Selected quad for the lemma: sense_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
sense_n	authority_n	church_n	infallible_a	2,008	5	9.8493	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A44111	An answer to several material passages in a book published some time since by W.P. entituled, A brief examination and state of liberty spiritual, both with respect to persons in their private capacity, and in their church-society and communion, &c. by J.H.	Hogg, John, fl. 1675-1698.	1691 (1691)	Wing H2368; ESTC R13730	50,925	60

have not been the least to blame and the same Rocks or like them on which they were split is our danger wherefore we should not think by what we know to measure what is to come or that the form that is now set up is that which the People of God for the future are to be found in for as that may and certainly will make us miss of the appearance of the Lord that is still to come so do we hereby limit the Holy one as much as is in our power and such may as justly be reproved as they was of old to whom the Lord said by his Prophet Heaven is my Throne and the Earth is my Footstool where is the House that you will build for me or where is the place of my Rest Page 6. he asketh If there be not a Christian Body and whether this Body hath not a Head and whether Christ be not this Head and whether this Head be without Eyes Ears Smell and Taste and this Body without Sense and Feeling if not whether this Head beareth smelleth seeth tasteth differingly and contrary to it self and whether this Body hath a contrary feeling at the same time about the same thing and if it be true that the Church of Christ redeemed by his most precious Blood to live to him see with the same Eye hear with the same Ear speak with the same Mouth live by the same Breath and are led by the same Spirit where is this Disagreement Contrariety or dissent about the things of his Church We shall subjoin part of Page 8 and consider them together They that have Christ for their head have one Counceller they disagree not in their Judgments in things relating to Christ and good of his Church they have one and the same guide c. Now to every Member is a Measure of the same Spirit given to profit with u● and though every Member is not an Eye nor an Ear nor a Mouth yet every Member hath unity with the Eye with the Ear and with the Mouth in their proper and respective Acts and they one with another The Eye sees for the Mouth and the Mouth speaks for the Eye and the Ear hears for both c. it must be granted that there are helps in the Church as well as that there is a Church at all and the holy Ghost has compared those helps to several Members and Senses of a Man's Body as an Eye an Hand a Foot Hearing Smelling c. all then cannot be the Eye neither can all be the Hand for then they would confound their Offices and if I will not comply with him that is made an Eye because I am not that Eye or an Hand because I am not that Member my self nor a Party to the Action or Performance of that Member I resist the Lord though under pretence of resisting Man for the Lord's Sake c. with much more to the same purpose Answ The most of all this is in the way of queries but in short something or nothing must be intended by them if nothing they 're vain and to no purpose if something 't is plain 't is to gain a dependance upon what he calls the Church and that he makes infallible as she relates to Men that she must relate to Men is clear the difference being betwixt Men and Men that he intends her infallible is also clear if he writes his Mind for as he makes no provision in all his Book to the contrary by allowing Conviction to preceed Conformity to her Orders so also he seems to make her immediately joyned to Christ for her Head as the natural Body is joyned to the natural Head to speak a little to all this which might be subjects of many and large Discourses first it doth not seem to hang well together in the first part he tells us this Church hears with the same Ear sees with the same Eye and speaks with the same Mouth in the latter part that Members of this Church except he means another Church are made an Ear an Eye a Hand c. as may be seen plainly above is not this inconsistent In the first they all seem to hear for themselves c. in the latter some hear immediately and some secondarily the first hear immediately not only for themselves but for others also the second hear only for themselves by others is this to hear with the same Ear see with the same Eye we doubt not but if it be to say no more to this we desire it may be better explained In the mean time as to the Church that is perfectly redeemed by the most precious Blood of Christ to be Bone of his Bone and Flesh of his Flesh and so united to him as the natural Body is to the natural Head we grant it may be said in a good sense that she sees with the same Eye c. but this is that Church that is hid from the World as Christ is hid from the World yet he knows who are his and they know him and his Voice All should travel for this and not fit down contented in any thing till they know the white Stone where the new name is writ that none can know so well as them that have it and though the Bride the Lamb's Wife in this sense is making her self ready to do the Father's Will yet we find not that this Church hath shewed her self unto the World or that she may thus shew her self we cannot determine for her Life is hid with Christ in God but if she have or may be known by any infallible Character that so what is or may be said of this Church that is truly in God in which there is neither spot nor wrinkle may be truly applied to any visible Society let him then set her forth as a City on a Hill that she may not be hid which he ought to do if there must be that dependance which his Writings imply And then let us know what Member is this Eye that we must see by and what Member is this Ear that we must hear by and what Member is this Mouth that we must speak by in those things that relate to Christ and his Church that so we may not be imposed upon by such as may pretend to be that Eye that Ear and Mouth and are not for if this be the Ordinance of God it both may and ought to be done for God yet never designed an end with respect to Man but he discovered the means Therefore let us have what is certain or we cannot have Truth Will he have us to depend and not certainly tell us what on He doth not intend that sure for that would be to bring in as great a Chimera on a Religious score as we have ever heard of when this is considered if this can be done that is insisted on above let it be done that so difference may come to an end but if this cannot be done then that we may

or to apply them to avoid the Cross of Christ in our selves is extreamly evil but to apply them against what we believe is wrong and imposed let who will be concerned may be a true Application for the like cause will have the like effect where-ever it appears But he proceeds and saith the Doctrin is true but not exclusively of all External Counsel c. We say so too for we are for agreeing with him as far as we can and therefore that we may continue we must mind him there is a vast difference betwixt excluding all External Counsel and receiving all for Counsel that comes from this or that Man or from this or that Assembly and we are sure we cannot find that he makes any good provision in his Book to the contrary by allowing Conviction to preceed Conformity but he saith such sayings as this that I must mind the Spirit of God in myself c. are false in Application where Men are allowed observe to have had the fear of God and mind of his Spirit and are not proved to have acted in their own Wills c. Answer We did concur above as far as we could but now we must dissent it is not therefore false in Application for that were to say because some have had the fear of God and mind of his Spirit therefore such have it now or always Again because some are not proved to have acted in their own wills therefore such have acted in the will of God and therefore we must depend on such at all times in what they direct because we believed that once they was right O sad Argument How is it possible that we should believe his cause good when we are sure those are unsound Arguments and are also certain the Truth stands in no need of what is untrue to defend it much less can make use of what is false nay that belong to what is wrong or at best to what is but like Truth and to this purpose is the whole Page nay the whole Book for instead of proving things he takes for granted that this Church must be right and all she differs with must be wrong but the mischief is we know not certainly what he means by this Church and therefore desires she may be set forth fairly and in the mean time we believe he can no more prove her infallible as directed to Men than he can make this Argument good that because some had the fear of God as above therefore such have it now wherein there is no Evidence no Certainty to depend on for such may have had the fear of God and mind of his Spirit and for all that may now be without it as well as himself who used to have good Arguments but now wants them Again every Fact must be committed before proved therefore they may have acted in their own will and not yet fully proved but what proof would he have and we will endeavour to provide in the mean time can any indifferent Man think that all this Smoak can be without Fire What one part all right and t'other all wrong let them think so that can we cannot and not only so but if we have allowed any to have had the fear of God and mind of his Spirit in things offered to us if that allowance was true observe it was because we had a divine sense rellish and taste of it in our own Hearts was not this all the true Evidence we had or could have that such was right And are we to go any further for a proof that such are wrong then when the same Evidence comes not along with them Nay instead of that Evidence what we have is either against the things or manner of bringing them in must not we stand or fall here or otherwise put our own Eyes out on purpose to be led and guided by others and that before we are either perswaded that their sight is good or deputed to lead us Page 11. he saith The Enemy is at work to scatter the mind of Friends by those loose Pleas as leave me to my freedom and to the Grace of God in my self c. For he saith The plain Consequence is to go from ancient Principles and Practices as there set down and to set measure against measure as in Page 12. which he saith is Confusion it self Babel indeed this is the very Rock he saith both Professor and Prophane would long since have run us upon that a way is hereby opened to all the World Libertines to plead the light within for their Excesses c. which he saith grieveth God's Spirit and was severely reproved by our Friends in the beginning and is still reproved by them that keep their Habitation c. Answer The ground of this great noise and clamour was not a going from ancient Principles or Practices but your bringing in new things and pressing them to dissatisfaction against which it was alledged by those dissatisfied as the Spirit of Truth was not only allowed but was truly the only guide into all Truth they ought to be left to the Grace of God in this matter and not pressed to receive circumstantial or shadowy things contrary to their freedom and satisfaction here such pleaded Conscience against Imposition Now will you for this criminate such with going into what is evil or immoral or at least with designing such things is not this to judge before the time What 's this but first to suspect your Brethren of evil and then kill them in a sense to prevent it a practice always judged by us in others as evil and unrighteous and therefore every appearance of it ought to be avoided in our selves do such or did they meet together And then as a Church agree what Rules should be observed by you and might not they do that as well as you For if Church Authority may be pleaded in the case a few may be a Church as well as many for 't is not the greatness of the number in a Scripture sense but the qualifications of the Persons that makes a true Church But if nothing that is simply evil or immoral can be charged upon your Brethren nor yet any excess in imposing new things upon you will you to make way for Lordship and Dominion over your Brethren joyn with the prophane and Professors against them and the Truth or at least against those Testimonies to it For when he tells us That this was the very Rock Professors and Prophane would have run us upon namely that hereby a way was opened to all the Worlds Libertines to plead the Light within for their excesses either he makes some Friends among which is himself to be one with Professors against the light within or otherwise doth not he joyn what is unequal together For it is plain that the Professors tho' they owned the light within and Spirit of God in a sense yet they denied it was a sufficient Rule to be relied upon to guide into

as Churches their Power being all alike If then some distinct Assembly it must be such an one to speak modestly as is superiour to all the rest according to Constitution and then what comes not in this way can have no shadow of any Authority for force or pressure of new things beyond satisfaction and freedom but such a Church cannot be but either by a civil Compact or by a divine Institution The first is not agreeable with the Truth for we cannot delegate or give power to any to make Rules or Laws to guide us or oblige us in spiritual Matters because we cannot be bound by any thing but the Truth and we must know it such before we can be bound by it therefore no such Compact or Agreement can be because liberty reserved and our power given away are inconsistent But if the latter that some one Assembly according to divine Institution is superiour to all the rest who can make circumstantial or shadowy things Terms of Communion 'T is necessary we should know that Assembly as well also that their Authority is divine if we must rest upon their Determinations without Trial in these matters c. But this we think we cannot know but by a divine way and that then must be either by a divine sense in our own minds or by the Authority of Truth which such bring to convince in both cases we conceive our Understanding is concerned in our Obedience and Duty but neither of those ways are known to us at present therefore till set forth to press Obedience under the notion of a divine Institution implies a kind of Contradiction being in effect to say we are to go out of the Truth to serve it for to go into uncertainty is not to serve the Truth if it be not to go out of the Truth directly thus by all our endeavour in searching into the matter we cannot find according to the Principles of truth that Conformity is to go before Conviction however not before Perswasion And yet we say for Peace sake and that nothing might be hindered that is good as also that true liberty may be preserved any Particular or any Assembly of the Community may offer what is new if they sincerely believe it good and serviceable without breach of Unity or at least of Communion but we cannot find to the bringing of new things in as matters of Faith or Terms of Communion that any Assembly have any more power than a particular Person and if mistaken we would very gladly be better informed and therefore till that be done we believe to press new things as matters of Faith or Terms of Communion to dissatisfaction and indeavouring to get such things strengthened by geting the majority of Voices either directly or indirectly is a going out of Truth to make Parties And this being done how easie is it for Men to be hurried into that Uncharity as not to dispence with those Dissenters which themselves have made without Characters of Indignity as publick marks of Dis-favour as though the thing was out of doubt Truth because the most are for it We shall endeavour to bring this long business to this short issue either such as believe the Spirit of Truth is the only guide into all Truth have liberty and freedom to judge of what they are to receive or they have not if they have not power and liberty to judge of what they are to receive and practice as matters of Faith c. then the power over them is uncountable and such must submit to their Determinations not because they know or are perswaded they are true but because those that have this power over them say they are true if this be not Usurpation exercising Lordship and Dominion as well as the bringing in blind Obedience and the begetting into an Implicite Faith we desire it may be fairly demonstrated to be according to Truth this cannot fairly be denied because we believe the Truth will stand the Test and be willing to come to the Tryal we know that which is false will not indeed because it cannot therefore we are fully perswaded where any is offended at this fair and free Inquiry for satisfaction 't is a sign if not an infallible one that such are faulty But on the other hand if we have liberty and freedom to judge of what we are to receive and practice as matter of Faith on terms of Communion that so our Religion and Duty may be according to our Understanding and Judgment then we may dissent as well as assent to things proposed or brought in according as things or occasion may fall out and this without fear or hazard of being proclaimed Delinquents for Nonconformity not only with respect to our private Sentiments or Opinions for that we might do in Turky or at Rome but with respect to those of the same Communion that would bring new things in to be observed otherwise we have neither true liberty nor freedom The Result is if there be a power over us that can bring in new things as matter of Faith and terms of Communion let it be fairly set forth and proved according to truth but if we have power and liberty to judge of what we are to receive then allow it freely that dissatisfaction and difference may come to an end To this we think can be but one Objection and that is that such as are dissatisfied are not conscientious which we confess is an old Objection but yet not more old than evil and never was to seek to abuse others by such as over-valued themselves 't is time therefore it were removed being as well unchristian uncharitable as unrighteous to criminate Perfons before any thing that 's evil or immoral can be justly proved against them and such practices have always been so far from making difference less as they made them greater for instead of restoring the Path of Peace and Truth to dwell in they always laid a sure foundation both for dissatisfaction and at last for division seeing every one that is truly conscientious have not far to go for an unerring Evidence to reverse so erronious a Judgment Those are some of those many things that we are dissatisfied with in his Book and we can say on a conscientious account either then from a true Understanding or from some misapprehension of the matter in both cases we conceive we should be relieved according to Truth And as our Author is great in the Reputation of Men we expect and also hope he will be great as a Christian too which is to submit unto the Truth where-ever it appears concerned by amending what is amiss whether it be with respect to himself or it be in our mis-understanding so far as lieth in his power and that he may proceed chearfully in this undertaking we are content to say we know but in part and indeed we think but in a little part too nor dare we think our selves so perfect but what we have writ may be objected against by such as will cavil on divers accounts Perhaps some may say it wants Method may be some may say there 's seeming Contradiction or 't is full of Tautologies nay perhaps some fault may be found as to the matter for we confess and think that the day will still grow more clear and then shadows will still be less However as we are sure our end is good there can be nothing done against us in the same mind that can hurt or be of evil Consequence for varieties of Understanding that stands in the fear of God and are managed in his love may be some cause that more light is afforded but however we make our advice to others in the first place a caution to our selves to be always ready to hear and mind what when and how the Lord is pleased to speak or appear for we do not already count our selves perfect yet one thing we do forget what is behind and presses hard after the Mark that stands before and think those that do not so seems not apt for the Kingdom of God for the mind of Christ must be sought for forward and not back to his former appearances and thus in part we know what we are but what we shall be we do not fully know but as the living hopes remain in the mind such truly wait for his appearing which as they cannot miss of his coming so shall they see him as he is and be purified by him that is pure for he was is and is to come Lastly we must confess we do believe our Author might be really troubled touching our Differences as Israel was about Ruben when he built his Altar but we believe also he did not inquire the matter out fully as they did which if he had we are fit to think we should have found as few Objections in this Book as in his other Writings or had he considered of what of this nature was as we were informed communicated to him some time since then perhaps had been no occasion for this however we hope shall be always as ready to confess unto a Truth as to oppose an Error In the mean time we conclude truly desiring the good of Mankind in general but especially of them that have in any measure believed or confessed that the Spirit of Truth or Light within that comes from God is the only guide into all Truth for those we are the more concerned not only because they are nearer to us by Profession but also because they have received more and so have more to give an account of therefore we do earnestly desire such may not sit down in a Notion or Profession of so holy a Principle and thereby take the name of the Lord in vain but by a true Travel in their own Hearts and Minds with God's holy Spirit may come to prove the Truth of what is professed then will they be established as Mount Sion indeed that never can be removed The END