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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A95895 The picture of independency lively (yet lovingly) delineated Vicars, John, 1579 or 80-1652. 1645 (1645) Wing V322A; ESTC R232195 12,169 19

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conscience vehemently urging that the Civill-magistrate hath no power to rule over any Christians conscience which though we easily grant in point of private believing yet we say and will justifie he has power to regulate Christians consciences in point of publick pious and peaceable practicall-cariage both in life and doctrine as is most clear from that pregnant impregnable Scripture 1 Tim. 2. 1 2 3. Where the Civill-magistrate is acknowledged by the Apostle Paul himself to be the principall instrument of God to regulate mens outward consciences as I may call them as well in all godlinesse as honesty for the preservation of publick peace unity and community one with another Unlesse ye dare avouch that Christ did purchase a liberty of conscience for men to sinne in any sort which were most blasphemous so to say or think How dare ye then I say if ye will shew your selves the Sons and Daughters of Christian love peace and humility do these things even thus separate your selves from holy communion with us and thus censoriously judge and think of us who do seven at this time enjoy ever blessed be the Lords free mercy for it and the Lord grant that this unholy-ingratitude and wanton-contention of yours cut us not short of the farther and freer enjoyment of the Word most orthodoxly plentifully and profoundly preached the Sacraments in sweet measure for the time purely administred and both Sacraments and Church-discipline in a most hopefull way had we but thankfull hearts godly wisdome and pious patience to wait the Lords leasure as it is our Christian duty for the perfecting cōpleting thereof and not being poor-beggars to be our own proud-carvers even ever since we most happily shook off the Antichristian yoke of our tyrannicall Prelates to be blessedly reduced and setled in a holy and unblended way free from beggarly-ceremonies and humane inventions as much as by Christian prudence and piety backed and strengthned by Gods rightest-rule the Scriptures is possible to be attain'd unto both for the present and future too But Object probably it will be here objected But Sir would you have us to submit to such a Church-government or Discipline as we fear are informed by our learned pious Pastors is as Antitichristian as tyrannicall if not more than the Prelaticall was and which Mr. John Goodwin saies in his Theomachia is a bloody unpeaceable persecuting way a way much damping and deading the flourishing improvements of the gifts and graces of the Saints Whereunto I answer Answ First that this is a most unjust injurious slander maliciously cast upon the Presbyterian-way witnesse as I said before the many thousands of most eminent Saints and rare Christians famous in their severall generations in Geneva Germany Sweden Hungary Bohemia Holland France Scotland and now in England both for most excellent and enlarged parts of learning and piety Secondly witnesse the most transcendent testimony of one of your own now prime Independent Brethren Mr. Lockyer by name who being at my house upon just occasion thereunto afforded him by my selfe professed most seriously unto me that he having been in Scotland and seen with his eyes and taken speciall notice of the most exact practicall managing of their Church-government and we all know that one eye-witnesse is better then ten eare-witnesses or then a hundred speculative-conceits or imaginary New-lights in all the particulars thereof he I say professed most seriously unto me that he was in conscience convinced and clearly perswaded that their Presbyterian-way was most Apostolicall and Evangelicall even in these very tearms and what higher Encomium could he possibly have given in this behalf Thirdly and lastly in further answer hereunto I desire to ask any ingenuous Dissenting Brother or Sister and if their conscience will but speak-out the plain truth herein let them freely say O what would they and I have given or done lesse then ten years agoe and so upward to have had the Presbyterian Government as it then was and now is in Scotland to have been established and set up among us which now like fools and most ungratefull wantons ye so contemne condemne and vilifie to your great shame be it spoken Again Object 3. it may peradventure be here objected But are not the Ministers and many others of the Independent-way very eminent Saints and Christians both for their learning and most holy lives and unspotted conversation and therefore to be as justly eredited and believed in what they have delivered to us by word or writing as any of yours to the contrary I answer Answ 2. neither the parts nor piety of men though ever so outwardly pure and holy are a right rule for truly wise Christians to walk by but contrary wise very dangerous and deceivable For though from my heart I here professe as in the presence of God the Searcher of all hearts that I love and honour very many of the Independent or Dissenting Brethren both for their learning and holy lives yet give me leave as ingenuously to confesse with all that I much fear them for their judgement and opinions sake which I hold dangerous and destructive For I say as the Apostle Paul sayes Gal. 1. 8. Though any of you yea or an Angell from Heaven preach any other Gospel or Word then that which Christ and his Apostles in the written Word hath delivered to us let him be accursed And my Brethren 't is not an unknown thing to Scholars and any others verst in Ecclesiasticall histories that the most dangerous Hereticks and first broachers of Hereticall and Schismaticall errours and opinions as Pelagius Arminius c. Were men of marvelous strict life and outward holinesse This rule therefore I say is no solid safe or right rule for pious and prudent Christians to walk by but the written Word of God only and clear and demonstrative deductions and necessary consequences drawne thence by comparing Scripture with Scripture and thus trying the spirits whether they are of God or not 1 John 4. 1. As the noble Bereans did Now all these premises seriously considered wherein remains I pray the mighty distance and difference between our most unkinde Dissenting Brethren and us if not in the Self-flation of their spirits and in their Self-seeking and private ingagements as hence we have great cause more then to fear For they say they desire but what we desire in the main viz. Pure Ordinances Holy Assemblies and Christ upon his Throne only they dissent and differ from us in some poor punctilios some meer surmises bare pretence of what is not or not yet proved to us from Gods Word without which they must pardon us if we cannot believe them or be led by them and herein indeed I confesse they out-run us and run before us yea and I fear and believe too before God calls them What then means this Daggers-drawing at one another for poor circumstantials things not absolutely necessary to salvation and not