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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A15057	An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controuersie of faith. Whereunto is added in briefe marginall notes, the summe of the defence of those reasons by Iohn Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Iesuit, with a reply vnto it. Written first in the Latine tongue by the reuerend and faithfull seruant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Diuinitie, and the Kings Professor and publike reader of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the vnlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authoritie) into the English tongue; by Richard Stocke, preacher in London. ...; Ad Rationes decem Edmundi Campiani Jesuitæ responsio. English	Whitaker, William, 1548-1595.; Campion, Edmund, Saint, 1540-1581. Rationes decem. English.; Stock, Richard, 1569?-1626.; Whitaker, William, 1548-1595. Responsionis ad Decem illas rationes.; Durie, John, d. 1587. Confutatio responsionis Gulielmi Whitakeri ad Rationes decem. Selections.	1606 (1606)	STC 25360; ESTC S119870	383,859	364

but because he was forced to follow a fellow that rode a wilde goose chase The benefit of which epitomie may be this If you reade the summe of euery answere before you reade each particular answer it will well prepare you to conceiue of the answere it selfe if after which I could wish also you would doe then it will present to you the whole as it were in a mappe When you haue read both and the whole booke if at any time you remember some thing you would see more particularly and can but tell or make some nie coniecture in what answere it is laid downe with reading of one page you may finde in what 〈◊〉 of the 〈…〉 be found Finally let it incourage you the ●●ther to reade this Treatise because you shall finde in it whatsoeuer is by our late Papists in their P●●phlets and Treatises which they haue audaciously sent abroad in these few last yeeres when the lawes haue been laid asleepe and the iust seueritie of them greatly qualified I say whatsoeuer is in them either obiected against our Church and doctrine or spoken in their owne defence is here to be found and a solid answere giuen vnto them if any thing would giue them satisfaction If you bee but well exercised in this one booke out of it you may gather some smooth stones as out of a brooke by which though you should not be enabled to hold any long warre with a cunning Papist yet you may smite him in the forehead and fell him groueling to the earth 1. Sam. 17. as Dauid did the vncircumcised Philistine The Apostle exhorts that we earnestly contend for the maintenance of the faith Jude vers 3. which was once giuen vnto the Saints A naked and vnarmed man may well contend but shall neuer be able to maintaine any thing committed to him but it will soone be taken from him so may I say for the truth it is not words but weapons and weight of diuine reason that must defend it therefore must euery Christian souldier that thinkes to haue the crowne take to him such armour as Gods Armourie will affoord him Now those weapons if so be you cannot fetch so readily in the word of truth it selfe because of your infirmitie they are here brought to your hand and you withall are led by the hand to the particular places where they are in the word it selfe Now the Lord of hosts strengthen you in the truth and arme you with his grace that you may be able to stand against all the enemies of your saluation 2. Tim. 4.7.8 and that you may fight a good fight and finish your course and keepe the faith that you may obtaine the crowne of righteousnes which the Lord the righteous Iudge will giue at the last day vnto all those that loue his appearing Yours euer in the Lord Richard Stock The summe of the answere to the first Reason which is holy Scripture 1 PApiste account themselues disarmed if they must fight onely with the scriptures Page 24. nota 2 Of the number of the Canonicall scriptures that Luther and Caluine and their followers haue put out none which antiquitie and the purest Churches haue receiued Page 26 3 Campian was an Apostata not Luther Page 26 4 Luther onely thought not basely of the Epistle of S. Iames but antiquitie also Page 27 5 All Protestants highly reuerence this Epistle of S. Iames. Page 28. 30 6 Luther neuer writ so contempteously of the Epistle of Saint Iames as Campian affirmes Page 29 7 S. Paul and the Fathers haue taught iustification by faith alone Page 30 8 The place of S. Iames expounded and prooued not to be contrary to the doctrine of iustification by faith onely Page 31 9 Not Protestants of late but the Fathers of old haue put out of the Canon Tobias Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of Machabees and diuers other bookes Page 32. 33 10 The Papists cannot defend the Articles of their religion by the Canonicall scriptures but are forced to flye to the Apochrypha Page 34 11 Duraeus contrary to the Councell of Trent denieth traditions to be of equall authority with the scripture Page 34 12 Protestants haue denied no one booke or word of any booke of Canonicall scriptures Page 35 13 Angels do defend the elect but their hirarchy and degrees are without warrant of the word and their worship flat against the word Page 35. 36 14 Man hath no fr●●will by nature Page 37 15 The bookes of the Machabees are reiected by diuers Fathers and the Laodicene Councell ibid. 16 Neither prayers to the dead nor for the dead are lawfull Page 38 17 Se●●en bookes of the Apochrypha were put out of the Canon by Hierome a thousand yeares before Caluine was borne Page 39 18 The 3. and 4. bookes of Esdra sometime were highly accounted by the church of Rome Page 39 19 Protestants haue not cut out of the Canon sixe epistles of the new Testament but honour them much neither haue the Lutherans Page 40 20 Augustine and Hierome in their difference for the number of the Canonicall bookes reconciled Page 41. 42 21 Meli●o Bishop of Sardis though he put the booke of Wisdome in the Canon yet he excludeth all the rest Page 43 22 The Laodicene Councell forbiddeth the reading of those bookes which are without the Canon and alloweth only the reading of th●se which we put in the Canon of the old and new Testament 43.44 The Councell of Carthage allowed them only for manners nota for three hundred yeares these bookes were not in the Canon so confesseth Duraeus nota Page 43 23 The Councell of Carthage denied the Pope to be vniuersall Bishop Page 43 24 The Papists crueltie farre surpasseth the Protestants iust seueritie Page 45 25 The scriptures haue in themselues many proofes that they are the word of God but the certaine infallible and sauing assurance is from the spirit of God Page 46. 47 26 Campian scorneth the iudgement of the spirit in respect of the iudgement of the Church as if they were contrary Page 46. 48 27 The Church can make no writing Canonicall neither doth the authority of it depend on the Church It hath in it selfe his owne authority Page 48 28 Without the spirit a man may haue some knowledge of the scripture but no faith The testiments of the spirit as not 〈◊〉 confute others but confirms our selues Page 45. nota 29 The Lutherans did not onely surde somewhat lacking in the Apocalyps but ouen antiquitie receiued it not you re●ected it Page 50 30 Luther preferreth the Gospell of S. Iohn and Paules Epistles before the other Gospels and why Page 50. 51 31 What a Gospell is and who especially is an Euangelist Page 51 32 Campian slandereth Luther as touching S. Lukes Gospell Page 52 33 Beza hath no more offended in charging S. Luke with a solecisme then Hierome did in charging S. Paul Page 53 34 The words of institution in the Supper of the Lord a little examined

learne from him many new and excellent points This your first reason seemed very iust in your conceit to maintaine your glorious challenge of disputation with some of the learned of our Vniuersities But Campian you had delt a great deale wiser for your self if either you had neuer conceiued thes● reasons or streightway vpon the birth smothered them For before by your great challenge you begat a maruelous and wonderfull conceit of your selfe in euery mans mind and now when they shall read● those slender reasons of yours they will easily perceiue there is no cause why you should take so much vpon you and they wil tontemptuously deride you as you well deserue hisse you out of their scholes Therefore the counsell which Archidamu● gaue to his Sonne headily venturing to right with the Athenians the same doe our Vniuersitie men giue to to you Either adde to thy might or abate of thy mind for no man Campian euer tooke more vpon him and performed lesse than you haue done But let vs see what other things you bring vs. EDMVND CAMPIAN The second Reason which is the right sense of the Scriptures ANother matter that prouoked me to vndertake this enterprize and that enforced mee little to feare these my aduersaries slender armies is the vsuall inclination of my enemie in expounding the Scriptures full of deceite and void of wisdome These things you Philosophers would quickely finde out and therefore I was desirous of your audience Let vs demaund for example sake of our aduersaries what caused them to deuise this new opinion whereby Christ is * This is false for we doe not exclude Christ from the Supper excluded out of the mysticall supper If they name the Gospell we ioyne with them the very words they are for vs. a Matth. 26 Mark 14. Luk. 22. This is my bodie this is my blood which words seemed to b Luther in epist. ad Argen Luther so forcible that when he earnestly desired to be of Zuinglius mind because by that meanes he might haue wrought the Pope most displeasure yet notwithstanding he yeelded being ouercome and vanquished by the most plaine text of Scripture and as vnwillingly confessed that Christ is truly present in the most holy Sacrament as the c Matth. ● Marke 1. diuels in time past being ouercome with miracles with outcries confessed that Christ is the sonne of God Goe to then the written word doth fauour vs the controuersie is about the true meaning of the written word Let vs trie out this by the words thereunto adioyning d Luk. 22. Mattb. 22. Corpus meum quod pro vobis datur sanguis meus qui pro multis e●lundetur that is My bodie which is giuen for you my blood which shal be shed for many Yet the matter goeth hard on Caluins side and maketh very manifestly and plainely for vs. What say they else Conferre say they the Scriptures together Agreed The c Iohn 6. Matth. 16. Marc. 14. Luc. 22. Gospels make for vs f 1. Cor. 10. 11. S. Paul accordeth also The words the sentences the whole connexion of Scriptures doe often most reuerently repeate the bread and the wine a not able miracle heauenly foode his flesh his bodie his blood Here is nothing figuratiue nothing obscured by doubtfull speeches yet notwithstanding the aduersaries stand stiffely in their opinion and neuer cease wrangling What shall we then doe I hope antiquitie may be heard and that the reuerend hoare head of Fathers of all former ages to Christs time more nigh farther off from the time of these controuersies may be their iudgement determine this debate which we cannot end amongst our selues being suspected one of another * This is false for in this cōtrouersie we willingly admit Antiquity as witnesse They cannot away with that they say then they are betraied They crie out for the sincere and pure word of God they vtterlie reiect all mens commentaries trecherouslie and witlesselie done We will vrge them with the word of God they darken it we call the Saints in heauen for witnesses they refuse them In few words this is their drift that vnlesse thou wilt stand to their owne iudgement that are guiltie there is no iudgement to be had And so they behaue themselues in euerie controuersie betweene vs. As concerning grace powred into vs from heauen inherent iustice the visible Church the necessity of Baptisme Sacraments and sacrifices meritorious works of good folke hope and feare inequality of offences the authoritie of S. Peter the keyes vowes Euangelicall counsailes and other like controuersies we Catholikes in sundrie of our books in our mutuall conference in churches in schooles haue brought forth many and waightie places of Scripture and haue both tried and applied the same They haue scorned at this We haue alledged the interpretations of the auncient Greeke and Latin Churches they haue refused them What say they then marry that M. Doctor Martin Luther or else M. Philip Melanthon or certainelie M. Zuinglius or without doubt M. Caluin and M. Beza haue faithfullie entreated vpon these matters Can I imagine any of you to be so stuffed in the nose that being forewarned cannot quicklie smell out this subtile iugling wherfore I confesse plainlie that I am desirous to haue audience in the Vniuersitie scholes that after I haue called these Ruffian-like knights out of their dark dennes into the open and plaine field I may before your eies discomfite them not by my owne strength which am not to bee compared with the worst of an hundred of our side but by the puissance of the cause and certaintie of the truth which we maintaine WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the second Reason WHat could be said touching the Scriptures wee haue heard wee must proceed to heare what can bee said for the interpretation and exposition of them for our vsuall inclination in expounding the Scriptures saith Campian hath encouraged and incited him earnestly to desire this encounter And we also Campian haue long ago desired to buckle with you herein And at length the Lord hath brought you out of your lurking holes into the broad light that we might trie it out with you but what is our disposition you speake of It is full of deceit say you and void of wisdome Thus you being a man of small reach and lesse discretion do conceite our inclination Assuredly the matter you haue now in hand is a cause of great waight for the force the substance and as it were the soule of the Scripture consisteth in the meaning very well said Hierome The Scriptures are not in the letter but in the vnderstanding Contra Lucifer in 1. cap. ad Gila and in another place a DVR Then Luther and Caluin obtruded a new Gospell vpon the Church when they brought in a new sense of the words such as the whole Christian ●orld knew not yea it had a far other sense of the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 138. If this last

and Page 210 14 There is a negatiue ignorance which is not sinne Page 208. 209 15 Ch●●●t ●●oke vpon him the punishment due to sinne both ●gnorance and d●ath Page ●●9 16 That which raised such feare and horror in Christ was not the feare of naturall death but the bitter wrath of God against mankind pag. 210. and 211 17 What the hell was which Christ suffered and as man feared pag. 211. nota 18 Christ suffered in soule as well as in bodie pag. 211. 212 19 Christ did not goe into Limbus after his death pag. 214 20 Many auncient Creedes both in the Romane and East Church haue not this article of Christs descension into heil pag. 215. nota 21 What the image of God was in man before his fall pag. 216 22 The whole image of God is not razed in man but some reliques are remaining Naturall gifts are corrupted supernaturall distinguished pag. 216. 217 23 That which is in the regenerate of themselues is corrupt that which they haue from God is contrarie to their corruption pag. 218 24 Sinne is not a substance nor a meere priuation but an accident and a corrupt habit like to a disease pag. 220 25 Concupiscence is sinne and so iudged by Augustine vpon great and weightie reason ibid. nota 26 Sometime he calleth it no sinne in opposition to actuall sin pag. 221 nota 27 Sinnes are not equall neither doe Protestants so teach they all deserue eternall death though some more some lesse pag. 221. 222 28 Grace is double either the free mercie and loue of God towards vs which is without vs in God or those gifts which flow from this grace and this is in vs. pag. 223 224 29 Christs righteousnes is onputed to vs as our sinnes to him Christ hauing paid our debt the paiment must needs be ours by imputation and if Papists allow the imputation of the righteousnes of Saints why should they so much scorne the imputation of Christ his righteousnes ibid. nota 30 Charitie cannot iustifie vs because it is imperfect for that which is faultie cannot iustifie vs. ibid. 31 Imputed and infused righteousnes goe together in one and the some man Iustification and sanctification are distinguished in the word pag. 225. nota 32 The regenerate by grace cannot so resist their temptations that they should neuer sinne as the example of S. Paul and others manifest pag. 226. 227. nota 33 Our righteousnes is a reall relation 228. nota 34 All our righteousnes being stained cannot iustifie vs and faith hope and charitie being imperfect cannot doe it pag. 229 35 Christ is he that couereth vs by whose righteousnes wee are adorned Our righteousnes is the couering of the fault pag. 231 36 Faith alone iustifieth but it is not alone when it doth iustifie pag. 232 37 The reasons why wee are exhorted to performe workes and obedience as also that wee are commanded to apprehend Christs righteousnes by faith pag. 230 38 A man ought and may be certaine of his saluation by the certaintie of faith pag. 232. 233. nota 39 Many are deceiued with a conceit of faith but he that hath it knoweth certainly that he hath it pag. 233. nota 40 From Gods predestination a man may be sure of his perseuerance so the Fathers teach yet a man must vse the meanes pag. 234. 235 nota 41 The number of Sacraments are but two in the Church the noueltie of the other fiue not any antiquitie for them and pregnant reasons against them pag. 237. nota 42 Hugo de S. Victore and Peter Lombard brought seuen Sacraments first into the Church No Councell before the Florentine did euer confirme them ibid. nota 43 Popish ceremonies in Baptisme are new ibid. nota 44 Protestants haue both bread and wine and the bodie and blood of Christ Papists haue no bread nor wine nota pag. 239 45 Baptisme is both a chanel of grace and that which confirmes grace but giueth not grace by the word wrought Duraeus contrarie to the schoolemen maketh it but an instrument pag. 239. nota 46 The Baptismes of Iohn and of Christ were both one in cerem●●ie in doctrine and in grace pag. 240 47 The place against it Matth. 3.11 Act. 19.4.5 expounded and answered ibid. nota 48 Baptisme is not so simplie necessarie to saluation that the want of it will condemne but the neglect or contempt of it is a sinne pag. 241 49 Papists thinke infants dying without Baptisme are d●●●●●ed A barbarous and a se●selesse opinion and against all reason ibid. nota 50 Infants may haue faith as they haue life and know not of it pag. 242 51 The Sacrament is a Sacrament to all without faith but not a sauing Sacrament to men of yeeres without faith yet to infants it may be because the spirit worketh secretly and powerfully ibid. nota 52 Luther earnestly held that Baptisme ought to bee giuen to children and thought they had faith pag. 243 53 Caluin against the Anabaptists proued the baptisme of infants not by tradition but Scripture pag. 244. nota 54 Campian hath no cause to vpbraid Protestants with corruption of manners so long as Rome is so corrupt as as is and publike Stewes maintained in it pag. 245 55 Luthers lasciuious speech obiected by Campian plainly excused and a worse obiected of Pope Clements 246.247 56 Luther makes three causes of diuorce and the Papists many moe pag. 246. nota 57 Mariage is most necessarie for men who cannot liue chast and commanded pag. 247 58 Mariage is oftentimes simply better than virginitie though this be to be embraced when a man hath the gift that he may more freely serue the Lord. pag. 248. nota 59 The speech of Lauther saying The more wicked that thou art the necrer art thou vnto grace defended in his true sense pag. 249 60 How all our good actions are tainted with sinne and so may be called sinnes in Gods seuere indgement and yet good and to be done pag. 250. nota 61 The good actions of those who are once in Christ though tainted are acceptable vnto God because he lookes vpon the person not the worke pag. 251 62 The law belongs to Christians for a rule of their life though it be abrogated by the new couenant For they are deliuered not from the obedience of it but the curse of it by Christ pag. 252 253. 254. nota 63 God respects the good workes of his but not to instification pag. 254. nota 64 The iust not onely liues but is iustified by his faith and so much the place of Habacuck prooueth ibid. nota 65 Workes not the cause but the manifestation of righteousnes out of Thomas ibid. 66 They who haue broken hearts and contrite spirits are fittest ghuests for the Lords table neither is this against faith pag. 255 67 Luther was not against publike confession but a priuate auricular confession of all sinnes to a Priest onely when by the word it may be made to others pag.

Therefore you see there is no reason why for this cause Luther should either find fault with or feare the Epistle of S. Iames. And thus Augustine hath reconciled these two Apostles Iames and Paul that you may see that we are not broachers of any Noueltie Wherefore saith m DVR Augustine maketh nothing for you but against you WHIT. pag. 50. Augustin● affirm●th directly that S. Iames speaketh of a vaine and fayned faith which is as much as we here produce him for Augustine Aug. quaes● 85 quae●t 76. the iudgements of the two Apostles S. Paul S. Iames are not contrarie each to other when the one saith a man is iustified by faith without workes and the other saith that it is a vaine faith which is without workes because S. Paul speak●th of workes which goe before faith Saint Iames of workes which follow faith at S. Paul himselfe sheweth in many places Therefore the Apostle S. Iames would not neither ought to detract any thing from the doctrine of iustification which Luther learned from S. Paul Yea all Papists and Iesuits shall sooner be torne asunder then this iudgement of Luther touching faith alone shall either quaile or be ouerthrowne From Luther you turne the edge of your speech to the whelpes of Luther for so you as an vncleane dogge terme men famous and flourishing with all good qualities But why you should so call them I well conceiue not vnlesse it be for that they neuer cease barking against your Bishops and Monkes and other Church robbers like your selfe But let vs heare what heynous thing those whelpes haue committed They haue on a suddaine put out of the true Canon of the Scripture Tobias Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of the Macchabees and many other bookes Say you of a suddaine Campian Is it true indeed that you are such a stranger in the writings of the auncient Fathers that you know not that long agoe these bookes were raced out of the Canon Looke I pray you into Hierome and out of him call to mind what antiquitie hath done That we may know saith n DVR Hierome saith that the former Churches did not receiue these bookes for Canonicall but denies them not to be Canonicall WHIT. pag. 52. Hicrome affirmeth not only that these bookes were not receiued of the fore-going Churches for Canonical but himself o●ten times denies them to be such and plainely cals them Apoch●ypha bookes which he w●uld neuer haue done if the Church then had taken them for Canonicall yea and as Duraeus confesseth they were not so taken vntill ●lmo●t 70● ye●res af●er Christ Hierome Hieron i● Prologo Galiato Whatsoeuer bookes are more then these they are to be accoūted among the Apochrypha Therefore Wisdome which commonly is called the Wisdome of Salomon and the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach and Iudith and Tobias and Pastor are not in the Canon Will you that are but a Frier put these bookes in the Canon which Hierome following the iudgement of the auncient Church and the truth it selfe denieth to be in the Canon marke well his owne words They are not in the Canon You say that we haue dashed them out and why should we not so doe For saith Hierome they are not in the Canon Desire you any further testimonies Epiphanius saith as much as Hierome who after he had recited diuers bookes which you say we haue put out of the Canon he thus writeth as Cornarius renders his words out of the Greeke These bookes verily are profitable and helpefull Epiphan in lib. de mensur Ponder but they are not reckoned in the number of those which are receiued Therefore they are not to be found in Aaron neither in the arke of the Couenant But see out of Hierome more manifest and pregnant things Hieron praefat in lib. Solomon As therfore the Church readeth the bookes of Iudith Tobias and Macchabees but accounteth them not Canonicall Scripture so also these two bookes he meaneth Wisdome and Ecclesiasticus it reades for edification of the common sort not for confirmation of any doctrine of the Church If Campian you be ignorant of these auncient testimonies you are but a young souldier in that kind of fight where you would be thought a well experienced Captaine but if you know them you are too vniust and iniurious vnto vs to obiect to vs I know not what desporation because wee admit not those bookes in the Canon of the Scripture which Antiquitie tels vs directly were neuer admitted neither are to be admitted Caietan in cap 24. Mattb. And verily Cardinall Caietan feares not to auouch that he that writ the booke of the Macchabees in a certeine prophesie of Daniels was a lyer but the holy Ghost was neuer wont to be deceiued in the interpreting of the Scripture Now wheras you imagine that we are conuinced by those Oracles as often as we dispute against the defence of Angels as often as we dispute against freewill as often as we dispute against praying to Saints You must fi●st before you can conuince vs proue that an argument will conclude necessarily out of those bookes to confirme the doctrine of the Church which Hierome demeth and you shall neuer be able to proue though you call all the Iesuits to a consultation And seeing you obiect desperation to vs see ho● you bewray your owne miserable ●esperation who cannot establish the Articles of your faith by the Canonicall Scriptures but you she to the Apoc●ypha whose authority hath bin and for euer shall be doubted of in the Church The Lord hath commited his Will and Wo●d to writing and commended it to his Church Those writings with all diligence and piety we receiue and reuerence we are content with them and we maintaine thei● sufficiency let goe then these questionable obscure and Apochrypha bookes and out of these contend with vs about religion But your religion long agoe hath passed beyond the bounds of the sacred Scripture and hath broken forth into many superstitions And hence it is that you doe the thing than which nothing can be more malapert and intolerable that is make of like authoritie with holy Scripture not only the Apochrypha bookes but euery o DVR Pag. 5● ●●e do not aff●me Traditions to be of the same authority with the holy Scriptures WHIT. pag. 59 Though Duraeus heere denieth it yet the Councell of ●rent doth with the like holy affection and reuerence receiue and honor them as it doth the bookes o● the old and new Testam●nt See Dec●et 1. Sess 4. vnwritten Tradition whersoeuer you come by them at the second or third hand But what do I telling you of these things who shamefully haue aduentured long since to violate and inf●inge all the lawes both of God and man Take this from me if you can demonstrate that we haue condemned or reiected any one booke or any p DVR Pag. 64. You haue raced out these words out of S. Iohn Euery spirit

fellowes digged out of their graues to helpe you in your desperate cause heare me Campian that which Iewel then said most truly and confidently challenging you to the triall of sixe hundred yeares antiquity offering also to yeeld you the victory if you brought one plaine and manifest authority out of any Father or Councell that same we do all professe and promise and will surely performe it Twentie yeares are expired and not one of you hitherto could performe the condition if you perswade your selfe to haue more sufficiency hereunto then your masters before haue had why stay you why sit you still why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause But alas you are no body you haue read nothing you haue no strength answerable to such an endeuor The learned Humphrey did not taxe Iewel as if he had too liberally vndertaken for the Fathers or performed lesse then he promised but only that he had yeelded further vnto you then he needed and called backe the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures to the authorities of the Fathers which yet he did not as though he distrusted any thing the triall of Scriptures for hee knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors but that hereby he might beate downe that their insolent and most false bragge of antiquitie which preuailed with many You say further that you haue conferred sometimes familiarly with To●y Matthew and w●●led him to answere freely whether hee that read the Fathers diligently could bee of that part which ●e fauoured Although in priuate and familiar conference wee say many things which we would not haue further reported or dispersed yet I doubt not but the worthy Mathew gaue you such an answere as was both agreeable to the truth and fit for his iudgement and wisdome Wee must not in all things beleeue the Fathers nor doth our faith depend vpon their word Sometimes they haue erred and been the occasion of errors vnto others yet may we reade them by their truthes be more learned by the contrary more wary And this also thinketh Matthew Hutton that famous man whom you surmise to bee the only man amongst vs conuersant in the Fathers And this also is all our opinions After you haue thus finished your discourse you will now as you say without feare come into the battell and fight with vs. You are still telling vs of armies skirmishes warres campes and of your battailes but you should remember that the triall of warre is common to both sides and the issues of battailes vncerteine The and of warre lieth in the strength of armes not in the stoutnes of words EDMVND CAMPIAN The sixt Reason which is the foundation of the Fathers IF euer that saying a Iob. 5. search the Scriptures was loued and liked of by any which was greatly regarded and ought to be amongst vs the holy Fathers assuredly herein excelled and exceeded for by their labour and cost were the Bibles copied out and conueyed to so many countries and nations of strange languages by their great perils and torments were they deliuered from burning by the enemies and from destruction by their paines and teachings haue they been throughout expounded most faithfully they spent whole daies and nights in the study of holy Scriptures they preached out of euery Pulpit the holy Scriptures they enriched long volumes with holy Scriptures with most faithful Commentaries they explained the holy Scriptures they seasoned as well their feasting as their fasting with holy Scriptures And finally they exercised themselues euen vntill crooked old age crept vpon them in holy Scriptures And although they grounded their reasons also vpon the authority of their Auncestors vppon the common practise of the Church vpon the succession of Bishops vpon generall Councels vpon Traditions of the Apostles vpon the bloodshedding of Martyrs vpon the decrees of Pre●●●s vpon strange signes and marn●●●●us ●●●racles yet their greatest desire was especially to fill their treatises with store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures These they vrge vpon these they make their habitation to these Scriptures as vnto the coate b Cant. 4. armor of valiant souldiers they worthily yeeld the highest and most honorable place like noble captaines daily desending the Catholike Church which is the citie of God by them kept in good repaire against all mischeeuous assaults of her enemie the which thing maketh me the more to maruell at that proud and foolish exception of the aduersarie who like one that seeketh for water in the running riuer complaineth for the scarsity of Scriptures where greatest store of Scriptures are alleadged So long he saith he is content to be iudged by the Fathers as they swarue not from the Scriptures Doth he speake as he thinketh I will see then that these most famous writers most auncient Fathers and most holy men Saint Denys S. Cyprian S. Athanasius S. Basil S. Gregory Nazianzen S. Ambrose S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Augustine and S. Gregory the great shall come forth wel armed and vpholden with Christ with the Prophets with the Apostles and with the whole furniture of the Bible Grant good Lord that that religion may * And at this day the same faith flourisheth in England which those Fathers did had and defended raigne in England I say good Christ grant that that religion may raigne in England that these Fathers that embrace the Scriptures so louingly haue builded vp out of the Scriptures Looke what Scriptures they bring wee will bring the same looke what Scriptures they conferre we will conferre the same looke what Scriptures they alleadge we will alleadge the same Art thou also contented with this cough out Sir a Gods name and tell me plainly what you thinke I like them not thou wilt say except they interpret the said Scriptures rightly what meanest thou by saying rightly ô now I know after thy owne fancy Art thou not ashamed of this blind intreate dealing Then for as much as I am in good hope that in the foresaid Vniuersities that most freshly flourish there will ioyne together a great number of such as will looke into these controuersies not grosely but with sharpe iudgement and wil weigh these mens trifling answere not partially but in equall ballance I will therefore with a chearefull courage expect this day of battell as one that mindeth to march forward with the nobility force of Christs Church against a monkes● multitude of ragged Rogues WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the sixth Reason which is the foundation of the Fathers I Cannot wel cōiecture Campion what these new foundations of the fathers may bee which you propound vnto vs. As touching the fathers we haue giuen you your answere and haue plainely prooued that they affoord no foundation for you to build your cause vpō And it is probable that you thought so your self therefore you iudged it not safe for you to rest in them vnlesse you brought foorth certaine foundations by which you might strengthen the

fathers themselues For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers that you might shew you esteemed their sayings as diuine Oracles because you saw that was too slender and that no man would iumpe with you in that point you now indeuour by certaine foundations to fortifie and strengthen the authoritie of the Fathers Now the strength and as it were the bond and sinewes of this disputation is this a DVR Campian doth not dispute so but say he do what reproue you for he speaketh not of one Father but of the consent of all vvho flourished in one age whom Saint Paul saith Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church Eph. 4.11 WHIT. pag. 408. Then as you confesse I swarued not much from his sense But thinke you the reason is of force The auncient Fathers haue diligently read and searched the Scriptures therefore they neuer erred in their interpretation If i● hold in the Fathers why not in others vvhich do search the Scriptures as vvell as they vvhich if you once grant you ouerturne your owne cause And though they were Pastors of the Church yet vvere there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church vvho either vvrit nothing at all or their vvritings are perished so that vvhat they deliuered vve possibly cannot knovv vvhat a vaine thing is it then to bragge of the consent of all vvhen you can hardly name tvventy in the most flourishing age that euer vvas vvhose bookes came to our hands Besides the consent of all in one age in no controuersie can you bring against vs except it vvere in the most corrupt ages Lastly the Pastors Christ gaue to his Church vvere men such as might erre and vvho had no promise to be kept from error if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures The Fathers haue searched the Scriptures most diligently they haue heaped vp store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures they haue attributed the chiefe place to these therefore wee ought to bee content with their exposition of Scriptures and without sinne wee may desire no better This either is the sense of this place or else there is no sense in it And verely I professe you haue laid these things downe so faintlie and looselie that I can hardlie discerne their scope for what I pray you can bee spoken more loosely The fathers haue diligently laboured to vnderstand the Scriptures therefore in their exposition of them they haue neuer erred But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers which all may well be false but more then one of them cannot be true I will giue you one example for a thousand b DVR VVe confesse euery Father may err● but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did euer fall into any error which vvas contrary to faith WHIT. pag. 412. As if this vvere not a matter of faith vvhether S. Paul lyed or vvhether he ingenuously reproued S. Peter as he professed he did For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly then may it be lavvfull for vs to dissemble and after confirme it vvith a lye both vvhich are contrary to sound doctrine But particular dissentions you stand not vpon you desire to see some generall vvhen you grant euery particular may erre vvill it not follovv that all may But see an example In the Councell of Constantinople held vnder Leo the Pope the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches But the Nicene Councell vnder Iren. condemned this Canon yea and by a third Councell held in Germany this decree vvas againe condemned One of these certeinly must needs be deceiued Againe haue you forgotten that Augustine vvith Innocent the Bishop of Rome other Bishops of the Church did thinke it necessary that the Eucharist should be giuen to Infants vvhich error continued a long time in the Church Thinke you these are not points of faith S. Paul writeth Gala. 2.11 that at Antioch hee withstood Peter to his face what a kinde of opposition this was you would know but cannot of your selfe find it out You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter one Apostle another and happely you suspect some mystery may be hid in it you goe to the fathers you enquire of Hierome August Hieron in Epistol and of Augustine two very famous lights of the Latine Church What do they tell you Augustine thinke that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thoughte Hierome that he spoke fainedly If you approue the one you must needs reiect the other for you cannot consent with both Sixe hundred of this kind I could propound vnto you I know how sayth Hierome otherwise to account of the Apostles then of other writers Hieron in Epist. ad Theophilis They euer sp●●k● the tr●●● these as man haue erred in some things Yet they read the Scriptures they were conuersant in them and spent themselues wholly in meditating vpon them From these you may discerne how your accusation is most vniust and our defence most equall and iust I desire not to diminish the fathers due and worthy commendations so you will confesse they are men extoll them with all the prayses you can to the very heauens where they are now free Denizens I could wish that that which they constantly did either you would do search the Scripture or suffer vs to do then I doubt not but this fight would haue a good issue But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his owne voice and commended to our diligent search you flie from and abhorre as theeues doe the gallowes you abandon them out of mens sight and yet you haue neuer done searching for you compasse sea and land to find out old traditions and customes long ago dead and buried mens inuentions decrees of Popes the corruptions of Churches fained and forged bookes diriges scrappes dreames and fables but the holy Scripture you touch not at all lest as I suppose they would make against you At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after and search the Scriptures c DVR VVe allow all to read the Scriptures as many as can vvell and safely do it And then vve account the search good and sound vvhen men are able to interpret them not out of their ovvne heads but by the authority of the auncient Fathers WHIT pag. 415. You shew your good nature that you will not reproue that which is well done But may none else reade the Scriptures but men qualified as you write then very few must spend their labour in them But Christ commanded to search the Scriptures not the opinions and exposition of the Fathers yea and he commaunded all whosoeuer to seeke eternall life and desire to know Christ Joh. 5.39 and not the learned only as Christ hath commaunded Origen in Isas hom 1. and the ancient fathers haue done And would to God as Origen writeth we all would doe that which is written Search the

and authoritie with him and forbids all appeales to the Bishop of Rome Therefore he must needes deest your Pope who preferreth himselfe both in dignity authority before all other Bishops from all parts drawes vnto his courts all appeales i DVR Cyprian in this place speaketh not at all touching any appeale WHIT. pag. 434. If you consider the place well you shall find that he inueigheth against certaine false Bishops who being condemned by the voices and censures of the Bishops of Afrike for iust causes vvould haue the causes pleaded againe at Rome before Cornelius the Bishop And in his discourse 1. He shevved that causes ought to be heard vvhere the crimes are committed And so not things done in Afrike at Rome 2. He affirmeth that euery Bishop hath his portion of the flocke for which he must giue an account Then not the Bishop of Rome the vvhole nor the administration of all causes finally he calleth them desperate and forlorne men vvho thought the authority of the Bishops of Afrike to bee lesse then of the Bishops of other countries and so vvith reproach hee reiecteth the supreame authoritie of the Bishop of Rome Is there heere any thing lesse then vve haue affirmed Lactantius writeth that it is a thing without questiō Lactan. 2. cap. 19. k DVR Lactantius speaketh not of the Images of Christians but of the Idols of the Heathen vvhich he condemneth because they are made of the earth besides the Ieves had their Cherubins WHIT. pag. 436. He nameth not Idols but Images such as your Church is full of and so can there be no religion in it Besides your Images are no more heauenly then theirs but made of the earth as theirs who pretended for themselues as he vvriteth lib. 2. cap. 2. as you do that they vvorshipped not the Images but the God expressed by them Further for the Cherubins they were placed in the most holy place into vvhich the people might not enter not yet looke in and shevv vs particular precepts for yours as they had for theirs and vve haue done But he that commanded theirs forbiddeth euery vvhere all others There can be no religion wheresoeuer there is an image If hee now liued and saw your Churches full of images would he acknowledge any signe of true Religion Athanasius affirmeth Athanas conts a Gentas That the holy Scriptures giuen by inspiration are sufficient to instruct men in all trueth wherein with one word hee hath put to slight the whole armies of your l DVR VVill not all your Vniuersity men account you a cosener vvhen Athanasius ioyneth the bookes of the Fathers with the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 438. If Athanasius say asmuch as I affirme The Scriptures are sufficient of themselues vvhy do you reptoach me but he addeth the bookes of the Fathers he doth but not as traditions differing from the Scriptures but as Commentaries vpon them For saith he by reading of them a man may in some measure vnderstand the sense of the Scripture These vvords make not for you neither against vs therefore I vsed neither cosening nor disceite traditions Epiphanius sharply reprooueth certaine foolish women Epipham lib. 3. Haeres 79. who worshipped the virgine Mary with a certaine new kind of worship and condemneth all that superstition m DVR Epiphanius speaketh nothing of the adoring of the Saints but reproueth ●omen for offering vp sacrifices to the Virgin Mary a● to a G●●ld●●●e WHIT. pag. 440. Nay he speaketh against the adoration and honoring of Saints and not of sacrificing only his vvords are plaine ●et none of the Saints be adored The vvord he vseth signifieth to bovv and prostrate our selues and to vvorship one vvith Diuine honor vvhich being proper to God you impiously giue to the Virgin Mary and to other innumerable Saints Let none saith he worship the Virgine Mary What would he say if hee now saw not onely foolish women but also men and all mortall wights n DVR No C●t●o●ike doth offer vp sacrifice or performe vowes to the Virgin Mary WHIT. Yet you confesse you do such things to the honor of the Virgin and other Saints I pray you what may be the meaning of this you offer vp sacrifices and vowes to God in honor of the Saints let me demaund of you as Epiphanius of these women what Scriputre ●peaketh any thing of this matter Then answere your Masses are they offered to the Virgin Mary or for her whether soeuer Epiphanius saith It is foolish strange and that vvhich proceeded from the spirit of Diuels Againe who knoweth not that you offer vp prayers and intercessions to the Virgin Mary and all Saints And no man is found either so greatly couetous or so little superst●tious but he voweth somewhat to some Saint specially to the Virgin Mary offering vp sacrifices and vowes to the Virgine Mary Basil in Epist ad Cleric Neocaesariae Basil is the author that in his dayes there was a o DVR Basil doth not say it was the custome of all Churches WHIT. pag. 442. It seemeth you haue not read Basil reade the place and you shall find these words there The c●●ome we now keepe is consonant and agreeable to all the Churches of God And he reckoneth the Churches of Aegypt Afrike Thebes Palestine and all who vse singing of Psalmes custome in all Churches that the people repeated the Psalmes in the holy assemblies But in your Churches the people can p DVR As if the publike prayers of the Church did not profit the people vnlesse they vnderstand the 〈◊〉 what a foolish dreame is this WHIT. pag. 443. We had rather dreame with the Apostle then watch with you for thus S. Paul speaketh 1. Cor. 14 4.5.6 He that speaketh a strange tongue speaketh not vnto men but vnto God vers 6. If I come vnto you speaking diuers tongues what shall I profit you Strange tongues then profit not vnlesse your tongues haue some more Diuine power then the Apostles tongue had neither heare nor vnderstand those things which are read but are onely deluded with ridiculous gestures and pompous shewes q DVR Gregorie neuer thought so but in the same place he commendeth the solitary life as more excellent then any humane condition neither speaketh he of the common life of Christians but of that vvhich is spent in the duties of charity WHIT. pag. 444. I proue it easily out of his words Hierome the Philosopher saith he proposed vnto himselfe to know whether of our liues vvas more to be vvished for and more profitable to the end he might make choice of it And when he knew that euery man was not borne for himselfe only but for all others who beare the same nature with him he embraced this common life rather then that solitary life Doth he not now preferre this life and from the praise he giueth the other he hath somewhat detracted when he sheweth that it is only for themselues and so lesse

there can be any grace more ancient than faith But say you how can they beleeue who doe not yet vnderstand whether they liue or no and do they therfore not liue because they vnderstand not that they liue It is absurd Wherefore if they liue although they doe not vnderstand they do so a DVR But speake plainly if Infants haue no faith your nevv Euangelicall doctrine teaching that the force of the Sacrament doth depend vpon the faith of the receiuers must vanish WHIT. pag. 681. I do no thinke that Infants do beleeue there being neither reason nor Scripture for it And I answere that is not our doctrine you faine to bee Wee say that to men of yeares without saith it is a Sacrament but not a sauing Sacrament to children of beleeuing patents though they cannot for their yeares beleeue yet it is a sauing Sacrament as Circumcision was to the Infants of the Iewes For wee doubt not but the Spirit of God is powerfull vnto them after a hidden and vvonderfull manner As in the examples of Iacob Ieremie Iohn Baptist and others happily also they doe beleeue albeit they perceiue not that they beleeue That is hard say you bee it so Nor doe I speake these things as if I were wholy of that mind but to the end I may fish out your mind which our Vniuersity m●n doubtles make great account of But let vs heare Luthers medicine It is better saith he to omit it because except the Infant beleeue he is washed ●e●er a whit But this medicine came out of your shop not out of Luthers And indeed you haue offred vs many such like medicines very vnsauourie and ill fauouredly seasoned so that all your confections seeme to be corrupt But Luther did neuer perswade that Baptisme should be omitted he was alwaies earnest on that part that Baptisme should be giuen to Infants and therefore you are so much the more vniust in this place in that you would marre Luthers opinion with your medley For these things are so alledged by you as if Luther said it were better to omit Baptisme Therfore let vs heare Luther himself and let Campians medicine alone And yet saith he we deny not that Infants are to be baptised Luther aduers Coc●laeum nor do we anow that they receiue Baptisme without faith but wee say that at Baptisme they do beleeue by the power of the Word He addeth Or otherwise there would bee meere and intolerable lies when the Baptiser demandeth of the Infant whether he do beleeue as intending not to baptise vnlesse it be answered in the child● stead I beleeue Wherfore doth the Minister aske whether he do beleeue if i● be a certaine thing that they do not beleeue as Cocleus maintaineth Then he concludeth thus But we hold that Infants are not to be Baptised ●f it be true that they in Baptisme do not beleeue Luther then maintaineth and determineth that little children do beleeue and he reproueth the Papists because they teach things contrary each to other while they deny that an Infant hath faith and yet to the end he may be baptised they require faith of him Who seeth not to what these things may be referred so that hee must needs bee a most malicious man who maketh Luther in these words a perswader of so wicked an opinion And these things doe they speake say you being doub●full in their own mind what to maintaine positiuely Howsoeuer some doe doubt of the faith of infants yet wee all determine cleerely and positiuely that they are to be baptised Therfore there was no need that you should send for that Pacimentan● dayes-man who was alwayes more enclining to your side than to ours But why doe you obiect the Anabaptists to vs who hate vs much more eagerly than you and not without cause b DVR I knovv you doe fight hotly against the Anabaptists but vvith vvhat vveapons Caluin vvas glad to flie to the Tradition of the Church for be brought no place of Scripture against them neither could be bring any WHIT. pag. 685. You betray the Scriptures that you may establish Traditions What can be spoken either more contumeliously against the Scriptures or more for the aduantage of Anabaptists then that this their heresie cannot be cōfuted by Scripture But are you ignorant that Caluin vsed Scripture to refell this And yet he produceth these places Gen. 17.4 Matth. 19.13 28.19 which sufficiently ouerthrow the Anabaptists And in the place you alleadge hee rather renounceth Traditions then flieth to them for any defence Jast lib. 4 cap. 16. sect 8. for we haue both cōuicted them for heretikes by our arguments and also haue expulsed them as seditious and pernicious men out of our Commonwealths who if they dwelt not with you could find no place to remaine in through the Christian world You passe ouer the rest of the Sacraments which I acknowledge to bee none at all nor doe I vnderstand which is that beast of many heads whereof you make mention vnlesse perhaps you meane that threeheaded beast of which Iohn writeth many things in the Reuelation Hitherto Campian Of Manners you haue examined certaine opinions and positions of our men in all which you haue found as yet neuer a Paradoxe For either the things that you obiect are such as that nothing can be truer then they or else they are craftily and treacherously wrested by you into a peruerse meaning But now as if you were some new Censurer and Master of the auncient discipline and seuerity you make search into our manners not I thinke to make them better but to make them seeme much worse than they be Although he that reproueth the manners of other it were meet that he should bee without fault And is there so great a change made of Rome vpon the sodaine is their life now such are their manners begunne to bee so goodly that you being returned thēce a Frier dare striue with vs about vertue shamefastnes and hon●stie howsoeuer there be here many things done which ought not to be yet if you shall say that there is as great impunity and licenciousnes of sinnes in England as you your selfe haue seene at Rome the very towre of your religion and kingdome all men will iudge you to bee too too impudent Wherefore then doe you propose to vs those peeces of faults in Luther seeing among you not only some fragments of vices but huge bodies of the greatest crimes are plainely seene surely as long as those publike stewes and dens of whoores stand still in Rome you could scarce honestly make mention of manners But what are these peeces of faults in Luther Is it for that you reproue some crime in his life but that you neither can do nor go about to doe You obiect certaine sayings caught out of his bookes and as you are wont torne from the rest of the body of the sentence which seeme presently as soone as they bee propounded by you to make shew of

a witles kinde of reasoning is this first to recken vp the Saints in Heauen and say these are ours Then to number vp the damned Iewes Gentiles Turkes Heretikes and affirme those are the enemies of our Church To rehearse those Countries that haue been conuerted to the faith of Christ and conclude by and by these are of our Religion would you take this man to bee well in his wits compassing Heauen Earth and Hell so childishly a DVR Jf heere he any thing ridiculous then may you laugh at the Prophet vvho a● speedily runnes ouer the whole world And S. Paul tooke a testimony for a truth out of the beathen Poet Act. 17 2● WHIT. pag. 856. Who knoweth not that God may be knowne by his creatures religion illustrated by nature vncorrupt but what nature I pray you hath taught Camptā thus to iudge of the heauenly spirits and the damned soules and of the whole fr●me of things can he learne by nature that those who haue professed the Popish religion doe novv enioy heauenly happines and that they who dislike it are tormented in hell These weapons of Campian were those that impure Symmachus opposed Christian religion withall Ambros Epist 30. Prudent contra Symmachum ridiculouslie and impertinently taking vnto himselfe what he liketh and reiecting the rest A worthie cauil fit for none but Iesuites which when a man hath by one negatiue discharged can neuer be proued by their peruerse sect and whole societie These dreames of yours Campian are vnworthie any answere one word of denial confutes this whole Chapter I will not bestow much time in answering this Sophisme so vnhansomely framed and patched together it shall suffice lightly to passe and only touch euery thing in a word First therefore you alledge the prophecie of Esay of a straight way wherein the simple should not erre b DVR You shew your ignorance in the Prophet for he speaketh not of the way to the Church but of the Church it selfe vvhich is the high way to heauen WHIT. pag. 857. Howsoeuer you interpret the way it maketh neither much for me nor for you The question is who shall find out that way and walke in it for it is not discerned of all because it is a plaine way nor held of all because it is a right way but he that hath learned Christ is he that walketh in this way without any error though he be but sillie and vnskilfull DVR Jf this be so then can it not be the true Church which conteineth sinners and men polluted And the Fathers by this place exclude only those who are not clensed by Baptisme WHIT. pag. 858. The Prophet speaketh of the Church of the elect and Saints because he saith vers 8. The polluted shall not passe by it and vers 20. the redeemed only whose ioy shall be euerlasting but the visible Church conteineth those which are impure whom Christ hath not redeemed and whose ioy shall perish As for Baptisme it purgeth none but such as lay hold of the promise of free iustification by Christ as Tit. 3.5 Heere the Prophet describes the entrance into Christs Church viz. that it should be ready plaine and easie But this way brings vs not to your Church c for of this way the Prophet reports that no prophane man no Lion or cruell beast shall be found in it whereas all your waies are compassed with polluted men raging beasts Lions Beares Leopards Dragons Diuels and in conclusion they leade miserably bewitched men vnto wofull destruction As for vs we treade that way which Christ and his Apostles haue traced out before vs wee auoyde your erroneous and strange waies because it is the way of sinners that you s●●●d in which way whosoeuer tread● Psal 1.1 Rom. 3.17 the way of pe●ce they haue not knowne First vnderstand the path well your selues and then direct the way vnto vs. Let vs say you as●●●d into heauen I feare you Iesuites haue no place there Heauen is for Christians not Iesuites But suppose your selues for the time to be in heauen what followeth Let vs behold say you the Martyrs 33. Bishops of Rome slaine together the Vniuersall Pastors companies of the faithfull all holie Saints Well suruey Campian heauen it selfe and all the heauenly host looke well in all the parts and coasts of it whiles you list you shall not find there vpon my word one Iesuit not one Papist for none shall stand in Mount Zion with the Lamb Apoc. 14.1 that haue receiued the marke of the beast or belong vnto Antichrist But in heauen are 33. Bishops of Rome and many more I doubt not but of all these name me one if you can of your religion whom you may iustly claime as yours Those were holy and faithfull Bishops which shed their bloud for the name of Christ But your Popes for these many hundred yeares what else haue they done but persecuted Christ and murthered his true seruants If those 33. Bishops be in heauen as doubtlesse they are how many late Popes could I recken vp which possibly cannot be where they are in all things they are so vnlike them You pick out a few let vs see who these are Ignatius say you was ours why I pray you He thought no man equall to the Bishop in causes ecclesiasticall not the King himselfe and left in writing certaine Apostolike traditions neither say we that any man is to be compared with the Bishop in such things as belong to his office d DVR If these be so proper to Bishops that they cannot belong to Kings then you being iudge the Queene cannot be the head of the English Church WHIT. pag. 160. We acknowledge no other head of the Church saue Christ And Prince though they may not do any of th●se 〈◊〉 yet they rule ouerthem who doe and ought to command them diligently to execute their offices which if they neglect they ought to reproue compell and punish them as we reade the good Kings of the Church Iewish and Christian haue euer done and the reason hath no force Princes haue no authoritie to preach therefore they haue no authority to punish those who teach false doctrine to their people He only ought to ouersee holy things viz. instruction of the people administration of the Sacraments vse of the keyes of the kingdome of heauen These are matters of great weight and exceed the kingly authority yet are Kings aboue Bishops in wealth honor gouernment maiestie and they may lawfully both admonish them of their dutie and restraine them when they offend If Bishops herein would equall themselues with Kings it were too intolerable As for the Apostles traditions which Ignatius hath left in writing we receiue them so farre as they agree with the Apostolicall Scripture if they dissent from those we refuse them The Epistles of Ignatius were most of them counterfet as euery man may see heere you rehearse many and still the vndersong is these are ours Telesphorus say