The Quakers Rounds OR A faithful Account of a large Discourse between a Party of them called Quakers Viz. William Fisher and Edward Burroughs c. with Mr. Philip Taverner Mr. Richard Goodgroom and Mr. M. Hall Ministers of the Gospel at the Publick Meeting-Place of West-Drayton in the County of Middlesex at which time and place the Quakers maintained I. That the Scriptures were not the Word of God because the Devil spake something and Pharaoh spake something that is there written II. That no Man is Iustified further than he is Sanctified III. That evil Motions not consented to are not sin IV. That Perfection is Attainable in this Life V. That the Scriptures were given to the World not to the Saints Published by William Taverner Preacher of the Word LONDON Printed by G. Dawson for Lodowick Lloyd and are to be sold at his Shop at the Castle in Cornwel 1658. To the READER Friendly Reader THou hast here as orderly a Relation of a confused Discourse as the disorder in it would admit the multitude of words which this dayes work was filled up with I do not undertake to set down they were legions and far exceeding the largest memory but the sum and substance of what was spoken on both sides is truly related and here and there some few words inserted for a further proof and clearing of things spoken to The Controversie lay cheifly between Mr. Richard Goodgroom the Objector and Edward Burroughs the Defendant to whom William Fisher was an Assistant which two were the chief Speakers on that side The Particulars objected against E. B. which he had formerly delivered in a private Meeting were as followeth VIZ. I. That the Scriptures were not the Word of God because the Devil spake something and Pharaoh something which is there written II. That no Man is Justified further than he is Sanctified III. That evil motions not consented to are not sin IV. That Perfection is attainable in this Life V. That the Scriptures were given to the World not to the Saints These E. B. would not at first own to be his as coming from the mouth of the Objector and yet owned every of them in his Discourse unless the last which he endeavoured to skin over with that Text John 5.29 but to no purpose his own doubtless they were else why would he undertake to maintain them his Zeal in contending for them makes it evident beyond all Controversie that he is the true father of the child There were some things in the managing of this Dispute if it deserves such a name just matter of reproof 1. A disorderly and confused speaking of many at sometimes together both Parties must confess guilty in this thing 2. A great prejudice in each Party against other which appeared in this neither Party was willing to own what the other said though for substance they held the same thing so that what with passion and prejudice meeting together there seemed rather a contending for Victory than for Truth I fear there is neither Party can plead innocent in this matter But I will no longer detain the Reader in an Epistle onely he may please to take notice That E. B. and W. F. were the chief Speakers on that side called Quakers R. G. was the Man engaged in the Controversie who heard those things delivered in a private Meeting by the person formerly named P. T. and Mr. Hall came as Hearears not as Parties engaged further than other of the Company being free to own Truth wheresoever they found it and being present did sometimes speak when they found Truth engaging them thereto Now that God would heal the breaches of Sion and turn to his People a pure lip that they might all call upon the Name of the Lord to serve him with one shoulder Zeph. 3.9 is the hearty desire and prayer of him Who owns all Saints in the bond of Love under what distinction of Form soever PHIL. TAVERNER A true Relation of a giddy confused Discourse between a Party of them called QUAKERS and some others in the Publick Meeting-place at West-drayton in the County of Middlesex Ian. 18. 1657. THE first thing delivered by E. B. and objected against by R. G. Viz. I. That the Scriptures were not the Word of God because the Devil spake something and Pharaoh something which is there written A strange kind of Assertion as if nothing of the mind will and counsel of God were declared in the Scriptures because something which the Devil spake and something which Pharaoh and other wicked men spake is there related so much seems to be implyed in the reason as brought to prove the Assertion yet do I not beleeve that the person asserting this doth so think or judge of the Scriptures for his acknowledgements were more honest in many things granted by him if his heart and tongue were agreed in the things which in words he sometimes seemed to own but whitherto can be the tendency of such giddy Doctrins then to a weakening the authority of the Scriptures and begetting in their hearers slighting and undervaluing thoughts concerning the written Word if this were not the intention of the speaker it is well but that the thing spoken hath such a tendency in it who but may easily see Yea and it is much to be feared that such a rash and inconsiderate kind of speaking hath brought forth in many an effect of its own likenes viz. a sitting loose from lightly esteeming the holy Scriptures as a low weak and useless ministration To this first thing Edward Burroughs made reply after this manner E. B. You lay it not down in my words and also mistake my meaning R. G. Whatsoever was your meaning these were your words and I have not wronged you a tittle P. T. The question then is to which of you two most credit is to be given R. G. I have not added nor diminshed a tittle concerning his words and there are others who can beare witness that these were his words his very words E. B. I sayed then and so I say still that the Scripture is not the Word of God but a declaration of the Word the Scriptures testifie of Christ who is the Word but are not the Word themselves P. T. We destinguish between the Essential and Declarative word of God we own Christ the former and the Scriptures the latter E. B. I say the Scriptures are a Declaration of but are not the very Word of God P. T. You do deny them to be the Declarative word of truth an answer may be easily given yea or nay which we wait to hear E. B. I pray all take notice I say the Scriptures are a Declaration but not the Word of God and they are a Declaration of Truth and falsehood there is that which is false Declared in them as well as truth and therefore cannot be the Word of God For there is something Declared in them which the Devill spake and something which Pharaoh and other
wicked men spake P. T. The Scripture consists of two parts An Historical and a Doctrinall part The former is a true record of severall things spoken and done by severall persons and upon severall occasions and here we grant that there are some things recorded which are in themselves false The Pharisees spake concerning Christ say we not well thou art a Samaritan and hast a Devil the thing as spoken by the Pharisees was false blasphemy against the Son of God and we also meet with many things left upon record in the Scriptures which the Devill and wicked men spake falsely but then we must distinguish between the thing related and the relation of it the relation is true though the thing as spoken by the Devill and wicked men is false the Scripture doth truly relate some things which were falsely seoken And concerning the Doctrinall part of the Scripture It is a true record of divine Truth concerning things to be beleeved and done having its rise from the pure Fountain the Spirit of truth E. B. We say and grant the same P. T. Where then lyes the difference Will. Fisher He was one of them called Quakers we all hear themselves acknowledge the Scriptures a declaration of falsehood as well as of truth and how then can this be the word of God P. T. Friend do not mistake nor goe about to pervert my words I distinguished the Scriptures into an Historical and doctrinal part And concerning the former I doe not say it is a false Declaration although some things declared therein are false The Scripture is a true Declaration of whatsoever it Declares and nothing of falsehood can be charged upon it it truly Declares those false things which some wicked ones spake the falsehood is theirs who spake it not the Scripture that relates it some of the Devils words which he upon severall accasions spake are there related but no where through the whole Scriptures are any of the Devils Doctrins taught but every where declared against and farther those falsehoods and blasphemies which the Devill and many wicked men spake which are there recorded are not the greatest part of what is written but that which is upon accasion here and there mentioned and the mentioning of these things is for our benefit and advantage that knowing what a one the Devill is we might more carefully watch against his wiles and take heed of associating our selves with such who are Children like this their Father least they prove a snare to us And concerning the Doctrinall part of Scripture you heard me call it a true record of divine Truth it is truth both in the declaration and in the thing declared and here I shall adde farther First That these Scriptures are no other then the language of the Spirit of truth which spake in those holy men of God who were the Pen-men thereof Secondly It is the same Spirit which dwels and speaks in the Saints now with that which dwelt and spake in the Saints in former dayes Thirdly The Spirit is so one and ever the same with it self that it never contradicts or speaks things contrary to it self E. B. we grant all this and say the same P. T. Then so farre we are one And from this grant we may adde though it was not then hinted that what soever Spirit brings any other or teaches contrary Doctrin to what was preached by Christ the Prophets and Apostles and left upon record in the holy Scriptures for our learning is not of God but of the Devil not the Spirit of Christ but of delusion in what garbe soever it comes E. B. I say no more then what the Scripture it self sayes viz. it is a Diclaration of things that were beleeved Luke 1.1 For as much as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a Declaration of those things which are most surely beleeved among as ye see here it is called a Declaration of things that were beleeved this is Scripture language a Declaration of things which were beleeved P. T. You own it a Declaration of things that were beleeved in former dayes but do you own it a Declaration of things that are to be beleeved by us in this our day things that we are to beleeve E. B. Yea which we are to beleeve but still I say and I pray all take notice I say the Scripture is not the Word of God but a Declaration the Scripture is but writing and it is not the writing which is ihe Word but the thing written of P. T. Since ye are so shy of calling the Scriptures the word of God will ye own them the words of God the words of the Spirit of truth which spake in those servants of God who were the Pen-men thereof nothing was answered directly to this but a multitude of words heaped up together about a Diclaration of and the thing written of of many words but little matter why they should be so shy of calling them at least the words of God I cannot say unless they were afraid least such a grant should have made us too neare together For Christ useth both expressions John 5.24 Verely verely I say unto you he that heareth my word c. Chap. 8.31 If ye continue in my Word c. And in Mark 8.38 whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my word before this adulterous and sinfull generation c. John 8.47 He that is of God heareth Gods words John 15.7 If ye abide in me and my words abide in you c. and Iohn 14.23 where by word and words is meant one and the same thing viz. That Doctrine of divine and heavenly truth which was preached by Christ and afterwards by his Apostles the Spirit teaching them all things and bringing all things to their rememberance whatsoever Christ had said unto them John 14.26 this divine and heavenly Doctrin which was preached by Christ and his Apostles and afterwards delivered in writing and left upon record to this day in the Scriptures we call the Word or Words of God E. B. The thing written of I call the Word of God but not the Scripture which is no other then meer writing P. T. We distinguish betweene the writing and the thing written it is not the writing as it is meer inke and paper but the thing written which we own the Word of God W. F. Let us then at last se wherein we agree and wherein we differ we say Christ is the Word of God so say they we say the Scriptures are they which testifie of Christ so say they we say the Scripture is a Declaration of things to be beleeved so say they we say the writing is not the word of God so say they P. T. We say that Christ is the essential word and the Scriptures the Declarative Word of God not the meer writing but the thing written that divine and heavenly Doctrin which is contained in these writings is the pure word of truth given in by
the Spirit unto those who were the Penmen of the Scriptures and remaines unto us unto this day a rule in the letter concerning things to be beleeved and practiced by us E. B. I say the Scriptures Declare the Word of God and therefore are not the Word for that which declares and that which is Declared are not one and the same thing but two P. T. You have heard the distinction which is a full answer to this but do you not grant that that heavenly Doctrin which is there Declared is truth E. B. Yea I grant it P. T. And that those holy men of God who writ the Scriptures did both speak and write as they were moved by the holy Spirit E. B. Yea I say so also P. T. And that those things there declared and given forth in writing are things to be beleeved and practiced by us in these our dayes as well as by those in whose generation they were written E. B. I grant all this P. T. Then you say in effect the same and no other then what we do viz. that the Scriptures are the Declarative Word of God and consequently the wide difference as it seems betweene us concerning the Scriptures being the Word of God is rather in words and expressions then in matter and substance R. G. What they grant doth not yet satisfie us for they acknowledge the Scriptures onely a Declaration and deny it to be the Word but I say further and will prove it that the Scriptures are the Word of God W. F. The letter of the Scriptures R. G. Yea the Letter W. F. Mark that Collonel speaking to Collonel Bisco who was there present he sayes he will prove the letter to be the Word R. G. I say the Letter by a Figure Before the argument was laid down one of them called Quakers whose name I know not produced that text of the Apostle 2 Cor. 3.6 calling out to the People to hearken to the form of wholesome words who also hath made us able Ministers of the new Testament not of the Letter but of the Spirit for the Letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life W. F. The Apostle was a Minister of the word and Gospel of Christ and he sayes not of the Letter but of the Spirit but thou sayest the Letter is the Word of God and wilt undertake to prove it wilt thou then contradict the Apostle and prove him a Minister of the Letter when himself sayes not of the Letter but of the Spirit R. G. You wrest the Apostles words who doth not there speak of or meane the Letter of the Scriptures but the difference between the legall and Gospel Ministration W. F. But thou saidst that thou wouldest prove the Letter of the Scriptures to be the Word of God R. G. I said I would prove the Scriptures to be the Word of God which I am ready to do but ye are so full of words that ye will hear none but your selves nor give me leave to speak W. F. Well we will hear thee R. G. I lay it down in this argument That which Christ and his Apostles owned to be the word of God is indeed and in-truth the Word of God and ought to be so owned by us But Christ and his Apostles owned the Scriptures to be the Word of God Ergo The assumption or minor Proposition R. G. proved by two texts of Scripture the first concerning Christs owning the Scriptures to be the Word of God I doe not well remember but in stead of that take another Mark 7.13 Making the word of God of none authority by your tradition which ye have ordained c. The Lord Christ in the former part of the Chap reproves the hypocrisie of the Pharisees and tels them vers 8. For ye lay aside the Commands of God and observe the traditions of men The 10th verse makes it evident that by the Commands of God which they rejected Christ means the law given from God to the people of Israel by the hand of Moses which was a written Law and the same which he calls the Commands of God ver 8 9. he calls the word of God vers 13. making the word of God of none effect or of none authority by your traditions c. it relates to the Law given by Moses and more particularly to the fifth Commandement Honour thy Father and thy Mother c. which was one of the ten and written by the same hand as the rest were whence clearly appears that Christ owned and called the written Law the Word of God R. G. And that the Apostles owned the Scriptures to be the Word of God will appear by comparing that text 1 Thess 2.13 with some others For this cause also we thank God without ceasing that when ye received the Word of God which ye heard of us ye received it not as the Word of man but as it is indeed the Word of God You see in this text that what the Apostle preached and these Thessalonians received was indeed the word of God Now that which the Apostle preached was no other than what had been long before spoken and written by Moses and the Prophets For proof of this ye may consult Act. 26.22 and 28.23 whence appears that what was written by Moses and the Prophets was owned by the Apostle as the Word of God W. F. Thou speakest now of that which is written but didst undertake and saidst thou wouldest prove the Letter of the Scriptures to be the Word of God P. T. He said by a Figure W. F. Thou saidst the Letter R. G. You cannot conceive since I speak of a Figure that my meaning was the meer writing but by Letter and Scripture I meant the thing conteining for the thing conteined the writing for the thing written E. B. Well I will answer thee The Apostle preached the Gospell and this we grant is the word and power of God to salvation unto every one that beleeveth the Gospell is the word and power of God but not the Scriptures and it is the Gospel which the Apostle preached and which the Thessalonians received not as the word of man but as it was indeed the word of God the Gospel is the Word of God the Scriptures are not P. T. There is a twofold coming of the Gospel viz. in word and secondly in power 1 Thes 1.5 and it is the same the very same Gospel of Christ in the hand of both Ministrations the same Gospel of Christ when it comes in word and Letter as when it comes in Spirit and Power Again the Apostle writ the same which he preached he did not preach one thing and write another but the same Gospel and word of truth which he preached the same he writ if that therefore which he preached was not the word of man but indeed the word of God then that which he writ was also not the word of man but truly indeed the word of God Let us here ad another text though not then
mentioned 2 Pet. 1.19 We have also a more sure word of the Prophets c. The Apostle Peter cals that which the Prophets spake and writ the Word ye will not I hope say the word of man but the word of God in the mouth and writings of the Prophets E. B. The Scripture is that a man may carry up and down with him in his hand or pocket but so he cannot the word yea if the Scripture be the word then I may say I have the word of God in my hand lifting up his Book to the people that all might see it then I may say I have Christ in my hand and I have the Spirit in my hand I have Life and Death Heaven and Hell in my hand c. R. G. You have that in your hand which declares all these these were R. G. words not as some have said you have the thing signified but you have that which Declares all these E. B. So I say this Scripture Declares those things it is a Declaration of the Word but is not it self the Word P. T. It is not the Essentiall word but the Declarative word of God wherein the mind will and counsell of God concerning us is made known E. B. The Word was before any Scripture was given for they were given many years after the creation of the world and some of them at one time some at another but the word was from eternity P. T. Those Doctrins of divine and heavenly truth recorded and delivered to us in the Scriptures were the things of the Spirit of God before committed to writing and remaine the same in this day of the Scriptures and shall be the same when the Scripture viz. the writing shall be no more but this doth not at all contradict what hath been asserted viz. that the thing written is this word of God the mind will and counsell of God given forth to us in writing which we are to own and follow as a Rule to us in all our wayes E. B. I pray all take notice what I say The Scriptures are but writing and therefore cannot be the Word of God the writing is not the Word but the thing written of P. T. You have been sufficiently answered already but you will receive none onely go your Round in a circle We do not affirm that the ABC c. or that words of the Scripture as they consist and are made up of Letters and syllables are the Word of God but that which is exprest by these The Spirit makes use of these words consisting of letters and syllables to speak to us as we are able to bear and to understand and that which is here written viz the mind and meaning of the Spirit exprest in these words in this writing or Scripture is that we call and own the word of God or the things of the Spirit of God Declared and given forth to us in writing The second thing debated was concering Justification which took up neare two hours time wherein I spake little by reason I could fully close with neither party In which discourse words were multiplyed and especially by them called Quakers who would oft-times speak two or three successively giving way to none other I thing I may truely say that I never spent so long time in hearing spirituall things spoken to with lesse profit whatsoever it was to others it was to me a most wearisome and unprofitable Discourse which I shall leave till the last and then give a breife hint of it The third thing laid down formerly by E. B. for Doctrine and now objected against by R. G. was III. That evill motions not consented to were not sin And what plain contradiction is here to own them evill and yet not sin unlesse consented to If evill motions then are they a deviation from the holy righteous and good law of God and consequently unrighteousness and the Apostle tells us All unrighteousness is sin 1 Iohn 5.17 Bellarmine layes it down more subtilly for it is one of his Doctrines when he sayes concupiscence is not sin unless consented to but to grant them evill motions and yet deny them to be sin till consent be given who can be so dull sighted as not to see a plain contradiction in such a position if evil in their own nature how can they be called otherwise then sin even before consented to if neither evil nor sin how can consent make them sin E. B. Thou hast not laid down my words right according to my meaning R. G. They are the very same words I heard you deliver without any alteration W. F. We say that temptations are not sin or transgressions unless consented to Mr. Hall of Colbrook in Middlesex do you speak of temptations from without or such which have their rise from within and out of a mans own heart E. B. I said then and say the same now that temptations unto sin are not sin without consent For the Devill tempted Christ who yet did no sin because he consented not to the temptation R. G. You now speak of temptations which are from without and from the Devil which we grant are not our sin unless consented to but our question is according to what you seemed to own in your discourse whether evil thoughts and motions which are from within and rise out of the heart are not sin unless consented to W. F. Dost thou grant no difference between thoughts and motions R. G. Those motions to sin which arise out of a mans own heart have ever the thoughts going along with them and whether consented to or no Salomon tells us the thought of folly is sin E. B. I say motions to sin are not sin without consent R. G. Such motions which arise out of a mans own heart E. B. Yea Such motions R. G. And take along with you all your own words viz. Evill motions arising out of a mans own heart are not sin unless consented to And what is a contradiction if this be not evil motions and yet not sin our consent makes them more sinful but cannot make them to be sin if they were not such before E. B. They are not my sin although evill in themselves unless I consent R. G. whose sin are they then W. F. They are not his sin unless he consents Ye know the Apostles words It is no more I that do it but sin that dwells in me Rom. 7.20 Mr. Hall Who is that Me in whom sin is found was it not Paul and who is that Him in whom sin dwells is it not Edward Burroughs W. F. Ye see according to the Apostle it is not he that doth it but sin that dwelleth in him Mr. Hall In the Apostle was flesh found as well as spirit and these two were contrary maintaining war one against another the Apostle being the person or subject in whom were both found And while E. B. sayes it is not I but sin that dwels in me Who is the Me in whom
For 1. He is God over all blessed for ever so are not we 2. He Christ Jesus hath performed the office of a Mediator between God and Man For there is one God and one Mediator between God and Man the Man Christ Iesus 1 Tim. 2.5 He is the Mediator so are not we ye will not grant every man his own Mediator and consequently so many persons reconciled to God so many Mediators when the Apostle saies there is one God and one Mediator yet but one 3. He is risen from the dead ascended into heaven and sate down at the right hand of the Father in glory so are not we Yet in some other respects as he is so are we but then we must distinguish between the truth of the thing and its manner for things that are like are not like altogether and in all respects for instance 1. He is the Son of God so are we true in respect of the thing but not in respect of the manner Christ the Son of God by nature and eternal generation we the Sons and Daughters of God by the grace of Adoption 2. In respect of holiness and Sanctification as he is so are we true in respect of the thing but not in respect of the manner Christ was holy from his conception and originally but so are not we we are sanctified in time he was perfectly just and holy without any blemish of sin so are not we for there still remains some indwellings of sin in us 3. In respect of those spiritual and heavenly vertues which shined forth in him being meek and lowly humble and self-denying patient towards all and overcoming evil with good c. as he is so are we true in respect of the things themselves but not in respect of the manner or measure Every true Member of Christ doth bear the image and likeness of Christ their Head the same spiritual vertues and true excellencies shine forth both in the Head and Members but with this difference 1. What was and is in the Head originally is found in the Members only as dependants upon Christ their Head 2. What was in the Head to the height of perfection is found in the Members but to some degree 3. What was in the Head without any contrary thereto is found in the Members but with some contrary to it in the same subject they are not perfectly light there is darkness as well as light flesh as well as spirit in the Saints Rom. 7.25 So then with my mind I my self serve the Law of God but with the flesh the Law of Sin The last thing asserted by E. B. and objected against by R. G. was That the Scriptures were given to the World not to the Saints E. B. I do not remember that I spake it in these words R. G. I well remember your words and have neither added nor deminished a tittle E. B. I was speaking to those words Search the Scriptures c. John 5.39 and said that this Scripture was not given to the Saints but to the World at least to the unbeleeving Iews P. T. If this Scripture was given as you say to the World and Unbeleevers only then consequently all other Scriptures were given to the World and not to the Saints for this Search the Scriptures c. relates to and implies in it all other Scriptures E. B. All the Scriptures were not then written P. T. I mean it of such Scriptures as were then extant for this Text cannot be conceived as speaking of that which yet was not those Scriptures which were written after but all Scriptures written aforetime viz. the Law of Moses the Psalmes and the Prophets c. are implied in this and if this were given as you say to the Unbeleeving World and not to the Saints then consequently none of those Scriptures which this relates to were given to the Saints but to the World which I think you will be hardly able to make good W. F. Thou speakest more unreasonably in this than thou hast all the day before P. T. I speak directly to your Friends words who expresses himself Search ye the Scriptures which if it be a Command and this Command reaches no further than to the Unbeleeving World to whom shall we conceive these Scriptures in the judgement of your Friend to be given which this Text relates to It is indeed clear that these words were spoken directly to the Unbeleeving Jews and are rather to be read ye do search the Scriptures for in them ye think to have eternal life and these are they which testifie of me which words are rather a reprehension and reproof to the Jews to whom they are spoke I say a reproof not that they did search the Scriptures for this is a commendable practice and every Christian mans duty Acts 17.11 but that while they searched the Scriptures they still neglected him of whom the Scripture spake they searched the Scriptures but did not beleeve in him Christ Jesus the Messiah promised of whom Moses and the Prophets had written and whom the Scriptures did testifie of For they testifie of me and ye will not come to me vers 40. But now if you will have this a Command and affirm that this Scripture was given to the Unbeleeving World what follows but to those that are commanded and whose duty it is to search into the Scriptures are they given yea to these onely are they given therefore if the Unbeleeving World are onely commanded to search the Scriptures can they be conceived to be given to any other and thus he plainly owns though he would seem to deny it that the Scriptures were given to the World not to the Saints I am of an easie belief that E. B. when he mentioned that text of Iohn 5.29 Search ye the Scriptures or ye do search the Scriptures which may be read either way meant no other but these words when spoken by Christ were spoken to the unbeleeving Jews which is true but then it will not follow that these words which were at first spoken to Unbeleevers were written afterwards the holy Spirit moving holy men of God to this work for their sakes onely to whom they were spoken and consequently that this Scripture was given onely to Unbeleevers viz. the Unbeleeving Jews which were his very words if he hath not forgotten himself For first what are recorded in Scripture as things directed to some particular persons when spoken were not written onely for their sakes to whom spoken but according to that Psal 102.17 These things shall be written for generations to come c. 2. What was formerly spoken of or spoken to Unbeleevers particularly and afterwards committed to writing the holy Spirit moving hereunto was not written meerly for such in future generations to whom they were at first spoken viz. Unbeleevers but for all sorts of persons to whom this Scripture should come 1 Cor. 10.11 Yet thirdly whatsoever was written by those servants of God who were the Pen-men of the
those who receive and beleeve in him whereby they stand faultless and without spot before God R. G. Now you clearly own Justification by inherent righteousness and agree fully with your lelf in your former assertion that no man is justified farther then sanctified E. B. Inherent righteousness is no Scripture terme and we desire ye would keep to the form of wholesome words R. G. It is clearly implyed if not expressed in the Scriptures and is not a term of any difficult understanding E. B. Ye are Schollars and reade bookes we are men brought up at the Plow-tayle and understand not scholarly terms P. T. My Friend this was a digression and the whole was little other There are three books which I read in cheif and I think I may speake the same for others The booke of the Scriptures The booke of my own heart and experience thridly The book of Christian observation And I have observed this day on both sides much of selfishness and this mixt with some degree of passion there are few if any can say I am free some discovering it in words others in carriages E. B. Did after this multiply many words concerning our own works being weake and imperfect but the work of Christ perfect and glorious and that we are not Justified by our own works of righteousness but by the work of righteousness which Christ works for us R. G. You hold Justification to be by those workes of rigteousness which Christ works in us directly contrary to what the Apostle affirmes viz. That we are justified by faith not by works E. B. I utterly deny all our own works and righteousness in the matter of Justification R. G. The Apostle denies al works according to the Law whatsoever Rom. 3.28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by Faith without the Works of the Law W. F. Dost thou deny all Works in point of Justification R. G. We are Justified by Faith without the Works of the Law W. F. Thou sayest we are justified by Faith and yet deniest all Works in the matter of Justification is not Faith a Work R. G. Faith Justifies only instrumentally it is not the meritorious but the instrumental cause of our Justification neither doth it Justifie instrumentally as our work or a work wrought in us by the Spirit but with respect to its object Christ And let me here add a word or two not then spoken 1. Justification by Grace by Christ by Faith is all one and the same Justification unto which all these concur as several causes respectively 2. We must distinguish between the merit or proper debt of Works and the bare performance of something called in the Scripture by the name of a work The former the Scripture every where denies in the point of Justification but concerning the latter the performance of something called and owned in the Scripture under the name of a work it doth not deny yea it expresly cals Faith a work John 6.29 and this is required unto Justification 3. Faith hath a hand in this business of Justification no otherwise than instrumentally 4. Faith doth not Justifie instrumentally by vertue of any inherent worth or excellency in it self more than in Love or any other fruit of the Spirit but by vertue of divine Institution as God hath appointed it to serve for this end John 6.40 W. F. I shall prove and according to Scripture that we are justified not by Faith onely but by Works also And it may be if I read the words out of the Scripture ye will have the more patience to hear me And reading certain verses in the latter part of the second Chapter of James he with much carefulness notes that in vers 24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by Faith onely having read to the end he then carries on his Discourse Ye see they are the very words of the Apostle and I hope ye will not deny them we speak no other than according to the form of wholesome words that by works a man is justified and not by faith only but thou sayest by faith onely and to prove this truth the Apostle ye all see brings two eminent examples the one of Abraham the other of Rahab what can be spoken more plainly and proved more strongly that by works a man is justified and not by faith only so was Abraham so was Rahab justified and so are we justified at this day by works and not by faith onely By works not our own works according to the Law but the work of God in us our own works which we our selves have wrought or do work are weak and imperfect but the works of God in us are all perfect and glorious yea meritorious we are not justified by ought our selves have done or can do all our own work of righteousness is worthless and imperfect but the works of God in us are of infinite vertue and worth Mr. Hall Will you own that the works of righteousness which are wrought in us by the Spirit are meritorous W. F. I say it is a perfect and a glorious work which God works in us P. T. And you said meritorious no farther reply was made to this it was it may be no more then a slip of the tongue I judge it no worse R. G. The Apostle in this latter part of the Chap. dealing with some who turned grace into wantonness and boasted of their faith without works endeavours to convince such of their great mistake and proves that true faith is never separated from works of righteousness For though faith alone justifies yet that faith which is alone doth not justifie true faith being ever fruitfull and working by love W. F. The Apostle speaks plain Was not Abraham our father justified by works ver 21. likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works ver 25. P. T. The Apostle speaks of the Justification of our faith before men not the Justification of our persons before God fruitfulness in works of righteousness is a proof of a true faith the Apostles design in this latter part of the Chap. is to shew the difference between a true and a counterfeit a dead a living faith W. F. The Apostle affirms that both Abraham and Rahab the harlot were justified through works R. G. I shall make it appear from Scripture that Ahraham was justified by faith before his going about to offer up his son Isaac which is that eniment work the Apostle here makes mention of W. F. And was Rahab the harlot Justified before her righteous work of receiving the messengers and sending them out another way R. G. I speak of Abraham and in the same way that Abraham was justified was Rahab justified also viz. by faith which was declared by works And concerning Abraham it is said Gen. 15.6 He beleeved in the Lord and it was counted to him for righteousness Here is Abrahams Justification by faith clearely asserted and owned by the Apostle
in opposion to Justification by works according to the law Rom. 4.2.3 And this was before Abraham had ever a Child which will clearely appear if you consult the Scriptures So that Abraham was justified by faith before he went to offer up his son Isaac he was before that act of obedience a justified person therefore not justified hereby but onely declared to be a true beleever his faith was hereby clearely manifest and no more can be drawn from this of the Apostle James if we do seriously weigh ver 18 19 20. and compare what followes with these going before And here ended this confused dispute about Justification in which point it is feared by some that those called Quakers if all of the same mind with E. B. and. W. F. have a Pope in their belly if so I heartily wish the Lord would shew them their errour recover their feet out of the snare and deliver them from the delusion I have since this Dispute met with a Book called A Standard lift up for all People The Author this E. B. there are three passages which I took notice of in it relating to JUSTIFICATION I. PAge 3. Chap. 1. towards the end of the Chapter it is said God Justifieth the Righteous and condemneth the Wicked If by justifying be meant Gods owning approving and accepting the Righteous and that the same God doth not accept but disown the Wicked in their wickedness then is it a Truth of the same stamp with that Psal 5.4 5. But if by justifying be meant that of absolving and acquiting from guilt and condemnation which is that the Apostle so often cals Justification how will it agree with that in Rom. 4.5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly c. II. Page 11. Chap. 8. It is the new man that is justified not the old If by justifying be meant as before Gods owning and accepting with delight so it is true God accepts owns and delights in nothing but the new Creature in us for what is after the will of the flesh or the old man in us is the object of his loathing and shall be destroyed But if by justifying be meant in the second sence an acquitting and absolving the sinner from guilt and condemnation then how can the new man which never sinned be said to be justified vix from sin or to be acquitted from guilt and condemnation which it was never under III. Page 11. Chap. 8. lin 3. And such as are taught by Christ and guided by him in all the wayes of Truth and Righteousness are justified by him and none else not in any word or work whatsoever but in what they are led to fulfil by him What strange contradiction in the two last clauses as if what they are led to fulfil by him were not a work And here again If by being justified in what they are led to fulfil by Christ be only meant a being accepted and owned of God in the thing done It is granted that God accepts of nothing from us but what is the work of his own Spirit and Grace in us but if by being justified in what they are led to fulfil by him be meant that Justification which himself cals lin 11. of this Chapter A being cleared from condemnation in the sight of God What could the Pope himself have spoken more plain for effecting Justification by inherent Righteousness or the work of the Law wrought in us For what can that clause in what they are led to fulfil by him relate to but a conformity to the righteous holy and good Law of God And if this be our Justification to what purpose was the death of Christ For a perfect conformity to the Law of God in our own persons though not wrought in our own strength but in the strength and power of Grace the Spirit working all in us and for us is no other than the Righteousness of the Law And as to this Point ye cannot be ignorant of what the Apostle saith If Righteousness be by the Law then Christ dyed in vain Gal. 2.21 Several other Passages I have taken notice of in in this Book some contradictory others dark and doubtful as to what is the Authors aim in them PAge 4. Chap. 2. And this Christ Jesus the Son of God is the light and life of the World and hath enlightned all mankind every one that cometh into the world is lighted by him with the true light of life or condemnation And page 22. Christ Jesus the second Adam lighteth every man and all mankind that cometh into the World with the true light How do these agree with that Page 25. Chap. 19. Mans state in the first Adam in transgression is a state of perfect enmity against God and Death reigns in every man and he is possessed with blindness ignorance and unbelief c I say how do these agree unless there be granted a general restauration of all men which yet you seem to deny in Page 10. Chap. 6. where you acknowledge some to be in a state unreconciled to God and having no part nor portion in these things which belong to their peace Page 10. lin 1. Many profess them in words what others enjoy of these things but have not felt in themselves the working of the eternal Spirit neither have the witness in themselves of being restored again From this latter clause a twofold question ariseth for your words speak not forth your meaning clearly 1. Whether none are restored again but those that have the witness in themselves Or secondly Whether all are restored but some want the witness of this in themselves which you mean is doubtful Page 10. Chap. 7. in the three last lines This Religion and Worship stands in Christ Jesus the second Adam who hath lighted every man that comes into the World that all men through him might believe c. Hence this question ariseth Whether that light which is in all and every particular man is sufficient without any thing farther of speciall grace superadded to bring up every man to beleeve in Christ unto salvation or to beleeve in God by meanes of Christ 1 Pet. 1.20 Pag. 5. Chap. 3. This is the testimony of the Spirit of God and it leadeth into all truth and out of all evill all that are guided by it and it is given to be the guide and rule of life to the Children of God Whence this question for in these things he speakes darkely and doubtfully Whether the Spirit is so given to be the guide and rule of life to the Saints that they have no more need to attend upon the Scriptures Chap. 19. After many other things it follows pag. 28. towards the end And the light of Christ in every one shall give testimony to it unto which I do onely commend my self and these truths to be witnessed Can these be wittnesses to you and of the truth in you who are as you say Pag. 6. Chap. 4. ignorant of the life power and wisedome of the Creatour to leade guide and preserve them following the counsell of their own heart which is evill altogether c. or can such judge between light and darkness between truth and falsehood who are possessed with blindness igorance and unbeleife and wholly imperfect to receive the things of Gods kingdom or to act any thing for God acceptable to him pag. 25. Chap. 19. Pag. 17. Chap. 13. It is truely said That the word of God was in the heart and mouth of the servant of God and that from it they spake forth the Scriptures and then followes As they were moved by the holy ghost through the eternal Spirit Do you make the Holy Ghost and eternall Spirit two or what do you mean by Holy Ghost it is indeed a usuall word among us though there be little to bear up the use of it more then long custome but by Holy Ghost we mean the holy and eternall Spirit what you mean wants an interpreter to find out and make known who seeme to make them two because you say by the holy Ghost through the eternall Spirit Pag. 10. Chap. 7. This is true religion c. where is given forth the same description of true Religion for substance with that of the Apostle James 1.26.27 and towards the end of the page it is said This is acceptable and well pleasing to God above all words and outward conformity and set times and dayes and observances c. This is subscribed to as honest and true and yet may a snake lie in this grasse The question therefore offers it self viz. Whether a doing the greater things of the law is acceptable where the lesse are neglected when it is said I will have mery not sacrifice or mercy rather then sacrifice which is the meaning God did not so require mercy as wholly to take off from Sacrifice onely hereby is declared that God prefers that before this which is true unto this day God requires to speake the truth and do the truth in all things to do unto all men as a man would be done unto to love God with all our heart and our neghbour as our selves c. But hence will not follow an abolition of all institute Worship consisting in the use of such Ordinances which Christ hath appointed and which were in use among the Saints in the primitive times God indeed prefers the former before this but stil requires us to mind according to that of Christ These things ye ought to have done and not to leave the other undone FINIS