WEAKNES above WICKEDNES AND TRVTH above SVBTILTY Which is the Quakers Defence against the Boaster and his deceitfull slanders Clearly seen in an ANSWER to a BOOK called QVAKERS QVAKING Devised by Jeremiah Ive's against the dispised contemptible people trampled on by the world and scorned by the scorners In which the deceits are turned into the deceivers bosome and the truth cleared from the accuser In much plainnesse that the simple may see and perceive and come to be gathered to the Lamb from amongst the Armies of the wicked who have now set themselves against the Lord and sees it not Also some Queries to Jeremy Ive's touching his false Doctrine and Deceits By one who is called JAMES NAYLER LONDON Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black-spread-Eagle near the West end of Pauls 1656. WEAKNESSE ABOVE WICKEDNESSE AND Truth ABOVE Subtilty Which is the Quakers Defence against the Boaster and his deceitfull slanders Clearly seen in an ANSVVER to a Book called Quakers Quaking Devised by Jeremy Ive's against the dispised contemptible people trampled on by the world and scorned by the scorners WELL knew the Apostle what he said when he desired the Saints prayers that he might be delivered from Men without faith for he well knew them above all others to be the most unreasonable And the same is seen in thee Jeremy Ive's who having denyed the faith of God which is the gift of God in his Saints and set up a faith of thine own which is not the gift of God and therein hath set up in thy vaine Phylosophy and deceitfull craft wherewithall thou art become so unreasonable as not only to use thy crafty reason in broaching deceitful blasphemous doctrins denying the faith of God once received of the Saints contending against it not to be the gift of God as thou didst at Gerrard Roberts before many witnesses But also using thy craft to reason against the truth of God manifest in his Saints the Light of the world manifest in the world in which all the world may be a witness against thee yea against the plaine expresse words of the Scripture as will appear in this thy Book yea against Christ himselfe who is that Spirit whereby to set up another for judgement as by thy reasoning at Gerrard Roberts before many people where thou said that a man may understand the Scriptures without the Spirit of God and so try the Spirits and went about to prove it with thy cursed art which thing to affirme in plainnesse and truth is to deny the Spirit of Christ for to be the Teacher Judger and Tryer of all Spirits and to set up the spirit of the Devill in its stead for he that tryeth and judgeth without the Spirit of God doth it with the spirit of Satan and with that Spirit did the Scribes and Pharisees who denyed the gift of God as thou dost understand the Scriptures and try the Spirit of Jesus and Judged him to be a Devill and a Deceiver as thou dost such in whom he is manifest for which end thou hast mustered up this heap of filth and lies in thy Book to cast upon the truth and make it odious and the greatest strength thou hast in this thy work is thy vaine Phylosophy and craft with which thou reasons against the Truth both in the Saints now manifest and against the plaine Scriptures Which things may so plainly be seen to be but a heap of subtilty where the least honesty may judge thereof so that there is little danger of its doing any hurt where the least measure of innocency is minded so I shall not much trouble my selfe in the answering every particular of thy vaine stories slanders and lies onely some few I shall speak too as may serve to discover the rest what root they are of Thou commends thy Work to thy Brethren whom thou calls the Churches of Christ called to be faithfull c. And thou sayes thou knowes none to whom thy work will be more welcome I say if they be Brethren of thy Faith who with thee have denyed the Faith of Christ and set up a Faith of their own then it is like that thy work should be most welcome unto such whose faith is to believe lyes for the Devills Faith is most fit to receive and welcome the Devills work And thou tells of raising the siege laid by the Adversaries to your Faith and order I say fitly are these two put together being neither the Faith nor order of the Saints nor that which the Scripture will own neither your faith nor practice And he that is a friend of God must be an Enemy of that which is not the gift of God and that which is not the gift of God being gotten by the Devill That we deny First Thou begins about our Quaking whether we may be so called or no about which I shall not contend what Name we receive from the world whether they call us that which is true or that which is not true the thing to me I passe by onely I mind thee of a lye thou tellest because thou seems to promise repentance being better inform'd that is that we foame at the mouth in our Tremblings in our meetings but to them that are blind thou seems to prove it before thou leave it and that is because it was cast upon us in the Westmorland Priests Petition and we did not deny it though we denyed some other things in that Petition which proofe is but thus much that if I leave any of thy lies undenyed which thou hast heaped up in this thy Book the next of thy Bretheren that comes after thee to accuse us may make it a proofe that we are guilty thereof and so the lyar proves to the lyar whilst the Innocent are silent And with such proofes as this hast thou proved many of thy slanders in thy Book which might as clearly be shewed was it worth the while to follow thee into all thy deceits but a few may serve to lead the wise to see the rest The next thing thou accusest is our Doctrine and thou confessest we preach somewhat that is true yet sayest thou in this they are but the greater Deceivers And finding nothing of the truth we preach thou darest accuse thou makes a lye of thine own to accuse us with that is that we will allow of nothing to be called Gods Word but Christ and having cast this upon us thou goes about to disprove it and so disproves thy own lye and not our Doctrine so it being thine own work I shall leave it to thee The next thing thou charges upon us is that we say the Scripture may not be called the word of God which is false also as in thy sence for we own the Scripture where it is given to any by the inspiration of God to be the word to such but to others who have it not of God they may read the letter and not hear the word and have a Bible and be
must wait for another to perform to which thou art an enemy in thy Book for that which leads to tell a lie doth not lead to repent of it That is he wherewith thou a long time hast been a Sayer and not a Doer And if to the light of Christ in thy conscience thou doe not turn which shewes thee this thy wickednesse by it to be led to repentance to the Pit thou wilt goe in this thy wickednesse notwithstanding thy fained Promise So the many lies and false accusations which doth not so much strike at the truth I passe by as not willing to multiply words to clear that which our practise proves innocent in all places through the Nation where the light is followed and either that must clear us or words will not so let the Lord who is our life plead for us Onely some few Queries I shall Propound to lay open Truth and error to which if thou be as ready to answer in simplicity as thou hast been to slander in subtilty that which lies hid may sooner be brought to light The Queries are as followeth I. WHose Spirit is that which men understands the Scriptures with and tryes Spirits with who are without the Spirit of God seeing thou affirms that a man may understand Scriptures and try Spirits without the Spirit of God and whether that triall be not it which condemns the just or hath God set up such a tryer to judge yea or no II. Seeing thou confesseth Christ to be the true light and that he lighteth every man that cometh into the world but denyes that light to be within shew in plainnesse where he doth enlighten every man that cometh into the world and not within and how they come by it and seeing thou sayest every man hath it how have they it and not within III. Seeing thou confesseth that the Heathen hath a light that reproves them of sin but not within shew where it is what it is whether the light of Christ or no and how they came by it IV. Whether that which reproves the Heathen when they sin be the same that reproves thee when thou sins and the rest who call your selves believers and whether it be in the same place and of the same nature or wherein doth it differ as to place nature and operation V. Whether your light who call your selves believers be within you or no and if within how you came by it when you were in darknesse as the moving cause and if without how doth it enlighten you and not within and where doth it abide for you that is not in you VI. Whether that light which is not within can enlighten the heart and under standing whether the Gospel be not hid to all who have their hearts and minds blinded and whether it be not the work of the God of this world to blind hearts whether such as deny the light within and preach against it least people should believe in it be not in his work and Ministry yea or no VII What kind of faith thine is who hast denyed that faith that is the gift of God and how thou came by it which God did not give thee and whether that faith which is not of God be not of the Devill yea or no VIII Did ever any of the Saints professe a faith which they received not of God and whether thy contention be for the faith once delivered to the Saints and if so from whom hadst thou it seeing thou denyes it to be the gift of God IX What faith is that which pleads for sin and preaches against perfection that believes that they can never be free from six nor come to perfection while they are in this world show the Saint that so believed and so preached X. Was not the end of Christs Ministry for perfecting the Saints and is not that Antichrist whose Ministry is against it or is Christs Ministry now changed against what it was XI Whether that faith that is not of God can receive the things of God or can be imputed for righteousnesse to him that hath it and is not his righteousnesse of himself whose faith is of himself or can it be otherwise if it be the righteousnesse of faith XII Whether he that hath not received the faith of God be not an Infidell or is he to be believed in matters of God and Christ and being of a false faith is it safe to believe what he saith against the Children of light XIII Whether it be not plain nonsense to say that Christ doth enlighten every one that comes into the world as thou doest confesse in thy Book and then to deny that light to be in that enlightens XIV Whether Paul was rightly called and endued to the Ministry who was not sent to Baptize and whether it was not a signe that John was decreasing and Christ increasing that being left out in Pauls Command who was called after Christ was offered up or cannot a man now be a Minister of Christ and not sent to Baptize XV. Seeing the last of Matthew is your strength for water baptism I ask whether one may not be baptized into the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost without being dipped in carnall water also whether all you dip in the water you doe baptize them into the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost if the first of these be yea and the latter no then I conclude carnall dipping is not the thing XVI Doth every one that reads the Bible hear the word of God or hath every one the word that hath a Bible and what difference is there betwixt the ministration of the letter now and that in the Jewes time both denying the light and the faith which is the gift of God and will this save now without the ministration of the Spirit more then in their dayes XVII Whether that righteousnesse that a man reads of in the letter sets himself to doe the like without that faith which is the gift of God or the leading of the light of Christ the ministration of the Spirit be the righteousnesse of faith or selfe righteousnesse Now I appear to every honest heart that I have not proposed these Queries out of curiosity or to dive into things above the measure of a Christian but that which every one ought to know who professes not so high as thou doest So that if it be not thy subtilty least thou shouldest be discovered thou needest not be letted from answering in plainnesse that thy faith may be known what it is thou contends for that so simple ones may not be beguiled with fained suttlery instead of faith for if the faith be false that profession stinks and the Professor thereof is not to be believed in whatever he saith touching Religion FINIS
without the word and in this respect and no other doe we deny many who would make the letter the word which thou wouldst do did none know better then to believe thee and not onely so but would stop the mouth of God from speaking any more in his people or us for confessing to his word in us at which thou wrangles with words not worth heeding Thy third Errour thou charges us with is that we say we are immediatly sent of God and that thou canst not receive and yet art not ashamed to count me a lyar for saying That I coming in the name of God thou couldst not receive me but if I had come in my own name thou couldest But what spirit thou art of and of whose message thou goest is plainly seen who sets it down as an Error to say they are sent of God doth not thou herein justifie the false Prophets who run unsent and would not thou have condemned the true Prophets and Apostles as thou dost us had thou lived in their dayes who said they were sent of God and did not work Miracles in the sight of all they preacht to which thou requirest or else thou wilt not believe but the Devills faith could never believe Gods Messengers with Miracles nor without Miracles it s not like thou shouldest believe any that is sent of God who denies that Faith which is the gift of God and so calls that error which all the Ministers of Christ doth own and that which thou calls error we own and make proof thereof in our measures as they did in patience in afflictions in necessities and distresses in stripes and Imprisonments in tumults in labours in watchings and fastings c. and in turning people from their in quities which thou falsly sayes is not a singne of a Minister of Christ Then thou goes on a deceitfull story glorying in lyes adding words that was never spoken and diminishing truth to make thy selfe a cover with a lye concerning our disputes but doth not speak the truth as to thine own blasphemous Heresies which thou affirmed and went about to maintaine at Gerrard Roberts our first meeting and at other places which thy deceit hides such as these following to wit thou affirmed before many witnesses That Faith by which men are saved is not the gift of God That a man may understand the Scriptures without the Spirit of God and so try Spirits That all good is not of God That the obedience of believers is not the gift of God That the Law was not given forth by Christ That Christ was not the Minister of Circumcision That none was baptized with the holy Ghost but who wrote Miracles That John Baptist went not out of Jerusalem to Baptize That the Wildernesse in which John baptized was in Jerusalem That Jordan in which John did baptize was in Jerusalem That whosoever speaks that which they to whom he speaks doe not understand he is a foole and a Barbarian Thou said also that thou could foretel things to come and yet was not baptized with the Spirit Of which Errors I writ to thee in a Letter presently after but could never receive an answer thereof Also thy other deceits holden forth at the Bull and Mouth which were such as these That Christ lighteth every man that cometh into the world but this light was not within That the Heathen had a light that convinc't them of sin but this light was not within them That Christ took away the sin of every Man that cometh into the world Hadst thou intended honesty thou shouldst have published the whole Truth but it is the way of the Author of thy faith to cover himselfe with lyes but it is but that he may be laid open where he is and that truth may discover other of thy lyes and old stories of Austin the Monk Gregory the Pope and the King of Kent which are things more fit to rot then to be raked in I passe them by as most sutable to returne them back into the bottle from whence they came And least thou shouldst deny that I sent thee such a letter which thou never answered I shall here publish a Copy thereof that thou may answer it in thy next and others may see I have not wronged thee which Letter is as followeth Jeremy Ive's THY blasphemous deceitfull Doctrines wherewith thou leads simple people into confusion and destruction I am moved to put thee in mind of that if thou be not wilfully blind thou mayst see thy selfe out of the power of God yea and out of the forme of the sound words in the letter also as appeared in thy discourse when I was with thee some of the particulars whereof I shall mention as thou didst affirme them before many witnesses First Thou saidst that a man may understand the Scriptures without the Spirit of God and so try the Spirits But the Scripture saith Without Christ you can doe nothing John 15. 5. John 5. 30. 1 Cor. 2. and saith that Christ could doe nothing of himselfe and that the naturall man cannot know the things of the Spirit of God because they are spiritually discerned and that no man knows the things of God but the Spirit of God and that the Spirit searcheth Judges and reveals all the things of God c. And thy tryall of Spirits by the letter without the Acts 13. 27. Spirit is the same by which Christ was tryed by the Pharisees who read the Scripture of the Prophets every Sabbath but not understanding their voyces by the letter put him to death and thou art not wiser without the Spirit of God then they was and so art found an enemy to him as they was and in the same Spirit Thou said also That the Faith by which we are saved is not the gift of God But the Scripture saith By Grace you are saved through Ephes 2. 8. Faith not of your selves it is the gift of God and that Christ is the author and finisher of the Saints faith and every H b 12 2. James 1 17. John 3. 27. 2. Cor 4 13 Jude 3. Heb. 11. 1. good gift comes from above from the father of light and that a man can receive nothing except it be given him from above and that the Saints had the Spirit of Faith and that the saith to salvation was delivered to the Saints and that Faith is the substance of things hoped And thou sayest it is not the gift of God so thy Faith which is not the gift of God is the Faith of the Devill and from him thou hast received it who hast not received it from God whereof thou mayst read James 3. Thou sayedst also that the obedience of Believers is not the gift of God But the Scripture saith that the Saints obedience was 1 Pet 1. 2. Isa 26. 12. Phil 2. 13. Phil 2 13. 1 Pet. 1. 22. John 3. 21 through the sanctification of the Spirit and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus and that
true light and lighteth every man that cometh into the world but not within so that our Errour must be that we say the Light of Christ is spirituall and within and herein we have the witnesse of all those who had the faith of Christ and thereby knew what this light was which was in darknesse though the darknesse comprehended it not as Joh. 1. 5. which shined out of darknesse in their hearts which treasure they had in Earthen vessells 2 Cor. 4. 6 7. Ephes 5. 13. with many other places and much it matters not what the Infidell who hath denyed the faith of Christ saith against it Some Queries thou askes which I shall answer so far as there is any thing worth the answering in them 1. First then what need is there of Scripture to declare the mind of God I answer they testifie hereof against such as thee 2. Whether that Light will shew that the Virgin had a Son 3. Can it shew that Christ dyed and rose againe in three dayes 4. What favour it was to the people of Israel to have the written Law c. 5. Whether men by the Light within could have known Christ should have been born at Jerusalem c. To all which I answer all these things and much more was made known by the Light before they was written in the letter but being believed generally there is no such necessity that he should make a declaration of those things againe in this Nation but that he should Minister the substance to wit Christ in Spirit which none can know without this Light though they have the letter no more then they could know Christ when he came who read in the letter that he was to be born at Bethlem who might as well have askt him who bad them believe in the Light of the world that they might be the children of Light but would this Light have told us that there was an Ark builded by Moses and a Temple builded by Solomon and how many years it was a building and many other visible things which they too much doated on already and here was thou not blind might thou read thy selfe and more of thy Generation and see that the end of thy Queries is but to discover thy selfe where thou art Thou askes further Whether the Name of Christ may be known to all the world by the Light within them without Scripture or tradition I say yea and by nothing else without it for the Name of Christ consists not of Letters and sillables but in righteousnesse mercy and judgement c. which Name none can know but by the Light of the world though many of you read your Bibles who are the greatest enemies to his Name such is your knowledge as appears by your practice Other Questions thou askes the substance whereof is What then needs our books or our preaching is not that superfluous I say our preaching serves to direct people to the light which such as thou who are Reprobate to the Faith of Christ and knows not the mystery thereof which is held in a pure conscience have led them out from and some of our Book serve to manifest your folly and wickednesse before all the world but hadst thou not been partially blind thou might ask thy selfe this question and thy Brethren who would make the letter the Light and would hold it forth onely for sufficiency what need your divining from it if it be sufficient of it selfe but thy faith teacheth not that doctrine to doe as they would be done by Thy fifth errour thou chargest us with is touching John Lawson being accused for saying the day of judgement was past and this is an accusation like the rest thou says he goes about to prove it in Sauls Errand so he having answered for himselfe it may be seen whether he own it or no by them that read that book For those words wherewith he is accused I own not The sixth Errour thou sayest that George Fox said he was the eternall Judge of the world and thy proofe is the Priests Petition and that George denies it not as thou sayes but saith the Saints shall judge the world to which I say to what George saith herein we own but the Priests accusation and thy proofe we deny Thy seventh errour was that George Fox said I am the way the truth and the life and this thou proves like the rest as thou proved foaming at our meetings because he denies it not but saith the old Man cannot endure to hear the new man speak and so doe I say so also for where Christ speaks in Male or Female he is what he testifies himselfe to be if thou canst receive it thou may Thy eigth Errour is that Fox said that he which took a text of Scripture and made a Sermon of it was a Conjurer and this thou would disprove by Phillips speaking to the Eunuch to which I say those are not Georges words as thou speaks them but the words of the accuser neither did George speak of what Phillip did who was immediately sent of God nor of what was done in that generation by them who owned the spirituall Light of Christ but of what is done now by such Diviners as deny the Faith of Christ and his Call and Spirit in them and what such raiseth must needs be conjuration who denyes the faith and Spirit of God Thy ninth Errour is that he saith the Scriptures are carnall and this is a lye like the rest for he saith the letter of the Scriptures are carnall for a Scripture is known before the letter was though the blind see it not and that Scripture we doe not say is carnall but own it to be the word of God and our Rule who doe not walk after a carnall rule though not contrary to the letter Thy tenth Errour is against one Leonard Hill a name I neither know nor own and so I passe it by as not necessary for me to contend about The eleaventh Errour is John Lawson againe that he said he had been in Hell and is now in Heaven to which I say though it seem an Errour to thee yet this is plaine that the Saints have witnessed being in Hell and in Heaven also as is plain in Scripture which thou that calls it an error art ignorant of as is plain in these Scriptures with divers others Jonah 2. 2. Psal 16. 10. Ephes 2 6. 2 Cor. 12. 2 4. And they was not in an errour who witnessed this nor he if it was true in him Thy twelsth Errour is that we say we are perfect and sin not and this thou repeats over againe in thy eighteenth Error and calls it a lye but the lye being thine own twice told over I leave it with thee till thou prove it yet doe we own perfection and believe in it which is not that we never had as thou falsly sayest but as we have received Christ so we have received perfection in whom all selfe boasting is
excluded Thy thirteenth errour is that James Nayler said that none can come unto God or Christ but who come to perfection whereby it seems thou denies God or Christ to be perfection for be they granted to be perfection then none can come to them but they come to perfection But how blinde thou art who calls this an Errour is easily seen thy faith and thy doctrine who preaches against perfection but the Ministers of Christ preached to present every man perfect which thou preaches gainst Eph. 4. 11 12 13. Col. 1. 28. So we rather chuse the Apostles doctrine which standing in the faith of God which believes perfection though by the Infidells it be called Errour then imbrace a doctrine of Devills that doth not believe perfection neither was there ever any of the children of God in thy work pleading against perfection and for sin dwelling in them Thy fourteenth Errour is that I say that at all seasons whensoever the Saints either eat or drink they were to have Communion with the body and blood of Christ in their eating and drinking I say this must needs be counted an Error with the belly Gods of the world who deny the faith of Christ and so know no word in them to sanctifie the Creature such is not like to have Communion with Christ but with the lust who serve their own bellies who are at the table of Devills are not like to have Communion with the Lord but are observers of times and carnall things and therefore to such it must needs be counted an Errour so often as they eat and drink thereof to doe it in remembrance of him till he come if this be received for a truth the Devill knows there is no place for the Lust and so would hold it for an errour that he might feed without fear Thy fifteenth Errour is that James Parnell denyed all Baptismes but that of the holy Ghost so that to own the Baptism of Christ and to deny all else with thee is counted an errour but did not the Apostle erre also who said we are all baptized into one body by one Spirit and witnessed one faith and one baptisme and said he was not sent to baptize and this he witnessed who had the faith of Christ which thy faith counts an Errour And thou goes about to prove your water by questions and crooked consequences as from Circumcision and the like but cannot find one Scripture that doth command it with water after Christ sufferings or otherwise then Johns ministry wherein all may see your foundation who say the Scripture is your Rule but cannot find one plaine Scripture for that which you so highly worship and would impose upon all as a matter of salvation but must flye to your consequences to hold up that which you would make people believe is an everlasting Ordinance for which you can shew no command neither from Letter nor Spirit Moses in all his house left his Ordinances upon better grounds then consequences and meanings and that he which is much more faithfull should come short is not believed by those that know him but suppose that any doe yet own that forme of Baptisme used by the Disciples in John Ministration with that they must deny your tradition which misseth theirs both in Call Manners and Find as I have often proved for he that faith the Letter is his rule must not misse it in any thing for it they break it in one he is guilty of all much more you that misse in the maine Thy sixteenth errour is that we preach that every Man in the world hath a light within him and yet one of us thou sayest asked a Minister of the Nation whether he had that light which doth enlighten every one that comes into the world so that to ask a question which is a known Truth to prove the party asked with thee must be an Errour and this thou hoyseth up with great swelling words as though it were the greatest Errour that ever was in the world and sayes herein we are the sad spectacle of Gods spirituall judgements that ever any age hath heard of and many such loud exclamations against us for this great Errour But what thinks thou of Christ who askt the Disciples whom they said he was and yet knew they had this light in them which revealed him to be the Son of God hadst thou then lived and heard it he should not have escaped thy censure besides many other questions that he asked well known to him before the asking of them And thou goes on heaping up a deal of confusion and accuses some body but names not who sor saying that they might as well have burt the Scripture as his writing being given forth by the same Spirit the Scriptures were and by this thou sayest all that thou hast said is justified to which I say the works of the Spirit are known to be the same in their severall measures as ever they was neither is it to be more undervalued then formerly but how that Man saying so if any such there was doth justifie all thy lyes and false accusations cast upon us is a slender proof yet if we will believe thee it justifies all Thy seaventeenth Errour is thy lye where thou sayes we study and devise deceitfull tearmes that look with two faces like the Oracles of the Heathen Gods And the substance of this slander is because that Farnsworth when he was charged to say that Paul was not converted when he spoke those words in the 7 of the Romans he denyes that he doth affirme any such thing and this is counted a great Errour for sayes thou it was a negative as though it was not an affirmative to affirme there is not such a thing as well as to affirme there is such a thing and this thou aggravates as a great offence whereby thou shews in plainnesse to all that are honest that thou canst find nothing of matter against us therefore thy mischievous minde having a mind to slander hath the thing to make out of thine own bosome wherewithall to doe it Thy eighteenth Errour is that which thou call our lying First in that we say we are perfect and this is a lie of thy own and shall rest upon thy head till thou prove we have so said The second is that we say we are immediately sent of God which is a truth in them who are so sent so to say and the lie is thine own till thou prove the contrary The third lie is that one Fox said the world did not know his Name and yet after saith known by the Name of George Fox I say the Saints who have over come have a new name which none knows but he that hath it yet all the knowledge the men have of them is by a carnall name and this is true and witnessed onely the lye is in thy own ignorance The fourth lye is that Edward Burrough said his Book was sealed with the Spirit and this is
it was God who wrought all their works in them to will and to doe of his good pleasure and without Christ they could nothing and the Saints obedience was through the Spirit and the works of the Children of light are wrought in God but thy works and thy obedience which thou hast not received from God are none of Christs and therefore thine own and so selfe righteousnesse Thou sayedst that whosoever speaks what those doe not understand to whom he speaks is a foole and a Barbarian Whereas the Scripture saith that Christ spoke many things Luke 18. 34. 2. 50. 9. 45. John 10. 6. 12. 16. in Parables which were not understood by them that heard him nay his Disciples understood none of those things for his sayings were hid from them in many things neither understood they the things which were spoken So thou mayst read thy blasphemy and what Spirit thou art of who by thy deceitfull vaine Phylosophy would prove Christ a foole and blaspheme that Spirit which spoke the Parables in Scripture to such as thee and your carnall understanding Thou sayedst none were baptized with the Holy Ghost but who wrought Miracles A thing far beyond thy proofe for Miracles were to cease but so was not the baptisme of the Spirit though at first they were given because of Unbelievers What Miracles wrought Timothy or Titus and what Miracles did they of Samaria spoken on Acts 8. or these Believers of Rome and many other that might be mentioned shewing thy untruth and ignorance as to the gift of the Holy Ghost But how shouldest thou now know the effects of the Holy Ghost who hast not received him as thou didst confesse before the people that thou wast not baptized of the Holy Ghost and so thou madest it appear by thy fruits who saidst That all good is not of God That Christ was not a Minister of the Circumcision That the Law was not given forth by Christ That John went not out of Jerusalem to baptize and when I told thee he baptized in Jordan and in the Wildernesse thou sayedst that Wildernesse was in Jerusalem and Jordan also Thou sayedst also Thou couldest fore-tell things to come and yet denyed the Baptisme of the Spirit to which I told thee then and tell thee againe that to fore-tell things to come without the Spirit of God is witchery And much more such like stuffe thou utteredst which thou hast gathered in by thine imaginations which are lies and deceits whereby thou leadest blind people into errour keeping them from the teachings of the Spirit in thy traditions which is neither according to spirit nor letter as is plaine in these things in thy water-baptisme wherein thou art erred from that in the letter both in thy call in the manner and in the end thereof as it was practised by the Apostles For they that were called to baptize were first called out of their habitations and made proofe of to be Disciples of Christ by denying all and following him and they were none of them living in their worldly estates as thou dost and they were either Prophets or Apostles immediately called from the Lord to that work and did not take it up by imitation as thou dost and so thou art neither in their call place nor power who hast not left all to follow Christ nor hast received the Holy Ghost And as to the manner they did not baptize those over againe with water that were baptized before but baptized such with the Holy Ghost which thou hast not thy selfe by thine own confession And as to the end they did not goe amongst Believers and by their water divide them into Seperations as you have done by your water who have set up so many formes of Baptisms till you have devided those who had some simplicity in them into Sects and Opinions concerning your water till you have left the Spirit and are left in conformity to the world in weightier things Neither did they limit the Spirit of God to the water as you doe who deny any to Prophesie in that you call your Churches till you have dipt them or sprinkled them over againe after your fashion Neither did they lay it as a thing of absolute necessity upon all But they went among such that did not believe that Christ was come and made them Disciples before baptizing them out of unbeliefe out of Sects and Opinions and Divisions gathering them out of all Formes Ceremonies and worships into one faith one body one light one way one baptisme which yours ends in the quite contrary setting up formes and divisions and opinions and rents and contentions about your carnall water scattering abroad in your Imaginations But theirs was gathering in the Spirit so that is plaine that which you have set up is but Imaginations for it is not according to the letter being erred from it both in the call manner and the end for what is taken up from the letter must in all things follow the patterne he being cursed that adds or diminishes And from the Spirit thou canst not have it who art not baptized with the Holy Ghost thy selfe nor having any immediate Call from the person of Christ So with the light of Christ in thy conscience take notice what thou art doing and repent Cease to keep people in blindnesse and from going right on their way by thy tradititions and if Paul said they were bewitched who had begun in the Spirit and was led back by such into Circumcision though a true command of God then read thy work who art drawing people into thy tradition which as thou performest it was never commanded of God nor ever so practised by any who had the Spirit of God So if you who are called Anabaptists consider your unfaithfulnesse to your principles as to that which should have led you out of conformity to the world and their worships and fashions and seriously weigh in the light of Christ you may see more cause to repent of your sticking in that of water both out of the form and power then of accusing others for neglect who are going on in obedience to the Spirit bearing witnesse against all the worlds wickednesse vaine worships and customes and yours among the rest From a lover of your soules but not of your deceit J N The fourth Error thou chargest us with is because we bear Testimony to the Light of Christ which lighteth every one that cometh into the world and that this spirituall light of Christ is sufficient to teach in all the wayes of God and lead to God and this is counted and Error and yet in thy 36 page doth confesse the sufficiency thereof andthis is it that is our teaching which is witnessed in plaines by Christ the Prophets Apostles as John 1. 9. Joh. 8. 12. Joh. 5. 33. and herein thou canst not slander us but Christ and the holy men of God must suffer with us But sayest thou it is true that Christ is the
an affirmative out of a negative if our mouths doe prove the Scripture to be the word then stop thy mouth who charges us for to denie it But thou goest on with thy divination because we say the Scriptures are a declaration of the mind of God from that thou devinest thus That which declares Gods will is Gods word But the Scriptures declares Gods will Ergo It is Gods word As much as if thou hadst said Balaams Asse declared Gods will Ergo Balaams Asse is Gods word Which I think few will affirme yet such is thy divination and thy proofe in this like the rest of thy Book And when thou hast thus done thou belyest us againe saying that we say the Scriptures are not Gods word which is false for where the Scriptures are given by Inspiration of God it is Gods word but when the Devill or the Infidell steals them out of a Book he gets but the letter which he wresteth to his own destruction in denying the Spirit therewith and opposing Christ the light of the world which is the next thing thou settest upon And though thou be made to confesse that Christ is the true light that lighteth every man that coms into the world yet would thou make people believe it is not sufficient and calls it an Errour for us to say that this light is able to teach a man to worship God rightly and yet here confounds thy selfe and confesseth that its nature and property hath such attendency that is sayest thou as if God had said I have done that which is sufficient for thy purgation and thus thou applyest to the light of Christ to prove that it is not sufficient and in plaine words afterwards confesseth that Christ had done that which is able to enlighten and informe the world and this light thou confessest he hath enlightned every one withall and yet calls it an Errour for us to say that his light is sufficient Hath not thy imaginations blinded thee herein doth this true light enlighten every man that cometh into the world and is able to enlighten and informe the world into the knowledge of it and hath it such a nature property and tendency and yet must be an errour to say that it is sufficient to guide in the wayes of God It seemeth thou mayest say a thing and confesse it for truth who denies it in the life but if we say it that live in it it is counted an Errour The next piece of thy divination is that if every man have received this light then every man hath received Christ for he is that Light and in this here is a double deceit First in seeming to deny what before thou confessed that Christ enlightens every man that comes into the world Secondly because Christ is that light thou wouldst make that light Christ which many have the light of Christ which lets them see their evill deeds but not believing and following never come to the new Birth or Christ formed in them but walk in darknesse though they see the light that doth reprove them thou bringest that Scripture John 11. 10. But if a man walk in the night he stumbleth because there is no light in him And with this thou wouldst deny that the light is in every man when as the words hath relation to his way which is true in the way of the wicked there is no light yet in the heart of the wicked there is a light which condemns his wicked wayes who is gone out of the light into the darknesse and so being in the night stumbles because the light is not in that way but in that which reproves that way so that he that is in selfe is in darknesse yet doth the light shine in the darknesse which manifests the deeds of darknesse and reproves them and this shall all men witnesse to whereby thy deceite shall be daily more laid open Thy next thing thou wouldst prove that the day of Judgement is not past I say my desire is that thou wouldst mind it and prepare for it by leaving thy lying and deceit and wicked envy for a wofull day will that be to thee if thou be found in thy sin pleading for it unrepented of all this heap of confusion in thy Book which thou hast raked together to cast upon the Truth will then lye heavy upon thy Head For thy Water Bread and Wine c. I have spoken to formerly which may stand till it be disproved Thy next work is to prove respect of persons a thing which God never commanded but hath often forbidden neither canst thou find one Scripture that commands it yet thy impudency is such that thou perverts that Scripture Lev. 19. 32. into a lye and faith it is Thou shalt honour the person What a standing Rule is this word of yours that the deceite can thus turne quite into another thing then it speaks the Devill likes such a word as he can turne every way to plead for his kingdome With it he can plead for his pride though it condemns pride For respect of persons though it forbid respect of persons For swearing though it say Swear not at all Nay is there any thing so vile which his subtilty in his servants cannot plead for therewith no wonder though in all his he thus contends for that to be the word which he can thus wrest for if the creature once believeth that to be the word which God hath written in their hearts which the Devill cannot change then is the Devill undone and his kingdome broken and his many wayes of deceit hedged up when that one way and one word comes to be known which word didst thou minde would judge the lyar in thee who faith we make it a note of our infallible ministry that we doe not reverence men and charges us with denying honour and respect due to Parents Masters Husbands and Wives c. a thing which never entred into our hearts but what our words and live doth witnesse against Another lie thou tellest That thou dare say not one of ten of us shall give the same Answer to a Question To which I say There is little that may be a reproach to the truth but thou dare say it But upon what ground doest thou say this having never proved ten of us therein and denying the Spirit of Prophesie in thee must it not be by the Divination of witchcraft by which thou can foretell such things as never was seen nor heard and indeed the more to be suspected because it is a lie Thy next thing thou would prove that Christ hath two bodies This I know That Christ is the head of one body and that Christ I own but how he hath two bodies and but one head or how thou wilt sever Christ from that body which ascended which is the head or make that into a head and a body I shall not here dispute with thee it serveth me to know that that body is my head and of the
Church which is his body which cannot be said to be Christ distinct from that body and so cannot properly be said to have two bodies the one of them being the Christ Neither doe we herein deny that Christ our head to take flesh wholly as thou falsly accuseth us but we own him that came from Heaven and is ascended into Heaven that word that became flesh and dwelt among us which thou knowest not who hath denied that faith which is the gift of God with Himancus Pluentus with whom thou wouldst charge us adding a lie thereto as though we say the Resurrection is past And another lie thou tellest that one of us being asked the Question answers that Christ was but a figure and to prove that lie thou sayest See Sauls Errand to Damascus page 54. when that Book hath but 37 pages in it a sutable proof for such a lie Neither is there such an Answer by any of us in all that Book as thus thou proves thy work with thy owne shame And thou goes on to tell whom we have affinity with as Gnosticks and Mamchers c. but is not thy affinity with them who art so well skill'd in their Opinions which we meddle not with and is it not by their Spirit which thou boasts to know what ten of us will say before hand their Spirits we deny and thine also with the Papists and the rest which thy filthy mind would compare us to to make us odious that with the rest of thy bundle of light vain frothy talk and stories which thou hast set in thy Book which airie spirit stinks and its words in the nostrills of all sober men as thy long story of a Monk set in a Chaire of carrying a bushel of coals to Newcastle of Hares and Hounds of Apes and coulting language and such filthy stuffe as thou fillest thy Book with might sute a Stage-play more like then a sober Christian all which we turn thee back with the heap of thy confusion which in thy Book is not worth answering Then thou comest to the conclusion as thou sayest and thou exhortest that every one would compare what thou hast writ with the holy Scripture and then judge So say I also that they may see thee a perverter of Scripture and a liar as I have proved thee Another lie thou tellest also that all that thou hast writ against us is either from our own mouths or our own writings when the greatest part of the accusations thou hast gathered out of a bloody persecuting Petition of the Priests of Westmorland which are their lies cast upon us not our words nor writings And the rest are such as with thy Divination thou hast raised out of the bottomlesse pit which with the truth are turned upon thine own head but us they touch not Something more thou makest as though thou couldst say of the evill manners of some of our Teachers but thou forbeatest To which I say they that are blind may believe it is thy moderation but who hath an eye to see how into the depth of Satan thou art gone to drag up all this filth in thy book to cast upon us who are clear of it I say he who well notes this will find cause to be of another mind Thou addest a Postscript to thy Book no lesse full of wickednesse then the rest and that is wherein thou hast perverted my words into a lye who was speaking of the two Seeds the Old Man and the New one born after the flesh the other after the Spirit and because I said that Christ is not born after the flesh but after the Spirit this thou wouldst pervert as though I denied Christ come in the flesh at Jerusalem which some seeing thy murtherous mind at that time did write down the words then spoken and have set to their hands which may shew thy wickednesse and clear the truth as followeth 22d 4th Month 1656. At the Bull Mouth in Martins London JAmes Naylor declaring of the two Seeds the Seed of the Woman and the Seed of the Serpent the light being in the One and the Darknesse in the other in reference to what Jeremy Ives alledged from that Scripture He that walketh not according to this Rule it is because there is no light in him said That Christ was not born after the flesh but after the Spirit That that which was born after the flesh was flesh and that which was born after the Spirit was Spirit and except a man was born of water and the Spirit he cannot see the Kingdome of God Jeremy Ives hearing what was spoken said I have now what I lookt for and afterwards demanded of James Naylor the same thing againe James Naylor said That Christ was not borne after the flesh but after the Spirit and immediately adjoyned For that which is born after the flesh is flesh and that which is born after the Spirit is Spirit And also said that Christ was begotten of the Father and born of the Virgin that he was true flesh and true blood and that he appeared in the likenesse of sinfull flesh but was not sinfull Hest And these words he spake together whereof we are Witnesses George Bishop Richard Greneway Robert Rich. William Wilson Richard Davies Humfrey Wollrich Robert Dring John Clarke AND whereas thou sayest the Scripture makes no such distinction as born after the flesh and after the Spirit read Gal. 4. 29. and thou mayest see that lie contradicted And that be that is born after the flesh is a persecuter of him that is born after the Spirit So it was before Christ suffered at Jerusalem and so it is now Neither was Christ as he was born of Mary born after the flesh but by promise begotten and brought forth though he was true and holy flesh in the likenesse of sinsull flesh but not sinfull flesh being begotten not of sinfull flesh but of the Holy Ghost by the word of the promise which word became flesh but is not after the flesh but how shouldst thou know what he is that came down from Heaven or how he is born who hast denied the faith which is the gift of God Thy earthly faith knowes not the heavenly body whose flesh is the life of all Creatures how it is begotten neither how it is born A Promise thou makest in the latter end of thy Book which here I mind thee of which if thou perform may be profitable to thy soule therefore I am the more willing to put thee on it The Promise is this That if by the words of truth it shall be made manifest that thou hast spoken any untruth thou shalt with readinesse of mind make a publick acknowledgement of it unto the world which if thou perform now that thy lies are clearly laid open there is not much of thy Book that must stand undenied But that Spirit which made the Promise so far before hand whose repentance stands in thy own will will never perform this Promise Thou