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A41776 A dialogue between the Baptist and the Presbyterian Wherein the Presbyterians are punished by their own pens, for their cruel and soul-devouring doctrines, making God the ordainer of all the sins of men and devils: and reprobating the greatest part of mankind, without any help of salvation. Whereunto is annexed, a treatise of election, intituled, The order of causes: formerly published by an eminent servant of Christ, and now republished with some explication concerning free-will. By Thomas Grantham, messenger of the baptized churches in Lincolnshire. Grantham, Thomas, 1634-1692. 1691 (1691) Wing G1530; ESTC R216815 20,667 29

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and Compeller it is not a Crime but in as much as it is of Man it is Wickedness Bapt. Certainly these things hitherto asserted by you are dreadfully Blasphemous and more like the Doctrine of the Turks than of true Christians and ought to be exploded with the same detestation which was wont to be made as my Author sheweth in these words I do Anathematize the Blasphemy 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Mahomed saying That God deceiveth whom he will and whom he will he leadeth to what is good for if God would Men would not war one with another but he doth what he will and is himself the cause of all Good and of all Evil all things are governed by Fate and Destiny Nicetus Saracenita Pr. Our Doctrine is more ancient than Mahomet St. Augustin did maintain it It is certain that Judas could not but betray Christ seeing God's Decrees are immutable And whether a Man bless or curse he always doth it necessarily in respect of God's Providence and in so doing he doth always according to the Will of God Piscat de Praedest Thes 12. 1. Bapt. Antiquity for the first four Centuries is against your Doctrine Augustin tho sometime tinctured with it yet upon better Advice exclaims against it And as to the Instance of Judas Antiquity is against you For thus saith Chrysostome Judas my Beloved was at first a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Child of the Kingdom when he heard it said to him with the Disciples Ye shall sit on twelve Thrones but at last he became a Child of Hell Chrysost Orat. 52. as quoted by Mr. J. Goodwin Pr. I perceive you hold that a Child of God may possibly fall away and perish This is a dangerous Error Bapt. That some may depart from the Faith giving heed to seducing Spirits is clear in the Word of God and of this fall I doubt the Presbyterians many of them are a terrible Instance as well as others Nor need any Man say more concerning falling away than they do in their Confess of Faith made by the Assembly of Divines for as they deny not but that there are temporary Believers and truly such are all that fall away So they plainly tell us That the purest Churches under Heaven are subject to Mixtur● and Error and some have so degenerated as to become no Churches of Christ but Synagogues of Satan Chap. 25. Sec. 5. Surely the purest Churches under Heaven are true Believers and if these purest Churches may become the Synagogues of Satan it is too much to prove the Point For my part though I doubt not but there is a state attainable even in this Life from which by the Grace of God Christians shall not fall yet I hold it a vanity for any Man to affirm of himself or of any other Person in particular that it is impossible for him to fall I hold it better by far for the best as well as others to take heed lest they fall And here the Decree concerning Reprobation may be useful for God never made it to cause Men to be Reprobates but to hinder them from being such like as all good Laws made against Treason and Felony were not made to make Men Traitors or Felons but to prevent them that they might not be Traitors nor Felons Let us not then turn the Goodness of our God into Perverseness nor his Grace into Wantonness by thinking he will damn any Man without first shewing Mercy or save us of necessity for is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance how then shall he judg the World Pr. But why do you suggest your fears that the Presbyterians are a terrible instance of falling away as well as others Bapt. Because they have received a Doctrine the Tenour of which is such that no Man which receiveth it can have any true or well-grounded Faith for if God did extend the Death of Christ to scarce one Man of an hundred how is it possible for any Man to know assuredly that Christ died for him in particular He may have an opinion Christ died for him but he cannot be sure of it seeing the certain knowledg who Christ died for must not be built upon any good which we conceive to be wrought in us but upon the clear testimony of the Word of God Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God Rom 10. Hence all are bound to believe under pain of Damnation Mark 16. 16. Pr. We deny by the Pen of Mr. Whitfield p. 75. that all Men are commanded to believe but only the least part of the World and Mr. Brinsley tells us There should no Gospel be preached but for the Elects sake And Mr. Calvin saith That so many Nations of Men together with their Infants were involved WITHOUT REMEDY in eternal Punishment by the fall of Adam and he fell because God thought it expedient for no imaginable Reason but that so it seemed good in the sight of God Calv. Inst l. 3. c. 23. And hence we conclude that those Nations which have not the light of the Gospel Christ died not for them for if God gave his Son to die for them which is the greater he would not deny them the Gospel which is the lesser B. K. Serm. and Letter Bapt. That God is known throughout the whole World to be Propitious Gracious and Merciful cannot be denied and where God is known to be gracious pardoning Sin upon Repentance he is known in Christ though the Name of Christ be not known and indeed few knew him by that Name of Jesus Christ till he was born of the Virgin And that God has taken care that his Name Gracious and Merciful should be known throughout the World is evident not only by the Holy Scriptures but by the Writings of the Heathen yea the Turks themselves though they are for Destiny yet begin almost every Chapter of their Alcoran with these words In the Name of God Gracious and Merciful And Prosper Augustin's Disciple De vocatione Gentium shews Tha● God did never leave himself without Witness in any part of the World Act. 4. 17. which he compares with Psal 76. 8 9. and 138. 4 5 6. Isa 60. to make it good And Mr. Pierce shews excellently how the Gospel is spread throughout the World As 1. All Protestant Countries 2. All the Countries of Papists 3. All the Greek Churches 4. All the Muscovites 5. All the Asiaticks under the Patriarch of Jerusalem 6. The Christians called Melchites under the Patriarch of Antioch 7. The Armenians under an hundred Bishops 8. The Christians called Jacobites mingled with the Mahometans through a great part of Asia under the Patriarch of Carmite 9. The Christians under the Patriarch of Mezul about Assyria Mesopotamia Parthia and Media accounted more than all the Papists 10. The Christians called Georgians in Iberia 11. The Christians called Circassians 12. The Christians called Mengrellians 13. The Christians of Natolia under the Patriarch of Constantinople 14. The Kingdoms of Cazan African