which be Canonicall and which be Apocrypha Protestant 8 How do you know which is the Church And by what meanes may it be knowen that the Church hath authoritie to determine which be Scriptures and which of them be Canonicall and which be Apocrypha Papist There be many notes and markes reckoned vp by the learned of our side by which the Church may be knowen But we insist chiefly vpon these Antiquitie Vnitie Vniuersality Succession and the power of Miracles And for the authority of the Church it is prooued by the Scriptures Protestant 9 This answere is common to all Heretikes for they alleage somtimes the a Author ope Imper. in Mat. Ho. 48. Church sometime b Iren. adu Haere lib. 3. cap. 2. Traditions sometime c Aug. coÌ„tr Maxim Ariâ— episc li. 1. Councels sometime d De Bapt. c. 6. li. 3. Fathers sometime e In Ioh. ca 2. tract 13 Miracles sometime f De vnit eccle c. 16. Visions sometime g Epist 65. ad gener Succession of Bishops yea h Act. 19.27 Demetrius pretended Vniuersalitie And the i Act. 17 18 19. Philosophers Epicures and Stoickes Antiquity And k Vinc. Lir. ca. 6 ca. 4. Vincentius Lirinensis disproueth Vniuersalitie by the example of the Arrians and Antiquity by the example of the Donatists And for their l In Chron. Suput Rom. prat Sigon de Regn. Ital li. â— Vnitie let that appeare in the seuerall oppositions of their Popes one condemning the decrées of another and decréeing one contrary to another And therefore this is no sufficieÌ„t reason for a man to ground his faith and Religion if we beléeue the m StapletoÌ„ Fortresse Hart. ag Ra. pag. 118. Papists in the like cause for it is a common obiection by them that because Heretikes alleage the Scripture therefore they are no suffieient rule Moreouer this answere passeth the limits of the proposition for it presupposeth the authoritie of the Church to be prooued by the Scriptures and the Scriptures to be prooued by the authority of the Church which is Ignotum per ignotius Idem per idem A proofe of a thing vnknowen by a thing lesse knowen and so no proofe at all Therefore to procéede to the next part of the diuision what doe you vnderstand by Traditions Papist I vnderstand Apostilicall doctrine commonly called vnwritten verities and as D.B. P. in his booke against M. Perkins diuides them Some are Diuine some Apostolicall and some Ecclesiasticall all which according to the Councel of Trent are to be receiued with equall reuerence Conc. Trid. Sess 4. and religious affection as we do the Scriptures Protestant 10 How doe you proue Traditions or vnwritten verities to bee Apostolicall doctrine and that they be Diuine Apostolicall and Ecclesiasticall and that they are to bee receiued with equall reuerence and religious affection as we doe the Scriptures Papist 2. Thess 2 15. I proue it by the Scriptures interpreted by the Church Saint Paul saith Hold the Trations which yee haue learned whether it bee by word Conc. Trid. â—ess 4. or by Epistle which by the Churches exposition proueth vnwritten verities to be receiued with equall authoritie to the Scriptures and to explane the same D.B.P. aforesayd affirmeth that Diuine Traditions come from our Sauiour Christ Apostolicall Traditions from the Apostles And the Decrees of the Church hee tearmeth Ecclesiasticall Traditions which are likewise of equall authoritie with the Scriptures Protestant 11 This is a common fault with you to vse this point of Sophistrie called by the Logicians Petitio principij for you wil stil take it for graunted that you are the Church though you neuer prooue it And this is a necessary consequence That if the trueth be doubted of the church must néedes bee much more doubted of because the Church is the number of men professing the trueth And how can the professors of the trueth be seuered from others so long as the trueth by which they should bee knowen is in question Therefore the supposing your selues to be the church when your faith Religion should be tried is fond vain But if S. Paul in that place by Deliuered Tradition meane nothing but the doctrine deliuered to them by word of mouth yet comprised in Scripture too then must you graunt that you are deceiued to thinke that vnwritten Traditions are approued by S. Pauls Traditions Now what the things were which S. Paul deliuered by word to the Thessalonians is shewed in the 17 of the Acts saying Now as they passed thorow Amphipolis and Apolonia they came to Thessalonica where was a Synagogue of the Iewes and Paul as his maner was entred in vnto them and thrée Sabbath dayes hee discoursed vnto them out of the Scriptures opening and alleaging That Christ must haue suffered and risen againe c. In which wordes it is opened both what Paul deliuered to the Thessalonians by word and from whence From whence Out of the Scriptures What That it behooued Christ to suffer and rise againe Besides Saint Paul witnesseth both to small and great that hee said no other thing than that which the Prophets and Moyses did say should come Act. 26 22 The Traditions therefore that Paul doth exhort the Thessalonians to hold is the Tradition of the Gospel as Saint Ambrose writing vpon the same place calleth it very well which the reason also doth prooue that Saint Ambrose noteth that Paul doth there gather saying God hath raised you to saluation by our Gospel therefore stand ye fast and holde the Traditions which ye haue learned whether it be by word or by Epistle Now I hope there is none so impudent to denie that the Gospel is written But here another difficultie incounters vs If it were granted by the Churches interpretation that there were doctrines or Traditions Diuine Apostolicall or Ecclesiasticall deliuered by word of mouth vpon what sure grounds might wee be assured which be the Traditions that were so deliuered by Christ his Apostles or the Church Papist The ancient Fathers chiefe Papists doe plainely teach that many points of doctrine wherein you varie from vs as halowing the Font the blessing of the oyle the anointing the Baptized Exorcismes Fastes Festiuities prayer for the dead prayer to Saints worshipping of Images the oblation of the Sacrifice their Annealing their Primacie of Rome their fiue pretended Sacraments the merit of workes their satisfactions the numbring their sinnes to the Priest their Real presence their halfe CommunioÌ„ c. See the preface for Priests and See Master Middletons booke called Papisto-Mastix Sect. 5. almost all these things which you defend against vs are proued by the Fathers to be deliuered by Tradition Protestant 12 This sheweth euidently that you are guilty of the same fault that the Pharises were Mark 7.9 by Christs owne reproofe saying You cast aside the commaundements of God to maintaine your owne Traditions Mat 15.9 teaching for doctrine
mens precepts So that as Saint Peter hath censured you 1. Pet. 2.18 Yee are not redeemed from the vaine Traditions of your Fathers Besides you chuse rather to make the Fathers to contradict themselues as I haue shewed in the preface of this treatise than to acknowledge with vs as the trueth is that the Traditions mentioned by the Fathers are no parts or points of the Catholike faith But doeth your Church practise all those Traditions which are deliuered by the Fathers to be either Diuine Apostolicall or Ecclesiasticall Papist Yes and although she did not yet is the Churches authority sufficient to abrogate or admit which she pleaseth Protestant 13 Indéede you take that libertie to your selues without all warrant either of Scripture or Fathers For S Hierome which is one of the Fathers alleaged by you for Traditions Dialo coÌ„tr Lucif ca. 4. deliuereth it as an Apostolike Tradition On the Lords day and throughout euery Penticost neither to pray on the knées nor to fast The temper of milke and honie giuen to them that were newly baptised Tertul. de Coro Milit. Nu. 3. is confirmed by Tertullian who likewise reckoneth vp a number of Rites grounded vpon Tradition As that the baptized should abstaine from washing a whole wéeke after Baptisme with much crossing at euery going out at euery steppe at euery comming in at putting on of apparel at putting on of shooes at washings at tables at lights at beddes at seates c. all these are deliuered as the Apostles Traditions which yet the Papists themselues obserue not And if these be not Apostolike Traditions what warrant haue we for any of the rest For as for the Churches authority in abolishing of these you may say as much of the holy Scriptures for you haue said before That Traditions vnwritten Conc. Trid. Sess 4. were of equall authoritie with the Scriptures But doe you thinke the authority of the ancient Fathers to be a sufficient ground to leade vs to accept of all the Doctrine deliuered by Tradition and that whatsoeuer is deliuered by them is to be receiued without exception Papist Yes the ioynt consent of the Fathers Sta. prine doctr li. 7. ca. 13. li. 1â— ca. 5. Hart. â— ag Ray. ca. â— diui â— is an absolute Rule being indeede the Churches exposition Protestant 14 Then must you wholly relinquish all your doctrine and Traditions vnwritten for all the Fathers doe with ioint consent yéelde all their authority to the Scriptures laying it for a Ground that nothing necessary to saluation is to be beléeued without the authoritie of the Scriptures nay that themselues are not to be credited without the scriptures as shal manifestly appeare by the testimonies of these Fathers following yea S. Augustine is so absolute for vs in most of his bookes * Aug Ep 19 ad Hiero Epi 48 Vincent Ep 111 Fortunatiano Epi 112 to Paulina Cont. FastuÌ„ li 11 c. 5. Contr. Cres gram li. 2 ca 11 32 De Bap coÌ„t Don li. 2. c. 2 De merit remiss peccat cont Pelag. lib 3 cap 7. De natur gra ca. 61 De gracia Christi coÌ„tra Pelag cap. â—â— De nuptijs concupisceÌ„t lib. 2 ca. 23. that he would haue the Church sought onely in the scriptures heretikes confuted onely by the scriptures To whose only authority in many places he professeth that he himselfe will be bound So that you must either make these Fathers contrary to themselues Or else grant that Traditions are not of absolute necessitie to be receiued But for that this is a maine point which the Papists insist on I will cleare the same euidently by foure iust exceptions which I referre to the indifferent censure of anie First I will prooue that the Fathers haue attributed all sufficiencie to the Scriptures and haue submitted all their authorities vnto them Secondly That the Fathers haue held diuers errors vpon which it necessarily followeth that if they might erre in one thing they might erre in another Thirdly that they are often reiected by the Papists yea euen the greater number sometimes contrary to their owne rule and therefore may with as great reasoÌ„ be reiected by vs. Fourthly That there are many counterfâ—its bearing the names of ancient Fathers and that often times they are alleaged by the Papists to abuse vs all which particular exceptions I will briefly prooue in order as they lie First Saint Basil saith Tract de fide it is a most certain argument of infidelity and a most certaine signe of pride if any man wil reiect any of those things that are written or bring in any thing that is not written when our Lord saith My sheepe heare my voice and a stranger they will not heare Tertullian saith De resurrect carnis Take away from Heretikes those things which they hold with Ethnikes that they may stay their questions vpon the Scriptures onely and they are not able to stand Saint Augustine saith De doctr Christ li. 2. ca. 9. All things that concerne faith and manners or beliefe and life are plainely written in the Scriptures Chrysostome saith In 2. ad Thessa Ho. 3 That euery thing is cleare and euident by the Scriptures and whatsoeuer things are necessary they are euident In Eusng Ioh. li. 12 cap. 68. Cyril saith That such of the things done by Christ are written as the writers thought to be sufficient for maners and doctrine Epist 11 inter epist August In the controuersie betwâ—xt S. Austin and S. Hierome touching Peters reproofe Hierome alleaged more Fathers on his side and made so great account of them that he desired Austin to suffer him to erre with such men if he thought him to erre Epist 19. To whom Saint Austin replied that peraduenture he might finde as many if he had read much But I saith he haue Paul the Apostle himselfe in stead of these all and aboue these all To him I doe flie to him doe I appeale from all the doctors his interpreters who are of other minds c. Epist 126 ad Euagrium S. Hierome yéelding his opinion to Euagrius a meane man after he had shewed the iudgements of Origen Didimus Hipollitus Irenaeus Eusebius Cesariensis Emisenus Apollinarius and Eustathius saith To bring foorth the witnesses it was my part let it bée yours to iudge of the credit of the witnesses Orig. Hom 1 super Ieâ—em Origen confesseth That their iudgements without witnesse of the Scriptures were of no credit Hierom. in Psal 98. Hierome writeth That all which they spake they were to proue by the Scriptures Hier. in Maâ— 23. and saith in another place That which hath not authority from the Scriptures as easily is despised as approued Saint Basil saith Basil in Ethicis defiâ— 8. If euery thing that is not of faith be sinne as S. Paul affirmeth and faith come by hearing and hearing â—y the word of God Ergo whatsoeuer is without or besides the Diuine
you séene briefly A view of the weaknesse of the Grounds wheron the Papists build their Religion which in a word is The Popes good pleasure And notwithstanding I haue in this small Tract layd downe our iust Exceptions both against Fathers and Councels yet would I haue none rashly to censure that we reiect al the Fathers and Councels for we imbrace them as wholesome meanes by which great light hath béene brought to the Church of God both in the Exposition of the Scriptures and the abolishing and confuting of Heresies But wee reiect with great reason the partiality that is now vsed in calling of Councels which must now only be done by the Pope of which he onely must be President and Iudge contrary to the order of the first 4. Generall Councels which Gregory professeth to receiue as the 4. holy Gospels Neither is any thing of force that is now decréed in Councel vnles it be confirmed by the Pope though in the first 4. Councels the Pope was neither President by himselfe nor his Legates neither needed they his confirmation Besides the whole order of Councels are now inuerted by the Popes contrary both to the institution of the Apostles in the first Councel holden by them â—ct 15.22 â—3 and to all antiquity For now none must haue determining voyces but the Bishops and they must sweare and take this oath before they sit in Councel the forme whereof thus followeth â—ecret li. 2. â—r 24. ca. 4. I R.N. will be faithfull from henceforth to S. Peter and to the holy Church of Rome and to my lord Boniface the Pope to his successors chosen Canonically and I will bee an helper to defend against all the world the Popedome or papall superioritie and the rules of the holy Fathers So God mee helpe and the holy Gospel According to that detestable clause annexed to the Decrees of reformation in the Councel of Trent Ses 7. in prooe Seâ— 25. de Reformat ca. vlt. Salua semper in omnibus authoritate sedis Apostolicae Prouided alwayes that the Popes authority be safe and no way preiudiced So that still he will alwaies haue a non obstante notwithstanding any law to the contrary to breake through all lawes to doe what he list But to conclude wee acknowledge according to the Scriptures That there are two sorts of iudgements in the Church of God The one priuate and the other publike priuate to all the faithful and spirituall 1 Cor. 2.15 10.15 Ioh. 4.1 as God calleth them who are willed to iudge of that which is taught and to trie the Spirits whether they be of God Publike to the asssmbly of the Pastors and Elders Act. 15.6 1. Cor. 14. for of that which Prophets teach let Prophets iudge And the spirits of the Prophets are subiect to the Prophets In all which the Scripture is the rule by which the Church must be directed neither hath she other authority than the ministery of giuing iudgement For the Soueraignty of iudgement must rest on Gods word Mat. 22.10 Iam. 4.12 For Christ is our only Doctor Lawgiuer The Lord open your eyes that you may sée the Truth and be thankefull to God FINIS An Abstract of the chiefe Points of this booke FIrst That all the Fathers do with general consent attribute all sufficiencie to the Scriptures making them the Rule of faith and the absolute meanes to determine all doubts and controuersies preferring them before the Church and all other writings of men whatsoeuer and further that the Church is no otherwise to be shewed or knowen but by the Canonicall Scriptures and that themselues and their opinions without the Scriptures are not to bee beleeued but reiected See the Preface and pag. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 45. 46. 47. 52. 2 That the Scriptures are to be expounded by the Scriptures and that we are not tied for the exposition thereof to any Father Councell or Pope And that no Papist can shew the consent of the Fathers that the scriptures are to be expouÌ„ded by any Father Councell or Pope See pag. 88. 89. 90. 91. 3 That the Fathers agree with vs taking the greater part in approouing those Scriptures which the Protestants doe to be Canonicall and in reiecting those which we do for Apocrypha See pag. 4. 5. 4 That the Fathers take the word Tradition sometimes for the Scriptures sometimes for the Customes and Ceremonies of the Church and the Papists which vrge them for matter of doctrine vnwritten and to bee of equall authoritie with the Scriptures doe depraue the Fathers making their doctrines contrary one to another yea contrary to themselues See the Preface 5 That chiefe Papists and pillars of Popery haue confessed that many and most of the doctrines wherein they varie from vs are grounded vpon Traditions And that it is extreame madnesse to thinke that the whole and entire body of Euangelical doctrine is to bee fetched out of the Apostolike writings and out of that little Booke of the New Testament In which doctrine they goe wholly against the streame of the Fathers and also discouer their abusing of the simplicity of their followers when they make them beleeue the greatest difference betweene them and vs is touching the sense of the Scriptures whereas by this their confession this consequent necessarily followeth That where there is no Text there needes no Interpreter See the Preface 6 That the Papists haue vttered open blasphemy in their bookes against the Scriptures in taxing them of insufficiencie in tearming them a Nose of waxe Inkie diuinitie dumbe Iudges no better than Aesops Fables without the authority of the Church That they take their authority from the Church That sometimes they are to bee expounded one way sometimes another That the Scriptures must folow the Church and not the Church the Scriptures preferring the authoritie of the Church aboue and against the Scriptures All which blasphemies are refuted not onely by the direct texts of Scripture but by the generall consent of the Fathers See the Preface 7 That the Papists vrge the credit of the Fathers for the receiuing of Traditions and though there be many Traditions which by the Fathers testimony haue the same authoritie to prooue them to be Apostolike that the others haue Yet the Papists receiue the one and reiect the other See pag. 12. 13. 8 That the Fathers haue held diuers errors vpon which it necessarily followeth that if they might erre in one thing they might erre in another And that their iudgements are often reiected by the Papists and therefore may with as great reason be reiected by vs and consequently are no perfite Rule to build our Religion on which euen the Fathers themselues confesse See pag. 20. 21. 22 23. 16. 17. 9 That there be many Counterfeits that haue vsurped the names of auncient Fathers wherby it is hard to discerne when a true Father and when a false speakes And though some of these Fathers be censured for counterfeits
A BRIEFE VIEWE of the weake Grounds of Popery As it was propounded to D. NORRICE Priest by T.V. Gent and returned without answere AT LONDN Imprinted by Humfrey Lownes for Samuel Macham and Mathew Cooke and are to be sold in Pauls Church-yard at the signe of the Tigers head 1606. To my dearest Cousins A. B. C. D. MY dearest Cousins with what zeale and feruencie both in my prayers and other indeuours I haue euer desired wee might be of one mind heart God Act. 6. and mine owne conscience can best testifie and your selues may partly witnes with me For as touching the means to this our atonement namely conference with the learned of ech others side and reading their bookes you know well I for my part haue neuer refused it but euermore gladly imbraced and diligently sought after it that so if truth wherof great vaunts were made had been found on your side my heart first then my hand might readily haue subscribed thereto But when I consider the doctrine of your Rhemists Tit. 3. Sect. and the answerable practise of their disciples forbidding you not onely to reade our bookes but to hold conuersation much more to haue conference with vs who must be Heretikes because they tearme vs so yea when I see they blush not to affirme That we are not to be heard â—fâ—r 3. â—ect 2. no not though we speake the trueth I almost despaire of your conuersion seeing the means are prohibited Now how much meeter it were in a case of such consequence being no lesse than the eternal safegard of your soules to leaue them with their errors and to hearken rather and conforme your faith to the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles I referre it to any seeing iudgement For the vniuersall consent of all the ancient Fathers alloweth the Scriptures for the onely Rule of faith as conteining in them all doctrine necessary to saluation And albeit I haue sufficiently among others cleared that question in this smal Treatise following yet will I somewhat inlarge the proofe of it in this place to the end you may better knowe That though you send vs for instruction to to the Fathers yet they send vs backe again to the Scriptures as the onely and sufficient Rule to direct vs. And in handling this point I will not much insist vpon diuine authority since I know you relye chiefly if not wholly on the Fathers Onely I will vrge these few testimonies of Scripture which ought to preuaile more with euery true Christian than all the Fathers how learned soeuer First our Sauiour willeth vs to search the Scriptures for that in them we thinke to haue eternall life Io. 5.39 Mark 1224. And he taxeth the Pharises of error because they were ignorant of the Scriptures 2. Tim. 3.15 16 17. S. Paul likewise affirmeth that they are able to make vs wise vnto saluation that the man of God may be perfite instructed to euery good worke And if this perswade you not I haue no hope that any Father can for as Christ saith Luk. 16.29 30 31. They haue Moyses and the Prophets if they will not heare them neither will they beleeue if one rose from the dead Now as to the Fathers though your side pretend so much to reuerence them yet in this question they wholly reiect them and that indeede not without cause seeing their authority in this one point might proue the downefall of your whole Religion it being confessed by some great Champions on your side That many and most of the doctrines wherin you varie from vs are grounded on Traditions and not on the Scriptures as any that will take the paines to reade may see in Peter Soto against Brentius in the fift chapter of Canisius Catechisme in the * In fine fabulae 6. 5 booke of Lyndans Panoply yea * Scripto suâ— aedito tempore Trid. Concil Andradius saith That the greatest part of Catholike Religion is left vnto Traditions of the Church not written â—anopl li. 1. â— 22. demeÌ„â—ssimae insaâ—iae And the said Lyndan saith It is most extreme madnes to think that the whole entire Body of Euangelicall doctrine is to be fetched out of the Apostolike letters written with inke and out of that little booke of the new Testament And therefore so much the more are your leaders seducers to be taxed who perswade their folowers that the greatest differeÌ„ce between them and vs is touching the Sense of the Scripture wheras euery man of common sense wil easily iudge that where there is no Text there needs no Interpreter But let vs briefly see what opinioÌ„ the Fathers were of in this coÌ„trouersie betweene vs and how they haue vnderstood that Scripture which D. B. P. calles the Protestants Achilles which hee onely barkes at without further hurt â— B. booke â—gainst M â—erkins calâ—ed the 1. â—im 3. the â—rot Achilâ—es Hom. 9. Chrysostome vpon the same Text sayth If any thing be needefull for vs to learne or to be ignorant of there meaning in the Scriptures shal we learne it If to reproue falsehood from thence shal we draw it if any thing lacke to be corrected or rebuked which must be had vnto exhortation vnto comfort there also doe we learne it Likewise Ho. 8. vpon the 15. verse he saith The scriptures do teach both what things are to be done what not to be done Theodoret vpoÌ„ the same place saith The scripture is inspired of God Therfore he teacheth the kinds of vtilitie It is profitable to teach for whatsoeuer we know not we learne out of it To reproue It reproueth our wicked life To correct for it exhorteth that they which haue gone astray returne to the right way To instruct in righteousnesse for it teacheth vs the kinds of vertue that the man of God may bee perfit furnished to all good workes All these things doe attribute and ascribe perfection to the God of all Primasius saith Out of the scriptures he that is ignorant is taught Hee that is insolent is reprooued He that erreth is corrected He that can keep no measure is instructed to Iustice to euery good worke not vnto one Oecumenius sayth after he hath rehearsed the particular vtilities to teach all true opinions and good works to reprooue errors vice he concludeth that the man of God may be not onely partaker after a vulgar maner of euery goodworke but perfect and compleate by the doctrine of the scriptures Not to some kind of good worke and to some not But to all and euery good worke saith Theophilact Athanasius saith Atha contr gent. Chrys opeâ— imperf in Mat. Ho. 41. Aug. in Iohâ— Tract 44. The holy scriptures inspired from heauen are sufficient for all instruction of trueth Chrysostome saith whatsoeuer is requisite for saluation all that is fully laid downe in the Scripture S. Augustine sayth There were chosen to be written such things as seemed to the holy Ghost sufficient for
the saluation of the faithfull And in his second booke against Cresconius the Grāmarian he saith That there is an Ecclesiasticall Canon ordained whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles By which bookes we iudge all other writings both of the faithful of the Infidels Hier. sup Agge cap. 1. Hierom sayth Those things which of their owne heads they deuise as though they came by Apostolike Tradition without the authority and testimony of the holy Scriptures the sword of Gods word striketh Infinite be the Authorities of the Fathers which might be brought to this purpose but I will conclude the point with Vincentius Lirinensis whome D.B.P. in his booke against M. Perkins Vincent aduer Haeres beleeueth not to haue any such wordes who saith The Canon of the Scripture is perfect and sufficient and more then sufficient to al things And again Not that saith he the Canon alone is not sufficient for all things These Fathers I hope knew the Scriptures aswell as D.B.P. or any other Papist and yet notwithstanding al his their obiections the Protestāts Achilles as he tearmeth it stands vnimpeacht by any thing that this or any other cauiller hath said And yet notwithstanding these euident places brought by the general consent of all the Fathers against the fundamētal Ground of Popery Your Rhemists wil tel you Rhem. Test 2. Thes 2. sect 18.19 if you wil beleeue them that they haue to the contrary plaine Scriptures all the fathers most euident reasons that wee must either beleeue Traditions or nothing at all And that S. Augustine often writeth That many of the articles of our Religion and points of highest importance are not so much to be prooued by Scriptures as by Tradition But if we aske them where S. Austine wrote this often and that of many articles of Religion and poynts of highest importance it must be returned with Non est inuentus Not to be found in S. Austin But they perceiuing the whole waight of their cause to lie in this Rhem. Test fol. 559. haue marshalled nine Fathers in a ranke to proue that we must either beleeue Traditions or nothing And yet the very same Fathers haue shewed That no matter of faith or of any moment to saluation must bee receiued or beleeued without the Scriptures Cypr. ad Pomp. cont epist Stepha Basil contr Eunomium lib. 3. and the Fathers often times by Traditions vnderstand matters contained proued out of the scriptures that in regard the same was deliuered also by word And many times by Traditiōs they vnderstād ceremonies and customs Now chuse whether you will grant a flat contradiction in the Fathers or reconcile them thus and conclude with vs Ergo the Traditions they meane be no parts or points of the Christian faith For we haue their plain confession That all things necessary to saluation are comprised in the scriptures you produce them to witnes That your Traditions be not comprised in the scriptures Ergo by your owne deponents wee conclude That your Traditions be neither necessary to saluation nor points of the Catholike faith Looke wel to this Issue They must either dissent frō you or from themselues Now if you will compare the late doctrine of the Romish Church with these Fathers it shal be euident That they haue not only dissented frō them but also vttered open blasphemy against the sacred Scriptures First Cardinal Cusanus intituleth his booke De authoritate ecclesiae Cōcilij supra contra scripturam Of the the authority of the Church Coūcel aboue against the scriptures Syluester Prierias master of the Popes palace Contr. Luther cōclusi de pot Papae saith That indulgences are warranted vnto vs not by the authority of the scripture but by the authority of the Church and Pope of Rome which is greater Boniface the Archbishop of Mentz saith That all men so reuerence the Apostolike See of Rome that they rather desire the ancient institution of Christian Religiō from the Pope than from the holy scripture This saying the Pope hath so approued that he hath caused it to be inserted into the Cannon lawe Dist 40. c. Si Papa Another saith whosoeuer resteth not on the doctrine of the Roman Church and B. of Rome Syluest Prier contr Luther as the infallible rule of God à qua sacra scriptura roburtrahit auctoritatem from which the sacred scripture draweth strength and authority he is an heretike Eckius saith De Ecclesia Scriptura nisi ecclesiae auctoritate non est authētica The scripture is not authētical but by the authority of the church Cardinal Hosius saith De expresso verbo Dei If any man haue the interpretation of the Church of Rome concerning any place of scripture although he neither knowe nor vnderstand whether and how it agreeth with the words of the scripture notwithstanding he hath ipsissimū verbū Dei the very word of God Cardinal Cusanus saith Nicol. Cusan ad Bohem epi. 7. It is no maruel though the practise of the Church expound the scriptures at one time one way and at an other time another way for the vnderstanding or sense of the scripture runneth with the practise And that sense agreeing with the practise is the quickening spirit Henric. doctor Magister sacripalatij Romae ad Legatos Bohemicos sub Felice Papa 1447. Ad Bohem. ep 2. and therefore the scriptures follow the Church but contrariwise the Church followeth not the scriptures Another saith The Pope may change the holy Gospel and may giue to the Gospel according to place and time another sense To conclude therfore with Cardinal Cusanus This is the iudgement saith he of all them that thinke rightly that foūd the authority vnderstanding of the Scriptures in the allowance of the Church and not contrariwise lay the foundation of the Church in the authority of the scriptures I will not mention others that haue blasphemously said Vid. Chemnit exa par 1. pag. 47. That the scriptures without the authority of the Church are no better than Aesops Fables Thus you see how the Grounds of our Religiō are iustified by the Fathers against these blasphemies of the Romish Church And for that I knowe it commonly obiected that we refuse in disputation conference to handle the groūds of Religion I haue thought good in this smal Tract to examin though briefly the Grounds of your Romish Religion dialogue-wise to the end the truth may be the more liuely discerned by the obiections and answers Wherein if I haue not truely laid downe the Groūds of your Religion for the substance therof Or that they haue either bin mistaken by me or that vsing that breuity I haue done they might be more strongly or effectually vrged on your side or that the reasons vrged on our behalfe be either falsly alleaged or not truly handled I shall take it as a speciall grace done vnto me an argumēt of
sée it the Sepulchâ—e opened for his sake and the body assumpteâ— into heauen he saith not one word of these conceits Nay he rather saith against them for he noteth namely That Iames was also present the brother of the Lord and Peter the chiefest and ancientest top of the Apostles And it is not likely he would haue noted two if they had beene all present here is no lesse than seuen lies in lesse than sixe liues Now let vs sée how Damascen your Portesse agréeth For DamasceÌ„ saith The Angels sung almost thrée dayes The Portesse thrée whole dayes Damascen saith The rest of the Apostles would shew to one of them who was absent the bodie The Portesse saith Thomas who was absent would worship the bodie Now what thée Damascen was let your owne doctors tell you who except against him for his tale of Gregory the Pope â—anus locoâ—m Theol 〈◊〉 11. â— Hessels â—nsure de â—stor sanct â— 3. â—erm de funct in 〈◊〉 and Traiane the Emperour Thus Damascen reporteth That Gregorie while he went ouer the market place of Traian did pray for Traians soule to God and behold a voice from heauen I haue heard thy prayer and I pardon Traian but see thou pray no more to me for the wicked These be good places to prooue prayer for the dead and yet it is against popish doctrine that prayer can deliuer any out of hell And if he had béen in Purgatory the Pope could haue dispatched that of himselfe without praying The next is Athan in Euang. de deipara who speaks not one word of your miraculous fault And yet is the same Athanasius reiected for a bastard in your owne edition In edit Petr. Nannij Louan praefat ad episcop Atiebat The last is fiue sermons of S. Barnards in all which likewise there is not one worde of that miracle So that vnlesse they were disposed to lie for the whetstone it is to be wondred how they dare thus abuse their Readers both with the names of counterfeit Fathers and false forgeries If I should collect all such like stuffe it would growe greater than this smal Tract But let the Christian Reader iudge of the rest as hee prooues these to be truly brought against them And if any desire further proofe of the Rhemists sincerity in alleaging Fathers let him obserue these places viz. The constitutions of Clement Luk. 4. Sect. 1. Ignatius Matt. 4. Sect. 2. 1. Peter 2. Sect. 6 Dionysius Areopag Act. 8. Sect. 6. Hypolitus Mat. 24. Sect. 5. Policarpus Act. 6. Sect. 1. Miltiadi Fabian Act. 8. Sect. 6. S. Andrew S. Martiall Hebr. 10. Sect. 11. The Masses of S. Iames Basil and Chrysostome 1. Cor. 11. Sect. 10. Clicton for Ciuil Ioh. 11. Sect. 1. and Paulinus Ioh. 9. Sect. 2. All these are counterfeit Fathers and vrged by the Papists vnder the names of true Fathers to countenance their corrupt doctrine And therefore no maruell if popish leaders instruct their followers to get vs into the plaine field of their Motiues out of our weake and false castell of onely Scripture as Bristowe the Licentiate tearmeth it Brist Motiu 48. And it is no maruell that they haue such store of the Fathers and that our new masters as they tearme vs cannot compare with these Fathers in the doctrines they deliuer when they bring vs onely the names of fathers I could giue instance likewise how the Fathers are often contrary one to another yea contrary to themselues Thus I hope it is plainly prooued by these foure iust exceptions that the Fathers iudgements are no infallible rule for a man to build his faith on though it be imbellisht with the churches exposition And yet wee reuerence and honor them as men that haue brought great light to the vnderstanding of the Scriptures But what doâ— you vnderstand by intituling the ancient Fathers with the name of the church Papist I meane Harâ—â—g Rai that the ioint consent of the Fathers in all doctrines deliuered by them is the doctrine of the Church Protestant 15 What doe you meane by the ioint consent of the Fathers Papist I mean by the ioint consent of the Fathers that which all or the most part of them doe deliuer for trueth wherin if there be any difference the greater number is to be followed for a fewe may bee deceiued more easily than many Protestant 16 This rule séemes to be very vncertaine for you knowe that king Ahab was deceiued by the consent of false prophets 2. Chron. 1â— 5 11. euen 400. against Micaiah yea when the Fathers in the great Councel of Nice were about to decrée that Bishops Priests DeacoÌ„s should not vse their wiues Paphnutius alone Sozom. li. 1. cap. 2â— rose vp in the midst of their Councell and fréely contradicted it and preuailed Besides in the third Exception before it is plainely shewed that the greater number of Fathers are by your selues reiected in the diuision of the coÌ„mandements and in the controuersie betwéene S. Austine and Hierom touching Peters reproofe par 1. wherein your selues grant Torrensis confes Aug. lib. 2. cap. 1. tim â— that Austin iudged more soundly What is therefore then to be done that a certaine and sure ground may bee found out Papist Then a better and more sure way is that which by the faithfull Pastors of the Church is decreed in a generall Councell which cannot erre Protestant 17 Indéed I must confesse it is a sure way to build our faith vpon those Councels which cannot erre But how shal we be assured that they cannot erre Papist We are assured by the Scriptures That the Church cannot erre as is euident by these places following Mat. 18.20 Our Sauiour Christ saith That when two or three are gathered together in his name that he will be in the midst And Ioh. 16 13. he promiseth to send vnto his Church the holy Ghost which shall leade them into all trueth 1. Tim. 3. And S. Paul calles it the Pillar and ground of trueth Vpon which places and many other which for breuity I omit wee conclude that the Church cannot erre which to speake as the Schoolemen doe we call the Church representatiue because the whole Church is there represented in a gerall Councell Protestant 18 Take héede what you doe Will you bring the Church contrary to the iudgement of many learned Papists mentioned in the preface of this booke to take her authority from the Scriptures and to be tried by them whether it may erre If you doe it will be the vtter ruine and destruction of your Religion for the Scriptures will conuince the Councel of Constance of error in taking away the cup from the Laitie contrary to S. Pauls expresse commandement saying 1. Cor. 11. Let a man examine himselfe and so let him eate of this bread and drinke of this cup. And contrary to the Institution and commaundement of Christ himselfe saying Drinke you all of this Mat. 26.27
and wordes in it That b Ca. 35. the ende whereto c Ca. 37. the matter whereof it is all written bee marked in generall d Ca. 35. 40. and all be vnderstood according to that end and matter e Li. 2. ca. 8 that all bee read ouer and ouer f Ca. 9. and those things chiefly noted which are set downe plainely both precepts of life and rules of beleefe because that all things which concerne beliefe and life are plainely written in it That obscure and darke speaches be lightened and opened by the plaine and manifest that to remoue the doubt of vncertaine sentences the cleare certain be followed that g Ca. 11. recourse be had vnto the Greeke and Hebrew copies to cleare out of the fountains if the translation be muddy that h Li. 3. ca. 2 3. doubtfull places bee expounded by the rule of faith which we are taught out of the plainer places of the Scripture that i Ca. 1. all the circuÌ„stances of the text be weighed what goeth before what coÌ„meth after the maner how k Ca. 10. the cause why l Ca. 17. the men to whom m Ca. 18. the time when euery thing is said to be short that n Ca. 27. we seeke to know stil the will meaning of the Author by whoÌ„ the holy Ghost hath spokeÌ„ if we find it not yet giue such a sense as agreeth with the right faith approued by some othe place of scripture o C. 18. If a sense be giueÌ„ the vncertainty wherof cannot be discussed by certain sure testimonies of scripture it might be proued by reason but this custom is dangerous the safer way far is to walke by the scripture the which being shadowed with darke and borrowed words when we mind to search let either that come out of it which hath no doubt coÌ„trouersie or if it haue doubt let it be determined by the same scripture through witnesses to be fouÌ„d vsed thence whersoeuer that so to conclude p Li. 4. ca. 3 all places of the scriptures be expounded by the Scriptures the which are canonical as being the Canon that is to say the rule of godlines faith All which rules we confidently imbrace And we constantly affirme that neither he nor any other auncient Father did euer attribute the expounding of the Scripture for the true sense therof to any Pope or bishop whatsoeuer And although D. Stapl. except against these Rules of S. Austin which is common to all Papists by special priuiledge when the Fathers make against them as I haue already partly proued and shal appeare to any that for a clearer manifestatioÌ„ therof wil take a view of their Index expurgator yet doth S. Austin iustifie himself De doctr Christia li 1 a Prolo saying If they who know these precepts cannot see the things which are obscure darke in the scriptures of God the fault is in themselues not in the precepts as if I should point with my finger at a starre which they would gladly see and their eye-sight were so weake that although they could see my finger yet could they not see the starre at which I point Let them saith he cease to blame mee and let them pray to God that hee will giue them eye-sight And to the ende I may giue some proofe of euery thing I affirme and to giue a taste of the vile practise of the Papists It shall not be amisse to set downe their owne words namely the iudgement of the Vniuersitie of Doway approued by the Censors of the Councel of Trent concerning the booke of Bertram according to the Decree of the Councel the Title Vt liber Bertram c. How the booke of Bertram Index expurg 8. pag. â—1 Priest of the Bodie and Blood of our Lord being amended may beÌ„ tolerated Although wee make no great account of this booke therfore we would not greatly care if either it were no where extant or vtterly lost yet seeing it hath been already ofteÌ„times reprinted hath been read of most men and being prohibited by name hath been made knowen to all men seeing also the heretikes do know of the prohibition thereof by diuers Catalogues and that he was a Catholike Priest and a Monke of the Abbey of Corbey and was welbeloued and reuerenced not so much of Carolus Magnus as of Carolus Caluus and doth helpe the story of that age And seeing that in other ancient Catholike writers wee beare very many errors and extenuate them excuse them and very often times by deuising some pretie shift we denie them Excogitato Commento and do faine some commodious sense vnto them when they are opposed aginst vs in disputation or in conflicts with the aduersaries wee do not see why Bertram doeth not deserue the same equity and diligent Recognition lest the Heretikes should Iangle against vs that wee burne vp and prohibite Antiquitie which maketh for them and therfore it is no maruel that so few things seeme to make for them when wee Catholikes do so vnreuerently hisse out and destroy antiquitie which but in shewe dissenteth from vs. Moreouer we feare least this booke not onely by Heretikes but also by vnruly Catholikes by meanes of the prohibition thereof may be read more greedily alleaged more odiously and doe more hurt being inhibited than if it were permitted And vpon these considerations they take order and shew how this booke at the next printing shall be falsified by adding putting out changing of the Wordes and Sentences and by peruerting the whole scope and meaning of the Author The last part of the obiection is that there must bee some Tribunall on earth to iudge which is trueth And in this Question they réele sometime to the Church and sometime to the Pope who they will haue to bee Iudge of trueth and that the Church which sometime they intitle to the Pope and sometime to Generall Councels are to be iudge of the Scriptures To this I answere That absolute Iudge of trueth can no man be for God is truth of God I trust no man may be Iudge The Sonne of God saith of himselfe Iohn 14. 1. Iohn 5. I am truth and S. Iohn testifieth The spirit is truth Therefore ye can be no Iudges of trueth vnles you will be Iudges of God And the Father hath committed all iudgement to the Sonne and my iudgment Iohn 5. 8. saith Christ is Iust Christ saith My sheep heare my voice They be no iudges of his voice which is the Scriptures A Iudge of the Law is no obseruer of the Law as S. Iames insinuateth since the whole Church is bound to obey the Law of God Iam. ca. 4. they be no iudges of the law S. Austin saith It is inferiour to vs Aug. in Psa Idem de vera religio ca. 31. whatsoeuer we be Iudges of And again The eternall Law of God therefore it is lawful