infidelles to conuert heretikes to instruct youthe in good learning to professe the tongues Grammer Logike Rhetorike Philosophie and Diuinitie without rewarde or peny taking in that I saie some addicte them selues to this trade of life and are therefore called the companie or societie of Iesus not euery Christian is suche a Iesuite M. Nowell You youre selfe were not I am suer when yowe receiued youre stipende for teaching at westminster whether you be now sodenly become such a Iesuite that other men knowe better then I. Where yow saie that they bragge of a seuerall name of religions that is one of your ordinarie lies M. Nowell Would God you and I with other that haue not yeat perfitely renounced this wicked worlde coulde as well practise in oure doinges that lesson of S. Paule modestia vestra nota sit omnibus hominibus Phillip 4. Let youre modestie be knowen to all men as they haue doen and to the greate encrease of Christiā faith daily doe Againe their religion is not seuerall in respecte of faithe which they professe being no other then that one knowen faithe of Christes vniuersall churche but of maner and kinde of liuing whiche maie be diuerse without feare off schisme But if youre religion be hipocrisie as it is in dede then haue yow stirred vp an horrible schisme diuiding and cutting the gloriouse Nowell name of Iesus in the which onelye is saluation yea tearing Christe him selfe in pieces infinitly more wickedly and cruelly then euer did the wicked souldiors that crucified Christ who had a remorse to cutte his coate a sondre Hetherto M. Nowell hathe wrangled about the name Dorman supposing the religion of those of the societie of Iesus as good as his And trulie were it no better it were but a starcke lump of heresies partly olde newly scoured partly newe lately inuented Now he commeth to the religion it selfe and vpon a bare supposition that it is hipocrisy this lusty Rhetorician dischargeth a peale of threateninges and concludeth vpon the same that the professours thereof are a horrible schisme diuiding tearing and cutting Christe him selfe and so furthe But what if the religion of those whom yow call Iesuites be no hipocrisy M. Nowell Yow bid me proue that On goddes name I saie it is no hipocrisye in dede How thinke yow haue I not well and substantially proued it Doe not I proue it to be no hipocrisy as you proue it is hypocrisie when yow bring only to proue it this bare assertion of youres as it is in dede as though euery worde that yow spake were the ghospell it selfe If yow saie that yow minded not to proue it but to affirme it then it shal be inough for me also to affirme the contrary onely without anie nede to proue it at all attending after youre proufe that so I maie haue some matter to answere to Therefore I repeate againe if the religion that yow speake of be no hipocrisy as it is none in deede then haue yow malitiously lied When yow speake of cutting the gloriouse name off Iesus Christe the tearing of him selfe in to pieces you put vs in remembraunce of that miserable and moste horrible tearing that yow haue made of Christe yow cause vs to thinke how yow haue cut his misticall bodye the churche by schismes and heresies how yowe haue haled and mangled his sacramentes how yow haue rent his true body in that moste blessed sacrament how yow haue troden it vnder your beastly feete infinitly more wickedly and cruelly on the altar thē did those wicked souldiours that crucified him on the crosse And lest all these sectes of hipocrites shoulde not be knowen Nowell sufficiently by only diuersitie of names they haue by other infinite wayes and meanes trauailed to seuer their sectes a sondre studieng for diuision as for the best and flieng all shewe of vnitie as the worst of all thinges The Catholikes being sufficiently proued schismatikes Dorman by the diuersitie of names M. Nowell wyll not staye there but by other infinite meanes and wayes he will he saieth proue the same Nowe I praie yow good Readers marcke well these infinite meanes and waies For excepte they were of greate force M. Nowell yow maie be suer woulde haue contented him selfe with suche stuffe as he hath in suche abundance brought allreadie without heaping anie more Wherfore to their diuersitie of names they haue ioined diuersitie Nowell of fashions and diuersitie of colours in their apparel diuersitie of girdles hose and shoes diuersitie of shauing diuersitie of going becking and bowing diuersitie of diete and meates diuersitie of reading singing and tuning diuersitie of churche seruice and diuersitie of rules of life Who is it now M. Nowell that magno conatu magnas nugas Dorman agit That plaieth the triffler so earnestly Who proueth quidlibet ex quolibet all thinges of euery thing What greate triffles vtter you to proue a schisme emongest religiouse men What childish diuersities heape you together to proue the horrible crime of schisme If these diuersities be as you saie they are the verie propertie of schismes and sectes what shall we saie to oure seruing men that go in diuerse liuories the aldermen of London that go in one coloure and the burgeoises and meaner Citezins that go in an other What will you make of the graue Iudges and learned Seriātes at the lawe Shal they be schismatikes and sectaries because the one sorte is cladde in scarlet the other in fine blacke Doctours in the vniuersitie in their scarlet gownes and Maisters of Arte in their schoole habite are they sectes by your iudgement M. Nowell Your selfe with your long gowne and square cap mainteine you a secte because yow go otherwise apparailed then other laye mē doe Or if iudges Doctours Aldermen scholers seruing men maye haue diuersitie of fashions diuersitie of colours in apparell and yeat this diuersitie in them no propertie of schismes and sectes maye not religiouse men also being of diuerse vocations and professions haue the like diuersitie of appareile and suche other thinges without suspition of sectes and schismes Let your wisdome if you saie nay instructe vs when you write nexte and shewe the cause why But I praie you good sir that affirme so peremptorily that this diuersitie is the verie propertie of schismes and sectes haue you anie scripture that leadeth you to saie so Haue you anie learned writer within the first six hundred yeares that giueth this marcke to knowe schismatikes by Is there anie beside your selfe and the Apologie and some other of like credite that describeth schismes and sectes by this diuersitie Naye if this diuersitie that you vainely obiect to vs were the verie propretie of sectes and schismes might you not perhappes by that meanes proue Christe and his Apostles schismatikes For as yow haue no scripture to proue that they went al in one liuory so is the likelihode and presumption on the contrarye parte that they went diuersly appareiled But how so euer
or some other like vnto it If this were not youre meaning M. Nowell why cut you of the worde quaÌ„uis at the beginning and these other in the middest Tell vs some other cause if you can Next after these auctorities you alleage a treatie of one fo 73. a. Borowed of the coÌ„fession of wittenberge Tit. de Eccles that you set furth Rhetorically calling him an auncient auctor printed withe Chrisostome and of long time taken for him to proue that the churche must be tried by the scriptures To this place I answere that whether it be Chrisostomes owne worcke from whence it is taken or no this is a thing moste certeine that it is to be warily readen as the boke which hath thrust into it if it be Chrisostomes owne or anie other catholike mannes by some false Arrian heretike manie poisoned and perniciouse sentences for the maintenaunce of the Arrians heresie Emongest other to note to you one or two euen in the. 48. homilie whiche is the verie nexte before this that you alleage here the Catholikes for mainteining the equalitie of Christe with God the father are nombred emongest heretikes and in the. 45. they are called heretikes that holde that the blessed trinitie is equall of like substance and auctoritie And therefore in suche places as this auctor who so euer it be dissenteth from the common faithe of Christes churche we haue iust cause to suspect that there this heretike who hath it appeareth ouerronne the whole hath dipped in his fingres and therefore that we reiect As in this place it is likely that he thought to make a waie for his heresies by chalenging to be tried by the scripture onelie the common request of the Arrian heretikes because the worde they saide Homousion was not to be founde in the scriptures But nowe if these wordes were Chrisostomes owne and not put in by the heretike yeat foloweth it not that because the churche is to be tried by the scriptures onelie that therefore all other questions maie be decided by the same alone For God whose wisedome diuised whose holie spirite brethed whose finger wrote the scriptures as for heretikes that coÌ„temne the auctoritie of the churche he hath so disposed them as Tertullian writeth that they might ministre them Lib. de praescript aduers haeres matter so hathe he againe for them that shal be content humblie to rest in the lappe of the same made that matter by the scriptures so clere that a catholike man maie be bolde to prouoke an heretike yea all the heretikes in the worlde to dispute by scripture onelie of that question whiche and where is the true churche And suerlie so was it expedient that it shoulde be that the churche whiche shoulde iudge of the true sense and meaning of the scriptures shoulde by the scriptures be so euidentlie proued that about that their might be no wrangling As it is not to be merueiled therefore if anie catholike man giue councell to proue the church by the scriptures the scriptures speaking of the churche as hath S. Austen more plainelie then they â—narrat in psal 30 doe of Christe him selfe and therto being writteÌ„ so euideÌ„tly that the textes making for the trial therof nede no interpretatioÌ„ Lib. de vnitate ecdes ca. 16 so can you not reason that all other controuersies in semblable wise must be tried by the scripture because the scripture is more ambiguouse in other maters and because the church is proued so plainelie that it might afterwarde hauing the continuall assistence of Goddes holie spirite and being the piller of truthe assuer vs being in doubte of the true meaning of scripture And thus muche for answere to your long place alleaged to so little purpose out of that auncient auctor printed withe Chrisostome and of long time takeÌ„ for him By whose auctoritie lest the worekes of S. Clement making so muche against youre newe A sleight of M. nowells doctrine might get anie credite being here alleaged by this auncient auctor printed with Chrisostome and of long time taken for him you toke youre pen in to youre hande and cut that sentence clene awaie Hauing nowe spent youre store of testimonies brought fo 74. b. 9 by you to proue that the scripture alone ought to be the iudge of all controuersies you returne to youre olde plea so often auouched and neuer proued that we be the phariseis and therfore can not be the true churche of god that you alleage scriptures against vs as the Apostles did against the phariseis of whom and vs you saye furder as foloweth And I am suer that the high prieste withe his Iuishe churche Nowell b. 29. was able to saye as muche for the ordinarie succession of the highe priestes his predecessours euen from Aaron vntill his time for antiquitie for consent and for vniuersality against Christe and his Apostles so fewe in comparison and as it semed latelye start vp as yowe are able to saye for youre churche or againste vs. But yeat we doe thinke that the worde of God as it was alleaged by Christe and hys Apostles againste the saide high prieste and his churche so maye it and ought it allso to be alleaged by vs againste youre highe prieste and youre churche cet What so euer the Phariseis had to saye againste the Apostles Dorman for them selues they had not this to saye whiche we haue againste you that theire churche was by the testimonies of the Scriptures promised to continue for euer The Apostles proued to them the contrary oute of the scriptures if you can doe the lyke to vs and shewe by euident scriptures that the churche of Christe shoulde for the space of fiftene hundred or nine hundred yeares either be ouerthrowen and at the length restored by a newe Messias we renounce the benefite off succession we giue ouer antiquitie consent vniuersalitye and what so euer elles Thus alleaged the Apostles the worde of God against the Phariseis Thus must you alleage it against vs if you will alleage it at all And whether you be so or no the true church of god seing it Nowell fol. 75. a. 23. is in question and a greater doubte and controuersie emongest men I am suer then can be aboute the sense of anye place off the scripture yow shall neuer be hable to make anie exception to the scripture as no competent iudge in controuersies but we shall be able ten tymes more to make exception to youre Pope and his churche as no indifferent nor meete iudge We make no exception nor euer did againste the scripture Dorman as of it selfe an incompetent iudge to determine controuersies This we saye that the frowardenes of men addicted to mainteine their once receiued opinions maketh that the scripture is not alone sufficient to decide the same till the church haue giuen sentence betwene those that shall thus contende which is the true meaning of the scripture How the scripture decideth controuet
with his father is in the * Note same momēt of time handled with all mens handes Thus it appeareth by Chrisostome that Christe is not called out of heauen but being present there with his father is also truly in the sacrament We abhor youre figuratiue presence your tropicall eating We alowe not these meanes because by the scriptures it is manifest that Christe excludeth suche meanes him selfe and of his infinite goodnes giueth him selfe corporally to vs. Wherefore there is betwene vs and the Swenckfeldians in this pointe no conformitie at all The nexte point that you compare vs in to the Swencfeldians fo 86. a. 6 Nowell is because they forbid the Scriptures vtterly we forbid them to be reade of the laitie keepe them in an vnknowē tongue and burne them written in knowen language There was neuer yeat any such prohibitiō that the learneder Dorman sorte of the laitie did not or might not reade the scriptures If to the vnlearneder sorte it were not permitted you shall finde that it proceded rather of reuerence towardes the scriptures and feare of that whiche nowe we see come to passe lest while euerie man should folowe his owne sense the worlde might be filled full of errours and the holie scripture as it happeneth to thinges that be common contemned and set at naught then of anie suche minde as with the which those heretikes reiected the scripture We burne Tindalles testament we burne Mathewes Couerdale his and Geneua Bibles not because they are scripture but because they are by false translations poisoned scripture If the mother take the poisoned breade oure of the childes hande you cā not infer hereupon that she will giue it no breade at all We agree not therfore in this point with Swenckfielde Yow procede in youre comparisons and saie Thow must not be perfecte in the scriptures say these false papistes Nowell to all laye men it is ignorance that is the mother of deuotion it sufficeth a laie man to haue fidem implicitam an implicate faithe c. We saie not that men must not be perfecte in the scriptures Dorman The learned laye mē that be and in al ages haue bene of one faith with vs so excellētly learned and much more perfectly traded in them then perhappes you would doe sufficiently A lye 71. couince this to be a manifest and a grosse palpable lye He that saide that ignorance is the mother of deuotiō if he so saide ment not to exclude the knowledge of any necessarie point of oure faithe but onely the desire of such curiouse vnderstanding the which as being vnknowē it could not make men the lesse Christiās so were it likely to bring to passe that the thinges which vnknowen before they reuerenced and honoured religiously they shoulde nowe first being knowen begin to dispute vpon from disputing come to doubting and frome doubting if not to denieng yeat to lesse esteming of them With whome if you be offendid aske S. Augustine why he taught him to Contra epist Fundam Manich cap. 4 saye so before whose wordes are these after that he had spoken of the more learned sorte caeteram quippe turbam non intelligendi viuacitas sed credendi simplicitas tutissimam facit For the reste of the multitude it is not the liuelinesse off vnderstanding but the simplicitie of beleuing that maketh them moste sure Lo M. Nowell you maie heare by S. Augustine that it is no suche absurditie nor commeth not so nere to Swenckfeldius heresie as you woulde haue it to measure the peoples knowledge Oure forefathers that contented them selues with the knowledge off the articles off their faithe the ten commaundementes of almighty god although it please you sclaunderously to saie of them that they coulde no more explicate what they beleued then can a Popeniaye passed yet so farre youre chattring pies and iangling Iayes in all ciuile honestie and godlye deuotion as the speache of a man passeth that of a Popiniaye I call all indifferent men to witnesse Nowell 28. a. And the papistes speake of the holye Scriptures not onelye as vnreuerently and abhominably as euer dyd Swenckfielde but Borowed oute off the Apologie doe farre passe him in all outrage calling the Scriptures most contumeliously and blasphemously a nose off wax and affirminge it to be but an vncerteine thing and like a rule of leade appliable to euerye wicked sentence and to all purposes except it haue the popes direct on as a moste certeine and infallible rule Dorman It is easy M. Nowell to be perceiued howe you quarrell aboute nothing and for lacke off better stuffe thinke to stuffe youre boke with suche trifflng toyes as these are In the wordes that you alleage oute of Pighius what harme is there I praye you What blasphemie haue you founde fol. 87. a. 6 Pighius belied Is Swenckfielde you saye calling the scriptures deade lettres more wicked thē is Pighius blasphemouse in terming it a nose of wax Why content youre selfe M. Nowell he calleth it not a nose of wax You beely him deadly His wordes are velut nasus A lye 72. cereus like a nose of wax Is it all one to be and to be lyke So doe you also falsifie those other wordes of his tanquam plumbea quaedam regula as a certeine leaden rule and make the comparison betwene the heretike calling the scriptures deade lettres and Pighius terming them a rule of lead a nose of wax and aske what difference there is betwene them whereas if the wordes had bene trulye compared it had bene eth for anye man to haue saide that the difference is greate seing that Pighius spake but by the waye of similitude to signifie how ploiable the scriptures were to al purposes not to condemne them as Swenckfielde did but to warne men in the interpreting of scriptures to folowe that piller of truthe the common sense and sentence of the catholike churche for those are his wordes By this meanes who can let you to quarell with the scripture it selfe and saye that it speaketh vnreuerently of Christe whome it calleth a stombling stone yea you maye finde faulte with 1. Petri. z. Matt. 4. 1. Thess 5. Apoc. 3. e◠16. Christe him selfe that likeneth his owne comming to iudgement to the comming of a theefe If you thinke you haue anye vauntage at Pighius or anye catholike man elles for sayng of scriptures that withoute the direction off the churche they be vncerteine and appliable to euerye wicked sentence as for this you note vs also fol. 86. b. I reporte me to youre selfe whether this be true seing that for this sentence of his of all other moste wicked Swenckfielde hym selfe alleaged scripture Although this sayng also to this effecte be not originally the saing of Pighius but of Tertullian Lib. de praescript aduersus haereset that auncient writer who writing a treatise euen off purpose to displaie the maners and nature of heretikes after that he hathe
call it maie be taken as it is for good and sufficient Youre seconde answere for the first it semeth that youre Euill maners of rulers no cause to with drawe obedience selfe mistrusted and therfore added this as it were to vndreprop it is of all other moste vaine and fonde For what scripture haue you what Doctours what councelles if it were graunted to yow that the bishoppes of Rome haue bene of late yeares wicked men to proue that because of their euill maners their subiectes maie forsake them Oure Sauiour saide of the Phariseis allthough Matth. â—3 naughty and wicked men to his disciples that no man shoulde withdrawe his obedience from them but euery man Doe what they taught to be done but not what they did them selues vpon the which wordes S. Austen saith Illa ergo De doctr Christ lâ—b 4. Cap. 27. cathedra non illorum sed Mosis cogebat eos bona dicere etiam non bona facientes Agebant ergo sua in vita sua docere autem sua cathedra illos non permittebat aliena That chaire therfore being not theirs but Moyses his compelled them doing euill to speake good thinges They did therfore in their owne life their owne deedes but to teache their owne an other mannes chaire woulde not suffer them If moyses his chaire had this priuileage as if yow wil beleue S. Austen it had that they that possessed it how vile so euer their lyues were were yeat assured allwaies to teache no euill doctrine what obiect you for defence of youre running oute of the church and forsaking the head therof the euil life and wicked maners of theÌ„ that of late yeares haue you saie sitten in Peters chaire for whome oure Lorde praied that his faithe Lucae 22. might neuer faile as though oure Lorde god had only remembred the Iues and forgotten his churche But considre I praie yow M. Nowel against what men yow speake Yow reason against the gouernement of the bishoppes of Rome whose succession hath continued these 1500 yeares and holde that because of the euill maners of the latter popes they are not to be obeid as who woulde saie so long as their life was vpright and maners honest they were to be obeied otherwise this exception shoulde be in vaine Noweturne that parte of the wallat that hangeth before yow and is euer in youre eyes behinde and placing the other before loke vpon youre owne bishoppes not yeat settled in full 15. yeares quiet possession See whether they that before cried out vpon ambition pride couetousnes lacke of hospitalitie and suche like haue not in these fewe yeares ouertaken the bishoppes of 900. yeares before them and gone beyonde them toe What were to be loked for then might yow quietly continue after one hundred yeares that haue profited in wickednesse so muche in these fewe Might not youre scholers thinke yow euen by youre owne lesson bothe nowe and then giue yow ouer in the plaine fielde But if there be no remedie but that yow will nedes conclude thus of the popes of this latter age by which I thinke yow vnderstande as yow are wont all since S. Gregories time and without anie greate streining of curtosy him toe that because of their euill maners they were no bishoppes at all then giue me I praie yow leaue good sir to saie as muche to yow being as yeat no bishop but taking vpon yow to reproue the chiefe of al bishoppes as did S. Cyprian to Pupianus iudging his rulers no lesse then yow doe nowe all the latter popes Quis est enim hic superbiae tumor c. VVhat swelling pride is this VVhat arrogancie Lib. 4. epist. 9. and puffing vp of minde for the to call to thy examination thy rulers and priestes and except we make oure purgation before the and be absolued by thy sentence for the space of six yeares neither had the brotherhode anie bishop neither the people any heade neither the flocke anie shepherd neither the churche any gouernour neither Christe any bishop nor God any prieste Is it not so with vs M. Nowell not for the space of six yeares but for the continual space of 900 if it were true that yow Absurditie saye Should not the church by this meanes haue beÌ„ without any heade at all vniuersall or particuler Seing that all other bishoppes thorough out the worlde haue bene made bishoppes by the popes who being them selues no bisshoppes coulde not haue the auctoritie to make other And then will it folowe also that the churche hauing no bishoppes coulde haue no priestes if no priestes no sacramentes rightely ministred beside infinite absurdities mo that will folowe if that of all other moste foolishe doctrine of youres were true that naughty maners shoulde make of bishoppes no bishoppes Thus youre double answere made to my simple collection being confuted it remaineth that either yow confesse the collection to be good or seke out newe matter to impugne it One sclaunderouse lye of youres there remaineth yeat to be confuted Which allthough to the learneder sorte be nedelesse yeat for their sakes who be of the simpler with whome youre chiefe labour taken in youre boke is to deface me I shall shortly answere therto in mine owne defence Nowell fo 5. b. 23. In the conclusion it is to be noted when Basile speaketh of all the bishoppes of the East as the shepherdes striken M. Dorman altering the nombre speaketh it of the Pope as the only shepherd Here appeareth M. Nowell youre singuler honestie who burne with suche a hatred towardes my persone that so that somewhat you maie saye to ease youre stomacke yow passe not all is one to yow by what right or wrong For I A sclaunderouse lye 6. neuer alleaged these wordes as the wordes of S. Basile but alluded only to the scriptures where the prophete hathe Zachar. 13. Percute pastorem dispergentur oues Strike the shepheard and the sheepe shall be scattred Yow haue therfore delt vncharitably so falsely to sclaundre me and giuen the worlde withall to vnderstande that youre maliciouse affections beare no lesse swaye in youre pen in writing then in youre tongue in preaching That the historie of Nouatus is truly applied and that I am cleere from those lyes which M. Nowell sclaunderously laieth to my charge The. 4. Chapter Yow say M. Nowell that I maie be ashamed to forge so manifest alye as that Nouatus exacted an othe against the Popes supremacie Nowell Fo. 7. q. 3 or that yow folowe Nouatus in exacting the like othe as he did and to proue this conclusion of youres you laie for a ground that Nouatus his othe is not onely vnlike but cleane contrary to youre othes that the controuersie betwixt Cornelius and Nouatus was not whether the B. of Rome were the supreme heade as it is nowe betwene yow and vs but whether Cornelius or he was by right the B. of Rome I neuer saide that Nouatus exacted an othe against
processe plaing the ape in mocking mowing and tossing of suche graue auctorities as maie serue for the confirmation thereof yow haue not impugned my proposition but scoffingly confirmed it Which maner of answering how it is to be liked I praye the discrete reader to iudge Of the necessitie of one heade in Christes churche The 11. chapitre When I minded to handle in writing the preeminence and superioritie of the B. of Rome ouer Christes vniuersall and catholike churche and considered first that the scripture it selfe then the fathers and councelles finally the examples of the primitiue churche alowed the same I laied for a fundation to builde vpon that there must nedes be one heade in Christes churche to gouerne it Not as though if to the wisdome of him who dothe in his wisdome all thinges it had so semed the gouernement of Aristocratie that is to saie off the best and wisest men might not haue bene preferred by him which is Lorde ouer nature before the rule of Monarchie that is of one alone whiche is moste agreable to nature And for this cause I saied that of necessitie it must so be Which necessitie if I had not bene able to proue as the contrarie shall hereafter appeare by that that you keping youre selfe to the title of youre boke haue onely reproued and not disproued anie one reason off myne yeat must all men off necessitie nedes confesse that seing Christ committed in the scriptures the whole charge of his church to only Peter giuing him auctoritie to feede al Lābes and shepe seing that the fathers with Ioan. 21. such cōformitie confesse the same of Peter and his successors as namely to omit other because I haue hādled this matter elles where and this is not the place propre therefore Chrisostome who saieth that Christ committed the whole charge of all to Peter and his successours nedes I saye must Homil. in Maeth 55 li. 2. de Sacerdot all mē acknowledge the necessitie of that one heade which by suche good proufes they see confirmed although I nor any man elles were able to proue the same by reason To make the matter more clere by example the churche of Christe holdeth that oure blessed ladye was a perpetuall virgin aswell after the byrth of Christe as before Eluidius the heretike holdeth the contrarie If I now to ouerthrowe Eluidius shoulde first place this proposition for my fundation to builde vpon against him That of necessitie that womā what so euer she were of whom the Sauiour of the worlde should take fleshe ought aswel to be preserued pure that that place might not be defiled through which Christ him selfe had passed after her bringing furthe as before it was preserued from being contaminat because he should passe through if this proposition were not proued or coulde not by reason or scriptures be proued woulde yow then that Eluidius shoulde go from the receiued faith of the churche and saye there neded no further battery or vndermining to be made to ouerthrow that which is manifestly proued in the persone off oure lady by the faithe of the churche as the matter is here in the personne of the pope What if disputing against a Iewe or infidell that woulde denie that Christ suffred death for the synnes of the world I should laye for the fundation this saing of the gospell Oportebat Christum pati c. Luca. 24. If Iwer not able to proue this necessitie because goddes omnipotent power might by other meanes haue wrought our saluation doth it by and by folowe that the infidell hath proued his purpose that Christ did not suffer death for vs I wright not this as though I mistrusted the prouing off this proposition of mine that there must be one heade c. but to encountre with you who beinge comen but thus farre beganne to repent yow of the long iourney that yow had to make and therefore to abridge the same thought here to make and therefore to abridge the same thought here to make the reader beleue that it shoulde be nedelesse to goe so farre as to Rome to the Popes owne sight that so youre shunning of the matter might seme to come of politike forsight not of dastardly cowardnesse I saide that the state of goddes people in the olde lawe and experience of ciuile gouernement did proue the Nowell Fol. 29. 2. 23. necessitie of one heade Yow answere that as goddes people in the olde law were one seueral people and had one high priest so that no further can be gathered thereof but that likewise in euery diocesse or countrie it were good to haue one chiefe bishop to rule in the cleargie Oh M. Nowell think you thus to ouerbeare youre pore Dorman neighbours You must remembre yow must remembre that you fight against truthe that will not so be outfaced You must remembre that when we talke of the Iewes as of the people of God we doe not in that point recon them as one seuerall people They were in dede seuerall in respect of other natiōs which had forsakē God but neuer in such sorte seueral as though the whole church of god were not vnder the gouernemnet of their lawe and chiefe priest They were therefore a figure not onelie of one diocesse or one countrie but of the whole churche that now is and made the churche that then was And so the example holdeth still You make my reason taken frō the exāples of kingdomes fol. 30. a. 21. societies families etc. and applied by force of greater reasō to the church to come from S. Cyprian to Pighius to D. Harding and so to me The mo that haue it the gladder I am But I pray you what is this to the purpose whose it be except yow doe this to shewe youre selfe to be a man of greate reading and ignorant neither in the olde writers nor in those of latter time What so euer yow make of me or how so euer it please you to take me I am not iwisse so verye a dolt but I could haue made this reason euen by the experience of those thinges which ronne dailie into myne eyes and neuer haue loked either in S. Cyprian or Pighius or borowed it off D. Harding and had not youre memorie failed you you could haue saide youre selfe that I tolde yow that experience was the thing that moued me to saye it Whose argument or reason so euer it be blinde yow saie it is That let indifferent eyes trye M. Nowell I reason thus Euery kingdome hath his seuerall king euery people citie towne village house and so furthe haue their seuer all head or gouernour ergo the whole churche which is but one diuided into many membres as saieth S. Cyprian must haue one heade as wel as hath one kingdome one people one citie c. Now what faulte finde you Li. 4 ep 2. with this reason I praie you that see so clerely and haue euē youre eies as a man woulde saie in youre handes
thought that he woulde in this case make lesse prouision for his churche then a temporall king will for the due administration of his lawes and the preseruing of vnitie emongest his subiectes Neither is it anie iniurie to the scripture or derogatiō to the maiestie thereof that the malice of men maketh it lesse sufficient to condemne heresies especially seing as Tertullian saieth the scriptures haue bene Lib. de praescript haeretic 1. Cor. 11. by the will off God so disposed as that they might ministre matter to heretikes seing it is writtē that there must be heresies which cā not be withowt the scriptures To this obiection of myne that the scriptures be so written that there was neuer heretike yeat that dyd not alleage scripture for the maintenaūce of the same and that thought not by the scriptures him selfe wel able to defende the same note I besech the good reader that M. Nowel maketh here no answere at al. Onely he maketh against this an other obiectiō that so the pope maye vnder b. 5. the name of the church mainteine and defende all errours and superstitions Whiche if it were true what woulde folowe other of this conclusion but that there shoulde be no iudge at all Is not this a propre kinde of answering trowe you But because the matter shall not remaine in that incerteintie I will M. Nowell answere youre reason although you woulde not answere mine I saye therefore that the pope as heade of Christes churche that is to saye defining or decreeing anye thinge concerning the affaires and busines thereof neuer erred yeat nor euer shall I proue it by auctoritye and by reason By the auctoritie of oure Sauiour him selfe who praing that Peters faithe might not faile coulde Lucae 22. not but obteine Whiche priuileage so obteined seing that Christe builded his churche not to continue for Peters lyfe tyme but for euer we maye not doubte but that it was giuen also to his successours S. Augustine as I noted before Epis 165. applied the wordes of Christ spoken of the Phariseis sitting in Moises chaire Quae dicunt facite quae autem faciunt Matth. 23. nolite facere Loke what they bid you doe doe it but do not as they do to the bishoppes of Rome succeding Peter and addeth that in so doing oure faithe shal be suer and certeine as the whiche being placed not in man but on God can neuer be scattred with anye tempest of schisme You haue the auctoritie of the Scripture you haue the iudgement of S. Augustine that Peters faithe shall continue in him and in his successours that to doe as they commaunde is to make oure faithe suer and defensible against the tempestes of all schismaticall stormes Now harken to reason Christe promised for euer to abide with his churche S. Paule calleth it the Matt. 28. 1. Timo. 3. piller of truthe If Christe be with it it can not erre if it be the piller of truth it admitteth no falsehode if it can admit no falsehode the pope whiche is the heade thereof and appointed by God to gouerne it in earthe can not in the gouernement thereof erre For if the heade might erre then might the whole body which is bound to folow the heade And thus bothe by auctoritie and reason by experience of these 1500. yeares it appeareth that there is greate difference betwene the two likelihodes that you put in the pope and in other priuate men touching the interpretatiō of the scripture And therefore vppon the ouerthrowe of this downe commeth all that you builde thereupon eitherin this place or elles where Hauing nowe taken youre pleasure sufficiently at vs comparing vs with Annas and Caiphas calling vs theeues aduersaries of the ghospell guiltie of manye heresies corruptions of religion and false superstitions you entre in to a common place of councelles whereof you saye as foloweth But the aduersaries off the Ghospell deale thus with vs Nowell b. 20. The Pope and all hys cleargye being guiltie off manye heresies c. and thereof accused doe assemble them selues together in a councell in the whiche nothing maye be moued muche lesse determined but suche as pleaseth the Pope him selfe there is enquirie made of vs who doe accuse them thereoff and offer to proue it and there vnhearde and vnseene we are condemned of our aduersaries c. Yow here note in the margent for the proufe hereof Dorman that nothing maie be moued in the councell but suche as pleaseth the pope Pighius in his 6. booke and first chapitre of his Hierarchie This place yowe alleaged before As I tolde you then so doe I nowe that you haue beelied Pighius Supra fol. 24. b. For he saieth not as you doe here that nothing maie be moued in the councell but suche as pleaseth the pope He saieth Haud feré fit almoste it is not otherwise not denieng as you saye he dothe that it can not be otherwise The wordes of Pighius note rather the greate diligence of the pope whiche is suche that when all the worlde shall meete together in a generall councell they can not for the moste parte name anye thinge to be refourmed or concluded that the Bishoppe of Rome with his learned councell about him hath not before forseene and handled then take awaye libertie from anye man to moue anie doubte to be resolued not considered before by the pope That the pope moueth ordinarily suche doubtes to the councell i st that offende you be angry with S. Peter his predecessour who practised the same first in the generall councell mentioned in the Actes of thapostles You accuse the pope and his and Act. 15. offer to proue it It is in deede the cōmon bragge of you al to saie you can proue vs Phariseis corrupters of religiō that the churche of Christe hathe vtterly failed and so furth The whiche if yow feare to proue in generall councelles yeat yow might me thinketh giue vs a taste of your prouffes in youre poisoned writinges To that that yowe complaine that yow are condemned vnhearde and vnsene we saie as yow gessed we woulde that yow might be hearde if yow listed against the whiche answere of oures yow replie How we are called and how we maie be heard let Iohn Husse Nowell fo 70. a. 2 called by the emperour Sigismunde his saulfe conduct vnder his greate emperiall seale to the councell of Constance with Hierom of Prague who bothe were contrary to the faithe giuen them by the greatest christian prince in the world condemned and burned to asshes be an eternall witnesse yea let their owne decree made in the saide councell which was that no faithe nor promise is to be kepte to anie heretike nor that anie man by anie promise standeth bounde to an heretike c. be a perpetuall testimonye off the same Beholde howe manie lyes in howe fewe lynes Iohn Dorman Husse being called to the councell of Constance brake the conditions of his saulfe conduct
8. cause in the conclusion of my firste boke Reade the discourse annexed vnto the Apologie of Staphilus latelie set forthe in English Reade the fortresse You shall The first parte the last chap. finde there a numbre of your assertions holden generallie of al protestantes to be olde condemned heresies in the first six hundred yeares you shall finde that the doctrine of Iohn Caluin youre Maister bothe in the doctrine of the blessed sacrament of the altar and of baptisme is stuffed with a nombre of olde heresies condemned also in the primitiue churche Discharge youre selues first of these heresies and then saye that we saie onelie that you be heretikes We saie not onely that we be the churche but we proue it also and haue made it moste euident that you can by no meanes be the churche As of late hathe bene proued answere it when you can In some countries if the partie accused pleade not guilty and saye a. 19. Nowell naie to the crime obiected if he by diuerse tormentes enforced to confesse doe still mainteine his naye he is discharged and let goe But it can not helpe vs accused as heretikes to denie the false accusation c. I blame you not M. Nowell though for heretikes yow Dorman clayme the fauour that is wont to be shewed to murderers theues and other malefactours allthough this reason of youres that heretikes the greatest offenders that are for no crime is so greate as the faulte of heresie shoulde haue this fauour because other malefactours lesse offending haue it woulde scarselie be founde sounde if it shoulde be by the rigorouse rules of logicke examined But it nedeth not it hath other faultes enough For allthough in some couÌ„tries the parties accused denieng the faulte in suche wise as you saye be vpon their denial discharged and let go yeat is there no countrie where if the partie accused for thefte would confesse the dede but saye it were no faulte he shoulde be be so discharged the lawes coÌ„demning theft by deathe and let go And yeat this is youre case M. Nowell For you confesse the dede You denie for example sacrifice and praier for the deade you stande in defence of it as did Aâ—rius a Epiph. lib. 3. haeresi 75. condemned heretike aboue 13. hundred yeares ago Onelie your denial is that it is no heresie which thinge if it might be laufull for euerye heretike to doe and to escape euerye one giuing to heresie the title of true doctrine howé manye thinke you woulde be condemned Did not Michael Seruetus put to deathe by the procurement of Iohn Caluin at Geneua denye that he was an heretike as you doe Did Caluin anye wrong to him in condemning him who saide he coulde bring as good testimonie of his innocencye oute of Gods worde as you saye you can for youre heresies Did Cranmer any wrong to Ioane of kent because she saide she was no heretike Doe not the Anabaptistes dailye saye the same It is toe greate an absurditye M. Nowell and sauoreth of your cholere ouer much that while you labour to bring the catholikes in hatred as though they showed you lesse fauour then they doe to theeues murderers and other offendours you forget that in so doing you shewe youre selfe M. Nowell playeth the proctour for all heretikes a proctour for heretikes of all sortes and that yeat you misse of your purpose the fauour of the lawes extended to heretikes being greater then is practised vppon anie other trangressours For make the coÌ„parison aright and you shal make it betwene a theefe sorie for his theft or murderer for his offence and an heretike denieng and repenting his heresies Nowe who knoweth not in this case who hathe the greatest fauour the heretike vppon repentaunce being receiued to mercy whiche fauoure other offendours haue not To make suche false and vntrue comparisons as you doe if it procede not of ignoraunce M. Nowell surelye it commeth of malice and that is worse Where you saye A lye 64. b. 6. that I deuise God to be absent that I saye that he is dombe I saide not so Why doe you falsely burden me with that whiche I neuer thought I sayde that he is In my boke fo 9. b not present with vs in suche sorte as that we maye see him and speake with him face to face to be resolued at his mouthe of suche doubtes and questions as shoulde rise emongeste vs. Saie not you the same Doe you call him then dombe or saye that he is absent If you doe not why I more then you Nowell fol. 71. a. vnto fol. 74. a. 26. in which compasse the testimonies brought to proue that only Scripture is sufficieÌ„t to determine all coÌ„trouersies are examined Dorman S. * Depecca merit libr. 1. cap. 22. Ad Cresc lib. 2. cap. 31. 32. Augustine contending againste those who doe attribute Goddes grace and giftes to the the worthynesse of mennes merites concludeth thus Cedamus consentiamus auctoritati Scripturae sanctae quae nescit falli nec fallere Let vs giue place to the auctoritye of holy Scripture which can not be deceiued nor deceiue We saye with S. Austen Let vs giue place and agree to the auctoritie of the holy Scripture which can not be deceiued nor deceiue Will not two heires striuing aboute their fathers good des saie as muche as this commeth to of his testament desire that it maie be brought furthe and both of them offer to be tried by it and to stande to it and yeat the wordes being doubtefull require a iudge notwithstanding S. Augustine preferreth the Sriptures before the priuate opinion off Saint Cyprian So doe we toe and before anye other doctour disagreing from the scripture expounded to vs in generall councelles and by common consent of all nations Howe farre this sense whiche you woulde wrest out of Saint Augustins wordes that the church maie not be iudge of the true meaning of the scripture Contra epist fundament Manicheor cap. 5. is from the mynde of S. Augustine his wordes in an other place doe well witnes where he protesteth that he woulde not beleue the Ghospell if the auctoritye of the churche did not moue him thereto How often beside doth Lib. 2. contra Iulian. alibi he in writing against Iulian the Pelagian obiect to him the doctours of the church expounding the scriptures againste his opinion As for that whiche you bring oute of Saint Augustine against councelles it is falselye and vntrulye applyed For b. 10. Lib. contra MaximinuÌ„ 3. cap. 14. Saint Augustins yealding to the aduersaries whome he sawe frowardly bent to stande to the hereticall councell off Ariminum dothe no more proue him to be of the mynde to eneruate and weaken thereby the auctoritye of generall councelles then if I woulde saie to you disputing with you vpon the reall presence of Christe in the sacrament and knowing that you were as wholly bent to mainteine the Confession of Augspurg
warned vs that their propertie is whē scripture is brought to them either vtterly to denie it either elles if they admit it to peruert it with false and vntrue gloses concludeth in this wise Ergo non ad Scripturas prouocandum est nec in his constituendum certamen quibus aut nulla aut incerta aut parum certa victoria est Therefore that is to saye we maye not appeale to the scriptures neither is the strife to be ordered in them by whome either there is no victorie to be gotten either vncerteine or not verie certeine Nowe that you haue done with Pighius you flee vpon Hosius as fierce as a ramping Lion of Cottes holde of whome you saie as foloweth Nowell fol. 87. a. 17. Hosius youre greate estate for learning and vertue c. in comparing the ghospell written in paper and inke with the churche which he calleth the liuely gospell as though the other shoulde be called the dende ghospell goeth as neare to Swenckfielde as foure pence doe to a grote I thinke you will not youre selfe denie if you were well Dorman apposed M. Nowell but that the lettre of the scripture compared with the sense thereof is deade From whiche phrase and maner of speache howe farre wyde are those wordes Ioan. 6. of oure Sauioure The lettre sleeth it is the Spirite that quickeneth Although yowe might if you had not made a vowe to interprete all thinges to the worst haue giuen a more gentle interpretation to these wordes off Hosius It is a true proposition that Hosius vsed that scripture is A. 27. the worde not of God but of the diuell as heretikes doe alleage it Why seing that Hosius toke it out of S. Hierome as yow confesse doe yow not refell and confute it but vsing youre auctoritie barely denie it Why reherse yowe not his M. Nowell alleageth Hosius wordes falsely wordes wholly but cutt awaie these in the middest of the sentence cui absit vt quicquam anteponendum esse putemus before the whiche scripture God forbid we shoulde thinke anie thing to be to be preferred For so hath Hosius Scriptura quomodo profertur a catholicis est verbum dei cui absit vt quicquam anteponendum esse putemus quomodo profertur ab In fine lib. 4. contra Brentium haereticis est verbum diaboli The scripture as it is brought furth by the catholikes is the worde of God before the whiche God forbid we shoulde thinke anie thing to be to be preferred as it is alleaged of the heretikes it is the worde of the diuell Yowe sawe well inough if yowe shoulde not haue cutt awaie these wordes all the grace of the comparison in this pointe had bene marred by Hosius humble and reuerent speaking of the scriptures but so were yow blinded with malice that all other yowe thought woulde haue bene as blinde as yowe and no man haue noted so foule a faulte Yow staie not here but to bring Hosius vttrely out of cōceit and to deface him with all men you charge him withe comparing the scriptures Dauids psalmes withe rymes onlye Nowell fo 88. b. 11 written by princes in oure daies with a blasphemouse derision in matching them with fabulouse poēsies Hosius compareth not the scriptures withe rymes but Dorman Hosius once againe misused by M. Nowell sed by M. Nowell with metres quibus dei laudes celebret to praise God by With suche meetres what contempte or contumelie is it I praie yow to compare the scriptures Are not Dauides Psalmes suche meetres yow haue therefore once againe delt vnhonestly with Hosius to snatche a parte of his wordes and to make youre vauntage therof leauing those that most manifestly declare his meaning He matcheth not at all the scriptures with fabulouse poesies that is an other lie of you A lye 73. res He saieth that as learned and vnlearned write poêsies euerie where so maie euerie kinge or prince or anie other write to the honour and praise of God without restreint The comparison is not betwene the scriptures and poêsies but betwene the libertie that men haue to write of the one argument or the other And thus is this greate blasphemouse blast God be thancked well ouerblowen The Iues are not suffered by the pope to vtter most horrible A lye 74. b. 27. blasphemies against Christe It is a horrible lye We haue not giuen ouer preaching of goddes worde fo 89. a. 16 Lett those countries where Catholike religion florisheth conuince yow to be a liar Where there are in most meane A lye 75. townes mo sermones in euerie of them in one daie then are commonly in London in three They be ordinarie also thorough oute the whole yeare not bought with monie as youres be We barre not the people from reading and hearing A lye 76. it To that I answered before We saie not that the holie ghoste vseth to come from aboue into oure churche without all helpe of meanes as hearing preaching or reading A lye 77. That is the fistht lie made within the compasse off these fewe wordes Thus yow see good readers I trust euidently that he comparison made by me betwene the protestantes and the Swenckefeldians is in that pointe of building vpon like groundes the one parte to abolishe scripture the other to ouerthrowe the generall heade of Christes churche in earthe like and therefore trulie made The whiche is confirmed the more for that that as I haue shewed before the aduersarie not susteining to trie the comparison by such wordes as I made it leaueth oute their reasons wherein they meete and then crieth Lo Sir yow see a greate likenesse betwene them fol. 84 a. 9. Yow see beside how to compare vs with Swenckfield he hathe wrested mangled and falsified the wordes of Pighius and Hosius and laste of all charged the whole numbre of catholikes with most euident and apparent vntruthes That Cardinall Hosius was impudently beelied and sclaundred by the Apologie of the churche of Englande that M. Nowell continuing the same addeth more matter therto The 25. Chapter ITRVST that who so euer shall reade that conformitie betwene Nowell fol. 90 a. 1. the papistes and Swenckfeldius and bothe theire heresies before declared and specially by the wordes of Pighius and Hosius him selfe shall vnderstande that Hosius was not without cause charged with some affinitie to Swenckfeldius his heresie c. Is the matter nowe come to affirnitie M. Nowell Well Dorman let it be so I nothing doubte the learned readers iudgement euen therein also Although this can not be denied but that your Apologie which yow take vpon you here to defende in the first editiō therof charged Hosius with these wordes Nos inquit ipsas scripturas quarum tot iam non diuersas modo sed etiam contrarias interpretationes adferri videmus facessere iubebimus c. VVe saieth Hosius wil bid the scriptures them selues whereof we see so many not diuerse
for him selfe When this question off the blessed sacrament shall be the principall matter betwene yow and me yow shall haue a cause why these wordes I am the true vine proue not so well a transsubstantiation as the other This is my body doe In the meane season where as yowe aske what a rule yowe shoulde haue had if Christe B. 1. had saide likewise This is my true and verie bodie as he saide I am a true or verie vine trulie M. Nowell no highlier should the matter haue bene taken then it is For to vs Christian men it is inough that Christe hathe once saide it is his bodie We woulde beleue an honest man vpon his worde if he shoulde tell his name and saie that he were suche a one and neuer put him to saie that he were trulie suche a one I see no cause but yowe might if it pleased yowe haue as good an opinion of Christ Who notwithstanding to stop the mouthes of suche Capernaites as yow are hathe added also the worde truly saing For my fleshe is truly or verilie meate and my bloude is verily drinke The whiche wordes Ioan. 6. Hilarius expounding saieth that there is no place left to doubte Lib. 8. de Trinit of the truthe of the fleshe and bloude of Christe seing that bothe by oure Lordes owne wordes and oure faith it is trulie fleshe and trulie bloude I saide that if because the Apostle or Christe him selfe vseth a figure in one place we must thinke that in all other he neuer spake otherwise by that abhominable doctrine there were no let if a man woulde be so wicked to holde that Christe were not the true and naturall sonne of God but by adoption onelye and bring for the maintenaunce of that wicked heresie that texte dedit eis potestatem filios dei Ioan. 1. fieri He gaue them power to be made the sonnes of God An obiection left vnanswered by M. Nowell To this yow answere nothing at all I trust it be not yow knowe the rule since yowe were prolocutor in the conuocation because qui tacet consentire videtur he that holdeth his peace semeth to consent Charitie woulde rather interprete your silence to procede of lacke of iust matter to answere and so doe I allthough yowe deale not allwaies so frindely with me What so euer I haue saide here of the controuersie of the B. 9. sacrament out of place leauing my purposed matter vnproued is yow saie verye fonde What so euer I haue saide here of the sacrament hath bene vttred vpon the occasion of Luther and Caluins disagrement who because they can not be reconciled by the scriptures that blocke laied by you in the waie that the scripture onely is the sufficient iudge to ende all controuersies rising vpon the doubtefull meaning of the lettre is remoued and so my purposed matter proued that there must be an other iudge then the scripture What haue you nowe wonne to shewe you that I am not ashamed of mine owne phrase As before I proued that the Arrians Lutherās and Caluinistes coulde by no meanes by onelie scripture be ouerthrowen so nowe I proued the same by the Anabaptistes alleaging in like maner suche places of scripture as they bring for their defence And as you answered before nothing to the obiections of the Arrians Lutherans and Caluinistes so doe you here passe ouer in silence the answere to the Anabaptistes and purge your selfe and youre companions that yow be no Arrians no Anabaptistes withe fo 103. a. 8 M. Nowell leaueth vnāswered that to whiche he should answere and answereth that that nedeth no answere Nowell the which Heresies you were neuer charged by me You take holde also of those wordes of mine where I saie that the catholikes doe represse and ouerthrowe the brutishe opinions of the Anabaptistes To the which being but wordes incidently cast in I marueile how anie man reading youre boke can forbeare laughing to heare you slipping from the principall point make this solemne answere to that which neded none at all VVe answere that it is moste certeine and well knowen to the worlde that oure men haue saide and written more against them then euer did the papists VVherefore we be therein as in all other thinges in deede the Catholikes and not they What so euer you haue written M. Nowel against them Dorman you are notable by the scripture alone to ouerthrow them whiche is the thing that being denied you ought to haue proued But by the waye note I praie the that art the learned reader a clerckly conclusion of M. Nowelles whereby he A clerckly cōclusiō made by M. Nowell proueth his companions to be the Catholikes and not vs because they haue saide and written more against the Anabaptistes then we haue done Is not this trowe you a notable argument to proue that no man is a catholike but he that hath spoken and written against heretikes nor he neither if an other haue saide and written more then he You saie that the mention that I made of the Swenckfeldians b. 8. Arrians and Anabaptistes was alltogether impertinent to my purpose I haue proued the contrarie before nowe let the learned reader iudge thereof You charge me with declaiming against the scriptures and worde of God That is a lye You call it a seely similitude and cruell likelihode A lye 79. Nowell b. 12. that I make betwene the Iuishe high prieste and the pope I maruell not that you so call it for it cutteth the throate of all youre heresies You vse often and gladly I perceiue this worde Iuishe high prieste as though you woulde therby insinuat to the simple and vnlearned that my example were naught as taken from the Iewes the very name of whome to those that haue more zeale then knowledge yow knowe to be odiouse and therfore against that meaning I warne the vnlearned that the Iewes that were then whereof this Iuishe prieste was heade were goddes church and chosen people You cal the pope and papistes heretikes and their doctrine heresies You acknowledge him not to be the supreme heade or gouernour ouer all the churche As long as you be not able to proue it it maketh no matter youre tongue is not autentike Nowe where M. Dorman woulde proue the conference of Nowell fol. 104. a. 1. scriptures a vaine or euill thing because the Arrians and Anabaptistes vsed it and vs to be heretikes as they be because we vse the same groundes to witte conferring of scriptures together he might as well reiect all alleaging of scripture because the Diuell vsed it and conclude that we be of the diuell because we vse the same groūdes that he doth that is to say the alleaging of the scriptures Yea and he maye by the same reason ▪ finde faulte withe Christe oure Sauiour and his holy apostles who doe so muche vse the same alleaging of scriptures I go not about to proue the conference of scriptures a
therefore they be no parties thereto Whereas yowe promise so largely on the diuelles behalfe yow maie be bolde for as muche as he is hable to doe he is at youre commaundement To youre conclusion that the worde of God is the true B. 13. iudge in all controuersies and doubtes of religion I saie as I saide before that when the church hathe giuen sentence of the meaning and right vnderstanding of the scripture that then in that sense and no otherwise the scripture is the true iudge in all controuersies otherwise I saie that the worde of God lieng yeat in the lettre as it were in the huske is an vncerteine iudge to determine controuersies what so euer Luther Caluin or their adherentes the rest of that blacke garde do saye to the contrarie or be M. Nowell neuer so angry therewith Whereas I declared before what starting holes the Arrians Fol. 105. a ▪ 23. rians Anabaptistes Lutherans Caluinistes and other heretikes haue founde out for the mainteinaunce of their religion and that vpon the same groundes and principles anye desperate heretike that is maie mainteine anye heresie yow take occasion of that worde desperate heretike to reherce once againe a place of S. Cyprian where he calleth by the same name yowe saie all suche as thinke one bishop inferiour to an other as I and all other papistes Cap. 11. sub finem doe but the contrarie to that I haue showed before And surely to thinke thus if it be to be a desperate heretike M. Nowell contrarie to him selfe or a desperate heretike and papist by his owne confessiō or a papist either I praie yowe what be yowe M. Nowell that in youre boke fol. 32. a confesse that in euerie prouince there be certeine chiefe prelates Doeth not the worde chiefe import that there be other inferiour prelates Which worde if yow will nowe reuoke againe if youre bishop will not I trust youre pretensed Archebishop will call yow to a count for it That whiche foloweth fol. 105. b. and. 106. a. because it conteineth but vaine wordes and hathe bene in diuerse other places handled I will here passe ouer Of the place of S. Hierome taken out of his epistle to Damasus and that it hathe bene alleaged to the purpose without wresting or falsifieng The 28. chapiter PROSEcuting this controuersie whether the scripture as we haue it written were hable alone without other meanes to determine all controuersies the whiche the heretike seeth being proued that it can not it will nedes folowe that there must be some other iudge to supplie that office I saide that S. Hierome notwithstanding his greate and excellent knowledge in the tongues woulde not take vpon him to leane in the discussing of doubtes to that rule of theirs to laie and confer together one texte with an other but referred him selfe to the see of Rome c. whose example I exhorted also other to folowe To this M. Nowell answereth as foloweth S. Hierome saieth no where that he would enot compare the Nowell fol. 106. a. 23. scripture together for the discussing of doubtes as M. Dorman woulde beare vs in hande and S Austen saieth he woulde doe it and exhorteth other to doe the same Where doe I beare yowe in hande that S. Hierome Dorman saide that he woulde not not compare the scriptures together A lye 81 ▪ for the discussing of doubtes Why noted you not here the leafe and side I denie not but that it is a necessarie and verie proffitable waie of reading the scriptures to conferre the places together And so doubte I not but that S. Hierome aswell as S. Augustine vsed to doe The whiche maketh verye muche for the Catholique opinion that all questions can not be discussed by thys conference off scripture For iff they coulde what neded S. Hierome so well learned as he was in this controuersie betwene the Catholikes and the Arrians to write so far out of the wildrenes of Syria to Damasus the pope a man allthough singulerly well learned yeat not comparable with him for learning to be resolued at his mouthe what parte to take whereas he had with him the scriptures of God by the whiche by youre saing if he had diligently conferred them together he might haue bene fully instructed in al pointes What ment he elles that he vsed not nowe his accustomed maner of conference but that he sawe that this was a question that coulde not so be tried and therefore he woulde consulte Damasus who being he persuaded him selfe the successour of Peter shoulde be able sufficiently by the grace giuen to that office to resolue him in that which by all his owne labour and diligence he were not at all or not so soone and certeinly hable to finde out S. Hieromes wordes to Damasus Bishop of Rome make nothing Nowell against vs nor with M. Dorman For what merueile is it if that S. Hierome borne in a coast of Italy christened at Rome brought vp at Rome and made prieste at Rome woulde in the faithe of the blessed Trinitie rather ioyne him selfe in communion with Damasus bishop of Rome a learned and godly mā then with Vitalis and Meletius whome M. Dorman calleth Miletus and Paulinus who were Antiochiā bishoppes and therfore strangiers to him and also not cleere from the Arrian heresie That you reporte of S. Hierome that he was borne in a Dorman The place of S. Hieto me to Damasus Tom. 2. epist ad Damasum examined Lib. de ecclesiastie scriptorib coast of Italie it is vntrue For he was as he writeth him selfe borne in a towne called Stridon in the borders of Dalmatia and Pannonia whereas Italie it is well knowen neuer reached so farre or if it had neuer did the peculier prouince of the bishop of Rome extende thither for whiche respect Damasus might be accounted his bisshop But supposing this to be as true as the rest that he was Christened at Rome c. Yeat the causes whiche S. Hierome addeth why he ioyned him selfe to him rather then to anie other maie euidently make faithe that neither because he was borne in a coaste of Italie neither because he was christened brought vp or made prieste in Rome but because he was the successour of Peter he ioyned him selfe to hym in communion rather then to anie other For that ment he by these wordes Beatitudinituae id est cathedrae Petri communione consocior To youre holinesse that is to saye to Peters chaire am I ioyned in communion Tell vs if you can what there neded here anie mention of Peters chaire to be made but that he woulde declare therby the only respect of his communicating with him to be because he was the successour of Peter An other cause which yeat might trulier be called a cause or reason of the first cause why he ioyned him selfe to him that sate in Peters chaire your selfe woulde seme to haue founde out in these wordes folowing But will M. Dorman saye S. Hierome
there is no nede to write or saye anye thinge because I haue no ennemie at all And therefore he addeth For M. Dorman can not be ignorant that we in all oure Sermones Nowell fol. 123. a. 25. and writinges of suche matters doe make a moste cleere and euident difference betwene the functions and offices of princes ciuile magistrates and priestes ecclesiasticall ministres and neither did we euer teache that princes ought neither did they euer desire to execute the offices ecclesiasticall off ministring the Sacramentes preaching excommunicating absoluing and suche like I am not ignorant in deede of this qualification of youres Dorman inuented the rather to intice some seely soules to the taking of youre othe Whome in deede I maye well call seely that will therby any thing the soner be moued For youreselfe are not ignoraunt I trowe M. Nowell that the causes why we stande with you in this matter are not onelye for ministring the Sacramentes for preaching excommunicating absoluing but as I tolde yow and you here guilefully conceale this power extendeth farder to the giuing and making of lawes for the churche to auctoritie to iudge of doctrine wherewith the meÌ„bres must be fedde whether it be souÌ„de or otherwise for these be offices that beloÌ„g to the heade not to the membres excepte you will saie that the sheepe ought to iudge what meate is conuenient for them not the shepherde Againe to appease schismes is the office not of inferiour meÌ„bres but of the heade it selfe and yeat belongeth as youre selfe haue graunted to the chiefe prelaces of euery prouince Finally to be heade of the churche is to haue the gouernement of so manye soules as be in that churche whiche because no laye man c. can haue in Note this reason particuler bishoprickes it foloweth that none can haue ouer the whole churches of a realme vnited Of the whiche matter Chrisostome saieth At quum de ecclesiae praefectura Lib. 2. de Sacerdotio de credenda huit vel illi tam multarum animarum cura agitur vniuersa quidem muliebris natura functionis istius moli ac magnitudini coedat oportet itemque bona viroruÌ„ pars But when the question is of the gouernement of the churche of the committing to this man or that the charge of so many soules then must all the kinde of women giue place to the burden and greatenes of this office yea and a greate parte of men also You bring the examples of king Dauid Salomon c. who you saye had auctoritie in gouerning of the cleargie and churche matters though they might not execute all ecclesiasticall functions and offices This matter is answered in my first booke fol. 31. sequ Thither I referre the Reader What though oure moste graciouse souereigne ladye being a Nowell woman haue not so greate skill in feates of warre as haue her capitaines haue not so good knowledge in the lawes of her realme as her Iustices and other learned men in the lawes haue thoughe she haue in al good learning and in the scriptures toe more knowledge then had anie of youre popes these seuen hundred yeares I beleue and therfore no lette in that pointe but she maie be heade of the whole churche aswell and rather then the pope What if she fitte not in publike iudgement nor determine controuersies as doe her Iustices c. what I saie if she can not execute all ciuile offices in her owne persone woulde yow therfore take from her her ciuile principalitie c Surely yow maie with as good reason doe it as yow would take awaie her superioritie ouer her cleargie from her for that she can not maie not nor will not execute ecclesiasticall functions Your comparison is false M. Nowell For there is no lawe Dorman neither of goddes nor mannes that forbiddeth a Quene although a woman to sitte in iudgemeÌ„t or to be present with her armye in battaile as Delbora did both So that the not Iudic. cap. 5. doing herof procedeth not of lacke of habilitie or power as contrarywise it doth that the prince meddleth not with ecclesiasticall matters whose condition in that that he is a laie man maketh him vnhable for that function Wheras M. Nowell noteth the Quenes maiestie to haue more knowledge in all good learning and in the scriptures toe then had anye pope these seuen hundred yeares as I am not he that would abase those her maiesties rare giftes of excellent learning and princely qualities farre more plentifully by the goodnesse of God bestowed vpon her then anie other so noble prince man or woman that this daie liueth but as my bounden dutie is rendre moste humble thanckes to almighty God therefore so can I in no wise but abhorre this moste impudent parasite good Reader who vpon his beelefe as though he had made neuer a lye in all this booke before A lye 82. addeth this of all other the moste shamefull Whiche I nothing doubte but her graces moste rare modestie can so euill abide to here that longe ere this she hathe iudged him in her princely harte to be as he is a vaine lyer and shamelesse parasite Whome if her grace shoulde commaunde to An Emperours rewarde for a flatterer be rewarded for his labour as Sigismunde the emperour rewarded one of the same profession whome praising him aboue measure he buffeted as fast answering him when he asked why beatest thow me Emperour why bitest thow me flatterer as the rewarde were princely for suche a gift so were the facte worthy so mightie a prince But nowe AEneas Siluius li. 2. Com. de reb gest Alphonsi to the good Reader what cause haste thowe to trust hereafter this mans beliefe in anie matter touching the pope the learning considered of Innocentius the thirde Aeneas Siluius called Pius the 2. Adrianus 6. Marcelâ—us 2. Paulus 4. and Pius 4. that nowe is and diuerse other within that compasse as to the Learned is not vnknowen This parasite staieth not here but going farder sayeth Though the Quenes maiestie haue not that vnderstanding of Nowell fol. 124. a. 1. all the affaires of her realme that experience in all thinges that actiuitie in executing them that hathe the whole bodye of her moste honorable councel yeat dothe the whole bodye of her councell though moste honorable humbly acknowledge her to be their heade only proude priestes because some thinges are incideÌ„t to their office which the prince maye not * VVhat if the prince listed nor list not to doe refuse their Souereigne to be their supreme gouernour You beely all priestes M. Nowell and maye be ashamed to make the bishoppes only councellors in religion whom Dorman before you confessed by S. Cyprians minde to be iudges in earthe in Christes steede whereas you would here make them no iudges or iudges in the princes steede You deale vntruly to sclaundre the cleargie as you doe In whose defence I wil saye as S. Ambrose