Therefore we must leave to all Christians a judgment of diseretion to discern by the Light of Gods word whether their Teachers guide them in the way of Truth or not Every one must take the best course he can not to fall into any dangerous Error And since Eternity depends upon it it is not likely that men will
abilities or blind passion against all Guides establish'd in Gods Church if Divine Revelation consent of Antiquity manifest Reason and even experience by outward Sensation may be fit to guide me I must not be a Protestant I must of necessity be a Roman Catholic For Divine Revelation interpreted also by consent of Fathers and Councils informs me that Christ hath established on Earth a visible Church which is one holy and Catholic the common Mother and only authentick Teacher of all Christians that this Church shall remain such to the end of the World and that whosoever is not a true faithful Member of this Church is thereby cut off from the Mystical Body of Christ and shall be eternally separated from Him Again evident Reason shews that no Person or Society can be esteemed a Member of any Church any other way than by believing its Doctrines and being subject to its Laws and Government In the third place the testimony of our Senses assures us that not any of our Modern Sects do assent to the Doctrines or are governed by the Laws of any Church at all and consequently not of the Catholic Church which had a being at their first pretended Reformation therefore upon these grounds it evidently follows that all the said Sects are manifestly guilty of Schism Moreover since the Roman is that Church of which the first Reformers once were Members and by reforming made a separation from it and since the same Church does constantly profess the same Doctrines which were once held by the Universal Body of Orthodox Christians and again since there is not any visible Church upon earth to which all marks of the true Church assigned in Scripture and by the Holy Fathers can be so applied and whereto the Antient Prophecies and the Promises of Christ have been so perfectly accomplished as the Roman it will evidently follow that the present Roman Catholic Church ought to be acknowledged that one Holy Catholic Church which we confess in the Apostles Creed and by consequence whatsoever Doctrines in opposition to the Faith professed in this Church are taught by Protestants they are thereby without any particular discussion legitimately prejudged to be formal Heresies Now Heresie and Schism being by all even by Hereticks and Schismaticks themselves acknowledged most dreadfully wasting Crimes of which I cannot possibly be guilty whilst I adhere to the Roman Catholic Church nor avoid the guilt of them by forsaking its Communion I conceive I have without any necessity of engaging in particular Disputes given you rational Grounds enabling me to afford a sufficient Answer to the Question first proposed by you viz. Why are you a Catholic §. 40. And for a conclusion Sir give me leave to tell you that it will be utterly in vain for you to atempt the avoiding of the stigmata brands of Heresie and Schism by entring into an endless Dispute about particular Controversies to be stated out of Books For till you be able to shew a present Visible Orthodox Church the Governors and Teachers whereof are derived by a continual Succession from the Apostles which Church in all those Points for which you have separated from the Roman teaches as you do and either governs you or is governed by you Till this I say be done your busying your self about particular Disputes will never produce to you Peace of mind but rather encrease in you Pride and Malice against others Your first most necessary Care therefore must be to establish your self in such a Church as can oblige you to believe her for by no other way can you nor your Teachers avoid Self-condemnation as manifest Innovators There are certain illustrious marks assigned by the holy Scriptures and Fathers to distinguish the true Catholic Church from Congregations of Hereticks and Schismaticks such are Unity Succession Universality Converting of Nations Miracles c. And these are such marks as are perceptible by the meanest capacities to the end that none should be excused if they mistake the Church Now not one of these so visible marks belongs to you and not one but belongs to the Roman Catholic Church §. 41. When you are urged to shew some signs or marks which might invite any to joyn with you all you can say is That you teach truth and that you duly administer the Sacraments that is you would prove your selves to be a true Church because you say you are a true Church for not the marks but the essence of a Church consists in teaching Truth c. But marks of his Church easily observable by all men were appointed by God to lead the Simple as well as the Learned to discover that Church which only teacheth Truth and duly administers his Sacraments Not any such marks do you pretend to shew And as for this your miscalled single Mark the Unlearned cannot possibly judg whether you do indeed teach Truth c. and the Learned must have spent their whole lives before they can be in a capacity to judg And though they should be so unhappy as to suffer themselves to be convinced that you do teach Truth c. yet till you can further demonstrate that you are not guilty of Schism but that you communicate with that one holy Catholic Church which you believe in the Creed it would notwithstanding all the truth pretended to be taught by you be a damnable sin in them to communicate with you These things considered since I am confident it is impossible for you to clear this point I believe you will find an insuperable difficulty to prepare according to the method observed here a tolerable general answer sufficient to vindicate your Church in case I should by way of exchange propose to you this Question Why are you a Protestant Prot. Judg not Sir too hastily Perhaps at our next meeting you will hear more than you now expect In the mean time I thank you for your Charity And God willing I will seriously reflect on what hath been said Cath. Farewel Sir and if you think good cast your eyes upon this little bundel of Citations out of several ancient Holy Fathers of the Church who will tell you that upon the very same grounds which have been here discoursed on they were good Christians and Catholics Prot. If they tell me so I shall not easily contemn what they tell me Farewel ✚ ¶ TESTIMONIES of HOLY FATHERS regarding The Substance of the foregoing DISCOURSE §. 1. Of the Churches prepetual Existence Visibility c. OBscurius dixerunt Prophetaeâ—de Christo quam de Ecclesia Puto propterea The Prophets have spoken more obscurely concerning Christ than concerning the Church The reason hereof I conceive to be because they foresaw in Spirit that men would make divisions and parties and that they would not much dispute about Christ himself but that they would raise great contentions about the Church Therefore that was more plainly foretold and more openly prophecyed concerning which greater contentions would in succeeding times
be admitted in France the Pope not only knowing but expresly allowing such refusal as appears by the Bull of Pope Clement the eight sent to King Henry the fourth at his reception into the Church and recited by Cardinal Perron in his Epistles in which Bull we find this Clause His Majesty shall effectually take order that the Council of Trent he published and admitted in all things Excepting only at your must earnest Supplication and Petition those things if there be any such which cannot be put in execution without a real disturbance of public tranquility The King of Spain likewise though believed to be more complyant with the Court of Rome being sollicited by the Pope to publish and admit the same Council in his Belgick Provinces though he willingly yielded thereto yet he did it not without this additional Clause adjoyned Touching the Regalities Rights Prerogatives and Preeminences of his Majesty his Vassals Estates and Subjects the Laycal Iurisdiction hitherto used the Right of Lay-Patronage the Right of Nomination Hearing of causes in the possessory matter of Benefices Tithes possessed or pretended to by Seculars c. in regard of all such things his Majesties Intention is that proceedings shall go on as hitherto they have done without changing any thing at all c. So necessarily scrupulous are Christian Princes to prevent the least diminution of their Temporal Rights and Priviledges More lately likewise when certain Authors of one Order published several Treatises in which they endeavoured to exalt to the height the Popes Iurisdiction Universal in Temporal affairs those Books were censured and condemned by many Catholic Universities and committed to the fire by Public Authority the Pope not being ignorant hereof And moreover which perhaps is yet more considerable the Superior General of the said Religious Order even in Rome it self published an Edict known to all Christendom by which he strictly forbad his Subjects under most heavy Censures to maintain such a Temporal Iurisdiction of the Pope either in Books Sermons or Disputations Now that which makes this so solemn a Prohibition of more weight is this that whereas the foresaid Authors earnestly contended to prove that all Christians were obliged to believe the Popes Right to such Authority as an Article of our Christian Faith the said General by publishing his Prohibitory Edict clearly shewed that he renounced the Belief of such a Doctrine For otherwise Who but a◠Antichrist would so severely under a penalty of Excommunication forbid the teaching or defending an Article of Faith And moreover in a General Chapter not long after assembled the said Prohibition was ratified by all Superiors of the same Order as their own Writers testifie Prot. I must needs confess that Christian Princes and Subjects too are much beholding to that Worthy General for his prudence and zeal to prevent occasions of tumults and Seditions Notwithstanding it seems to me that Princes are not yet secure for though the said Doctrine should cease to be esteemed an Article of Faith why may it not be defended as an Opinion at least Speculatively probable and if so a slender Probability will have force but too great to raise and foment Rebellions when discontents are multiplied among the people §. 66. Cath. You are much deceived Sir For besides that you may be sure that Princes will never permit their Authority to be rendred questionable the very pretending such a Doctrine to be only Probable is equivalently to grant that it is no Authority at all Since every one knows that a meer probable Title against a long established possession such as is that of Princes for their Temporal Soveraignty is in Law and Reason accounted no Title and consequently none who have any sence of Christianity will ever seek with the horrible Scandal of Religion to instill such a manifestly unjust incentive to Rebellion into the minds of Christians And now Sir I beseech you to consider things seriously and then judg with what injustice and cruelty our whole Religion and Church is condemned as teaching Treason and Rebellion and this only for a few private mens Writings so generally abhorred by our selves Prot. All I can say hereto is that for as much as concerns my self I will be no longer an accuser of your Church in this matter Proceed therefore if you please to the other following Points 4. Of the Real Presence and Transubstantiation §. 67. Cath. The next Point of Catholic Doctrine opposed by all Sectaries regards the Holy Eucharist Their rage against the former is indeed greater because interest is more concerned in it but a greater advantage for seducing the ignorant people they make of this because they permit them to judg of this most dreadful Mystery by their outward Senses which Catholics instructed by Holy Fathers tell them are not to be believed here In the Eucharist the first matter of Dispute and ground of the rest is the Catholic Doctrine touching the Real Presence of our Lords Body on the Altar after Consecration of the Symbole thus declared in the Council of Trent I prosess that in the most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist is present truly and substantially the Body and the Blood together with the Soul and Divinity of our Lord Iesus Christ And that there is made a Conversion of the whole Substance of the Bread into his Body and of the whole substance of the Wine into his Blood Which Conversion the Catholic Church calls Transubstantiation This Article of our Belief is to us solidly established on the Words of Institution THIS IS MY BODY which Words without any figurative explication are repeated alike by three Evangelists and the Apostle Saint Paul therefore we believe following universal Tradition that our Lord sincerely meant as he spake and because we believe so we are hated Prot. But how can you expect that we should assent hereto since our Senses contradict it §. 68. Cath. You cannot say however that our Senses are deceived for in this great Mystery they have a right perception of their proper Objects to wit Colour Extention Figure c. Neither I suppose will you say that the judgment which Reason from the Senses collects is always infallible For if so then for example our Saviour whilst living on earth should have been judged a meer Man And the Angels appearing to Lot and his daughters no Angels but meer men for so would Reason relying on the outward Senses have judged Prot. in these examples Divine Revelation expresly teaches the contrary Cath. Then if in the present case you were assured by Divine Revelation that God by a supernatural Power did on the Priests consecrating the Symbols produce a real Change of the Outward Elements into the Body and Blood of Christ you would believe God against your Senses Prot. I should no doubt §. 69. Cath. Can you have a greater assurance hereof then the express Words of Christ literally understood by the Constant Tradition of all Churches in all ages Prot. Such an assurance