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A41594 A discourse of the use of images in relation to the Church of England and the Church of Rome in vindication of Nubes testium against a pamphlet entitled The antiquity of the Protestant religion concerning images, directed against some leaves of that collection. Gother, John, d. 1704. 1687 (1687) Wing G1328; ESTC R15744 20,616 40

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term'd a Worship Bowing in Reverence to the Name of Jesus may be styl'd a Worship And in this Sense 't will not only be laid to the Church of England's charge that she teaches and approves Image-Worship but likewise Bread Worship Book-Worship Table-Worship and Name-Worship And 't will not be very difficult by the equivocation of this word and the help of a little Pulpit-Sophistry to paint out This Church as Black with Idolatry and Superstition to the People as she has done the Church of Rome And it do's not at all reflect upon the Church of Rome or her Doctrin that some of her Divines call this Respect Honor Veneration or Worship paid to Holy Images a Religious Respect or Honor c. For this is only a Dispute about a Word and let it be call'd by what Name they please whether Honorary Religious or Divine this alters not the Nature of the thing for 't is but the same thing by whatsoever Name it be express'd If some will have every Respect or Veneration shewn to Holy Things as to the Bible the Sacrament the Name of Jesus for the Relation they have to God to be call'd a Religious Worship let 'em call it so in God's Name And if others will have no Veneration or Worship to be Religious but that which is directly and immediatly given to God let 'em have their way These are fine Notions and pretty Entertainments for School-debates but are no concern of our Religion or Conscience For as long as 't is own'd that there 's a Respect and Reverence due to such Holy things as in some particular manner have relalation to God and his Service and we only express this Respect outwardly which interiorly we feel in our Souls let this be call'd an Honor a Worship an Adoring let it be said to be Honorary Religious or Divine let it be deem'd Absolute or Relative 't is equally alike to us since we are satisfied the wrangling of the Learned about Names and Words has no influence upon the Acts of our Souls and cannot make that to be Idolatrous which in it self is not so Here then may the Reader see how stands this Controversie between Catholics and the Church of England Protestants Both Churches acknowledge that there 's an Honor and Reverence that may be lawfully given to the Holy Images and Pictures of Christ Both Churches express this Honor outwardly Protestants by using them in their Churches and Prayer-books which as Montagu says cannot be abstracted from giving them Honor and Reverence While Catholics go farther and say that 't is lawful to express this Honor and Reverence due to them as they have relation to God by Kissing them pulling off the Hat Bowing Setting of Tapers c. before them in the same manner and with no more just occasion of Scandal and no more breach of any Commandment than the Church of England do's express the Veneration She shews to the Bible in Kissing it to the Church by pulling off the Hat to the Name of Jesus by Bowing to the Communion-Table by setting Candles on it Which being so many Actions intended to signifie the Interior Sentiment and Affection of the Soul there can certainly be no more of Idolatry in them or Superstition than there is in the Intention or in the Act of the Soul the one being the same outwardly what the other is inwardly And however some Divines and Leading Men of the Church of England who are in love with wrangling and thro' the Influence of an Unchristian Temper seem to be afraid of a better Understanding coming amongst Christians take pains to blow up this Controversie with some School and Empty Notions yet 't is not to be thought there 's any great difference between the Two Churches were they to Speak their Sense in a Cool and Moderate Temper where they might be free from the Suggestions of such Hot and Fiery Spirits who seem to be rather Men of State and Policy than of Religion For can it be imagin'd that the Church of England who confesses that the Holy Ghost himself the Apostles and Primitive Christians instructed by the Apostles Honor'd the NAME of the Cross and had an Honorable Esteem for the SIGN of the Cross can be in good earnest against those who express outwardly this Honor which in it self is thus acknowledg'd of Divine Institution and to have been the Doctrin of the Apostles If the Apostles too as she owns above did honor the NAME of the Cross by their Mouths and Words can she condemn those who do the like with their Hands their Heads or Knees If it be the Doctrin of the Holy Ghost to have this Honor for the Name and Sign of the Cross in our Hearts and the Apostles by the instinct of that Holy Spirit did express this by their Words may not We do so too And if We may do this in Words may not we do it in any other way of Expressing our Sense which Nature has given us and are answerable to Words Words are nothing more than for their Signification and if we signifie our thoughts by any other way as by Signs by any Motion or Gesture of our Body these Actions being to express the same affection of our Soul which we other ways do by Words they are as Innocent as our Words and 't is impossible the Actions should be Idolatrous whilst the Words are Orthodox Since being taught by the Apostles to have an Honor in our Hearts for the SIGN of the Cross 't is the same thing before God and Men whether we signifie this outwardly by our Tongues or by our Lips or by our Hands or by our Heads or by our Knees these being only so many different kinds of Speaking to signifie one and the same sense of our hearts And whilst they are so there can be nothing justly charg'd upon any one of these ways of Expressing but will as certainly fall upon all the rest for they being all upon the same intention and design of shewing outwardly the Honor we are taught by the Apostles to have in our hearts and this Honor thus severally express'd being but one and the same founded upon the Relation the Sign of the Cross has to Christ if it be a Religious Worship when 't is signified by the Knee 't is Religious too when signified by the Tongue and alike Religious whilst 't is in the Heart if it be Idolatrous to express it by the Knee in bending 't is Idolatrous too to express it with the Tongue in Words and most of all Idolatrous as it is in the Heart Upon this Point turns the Greatest part of this Controversie which of it self is very inconsiderable But our Answerer takes little care to see how the Question stands He 's for exposing the Church of Rome and as long as he has the knack of doing this by Ridiculing and Drolling what should he trouble himself with such impertinencies as are stating the Question and speaking to the Point He 's
ipsa Apostolorum aetate neque enim contrarium ostendi potest existimationem peperit Honorificam The Honor and Esteem shewn to the NAME of the CROSS did produce even in the Age of the Apostles an honorable Esteem likewise for the SIGN of the Cross neither can any thing contrary to this be prov'd What can be plainer than that according to this Canon 't is the Sense of the Church of England that the Primitive Christians were taught by the Apostles not only to Honor the Name of the Cross but likewise the SIGN of the Cross And certainly if according to this Church the Apostles taught their Followers to honor in their Hearts and Souls the Sign of the Cross it can neither be contrary to the Apostles nor this Church to do so now and to express this Honor outwardly which they are thus taught to conceive inwardly and entertain in their hearts 'T is an Absurdity sure too great to fall upon the Church of England thus absolutely to approve the Affection of Honor and Esteem towards the Sign of the Cross in Christians Hearts as both a Christian Duty and an Apostolical Doctrin and then afterwards to condemn the same Honor and Affection of the Soul as Idolatry and Superstition when 't is express'd Outwardly either in Words or Gesture For how is it possible that what is Apostolical in the Heart should by being express'd outwardly become Idolatrous This Doctrin is deliver'd more expresly by Mr. Montague who in his Book call'd a New Gag thus declares the Express Tenet of Catholics and of his own Church p. 318. You say the Pictures of Christ the Blessed Virgin and Saints must not have Latria So We. You give them Dulia I quarrel not the Term tho' I could There is a Respect due unto and Honor given Relatively to them If this you call Dulia We give it too Let Practice and Doctrin go together We agree Nay he shews farther 't is impossible to keep or set up the Pictures of Christ or his Saints without having a REVERENCE and HONOR for them in due kind Hear him in his own words in his Appeal to Caesar c. 21. But it has distasted some says he that RESPECT and HONOR should be given unto them Images of Christ Strange it should displease any that can approve of any be it but a Civil use of them I cannot tell unless Men would ins●●ntly have them pull'd down in all places demolish'd stamp'd to powder whosesoever whatsoever wheresoever The setting of them up suffering them to stand using them for Ornaments for helps of Memory of Affection of Rememoration cannot be abstracted to my Vnderstanding from Reverence and Honor Simply in due kind Can a Man have the True Representation of his Prince Parents Patrons c. without Awe Respect Regard Love Reverence moved by Aspect and wrought in him I profess my Imperfection or what they will call it it is so with me Unco impacto in Latrinas in Gemonias in malam Crucem the Pictures Statues Paintings Representations of Christ the Virgin Apostles Martyrs Holy Men and Women unless the very having and preserving of them do in some sort imply RESPECT REGARD and HONOR done unto them without offence justly given without Scandal or Inclination to Impiety Then he urges the Truth of this Doctrin with the words of Junius Junius says he was no Papist not in your opinion I hope He in his Animadversions upon Bellarmin de Imaginibus says Hoc nemo NOSTRVM dicit non esse COLENDAS nec ullo modo Suo modo COLI probamus velut Imagines at non religioso cultu qui aut superstitiosus est aut impius nec cùm aliorum scandalo sive Cultus separatus sive conjunctus cum eorum Cultu intelligatur quorum sunt Imagines None of us say that Images are no ways to be worship'd We prove that they are to be worship'd in a way peculiar to them as Images but not with a Religious Worship which is either Superstitious or Impious Neither to the scandal of others whether the Worship be understood the same or different from that which is given to the things Represented by them Thus this Learned Man delivers and defends the Doctrin of his Church in relation to the Images of Christ and his Saints against the Arguments of some Informers which he thinks to be no other than Puritans and at best some FVRIOVS ONES of his own Church or SINGVLAR ILLUMINATES as he terms them ib. c. 20. And now what great difference here in this Point between the Two Churches The Council of Trent says that Images of CHRIST c. ought to be set up in Churches and DVE HONOR and VENERATION given them The Church of England by Mr. Montague says that the Images of Christ the Blessed Virgin Mary and Saints may be set up in Churches RESPECT and HONOR may be given them in Due kind The using them for helps of Memory of Affection of Rememoration cannot be abstracted from REVERENCE and HONOR simply in DVE kind The Catechism ad Parochos says These Images are set up in Churches ut Colantur that they may be Honor'd or Worship'd that is in due kind The Protestants say by Junius None of us deny but they may be Honor'd or Worship'd in their kind Nay more We prove They are to be Worship'd in some manner that is as Images Both Churches then agree that Sacred Images may be set up in Churches that a Respect Honor and Reverence is due to them in their kind and both concur in terming this Honor or Reverence Cultus or Worship i. e. in it's kind Suo modo Junius expressing it due velut Imagines as they are Images The Council of Trent because they Represent Christ c. which is upon the very same reason and ground Besides this 't is agreed by both Churches that this Reverence shewn to these things is founded purely upon the Relation they have to God and is terminated finally upon him This as to the Church of Rome appears from what is already quoted out of the Council of Trent And as to the Church of England from the words of Montagu above mention'd And from Bishop Jewel who in Rep. ag Hard. says We Worship the Sacrament the Word of God we Worship all other things in such Religious wise to Christ belonging And then afterwards giving the Reason The Sacraments be Ador'd says he but the whole Honor resteth not in them but is passed over from them to the things Signified Which is the very Relative Honor mention'd so often by Catholic Divines And this Divinity is found likewise in some Modorn Church-Men as Dr. Stillingfleet who in his Def. ag T. G. pa. 600. says that Altho' no Irrational or Inanimate Being be capable of that real Excellency to deserve any Honor from us for it 's own sake yet such things may have a Relation to matters of so High a Nature as to deserve a different Vsage and Regard from other things And this