not mentioned in the scriptures but also manifestly oppugned it is to bold hard a speech that I say no more to et the petegree of the Archbishop from the Apostles times and from the Apostles themselues Io. Whitgifte I must answere you still as Zuinglius answered the Anabaptists in the like obiection and as I haue answered you before the Papists make their traditions necessarie vnto saluation and therefore they are to be reiected bicause the worde of God conteyneth all things necessarie to saluation I make those offices part of decencie order Ecclesiasticall gouernment and pollicie whiche admitteth alteration as the tymes and persons require and are not particularly expressed in the Scriptures no more than diuerse other things be in the same kinde as I haue prooued before And that this may séeme no straunge matter or any thing fauouring the Papists vnwritten verities you may call to remembrance that which M. Caluin sayth of such traditions Caluine vpon these wordes 1. Cor. 11. Quemadmodum tradidi vobis instituta tenetis I do not denie sayth he but that there were some traditions of the Apostles not written c. as I Tract 2. haue before recyted speaking of Ceremonies not expressed in the worde And you may sée that wise and learned men are not so scrupulous in Apostolicall traditions not written so that they be not such as are made necessarie vnto saluation neyther is any learned man of contrarie iudgement And therefore Archbishops may well be brought from the Apostles tymes without any daunger of admitting the vnwritten verities of the Papists You haue not yet proued that eyther the name or office of Archbishoppes is in any respect oppugned in the worde of God and therefore that is but feyned Chap. 3. the. 27. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. But all this time M. doctor hath forgotten his question which was to proue an Archbishop whereas all these testimonies which he alledgeth make mention onely of a bishop therefore this may rather confirme the state of the bishop in this realme than the Archbishop But in the answere vnto them it shal appeare that as there is not in these places so much as the name of an Archbishop mentioned so except only the name of a Bishop there shall be founde very little agreement betwene the Bishops in those dayes and those which are called Bishops in our time and with vs. Io. Whitgifte M. Doctor remembreth that the Authours of the Admonition aswell denie the office of a Bishop as the office of an Archbishop and hée is not ignorant that the proofe of the one is the confirmation of the other and therefore he vseth suche testimonies as perteyne to them both of the whiche nature those places be that he hath hitherto alledged For you muste vnderstande that I spake before of the name and nowe according to my promise I speake of the office whiche is not so farre distant from the Bishops but that in moste things they be confounded But let vs nowe heare how you performe your promise Chap. 3. the. 28. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 2. And consequently although M. doctor thought with one whiting boxe to haue whited two walles by establishing our Archbishop and Bishop by the same testimonies of the fathers yet it shall be plaine that in going about to defend both he left both vndefended Io. Whitgifte Wordes of pleasure too too vsuall with T. C. but of smal weight God be thanked and of lesse truth Chap. 3. the. 29. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 2. 3. Let vs therfore come first to examine Ieromes reasons why one must be ouer the rest for in the testimonie of men that is onely to be regarded which is spoken either with some authoritie of the scripture or with some reason grounded of the scripture otherwise if he speak without either scripture or reason he is as asily reiected as alleaged One sayth he being chosen to be ouer the rest bringeth remedie vnto schismes how so least euery man sayth he drawing to himselfe do breake the Church in pieces But I would aske if the Church be not in as great daunger (*) Here you cōfound a monarchie and a tyrannie when all is done at the pleasure and iust of one man and when one carieth all into error as when one pulleth one piece with him an other another piece the third his part also with him And it is (a) Not so if tha one do gouerne by lawe harder to draw many into an error than one or that many should be caried away by their affections than one which is euident (b) Your similitudes hold not in water which if it be but a little it is quickly troubled and corrupted but beeing much it is not so easily But by this ecclesiasticall Monarchie all things are kept in peace Nay rather it hath bene the (c) Vntruth cause of discorde and well spring of most horrible schisme as it is to be seene in the very decretals Decret par 2. c. 9. q. 3. can Apost 33. alibi passim themselues (d) A good tor for contentio And admit it were so yet the peace which is without truth is more execrable than a thousande contentions For as by stryking of two flintes togither there commeth out fyre so it may be that sometymes by contention the truth which is hidden in a darke peace maye come to light which by a peace in naughtinesse and wickednesse being as it were buryed vnder the ground doth not appeare Io. Whitgifte Ierome being a man of such singular learning and great credite among those that be learned in a matter of Hystorie as this for hée reporteth when one Byshop was T. C. descredueth the author whom he cannot answe e. placed ouer the rest and for what cause is more to be beléeued withoute reasons than you with all your popular and friuolous arguments Let the reader againe consider whether this be your maner or no by vaine reasons to shake the credite of the authour when you cannot otherwise answere The reasons that you vse for the popular or Aristocraticall gouernment of the Church when they come among the people will be easily transferred to the state of the common weale and peraduenture bréede that misliking of ciuill gouernment that you would now haue of Ecclesiasticall to a further inconuenience and mischiefe than you and all yours will be able to remedie In the meane time you vtterly ouerthrow T. C. ouer he 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 ecclesiasti all the Quéenes authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters giuen vnto hir by the lawes of God as hereafter shall be proued For if the state must eyther be popular or Aristocraticall then must there be no one supreme gouerner in Church matters but I wil come to your reasons First you aske whether the Churche be not in as great daunger when all is done at the pleasure and lust of one man and when one carieth all
obedience but in respecte of the commaundement and worde of God therefore it followeth that the word of God directeth a man in all his actions that which 1. Tim. 4. S. Paule sayd of meates and drinkes that they are sanctifyed vnto vs by the word of God the same is to be vnderstanded of all things else whatsoeuer we haue the vse of But the place of S. Paule in the. 14. to the Rom. is of all other most cleare where speaking of those things which are called indifferent in the ende he concludeth that whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne but faith is not but in respect of the word of God therfore whatsoeuer is not done by the word of God is sin And if any will saye that S. Paule meaneth there a full persuasion and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that that which he doth is well done I graunt it But from whence can that spring but from fayth and how can we persuade and assure ouresclues that we doe well but whereas we haue the worde o God for our warrant so that the Apostle by a metonunie Subjecti pro adiuncto doth giue to vnderstand from whence the assured persuasion doth spring wherevpon it falleth out that for as much as ma our actions euen ciuill and priuate we ought to follow the direction of the word of God in matters of the Churche which concerne all there may be nothing done but by the word of Go (a) Then haue you heth r to stri ed in vaine Not that we say as you charge vs in these wordes when you say that we say that (b) Holde you here no 〈◊〉 c. may be in the Church except the same be expressed in the word of God but that in making orders ceremonies of the Church it is not lawful to do what men list but they are bound to follow the generall rules of the scripture that are giuen to be the squire wherby those should be squared out Io. Whitgifte When I say that the scriptures containe all things necessary vnto saluation I doe Now scripture 〈◊〉 the direction of all things belonging to the life of man Page 15. not meane that it containeth those things onely neither doe I denie but that the worde of God so containeth generally the direction of all things pertayning to the Churche or that 〈◊〉 fall into any part of mans life that nothing ought to be done in the Churche or in the life of man contrarie to the word of God or not according to the true intent and meaning of the same Yet doe I denie that the scriptures doe expresse particularly euerie thing that is to be done in the Church which you your selfe afterward confesse or that it doth set downe any one certaine forme and kynd of gouernment of the Churche to be perpetuall for all times persons and places without alteration as I shall hereafter more particularly declare The place you do alleage out of the. 2. chap. of Salomons Prouerbes doth not proue your purpose for Salomon there teacheth the fruites and commoditie of wisedome and in the person of hir declareth what vnderstanding he shall haue in righteousnesse iudgement equitie and euery good pathe that harkeneth vnto wisedome obeyeth hir commaundements and giueth his hart to knowledge But what is this to proue that the scripture hath expressed euery particular ceremonie or kind of gouernment in the Church how followeth this reason if Princes and such as be in authoritie receiue the words of wisedome and hide hir commaundements within them c. they shall vnderstand Pro er 2. righteousnesse iudgement and equitie and euerie good pathe c. therfore the scriptures do expresse euerie ceremonie order discipline or kinde of gouernment that is to be vsed in the Church surely except you take héede you wil wander as farre out of the way in aleaging the scriptures as the authors of the Admonition did in quoting them I graunt you that Princes muste giue them selues to the vnderstanding of wysedome and especially of the wisedome of God contained in his word for so shall they vnderstande righteousnesse iudgement and equitie and euerye good pathe c. But what is this to our question Magistrates must be directed by the worde of God Ergo they must make no ciuill or ecclesiasticall lawe or order which is not expressed in the word of God I deny this argument Your other text is written in the. 1. Cor. 10. VVhither therfore we eate or drinke c. Whervpon you frame this argument whatsoeuer 1. Cor. 10. we do we must do it to the glory of God but no man can glorisie God in any thing but by obedience and there is no obedience but in respect of the commaundement and word of God Therfore it followeth that the word of God directeth a man in all his actions to omit the vndigested forme of this argument wherin the conclusion agréeth not with the 〈◊〉 this text is as farre frō the purpose as is the other for what sequele is this we must do all to the glory of God we must obey the cōmandement wordes of God Ergo we must do nothing in our whole life but that which is particularly expressed in the worde of God Or therfore the scripture expresseth euery particular ceremonie or er or kind of gouernment to be vsed in the Church You may as well by this place conclude that euery ciuil actiō euery priuate actiō euery ciuil kind of gouernment is expressed in y ◠word For this rule of S. Paule is general and pertaineth to all Christians of what state conditiō or degrée so euer they be But the true meaning of S. Paule in y t place is that we seke y e glory of God in all things do nothing that is against his word and commādement He glori ieth God in meate drinke which acknowledgeth God to be the giuer of them and then is thankefull for them and vseth them moderately c. the like is to be said of all other actions That whiche Saincte Paule you say sayde of meates and drinkes that they are sanctified vnto vs by the worde of God c. It is true but to what purpose doe you alledge that 1. Tim. 4. place The woorde of God pronounceth all Gods creatures to bée good and the vse of them to bée lawful for al thyngs are cleane to those that bee cleane the same are to Tit. 1. 15. be desyred by vs of hym as the author and giuer of them and when we haue them wée must be thankefull for them But what is this to the proofe of any thing that wée haue nowe in controuersie But the place of Saincte Paule in the. 14. to the Romains you saye is of all other moste cleare c. Wherevpon you frame this argumente Paule speaking of things which are called indifferent sayeth that whatsoeuer is not of sayth is synne but faythe is not but in respecte of the woorde of God therefore
what soeuer is not doone by the woorde of God is synne still I omitte the euill framing of your argumentes For I respecte not the defacing of your skill but the groundes of youre proofes That sentence of Saincte The place in the. 14. to the Rom. expoūded Paule is also generall and it is to be extended to all ciuill actions as well as it is to Ecclesiasticall and therefore if it proue that all Ciuill and Politike actions and kyndes of gouernmente muste bée particularlye expressed in the Scrptures it proueth the same in Ecclesiasticall matters also else not But the meanyng of the Apostle is that wée shoulde doe nothyng agaynste oure conscience nothing but that whyche wée doe beléeue not to displease God not to bée agaynste hys woord or cōmaundement For not to be of Fayth hath dyuers significations Fyrst it signifieth that that is contrarie to the perswasion of the faythe and iudgement of the conscience Secondly it signifyeth not to be taken as an article of Faith If it be taken in the fyrst signification Then it is not true that whatsoeuer can not be proued in the worde of God is not of fayth for then to take vp a strawe to obserue manie Ciuill orders and to doo a number of particular actions were agaynste faythe and so deadely synne bycause it is not founde in the woorde of God that wée shoulde doe them The whyche doctrine muste néedes bryng a greate seruitude and bondage to the conscience restrayne or rather vtterly ouerthrowe that parte of Christian libertie whiche consisteth in the frée vse of indifferent thinges neyther commaunded nor forbidden in the worde of God and throwe men headlong into desperation For what man is able to shewe the woorde of God for all thyngs he dothe If it bée taken in the seconde signification then it is true that that is not of Faythe whyche can not bée proued by the woord For nothyng is to bée beléeued as an article of faith which cannot bée proued by the woord of God In this 14. to the Romaines not to bée of Faythe is taken in the fyrste signification that is agaynste the persuasion of the faythe and iudgemente of the conscience as thoughe hée shoulde saye whatsoeuer a man dothe agaynste his conscience that is synne And thys to bée the true meanyng of thys place the woordes Rom. 14. vers 22. goyng before doe declare where the Apostle sayeth Blessed is he that condemneth not himselfe in the thyng whiche he alloweth that is whose dooyngs are not agaynste hys conscience Thys rule I saye of Saincte Paule extendeth as well to Ciuill actions as it dothe to Ceremonies and orders of the Churche and therefore what you wil conclude of the one that muste you also conclude of the other But I thinke you will not saye that euery ciuill action muste be expressed or commaunded in the woorde of God wherefore neyther can you proue by these wordes of S. Paule that euery ceremonie order or kinde of gouernmente in the Churche must be commanded by the woorde of God But what néede I laboure so muche in a matter at the lengthe confessed The matter in controuersie is by T. C. confessed by youre selfe for you denye that you saye That no Ceremonie c. maye bee in the Churche excepte the same bee expressed in the woorde of God but that in makyng orders and ceremonies of the Church it is not lawfull to doe what men liste c. Holde you here and wée shall soone agrée For neyther dothe that that I haue hythertoo spoken in thys matter nor that whyche I intende to speake héereafter disagrée from thys the whyche you myghte haue séene yf it it had pleased you page 22. and. 28. of the Answere to the Admonition and in my Pag. 22. sect 2. Pag. 28. sect 2. whole discourse of that matter Wherfore if you were constant and not contrarie vnto your selfe or at the least not desirous to haue shewed your selfe contrary to that which I haue in this point written though you here confesse it to be true you might haue both eased your selfe and me of this labour Chap. 1. the fyfte Diuision T. C. Page 15. lin 8. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Which rules I will here sette downe as those which I would haue as wel all orders and ceremonies of the Church framed by as by the which I will be content that all those orders and ceremonies which are now in question whether they be good and conuenient or no should be tried and examined by And they are those rules whiche Sainct Paule gaue in suche cases as are not particularly mentioned of in the Scripture 1. Cor. 10. 1. Cor. 14. The fyrste that they offend not any (a) You ad especially to the text especially the Churche of God The seconde is that which you cite also out of Paule that all be done in order and comelynesse 1. Cor. 14. Rom. 14. The thirde that all be doone to edifying The last that they be done to the glorie of God So that you see that those thyngs which you recken vp of the houre and time day of prayer c. albeit they be not specified in the Scripture yet they are not left to any to order at their pleasure ▪ or so that they be not against the worde of God but euen by and according to the woorde of God they must be established and those alone to be taken which doe agree best neerest with these rules before recited And so it is brought to passe which you thinke a greate absurditie that all things in the Churche shoulde be appointed according to the worde of God whereby it lykewyse appeareth that we denye not but (b) Here in effect T. C. confesseth the matter in question certayn thyngs are left to the order of the Church bycause they are of that nature which are varyed by tymes places persons and other circumstances and so coulde not at once be set downe and established for euer (c) What is affirmed otherwise ▪ in the answer to the Admonitiō and yet so left to the order of the church as that it doe nothing agaynst the rules aforesayd But howe doth this followe that certaine things are left to the order of the Churche therfore to make a new ministerie by making an Archebishop to alter the ministerie that is appoynted by making a Bishoppe or pastor without a Churche or flocke to make a Deacon without appoynting him his Church wherof he is deacon and where he myght exercise his charge of prouiding for the poore to abrogate cleane both name and office of the eldet with other more how I say do these followe that bycause the Church hath power to order certayne things therefore it hath power to do so of these whiche God hath ordeyned and established of the which there is no tyme nor place nor person nor any other circumstaunce whiche can cause any alteration or change whyche thing shall better appeare
these lawes I will declare in a T. C. triumpheth before the victoris more speciall place In the meane time you blow the triumph before the victorie for as yet you haue not proued that the scripture doth appoint any certaine kind eyther of ciuill punishment or Church discipline for such as contemne or neglecte the comming to publike prayers and hearing of the word of God You say that there are other punishments for such as neglect the word of God c. but you neither tell vs what they be nor where to find them Chapter 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 16. Sect. 1. line 3. I omit that there be examples of Pulpits in Esdras of chaires in the. 23. of Math. whereby the chaire of Moses our sauioure Christ meaning the doctrine of Moses doth also declare the manner which they vsed in teaching of sitting at the Communion whiche the Euangelist noteth to haue bin done of our fauioure Christ with his disciples whiche examples are not to be lightly chaunged and vppon many occasions Io. Whitgifte Examples of Pulpits you say we find in Esdras True it is that in the. 8. of Nehem. we reade Esdras stoode vpon a Pulpit of wood which he had made for the preaching but the same was placed in the open stréete neyther did Esdras any thing but reade The other persons with the Leuites mentioned vers 7. of that Chap. did cause the people to vnderstand the law that is made them giue diligent eare to the reading of the law And although there be words in the. 8. verse which as they be translated séeme to insinuate some kinde of interpretation yet the meaning is nothing so for these be the words Et apposuerunt intellectum intellexerunt scripturam illam that is as learned men do interprete it aduerterunt animum they were attentiue to the reading or Nebem 8. as some translate it Et legerunt in libro legis Dei distinctè appositè ad intelligendum intellexerunt cum legeretur And they read in the booke of the law of God distinctly and in such sort as they might easily vnderstand Hereof may I much better gather that reading is preaching than you can do that the scripture appointeth Pulpits For though Esdras did so is it therefore by and by a rule to be followed You reade not of any of the Apostles that did in like manner neither is there any mention made of Pulpits from the beginning of the new testament to the end of the same And this place maketh rather for Pulpits to reade in than for Pulpits to preach in It is most certaine that by the chaire of Moses in that place is ment the doctrine of Moses whether it declare any place or no made for Moses to teach the people in that is but coniecturall neyther haue we any example expressed either in Moses himselfe or in any other that may resolue that doubt Howsoeuer it is the matter is not great For things vsed in the old Church do not prescribe any rule to the Church of Christe vnlesse it can be shewed Christe himselfe and his Apostles to haue vsed the same My meaning is that in the whole scripture there is neither Pulpit nor chaire prescribed to be vsed in the Church of Christe but that and such other like things left to the disposition of the Church as shall be thought most conuenient from time to time What though Christ sat at his last supper doth it therefore follow that of necessitie we must néedes sit why must we not then as well be bound to receiue the same after supper I say agayne that the scripture dothe no where prescribe whither we shall sit stand or knéele at the communion if it do prescribe sitting why do some of you vse walking othersome standing whiche both do more differ from sitting than knéeling doth Chap. 1. The eight Diuision T. C. Page 16. Sect. 2. 3. But this I cannot omit that you make it an indifferent thing to preach the worde of God in Churches or in houses that is to say priuately or publikely For what better interpretation can I haue than of your owne words which saith by and by after of Baptisme that it is (a) An vntruth for there is no such thing said at the order of the Church to make it priuate or publike For if it be in the power of the Church to order that Baptis e may be ministred at the house of euery priuate person it is also in hir power to ordayne that the word be preached also priuately And then where is that whiche Salomon saith that (b) A place of scripture strāge lv applied wisedome crieth openly and in the streates and at the corners of the streates where many ieete and where be the examples of the old Church which had besides the Temple at Ierusalem erected vp Sinagogues in euery towne to heare the word of God minister the circumcisiō (c) These places proue that the word ought to be preached publikely but not onely publikely what is become of the commaundement of our sauioure Christ whiche willed his disciples that they should preach openly and vpon the house topps that which they hard in the eare of him and secretly and how do we obserue the example of our sauioure Christ who to deliuer his doctrine from all suspicion of tumults and other disorders sayd that he preached openly in the temple and in the Sinagogues albeit the same were very daungerous vnto him and the example of the Apostles that did the sa ie for as for the time of persecution when the Church dare not nor it is not meete that it should shew it selfe to the enimie no not then is the word of God nor the sacramentes priuately preached or ministred nor ought to be For although they be done in the house of a priuate man yet bycause they are and ought to be ministred in the presence of the congregation there is neither priuate preaching nor priuate baptisme For like as wheresoeuer the Queenes maiestie lyeth there is the Court although it be in a gentleman his house so wheresoeuer the Church meeteth it is not to be holden priuate as touching the prayers preachings and sacraments that shall be there ministred so that I denie vnto you that the Chnrch hathe power to ordeyne at hir pleasure whither preaching or ministring of Sacraments should be priuate or publike when they ought not to be but where the Church is and the Church (d) This is only said but not proued ought not to assemble if it be not letteed by persecution but in open places and when it is driuen from them those places where it gathereth itselfe togither although they be otherwise priuate yet are they for the time that the Churches do there assemble and for respect of the word and sacraments that are there ministred in the presence of the Churche publike places And so you see those whome you charge slanderously with
like matters I woulde wishe you to deale sineerely the question that we haue nowe in ▪ The suttle dealing of T. C. in altering y e state of the controuersie hande is VVhether the Scripture hath expressed all externall things touchyng the orders Ceremonyes and gouernment of the Churche I proue it hath not both by the Scripture it selfe and by manyfest examples and by the iudgement of the beste learned you not beyng able to answere and yet desyrous to séeme to saye somewhat to shifte of these examples and authorities dallie at the matter and would make your Reader beléeue that I woulde haue thyngs vsed in the Churche contrarye or not accordyng to the Scriptures from the whych opinion I am as farre of as you and a greate waye farther excepte you reuoke some poyntes of youre Booke You shoulde therefore nowe haue kepte you to the improuyng of thys generall proposition and if hereafter in speakyng of particular matters I had approued any thing against the word of God you might haue spent ▪ your wit and eloquence in confuting of that You saye that thys place of Saynte Augustyne maketh muche agaynst me c. but you are greatly deceyued for Saint Augustyne in that place doth not gyue a certayne rule to the whole Churche but to particular men for it is hys aunswere so Ca ulanus demaundyng of hym Vtrùm liceat sabbato ieiunare A priuate man maye not take vpon hym to violate the particular orders of anye particular Churche much lesse suche orders as be obserued of the whole Churche excepte they be agaynst the Scriptures for bothe in thys and suche other rules of Augustyne that is generally to be obserued whyche the same Augustyne dothe adde in hys 118. Epistle ad Ianuarium quod nequè contra fidem nequè bonos mores iniungitur c. And that thys Augu. ep 〈◊〉 rule In bis rebus de quibus nihil certi c. is gyuen to particular men to dryue them from schismes and contentions in the Churche it is euident by that whyche the same Augustyne writeth in the ende of that Epistle ad Casulanum VVherefore if Idem you wyll willyngly content your selfe wyth my counsell namely whych haue in this cause being by you required and constrayned spoken peraduenture more than enough doe not resiste your Byshoppe herein and followe that whyche he dothe wythout any scruple or doubte Wherefore when Saint Augustyne sayth Mos populi Dei c. hys meanyng is that they are to be obserued as rules to kéepe priuate and particular men in order and in quiet obedience to the Churche Althoughe in deede The Church may not alter any order generally obserued without iust cause the Churche it selfe maye not wythoute iuste cause chaunge suche thyngs as haue beene generally obserued not beyng contra fidem bonos more 's agaynst faythe and good manners as the Lordes daye the daye of the Resurrection Ascention and suche lyke And there maye be iuste causes why thyngs once determyned by the Churche shoulde not be chaunged afterwardes thoughe before the same thyngs were arbitrarye and myghte haue béene otherwyse and in some other manner decréed as the Churche had thoughte moste conuenient If no suche causes be it maye alter anye vse Ceremonye or order whiche it hathe before determyned as Saynt Augustyne hym selfe declareth Epist. 118. ad Ianuarium His Idem enim causis id est propter fidem aut propter mores vel emendari oportet quod perperam fiebat vel institui quod non fiebat Ipsa quippe mutatio consuetudinis etiam quae adiuu t vtilitate nouitate perturbat For these causes that is to saye for faythe and good manners eyther that muste be amended whiche was euyll done or appoynted which was not done for euen that chaunge of Custome whych helpeth throughe profitte doth trouble through noueltie Nowe howe true thys collection of yours is Augustyne prescribeth thys rule to Casulanus that in those thyngs wherein the Scripture hathe determyned no cer aynetie he shoulde followe the Custome of the people of God and the decrees of oure forefathers that is that he shoulde vse hymselfe in those thyngs ▪ that be not agaynste faythe and good manners accordyng to the order of the Churches where he commeth therefore these Customes vpon iuste cause maye not be altered by the Churche let the learned Reader iudge Ap nate man a I sayde may not breake the lawfull and good orders of the Churche thoughe they be not expressed in the worde of God yet maye suche as God hathe gy that authoritie vnto in hys Churche alter and chaunge them as shall be moste 〈◊〉 euen according to this r le of Augustyne bis im 〈◊〉 id est aut propter fidem aut prop ores vel emendari oportet quod perpe m fiebat vel institui quod non f ebat c. before by me recyted We must followe suche cu omes of the Apostles and examples as they haue vsed What examples and customes of the Apostles we must follow and done for vs to followe but suche customes or doyngs of the Apostles as 〈◊〉 eyther peculiar vnto thems lues o 〈◊〉 onely for such 〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉 in ▪ we are not compelled to followe For as in the Scriptures 〈◊〉 be me preceptes generall some onely rsonall so are there in the sa of examples and orders some that for euer are to be obserued and some for a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that there were suche customes and orders among them shal be declared in seue all places as occasion is minis red Whether we haue receyued or maye retayne customes c. of the Papistes or no is partly to be discussed where I speake of apparell and partly in other places where more particular occasion is offered to speake of the same and therefore I will passe it ouer vntill I come to those places Whyther it were well done to fast in all places according to the custome of the place or no is not the question I looke to Augustynes meanyng and purpose not to euerye one of hys examples howbeit I thinke that there is a greate difference betwixte the manner of fastyng vsed then in the Churche and the manner of fasting vsed nowe in some Churches I thinke that in Augustynes tyme a man myghte haue obserued this rule of fastyng wythout anye offence to God But I doe not thinke that he may doe so in lyke manner nowe bycause it is certayne that in the Churche of Rome there are manye wicked opinions bothe of differences of meates tymes c. and also of merite ioyned to theyr fastyng and therefore are contra fidem bonos more 's and so not wythin the compasse of thys rule of S. Augustine I perceyue no repugnancie at all betwixte Ambrose Augustyne Ignatius and The Replyer setteth the fathers together by the eares without cause Tertullian For the Sabboth daye mentioned by Ambrose and Augustyne is not the Lordes daye whych we call the
our saluation then must we be bounde vpon necessitie of saluation to obserue the whole Ceremoniall law which was the commaundement of God What was the commaundement vnto Abraham to offer his sonne Isahac Genes 22. vnto the Israelites to robbe the Egyptians vnto Moses to put off his shoes vnto Exod. 11. Saule to kill Amalech and infinite other needefull for our saluation is the commaundement Exod. 3. of the Apostles to abstayne from bloud and that whiche is strangled or of 1 Sam. 15. Paule vnto Timothie to drinke wine c. needefull for our saluation What a torment Act. 15. is this doctrine able to bring vnto a weake conscience whiche hathe not obserued 1. Tim. 5. any one of these You muste therefore vnderstande that there are diuers kindes of commaundementes of God and of the Apostles some generall and giuen to all other Diuerskinds of commaundements personall and pertayne onely to one singular person or to one nation and kinde of people c. Agayn there are some which are perpetual not to be omitted or altered other which are temporall and may be omitted or altered as the circūstance of time place persons doth require Wherby it may appeare howe grossely you haue erred in affirming that all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for oure saluation I might in more ample maner prosecute this matter but this that hathe bin spoken may suffice What I haue sayde of chaunging the Lordes day and howe you haue satisfied my wordes is declared before and so is the answere made likewise vnto this your féeble conclusion grounded vpon a falie principle Which of vs two is caried furthest by his affections let the indifferēt reader iudge by these and suche other like dealings of yours I haue tolde you before howe muche this and the other places of S. Augustine maketh for my purpose whiche you can not but vnderstande if you soughte not corners to creepe into for the auoyding of suche reasons and authorities as be moste apte for my purpose Things whiche the Apostles haue done for vs to followe without any exception may not be violated but the question is whether these things whiche they haue done and written be sufficient for the ordering and gouernment of all Churches in all times and states or no. And whether in all things that they haue done we may or oughte to follow them both which you haue hitherto very slenderly touched Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 24. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Pag. 25. Sect. 1. And agayne Quod neque contra fidem neque contra bonos more 's iniungitur indifferenter est habendum pro eorum inter quos viuitur societate seruandum est That vvhich is enioyned being neither agaynst fayth nor good maners is to be counted indifferent and to be obserued as the societie of those vvith vvhome vve lyne requiteth In the same Epistle answering this question whether vpon the Thursday before Easter the Lordes supper shoulde be celebrated in the morning or at nighte because Christe dyd institute this Sacrament and deliuer the same to hys Disciples after supper he gyueth these three rules worthy to be noted the first is this If the holy Scripture prescribe any thing to be done there is no doubte but that muste be obserued as it is there prescribed The seconde is this That if any thing be vniuersally obserued of the vvhole Churche not repugnant to the Scriptures for so he meaneth not to keepe that or to reason of that is madnesse The thirde If it be not vniuersally obserued but diuersly in diuers Churches Faciat quisque quod in ea ecclesia in quā venit inuenerit Let euery man do as he findeth in that Churche into the vvhiche he commeth modònon sit contra fidem aut contra mores So that it be not agaynst faythe or good maners for so he addeth In the same Epistle agayne he sayth that the Lorde hath not in Scripture declared in what order and maner his Supper shoulde be celebrated but lefte that to his Disciples And in his hundreth and nintenth ad Ianuar. In those things sayth he that be diuersly obserued in diuers places this rule as moste profitable is to be kepte that those things vvhich be not agaynst faythe neither good maners and make something to exhorte vnto a better life vvheresoeuer they are instituted vve ought not onely not to disallovve them but to prayse them and to follovv them By all these places of this learned father it is euident that it hathe beene receyued from time to time as a certayne truthe that the Church of Christ hath authoritie to ordayne and constitute as shall be necessarie in those things before of me rehearsed For a further proofe heereof I coulde alleage that auncient and learned father Iustinus Martyr in his seconde Apologie pro Iustinus Martyr Christianis and in his booke of questions Tertullian in his booke Decorona militis Basill also in his 63. Epistle writtē to the ministers of Neocaesaria Tertul. Eusebius Lib. 5. Ecclesiasti histor Cap. 25. 26. and diuers other but I omit Basil. them for breuitie sake neither doe I alleage those learned fathers Euseb. because I thinke their authoritie any thing at all preuayleth with the authors of the Libell but for the wyse discrete humble and learned whose humilitie and wysdome wyll not suffer them to despise the iudgements of so learned and godly fathers T. C. Pag. 18. Sect. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. Pag. 19. Sect. 1. As for that rule that he giueth when he say the what so euer is not c. and for the last of the three rules I receyue them with his owne interpretation whiche he hathe afterwarde in 119. Epist. ad Ianuarium whiche is that it be also profitable And as for those three rules which you say are worthy to be noted I can see nothing that they helpe your cause one whitte for I knowe no man that euer denied but that the Church may in suche thinges as are not specified and precisely determined make orders so they be grounded of those generall rules which I haue before alleaged out of S. Paule And as for the seconde of the three rules I can not at any hande allowe it for when all Christianitie was ouerrunne with poperie thinges were vniuersally obserued whiche to keepe were meere wickednesse and this strengtheneth the Papistes vniuersalitie Concerning your Glose if it be not repugnant to the scripture besides that it is not inough because it muste be grounded by the Scripture and that it is wicked to giue suche authoritie to any decree of men that a man shoulde not enquire of it or reason of it I haue shewed that he mente nothing lesse For affirming that suche thinges are the Apostles commaundementes his meaning was that they shoulde be without all exception receyued and absolutely 〈◊〉 muche better is it that wee take heede to
the words of the Apostle than eyther to S. Augustines or yours whiche sayth that if he or an Angell from heauen shoulde preache any other (1) M Doctor speaketh not of preaching another Gospell but of appoynting other rites and orders Gospel than that whiche he had preached that they shoulde holde him accursed he saythe not any contrarie or repugnant doctrine but any other Gospell But tell me why (2) Bicause it nothing pertaineth to my purpose S. Aug. mangled and not truely reported passed you by that in Augustine which he writeth to Ianuarie likewise that those thinges whiche are not contayned in the Scripture nor decreed of Councels nor confirmed by generall customes but are varied by the maners of Regions and of men vpon occasion offered oughte to be cutte off althoughe they seeme not to be agaynst faythe because they presse with seru e burdens the religion whiche Christe woulde haue free This sentence belyke was to hotte for you you could not carie it Therest whose names you recite whiche you say you leaue off for breuitie sake I leaue to the iudgement of the Reader to consider wherefore they bee lefte out seeing that Augustine in whome you put so great trust answereth so little to your expectation This is certayne that bre tie whiche you pretende was in small commendations wyth you (3) Wordes of pleasure whiche make so often repetitions stuffe in diuers sentences of doctours and wryters to proue thinges that no man denieth translate whole leaues to so small purpose (4) Tu pe est doctori c. vpon so lighte occasions make so often digressions sometymes agaynst the vnlearnednesse sometymes agaynst the malice sometymes agaynst the intemperancie of speeche of the authors of the Admonition and euery hande whyle pulling oute the sworde vpon them and throughout the whole booke sporting your selfe with the quotations in the margent so that if all these were taken oute of your booke as winde out of a bladder we shoulde haue had it in a narrowe roome whiche is thus swelled into suche a volume and in steade of a booke of two shillings we should haue had a pamflet of two pence And whereas you say that you haue not alleaged these learned fathers for the authors of the Libell but for the wyse discrete humble and learned to them also I leaue it to consider vpon that whiche is alleaged by me First howe lyke a diuine it is to seeke for rules in the Doctours to measure the making of ceremonies by whiche you mighte haue had in the Scriptures there at the riuers heere at the fountayne vncertayne there whiche heere are certayne there parte false whiche are heere altogither true then to howe little purpose they serue you and laste of all howe they make agaynst you Io. Whitgifte I take that whiche you graunte bothe the first rule whiche is Quod neque contra fidem c. and the laste of the thrée with what interpretation soeuer you admitte them serue my turne very well and fully proue my present purpose Wherefore in graunting of them you haue graunted as muche to me as hitherto I haue desired Of the rules out of S. Paule I haue spoken before so haue I likewyse of the endes whiche the Churche must haue a respect vnto in hir decrées of orders ceremonies and gouernment wherof also I shall haue occasion to speake hereafter The seconde of the three rules you can not at any hande allowe but there is no cause why you should mislike it For Augustine did giue it as a rule méete for his tyme not for all tymes althoughe it may serue also for all times if his meaning be ioyned wyth it that is If that which is vniuersally obserued of the whole Churche be not repugnant to the worde of God and so it strengtheneth not one whit the Papistes pretended vniuersalitie In mattrrs of order ceremonies and gouernment it is sufficient if they be not repugnant to the scripture Neither do I thinke any great difference to be betwixt not repugnant to the worde of God and according to the worde That whiche is generally obserued and of that kinde that the rule meaneth is Decrees that perteyne to order comelinesse are not only humane not onely mans tradition and decree but Gods also M. Caluin teacheth you in his Institutions Cap. 13. Sect. 31. that suche kinde of decrees as pertayne to order and comelynesse are not onely humane but diuine And he bringeth in for an example knéeling at publike prayers S. Augustines meaning is that he would haue no factions or contentions in the Church or any man to trouble the peace thereof by setting him selfe agaynst lawfull orders and customes of the same otherwise I thinke that he neither forbiddeth to enquire or reason of any such matter But you think that Augustine was so adicted to such decrées of the Apostles that his meaning was to haue them receyued without all exception Surely I thinke that he was so persuaded in déede of such decrées as he meaneth and speaketh of in that place But for as muche as in suche rules he hath sundrie times made suche exceptions Quod neque cóntra fidem c. therfore this rule also is to be receyued of vs according to his meaning in all suche like rules God forbid that I should not take heede to those words of the Apostle hold him accursed which shall preache any other Gospell than that which he had preached For I take him that preacheth any other Gospell to preache contrarie and repugnant doctrine to the Apostle and vndoubtedly he that teacheth any thing to be necessary to saluation which is not comprehended in the scripture teacheth a false doctrine and cleane contrarie to the doctrine of the Scripture But you do not vse this place I am sure agaynst any thing that is héere sayde Our question is not of matters pertayning to saluation but of ceremonies of externall orders and discipline Whereof S. Paule speaketh nothing in that place I make them not matters of saluation neither are they I will tell you why I passed by that whych S. Augustine writeth to Ianuary Epist. 119. and is nowe recited by you because it nothing pertayneth to my purpose and yet it is rather with me than agaynst me But let me nowe aske you an other question why do you not truly report S. Augustines S. Augustine mangled and vntruely reported by T. C. words but mayme them both before behinde and in the middest for Augustine in the wordes that immediatly go before sayth That he was muche gréeued because that many things which were more profitably commaunded in the worde of God were neglected by reason of so many presumptuous obseruations of outwarde ceremonies the omitting whereof was more greeuously punished than the breaking of Gods commaundements And vpon this occasion he concludeth thus Omnia itaque talia quae neque sanctorum c. All suche ceremonies scilicet as be impediments to the obseruing of the
commaundement of God and are preferred before Gods commaundementes beeing neither contayned in the holy Scriptures nor founde decreed in the Councels of Bishops nor cōfirmed by the custome of the whole Church but are varied innumerably by the diuers maners of diuers Regions so that scarcely or neuer the causes can be found out whiche men followed in appoynting of them when occasion is offered I thinke they ought to he cut off without any doubt Hitherto Augustine Therefore in reciting the wordes of S. Augustine in this place first you haue omitted the wordes going before that expresse his mynde and declare that he meaneth suche ceremonies as be impedimentes to the obseruing of Gods commaundementes for hauing spoken of suche before in manyfest wordes he concludeth as I haue sayde on this sort Omnia itaque talia c. All suche ceremonies c. whiche words you haue fraudulently kept backe Secondly where S. Augustine speaketh of the vnreasonable multitude of ceremonies vsing these wordes innumerabiliter variantur are varied innumerably you haue likwyse lefte out this word innumerably which also expresseth Augustines meaning Laste of all you haue concealed a sentence in the middest whiche is very materiall to the declaring of Augustine his minde The sentence is this Ita vt vix aut omninò nunquà m inueniri possint causae quas in eis instituendis homines secuti sunt So that scarcely or neuer the causes can be founde oute whiche men followed in appoynting of them Whereby it is playne that he also meaneth suche ceremonies as bée appoynted without reason or cause And yet in the latter ende he addeth But the Churche of God beeing placed betwixte muche chaffe and darnell dothe tollerate many thinges c. But I am so farre from defending the multitude or burdensomnesse of ceremonies that I consent in all poyntes with that saying of Augustine wherefore this sentence is nothing to hotte for me but pleaseth me righte well And it had bin more for your commendation if you had not medled withall They whose names I héere recite thoughe I haue not written their wordes yet in the places whiche I haue qnoted doe affirme as muche as I recite them for whiche you might haue founde if you had taken paynes to searche for the same as I thinke verily you haue done and founde little for your purpose and therfore are content to passe them ouer in silence If I make so ofte repetitinons I doe but as I am occasioned by them whome I answere and as you do your selfe in this Replie though it pleaseth you not to be acknowne of it The sentences of Doctors and writers that I stuffe in argue that I haue red them and that I am not ashamed to lay them open to the ende my playne dealing may be séene in alledging of them But what did you before fynde faulte with my Dumbe doctors and can you not nowe abyde them speaking surely I intend not to be directed by so vnconstant a guyde If I proue things that no man denyeth you hadde the lesse laboure in replying If I translate whole leaues to so small purpose they be the sooner answered if vpon so lighte occasions I haue made so often digressions you will take héede I am well assured that you offende not in the lyke which truly you haue forgotten in this place for here is a digression without all reason But I will let your reuerende and modeste speaches passe and not recompence them with the lyke for it neither sauoureth the spirite of God neither yet any modest and good nature but a stomack swelling rather against the person than against the cause My purpose is not in this place to seke for rules to measure Ceremonies by but to proue that in Ceremonies and other externall things muche is lefte to the discretion of the Churche whiche is not to be founde in Scriptures and yet I know none of these rules vnméete for a diuine to search for or to vnderstand vnlesse it be suche a one as contemneth all other mens learning but his owne But how happeneth it that you haue answered nothing to the last place that I haue alleaged out of Augustine Or why say you nothing to my conclusion whiche is that by all those places of this learned father it is euident c. In all this your replie you haue greatly faulted in ignorantia Elenchi for you haue not reasoned nor answered ad idem but spoken altogether from the purpose T. C fauire in ignorantia Elenchi ▪ ¶ The opinion of M. Caluin of things indifferent Chap. 4. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 25. Sect. 2. 3. Pag. 26. 27. 28. Pag. 29. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. But I trust M. Caluines iudgement will weigh something with them who in his Institutions Cap. 13. Sect. 31. 32. speaking of traditions sayth in this sort Bicause the Lorde hath both faithfully and plainly comprehended and declared in the holie scriptures the whole summe of true righteousnesse all the parts of the true worshipping of him and what so euer is necessarie vnto saluation therfore in those things he is only to be heard as a maister or teacher But bicause in externall discipline ceremonies he would not particularly prescribe vvhat we ought to folow bicause he foresavv that this depended vpon the state and condition of the time neyther did iudge one form or maner to be agreable to al ages here we must haue a respect to those general rules which he gaue that according to thē might be examined such things as the necessitie of the Church requireth to be cōmanded for order decencie Finally bicause in these things he hath expressed nothing for that they are neither necessarie to saluation and may be diuersly applied to the edifying of the Church according to the maner and custome of euery countrey and age Therfore as the cōmoditie of the Church requireth as shal be thought conuenient both the old may be abrogated nevve appointed I graunt that we must not rashely nor often nor for euery lighte cause make innouations But vvhat hurteth and vvhat edifieth charitie wil best iudge which if vve vvil suffer to be the moderatrix al shal be safe wel Now it is the office of Christian people vvith a free cōscience vvithout su-superstition with a godlie minde and readie and willing to obey to obserue those things which are appointed according to this rule not to contemne them nor negligently to omit them so farre off ought they to be from breaking them openly thorough disdaine and contumacie But thou wilte say vvhat libertie of conscience can there be in so precise and straight obseruing of them truely the libertie of conscience may well stand vvich it if we shall consider that these lavves and decrees to the which we are bounde be not perpetuall or suche as are not to be abrogated but only externall rudiments of mans infirmities wherof notvvithstanding we all stande not in neede yet vvee all vse them bicause one
to the word and yet not conteyned in the worde Men may haue an opinion of Religion and merite in suche thinges as they thinke not to be of necessitie to saluation To be shorte men may make that sinne whych the worde of God maketh not sinne as all those doe whiche forbid the vse of indifferent things and make the same vnlawfull as I haue sayde before You sée nowe that there is no one parte of this diuision as you call it which dothe not include something not conteyned in the other partes and therfore all those vnséemely and immodest tauntes and words mighte haue bin forborne I aske no forgiuenesse of you for any thing that I haue wrytten But I beséeche God forgyue you your outrageous contemptes and vnchristian floutes and iestes where with your booke is more pestered than any of Hardinges is where he sheweth him selfe moste scurrilous But I will omit them all and onely desire the Reader to consider of what spirite they come and in bothe our writings to respecte the matter not the person Touching the exposition of the places of Deut. let the learned Reader compare it with the expositions of the learned Interpreters and then iudge of my vnskilfull The Replier hath spēt many wordes in confuting that which he him selfe cōfesseth diuiding and defyning Here now I wold gladly know what T. C. hath proued agaynst the thing y t I haue here writtē or how he hath iustified y e propositiō of y e Admonition which I haue refelled for the sūme of al is this The authors of the Admonitiō say that those things onely are to be placed in the Churche which God him selfe in his worde commaundeth This I confesse to be true in matters of saluation and damnation But I saye it is vntrue in matters of ceremonies rites orders discipline and kinde of gouernmente which béeing externall matters and alterable are to be altered and chaūged appoynted and abrogated according to time place and person so that nothing be done agaynst the worde of God And T. C. confesseth page 15. that Pag. 15. Sect. 5. certayne things are lefte to the order of the Churche bicause they are of that nature which are varied by tymes places persons and other circumstances and so could not at once be set downe and established for euer and yet so lefte to the order of the Churche as that it doe nothing agaynst the rules aforesayde The same dothe he affirme in effecte in this place Nowe I pray you tell me what difference is there in our wordes he saythe that certayne thinges are lefte to the order of the Churche c. so that nothing bee done agaynst the rules aforesayde And I saye that the Church hath authoritie to appoynt orders rites ceremonies c. so that nothing be done agaynst the worde of God In déede he goeth muche further in this matter than I doe for where I saye The Scripture expresseth all things necessarie to saluation he affirmeth that many things are bothe commaunded and forbidden c. as I haue before noted and is to Pag. 13. Sect. 2. be séene page 13. of his booke But to ende this matter I haue iustified my assertion by the scriptures 1. Cor. 14. Act. 6. and. 15. 1. Cor. 11. Also by the testimonies of Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian Cyprian Ambrose Basill Augustine c. Likewise by the practises of Councels the reporte of Historiographers as Socrates and Sozomenus Finally by the iudgement of late writers M. Caluin and Bucer Now will I also adde a fewe wordes for the further confirmation of the same and so ende this question ¶ The opinion of other late wryters of things indifferent The. 7. Chapter Zuinglius in his booke de baptis after that he had declared howe the Scripture contayneth Zuinglius all thinges necessarie vnto saluation he sheweth That in externall things and matters of ceremonies many things are to be vsed in the Churche whiche be not contayned in the Scriptures And speaking of this place Philip. 3. If any think otherwise God will also reueale the same vnto you neuerthelesse in that wherevnto we are come let vs proceede by one rule or agree among our selues saythe That the Apostle there speaketh of nothing else than of externall ceremonies and rites the vse and administration whereof the same Apostle in that place affyrmeth to be in our vvill and povver so that vve doe nothing repugnant to the commaundement of God Neyther trouble the publyke peace whereof we oughte to haue especiall regarde for externall thinges These be the very wordes of Zuinglius in the which there is first to be noted the interpretation of the words of the Apostle Philip. 3. Secondly that he vseth Collections out of Zuinglius this exception So that we doe nothing repugnant to the commaundement of God which T. C. so muche misliketh The same Zuinglius in the same booke verifieth in playne wordes that whiche I before haue touching a negatiue argument from the authoritie of the Scriptures Peter Martyr vpon the. 1. Corinth 1. wryteth That there be three kindes of traditions P. Martyr one expressed in the Scriptures an other playne repugnant to the worde of God The thirde neither contrarie to the worde of God nor yet necessarily ioyned to the same in the vvhich vve muste obey the Churche These three cautions beeing obserued First that they be not obtruded as worship of God or peculiar holynesse but as pertayning to order and the ciuill commoditie of the Churche and to comelynesse in diuine actions for all thinges be sufficiently contayned in Scriptures that pertayne to the worshipping of God and holynesse Secondly that they be not counted so necessarie but that they may be altered if time require Let the Churche keepe hir interest and authoritie in these indifferent things to appoynt vvhat shall be thoughte most necessarie and meete to edifying Last of all that the people of God be not burdened with to great a multitude of them Thus farre Martyr Gualter in his preface to the first Epistle to the Corinth after that he hath declared Gualter the diuersitie of rites vsed in diuerse Churches concludeth on this sort VVherefore S. Augustine writing to Ianuarius after that he had layde forth diuerse ceremonyes of Churches obserued in his time dyd very well thinke that this shoulde be the most safe rule vnto Christian men if they did frame them selues vnto those Churches wherevnto they should come in those things which might be done without any preiudice vnto fayth and godlynesse his wordes are these There is in these things meaning customes and rytes no better rule or instruction for a graue and wise Christian than that he do after that manner the which he seeth vsed of the Church vnto the which he shall peraduenture come c. The which moderation if all men woulde vse at this day there would be lesse contention in the Church neither shoulde Christian libertie be abridged by the superstitious traditions
Churche of England but by such as haue bene Massemongers and now zealous godly learned preachers T. C. Pag. 27. Sect. 2. 3. But you aske what they saye to M. Luther Bucer Cranmer Latimer Rid ey I praye you when did these excellent personages euer slide from the Gospel vnto Idolatrie which of them did euer say Masse after God had opened them the truth what hath so (a) Euen the A monition which I confu e for it speaketh generally and maketh no such distinct blinded you that you can not distinguishe put a difference betwene one that hauing bene noussed from hys youth vp in Idolatrie commeth afterwardes out of it and betwene him which hauing knowledge of the Gospel afterward departeth from it and of such is the place of Ezechiel of such I say as haue gone backe and fallen away I knowe none that haue bene Preachers of the Gospell and after in the tyme of Queene Mary Massemongers which now are zealous godly and learned preachers if there be any such I thinke for offence sake the Churche mighte better be withoute them than haue them You saye God in that place sheweth howe greeuous a synne Idolatrie is in the Priestes especially And is it not nowe more greeuous in the Minister of the Gospell whose function is more precious and knowledge greater and if the synne be greater shoulde it haue nowe a lesse punishment than it had then howe shall the faulte be esteemed greate or little but by the greatnesse or smalnesse of the punishment you sayde before the places of Deuteronomie touching adding and diminishing nothing from that which the Lorde commaundeth were for the Iewes and are not for our times And this commaundement of God in Ezechiel you say serued for that time and not for ours Io. Whitgifte The examples of M. Luther Bucer Cranmer c. do sufficiently confute the Admonitiō The exāples of Luther c. are directly against the Admonition the words wherof be these In those dayes no Idolatrous sacrificers or heathenish priests were appoynted to be preachers of the Gospell but we allow and like well of Popish Massemongers men for all seasons king Henries priests c. here you sée that they doe not onely condemne suche as once knowing the truth haue afterwards departed from it but suche also as haue at any time sacrificed why shoulde they else name king Henries priests seing it is euident that the masse was not abolished in King Henries time so that I haue better cause to aske what hath so blinded you that you could not vnderstand their meaning the words being so plaine or rather that you would in that point wilfully blind your self others also I know some that being preachers of the Gospell after in the time of Queene Mary massemongers which now are zealous godly learned preachers of as good fame and credit with godlie men as any be in this land without offence be it spoken neither be the quiet humble members of the Churche offended with them but reioyce at their conuersion and praise God for them But you frame your doctrine according to your affection towardes certaine persons Doctrine framed according to mens persons as y e maner now a dayes of some is for this doctrine hath béen taught generally that no Idolatrous priest shuld remaine in the ministerie these examples of Luther Bucer c. haue béen lightly reiected as repugnant to the conunaundement of God but now being better aduised remembring that some in that case be great promoters of your opinions this mitigation forsooth must be made that such as were preachers in king Edwards time c. they I meane your fautors were professors though they were no preachers they were also in Quéene Maries time Massemōgers now they be preachers yet all is well for you haue the law in your hands to coyne what opinions you list to adde to them or to take frō them what you list to apply not apply them to whom and when you list euen Popelike The sinne of Idolatrie is nowe as great an offence as it was then but the external ciuill punishment for the same is in the power of the Magistrate being a portion of Tract 2. cap. 6. the. 5. diuision the iudiciall law the necessitie wherof is wholy abrogated as I haue proued before Those precepts in Deut. were giuen to the Iewes both for the iudiciall ceremoniall law also they be giuen to vs for the law of faith good maners only for we are clearely deliuered from the ceremonies of the law the iudicials wherof this in Ezechiel is a portion are not enioyned to Christians vpō any necessitie but left to the discretion of the ciuil Magistrate And therfore I haue said nothing either of those places of Deut. or of this of Ezech. which I wil not by learning good authoritie iustifie Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 39. Sect. vlt. God in that place of the prophet Ezechiel sheweth how greeuous a sinne idolatrie is especially in the priests but he prescribeth no generall rule of secluding them from their ministerie if they falling afterward repent T. C. pag. 27. Sect. 4. You worke a sure way which to mainteine your corruptions denie the scripture which speaketh against them to be vnderstanded of those which be in our time that to be vnderstanded of our ministers which was of theirs or of our faultes which was of theirs This is not the way to Anabaptisme but to all heresies schismes that euer haue bene or shall be For if you goe forwarde in clipping the scripture as you begin you will leaue vs nothing in the end wherwith we may eyther defend our selues against heretikes or be able to strike at them Io. Whitgifte I neither denie the scriptures nor clip them neither can my doctrine open the way to any heresie but I speake of them in this point as all learned and sounde writers doe olde or newe if I do not disproue me not by words but by reasons and authorities Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 40. Sect. 1. Besides this there is a great difference betwixte the seueritie of the lawe and the lenitie of the Gospell betwixte the externall regiment of the Churche before Christ and the Church after Christ neither can you make the one in all poyntes correspondent to the other Likewise betwixt the declining of those Priests which was wholly from God to Gentilitie the falling of ours to Papistrie which confesseth the same articles of fayth that we doe although not sincerely It is one thing wholly to worship false Gods an other thing to worship the true God falsly and superstitiously But among all other things I woulde gladly knowe wherein king Edwards priests haue offended you It is happie you let Queene Elizabeths priests alone I maruell whose priests you are T. C. Page 27. Sect. 5. 6. Wheras you say there
to no other as the diligent reader may easily perceiue But howsoeuer the words of Cyprian sound certayne it is that neyther that in the. 20. of Numeri nor this in the. 1. of the Acts can proue any election made by the people Chap. 4. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Lin. 1. No certayne forme of electing ministers commaunded in the scriptures But I saye that in the whole scripture there is no commaundement that it should so be nor any example that maketh therein any necessary or generall rule but that it may be altered as time and occasion serueth For in suche matters not commaunded or prohibited in scripture touching ceremonies discipline and gouernmente the Churche hathe authoritie from time to time to appointe that whiche is most conuenient for the presente state as I haue before declared T. C. Page 32. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. But you saye these examples are no generall rules (*) It will fal out that you haue neyther examples of all Apostles nor of all Churches nor of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 times Examples of all the Apostles in all Churches and in all purer times vncontrolled and vnretracted either by any the rimitiue and purer Churches or by any rule of the scripture I thinke ought to stande If it were a priuate example of one or in one place alone or if it were countermaunded by any other rule of the scripture then the example were not always safe to follow But what if there be commaundement also ▪ In the (a) You are driu to a streight when you are glad to serch a mandatum out of the ceremoniall law eight of the booke of numbers the Lorde commaundeth that the Leuites whiche preached the word of God to the people in their seuerall congregations shoulde be broughte before the Lord and before the people the people should lay their handes vpon the Leuits heads whiche what other thinge is it than to declare their liking of them and by that ceremonie to consecrate them and set them apart for that vse of their ministerie And if you say that it were a disorder that all should lay on their hands I graunt you but so he speaketh bycause the approbation was by all and some in the name of the rest declared that by their laying on of hands But me thinketh I here your old answer that this perteyneth not vnto vs being a thing done vnder the law But take heede what you say for if you will admitte neyther the generall examples of the new testament nor the commaundements and examples of the old take heede that you do not or euer you be aware spoyle vs of the chiefe and principall pillers and buttresses of our religion and bring vs (b) Not so but you seeme to bring vs to plai udaisme to playne Catabaptistrie which you say you are so afraid of For to proue the baptisme of children and yong infants what stronger hold haue we than that God commaunded in the old Testament that they should be circumcised and examples thereof in the new Testament for that the Apostles baptised whole families where by al likelyhoode there were children Now we say that there is this commaundement in the old Testament of the ministers and there are examples in the newe Testament generall and throughout why shoulde it not then be necessarie in this as well as in the other Besides that in the (c) This is a silly place to proue 〈◊〉 generall commaundement 6. of the Acts the Apostles commaund that the Church shoulde seeke them out Deacons whome they might appoynt ouer the poore Touching certayne Ceremonies I haue shewed that they are necessary as namely the sacramentes And as for discipline and gouernmente I haue shewed partly and more heereafter will be shewed that they are of the substance of the Gospell if to haue excommunication be to haue discipline or if to haue pastors or Byshops and Doctors and Deacons be gouernmente of the Church Io. Whitgifte You do still petere principium and build vpon a false grounde for I denie that you haue examples either of all or of any of the Apostles or that this kind of election hath bin in all Churches in al purer times c. and albeit for the proofe of this sufficiēt is said before yet will I adde something now also All the places of scriptures that you haue The diuersitie of electiōs in the Apostles time hither to alleadged are Act. 1. Act. 6. Act. 14. and. 2. Cor. 8. whiche places neither agrée in persons that were to be chosen nor in the manner and forme of choosing For the first of the Acts is of an Apostle the. 6. of Deacons the. 14. of Byshops and the. 2. Cor. 8. of such as were ioyned with Paule for the collecting and distributing of Almes Al men do graunt that the calling and electing of an Apostle is immediatly from God and therefore dothe differ from all other elections of Pastors Deacons c. But to let thys passe I pray you consider the diuers manner and forme vsed in all these places In the firste of the Acts Péeter made an exhortation to the disciples he appoynted out of what company the newe Apostle shoulde be taken the Apostles presented two after prayers made lots were giuen foorth and the Apostle was chosen by lot and not by voice but immediatly taken and reputed with the eleuen Apostles In the. 6. of the Acts the twelue Apostles willed the whole multitude to looke out seuen men of honest report c. to be Deacons and the whole multitude did choose seuen and presented them to the Apostles and the Apostles prayed layed theyr hands on them In the. 14. of the Acts Paule and Barnabas ordeyned ministers in euery Churche with praying and fasting In the seconde Corinth eyghte At Paules request the Churches appoynte certayne to bée collectours for the poore Saynctes with hym whyche of all these examples woulde you followe will you name them to the people or shall the people name them too you Will you haue two put vp togyther and one of them chosen by lotte Or will you haue the whole people for to choose and you to lay on handes or will you only haue the Bishops to choose to bée short will you pray only at the election or will you both pray and fast or haue you any commission to make a mixture of all those examples and so to make one rule where vnto all Churches at all times must of necessitie be bound I told you before that M. Caluine saith plainly that out of that example in the first of the Acts no certaine rule can be gathered of electing and choosing of ministers and M. Beza li. confess ca. 5. is as plaine that there can be no certaine rule gathered out of the Beza 6. of the Acts or out of that in the first his words be these In the election of Matthias lottes were cast but for a peculiar cause
Churche Io. Whitgifte This reason is buylded vpon a false grounde for it is certaine that many pastors The seconde reason examined are dearely beloued of their flockes whiche neither were elected by them desired of them nor knowne vnto them before And I thinke verily that there is not one parish in England which doth the worse loue or reuerence their pastors in that respecte excepts such only as you and your adherents haue inflamed not only with the spirite of discorde but of disdayne and contempt also towards all lawes orders and persons that be not in all poyntes framed according to their imaginations But would you that a Papistical parish suche as there may be diuers in England should choose their Pastor that they might loue him Surely then would they not choose a Protestant Or do men alwayes continue in louing of those whom they haue chosen You know that experience teacheth the contrary so long only do they loue him as he pleaseth them and serueth their affections whiche bycause he neither can nor ought to doe therefore their affection of loue is soone quenched and they beginne to hate and to contemne hym and the rather bycause they did choose him For in that respecte they thinke him more bound to please them Chap. 5. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 3. And if it should happen which may come to passe that any Church should desire or choose or consente vpon by the moste parte some that is vnmeete eyther for doctrine or manners then the ministers Elders of the other Churches round about should aduertise first and afterwarde as Where find 〈◊〉 this maner and forme in the 〈◊〉 occasion shoulde serue sharpely and seuerely charge that they forbeare suche election or if it be made that they confirme it not by suffering him to exercise any ministerie And if eyther the Churches rounde about do fayle of this duetie or the Churche whiche is admonished rest not in theyr admonition then to bring it to the next Synode and if it rest not therin then the Prince or Magistrate whiche muste see that nothyng in the churches be disorderly and wickedly done ought to driue that Churche from that election to an other which is conuenient Now I will examine the reasons whiche you adde to proue that althoughe in times paste the churche choosed theyr ministers yet now it must be otherwyse Io. Whitgifte What scripture haue you to proue that if the Parishes shoulde choose an vnmeete T. C. in pretending scripture bringeth in that which hath no warrante in scripture minister then the ministers and elders of other Churches should take in hande the matter c. and if they wyll not then to bring it to the nexte Synode if that wyll not serue then that the Prince or Magistrate must and ought to driue that Churche from that election to an other more conuenient Where haue you I say either commaundement or example of any suche order in the whole scripture will you of your owne head and brayne take vpon you to prescribe a rule besides all Scripture And dare you so boldly condemne an order taken by the common consent of so great a Churche as thys of Englande is bycause it is not in all poyntes correspondent to some examples in the scripture Men may sée if they be not blynde what your meaning is You thinke peraduenture that if this were once brought to passe it should not be long or you were placed somewhere according to your desyre The like pollicie and practise hath bin vsed by others looke Zuinglius in his Ecclesi But to come to a néerer examination of this your deuise First you haue forgotten T. C. contrarie to himself yourselfe for a little before you proued by that which S. Paul sayth 1. Cor. 2. Spiritulis omnia dijudicat he that is spirituall discerneth all thyngs c. That they were spirituall Pag. 33. Sect. and therefore coulde not be without discretion of ordering them selues in choosing their pastor and nowe you say if any churche shoulde by the most part choose some vnmeet man c. Whereby you confessr that they maye be deceyued contrarie to your former wordes Secondly your order is most vnperfitte full of intollerable inconueniences for The order which T. C. prescribeth vn perfecte full of inconueniences who shall complaine of this election to other Churches And when cōplaint is made who shall call them togither when they be called togither what order shal be taken for the auoyding of confusion tumult or who shal beare their charges or in what place shal they méete or how often Likewise If the churches round about do faile in this duetie c. who shall bring it to the next Synode or who shall summon the Synode or in what place shal it be kept or at what stay shall the parishes be for a pastor vntill the matter be determined or who shal complaine to y e Prince and magistrate or what if the Prince will not driue them to a new election but allow of the olde Do you not sée of what disorder contentions tumults inconueniences this your disordered order would be the cause For how many méetings of Churches should we haue how many Synodes what parts takyng what running vp and downe what losse of time what cause of offence what quarels yea what not But amongst al other things you haue here appoynted to y e Prince or magistrate The Princes authoritie diminished and hir troubles encreased a good office that he must stand and behold al this and in the end only driue the parish to a newe election which also you say that he must doe Throughout your whole booke you take from the ciuil Magistrate his whole authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters giue vnto him no more as I haue before declared than the very Papistes doe that is potestatem facti and not potestatem iuris For he muste onely at your commaundement execute suche lawes and orders as you and your Seniors haue deuised Agayne considering the great number of Parishes in this realme the varietie of mens myndes the diuersitie of opinions in Religion and the generall inclination in the heartes of men to dissent and disagrée among them selues it can not be but that in shorte space the Prince shoulde be ouerpressed and surcharged with the composing and ordering of these confused and tumultuous elections so that she muste be constrayned to let passe the care of the gouernment of the common wealthe and be wholly troubled with hearing and redressing these matters Wherefore to conclude if you haue no better reasons for your popular elections than these I thinke it will be long before you can persuade any reasonable or wyse man to subscribe vnto it But nowe to the defense of my owne reasons The diuersitie betwixte the Apostles tymes and oures requireth a diuers kinde of gouernment and of ordeyning Ministers Chapter 6. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag.
contrary to the present state and that enelineth to libertie would vsually elect suche as would féede their humours So that the Prince neyther should haue quiet gouernment neyther could be able to preserue the peace of the Church nor yet to plant that religion that he in conscience is perswaded to be ncere As for the authoritie of isalowing their elections which you giue vnto him it is but an intollerable trouble and besides that he shall not vnderstand their doings or if he doth yet may he not depriue them of their libertie in choosing so that you make his authoritie in effect nothing Moreouer his Churches and whole kingdome shoulde be filled with Anabaptists Libertines Papists Puritanes and an hundreth sects mo or euer he were aware for who will complayne of him whome the people do phansi be he neuer so vnméete a person 3 My thirde reason is taken out of your owne booke Fol. 25. where you say that the If the people should choose the inferioure in gifts shuld be iudge of the superiour Pag. 25. lin 3. Archdeacon may not be iudge of the aptnesse and ablenesse of the Pastor bycause he is inferi re to the Pastor both in calling and gifts which if it be true then surely may not the people haue any thing to do in the election of the Pastor being in all respects much more inferioure vnto him than the Archdeacon is for to haue interest in electing is to be admitted to iudge of his meetenesse and aptnesse that is to be admitted 4 It would be a cause why many Churches shoulde be longer destitute of their Popular elections a cause of long want of pastors c Pastors than is conuenient for if an vnméete man were chosen and an appeale made to the next Pastours and from them to the next Synode prouinciall and then the parishioners that will not yéeld excommunicated and after excōmunication complayned of to the Prince and then driuen to a new election and in the same peraduēture as wayward as they were before whilest I say all this were in doing besides the maruellous schismes contentions brawlings and hatred that must of necessitie in the meane time be among them two or thrée yeares might soone be spent for all these things cannot be in due order well done in lesse time al which time the parishes must be destitute of a pastor burne with those mischiefes that I haue before recited 5 It would make the gouernment of the Church popular which is the worst kind Popular election a cause of a popular gouernment of gouernment that can be For it is true that M. Caluine saith cap. 20. Instit. Procliuis est à regno c. The fall from a kingdome into a tyrannie is very redy and the change from the gouernment of the best into the Factions of a fewe is not much harder but the fall from a popular state into a sedi ion is of all other most easie 6 The people as I haue said before through affection and want of iudgement are The people easily led by affection easily brought by ambitious persons to giue their consent to vnworthy men they are soone moued by the request of their frends and of such as they eyther feare or loue to do anything as may appeare in sundry things cōmitted vnto thē of great importāce yea sometime when by oth they are bound to deale without al affection or parcialitie 7 By this meanes they would thinke to haue their pastor bound vnto them so that A hindrance to the Pastor in doing his duty they would take it disdainefully to be reproued by him according as his duetie would require Againe the pastoure considering their good will in preferring of him woulde not so freely 〈◊〉 them nor willingly displease them 8 To conclude the people are for the most part rude and ignorant carelesse also in The people vnfit to be iudges in such cases Chrys. 2. in 〈◊〉 suche matters and more me te to be ruled than to rule For as Chrysostome de eth Populus est quiddam tumultus c. The people is a certaine thing full of tumult and sturres consisting and rashly compacted for the most part of folly oftentimes tossed with variable and contrary iudgement like to the waues of the sea c. These and a great number mo reasons may be alleadged why the people are to be s uded from the election of their Pastors and yet do I not so vtterly seclude them from such elections but that if they haue any thing to obiect agaynste him that is to be ordeyned they might be heard which order is prescribed in the booke of making ministers and that is asmuche as can be required Althoughe I doe not condemne those Churches wherin this is safely committed vnto them for I only speake of the present estate of this Churche of Englande The reason why I doe thinke the Bishops to be the fittest to haue both the allowing and ordeyning of such as are to be ministers I haue expressed in my answere to the Admonition And they are not as yet by better reasons confuted Of ministers hauing no pastorall charge of ceremonies vsed in ordeining ministers of Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes Tract 4. Of ministers admitted a place being not voyd Chap. 1. The first Diuision The Admonition The seuenth Then none admitted to the ministerie but (u) Act. 1. 25. a place was voyd afore hand to which he should be called Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 47. Sect. 1. 2. TO proue this you cite in the margent the first of the Acts wher it is declared howe Mathias was chosen in the place of Iudas to make vp the number of the. xij Apostles Surely this is but a slender reason Mathias was chosen into the place of Iudas Ergo no man must be admitted into the ministerie excepte a place before hande be voyde to the which he should be called Euery meane sophister will laugh at the childishnesse of this argument Mathias was chosen to be an Apostle and not to any certaine cure and therfore this example proueth nothing T. C. Page 42. Sect. 4. The reason is of greater force than you woulde seeme to make it for as the. xij place was to Mathias so is a certain Church vnto a Pastor or Minister as the Apostles ordeined none vnto that place before it was voyd so ought not the Bishop ordeyn any vntil there be a Churche voyde and destitute of a pastor And as the Apostles ordeined not any Apostle further than they had testimonie Act. ▪ of the word of God as it appeareth that S. Peter proceedeth by that rule to the election so ought no Bishop ordeyn any to any function which is not in the scripture appointed But there are by the word of God at this tyme no ordinarie ministers Ecclesiastical which be not local and tyed to one congregation therfore this sending abrode of ministers whiche haue no places is vnlawfull Io. Whitgifte As
whiche they are not and admit you them as often as you will the Lorde pronounceth that they shall be no ministers to him which haue no * knowledge Qzee 6. But let vs heare your reason (a) It is youre owne reason there must be reading in the church therfore there must be ministers whiche can doe nothing else Then we may reason thus to There muste be breaking of bread and distributyng of the cuppe in the Church and pouring on water therfore whosoeuer is able to breake aloafe of bread or to lift a cup of wine or to poure on water on the bodye of the chylde may be made a minister And did you neuer reade y t there were readers in the Church when there were no reading ministers But of that of reading of the scriptures prayers in the Church there wyll be a fitter place to speake afterward where it shal be shewed how vniustly you surmise these things of them ▪ Touching Homilies shal be spoken more hereafter where further occasion is giuen Io. Whitgifte Sainct Paule 1. Tim. 3. and Tit. 1. sheweth what qualities a Bishop or a Pastor ought to haue but he doth not say that if none can be founde or not a sufficient number in whome all these qualities do concurre that then the Church shal rather be destitute of ministers than haue suche for there were in his time that swarued from this rule and yet was he glad they preached Of the ministers of this Churche of England though diuerse be ignorant yet inaye they by studye and diligente readyng of the Scriptures Catechismes Homilies and other godlie and necessarie bookes so profyte in knoweledge that althoughe they bée not able publikely to preache yet maye they bée able priuately to exhorte aud otherwyse also by Readyng the Scriptures and Homilies according to the order appoynted greately profyte the people of God But what should I contende with you in this matter Thys Churche of Englande in this poynt professeth nothing that is not allowed by the generall Confession of the Churches in Heluetia from the whiche I thinke you will not dissente That Confession as I tolde you before hathe these woordes VVe condemne all vnmete ministers not indued with giftes necessarie for a shepheard Confess Heluet that should feed his flock howbeit we acknowledge that the harmlesse simplicitie of some shepheardes in the olde churche did sometimes more profite the churche than the greate exquisite and fine or delicate but a little to proude learning of some others VVherfore we reiect not nowadays the good simplicitie of certain so that they bee not altogether vnskilfull of God and his worde There is nothing in that 6. of Ozee that serueth your turne You say that I reason thus There muste bee readyng in the Churche therefore there muste bee Ministers that can doe nothyng else You knowe what is wrytten Sapi. 1. Os quod mentitur c. The mouthe that speaketh lyes slayeth the soule c. I woulde it were not so vsuall with you My argumente is this that for somuche as there can not be a sufficient number of preachers to furnish this churche of England in al places therfore there may be reading ministers that is such ministers as by reading the scriptures other bookes apointed vnto them may profit y e people instruct them for reading is necessarie in the Church c. This is my reason That which you vse is a child of your own begetting it is none of myne as the Reader can not choose but perceiue The reason that foloweth of breaking bread and distributing the cup. c. is vsed but for a iest which ought not to be in serious matters therfore I leaue it to them that are disposed to laugh when they should rather wéepe I know there were readers of olde in the Churche but they had not authoritie to administer the sacramentes as our ministers haue and of necessitie must haue and Tract 9. ca. 2. the. 2. deuision lawfully may haue also as it shall be hereafter declared Chap. 2. the fourth Diuision T. C. Page 51. Sect. 7. I dooe not vse to maintayn the places which are quoted although they be truely alleadged for the (*) Nay it is bycause you can no for you wāt no good will causes which I haue before mentioned but yet I can not but speake of this place of saint Luke for feare of the daunger that may ensue For if this be a good reason y e the place of S. Luke may not be vsed to proue that preaching is perpetually annexed to the ministerie bicause in y t same place is made mention of curing of diseases which is but a temporall thing followed the ministerie but for a time then the comandement of S. Iames * that the elders of the Church should Iames. 5. pray for those that are sick is now no commaūdement bicause putting on of hands and anoynting of them that they might recouer their health hath no place and by this meanes you wyll pull from vs as many places of the newe testament as you did before of the olde Io. Whitgifte You would no doubt maintey all their places if you could for the quotations be the substance of that booke the thing that most persuaded the Reader which credited al things there written without examination thought it must of necessitie be true being so confirmed by the scriptures And surely you could not haue greatlier condemned the authors of that Admonitiō than in suffring so many quotations of theirs to passe without defense For what wickednesse can there be greater than to abuse the Scriptures in maynteyning of sects and errours The place of Luke is not answered the words of the texte be these and he sent Luke 9. them to preache the kingdome of God and to cure the sicke c. No man liuing can cōclude of this place the one more than he can do the other your words be but your owne There be other places a number that be more generall than this to proue preaching by this was peculiar and proper to the disciples as the whole circumstances of the place declare for they are also commaunded to take nothing with them in their iorney neither staues c. To preach is perpetuall but it can not be gathered of this place that none ought to be admitted into the ministerie but such as can preach bicause it was peculiarly spoken to the Apostles as the other circumstāces do proue The commaundement of Saincte Iames is generall for he telleth what all sicke men ought to doe and the ministers lykewyse that resorte to the sicke and therfore though the anoynting wyth oyle whiche was a signe of the gift of healing bée taken away bicause the gift is ceased yet doth praying remayne still and is perpetuall and not onely proper to some ministers of the Churche but common to all Wherfore the places be not lyke the one béeing spoken peculiarly to the disciples the
haue much a do to proue that Antichrist had not inuaded the sce of Rome when your Clement Anaclete Anicete and Damasus wrote nay it is most certayne that then he had possessed it but what is that to the purpose although there was no one singular head appeared or lifted vp yet corruptiō of doctrine of the sacraments hurtful ceremonies dominion pompe of y e Cleargie new orders functions of y e ministerie which were the hāds that pulled him y e feete which brought him the shoulders that lifted and heaued hym vp into that seat were in the Church Neither while you do thus speake do you seeme to remember that this monster needed not nine monethes but almost nine hundred yeares to be framed and fashioned or euer he could with all his parts be brought to light And althoughe the louer of this Antichristian building were not set vp yet the foundations thereof being secretly and vnder the grounde laid in the Apostles time you might easily know that in those times that you spake of y e building was wonderfully aduaunced growen very high and being a very daungerous thing to ground any order or pollicie of the Churche vpon men at all which in deede ought to haue their standing vpon the doctrine and orders of the Apostles I wyll shew what great iniurie M. Doctor doth to send vs for our examples and patterns of gouernment to these times which he doth dicette vs vnto Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes the same mighte be also spoken of the Apostles times For Antichrist began in the Apostles tunes 2. Thess. 2. 1. Io. 2. enen then Paul speaking of Antichrist sayd Nam mysterium nuncagit iniquitatis for the mysterie of iniquitie doth already worke And S. Iohn sayd that there then began to be many Antichristes but doth this detract any thing from the truth taught in that time or shall we therfore refuse to take such examples of it as is conuenient for our time There is no man of learning and modestie which will without manifest proofe condemne any order especially touching the gouernment of the Churche that was vsed and allowed during the time of the primitiue Church which was the next 500. yéeres after Christ within the which time most of my authorities are conteined Neyther was there any functiō or office brought into the Church during al that time allowed by any generall Councel or credible writer which was not most meete for that time and allowable by the word of God I graunt that Antichrist was working all this time and grewe more and more for else could there neuer haue bene so many sectes and heresies from time to tyme spred in the Church which was the cause of so many singular and notable Councels so many profitable and necessary bookes written by such learned and godly Doctors as did with might and maine striue against them Out of the which Councels and fathers and best witnesses what was done in those times I haue fetched my proofes euen out of them I say that did with might and maine labour to kepe out Antichrist from the possession of the Church and therefore not to be suspected to consent to Antichrist I knowe that those sectes and heresies gaue strength vnto Antichriste and at the length were one speciall meanes of placing him in his throne euen as I am also perswaded Antichrist worketh in England by contentious persons that he worketh as effectually at this daye by your styrres and contentions wherby he hath and will more preuaile against this Church of England than by any other meanes whatsoeuer Therefore it behoueth you to take héede how you deuide the armie of Christ which should vnanimiter fight against that Antichrist As for vs we must follow the examples of those good fathers and labour accordingly to restore vnitie and to preserue it Chap. 2. the. 37. Diuision T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. vlt. Eusebius out of Egesippus writeth y e as long as the Apostles lyued y e Church remained a pure virgin for that if there were any that went about to corrupt the holy rule that was preached they Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 32. did it in the darke and as it were digging vnderneath the earth But after the death of the Apostles and that generation was paste whiche God vouchsaued to heare the diuine wisedome with their owne eares then the placing of wicked error began to come into the Church Io. Whitgifte It is euident in diuerse places of the Scripture namely in the first Epistle to the Corruptions in the churche in the Apostles time ▪ Corinthians and the Epistle to the Galath that there were many grosse and greate corruptions openly professed in the Churche by diuerse not onely in maners but also in doctrine euen in the Apostles tyme and Eusebius hymselfe declareth that there Euseb. lib. 2. Cap. 13. Idē Lib. 3. was one Simon mencioned Acts. 8. whom he calleth the author of all heresie Lib. 2. Cap. 13. Likewyse he sheweth Lib. 3. that Ebion Cerinthus and the Nicholaites all horrible heretikes were in the Apostles time Wherefore if this be a good reason then is it not safe for vs to follow no not the Apostles time Chap. 2. the. 38. Diuision T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 1. Element also in a certayne place to confirme that there was corruption of doctrine immediately Li. stromat somvvhat after the be ginning after the Apostles time alleageth the prouerb that there are fewe sonnes like their fathers Io. Whitgifte I can finde no such thing in Clement but the matter is not great whether he saye so or no. The argument is starke noughte for if this followe that we may take no example paterne or testimonie of gouernment out of that time bycause it was corrupte then by the same reason muste we not take examples of any tyme no not out of the Apostles time bicause that was also corrupte as I haue saide Your argumentes be passing strong surely I maruaile with what boldnesse you write them Chap. 2. the. 39. Diuision T. C. Page 74. Sect. 2. And Socrates sayth of the Church of Rome and Alexandria which were the most famous Li. 7. 11. Churches in the Apostles tymes that aboute the yeare 430. the Romane and Alexandrian Byshops (*) Socrates fal fied leauyng the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule or dominion wherevpon we see that it is safe for vs to goe to the Scriptures and to the Apostles tymes for to fetche our gouernment and order and that it is very daungerous to drawe from those ryuers the fountaynes wherof are troubled and corrupted especially when as the wayes whereby they runne are muddier and more fennie than is the head itselfe Io. Whitgifte You falsifie the wordes of Socrates for thus be sayth For euen till that tyme the Nouatians florished maruellously at Rome and had manye Churches and had gathered Socra lib. 7. Cap. 11. muche people But enuie tooke holde of
them when as the Byshopprike of Rome and of Alexandria nowe a good whyle was passed beyonde the Limites of Priesthoode to an outwarde Dominion He sayth not leauing the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule and dominion as you translate it But why doth Socrates burste out into thys reprehension of them euen bycause Socrates a fauourer of y e Nouatians Niceph. lib. 6. Cap. 37. lib. 9. 13. they expelled the Nouatian heretikes of whome Socrates was a fautor as it may appeare in Nicephorus wherefore he dothein that place affectionately and vniustly reproue both the Byshop of Rome and Alexandria for stoutly resisting those heretikes and expelling them from their Churches especially they nowe increasing to so great a multitude as it may séeme by Socrates wordes they dyd And althoughe the words of Socrates whiche I haue alreadie recyted iustifie this to be true yet doth his words followyng declare the same more euidently For he commendeth the Byshop of Constantinople bycause he friendly interteyned the Nouatians suffered them quietly to remayne wythin the Citie and yet it is certayne that the Byshop of Constantinople had as large authoritie as the Byshop of Alexandria wherefore Socrates in thys poynt is no more to be beléeued against those Byshops than you are against the Socrates doings agreable to our time Byshoppes in thys Churche whose authoritie you maligne vpon the lyke occasion Chap. 2. the. 40. Diuision T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 3. 4. And (a) Where i truth become although M. Doctor hath brought neither Scripture nor reason nor Councell wherein there is either name of Archbyshop or Archdeacon or proued that there may be And althoughe he shew not so much as the name of them foure hundred yeares after our saniour Christ. And although where he sheweth them they be either by counterfeit authors or without any worde (b) Would you haue better 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tha decrees for th authoritie and continuall 〈◊〉 I se of approbation of good authors yet as though he had shewed all and proued all hauing shewed nothing nor proued nothing he clappeth the hands to himself and putteth the crowne vpon his owne head saying that those that be learned maye easily vnderstande that the names Archbyshop Archdeacon Primate Patriarke be most auncient and approued of the eldest best worthiest Councels fathers writers and a little afterward that they are vnlearned and ignorant which saye otherwyse Here is (c) Vanitie a victorye blowen with a great and sounding trumpet that myghtè haue bene piped with an o en straw and if it shoulde be replyed againe that M. Doctor hath declared in this little learning little reading and lesse iudgement there mighte growe controuersies without all fruite Io. Whitgifte If I were not acquainted with this spirit it would make me muse at such euident and manifest vntruthes ioyned with so prophane iestes and tauntes If I had alleaged no moe authorities but onely the Councell of Nice it had bene sufficient to haue disproued this so bolde assertion of yours But séeyng I haue alleaged other testimonies also which euidently proue my purpose I muste néedes thinke you not to be a man that greatly careth for your owne credit but if you thinke they are few therefore accompt them for none I haue now I trust in this Chapter 25. Diuision supplyed their want and made vp the number What Scriptures I haue appeareth afterwards It is sufficient if I finde there the office of an Archbishop as I doubte not but I shall and therefore I say againe that to doubt of the antiquitie of these names and offices argueth great penurie of reading the auncient writers Chap. 2. the. 41. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 67. Sect. 4. And for as much as the originall and beginning of these names Metropolitane Archbyshop Archdeacon Primate Patriarke and such like such is their antiquitie cannot be found so farre as I haue reade it is to be supposed they haue their originall from the Apostles themselues For as I remember S. Augustine hath thys rule in hys August ▪ 118. Epist. ad Ianuar. Those things that be not expressed in the Scriptures and yet by tradition obserued of the vvhole Churche come eyther from the Apostles or from generall Councels as the obseruing of Easter the celebrating of the day of the ascention and of the comming of the holy Ghost suche like Uery vnlearned therefore and ignorant be those which so boldly affirme that these names vsed in the purest time of the church be Antichristian T. C. Page 74. Sect. 4. 5. And by and by in saying that the Archbyshops beginning is vnknowne in steade of a (a) Modestie bastard which some brought into the Church that hid themselues bycause they were ashamed of y ◠child he will make vs beleue that we haue a newe Melchisedech without father without mother whose generation is not knowen and so concludeth with the place of S. Augustine as farre as he remembreth in the. 118. Epistle to Ianuarie that the original of them is from the Apostles themselues Here (b) This is fro the matter M. Doctor seemeth to seeke after some glory of a good memory as thoughe he had net Augustine by him when he wrote thys sentence and yet he maruellously forgetteth himselfe for he vsed this place before in his 23. Page and cyteth it there precisely and absolutely where also I haue shewed howe vnaduisedly that sentence of Augustine is approued and howe that thereby a window is open to bryng in all Popery whatsoeuer other corrupt opinions That the names of Lordes and honour as they are vsed in this Realme are not meete to be giuen to the Ministers of the Gospell there hath bene spoken before Io. Whitgifte This place of Augustine is of greater force and credite with those that be learned than that it can be shifted off I haue answered whatsoeuer you saye against it in that place and shewed of what credite it is with some famous writers of our time namely with Master Zuinglius Master Caluine and Master Gualter And surely I thinke no learned man doth dissent from them Your iestes are to vsuall and vnséemely for a Diuine especially when you abuse the scripture to make sport withal I might haue sayd also of you y t you sought after some glory of a good memorie when as you vsed the like kinde of speach in alleaging of Gildas and Lumbard Pag. 68. but that I am not delighted with such kinde of eloquence Pag. 68. Sect. 4. Chap. 2. the. 42. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 65. Sect. 5. Whether that the name of Prelate of the Garter Earle Coūtie Palatine Honor high commissioner Iustice of peace and Quorum Ciuill offices giuē to ecclesiasticall persons being necessary offices in this common weale partly for the honour of the Prince and Realme but especially for good gouernment of all estates and degrees of persons be Antichristian let those consider
rest to supplie that place and office which now the Archbishop hath Chap. 3. the. 23. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 2. And if any can shew me one man in these tymes of whom we may be assured that he will pronounce The Archbishop hath 〈◊〉 to thanke you for your gentlenesse the truth of euery question which shall arise he shall make me somwhat more fauorable to the Archbishop than presently I am For although there were found one such as could not erre yet I could not consent that the matter shoulde lie only vpon his hande seeing that the Apostles which could not erre in these matters would not take that vpon them seeing that by that meanes the iudgement of the Church should be contemned and further for that the iudgement of one man in a controuersie is not so strong to pull vp errors that are rooted in mens minds as the iudgement and consent of many For that the iudgement of many is very apt either to confirme a truth or to confute falsehoode it is euident that S. Paule doth holde forth as it were a buckler agaynst the frowardnesse of certaine the authoritie of the Church Io. Whitgifte You take great paynes in fighting without an aduersarie and bicause otherwise as it should séeme you lacke matter to lengthen your booke therfore you deuise matter of your owne to striue agaynst For who hath affirmed that which you so earnestly séeke in this place to ouerthrowe It hath bene tolde twise alreadie that neyther of our Archbishops taketh vpon him to compounde controuersies in doctrine by himselfe alone neyther is it their office so to doe The Archbishops authoritie in this The authoritie of Archbishops in our Church Church is to prouide by lawfull and ordinarie meanes that vnitie be obserued in the Church that contentions and schismes be cut off that the religion and orders of the Church by the whole consent of the Church agréed vpon be mainteyned that euery Bishop in his prouince doe his duetie according to the same this is his principall charge as I take it agaynst the which you haue not as yet spoken any thing but deuise with your selfe to improue that which no man affirmeth this is but verie shifting and dallying Chap. 3. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 3. Furthermore if this distinction came vp in the Apostles tyme and by them how commeth it to passe that they neuer mention it nay how commeth it to passe that euen S. Paule in that very Epistle where these voyces are founde I holde of Paule I of Apollo I of Cephas whiche are 1. Cor. 14. sayde to be the cause of the Archbishop ordeyneth a cleane contrarie to this that M. doctor commendeth (a) A place farre se ched to improue the office of the Archbishop For when two or three Prophets haue expounded the scriptures he appoynteth that all the rest that are there should iudge whether they haue done well or no. Io. Whitgifte I contend not that the name of the Archbishop was in the Apostles tyme but you haue not yet proued that the office was not then or that there was then no superioritie among the Cleargie which you notwithstanding denie Your negatiue reason proueth nothing as you haue bene oftentymes tolde The place in the. 1. Cor. 14. is farre fetched it speaketh not of gournment and T. C. faulteth with the Admonition in vnapt allegations of scripture discipline or externall pollicie of the Church but of expounding the Scriptures And what a reason cal you this S. Paule saith 1. Cor. 14. Prophet duo aut tres loquantur caete i dijudicent Let two or three Prophets speake and let the other iudge Ergo he speaketh agaynst an Archbishop Surely if the Authours of the Admonition had not bene detected of their vnskilfull allegations of Scriptures I shoulde haue had as much a doe with you in that poynt for euen of these fewe which you haue vsed there is not almost one rightly and truely applied S. Paule in that place to the Corinthians sheweth that the hearers must iudge of the doctrine of the Prophets whether it be according to the worde of God or no as those did whiche are commended in the. 17. of the Actes but what is this to an Archbishop Chap. 3. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. And howe commeth it to passe that S. Paule being at Rome in prison and looking euery day when he shuld giue vp his last breath cōmended vnto the Church a perfect an absolute ministerie Ephe. 4. Howe oft hath this beene repeated standing of fiue partes wherein he maketh mention not one worde of an Archbishop and sayeth further that that ministerie is able to enterteyne the perfect vnitie and knitting togither of the Church Do not all these things speake or rather crie that there was not so much as a step of an Archbishop in the Apostles times Io. Whitgifte How oft haue you alledged this place to y e same purpose If I should do the like you The place Eph. 4. no per ect pater would bestow one whole side in iesting at it But I answere you as I did before In this place the Apostle as you confesse reciteth offices that be but temporall as Apostle Prophet c. he leaueth out those offices which you say are perpetuall as Deacon and Senior Therefore it is no such perfect patterne as you would haue it And if you say that these offices are conteyned vnder the names of Pastors and Doctors then I say that Bishops and Archbishops be so in like maner If you will haue the Apostle to speake of these ministeries onely which are occupied in the worde and sacraments then I say vnto you that an Archbishop is a name of Iurisdiction and gouernment Archbishop a name of iurisdiction not of a new ministerie committed to a Bishop Pastor or Minister of the worde as necessarie for the good gouernment of the Church but not as any new ministerie as you vntruly both now and also before haue surmised But to let all this passe in those offices whiche S. Paule here reciteth is the office of an Archbishop conteyned though it be not named and namely vnder the Apostles and Pastors as I haue before shewed Chap. 3. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. And if you will say that the Apostles did ordeyne Archbishops as you haue indeed sayd and do now againe when as there is not one worde in the writings of them I pray you tell vs howe we shall hold out of the Church the vnwritten verities of the Papists For my part if it be true that you say I cannot tell what to answere vnto them For our answere is to them the Apostles haue left a perfect rule of ordering the Church written and therefore we reiect their traditions if for no other cause yet bicause they are superfluous and more than need Now this degree of Archbishop being not only
to a place byshops or at the leas to consent therevnto to suppresse schismes and such like was affixed to the place and byshop of the same as to Rome Cō tantinople Alexandria c. this do all the olde canons declare as the. 6. and. 7. Canon of the councell of Nice the. 9. of the councell of Antioch and the. 5. of the generall councell of Constantinople the. 12 of the second councell of Carthage the. 21. Concilij Mileuitani the. 11. of the generall councell of Chalcedon to be short all these testimonies and examples alleadged of me before out of Cyprian c. and the continuall practise of the Church And therefore such new cautions here by you set downe be only méete for such a strange and mishapen platforme and kynd of gouernment as is by you and your faction deuised Chap. 3. the. 47. Diuision T. C. Pag. 85. Sect. 2. 3. 4. Of this order and pollicie of the Church if we will see a liuely image a d perfect patterne let vs set before ou eyes the most auncient and gospellike Church that euer was or shal be In the first of the Actes the Church being gathered togither for the election of an Apostle into the place of Iudas the traytor when as the interest of election belonged vnto all and to the Apostles especially aboue the rest out of the whole company Peter riseth vp telleth the cause of their comming togyther with what cautions and qualities they ought to choose another conceyueth the prayer whereby the help of God in that election and his direction is begged and no doubt ex cuted the resi ue of the things which perteyned vnto the whole action In the. of the Actes all the Apostles are accused of dronke nesse Peter answer d for them all wypeth away the infamie they were charged with But you will saye where are the voyces of the rest which did choose Peter vnto this (*) What is this but a meere con 〈◊〉 or ather an imagine answer o yo r ow e ▪ First you must kn w that the scripture setteth not downe euery circumstance and then surely you do Peter great iniurie that aske whether he were chosen vnto it for is it to be thought that Peter would thrust in himselfe to this office or dignitie without the consent and allowance of his fellowes and preuent his fellowes of this preheininence vndoutedly if it had not bin done arrogantly yet it must needes hau a great shew of arrogancie if he had done this without the consent of his fellowes And here you shall heare what the scholiast saith which gathereth the iudgement of greeke diumes (a) This is not poken o cho ing eter to be speaker but of lecting Matthias which pe eyned not to Peter alone 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 speaking of Peter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Behold how he doth all with their common consent And if any man hervpon will say that Peter exercised domination ouer the rest or gat any ar hapostleship beside that the whole storie of the Actes of the Apostles and his whole course of life doth refute that the same scholiast which I made mention of in the same place sayth he did nothing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 imp riously nothing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with dominion or power further I will admonish him to take heede least if he s riue so farre for the Archbishop he slide or euer he be aware into the entes of the Papists which vse these places to proue that Peter had authoritie and rule ouer the rest of the Apostles Io. Whitgifte This is a rodd to beate your selfe with for it is euident euen by these wordes of yours that your deuise is most farthest from the Apostolicall forme for Peter in all Peter chee e in Apostolicall assemblies such assemblies is the chiefe speaketh the first and moderateth the rest in whiche respect most of the olde ecclesiastical writers count him the chiefe of the Apos les neyther do the la e writers diss nt from them in that poynt and yet is there no daunger of sliding into the Papists tents who by this woulde proue the Popes supremacie whose arguments you haue vsed and I haue confuted before To preuent subtily that question which neyther yo do nor can answer that is where it is in scripture mentioned that at euery action or at any time Peter was chosen to speake before the rest or to gouerne the action ou say that first I must know that the scripture setteth not downe euery circumstance and then that I do Peter great iniurie that aske whether he were chosen to it c. To the first I answer that you ought to know how wicked and vngodly a thing it is to ground the alteration of any lawfull kinde of g uernment so long continued and in the best times of the Church practised vpon your owne fonde deuise and coniectures without any ground of scripture yea to make that Peter not cho sen in euery action to be chee e. your foundation which you cannot fynde in the whole scripture but the cleane contrary For shew me one péece of a text that doth but insinuate Peter to haue bin at any time in any action chosen to direct the action I can shew you the contrary especially in the second of the Actes where Peter sodainly answered with a notable apologie in the presence of the Apostles the accusation of dronkennesse layde agaynst him and them neyther can it be that he should expect the voyces of the rest to choose him to be the chéefe for that time in that action Whosoeuer shall well consider the first of the Actes and the. 15. and other places where mention is made of Peters speaking as he shall perceiue that this was Peters peculiar office and always apperteyning vnto him from the ascensiō of Christ to his dying day so shall he also easily vnderstand that he was not at any time chosen to that office by voyces much lesse at euery particular méeting or singular action And dare you presume vpon vaine coniectures without warrant of scripture to bild the foundation of your kinde of gouernment whyche you before sayde is a matter of faythe and saluation is not thys to open a way to vnwritten veri ies and phantasticall interpretatious if your wordes be of suche weighte wyth the Reader that bycause you speake them therefore hée will be aeue them per me ▪ licebit but thys I will assure hym of that he shall beléeue that that is neyther grounded vppon Scripture nor anye learned or aunciente authoritie To the seconde that is that I doe Peter great iniurie c. I saye that I doe him no iniurie at all when I affirme that of hym that the scripture dothe and presume not of mine owne brayne for the mainteyning of an euill cause to imagin that of him whych I haue my selfe deuised besides the word of God as you do most manifestly Peter did not thrust himselfe into any
Priests and euites And I maruell that you wil denie this especially seing that you would de vs to the ciu ll law of Moses wherof this is a portion You adde that by all these princes ouer euerye tribe and fainilie as by the prince of the whole land God did as it were c. all this maketh nothing against our 〈◊〉 xcept y u will also take away the Prince of the whole land ▪ As this order among the Iewes was obserued in al tribes so is it now in al Prouinces and Diocesse This is but slender 〈◊〉 ou bring and y t not to the purpose for the A swere speaketh of na es and you driue it to offices Indeede you almost in no place reason ad Idem which is a maniiest argumente that you are but a shiftyng cauiller Chap. 4. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Line 13. Moreouer these orders and pollicies touching the distribution of the offices of the Leuites and priests and touching the appoin ment of their gouernours were done of Dauid by the * aduise 2. Chro. 19. of the Prophets Gad and Nathan which receiued of the Lord by commaundement that whyche they deliuered vnto Dauid And if so be that it can be shewed that Archbishops and Archdeacons came into the church by any commaundement of the Lord then this allegation hath some force but now being not only not 〈◊〉 but also as I haue shewed forbydden euery man doth see that this reason hath no place but serueth to the vtter ouerthrow of the Archbyshop and Archdeacon For if Dauid beyng suche a notable personage and as it were an Angell of God durste not take vpon him to bring into the Church any orders or pollicies not onely not againste the worde of God but not without a precise word and commaundement of God who shal dare be so bold as to take vpon him the institution of the chiefe office of the Church and to alter the pollicie that God hath appointed by his seruantes the Apostles Io. Whitgifte You runne away with the matter as though all were cleare when as it is not so You affirme y t Dauid did apoint these orders pollicies touching y e distribution of the offices of the leuites Priests c. by the eduise of Gad and Nathan the prophets of God And for proof hereof you quote in the margent 2. Chron. 19. where there is not one word for your purpose or signifying any suche thing In déed in the 2. chro 29. there is affirmed the lyke thing But my L. of Sarisburie hath answered you that such negatiue reasons are very weake And if you wil denie it to be a negatiue reason from authoritie yet can you not denie but that it is as féeble an argument as almost can be For what if Dauid did appoynt these orders touching the distribution of the offices of the leuites priests c. doth it therfore follow that the church at no tyme may appointe suche offices as shall be thought méete for the gouernment of it according to the tyme places and persons where haue you learned of a singular example to make a generall rule or to frame an argumente ex solis particularibus In the. 2. Chro. 19. which you haue quoted in the margent there is a not able place Scripture alleaged against himselfe against you for there expresse mention is made that Iehosaphat set in Ierusalem of the Leuites and of the Priests c. for the iudgemente and cause of the Lorde and made Amariah the Priest chiefe ouer them neyther were they Iudges for the citie 2. Chron. 19. of Ierusalem onely but for the whole countrey And yet we reade not of any commaundement vers 8. that Iehosaphat had so to do Chap. 4. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93 Sect. 1. And where the Bishop sayth it is knowne and confessed that ther wanted many things to the persection of the Churche of the Iewes truly I doe not knowe nor can not consesse that that Churche wanted (*) This is directly contrary to your selfe any thing to the perfection of that estate which the Lord would haue them be in vntill the comming of our sauioure Christ. And if there were any thing wanting it was not for wante of good lawes and pollicies whereof the question is but for wante of due execution of them which we speake not of Io. Whitgifte Conueniet nulli c. Nowe can he agrée with anye other man that dothe not agree with him selfe For before after you haue recyted diuers thinges lefte to the T. C. contrarie to himself order of that Churche of the Iewes for the whiche they had no expresse worde You saye that you wyll offer for one that I bring that we haue lefte to the order of the Pag. 22. Sec. 2. Churche to shewe that they had twenty whyche were vndecided by the expresse word of God And heere you saye that it wanted nothing to the perfection of that estate how you wyll reconcile your selfe I knowe not or whether it be your pleasure not to respecte your owne credite so that you may séeme to discredite that whyche that notable Byshop hathe spoken but that whyche I haue alleadged of Iehosaphat 2. Chro. 19. dothe manifestly iustifye my Lord of Sarisburies saying and condemneth youres For there it is to be séene that in matters of gouernment orders were appoynted which neyther were commaunded by any expresse commaundemente of God neyther yet expressed in the worde of God But of thys matter I haue spoken before Chap. 4 the. 14. Diuision The third Reason VVhere the substance of anything is most perfite there the accidents be most perfite but Tertia ratio the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 Religion was most perfit in the primitiue Churche and yet there was then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ergo. The Ansvvere of the Byshop First this 〈◊〉 is not proued for it may vvell be doubted vvhether the Eius solutio ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 substance hath euermore most porfit accidentes And againe the substance of Religion is the same novve that it vvas then the difference if there be any standeth in accidentes and not in substance Therefore thys 〈◊〉 of substance and accidentes vvas not needefull In the primitiue Church God raised vp Apostles and Prophets and gaue them povver ex as the gifte of tongues the gift of healing the gifte of gouernment c. In place vvher of he hath novv giuen Vniuersities Scholes Byshops 〈◊〉 shops c. But you say there vvas then no Archbyshop So may you say that before king Saul there vvas no king in Israel So may you say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of late times there vvas neither Duke nor Earle in England So may you say 〈◊〉 the primitiue Church there was neither Deane nor person 〈◊〉 prebendarie And yet novv both in Ecclesiasticall and ciuill go 〈◊〉 these are thought necessarie Last of all vvhere you say there was no And by shop in the primitiue Church it is vvritten by many that S. Paul
Churche be so great and the people so many that he cannot be heard of them then there ought to be some regarde thereof S. Luke telleth what S. Peter dyd in the congregation he dothe not prescribe any general rule Euery circumstance that is tolde in the scriptures is not streightway to be made an inuiolable rule of all men to be followed The place is not material so that it be suche as the people may well heare and vnderstande that whiche is read and preached Concerning the lessons whiche are to be read the booke prescribeth no place only it willeth the minister to stande and to turne him so as he may best be heard of all suche as be present And are you offended at that neyther doth y ◠booke appoynt any certein place for the Le anie to be sayde in and therfore you do but dally and trifle The Ordinarie is the méetest man to whose discr tion those things sh uld be le t both for his learning wisdome and also that there may be one vniforme or 〈◊〉 his diocesse if any Ordinarie be carelesse in such matters if you wil complaine of him I am sure you shal be heard But your delight pleasure is to be gyrding at Bishops though the cause be forged Chap. 1. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 3. And the ende of the order in the booke is to be obserued which (*) 〈◊〉 is to kepe the prayers in the accustomed place of the church chappell or chauncell which howe maketh it to edification And thus for the generall faultes committed either in the whole lyturgie or in the most part of it both that I may haue no neede to repeate the same in the particulars and that I be not compelled alwayes to enter a new disputation so oft as M. Doctor saith very 〈◊〉 vnlike a diuine (*) These be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whence so euer this or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the Church of Christ. Io. Whitgifte What is the ende of the booke in that matter why do you not expresse it But you say it is to keepe the prayers in the accustomed places c. if this be the ende why doth the book admitte alteration do you not sée your solfe manifestly conuinced by the booke I beléeue and I am well assured that the ende is edification whatsoeuer you imagine to the contrarie And vndoubtedly you haue founde out maruellous weightie and wittie reasons agaynst the whole Lyturgie or the moste parte of it And the faults you haue noted be very many and excéeding great But haue you no conscience in calling good euill or are you not afrayde vpon so light quarels to make suche a schisme in the Church and to bring so worthy a booke into so great contempt Well you will one daye be better aduised I doubt not whiche truely I wishe for and hope for howe vncourteously so euer you haue vsed me That which M Doctor sayth so vnskilfully and vnlike a diuine he hath learned of better and more skilfull diuines than eyther of vs bothe be that is of Ambrose and of Caluine for the one sayth Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu sancto est All truthe of 〈◊〉 in ▪ ▪ Mat. vers 37. whom soeuer it is spoken is of the holy Ghost the other Purus est multarū erū vsus quarū vitiosa est origo The vse of many thinges is pure whose beginning is vicious and vnpure But M. Doctors bare affirmation if he had so vsed it is of as good credite as your bare negation But when he hath learned mē of his opinion and Iudgement for you thus to shift it of is but to bewray your vnablenesse to disproue it either by authoritie or reason You should at the least haue made true repor e of my words which you haue not done but delt therin according to your accustomed manner for my wordes be th se. Fol. 82. It maketh no matter of whome it was inuented in Pag. 82. sect what booke it is conteyned so that it be good and profitable and con onant to Gods worde and you reporte them thus whence soeuer this or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the churche of Christ. If you haue the truthe why doe you thus goe about to maynteyne it with lyes In so doing you hurt not me but your selfe and your cause ¶ An examination of the particular faultes eyther in matter or forme wherwith the booke of common prayer is charged Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 3. Nowe I come to the forme of prayer whiche is prescribed wherein the Authors of the Admonition declare that their meaning is not to disallowe of prescript seruice of prayer but of thys fo rme that we haue (*) A prop excus for they expounde them selues in the additions vnto the fyrst parte of the Admonition Io. Whitgifte In déede they haue retracted it in some poynt which argueth they writte their booke at the first with small aduise and lesse discretion It is no exposition but a retractation or recantation for the places of Scripture which they quoted and their very wordes declare that they ment the contrary and so doth their practise in secrete conuenticles But now you come to my Answere wherein you take what you list and leaue what you list as you haue hitherto done Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Admonition The fouretenth Then ministers were not so tied to any forme of prayers inuented by mā but as the spirit (g) Rom. 8. 26 1. Tim. 1. 2 moued them so they powred forth hartie supplications to the Lord. Now they are bound of necessitie to a (h) Damasus the first inuentor of this stuffe vvell furthered by Gregory the seuenth prescripte order of seruice and boke of common prayer Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 77. Sect. 3. To proue that ministers were not so tied to any forme of prayer inuented by man but that as the spirite moued them c. you quote Rom. 8. the 1. Timo. 1. In the eight to the Romaines the wordes be these Likevvise also the spirite helpeth our infirmities for vve knovve not vvhat to pray as vve ought but the spirite it self maketh request for vs vvith fighes which cannot be expressed This place speaketh nothing against any prescript forme of prayer for then it should disallow the Lordes prayer but it teacheth vs that it is the spirite of God that sturreth vs vp to pray and maketh vs earnestly poure out our supplications vnto God And thus the spirit worketh as well by prescript prayers as by prayers sodenly inuented The wordes to Timothie Epist. 1. ca. 1. vers 2. are far fetched nothing to the purpose the wordes be these Vnto Timothie my natural sonne in the fayth grace mercie and peace from God our father and from Christ Iesu our Lorde what maketh these wordes against any prescript forme of
contende with you for the signification of this woorde 〈◊〉 for it properly signifieth all affliction or trouble that perteyneth eyther to the body or to the minde And it is species mali a kinde of euill for Malum doth conteyne not onely vice and sinne but aduersitie also and affliction But to come to your reason you say there is n promise in Scripture that we should The argumēt retorted be fre rom all aduersitie and therefore we may not pray to be free from all aduersitie If this be a good argument then will I also reason thus there is no promise in Scripture that we should be frée from all sinne therfore we may not pray that we should be frée from all sinne There is no promise in Scripture that we should be frée fro persecution but the contrarie rather and therefore we may not pray agaynst persecution Likewise there is no promise that we shall be alwayes deliuered from pouertic and from diuers other particular euils To be shorte if this rule and reason be good then muste we pray for nothing except first we searche in the Scriptures whether there be any promise for the same or no. But you and all Christians ought to vnderstand that our prayers and faith annexed Our prayers and fayth are grounded vpē promises to them are grounded vpon these promises VVhatsoeuer you aske in my name that will I do And agayne If you aske any thing in my name I will do it Iohn 14. And in the. 16. chap. Verily verily I say vnto you whatsoeuer you shall aske my father in my Io n. 14. n me he will giue it you Upon these promises is both our fayth and prayers grounded Iohn 16. But for bicause in asking of extern ll thinges we be vncertayne whether they A condition nnexed to petitio s for external things be profitable for vs or no therefore we aske them with a condition which although if be not expressed yet it is alwayes vnderstoode if it be Gods will beyng certaynely perswaded that if those thinges we aske be profitable for vs we shall obteyne them for his promise sake And for as much as all good thinges come of God whether they perteyne to the bodie or to the soule and at all times to be deliuered from aduersitie is on of his singular benefites we may no doubt begge the same at his handes referring not withstanding the graunting of it to him who knoweth what is better for vs than we do our selues If you will spoyle vs of this libertie in praying you shall not onely bryng prayer into a narrowe roome but depri e vs of one of the greatest and moste singular r nsolations that a Christian man can haue in this worlde We cannot assure our selues that we shall obteyne any externall benefites by prayer at Gods handes bycause we know not whether that which we aske be profitable for vs or no and yet God forbidde that we should cease from praying euen for such thinges Dauid beyng put out of his kingdome by his Sonne Absolon was not assured that he Samuel 15. should be restored agay e and yet did he pray for it with this condition if it pleased God Christe himselfe prayed to haue the cuppe of his passion remoued from him Mattb. 26. which vndoubtedly he knew before would not be graunted vnto him Many examples there be in the Psalmes of prayers made for externall things of the obteyning whereof the Prophete could not assure himselfe Well sayth S. Augustine VVhen Augustine thou doest aske of God health of the bodie if he knowe it be profitable for thee he will giue it vnto thee if he giue it not then it is not profitable for thee to haue it Therefore we may lawfully aske any externall ben fite at Gods hande bycause he hath willed vs so to do and the same petition or prayer is a prayer of fayth bycause it hath promise in the Scripture to grounde vpon which is VVhatsoeuer you shall aske my Iobn 16. father in my name c. and such like But the successe of our prayer we must committe to him of whom we aske as Dauid did And why should this manner of speaking séeme so straunge vnto you do we not reade in the. 91. Psalme that a promise is made to those that loue God in this manner Psal 91 There shall no eui l come vnto thee neyther shall any plague come nighe vnto thy dwelling Is not this as much as though he should haue sayd thou shalt euer be defended from all aduersitie for as learned interpreters saie dictione mali omnis generis afflictiones miserias aerumn as complectitur The Psalmist in that place by this word euil doth comprehende all kinde of afflictions miseries and calamities so that you haue here the very wordes expressed that you finde faulte with in the prayer vsed on Trinitie Sunday Wherefore they may still remayne without any caution or exception And I woulde to God you were as farre from contention as those be that thinke so I might here adde and saye that we are deliuered from all aduersitie after twóo Deliuerance from aduersitie of twoo sortes sortes that is bodily and spiritually Bodily when we are not temporally and externally afflicted with them Spiritually when we are not ouercome by them or caused to decline from God or to mistruste in his mercies That we may praye to be deliuered from all aduersitie in the first signification I haue proued that we ought so to do in the latter signification there is no Christian man that doubteth Chap. 2. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 2. In the collect vpon the twelfth sunday after Trinitie Sunday and likewyse in one of those which are to be sayde after the offertorie as it is termed is done request is made that God would giue those thinges whiche we for our vnworthynesse are not aske for it carieth with it still the note of the popy she seruile feare and sauoureth not of that confidence and reuerent fam liaritie that the chyldren of God haue through Christe with theyr heauenly father for as we dare not without our sauiour Christe aske so much as a crumme of bread so there is nothyng which in his name we are not aske being nedefull for vs and if it be not nedefull why should we aske it Io. Whitgifte I praye you whether doth he prayer of the Pharisey that so extolled himselfe Humiliti 〈◊〉 prayer or of the Publicane that so humbled himselfe like you better bylike you preferre the Luc. 18. Pharisies prayer else would you neuer fynde faulte with vs for acknowledging our owne vnworthynesse which is the roote and grounde of humilitie one of the principal ornamentes of prayer We are not worthy of the least benefite that God bestoweth vpon vs And therefore dutie requireth that we should not for desert desyre any thing at his handes and humilitie sayeth that in desiring we ought to acknowledge
authoritie he woulde be loth to reiecte I am sure least he shoulde lose the opinion of his studiousnesse of the olde writers which he hunteth so diligently after in this booke wherof he maketh the authors of the Admonitiō so great contemners And it is not hard to shew the same in twentie places more as in the tenth of S. Math. and S. Luke where as there are diuers things not to be followed of the ministers now other things indifferent to be followed so are there also other things that be as well commaunded to all the ministers that nowe are as they were then eyther to the. 12. or 70. disciples Io. Whitgifte And of those circumstances wherof there is no comm̄aundement howe proue you whiche be indifferent whych be vnlawful or not conueniēt to be followed which necessary why is it not as necessarie by this example of Iohn that they shoulde be baptized in Ioroane or that they shoulde confesse their synnes before they be baptized as it is that they shoulde bée publikely baptised If you take vppon you to interprete without authoritie and grounde ofscripture it is méete that you should shew verie good and substanciall reason I demaunde the lyke touching the places alleadged out of the Acts where you reteyn what you list refuse what you list alter as you list as though you were lorde ouer the Scripture and had omnia iura tam diuina quà m humana in scrinio pectoris all lawes as wel diuine as humane in the coffer of your breast lyke to the Pope But to these places of the Actes I haue answered in their due place Your s ffes make not your cause one whit the better Of twentie places you recite not one And of diuers things some indifferent some not to be followed other some comaunded to all ministers spoken to the twelue or scuentie disciples in the. 10. of Matthew and Luke you name none speaking without ground or reason is but pratling I knowe that in one action there be diuers circumstances of diuers conditions and natures but if any of them be necessarie at all tymes to be obseiued the Necessarie cir cumstāces are commaunded same is conteyned in some commaundement in the Scriptures and therfore well sayth Zuinglius that an argument à facto ad ius is then strong when as we are able to shewe that that whiche is doone is done according to some rule or commaundement Now if you can shew me either rule or commaundement in scripture that vppon no occasion we may preache or baptise in priuate families I yelde vnto you What examples doe proue without commaundement But if you can not this doe your examples proue what was then done and what in the lyke cause may be doone nowe but they make not any generall and perpetuall rule Nowe touchyng these and suche lyke circumstances in my opinion M Zuinglius in his booke de baptismo maketh a full resolution which may satisfye any reasonable Zuinglius man His wordes be these There is here three errours about circumstances that is the elementes of the worlde The first is of the tyme for they thoughte that baptisme was not rightly administred except it were in the fyrst day for the tyme is of no greate weight so that we take diligent heed of this that none rashly or negligently differre it longer than is conuenient for by this occasion it may come to passe that the baptisme of children might be taken away An other errour is touching the circūstance of the person for they thought that baptisme could not be administred of no other than of a priest when as notwithstanding euery man may minister it euen a woman if necessitie require the thirde errour is in the circumstance of the place bicause it is not necessarie that the insant shoulde only be baptized in the Churche Chap. 4. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvero to the Admonition Pag. 92. Sect. 3. 4. Baptisme was ministred in Cornelius house Actes 10. The place is not of the substance of the sacramentes To the. 1. Cor. II. it is answered before Surely this church of Englande Baptisme an house dothe not permit the sacramentes to be ministred in priuate places except there be a congregation and then not vsually but only in certaine cases T. C. Pag. 112. Sect. 1. An other reason he addeth there that S. Peter baptized in Cornelius house But M. Doctor maketh not the best choyse of his arguments For S. Paules baptizing in the house of the Iayler had bene more fit for him for vnto his place it may be easyly answered that Cornelius hauing so greate a familie as it is lyke he had and besydes that dyuers souldiours vnderneathe him and further his frendes and his acquayntance whiche he had called had a competente number and as many as would make a congregation and as could co mmodiously be preached vnto in one place But the answere to bothe these examples and other such lyke as that S. Paule baptized in the house of Stephana is easy For there being persecutions at that tyme so that it was not safe neyther for the minister nor for the people to be seene it was meete that they shoulde doe it in houses whiche otherwyse they would haue done in open places and then those houses whiche receyue the congregation are not as I haue shewed for the time to be counted priuate houses and further in places where the gospell hath not bene receyued nor no churche gathered but one onely householde embracing the Gospel I say in suche a case and especially in the tyme of persecution where shoulde the Ministers preache or minister the Sacramentes more conueniently than in that house where those professours of the gospell be nowe to drawe this into our churches which may safely come into open places and where the churche and congregation standeth of diuers houscholdes is a token of greate want of iudgement in shuffelyng those things together whyche for the great diuersitie of their natures will not be myngled Io. Whitgifte The example of Peters baptizing in Cornelius house is sufficient to proue that then it was lawful to baptize in priuate families the example of Paul baptizyng the iaylour and his familie proueth the same But it ministreth a more readie answere to a quareller bicause Paul then being prisoner had not such libertie to make cheise of his place as Peter had But they are both verie fit examples for my purpose the bignesse of Cornelius familie or the smalnesse is not materiall to this question for we speake of the place not of the persons And whereas you say that in Cornelius house there was a competent number and as many as would make a congregation I answer that so it is with vs when baptisme is ministred in priuate families for wheresoeuer Math. 18 two or three be gathered together in the name of Christ there is a congregation To your seconde answere of the difference of tyme bicause that was in tyme of
must be of necessitie preaching and not reading before the administration of the Sacramēts If you say Iohn preached vnto such as came vnto his baptisme and read not vnto them therefore of necessitie there must be preaching and not reading I denye the argument for A general doctrine may not he concluded of a singular example it is a common rule that we may not conclude a generall doctrine of a singular or particular example and I am sure it is against all rule of Logicke T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. vlt. Whereas vnto the Admonition prouing out of the third of S. Mathew that preaching must go before the ministring of the Sacramēts you answer first that it is against al logicke to cōclude a generall ule vpon a particular example you shall vnderstand that that whiche Iohn did in that poynte he did it not as a singular person or as the sonne of Zacharie but as the minister of the gospell and therefore it apperteyneth as well to all other ministers as vnto him For as it is a good conclusion that for so much as Peter in that he is a man is borne to haue and by common course of nature hath two legges therefore Iohn Thomas and al the rest haue so euen so for so muche as Iohn by reason of his ministerie had neede first to preach then to baptise it followeth that all others that haue that ministerie committed vnto them must do the like Io. Whitgifte So did Iohn not as a priuate man but as a minister of the Gospell preach in the wildernesse baptise in Iordan must therefore all other ministers of the Gospell do the same This is no orderly kind of reasoning to saye Peter in that he is a man is borne to haue two legges Ergo euery man hathe two legges but the due forme of reasoning is this Euery man by nature hath two legges Peter is a man and therfore by nature hath two legges Therefore if the argumente had bin framed on thys sort it is the office of euery minister of the Gospell to preach before baptisme Iohn Peter and Thomas be ministers of the Gospell Ergo they ought to preach before baptisme It had bin in some good order touching the forme though in the matter ther had bin some fault But you must thinke that to preach before the administration of baptisme is not so natural to a minister of the Gospell nor so much of the substance of his office as to haue two legges is to a man For he may be a true faithfull and perfecte minister of the Gospell though he neuer preache before the administration of Baptisme But he cannot be a perfecte man touching his body that lacketh the one or bothe of his legges It is an vndoubted rule in the Scriptures that a generall doctrine may not be concluded of particular examples except the same examples be according to some generall rule or commaundement The Apostles in that they were ministers of the worde preached in all places cured diseases wrought miracles c. But it doth not therefore follow that all other ministers must do so likewise Howbeit if the case were now with other ministers When preaching before baptisme is necessary of the Gospell as it was then with Iohn that is if they had to baptise only men of yeares and discretion and such as beléeued not in Christ as Iohn had then it were most necessary that they should preach before they did baptise But séeing the case is cleane altered and there is now no occasion to minister the sacrament of baptisme to any but to yong infants that vnderstand not the word preached I cannot perceyue how that example of Iohn can be aptly applyed for he preached to such as were yet to be baptised But the Reader may note that you are content to passe ouer the vnapt allegation of the Scripture vsed by the authors of the Admonition in this place The second Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect. 1. But how if it may be proued that Iohn did baptise some without Baptising distinct from preaching preaching vnto them In that third Chap. of Matthew vers 5. and. 6. we read that all Ierusalem and al Iudea and all the region round aboute Iordan wente out to be baptised of him and that they were baptised of him in Iordan confessing their sinnes but we reade not that he did immediatly before preach vnto them T. C. Pag. 125. Lin. 5. Secondarily you saye that it doth not appeare that he preached immediatly before he baptised them with water And yet S. Mathew after that he had shewed that he preached repentaunce which the other Euangelists call the baptisme of repentance he addeth that then the people were baptised of him whiche also may appeare by the. 19. of the Acts vers 5. where S. Paule noteth this order to haue bin kept For although betweene the story of his preaching and that whiche is sayde of his baptising there is enterlaced a description of his dyet and of his apparrell yet these wordes then came vnto him c. must needes be referred vnto the time whiche followed hys preaching Io. Whitgifte I doubt not but that Iohn preached vnto them oftner than once or twice before he did baptise them for else should he haue baptised them being infidels but it may wel be gathered by those places of Sainct Mathew that he did not immediatly preache vnto them before baptisme which is that that I affirme For the authors of the Admonition séeme to condemne the administration of our sacramentes bycause the word is not always preached immediatly before they be ministred I vnderstād not how you can gather any such order out of that 19. of Actes vers 5. except you cal questioning preaching For S. Paule there doth question with them asking them whither they had receiued the holy Ghost or no and vnto what they were baptised there is no mention of any sermon preached for any thing that I can espie Moreouer it is daungerous to vnderstand that place of the Sacrament of baptisme The place 19 Act. may not be interpreted of y e sacrament of baptisme least we should séeme to admitte rebaptisation and to fal into the heresie of the Anabaptists who vse this plars for that purpose or else thinke that there is so greate difference betwixt the baptisme of Iohn and the baptisme of Christ that suche as were baptised with the baptisme of Iohn had néede againe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 baptized with the baptisme of Christ which opinion some hold being deceiued by this place Therefore that it may appeare how vnaptly you haue alleadged this place for your purpose and what suspition you haue giuen either of the Anabaptisticall rebaptisation or Papisticall difference betwixte the baptisme of Iohn and the baptisme of Christ I will recite vnto you the iudgement of some learned men concerning thys place M. Caluine vpon the same verse and sentence writeth thus But now it may be asked whether it be
Matth. 5. 6. 7. If thou bring thy gifte to the alter c. Agree with thine aduersarie quickly c. It is vsuall in all exhortations and it is a maner of speaking that giueth euery man occasion to apply that vnto him selfe whiche is spoken Neither doe I héerein pinc e at our sauiour Christes action as you surmise for he spake generally to them all and therefore vsed that forme of words which was most conuenient for that purpose Chap. 1. the. 18. Diuision Admonition The eyghte They vsed no other words but suche as Christ left we borrowe from Papistes the body of our Lorde Iesus Christ which was giuen for the. c. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 101. Sect. 2. 3. From whence soeuer these words were borrowed they were well Of the words The body of our Lorde Iesus Christ. c. borrowed for it is a godly prayer and an apte application of that sacrament and putteth the Communicants in minde of the effecte of Christes passion exhibited vnto them by that sacrament and sealed with the same if it be worthily receyued It maketh no matter from whome we receyue any thing so it be godly profitable and consonant to the scriptures But I pray you tell vs what Pope inuented these words The body of our Lorde Iesus Christe c Admonition The ninth They had no Gloria in excelsis in the ministerie of the sacrament then for it was put f Telesphorus in anno 130. to afterwarde We haue nowe Ansvvere Pag. 101. Sect. 5. Pag. 102. Sect. 1. It is the common consent of ecclesiasticall hystories that the Apostles Of Gloria in excelsis dyd celebrate the Lords supper with the Lords prayer and yet we doe not reade that Christe dyd so You also teache that the The Apostles celebrated the Lords supper with y e Lords prayer supper ought not to be ministred without a sermon and in the ministration thereof you vse diuers prayers and other orders whiche Christe vsed not Can you espie a mote if it be a mote as it is not in an other mans eye and can you not perceyue a beame to be in your owne There is nothing conteyned in Gloria in excelsis but the same is taken out of the scriptures and to be vsed of all true Christians Telesphorus whome you note in the margent to haue added to the Telesphorus a good Bishop supper of the Lorde Gloria in excelsis in the yere of the Lorde 130. was a good Bishop and the Church of Rome was as yet pure in doctrine and vnspotted with heresie Io. Whitgifte No answere to one whit of all this Chap. 1. the. 19. Diuision Admonition The tenth They tooke it with conscience we with custome Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 102. Sect. 3. 4. This is but your presumptuous and arrogant iudgement who dare take vpon you to giue this generall sentence so generally vpon this whole Churche of Englande for you make no exception but set vs ad oppositum to them If you say some take it without conscience I thinke you say truely and so did some of them as Iudas But if you say all or the moste part you go beyonde your commission and make your selues Iudges of other mens consciēces contrary to the rule of Christ. Mat. 7. Luke 6. and of Paule Rom. 2. and. 14. 1. Cor. 4. and of Iames. 4. T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. 3. When as many receyue they know not what some other without any examination eyther of thē selues or by others howe they come with what fayth in Christ with what loue towards their brethren I see not agaynst what rule of our fauiour Christ it is or what rashe iudgement to say that they come rather of custome than of conscience when neyther they speake generally of all nor singularly of any one particular person Io. Whitgifte Generally to charge the whole Churche with that which is but the faulte of some and thus boldely to enter into many mens consciences must néedes be bothe lacke of great discretion and also agaynst those rules of Scripture that I haue quoted in my Answere to the Admonition ¶ Of shutting men from the Communion and compelling to communicate Chap. 2. the first Diuision Admonition The eleuenth They shut men by reason of their g 1. Co. 5. 11. sinnes from the Lords supper we thrust them in their sinne to the Lords supper Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 102. Sect. 6. 7. The place that you alleage out of the fifte chapter of the fyrst to the Corinthians whiche is this But novve I haue vvritten vnto you that you companie not togither if any that is called a brother be a fornicatour c. dothe not particularly touche the secluding of men by reason of their sinnes from the Communion but generally prohibiteth true Christians to haue any familiaritie or frendship with any suche notorious offendour If you were not with malice blynded you mighte easily vnderstande that by the order and rules of this Church of Englande all notorious and knowne offendours euen suche as S. Paule heere The Admonito gratify the Papists speaketh of are secluded from the Lordes supper But peraduenture your meaning is that no man should be compelled to the Communion at any time wherein you greatly gratifie the Papistes and shewe your selfe a good patrone of theirs When you shewe any reason why men may not be compelled to come to the Communion then you shall be answered In the meane time you are worthy of your fee. T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. vlt. If the place of the. 5. to the Corinth do forbid that we should haue any familiaritie with notorious offenders it doth much more forbid that they should be receyued to the Communion Io. Whitgifte I will Answere you as M. Caluine answered the Anabaptists obiecting the same Calu aduersus Anabapt place of S. Paule 1. Cor. 5. in effect to the same ende and purpose that the Authors of the Admonition doe vsing the like collection that you doe in this place But wheras sayth he Paule doth forbid to eate with those that lyue dissolutely that perteyneth to priuate conuersation not to the publike Communion but some will saye if it be not lawfull for a Christian man to keepe company with him that is wicked for corporall meate much lesse may he receyue with them the Lords bread I answere that it is in our power whether we will be familiarly conuersant with the wicked or no and therefore euery one ought to flye from them But it is not so in our power to receyue the Communion or not to receyue it therefore the reason is not all one we must therfore note that if the Churche do tollerate and suffer an vnworthy man he shall do well that knowing him to be suche a one doth abstayne from his companie as muche as he can so that his dooing make no schisme or separation in the Churche This I speake onely touching the true vnderstanding of that place
that is to compell vsed agaynst suche as refuse to communicate I thinke in déede the especiall quarell is their owne bicause they haue separated them selues from the Churche and woulde not be constrayned to communicate with vs but they make their doctrine generall therby to cloke their intent Wherefore whether they do it to gratifie the Papists or no it may be doubted but certayne it is that the Papists could not haue had better Proctours Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 133 Lin. 37. As for the fee that M. Doctor saythe wee be worthy of for shewing our selues as he fayth so good patrons of the Pap stes he hathe giuen vs well to vnderstande what it shoulde be if he were the paymaster but as we serue the Lorde in this worke so we looke for rewarde at his hande not fearing but that the Lorde will in the ende giue suche blessing vnto our labours as we shall not neede greatly to eare at the handes of those whiche God hath placed in authoritie the rewarde which you do so often call for Io. Whitgifte Surely that ée you should looke for at my hands that it behoueth a Christiā man so giue vnto suche as continue in disturbing the Churche and yet peraduenture shoulde it not be by the twentie parte so sharpe as the fee that you woulde bestowe vpon me if it were in your power Howbeit I commit my selfe to him by whome hitherto I haue béene protected notwithstanding all the deuises and practises of slaunderous tongues and hatefull countenances and I nothing doubte but that in the ende God will turne all to his glory and profite of the Churche ¶ Of playne and simple ministring and receyuing of the Communion Chap. 3. Admonition The twelfth They ministred the Sacraments playnely we pompeously with singing pyping surplesse and cope wearing The thirtenth They simply as they h Co. 11 23 receyued it from the Lorde We sinfully mixed with mans inuentions and deuises Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 103. Sect. 2. 3. Pag. 104. Sect. 1. This is a very slender reason to proue that the sacrament of the Supper is not sincerely ministred bicause there is singing pyping surplesse and Cope when you shewe your reasons agaynst that pompe whiche is nowe vsed in the celebration of that Sacrament you shall heare what I haue to saye in defense of the same I thinke that there is nothing vsed in the administration thereof that dothe in any respecte contaminate it or make it impure As for pyping it is not prescribed to be vsed at the Communion by any rule that I knowe Synging I am sure you doe not disallowe beeing vsed Singing vsed in al reformed Churches in all reformed Churches and an arte allowed in Scriptures and vsed in praysing of God by Dauid Of Surplesse and Cope I haue spoken before wyl speake more hereafter as occasionis ministred There is no suche inuentions or deuises of man mixed wyth the Supper of the Lorde as can make it sinfull beeing all perteyning to edifying and to good decent order and nothing there appoynted to be done contrarie or not agreable to the Scriptures Caluine Caluine him selfe sayth in his Institutions Lib. 4. Cap. 10. That those thynges vvhiche be partes of decencie commended vnto vs by the Apostle though Decent orders be Gods traditions they be prescribed by man yet are they Gods traditions and not mans as kneeling at solemne prayer and suche like The Supper it selfe in all poynts of any moment is ministred nowe in this Churche of Englande euen as Christ deliuered it as the Apostles vsed and as the Primitiue Churche continued the same These be all the reasons you vse to proue that the Sacrament of the Supper is not rightly and sincerely ministred wherof some be impious some ridiculous and all of them vnworthy any confutation T. C. Pag. 133. Sect. 1. 2. Unto that whyche is conteyned in the two next sections in the. 103. and a peece of the. 104. pages I haue answered before partly particularly partly when I noted the general faults of the Seruice booke especially seeing that M. Doctor wyll not defende the pyping and Organes nor no other synging than is vsed in the re rmed Churches which is in the synging of two Psalmes one in the beginning and an other in the ending in a playne tune easy both to be song of those whych haue no arte in singing and vnderstanded of those whych bicause they can not reade can not sing with the rest of the Churche For that whiche is in the. 105. page and concerneth the surplesse I haue answered before Io. Whitgifte To the moste of it you haue not answered any where and the substance of it you The sacraments purely ministred haue left vntouched that is whether these things be of that weight or no that in any respect they can contaminate the sacramentes or make them impure as they b nowe vsed Neyther haue you proued or can proue that the sacraments are not ministred in this Church of Englande in all poyntes of any moment euen as Christ deliuered them the Apostles vsed them the primitiue Oecolamp in Epist. apud Gastium li. 2. de erro Catabaptist Churche continued them Touching singing piping as you cal it surplesse cope wearing I answere with Oecolampadius These things be free vnto Christians whiche holy or godly Bishops may eyther adde if it seeme vnto them conuenient and profitable for the people or take away if there be any abuse as the time requireth euen as they may also doe in other ceremonies VVe haue made no contention for externall things those things that be indifferent are not repugnant to the worde of God I haue hearde no reasons as yet to improue the manner of singing vsed in this The originall cause of the pryde of the Romishe churche Churche of England neyther do I say that I allow no other singing than is vsed in other reformed Churches For I woulde not haue any Churche to arrogate that perfection vnto it selfe that it should thinke all other Churches to be bounde vnto it it was the originall cause of the pryde of the Churche of Rome I haue onely sayde that other reformed Churches allow singing which is true ¶ Of matters touching Baptisme Tract 16. Of Interrogatories ministred to infants Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition And as for baptisme it was inough with them if they i Act. 8. 35. 36. 37. Act. 10. 47. had water and the partie to be baptised fayth and the Minister to preach the worde and minister the Sacramentes Nowe we must haue Surplesses deuised by Pope Adrian Interrogatories ministred to the Intant Godfathers and Godmothers brought in by Higinus holy fontes inuented by Pope Pius crossing and such like peeces of Poperie which the Church of God in the Apostles tyme neuer knew and therefore not to be vsed nay which we are sure of were and are mans deuises brought in long after the
first priuately admonished this maketh nothing for your purpose it taketh away authoritie of iudging and condemning from priuate men and not from publike magistrates In the. 12. of the first to the Corinth verse 28. these be the words of the Apostle And God hath ordeyned some in the Churche as first Apostles secondly Prophetes thirdly teachers then them that do miracles after that the gifte of healing helpers gouernours diuersitie of tounges How can you gather of these wordes that all this commeth to passe that is hatred fauour corruption by money and affection in iudgement bycause the regiment lefte of Christe to his Churche is committed to one mans hands In these wordes the Apostle declareth that Christ hath lefte in his Churche gouernours and thereof you may well conclude that in the Churche there muste be some whiche shoulde haue authoritie ouer the reste The Apostle dothe not here An vnperfect reason say that in euery particular congregation Christ hath left many gouernours no more than he sayeth that he hath left many pastors for one flocke but in his Churche he hath ordeyned gouernours The gouernement of the whole vniuersall Churche is not by Christe committed to one Bishop or one Prince nor the gouernment of the whole worlde to one Emperour for no one man can discharge such a cure and therefore he hath appoynted in his Churche diuers Bishops diuers Princes many gouernours But one Prince may suffise to gouerne one kingdome and one Archbishop one Prouince as chiefe and principall ouer the reste one Byshop one Diocesse one Pastor one parishe neyther doth the Apostle speake any thing to the contrarie In the. 12. to the Romaines it is thus written he that ruleth vvith diligence What maketh this for your purpose or how cā you wring it to your assertion In the. 5. of the. 1. to Timothie The Elders that rule vvell are vvorthy of double honour c. Paule sheweth in these wordes that suche are worthy theyr stipende reward which rule well in the Church and do their duties diligently But what is that to your assertion The places alledged out of the fiftenth of the Actes be of the like sorte Wheresoeuer mention is made in the Scriptures of gouernours Lacke of discretion in al ging of scriptures or Elders that you alledge to improue the gouernment of one man wherein you shewe a great wante of iudgement And yet there is no one person in this Realme the Prince only excepted which hath such absolute iurisdiction as you would make your disciples beleue But your meaning is that Christe lefte the whole gouernment of his Churche to the Pastor and to some foure of fiue of the Parish besides which you are not able to proue your places of scripture alleged signifie no such matter In those places y t be gouerned by many do you not see what cōtention there is what enimitie what factiōs what partes taking what cōfusion what little good order obserued what carelesnesse dissolutnesse in al māner of behauiour I could make this manifest by examples if I were disposed In the. 18. of Exodus which place you quote to proue that Seniors ought to be zelous and godly Iethro giueth Moses counsell not to weary himselfe in hearing all matters that be brought vnto him but rather to commit the hearing and determining of smaller matters to others And therefore verse 21. he sayeth Prouide thou among all the people men of courage fearing God men dealyng truly hauing couetousnesse and appoynt suche ouer them to be rulers ouer thousands rulers ouer hundredes rulers ouer fifties and rulers ouer tennes c. This maketh nothing for Seniors Moses here was chiefe these were but his vnder officers placed by himselfe This place serueth well for the gouernment of one Prince ouer one whole realme and giueth him good counsell what vnder officers he ought to choose To the same effect and purpose is that spoken and written whiche you cite out of the first of Deuteron verse 13. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. The rest comprehended in these sections is answered before beyng matter whiche perteyned vnto the Archbishop Io. Whitgifte Uery litle of it perteyneth to the Archbishop The Authors of y ◠Admonitiō bring in all these places of Scripture to proue the gouernment of your Seniors but how aptly it app areth in that you cannot salue their follies in so vnapt allegatiōs There be other thinges that require answere but you haue shifted of all in saying that they perteyne to the Archbishop be answered before when as neyther of both is true for they perteyne to your Seniors and be no where as yet answered But I leaue it to the Reader here to consider why you haue not set downe my booke in your Replie ¶ The inconuenience of the Seigniorie in the tyme of Christian Princes especially in the state of this Church Chap. 3. Nowe that you haue spoken all that you can for your Seniors giue me leaue a litle to declare the absurdities and inconueniences that must of necessitie follow that kinde of gouernment 1. Difference disagrement in orders and religion First euery seuerall parish must be as it were a seuerall Church gouerned by seuerall orders ceremonies yea and peraduenture professe seueral points of doctrine for there muste be equalitie among ministers and one of them muste not haue to do with anothers parishe The whole gouernment of the Parish must remayne in the minister and certayne Seniors who shall haue authoritie to correct vice abolishe ceremonies appoynt orders abregate customes make Ecclesiasticall lawes as they shall thinke good for that congregation So that whatsoeuer the Pastor and his Seniors deuise and agrée vpon be it good or euill common or singular it must be obeyed vnder the payne of Excommunication Secōdly that Seigniorie being choosen by the Pastor the parish if the Prince or 2. Confusion of 〈◊〉 any other noble man be of that congregation choosen to that office by the most parte he must not refuse it but attende vpō it be at M. Pastors calling who is the chiefe of the Seigniorie in that respect aboue Earle Duke Ring or whosoeuer moreouer he must be contented to be lincked ioyned in commission with the basest sort of the people if it please the parish to appoynt to him suche Colleags as it is like they will Yea and if they be in matters of discipline and gouernment by such simple Seniors ouerruled as it is most like they shall they must therewith be contented Thirdly it burdeneth the parish more than they are able to beare for wheras now 3. Burden and charge of parishes they repine at the finding of their Pastors then they muste be enforced besides the Pastor to nourish Deacons and sixe or seuen Seniors with widowes also Fourthly it bringeth in a new Popedome tyrānie into the Church for it giueth 4. Tyranny to the Pastor his fellow Seniors authoritie to exercise discipline by
in whiche onely are conteyned (y) 2. Ti. 3. 6. 17. all fulnesse and sufficiencie to decide controuersies 2. Pet. 1. 20 Rom. 1. 16. 1. Cor. 1. 18 c. must sound in his church for the very name Apocrypha testifieth that they ought rather to be kept close than to be vttered Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 171. Sect. 1. 2. Your second reason in fewe wordes is this In the booke of common Homilies prayer it is appointed that after the Creede if there be no sermon an Homilie must follow eyther already set out or hereafter to be set out but you knowe not what will hereafter be set out therefore you will not subscribe You haue no cause to suspect any thing touching religion set out by publike authoritie for so is the booke or hereafter to be set out by common authoritie Hitherto you are not able to conuince any Homilie set out by common authoritie of any errour and therfore you ought not Our homilies cannot be accused of any errour to be suspicious of any that is to come If any Homilie shall hereafter be set out wherein you mislike any thing you neede not to reade it the booke doth not appoynt you this or that Homily to reade but some one which you like best But what neede you to be scrupulous in this matter if you be disposed to preache then neede you reade no Homilie at all therefore this is no reason T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 2. I answere that although it be meete that as we hope that the Homilies which are made already be godly so those that shall be made hereafter shal be likewise yet considering the mutabilitie of men and that of tentimes to the worse it is not meere nay it is merely vnlawfull to subscribe to a blancke seyng that we cannot witnesse or allow of those thinges which we haue not seene nor hearde Io. Whitgifte If you be disposed to quarrell it is an easie matter to picke out occasions but your suspicion is without cause and I thinke a modest protestation in that poynt would not be refused Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 171. Sect. 3. 4. This assertion that in the holy Scriptures is conteyned all fulnesse to decide controuersies if you meane controuersies in matters of fayth and in matters touching saluation is very true but you haue vsed litle discretion in quoting some places to proue the same I finde no faulte with you for cyting the sixte verse of the. 2. Tim. 3. for the. 16. verse that is but a small ouersight and it may be in the Printer but howe do you conclude this assertion of the wordes of Peter 2. Epist. cap. 1. verse 20. which be these so that ye firste knovv that no prophecie of the Scripture is of any priuate motion for this place only proueth that the Scriptures be not of men but of the holy ghost it speaketh nothing of the sufficiencie of the Scripture Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 172. Sect. 1. 2. 3. That place also 1. Cor. 1. is not fitly applied to this purpose there is Scripture sufficient directly to proue the sufficiencie of scripture so that you should not haue needed to giue the aduersarie occasion to carpe at the vnaptnesse of these places for that purpose Homilies conteyning doctrine agreable to the Scriptures be of the same nature that sermons be Wherefore if it be not lawfull in the Churche to reade Homilies neyther is it lawfull to preach Sermons The reason is all one neither is there any difference but that Homelies be read in the booke Sermons sayde without the booke Homilies are pithie learned and sounde sermons oftentimes be Some Homilies better than some sermons wordes without matter vnlearned erroneous T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. vlt. The place vnto the Corinthes is the same vnto the Romaines and M. Doctor approuing one hath no cause to finde faulte with the other For the hemilies first of all I haue shewed how absurde a saying and how vnlike a diuine it is to matche reading of homilies with preaching of sermons For if the reading of the holy Scriptures is nothing so fruitefull as the preaching of them muche lesse is the reading of homilies to be for their fruite matched with preaching of sermons Io. Whitgifte Neither of both the places doth proue directly that for the which the Authors of the Admonition do vse them and there be other places more manifest which they haue omitted I haue answered in that place to all your Replie concerning this point I do not match reading of Homilies with Sermons simply or with all sermons but with Reading of Scriptures a meanes to iudge of sermons some and to some sermons I do preferre the Reading of Homilies for the causes conteyned in mine Answere to the Admonition Both the reading and the preaching of the Scriptures is necessarie and the one in diuerse respectes as necessarie and in some respectes more necessarie than the other For the Scripture is the rule to discerne and iudge sermons and preachers by Christe willeth to take heede of false Math. 7. Prophetes Math. 7. Which can not be done without the diligent reading of the Scriptures those of Thessalonica are to be commended for trying by the Scriptures the Act. 17. doctrine preached vnto them Act. 17. S. Iohn willeth that the spirites be tried whether Iohn epist. 4. Cal. 1. they be of God or no which must be by the Scriptures S. Paule Gal. 1. willeth them to holde him accursed that shall preach any other Gospell vnto them whiche they can not do without that knowledge whiche God doth giue vnto them by reading of the Scriptures Infinite places there be that tendeth to this ende but I haue spoken of this matter before This is my opinion that both reading and preaching be most necessarie but in some respectes the one to be preferred before the other Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. vlt. There remayneth that I shew briefly that neyther the Homilies nor the Apocrypha are at all to be redde in the Churche Wherein first it is good to consider the order which the Lorde kept with his people in tymes past when he commaunded that no vessell nor no instrument either besome or flesh hooke or panne c. should come into the temple â–ª but those onely which were sanctified and set aparte for that vse And in Leuiticus he will haue no other trumpets blowne to call the Numb 10. people togither but those onely which were set aparte for that purpose What should the meaning of this lawe be The matter of other common vessels and trumpets was the same oftentimes which theirs was the same forme also and the other beesomes and hookes and trumpets hable to serne for the vses ofsweeping and sounding c. as well as those of the temple and as those whiche were set aparte wherfore mought not
T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 2. As for Elias killing the false Prophetes and our Sauiour Christs whippyng out of the temple it is straunge that M. Doctor will alledge them as thinges to be followed when he may as well teach that we may call for fire from heauen as Elias did and beyng demaunded answere nothyng as our Sauiour did as to followe these actions whiche are moste singular and extraordinarie And if these one or two examples be enough to breake the order that God hath sette by this a man may proue that the mynisters may be fishers and tente makers bycause Peter and Paule beyng ministers did fishe and make tents And truely these are not so extraordinary and from the generall rule as the other be And it was permitted in a Councell that rather than a minister should haue two benefices he might labour with his handes to supply his wante Tom. 〈◊〉 Nic 〈◊〉 1 withall Io. Whitgifte Yet by these examples especially by the examples of Christ it may appeare that Ecclesiasticall persons haue vsed corporall punishments which you call ciuill I knowe examples make no rule and therfore al your argumentes out of the scriptures alleadged before to proue that the election of ministers ought to be popular receyue the same answere that you giue to me in this place and yet examples if they be not agaynst any commaundement or good order established declare what hath bene and what vppon the lyke occasions may be done but not what of necessitie ought to be doone If you can proue any order of God sette downe that an Ecclesiasticall person may by no meanes exercise any ciuill offices I yelde vnto you if you can not do it then do I alledge no examples tending to the breakyng of any order that God hath set I knowe not why the ministers of the Gospell may not do as Peter Paule did vpon the lyke occasion And therfore your alledging of y e corrupt Councel of Nice which not withstanding you haue not 〈◊〉 alleaged is not necess ie I haue spoken of that Canon before and therfore will not trouble the Reader with it nowe being from this purpose Chap. 3. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 2. 3. When Sainct Paule willed Tim. that he shoulde not receyue an accusation agaynst an elder vnder two or three witnesses he did committe nothing lesse than any ciuill office vnto him And M. Doctor himselfe hathe alleadged it before as a thing incident to the office of a Byshop and therefore he doth forget himselfe maruellously now that maketh this a ciuill office And doth M. Doctor thinke that S. Paule made magistrates Or is he of that iudgemente that the Church in the time of persecution may make ciuill officers But it is true that he that is once ouer the shoes sticketh not to runne ouer his bootes Io. Whitgifte I alleadged it before to proue the superioritie of Bishops ouer other ministers The iur tion of Timothie in some respect ciuill Now I do alledge it to proue that the same byshops may exercise that iurisdiction which you call ciuill for in that the iudgement of such causes were committed vnto him it argueth his superioritie in that there is named accusers and witnesses it declareth a kind of eiuil iurisdiction to the which those words do perteine So that Timothie being an ecclesiastical person had prescribed vnto him that kind of proceeding to iudgement that may be called ciuill Chap. 3. the. 12. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Page 218. Sect. 1. It pleaseth you to say that it is against Gods worde for Byshops to haue prisons but your margent is very barren of proofes for you haue not quoted one place of scripture to proue it onely you say that Popish Eugenius did first bring them in whiche is a very slender argument to proue them to be against the word of God Did not Peter punish Ananias and Saphira very streightly for their dissimulation Surely farre more greeuously than if he had put them in prison and yet their offence was not against any ordinarie law made in the Churche or common weale But where reade you that Eugenius did first inuent them T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. vlt. And last of all to proue that byshops may haue prisons he citeth Peter which punished Ananias and Saphira with death M. Doctor muste vnderstande that thys was 〈◊〉 power and was done by vertue of that function whyche Sayncte Paule calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Cor. 12. whiche is one of those functions that the Lorde placeth in hys Churche for a tyme. But is thys a good argumente Bycause Saincte Peter punished with the worde therfore the minister may punishe with the sword And bicause Sainct Peter didde so once therfore the Bishop may doe so alwaye And bycause Sainct Peter did that whiche appertayneth to no ciuill magistrate ▪ and whyche no ciuill magistrate by any meanes maye or can doe therfore the minister maye doe that whyche apperteyneth vnto the Ciuill magistrate For if there hadde bin a ciuill magistrate the same coulde not haue punished this faulte of dissimulation whiche was not knowne nor declared it selfe by anye outewarde action So that if this example proue any thing it proueth that the minister may doe that no man may doe but the Lorde onely whyche is to punishe faultes that are hidde and vnknowne If this bee ignorance it is very grosse and if it be against knowledge it is more daungerous I haue determined with my selfe to leaue vnto M. Doctor his outcryes and declamations and if I shoulde haue vsed them as often as he giueth occasion there woulde be no ende of writing The Lorde giue M. Doctor eyther better knowledge or better conscience Io. Whitgifte I vse this example of Peter to shewe that is not agaynst Gods worde for the ministers Ministers may vse temporall punishment of the Gospell to punishe any by imprisonmente For Peter béeing a minister of the Gospell dyd punyshe with death whiche is muche more than to imprison and as Peter did this lawfully by an extraordinarie power so maye the ministers of the woorde punishe by imprisonmente whiche is a farre lesse kynde of punishment beyng lawfully therevnto authorised by the ciuill Magistrate accordyng to the orders of the common wealth and state of the Churche Therfore my reason is this Peter punished with temporall punishement being a minister of the worde and he dyd nothing repugnant to his vocation therfore it is not repugnant to the office of a minister of the worde to punishe with temporall punishment Agayne Peter punished with death therfore the minister maye punishe with imprisonment I speake de facto of the deede done not de modo of the maner of doing is And I doubte not but that séeing it was lawfull for Peter to kill by an especiall and extraordinarie power so it may be lawfull for the minister of the word to imprison by an vsuall and ordinarie power And so are all your
tayle for the tayle of the beast as learned Tayle of Antichrist what it is mē say be false Prophets Hypocrites such as stirre vp Schismes factions among true Christians and by pretence of zeale by cloaked and coloured meanes seeke to draw into the church Antichrist backward as Cacus did the oxen into his denne Io. Whitgifte To these things y e Replier hath giuen his consent as it should séeme by his silence ¶ Articles collected out of the former Admonition and vntruly sayd of the fautors of that Admonition to be falsified To the end of the second Admonition there is ioyned A reprofe of certaine Articles collected as it is thought by the Bishops for so they say out of a litle booke entituled An Admonition to the Parliament c. But as I thinke it may rather be termed a recantation or if you will a reformatiō or mitigatiō of certen articles in that first admonition rashly setdowne without learning or discretion printed 1. Fol. 3. lib. 1. pag. 2. First they hold affirme that we in England are not yet Scarce the face of a Church come to the outward face of a church agreable to Gods worde Here you finde fault that this worde scarce is left out Indeede this word scarce was written in the margent of diuers copies of the first Admonition whether it were so in all or no I know not no more do I whether any such collectiō as you pretend was made But what neede you so muche sticke in wordes when the thing is manifest for in effect they denie as much as that proposition importeth they wholy condēne the mynisterie the ceremonies the gouernment of this church They say the sacraments be full of corruptions in theyr second Admonition Fol 42. they say that the sacraments are wickedly māgled prophaned they vtterly condēne our order māner of common prayer yea in effect our doctrine also for in their secōd Admonitiō Fol. 7 they say that although some truth be taught by some preachers yet no preacher may without daūger of the lawes vtter all truth comprised in the booke of God What can be spoken more slenderly of the doctrine preached in this church A mā may truly speake as much of the Romishe churche for some truthe is taught by some Papists yea some truth is taught by some Iewe Turke When therfore you say that in this church neither the worde is truly preached nor the sacramēts sincerely ministred nor yet Ecclesiasticall discipline which thre in the first Admonition Fol. 3. is sayde to be the outwarde markes whereby a true Christian church is knowne and also condemne our mynisterie as Popish and vnlawfull with the whole gouernment of Vix ▪ signifieth somtime non our Church as you do in playne termes may it not be truely sayde that you affirme vs in England as yet not to be come to the outward face of a church agreable to Gods worde Furthermore what doth this word scarce helpe the matter doth it not importe as much it is a rule in Philosophie Quod vix fit non fit that vvhich is scarce done is not done T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 3. 4. 5. As for Answere to the Articles collected out of the Admonition it is made in the Replie vnto M. Doctors booke where I haue shewed how the Admonition is misconstrued and taken otherwise than eytherit meameth or speaketh wherevnto I will referre the Reader And albeit I haue shewed how vntrue it is that the Admonition affirmeth that there is no church in England yet I can not passe by the secrete Philosophie whereby M. Doctor woulde proue that the Authors of the Admonition affirme it For sayth he by y e rule of Philosophie Quod vix fit non fit that which is scarse done is not done I say this is secrete for it was neuer taught neyther in Academia nor in stoa nor Lyceo I haue redde Quod fere fit non fit that which is almost done is not done But I neuer remember any such rule as M. Doctor speaketh of And besides that in our tongue those things which are sayd to be scarce are notwithstanding oftentimes supposed to be As when a man sayth that there is scarce a man aliue c. the scripture also vseth that phrase of speach of things which are as when it sayth the iust man shall scarce be saued it doth not meane that iust men shall not be saued The rest of that I haue answered Io. Whitgifte I proue by their owne manifest woordes that they in déede affirme that we in England are not yet come to the outwarde face of a Church agreable to Gods worde all whiche proofes you omit and let passe cauilling onely at this woorde scarce which is a manifest What y ◠word vix importeth argument of a wrangler And yet is not this manner of speaking Quod vix sit non sit so straunge Philosophie as you would gladly haue it for this woorde vix eyther signifieth with violence great difficultie to do a thing or else it is referred to the time or else it signifieth non as in Ouide vix Priamus tanti that is non tanti Priamus as Donatus doth expoūd it I thinke you will not haue it to be taken in the first significatiō by the Authors of y e Admonitiō for then there is no sense in their wordes if it be taken in either of the latter significations as it must of necessitie be then the Philosophie is not secrete ▪ but open and knowne to euery yong Grammarian In our English phrase it is commonly taken for non as when we say a thing is Vix in english commonly taken for non scarce done we signifie that is not yet done Likewise when a man sayth that he is scarce well he meaneth that he is not well He hath scarce made an end of his sermon ▪ y t is he hath not made an end of his sermon It is scarce ix of y e clocke that is it is not yet ix of the clocke Euen so we are scarce come to the outward forme of a church rightly reformed c. that is we are not yet come c. Euery child y t cā speake knoweth this to be so When the scripture saith that a iust man shall scarce be saued this woorde vix is taken in y e first significatiō that is with great difficultie in this signification it is oftētimes taken in the scripture but so can it not be in their manner of speach Ansvvere to certayne Articles c. 2. They will haue the mynisters to be called allowed and placed by the people You say that this Article is falsified yet their wordes in that place of their Admonition be these Then election was made by the cōmon consent of the whole Churche And a litle after Then no mynister was placed in any congregation without the consent of the people Wherfore the collection is very true and they belike ashamed of their
is nor the Iuniper cotesare not comparable with it Io. Whitgifte Nay they can not meane it of me nor of suche as I am for I haue not to doe with the politike affayres of this lande neyther am I eyther of Court or Parliament But I thinke their words following doe clearely seclude me and all other of my degrée for thus they adde immediatly But shutte God out of your assemblies and 〈◊〉 as hitherto in this last Parliament you haue done nothing therin as you ought no though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 beene solicited but haue suffered them that were your solicitours to be molested You shall 〈◊〉 both that you ought to haue sought the kingdome of God first and also you shall finde if 〈◊〉 consider not your owne wayes in your hearts howe you thinke it a tyme to buylde seeled houses to deuise lawes for the preseruation and prosperitie of your common wealth and neglect Gods Churche leaue that wast c. These wordes of theirs shutteth me out from the number of their Macheuils Well it is a poynte that woulde be considered That whiche I speake in the. 88. page I am ready to giue accounte of when I am thervnto by due authoritie called Neyther am I afrayde in time and place to speake that whiche I thinke In the rest of this Replie you doe but vtter your impatiencie and vntemperatenesse of your spéeche and therfore I will dismisse you as Dauid dyd Shemei A vievve of the seconde Admonition The seconde parte consisteth onely of rayling wordes and slaunderous Slaunder 〈◊〉 the Churche of Englande accusations first agaynst this whole Churche of Englande for they say that we are scarse come to the outwarde face of a Churche rightly reformed and that although some truthe be taught by some preachers yet no Preacher maye without great daunger of the lawes vtter all truthe comprised in the worde of God c. And a little after they adde and saye that the truthe in a maner doth but peepe out behinde the screene which speeches as they be very vntrue for who knoweth not that the Gospell is wholly publikely and freely preached in this Church of Englande so they be slaunderous neyther can the Papists speake any worse In this parte also to proue that this is no true saying in matters of policie and gouernment it is not repugnant to the word of God and therfore it may be vsed is alleaged this saying of Christ. Mat. 12. He that is not vvith me is agaynst me But they haue forgotten the wordes of Christ Mat. 9. Qui non est aduersus nos pro nobis est He that is not agaynst vs is vvith vs. Wherevpon we maye muche better conclude that that which is not repugnant to the Scripture is consonant to the Scripture than they can doe the contrarie of the former place Notwithstanding in both these places as I think Christ speaketh rather of men and persons than of things them selues In the same parte their speeche of the Queenes supremacie is very Supremacie of the Quene secretly denied suspicious and it would be demaunded of them what they thinke in deede of hir Maiesties anthoritie in ecclesiasticall matters for in this poyut they haue hitherto dealt very subtilly and closely notwithstanding their meaning may easily be perceyued of suche as diligently consider their bookes Likewyse in this parte they note certayne contrarietics in thys Churche as betwixte the Communion booke and Iniunctions touching wafers the Communion booke and aduertisementes concerning Churche vestures the Canons and the Pontificall in not ordering of ministers sine titulo and suche like matters of no importance whiche iustifie rather this Churche than otherwyse for surely if they had had weightier matters they woulde no doubte haue alleaged them But in these same matters they are muche deceyued for as I suppose in matters of ornaments of the Churche and of the ministers thereof the Queenes Maiestie togither with the Archbishop or the Commissioners in causes ecclesiasticall haue authoritie by Acte of Parliament to alter and appoynt suche rites and ceremonies as shall from tyme to tyme be thoughte to them moste conuenient To be shorte in that poynt they saye that in thinges of order one Church may many times differ from another without offence following the generall rules of Scripture for order as in appoynting time and place for prayers c. Which is a very true saying and flat contrarie to all that is sayde eyther Contrarietie in these men in the first Admonition or in this seconde for if suche things may be appoynted in the Churche not beeing expressed in the word of God but depending vpon this generall rule Let all things be done decently and in order 1 Corinth 14. then surely the Magistrate hathe authoritie in suche matters to appoynt what shall be thought vnto them most conuenient so that it be not repugnant to the worde of God except you will make this the question whether in such matters we ought to be directed by the Magistrates and gouernours of the Church or by euery priuate Pastor in his seuerall charge Io. Whitgifte All this is let slippe without answere The vievve of the seconde Admonition The thirde parte of this booke condemneth the degrees of Doctors Degrees in the Uniuersities cōdemned Bachelers of Diuinitie and Masters of Arte in the Uniuersities and slaunderously vntruely and opprobriously speaketh of the Uniuersities and suche as be in them presumptudusty prescribing a maner of reformation for the same when as I thinke verily they knowe not what Uniuersities meane But heere we maye note that they seeke to ouerthrowe all learning and degrees of learning The same parte also very slaunderonsly and vnchristianly rayleth on some Bishops by name and the rest of the Cleargie charging them most vntruely with sundrie things but bicause it is done by way of Libelling a Diuelishe kinde of reuenge therfore I trust godly and wyse men will esteeme of it accordingly Besides slaunderous reportes and opprobrious words there is nothing in thys parte worthy the answering T. C. Pag. 176. Sect. 2. After he accuseth the Admonition as if it condemned scholes and Uniuersities with all maner degrees when it dothe but inueigh agaynst degrees giuen of custome rather than of right rather by money than by merite of learning and when titles of Doctorship be giuen to those which haue not the office of a Doctor and oftentimes to those which can not doe the office if they had it and when men doe seeke vayneglory in them and suche lyke Io. Whitgifte Reade and marke their wordes page 16. and. 17. and the conclusion they vse after they haue in moste bitter maner inueighed agaynst suche degrées whiche is this These vayne names become suche vayne men but the Churche of God they become not and are forbidden by our Sauiour c. Their owne wordes be a sufficient declaration of their meaning and so is yours vttered before a playne proofe of your consenting vnto Pag. 173. sec. 1. them and