wee must relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and her Pastors There be moe Pastors in the Church then the Pope though he be granted first he is not all There be moe Churches then his Church what hath Pope Vrban one man to doe with Pastors with the Church but that which wee know well enough by Pastors and Church in conclusion you meane the Pope I could interpret Saint Anselme well enough as that if a Controuersie were referred by the Church or an Heresie to be corrected in the Church which touched the case of the Catholicke Church it could not be put ouer more fitly to any one man by the Church representatiue in a Councel then vnto the Pope first Bishop of Christendome of greatest not absolute power amongst Bishops But I know your Saint Anselme well enough This was not his meaning he was partiall post natus not fit to speake in this cause nor amongst the Fathers A great Bishop I grant him He was Archbishop of Canterbury no great Doctor but respectiuely considering the barbarous times in which hee liued farre from being one of the ancient Fathers or their grand-child He liued in the dayes of King Henry the first and was a factionist for Pope Vrban his good Lord and Master So aske my fellow if I be a thiefe your bottle-ale Hostesse where you vse it seemeth to meete in Partridge alley with your gossips is well enough acquainted with these passages and can tell you as much as Saint Anselme could if an Heretick aske her who is Supreame ale-canner on Earth shee will answer no doubt why who but his holinesse In this case I beleeue them both alike as good reason for one as for other Sure yours are no better then those Corkes with which your Hostesse vseth to stop her bottles but agree as you can you and your Hostesse we proceede to the next Proposition III. That Apostolicall traditions and ancient customes of the holy Catholique Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige vs THis is also contrary to the expresse words of our owne Bibles How wherefore we shal see when we can In the interim thus wee draw on Traditions are of two Sorts in the writings of Antiquity as the word is ambiguous of two significations There are Traditions writteÌ„ improperly so called and there are Traditions vnwritten deliuered from hand to hand The name is sometime applyed to the one and sometime attributed to the other you meane not here Traditions written I know it no more doe we we agree to take it of vnwritten Traditions in opposition vnto Scripture as where Tertullian speaketh in his Book de coronâ militis thus Scripturam nullam invenies Traditio tibi praetenditur euictrix Scripture for this you can finde none the originall came from Tradition Traditions are considered Originally in their Authors Christ the Apostles the Church priuatemen which haue their authority more or lesse answerable to the worth of their Originals Againe they are considered materially in regard of what they treat of what they containe whereof they are of Orders Rights practices opinions in common vse and custome amongst men Traditions instituted by our Sauiour euen in points of beliefe Faith haue Diuine authority as his written word hath Traditions deriued from the Apostles haue equall authority with their Preachings and their writings I approue that processe of the Controuersor The authority of Gods Word is not because it is written but because it commeth from God Traditions of the Church haue such authority as the Church hath all binde and oblige as they were intended and as their extent is For they must be considered not onely from the Author but from the End Some were intended to be Permanent others onely to be transient for a Time onely or else for euer Some vniuersall some onely Partiall for the Catholique or else a priuate Church Such variety and difference is in Traditions which this Hudler confoundeth to deceiue his Nouice with indistinctions Now the question is not whether there be Traditions or haue beene heretofore we doe grant it in euery kinde that either there are or haue beene Traditions of Christ his Apostles the Church priuate men The question is not of what authority they are we grant their authority is from and as the Authors but the question is of their Credit and Extent First whether the pretended Traditions of Christ and his Apostles were indeed so ordained or deriued as they are pretended or rather counterseits and suppositions Proue them true vndoubted and we rise vp vnto them Secondly to what ends they were instituted whether to last and indure euer or for a time whether to supply the defects of Scripture not else sufficient for the end This we denye for it is our Position that the written Word of God without vnwritten Traditions is perfect and absolute and sufficient for the end whereto it was intended To make the man of God absolute in euery good worke Abuse not your selues nor your Proselites here slander not nor belye vs giue vs any Tradition of Christ or his Apostles giue vs good euidence for what you say goe proue it conuincingly to haue come from them by Scripture Fathers consent of Antiquity can you aske any more and we receiue it with both our armes as Gods holy Word and Institution Quae vniuersa tenet Ecclesia ab Apostolis praecepta benè traduntur quanquam scripta non reperiantur Though I finde it not vpon record in Scripture yet I receiue it as proceeding from the Apostles if the vniuersall Church imbrace it said Saint Augustine and I subscribe vnto it bring vs any such Tradition so accepted so receiued so commended and you shall see wee will reuerence it as much as you or more but if you giue me copper in stead of gold pardon me if I beleeue you not nor receiue it for pay Ecclesiasticall constitutions are moe more certaine of the same authority with the Churches written Lawes which binde generally if made for generall obligation or else particularly if they haue but locall and confined limitation omni modo bind they doe vnto obedience so long in such sort so farre forth as the authors did intend till the same authority disaâ—ow them which gaue vnto them being at the first In the 34. Article to this purpose wee reade of and concerning Ecclesiasticall Traditions It is not necessary that Traditions and ceremonies be in all places one or vtterly like for that at all times they haue beene diuers and may be changed according to diuersities of Countries times and mens manners So that nothing be ordained against Gods word Your Catholique cares be they round or long cannot be offended with this position I thinke Whosoeuer through his priuate iudgement willingly and purposely doth openly breake the Traditions and ceremonies of the Church which be not repugnant vnto the word of God and be ordained and approued by common authoritie ought to be rebuked openly that others may
Traditions Act. 16. 4. this is one Act. 15. 29. To abstaine from bloud and strangled Exempt such dishes specified from such dressing haue with you to Masse to Mr. Mayes as I am inuited by Sir A. P◠peraduenture your selfe 2 Tim. 1. 13. We finde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the forme of wholesome words in our Bibles And if this be Traditions vnwritten iudge you good Catholiques and set not so high a price vpon this arrant blunderer then whom a verier Goose neuer handled Goose-quill And so goe see if your leasure will serue Fathers that affirme somewhat not what they should The first you must see if you please is Irenaeus Lib. 3. cap. 4. for he will not trouble your seeing with Clemens Ignatius Dionysius Areopagita Polycarpus Egesippus Iustinus Martyr all elder than Irenaeus and vaunted of by his good masters and no doubt as much to poynt as Irenaeus who yet is held to be resolute and irrefrageable in that place Propter quod oportet deuitare quidem illos quae autem sunt Ecclesiae cum summâ diligentia deligere apprehendere veritatis Traditionem For which cause wee must shun and eschew them but with all possible diligence make choyce of the things belonging to the Church and lay hold vpon the Tradition of truth Which Tradition is no other thing but the rule of our faith The holy Scripture nothing vnwritten vncertaine beside much lesse against Scripture This is somewhat in your opinion but that which is the thing intended indeede is this which followeth in Irenaeus Et si quibus de aliquâ modicâ quaestione disceptatio esset nonne oporteret in antiquissimas recurrere Ecclesias in quibus Apostoli conuersati sunt ab ijs de praesenti quaestione sumere quod certum re liquidum est Thus hee questioneth I answere affirmatiuely yes No doubt we ought for resolution in poynts of doubtfull controuersie relye vpon that decision of the eldest Churches Doe we refuse this triall good Sir Gagger Where you will in what poynt you will I vndertake thus to iustifie the Church of England name you the Controuersie one or moe and maintaine the contrary if you can or dare The question is not with Irenaeus what must be Law but how the Law is to be expounded and interpreted Scripture the Law and Tradition the Interpretation that is the perpetuall praxis of the Church to expound the doubtfull texts of Scripture But Irenaeus proceedeth farther than so it will be said For What if the Apostles had left vs no writing at all Nonne oportet ordinem sequi Traditionis quam tradiderunt ijs quibus committebant Ecclesias Farther indeede but to no purpose this is vpon supposition If it had been so which is not so nor could be so Secondly it followeth not that because if God had not giuen Israei a Law it is probable hee would haue continued his former course with Abraham Isaac and the Patriarchs therefore when he had giuen them his Law they were still to looke for immediate or Angelicall Reuelations as before No more is it consequent to reason pietie or Irenaeus intent that albeit if no Scripture had beene written onely Tradition must haue beene followed therefore Scripture being written wee should as otherwise addresse our selues vnto Tradition But thirdly wee come home to poynt Shew vs any thing tendred by those Ecclesiae antiquissimae to be belieued and obserued and see if wee respect it not as well and as much as you Till you shew vs such Traditions leaue your prating idlely at randome touching worth and weight and vse and authoritie of Traditions Your Traditions tendred in these dayes are onely in name as Simon Magus was and Simon Peter the same no more of credite than hee of pietie both alike Origen is next to be seene in cap. 6. ad Roman Hee calleth Baptisme of Infants a Tradition and let it be so It is the vniuersall iudgement and most ancient practise of the Catholique Church deduced at least from Scripture if not proued in Scripture as the controuersor himselfe confesseth Be it a Tradition it is more for our aduantage than otherwise For we admit receiue defend and practise it which must needes giue the lye vnto your proposition That according to the Doctrine of the Protestants Apostolicall traditions ancient customes of the holy Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige For the World knoweth your brazen face will blush to deny it wee receiue it practise it are obliged by it S. Damascen may stand by vnlesse you meane to make your friends with him a childe in yeares of yesterdayes birth in respect of those old Heroes of the Primitiue times Not that he saith any thing Lib. 4. cap. 17. more than an other or more effectuall and to purpose but because he is not of that desert or esteeme to be ranked with the Fathers of the Primitiue times being long post natus and a Partian many wayes for which cause I answere him not S. Chrysostome is peremptory and through for Traditions In 2. ad Thessal 2. vers 16. he saith Hence it is plaine and apparant that the Apostles deliuered not all in writing but very many things without booke Thus hee but to what end For no Protestant liuing in his right wits will deny this That the Apostles spake much more then is written And whatsoeuer they spake as Apostles in execution of their Ministery is of equall authority with that which they wrote For inke and paper conferre no authoritie or validity beyond the subiect and author of the writing Therefore the Tradition of the Apostles and of the Church is without all question of good credite and esteeme and so much wee professe Art 34. I graunt it hath displeased some which is said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is Tradition which auoweth it seeke no further I see no reason why any should be so displeased therewith For if it be a Tradition of the Catholique Church and such Traditions onely hee meaneth Chrysostome saith there no more than hee may No more than Augustine and Tertullian haue said It is Tradition I goe no further No more will◠in any thing for my part I promise you that is controuerted betwixt you and vs at this day Make that appeare which you propose to haue been a Tradition of the Catholique Church and you and I shall soone agree shake hands and no more adoe Saint Basil you haue kept for the close it seemeth and for the vpshot of all and he indeed is in the place remembred very much for all Traditions vnwritten deriued to the Church from the Apostles I know some Protestants especially of preciser cut doe discredit the Author as a Counterfeit onely vpon Erasmus bare word who sauoured some discongruity which I could neuer finde of stile I am not of that or their minde Others being at a stand because of their owne priuate fancies oppose Saint Basil vnto Saint Basil For my part I beleeue
what meane you by them of whom where when vpon what grounds why a rambling logodiarrhe without wit or reason Edicta Principum Decreta Synodorum And iudicia pro tribunali are of large extent of different alotment For against God Equity Truth and Honesty what an idle discourse is it thus to shoote your bolts as boyes doe stones to make Duckes and Drakes vpon the surface of the water to glide smoothly for two or three grasings and then sinke to the bottome without any more adoe Adde quantity to iudgements Decrees Edicts wee shall know what you would say and so answere As for humane wisedome that helpe on our right hand haue you such cause to boast we haue no sense nor reason I thinke you doe not find vs such arrant fooles as vtterly destitute of humane indowments If you doe the better for you You may cary the cause against vs without more adoe Customes we haue many of the better sort not all your anticke fits and gesticulations You haue not all antiquity had you haue many they neuer saw Silly man know you not most customes doe and may vary keepe your owne if you please we are not so wedded to them nor to all ours but vpon reason we haue will and may change by better warrant then you can auoide As for multitude we dare drip Siders with you old and late but these are meere flashes of your Catholike vanity I haue said it often I repeate it in the close that you may remember it the better at least you shall find that is my selfe that will ioyne issue with you when you dare to maintaine the doctrine of the Church of England and oppose the doctrine of the Romish Church by all of these or any of these Antiquitie Custome Multitude humane wisedome Iudgements Decrees Edicts and Councels If I haue not for me in all or euery one as good and better share and interest for my confession theÌ„ you for yours I wil yeeld As for Miracles Visions and such hobgoblin-stuffe I am contented you appropriate to your owne So did the Gentiles brag of the like as Chrysostome obserueth Orat. 1. in Iudai santes pag. 34. Edit Hesheâ— So did the Donatists as S. Augustine reporteth de notis Ecclesiae ca. 19. Their miracles were then as yours now Figmenta mendacium hominum aut portenta fallacium spirituum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a prouerbiall speech in Athenaeus Fooles may be frighted with Hagges and Fairies men of vnderstanding know it is but knauery At Lauretto Sichem Annuntiada or wheresoeuer we haue the like puppet playes amongst our Catholike neighbours Cachinnantibus daemonijs at such iugling tricks for their aduantage And yet take me not so as if I cast off all miracles I admit I admire them that were true for a true end the ratificatiou of Truth vnto the soule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That such as would not yeeld vnto the word preached might yet be conuicted by that miraculous power saith Clemens in his Constituions This was that the world might beleeue but yet since and euer Chrysostome said true 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 One faith and beleefe is to be regulated not by miracles but by the Scripture which on good foundation we defend containes all that is Necessary for our saluation You haue done with your Reader and I with you till we meet againe at the next turne till then farewell A list of the seuerall errors imputed to the PROTESTANTS by this Gagger being so many Lyes I. THey maintaine in the first place that the Scriptures are easie to be vnderstood II. That in matters of Faith wee must not relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and of her Pastors but onely vpon the written Word III. That Apostolicall Traditions and ancient Customes of the holy Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige vs. IIII. That the Church can erre V. That the Church hath beene hidden and inuisible VI. That it is forbidden in holy Scripture the publike seruice of the Church to be in a Tongue not vnderstood by all the Assistants VII That Saint Peter was not the first or chiefe among the Apostles and that none was greater or lesse among the twelue VIII That Saint Peters faith hath failed IX That a Woman may bee supreame Gouernesse of the Church in all causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall as Queene Elizabeth was X. That Antichrist shall not be a particular man and that the Pope is Antichrist XI That none but God can forgiue or retaine sinnes XII That we must not confesse our sinnes but onely to God XIII That Pardons and Indulgences were not in vse in the Apostles times XIIII That the Actions and Passions of the Saints doe serue for nothing vnto the Church XV. That no man can doe workes of Supererâ—gation XVI That by the fall of Adam we haue all lost our free-will and that it is not in our owne power either to choose good or eâ—ill XVII That it is impossible to keepe the Commandements of GOD though assisted with his Grace and the holy Ghost XVIII That onely Faith iustifieth and that good workes are not absolutely necessary to Saluation XIX That no good workes are meritorious XX. That Faith once had cannot be lost XXI That God by his will and ineuitable decree hath ordained from all eternity who shall be damned and who saued XXII That euery man ought infallibly to assure himselfe of his saluation and to hold that hee is of the 〈◊〉 her of the praedestinate XXIII That euery one hath not his Angell keeper XXIIII That the holy Angels pray not for vs. XXV That we may not pray vnto them XXVI That the Angels cannot helpe us XXVII That no Saint departed hath afterward appeared to any vpon Earth XXVIII That Saints deceased know not what passeth in the Earth XXIX That they pray not for vs. XXX That we may not pray to them XXXI That the bones or reliques of Saints are not to be kept no vertue proceedeth from them after they be dead XXXII That Creatures cannot be sanctified or made more holy then they are already by their owne Nature XXXIII That Children may bee saued by their Parents faith without Baptisme XXXIV That imposition of hands vpon the people called by Catholikes Confirmation is not necessary nor to be vsed XXXV That the bread of the Supper is but a figure of the body of Christ not his body XXXVI That wee ought to receiue vnder both kindes and that one alone sufficeth not XXXVII That sacramentall vnction is not to bee vsed to the Sicke XXXVIII That no interior grace is giuen by the imposition of hands in the Sacrament of holy Orders XXXIX That Priests and other religious persons or any others who haue vowed their chastity vnto God may freely marry notwithstanding their vowes XL. That fasting and abstinence from meates is not grounded on holy Scripture nor causeth any spirituall good XLI That Iesus Christ descended not into hell nor deliuered thence the Soules of
riddles Saint Hier in praefat commen in Eph. Saint Aug. Ep. 119. cap. 21. saith The things c. Saint Gregorie hom 6. in Ezech and many others confesse the same Contrary to the expresse words of their owne Bible Math. 23. 2. 2. 3. * Note here that he doth not say whosoeuer but whatsoeuer giuing vs thereby to vnderstand that not onely the bonds of sinne but as well all other knots and difficulties in matters of saith and manners are to be loosed by Saint Peter and by the Pastors that succeed him in the Church See more to this effect Deut. 17. 8. See Aggee the 2. and 11. 2 Chron. 19. 8. See Fathers which affirme the same S. Gregor Nazian in Oratione excusat Tertul. lib. de praescrip Haeret S. Cyprian Lib. 1. Epi. 3. S. Aug. lib. 1. cont Cres cap. 33. lib. cont epist Fund ca. 5. Whether now wilt thou beleeue so great a Bishop as S. Anselme or some other Host or Hostesse that sell bottle-ale Contrary to express words of their owne Bible 1. 2. 3. Thas Traditions are to be receiued see more Shall then the saying of some vnlearned Baker ouer beare great Saint Basil See Fathers that affirme the same S. Basil lib. de spirit Sanct. ca. 27. saith that some things we haue from Tradition of the Apostles both which haue force alike vnto godlinesse Some things wee haue from Scripture other things from the Apostles Traditions both which haue like force vnto godlinesse Shall then the saying of some vnlearned Baker ouer-beare great Saint Basil And consequently cannot erre See more Iohn 16. 13. Therefore it is not forbidden in holy Scripture the publike seruice of the Church to bee in a tongue not vnderstood by the Assistants Now the names of the twelue Apostles are these the first Simon which is called Peter Therefore c. And what other thing is it for Peter to confirme and strengthen his brethren than to practice and exercise his greatnesse ouer them For he that doth strengthen and confirme is greater and they who are strengthened c. are made thereby inferiors to him who doth strengthen and confirme them See more for proofe hereof c. See Fathers that affirme the same Theoph. in 22. Luk calleth Peter Prince of the Disciples Eusebius in Chron First Bishop of Christians S. Cyril of Hier. Cat. 2. Prince and most excellent of all the Apostles S. Chrys hom 55. in Mat. Pastor and Head of the Church Cont. Crescon 3. 15. Contrary to their own Bible 2 Thes 2. 3. For so Saint Peter should then be Antichrist for he was Pope and the very first of Popes Therefore the great Antichrist shall be a particular man Contrary to expresse words of their owne Bible See more Mat. 16. 19. See Fathers that affirme the same Contrary to the expresse words of your owne Bible Therefore sinnes may be confessed vnto man See the Fathers who affirme the same Tertul. lib. ad Mart. ca. 1. Pope Vrban the second graunted a plenary Indulgence to such as would goe to the Holy-Wars An. Christi 160. Hence hath the ground of Indulgences beene alwayes taken but more principally from the super abundant merit of Iesus Christ Whence it appeareth that man by assistance of Gods grace may doe some things counselled And these we call workes of supererogation See one Father for the same in stead of many I could produce See more Eccles 15. 14. Is it not then plaine wilfulnesse to denye Freewill See Fathers that affirme the same S. Iren. Lib. 4. cap. 7. Contrary to express words of their owne Bible Briefly if the Commandements were impossible they could binde no man For it is not to bee conceiued how one should sinne in a thing which hee could not possibly auoid It is not to be conceiued how one should sin in a thing which hee could not possibly auoid Lastly Saint Basill who saith it is an impious thing to say that the commandements of God are impossible See more 1 Cor. 9. c. See Fathers that affirme the same S. Ambrose de Apolog. Dauid ca. 6. S. Hier. lib. 3. cont Pelag. S. Aug. de spirit lit cap. vlt. 1. 2. 3. Contrary to the expresse words of their owne Bible See more Ose 13. 9 c. See Fathers that affirm the same S. Aug. lib. 1. ciuit Tert. de Orat cap. 8. S. Cyprian Lib. 4. Epist 2. S. Ambrose Lib. 2. de Cain et Abel will nâ—t that we refer vnto God the preuarication of Adam or treason of Iudas though hee knew the sin before it was committed Contrary to their owne Bible Therefore S. Paul himself was not assured infallibly A point of doctrine so improbable that we will not labour to ouerthrowe it by any further proof of Fathers Contrary to expresse words of their owne Bible Mat. 18. 10 Therefore they had their Angell-keeper This very passage Saint Cyril of Alexandria Lib. 4. con Iulian. applieth to our Angel-keeper See more Acts 12. 14. 1. Cor. 11. 10. Contrary to expresse words in your owne Bibles Zach. 1. 9 10 11. Now what I pray you is a praier if this be not Contrary to their owne Bible That this was spoken to a true Angell and not to Christ Basil l. 3. c. Eunomium S. Chrys ho. 7. in laud. S. Pauli and vpon 1. of Col. and S. Hier. vpon 66 of Esay Which beeing so who for shame can say He prayed not vnto him See Fathers that affirme what hath beene said touching Angels For some such my self haue met with Therefore Saints deceased haue appearea to some on earth At Saint August witnesseth Lib. de cura mortis cap. 14. Nor can any be so senslesse as to say they pray for them selues Contrary to their owne Bible If an Horse or an Asse should pray c. Where note that Theodoret paraphrasing vpon Baruch interpreteth this very place as Catholiques doo Now is the Sunne more cleare than that Saints pray for vs Iob 1. 5. 〈◊〉 S. August himself expounds this very place as Catholiques doo in his Annot. vpon Iob. If it had not been the common custome in the time of Iob to inuocate the Saints deceased it had bin friuâ—lous for Eliphas to haue asked Iob to which of the Saints he wou'd t 〈…〉 See more Contrarie to expresse words of their owne Bibles In second of Kings but is the 4 by the account of Catholiques 13. 21. S. Chrysost To. 5. cont Gentil quòd Christus sit Deus in an whole Booke proues heerby and by the like vertue of other Saints that Christ their Lord and Master is God whose seruants napkins and shadows could do such wonders Are they not therefore fooles and blind that keepe such a â—ooting at Holy-bread Hooker Poor Protestant whither now is thy figure fled See Fathers that affirm the same S. Ignat. in his Epist ad Smyr Iustin Mar. Apol. 2. ad Antoninum Now say the truth and shame the Diuell are not they sick in their wits which will oppose such plaine Scriptures Deuter. 23. 22. Psal 66. 13. Psal 19. 11. 1. Tim. Math. 5. 12. Ier. 35. 5. Therefore it is grounded c. Contrary to their owne Bibles These freed Captiues cannot bee the soules of the Saued which no man in his right wits can call Captiues nor of the damned for so the diuels should be brought again into heauen Therefore they were the soules of the Fathers which Christ deliuered out of hell Acts 2. 27. Which very words Saint August applieth to the paint of Purgatory and addeth Who but an Infidel will deny Christ to haue descended into hell Ep. 99. ad Euodium Saint Ambrose Ser. 20 in Psal 118. Saint Hierome vpon 4 of Amos Saint August vpon the 37 Psal Saint Gregory lib. 4. Dial. explicate this very place of Purgatory Heb. 9. 1. 5. Lo Saint Paul calleth the pictures of the Cherubins which Salomon made an Ordinance of diuine Seruice which Protestants call the making of Idols who now shall we beleeue whether S. Paul or a Protestant When painting and grauing of 〈◊〉 tures is so farre from beeing Idolatry that it is prooued to be a Science diuinely infused by God himself Contrary to expresse words of their owne Bible and he said Draw not nigh hither c. Lo how cleer a place is produced heer against Protestants where an insensible â—reature without reason was commanded by God himselfe to be honored Now the principal reason why the Arke was worshipped was in regard of the Images that were vpon it which as S. Ierom saith the lewes did worship in his Ep. ad Marcellan Num. 21. 8. Hence are euidently prooued diuers things against Protestants c. See Fathers that affirme the same Saint Ambrose Ser. 1. in Psal 118. Where first our Lord hauing taught his owne Disciples that excellent Prayer of all praiers which hee would haue them to offer to him the Pater noster or our Lords Praier hee afterwards in many other places willeth them to pray alwaies as Luke 18. 1. The Angels in the Prophet Esay Esay 6. and the beasts in the Apoc. Apo. 4. which rest neither dâ—y nor night do thrice repeat c.
there is none So that the Holy ghost is made to speake plaine non-sense to fit a turne for a Catholique cause This may stand and yet the Protestants assersion be not infeebled He expounded vnto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himselfe For they doe not deny but that some things are hard That other cannot stand For it implieth that all things are hard So we haue obseruable a pretty niggling tricke of a false knaue a small word In left out to marre all For with In the text is for this and no more Some things in Scripture needed exposition and therefore were hard But without In though there be no Sense but what simple Proselyte attendeth to that the implication is All Scriptures need Interpretation and so are all hard which the good Catholique beleeueth not himselfe dareth not auouch yet faine would haue his nouice take it so to traduce the tenent of the Protestants that some Scriptures are open and easie Thus in the very in-steppe of his stolen pamphlet he belyeth the Protestant for his opinion abuseth the Scripture to bolster his Forgery and yet for all that fighteth onely with his owne fancy as dogges by moone-light barke at their owne shadowes To your question then inferred vpon the premises I answere first As easie to be vnderstood of the vnlearned now as of them then who were none of the Learned ones at that time and had incident impediments at that time Secondly scriptures hard then vnto them may be and are easie now without any such Interpretation For one Day teacheth another and especially in Predictions as these all were that is after easie which at first was hard If now they be not easie there is no explicite faith implicite faith must saue all Sir Gagger whosoeuer you are know that Scripture is not all of one height depth or alloy Some was hard that now is easie Some easie now and euer Some yet hard but not for euer To be vnderstood but not in the way only in visione faciei when wee shall see face to face and know God as we are knowne and some points at least explicitely not now to bee vnderstood nor yet then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it was a secret a mystery saith Basil of Seleucia at the beginning shall neuer cease to be a mystery In some point or other the worke of our Redemption in Christ he meaneth See more who list they shall see nothing to purpose No Scripture saith Saint Peter is of priuate motion or Interpretation as you will Ergo what All Scripture is hard Teach me this Consequence and I will thanke you for my New-Logicke This I doe see where the Scripture is hard and needeth interpretation there that Spirit which dictated it at first must direct in the vnderstanding it at last For man is permitted to expound himselfe and best can giue his owne meaning So this Text is not to proue that Scripture is hard but to proue that in Case there be a Doubt we are not to addresse vnto priuate Fancies or peculiar opinions but to the Direction of Gods Spirit and that in the Church I subscribe Math. 13. 11. 36. it is remembred that Christ taught the People in Parables Well what if he did Why a Parable is a darke kinde of speech so that there is obscurity in the Scriptures I answer No man denyeth but there is obscurity No man denieth but Parables are obscure Some not all In some things not in all Those Parables were obscure admit it that are remembred there but they are not all the Parables that are in Scripture Nor are Parables the hundreth part of Scripture and many of them are of easie vnderstanding and many are expounded where proposed and when vnderstood best remembred most beneficiall to the Hearer Luke 24. 45. Then opened hee their vnderstandings that they might vnderstand the Scripture which act of our Sauiour vnto and vpon his Disciples at that time slow of heart may rather excite vnto then detar from the Reading of the Scriptures For that which hee did to them personally he will doe vnto all mediately and doth it vnto the simplest actually of those that are interessed in him though but by a generall tye For the poorest member of the Church doth now vnderstand that which he taught them that he was the Messiah the Promised seede according vnto Prophecies and Predictions of old then hard now easie 1 Cor. 12. 8. Saint Paul speaking of diuersity of guifts saith To one is giuen by the spirit the word of wisdome to another the word of knowledge by the same spirit which words are as much against vnderstanding Scriptures hard by interpretation as Scriptures easie with interpretation For those that haue it haue it by guift immediate by God without helpe or instruction Those that haue it not by warrant of this place and goe no further cannot haue it at all because these things remembred were all of Infusion of extraordinary indowment and so singular and peculiar Againe admit it in common course yet it is rather a warrant for facility of Scripture because there are designed Expositors or if for difficulty because expositors are needfull yet this difficulty is but in some to some not vniuersall of which we must be vnderstood and of no other if wee be rightly taken Luke 18. 34. The Disciples vnderstood none of those things Doth it follow they vnderstood not any thing in the Law or Prophets which were the Scriptures of those times If you cannot read a letter in Cipher can you not read a plaine letter in Italique hand Those things beside that they were not then written and so no part of Scripture and so not to purpose were particular and personall and not performed Now they are performed now they are in Scripture now easie to be vnderstood of all without Expositors the Sufferings of our Sauiour at Ierusalem To them then they were hidden are they now to you Catholikes Doe you not know Christ suffered at Ierusalem If you doe not I grant Scripture is hard and hidden but hidden vnto those that perish onely because they will hud-winke themselues and not see Not a Lixa Calo or Agaso not a shepheard or muleter but doth or else may know this now which then was a secret not knowen vnto many many particulars not vnto the blessed Virgin her selfe such difference there is in things wrought by time so little wisdome to take things at all times alike and to conclude alike Indeed the same that is the thing in question as little as those Texts doe and to as little purpose as those texts doe Irenaeus Lib. 2. 47. Hauing insisted vpon and instanced in obscurity in Gods word in Nature he proceedeth vnto Gods word in Scripture thus Si ergo in rebus creaturae quaedam quidem eorum adiacent Deo quaedam autem in nostram venerunt scientiam quid mali est si et eorum quae in scripturis requiruntur vniuersis
scripturis spiritualibus existentibus quaedam quidem absoluamus secundum gratiam Dei quaedam ante commendemus Deo If so be in the workes of Creation some keepe close vnto God in secret some are apprehended and vnderstood by vs what hurt or inconuenience is it if in Scripture all Scripture being spirituall there be something contayned which through assistance of Gods grace we can goe through with and againe some thing that we must leaue vnto God Iust the doctrine of the Protestants that some things may bee vnderstood some things past our vnderstanding Non solum in hoc saeculo so it followeth there sed et in futuro Not onely in this world but that to come that God may euer teach man euer learne of God The waters of Silo some where runne pleasantly and may be passed in other some places not foordable Origen singeth the same Protestant song and that in moe places then one of his bookes against Celsus as lib. 5. twise hom 14. vpon Exodus and other where The place you meane lib. 7. contra Celsum I thinke is this For you could not tell whereabout or what it was because your good founder C. W. B. failed you Celsus being a Pagan and an Epicure as happily you are made the same obiection I am sure which you doe now pag. 345. edit Graec-Lat that the Scripture was obscure and vncertaine the sense and meaning not to be found out by wise men so that the ignorant and indiscreet abused it at pleasure More then which no liuing Iesuite could haue said No Protestant would answere a Iesuite otherwise then Origen doth vnto that Pagan Celsus Certe ipsi Prophetae quicquid erat opus mox ab Auditoribus intelligi et quicquid ad corrigendos mores faciebat absque vllis involucris proposuerunt ijs ita vt Deus voluit The Prophets themselues expounded to their Auditors anon whatsoeuer was for them to be vnderstood and whatsoeuer serued to make them good men that they proposed vnto them as Gods will was they should plainly without obscurity at al. Had the Protestants feed him hee could not haue spoken more fully and to purpose in their cause and yet he proceedeth to declare why Figures Parables and Allegories are vsed therein a long discourse to purpose pag. 345. See him that will It is not denied Saint Ambrose Ep. 44. to Constantius compareth the holy scriptures vnto a Sea and calleth them a depth of Propheticall riddles Mare est scriptura diuina habens in se sensus profundos altitudinem Propheticorum aenigmatum in quod mare plurima introierunt flumina But not all scripture in his opinion is that Sea onely Propheticall riddles are that Sea beside which diuersa sunt scripturarū fluenta as he addeth diuers streames brooks shallowes and currents be in the scripture Habes quod primū bibas habes quod secundum habes quod postremum Scripture fitted to euery capacity I know no Protestant that wil aske more Saint Hierome is next who out of Bellarmines obseruations could haue afforded vs three places moe and more materiall from whence this mans director tooke his store and rather should he haue taken any testimony then this if he vnderstood the credit of his witnesse For the commentaries vpon the Epistles extant vnder Saint Hicromes name be none of his but are the Collections of Pelagius the Hereticke as not Protestants say but Papists of name and note Catharme Senensis Pererius Bellarmine and Victorius Marianus Such an aduocate we neede not enuie our aduersary Much good may Pelagius the Heretickes testimony doe him But let him passe for Saint Hierome there is not any thing to purpose spoken by him That which he saith is this He had studied the Scriptures much and long had conference with diuers learned men all his time about the sense thereof and had purposely vndertaken a iourney vnto Didymus at Alexandria vt ab eo in scripturis omnibus quae habebam dubia sciscitarer Therefore what First this Didymus at least vnderstood all scripture or how could he resolue all the doubts of scripture what needed Hierome to haue gone so long a iourney vnto him therfore scripture al of it is to be vnderstood Secondly vnto Hierome all scripture was not hard he proposed vnto him the doubts he had which implyeth they were not infinite not all scripture obscure or doubted of therefore thirdly this proueth the Protestant opinion true that the Scriptures are some of them easie enough to be vnderstood Saint August Ep. 119. cap. 21. saith somewhat more For he descendeth vnto Comparison and saith The things of holy scripture which I know not are many moe then those which I know Such was his humility to say so like vnto Saint Paul in the same case who knew nothing and yet your selfe Sir a man of lesse skill then Saint Augustine not to be named the same day with him if you should goe and make a list of the particular verses in the scripture which you vnderstand and of those you vnderstand not I doe not doubt but those would be more then these and yet further these being so he might iustly and truely say so of all almost For of one and the same place there may be moe senses then one yea euen literall senses and intended by the holy Ghost so that knowing one sense perhaps primary and naturall he may be ignorant of the other and thus all Scripture may be hard Saint August opinion was indeed no other then our opinion is as appeareth in Ep. 100. to Volusianus Tanta est Christianarum profunditas literarū c. Such and so great is the depth of Christian scriptures that I might still euery day learne and profit by them informe my selfe of that I know not before if so bee that at most leysure with my vtmost paines and trauell indowed with as good a wit as any man can haue I should set my selfe to learne them and them alone from my very infancy to decrepite age Hitherto Saint August in appearance for the Papist now insueth for the Protestant Not s◠but that the things absolutely necessary to Saluation are compassed with much losse difficulty and vnderstood But when a man hath once resolued his Faith in them without which no man can liue well and godlily those men that will goe forward with greater proficiency shall meete with so many things in such wise shadowed with mysticall meanings so great proofe and depth of wisedome therein couched not onely in the words which set forth the things vnto vs and to our vnderstanding but also in the things vnderstood Insomuch as that auncient students of pregnant wit of vnwearied pains doe find it verrified in themselues here which the same scripture hath in a certaine place Sirac 18. 7. When a man hath done then is he to beginne So truly doth Saint August resolue for either opposite part who haue shared the Truth betwixt them This was the doctrine once euen of
the Roman Church For Saint Gregory vpon the 6. of Ezechiel said If the vnderstanding of holy scripture were playne to all men it would come in time to bee of no reckoning Where hee giueth a reason of that obscurity that is in it Who yet vpon the 6. of Iob more atfull interpreteth his owne meaning thus Sacra scriptura cibus est in locis obscurioribus quia quasi exponendo frangitur et mandendo glutitur Potus vero est in locis apertioribus quià ita sorbetur sicut invenitur The holy Scripture is Meate in the more obscure places because in the expounding thereof it is broken as it were and in chewing swallowed Drinke it is in the more perspicuous places because it is as easily swallowed downe as it is found Thus the doctrine and beliefe of the Roman Church was sometime Scripture in some places is hard in some places easie Hath that Church now forsaken her former faith if not we differ not for we maintaine the easinesse of holy Scripture no otherwise then Saint Gregory the Pope did This Goose may fit the Gagge for his Ganders mouth the Gospell will soone enough be rid of it II. That in matters of faith wee must not relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and of her Pastors but onely vpon the written Word I Know no such tenent exclusiuely I know no such Assertion negatiuely the Church of England hath no such faith as this You set vp a Shawfoule for a marke and shoot your bolt at it your selfe alone In our 11. Article put on your spectacles and see if you can reade it we professe The Church hath authority in controuersies of Faith The written word of God is the Rule of Faith with vs. And hath beene so with all our Fathers of old Vnto the Law and vnto the Prophets was a direction of a perpetuall Morallity and is continued in that of our Sauiour Ioh. 5. Search the Scriptures for in them you hope to haue eternall life A rule absolute in it selfe a rule most sufficient vnto vs for that end entended To make the man of God perfect in euery good worke Sufficiunt sanctae et diuinitus inspiratae scripturae saith Athanasius ad omnem institutionem veritatis Truth is of two sorts amongst men manifest and confessed truth or more obscure and inuolued truth In his quae aperte posita sunt in scripturis inveniâ—ntur illa omnia quae continent fidem moresque viuendi spem scilicet charitatem Plainely deliuered in Scripture are all those poynts which belong vnto Faith and manners Hope and Charity to wit And accordingly I doe know no obscurity vpon these I know none of these controuerted inter partes the Articles of our Creede are confessed on both sides and held plaine enough The controuerted poynts are of a larger and an inferiour alloy of them a man may be ignorant without any danger of his soule at all A man may resolue or oppose this way or that way without perill of perishing for euer Now if a question be moued iuris controuersi in controuerted matters who shall decide and settle the doubt you say The Church and so say I nay so say we You say wee say the Scriptures but without the Church that is each priuate mans opinion and interpretation of the Scriptures euen against the Church No such thing Sir you mistake vs. We say the Church must doe it explaining declaring resoluing the Scriptures as the direction is from God himselfe to purpose Deut. 17. 8. and as your Texts and Fathers doe pretend it and no otherwise And yet the Scripture may well be called iudge As the Law determineth Controuersies betwixt man and man In plaine cases iuris positiui no deciding Iudge or legall proceeding shall neede But such as are iuris ambigui controuersi must be determined by the Court by the Iudge according vnto Law So is it in Scripture according to the Protestants opinion In points of Faith they disclaime not the iudgement of the Church nor yet appeale to Scripture alone vnderstood by themselues without a iudge but referre it vnto the Church And they haue reason for it enough seeing Gods Word and the ancient practise of the Catholike Church that is both Law and Iudge are both for them In the name of the Church of England I will be tried thereby and maintaine it against all Papists liuing Take one for all Cyril of Hierusalem in his fourth Catechisme saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In any poynt concerning the diuine and holy mysteries of our Faith not any the least thing must be tendred without warrant of diuine Scripture And he addeth Belieue mee not that speake and deliuer these things vnto you vnlesse for proofe of them I doe bring plaine and euident demonstration out of diuine Writ Was this man a Protestant or a Papist Those Bibles he had then which we haue now and it seemeth that addressing his owne beliefe and doctrine accordingly varied not in iudgement any whit from vs who make Scripture the rule of our beliefe And in doubtfull poynts that require determination appeale vnto the Catholique Church for iudgement in that Rule This is not contrary to any deduction from much lesse to the expresse words of our owne Bible Matt. 23. 2. The Scribes Pharises sit in Moses Chaire all therfore whatsoeuer they bid you obserue that obserue and doe Therefore c. Doe you finde eyther Faith or Iudgement Pastors or Church expresly named in this text Looke once more and looke back vpon your vndertaking Their refutation by expresse words of their owne bible For words expresse you faile vndertaking more than you can performe an ordinary tricke of Catholike Braggadochioes Let vs see if Consequents will hold the tewghing any better Those that answere the Church and her Pastors in your Thesis are the Scribes Pharises in your proofe who whole and some head and taile be Doctors and Pastors of the Church with you But of the Church of Rome it must be supposed for wee disclaime any Conformation at all with them And doe you suppose that our Sauiour approued them so well as that hee would haue had the Iewes in matters of Faith to relye vpon them and their decisions as Pastors of the Church in points of Faith If this were his meaning what meant he then to giue warning elsewhere Take heede of the leauen of the Pharises that is as the holy Ghost expoundeth it Of their doctrine If the question had bin put Art thou the Christ would he haue sent them vnto the Scribes or Pharises for resolution or aduised the people to belieue on them we finde it not practised the contrary we doe What then is this text in consequence vnto the poynt Surely hee meant no more but this and in that hee will declare himselfe a Protestant Whatsoeuer they bid you obserue out of Moses obserue that is so long as they teach but Scripture they must he heard if there they faile
feare to doe the like as hee that offendeth against the common order of the Church hurteth the authoritie of the magistrate and woundeth the consciences of the weake Loe Traditions not onely auowed but maintained the infringers censured So that but reade ouer your Position againe That Apostolicall traditions and auncient customes of the holy Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige vs compare that with this decision and then giue your Catholike honesty the lye Euery particular or national Church hath authority to ordaine to change and abolish ceremonies or Rites of the Church ordained onely by mans authoritie so that all things be done vnto edification Nor is this against your Catholique Doctrine or practise and yet this is all that our Church deliuereth touching traditions in their publique authorised receiued constitutions Priuate opinions if there be any tye vs no more then they doe you Nay we deale more sincerely and positiuely than you doe distinguishing Traditions for plainenesse sake whereas your Fathers of Trent giue this onely in commaund That Traditions be receiued as the Scripture playing fast and loose in ambigiuous termes not differencing humane diuine Apostolicall Apotacticall Christian Paganish generall particular free of necessity temporary or permanent Traditions Can you or any Papist defend this The Popish Doctrine thus deliuered is not onely contrary to expresse words of your owne Bibles but to pietie and religion to sense and reason that any idle fantasticke foolish impious prophane humane inuention for your words runne generally and extend to all should be receiued as Holy Scripture but the protestant doctrine declared as before is not contrary to expresse words of our Bibles 2 Thessal 2. 15. Therefore Brethren stand fast and hold the traditions which yee haue receiued whether by word or by our Epistle Therefore c. Wee deny not obedience vnto this exhortation but indeauour to stand fast in the word of truth and hold fast all those Traditions which Saint Paul deliuered either by word or writing All Protestants giue due respect to such diuine authority Shew any that doth not and you say somewhat But good Sir Gagger Hee that refuseth those manifold botcheries and brokerages of your Romish Church and casteth them off as impious and ridiculous doth not streight transgresse this Apostolicall direction no more than he that reiecteth a counterfeit Passe made by some jarkman vnder an hedge for a Rogue doth resist lawfull authority Proue your Tradition such as you pretend then see what we will say vnto you 2 Thessal 3. 6. Now we command you brethren in the name of the Lord Iesus Christ that you withdraw you selues from euery brother that walketh disorderly and not after the Tradition he receiued of vs. Which we receiue and obey But Tradition may runne for Example here in effect not according to our example And so Saint Chrysostome vpon the place or it may be something extant also in writing or order prescribed them by the Apostle temporary and occasionall or of morall dispensation If you can name it wee will not refuse for our conclusion differerh not from yours Traditions are to be receiued and doe oblige vs but you must let vs know them and their credite first 1 Cor. 11. 2. I praise you brethren saith the Apostle that you remember mee in all things and keepe the Traditions as I haue deliuered them vnto you So hee would vs were hee now liuing so would hee not you that haue broken them for that which hee deliuered vnto them that hee receiued of the Lord 1 Cor. 11. 23. and that which hee receiued was touching the whole intire communion the Cups as well as the Bread you haue broken this Tradition through your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and presumptions But can you resolue mee what Tradition hee meaneth heere perhaps they were Temporall and not intended for vs. If such your owne rule is They oblige not It may be no vnwritten Traditions but the written word at least such things as be written now Howsoeuer the allegation is not to purpose for it doth not proue what the Protestants deny and that which it proueth they deny not That Traditions are to be kept 2 Timoth. 2. 2. Where there is no expresse mention of Traditions but onely of things receiued from Saint Paul by which Traditions peraduenture not written are meant and peraduenture things written who can tell whether these or those shew them and we refuse them not Iohn 20. 30. and 21 25. are both to one purpose Tradition is in neither text expressed nor to be collected from either for neither text is for Tradition both one other intimate no more but that all which Christ did or said is not recorded in the Gospels Doth any ideot belieue the contrary This fellow might begge vs if wee said or taught that Christ did nor said any thing but that is written Till then himselfe may be begged for a foole that would put vpon vs this vnhandsome beliefe All that Christ did or said is not written therefore any thing must be receiued that is pretended to be Tradition Apostolicall or Diuine 1 Cor. 11. 34. Paul saith The rest I will set in order when I come Therefore you may goe learne to bake a batch of Bread or goe drinke an health to the Vicar of St. Fooles with your Host of Holborne The inference is Saint Paul had not ordered all till hee came when hee came hee made good his promise and set all things in order at Corinth therefore any thing though neuer so absurd which Papists pretend as Tradition must be receiued as Gods word 1 Timoth. 6. 2. Saint Paul saith nothing of Tradition except these words will beare out Tradition These things teach and exhort which things are written not vnwritten For These things doe designe things there remembred Saint Iohn 2. Epist 12. saith He had many things to write vnto them which hee would not commit to paper but come himselfe and teach them by word of mouth which hee repeateth Ep. 3. vers 13. Therefore hee wrote not all things vnto them And who saith hee did therefore what our Gagger is a goose no other sequell and so hee must stand vntill hee shew that some of his Romish Traditions were part of that which Saint Iohn would not write vnto them but teach them by word of mouth Act. 16. 4. and 15. 28. Wee reade of no Traditions wee doe of Decrees ordayned in the Councell at Ierusalem but the mischiefe is they are written and yet so our Gagger and his Comerades keepe them not For tell mee did you neuer eate a Goose or her pudding Capon Hen or Chickens at your Bottle-Ale house in Partridge-Ally if not there nor otherwhere I haue nothing to say to you But if so I returne it to your teethe you belie vs in that which you doe your selues The Traditions Apostolicall and auncient customes of the holy Church oblige you not For among these Decrees or as you will
Pharises doe your Church 1 Pet. 2. 9. The Church is styled a chosen generation a royall Priesthood an holy nation a peculiar people glorious titles but nothing to this They cannot erre Iohn 17. 17. Gods word is truth I graunt But is Gods Word euer in the mouth of man The Apostles were sanctified and that in Gods truth according vnto Christs Prayer Yet after this Prayer Peter went not right when Saint Paul reproued him he fell and that foulely in denying Christ That which is sanctified is accepted not euer so sanctified as without spot As for 1 Cor. 11. 25. if the Institution or rather Commemoration of the institution of the holy Communion be a proofe sufficient that the Church cannot erre wee yeeld the cause if nothing to purpose what meant this idle pate to range it heere What the man would say in Psalm 101. 23. 20. or whether hee would send vs after mistaking there I cannot tell and till then I cannot answere For not so much as neere thereabout is ought to purpose of not erring Ephes 2. 20. Wee reade that they were built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets And what then Could they not erre Dare you say so They could for they haue and are shaken off from that foundation but so long as they stood on fast they erred not holding one Faith one Lord one Baptisme Eph. 4. 5. which if you and we doe at this day by your owne argument auoid it if you can we erre not As for one heart and one soule of the belieuers Act. 4. 32. it is in reference of loue one to another not in vnity of Doctrine all with one another And yet there were differences in that vnion for example sake inter Paul and Barnabas and might be disproportion in their Doctrine as dissimilitude in the habitude and condition of those sheepe in one sheepe-fold vnder one Shepheard and yet all heare the Shepheards voyce Iohn 10. 16. and hee that will not heare some of those Sheepe Luc. 10. 16. be taxed for not regarding the Shepheard when as yet for all that some of those Sheepe be gone astray To conclude The Church cannot erre neither collectiue nor representatiue Thus your Masters distinguish the termes of this question that goe workman-like and not like you clutteringly to worke So they so wee In the largest extent not erre at all Secondly not erre in poynts of Faith For in matters of fact they confesse errour Faith is fundamentall or accessory There none is here error may accrew Fathers to be seene you afford vs none Not because there are none but because your reading could supply none Who take vp all vpon retaile and credit hauing so small store at home The Church cannot erre is most true and the Church may erre is as true each part considered as it ought V. That the Church hath beene hidden and inuisible IT may be some priuate opinions haue runne vpon inuifibility of the Church which are no doctrinall decisions nor to be imputed vnto the resolued Doctrine of the Protestants that are of another minde Nunquam est quod nusquam videtur That which cannot be seene if it be seeable is no where at all nor in being For as Saint Augustine well said Quo modo confidimus ex diuinis liter is accepisse nos Christum manifestum si non accepimus Ecclesiam manifestam How is it possible wee should hope to haue Christ manifest in Scripture except wee haue likewise the Church manifest Therefore on all hands it is resolued the Church hath euer beene visible since there was a Church In England especially how can this fellow impute inuisibility to vs who claime and proue a succession and therefore needes a visibilitie from the time of the Apostles If any doe thinke otherwise or cannot doe this we vndertake no patronage at all of them The Church is a City seated on a Hill which is naturally visible though in a fogge or mist not discerned There euer was and will be a Church vnto whom complaints may be made though the Church doth not euer heare complaints Those that haue fell vpon an inuisibility may perhaps be tollerated if well interpreted and vnderstood For euen the visible Church in her more noble parts may be said to be inuisible First the Saints triumphant and now regnant with Christ are parts of the Church in largest extent Who being in Heauen are vnknowne their persons proprieties and indowments The Saints militant her more excellent parts on Earth according to her more royall indowments the Elect according vnto purpose of Grace are knowne onely vnto God alone the searcher of secrets and decipherer of thoughts Such as be secret occultò intus are there not visible vnto man In this sence in regard of these parts the Church is and is esteemed inuisible and so held euen of the Papists themselues Otherwise then so wee doe not speake of inuisibility So that the man must fall foule with his owne part or be at warre with his owne wits Moderate men on both sides confesse this controuersie may cease Et quamuis praesens haec Ecclesia Romana non parum in morum disciplinae integritate adde etiam in doctrinae sinceritate ab antiquâ illâ vnde orta deriuata est discesserit tamen eodem fundamento doctrinae sacramentorum à Deo institutorum firma semper constitit communionem cum antiquâ illâ indubitatâ Christi Ecclesiâ agnoscit colit Quare alia diuersa ab illâ esse non potest tametsi multis in rebus dissimulis sit Manet enim Christi Ecclesia sponsa quamuis multis erroribus vitijs sponsum suum irritauerit quamdiu à Christo suo sponso non repudietur tametsi multis fâ—agellis ab ipso castigetur As for our Gagger hee is interessed happely otherwise In standeth him in hand to vphold and foment a faction lest for insufficiency otherwise hee turne Host and sell Bottle-Ale That mustie obiection as hee calleth it of Elias may doe him some pleasure at that time I adde no more touching this proposition because it is but lost labour VI. That it is forbidden in holy Scripture the publique seruice of the Church to be in a tongue not vnderstood of all the Assistants NO doubt Contrary to our owne Bibles in such sort that if the Protestants be not gagged now their mouthes are wider than Gargantuaes and their lips somewhat like to Germans that were nine mile asunder Certes neuer so foyled by texts of Scripture since Luther went out to this day Therefore expedite tabulas Chrysippei sophi For heere you haue a singular piece of worke indeede The Church of England directed not onely by the light of Israel the Word of God but also perswaded by common sense and reason hath and hath had her Seruice the publique prayers and Liturgie of the Church in a knowne tongue vnderstood of all that are present there ordinarily This is contrary to their
performe what seruice in his course was determined and assigned by Lot It fell to Zachary to burne Incense as to others to offer Sacrifice Now the Temple of Ierusalem had diuers diuisions as wee haue in our Churches Isles Chauncels Reuestries These were seuered by Vayles Trauerses or Walles The first was the Sanctuary or most holy Place No People or Priest went in thither at all but onely one once a yeere and no oftner then once that one day the high Priest and no other man The second was called the holy Place the Altar of Incense stood there whereat the Priests offered Incense vnto God in their Courses as Zachary here did and nothing else neither reading the Law nor expounding of it nor teaching the People nor praying with them nor saying any deuotions for them it was no Custome or part of Seruice there A third diuision was atrium sacerdotum the body of the Church into which none came but onely Priests and they to offer Sacrifice onely The People came not so high but into a fourth Court atrium populi or mundorum in which they were praying at that present So betwixt the place in which Zachary offered Incense which was seuered by a vayle and that place in which the People prayed there was some distance what maruell if the People could not heare him But as is touched they needed not for he was not to read expound or say any part of Seruice within but onely to burne Incense and no more There were that taught them beside they did it in the place for the purpose in the Peoples Court and in that tongue which the People vnderstood So our Sauiour taught in the Synagogues and in the Temple being vnderstood and Moses was read in the same forme and Language that euery one vnderstood If it had beene added that the People were praying in Latin Greeke or in some other exoticke Language this Tale-teller had noted somewhat to purpose This which he saith and noteth iâ— as much to purpose as mother Bumly hitting a Hen in the forehead Leuit. 16. 17. And there shall be no man in the Tabernacle of the Congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place vntill hee conuent and haue made an atonement for himselfe for his Houshold and for all the Congregation of Israel Therefore Conclude Aron must goe in alone For of Aron and his Successors is this spoken When he goeth he must goe alone Now what is this to purpose Therefore it is not forbidden in holy Scripture that the publike seruice of the Church should be in an vnknowne tongue A poke full a plummes no foote nor foote-steps of such an inference at least let vs haue it with this exception vnlesse at one time onely of the yeere for onely once what the high Priest hither But to purpose This Text is to no purpose For there must be Assistants where the Seruice is in an vnknowen tongue and here Assistants are shut out of doores It is precise There shall be no man in the Tabernacle when he goeth in If no man there no seer no hearer present then what neede we talke of tongues either vnderstood or not vnderstood Secondly the Textis to no purpose For it speaketh but of a peece of Iewish seruice and of such a peece as was performed by hands onely without lippes or tongue and then it was priuate betwixt God and the Priest Priests nor People were Agents or Assistants at it Let your morrow Massmungers when they masse it alone vse Iaponian or Mexico Language if they list and when they make priuate intercession vnto God speake in any of the Dialects that were at Babel but in the publique Seruice of the Church Piety and Practice reason and Religion require a tongue that is vnderstood of the Assistants that they may say Amen to what is spoken It is a tricke of vanity an idle flourish What shall I neede to produce authorities of Fathers when the practice of the Christian World for many hundred yeeres together is contrary vnto Protestants A very strange practice of which there is no Constat let but one Father say so and I yeeld the bucklers Inopem te copia fecit Such plenty you haue as hath made you poore If you name me one Father that thought so or wrote so I will goe with you to Masse to morrow and acknowledge Pope Vrban for absolute Monarch directly ouer all the Earth I can but laugh at your insolent and impudent folly that blush not to write What neede I produce authority of Fathers I say againe doe name me but one that squinteth that way nedum that saith it positiuely That the seruice of the Church hath beene or may be in a tongue vnknowne and haue with you to Masse next morrow VII That Saint Peter was not first or chiefe amongst the Apostles and that none was greater or lesser amongst the twelue First or chiefe how ignorantly spoken as if two words of one signification First and Chiefe are not euer of equall extent Ruben was the first but Iuda chiefe First and Chiefe in some things are not euer so in all Peter was first but Iohn chiefe in respect of Christs speciall and peculiar affection to him aboue the rest of the Apostles It is graunted Peter was first called to be an Apostle though not first to be a Disciple In rancke and reckoning wee graunt him first As in your first Text of Matth. 10. 2. No Protestant liuing will deny this nor fall so foule with their owne Bible perswade not your selfe they will doe so But this precedency will neither serue your turne nor content you Another chiefedome must be cast vpon which you collect by sequell for you haue it not expresse out of Luke 22. 32. and 26. and yet at last you fleete backe to his first-ship in place Peter is euer named first Thus you are not resolued what to haue and how can your Proselites tell in what to trust you but that you leade them hoodwinked by the nose Luke 22. 26. The words is greatest is chiefe doe euidently shew that among the twelue one was indeede ter than another and so accounted by Christ himselfe Proue that by Christ himselfe Those words insisted on doe not proue it for they may be an Irony or a Concession Admit there be greater or lesser amongst you yet hee that is greatest let him be thus or thus He that thinketh so highly of himselfe yet let him doe thus But let it be euident and graunted that one was greater than another amongst them this greatnesse yet is farre short of that transcendent greatnesse giuen to Saint Peter Let Saint Peter be the man inuested with that greatnesse yet quousque What bounds and limitation had it since the greatest greatnesse vnder Sunne is not without some circumscription It is not questioned whether Saint Peter were great whether the greatest among those great ones Wee graunt it but the controuersie is about the extent and
recouered after his fall and perseuered vnto the end Our Sauiour said not to him thou shalt not deny mee but That thy faith fayle not and that his faith did not eternally fayle it was out of his speciall fauour vnto him and care of him saith Chrysostome hom 83. in Math. This is the prime true and literall meaning of the Text euen in the opinion of your owne Partiaries that Christs prayer was personall for Saint Peter restrained vnto Saint Peter alone which being so first setled and acknowledged Peter may be said in a secondary sense to sustaine the person of the whole Catholique Church in which sense many and they no Protestants doe vnderstand it And so his Faith that is the Faith of the Church fayled not either totally or finally no not in the greatest eclipse that euer was because Christ was euer heard in that which he prayed for and he prayed for the Church The refiners of Popery the quintessense of villany the Iesuites haue inuented a third sense to fit the purpose more than the former This promise was made say they to Peter not personally but as Pope And therein was inferred thereby assurance made that the Pope neuer did neuer should neuer could maintaine decide hold belieue any thing against Faith A thing not heard of but out of such mouthes a late dayes False in euent for their faith hath failed totally finally vtterly for euer False according to themselues and their other resolutions For Peter was not Bishop much lesse Pope when our Sauiour Christ prayed for him insomuch as by inchoation when hee denied Christ saith Bellarmine And good reason for his saying so lest his successours might fall into the same predicament His principality in and ouer the Church was not inuested in him vntill after our Sauiours Resurrection Thus hee de Rom. Pontif. 4. 8. therefore hee did not pray for him as Pope Therefore Bellarmine contradicteth himselfe and is contrary to his companions Therefore this prater gagleth hee knoweth not what against his owne rules and against his Masters As also out of Matth. 16. 18. The gates of Hell shall not preuaile against it It What Saint Peters Faith Was the Church therefore built vpon Saint Peters Faith Take heede of that It is the Church not his Faith nor his Person nor his Papacy But let it for once be his Faith I answere there is a twofold preuayling against First to ouercome So Iosua in fight preuayled against Amalec by the signe of the Crosse rather than the sword Secondly a preuayling against to destroy So did Saul preuaile against the same Amalec The Gates of Hell did not preuayle against Peters Faith to vndoe it For being lapsed hee recouered and mightily preuayled against them They did preuaile against it to ouercome him For he forswore and denyed his Master The Faith of Marcellinus and Liberius fayled but they recouered as Saint Peter did The Faith of Honorius and Iohn 12 fayled happely hee recanted before his death and so his Faith did not fayle finally But Iohn 12. liued and dyed in his Faith that is in his Sinne and so Body and Soule went to the Diuell Saint Peters Faith fayled onely for a time Of this speake the Protestants His Faith fayled Saint Peters faith did not finally or irrecouerably fall Thus intended our Sauiour in that saying I haue prayed that thy Faith fayle not But Sir it mattereth not much what became of his Faith His Person is the thing to be stood vpon his Power Principality Papall Prerogatiues seated therein this I trow is so cleare in holy Scriptures no great neede to fortifie it by or from the Fathers and yet I maruaile why if so cleare there wee haue so few Texts of holy Scriptures for it onely two Texts nay scarcely that For one of these is cleare for another thing And againe whatsoeuer you vaunt of Fathers needelesse to be brought it is more than presumption you had not one Father to fling at this Faith not fayling For when you haue them you spare them not IX That a Woman may be supreame Gouernesse of the Church in all Causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall as Queene Elizabeth was QVeene Elizabeth was With lye and all No Protestant euer saide so of Queene Elizabeth No Protestant euer thought so of any Woman You shamelesse pennes and brazen faces You haue often vouched Caluin against such Gouernement whom you make the Patriarch fondly of our Profession and yet you impute it to our Doctrine Lyers in this or in that needes Can you of your knowledge say this title was giuen vnto Queene Elizabeth Did shee euer practise it actually or challenge it habituall to her Person or her State And if it had beene challenged or giuen in Her time seeing that it is not at present but disclaimed by him that best may and seeing it dyed if yet it euer liued together with her what meaneth this quarreller to stirre vp a new allayed strife and trouble things setled and well disposed of The truth is Queene Elizabeths stile was no other then than King Iames is now mutatis mutandis Ouer all persons in all Causes not and all causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Ciuil in these her Maiesties Realmes and Dominions next vnder God supreame Gouernour Can your small vnderstanding put no difference betwixt Ouer all and In all betwixt Persons and Causes ouer all Persons in all Causes is one thing Ouer all Persons and all Causes is farre another thing Ouer Each or ouer Causes without Persons looketh your way But Causes with Persons ouer the Parties in their proceedings is no such exorbitances no Scripture expresse none inferred against it to any purpose We doe not professe much lesse propose or propugne that Princes are Heads or Gouernours to any such intent as to coyne or set abroad new Formes of Faith to determine what is defide what not as your side belyeth vs and beareth your Proselites in hand we doe Wee giue no such authority to any humane Power They were of you that did it at Trent that cast it vpon your Lord God the Pope He was one of you none of our side Stephen Gardner by name who to flatter the Prince in state and keepe himselfe in those hurring times in his fauour openly auouched as Cardinal Poole relateth That the King might take away the Cup from the Laity Potestas enim summe est penes regem For the King hath supreamest Power Such aphorismes neuer came out of our mouthes We say Princes haue supreame Power in Earth vnder God ouer all Persons in all Causes whatsouer within their Dominions euen in Causes meerely Ecclesiasticall to compell them to doe their duties by the Ciuil Sword Not ouer all Causes to doe as they will to command or change beliefe or Faith Will it rellish better with you in Saint Augustines words Then this is our profession in his words Kings serue God as Kings if in their owne Realmes they command good things not alone which concerne the
ciuill state of men but which doe also touch Religion and Piety Thus he so we in our Profession ouer all persons in all causes Not In all Causes alone and singular as you traduce vs. Hoc posito Now see wee your Texts of Scripture contrary to this in our owne Bibles 1 Tim. 2. 11. Let the woman learne in silence with all subiection Therefore a woman heire or otherwise cannot be Gouernour in her Realmes Doe you thinke that the Lady Infanta no Protestant Princesse will be so confinde because shee may not say Masse nor speake in the Congregation therefore as Dutchesse of Burgundy or Countesse of Flaunders may shee not meddle with the State Marke your owne words But I suffer not a woman to teach nor to vsurpe authority ouer the man Therefore shee cannot be supreame Gouernesse Let Catholicke Ladies looke to this Such Fellowes if they had their due would haue their mouthes gag'd with an halter I their tongues cut out and cast to Dogges If this were intended by Saint Paul I maruell why the Eunuch returning home into Ethiopla did not put downe Candace from being Queene If you take it not as you speake it for Equiuocators say one thing and meane another generally of all authority nor yet of any subiection but as Saint Paul restraineth it onely to Teaching and speaking in the Church we subscribe vnto you wee are of the same minde with you we say the same thing that you doe but then wee call your honesty into question and affirme you deale perfidiously with vs in belying vs and falsly with your Proselites in seducing them Did euer any Allen or Saunders or Parsons or Kellison heare Queene Elizabeth Preach Did euer any see her administer the Sacraments take vpon her to expound Scripture appoint Faith or denounce Excommunication Shee claimed and might and had authority commanding coerciue coactiue ouer Church-men Did shee euer challenge or vse it or was it giuen her in Church-seruice as Saint Tecla did and Saint Katherine of Siena in your Legends as Pope Ioane did if there sate such a strumpet in Saint Peters Chayre as Prioresses and Abbesses haue and exercise by your Canon Law or with Dispensations An Abbatesse may command the Priests that are subiect to her to excommunicate her rebelling Nunnes and the Priests are bound to obey her So Tabiena Armilla Panormitane Astensis The Canonists are of this minde saith Stephanus de Aluin that the dignity of Prelacy and excellency of Office may giue to Ecclesiasticall women therefore howsoeuer to women spirituall and Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction which they may enioy not onely by right delegated and committed vnto them but by ordinary also Now good Sir Gagger how digest you this good Catholicke Doctrine gaue wee euer so much to Queene Elizabeth Is this according to your Bibles or are your Bibles and ours not the same That of 1 Cor. 14. 34. is not cited according to our Bibles of the last Transation which you yet pretend to follow and howsoeuer cited it is not to purpose onely it discloseth your leud demeanor Saint Paul forbiddeth women to speake or teach in Churches so doe we And in conuenticles also you may see it inquirable presentable punishable in our visitations if any such presume to expound or interpret Scripture in priuate Houses You may sooner heare Pope Vrban preach then any Woman with vs to execute any function Ecclesiasticall who with you doe ordinarily baptize For satisfaction to poore misled Catholikes in this point if yet they will be satisfied take the resolution of our Church Art 37. The Queenes Maiesty it was made you know in Queene Elizabeths time hath the chiefe power in this Realme of England and other her Dominions vnto whom the chiefe gouernement of all Estates of this Realme whether they be Ecclesiasticall or ciuill in all causes doth appertaine and is not nor ought to be subiect to any forraigne iurisdiction 2. Where wee attribute to the Queenes Maiestie the chiefe gouernment by which titles wee vnderstand the mindes of some slanderous folke to be offended wee giue not to our Princes the ministring either of Gods Word or of the Sacraments The which iniunctions also lately set forth by Elizabeth our Queene doe most plainly testifie But that onely prerogatiue which wee see to haue beene giuen alwayes to all godly Princes in holy Scriptures by God himselfe that is that they should rule all estates and degrees committed vnto their charge by God whether they be Ecclesiasticall or temporall and restraine with the Ciuill Sword the stubborne and euill doers This is all that Queene Elizabeth had or challenged Publike Records publike notice publike testimony of the State and all that then liued are of greater credit I hope with all moderate and honest Romish Catholikes then the leud lying aspersions of a partiall Factionist such as this Fellow is and many of his companions are who haue taken vp this course as of inheritance and kinde to dare say any thing in despight of honesty and truth in ordine ad Deum for the Catholicke cause X. That Antichrist shall not be a particular man and that the Pope is Antichrist THat Antichrist was to come and so prophecied of that he is called That man of sinne is in my Creed and an Article of my Beliefe as being plainly and directly expressed such in Scripture And this I know no Protestant but beleeueth But whether he was to be One particular man or a State a succession opposite to Christ I know no Article Canon or Iniunction that tyeth mee to beleeue The Church of England leaueth me to my opinion Euery man may abound in his owne sence and beleeue it or not beleeue it as he will For who dareth peremptorily define what God himselfe hath not but left at liberty The Fathers I grant runne most vpon one man So doe your Masters of the Roman Church The Protestant Writers doe most of them encline rather to a Succession and a state of men but not all Not all so peremptorily as not to encline notwithstanding vnto one man who more then any of his rank shall oppose himselfe to Christ in that state and Succession Antichristian vnto whom all those markes and descriptions set downe in holy Scripture shall perfectly agree as Zanchius and many others doe hold For in point of Prophecie and that so obscure as this vntill plaine euent doe make it manifest iudgements doe and may well sauing the peace of the Church vary nor should wee condemne or censure Dissenters any way from our priuate opinions Whether the Pope bee that Antichrist or not the Church resolueth not tendreth it not to be beleeued any way Some I grant are very peremptory too peremptory indeed that he is He for instance that wrote and printed it I am as sure that the Pope is Antichrist that Antichrist spoken of in Scripture as that Iesus Christ is God But they that are so resolute peremptory and certaine let them answere for themselues they
grounds First Ezech. 18. 24. 26. If the righteous turne away from his righteousnesse and commit iniquitie and doe according vnto all the abominations that the wicked man doth shall hee liue all his righteousnesse that hee hath done shall not be remembred but in his transgression that hee hath committed and in his sinne that hee hath sinned in them shall hee die And againe repeated with like asseueration and reduplication vers 26. againe Ezech. 33. 12. The righteousnesse of the righteous shall not deliuer him in the day of his transgression And againe The wickednesse of the wicked shall not cause him to fall in the day that hee returneth from his wickednesse neither shall the righteous liue for his righteousnesse in the day that hee sinneth And verse 13. If hee commit iniquitie all his righteousnesse shall be no more remembred but for his iniquitie that hee hath committed hee shall die for the same Which againe is repeated verse 18. Therefore the righteous may lose his righteousnesse abandon his faith dye in his sinnes and receiue the reward of his Transgressions in his auersion from God hell fire Againe Matth. 12. 44. The vncleane spirit eiected returneth vnto his former residence entreth possedeth his former state and the case of that man is worse than the beginning Sathan is not eiected but where the partie is in the state of Grace with God being regenerate by faith Reposseding is not but by relapse into sinne nor a worse state but where a man dyeth in sinne Luke 8. 13. They on the rocke are they who when they heare receiue the word with ioy who for a while belieue and in time of temptation fall away Iohn 15. 2. Euery branch that beareth not fruit in mee hee taketh away Matthew 24. 12. Because iniquitie shall be increased the charitie of many shall grow cold Surely it was hot that groweth cold and charitie inlarged is not but the fruit of a liuing faith which if it continued in statu quo the charitie of many could not waxe cold Therefore once had may be lost say they Againe Rom. 11. 20. 21. Thou standest by Faith be not high-minded but feare and feare is not but where change may be Here change may be or why doth it follow Take heede least hee also spare not thee The reason is Any man may haue that which another had Now 1 Timoth. 6. 20. Some haue erred concerning faith And 1 Timoth. 1. 18. 19. holding faith and a good conscience which some hauing put away concerning faith haue made shipwracke Nor was it onely for those times but fore-told of succeeding ages 1 Timoth 4. In the latter dayes some shall depart from the faith Gal. 5. 4. Saint Paul spake not vpon supposition of impossibility Yee are abolished from Christ whosoeuer are iustified by the Law yee are fallen from Grace For many were so that hauing belieued and being baptized did euacuate Christ by their owne righteousnesse in the Law Of whom Saint Paul complayneth in all that Epistle to the Galathians and elsewhere Nor in point of onely Heresie was Faith by them lost but also of good liuing and conuersation 2 Pet. 2. 20. Where those that had escaped the filthinesse of the World therefore washed and made cleane through the knowledge of our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ Therefore iustified truely by Faith are yet intangled againe therein and ouercome Therefore lapsed from Faith as is expressed vers 21. and 22. ensuing Infinite are the testimonies of Scriptures to this purpose insisted vpon by the auouchers I adde but one of them Heb. 6. 4. It is impossible that they which were once enlightned and haue tasted of the heauenly gift and were made partakers of the holy Ghost and haue tasted of the good word of God and of the power of the world to come if these were not iustified they know not who were if these had not faith where was it to be found if they fall away should be renued againe by repentance seeing they crucifie againe the Sonne of God vnto themselues and make a mocke of him Thus Scripture speaketh plaine Their Reasons from Scripture are euident Man is not likely in state of Grace to be of an higher alloy then Angels were in state of Glory than Adam was in state of Innocency For Grace is but a conformitie thereto and no conformitie exceedeth the Architype At most it is but an equalitie thereto and equals are of the same proportion Now if Adam in Paradise and Lucifer in Heauen did fall and loose their originall state the one totally the other eternally what greater assurance hath any man in state of Proficiency not of Consummation Againe Faith must needes be lost where it cannot consist It cannot consist where God will not abide God will not abide where hee is disobeyed hee is disobeyed where mortall sinne is committed the most righteous man liuing vpon the face of the earth continually doth or may in this sort transgresse Who can tell how oft hee offendeth Cleanse thy seruant from presumptuous sinnes Thou wilt haue no fellowship at all with the deceitfull Nor shall any euill dwell with thee Saul was at first the Childe of God called according to the election of Grace not onely temporall for the Kingdome of Israel but also eternall for the heauenly Kingdome In opinion of Antiquitie thus hee was and yet afterward hee fell it is confessed totally all say Eternally these say that maintaine iustifying Faith cannot be lost But if Saul were not of Gods Children in grace inducd with Faith and the holy Spirit yet Salomon was there is no question with them because hee was a Writer of holy writ and wrote as hee was enspired by God If they did not graunt it the Scripture would euict it For 2 Samuel 7. God speaketh of him literally though of Christ Iesus intentionally I will be his father and he shall be my sonne And in the 12. Chapter of the same Booke Hee called his name Salomon and the Lord loued him and sent by the hand of Nathan the Prophet and called his name beloued of the Lord because the Lord loued him indeede Yet Salâ—mon fell as Saint Augustine and Saint Chrysostome are cleare for it at least temporally and totally too when hee went and serued other gods If Salomon were neuer the Childe of God yet Dauid was without contradiction and Saint Peter without nay Yet Dauid fell foule in that act of murther and adultery and lost his Faith and present state of Grace if Dauid had perished in that his Sinne what had become of his Soule for euer It was not possible hee should in regard of the purpose of Grace but had it beene so where had he bin Surely hee that desired a new heart to be created had not that heart which he had before his fall For Creation is production from not being vnto being Saint Peter was a chosen vessell of Christ Iesus and if euer was any the Childe of God Yet hee denyed
Iesus Christ with an oath which was peccatum lethale as Saint Augustine prooueth in his 66. Tractat. vpon Saint Iohn Chirst prayed for him that his faith might not fayle But his Prayer was for the end not the act That hee might not fall finally and hee did not but not that not totally for so hee did His infirmitie appeared in his fall Gods mercy was seene in his restauration Simon Magus was an Heretique an Arch-heretique the father of Heretiques and first begotten of the Deuill yet Simon Magus was a Christian once and baptized and belieued and brought forth fruits of new life and followed Philip a certaine time He belieued it is said but not truely It is not said he belieued not truely Saint Luke saith hee belieued in the same termes with the same words to the same intent and purpose that hee speaketh of others that belieued truely constantly Where the Holy Ghost putteth no difference what man hath any warrant to distinguish The Scripture doth not so much as insinuate the hypocrisie of Simon Magus then and what is hee that would haue his nay belieued before Saint Lukes yea Iudas was a Reprobate and cast away for euer Our Sauiour calleth him the Sonne of perdition and saith it had beene good hee had neuer beene borne Yet Iudas was numbred with the twelue Apostles had all the Prerogatiues which they enioyed God gaue him to Christ as well as Peter or Iohn And if hee perished onely in the number of them that were giuen vnto Christ doubtlesse hee was first ranked in that number and perishing ceased to be of that number as ceasing to be of that number he perished Beside if Faith had cannot be lost the Dogge cannot be said to returne vnto his vomit nor the Swine to wallowing in the myre If righteousnesse had cannot be lost why doe wee pray continually against that Leade vs not into temptation Why did the Apostle chastice and bring vnder his body least he should become a cast-away Why should hee admonish as hee doth Hee that standeth let him take heede lest hee fall And Worke out your Saluation with feare and trembling Againe say they totally it may be lost for Faith is an adhesion vnto God Sinne seperateth man from God and maketh a diuision in that first Coniunction but by repentance it is againe restored and recouery gayned after fall Totally lost is not then euer finally eternally nor ineuitably lost For yet wilt thou returne and refresh mee and bring vp my life from the gates of death againe And as the Tree that is cut downe at the stemme so long as the stocke remaineth in the ground yet by the sent of waters it will recouer saith Iob and againe shew forth the branches So so long as men in the Church haue meanes in Christ it is possible to be renued by Repentance Possible they say Necessary say some because of that necessitating purpose of God whereby hee is saued and could not perish that was appointed vnto life vnchangeably So then they teach that are thus perswaded Faith totally may be lost Faith totally lost may eternally be lost and also not be lost eternally though totally for a time Because God againe will restore them to Grace and except hee would doe so they could not rise to Grace but because his will is not put into practise by his power he necessitateth no man so irreuersably vnto life nor death those that haue lapsed totally may also perish finally It will be vrged by them which is here said by you What needes there any further proofe where holy Scripture is so plaine and they graunt in a case so fully cleared and resolued in Scripture no further proofe needeth as necessarily required yet for illustration and assurance a concurring assent of many is requisite of congruitie Wherfore they bring Fathers for their purpose Ignatius the ancientest this day extant of whose writings there is little or no question in his Epistle to the Magnesians pag. 26. diuideth mankinde into two sorts of Coynes as hee speaketh there and explicating his meaning saith hee doth not so intend it as if hee meant two distinct Natures in man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. That one and the same man is sometime the Childe of God and againe the Childe of the Deuill If hee liue godly he is a man of God if wickedly the Childe of the Deuill not so by Nature but from his owne depraued will And speaking elsewhere of constancy in persecution saith Albeit I am exceedingly strengthened in God yet ought I to feare so much the rather And againe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I doe not know whether I am worthy or not Clement in his Constitutions 5. 26. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. The Holy Spirit is continually assistant with those that possesse him so long as they are worthy so to haue him From whomsoeuer this holy Spirit is diuided Hee leaueth them destitute and forsaken and deliuered vp vnto the wicked Spirit I know the Author is questioned vpon his honestie at least hee is ancient but I hold him honest and perswade my selfe I can proue him so to be as hee seemeth for my part Tertullian in de praescript Cap. iij. Et hoc mirum opinor vt probatus aliquis retro postea excidat Saul bonus prae ceteris liuore posteà euertitue Dauid vir bonus secundum cor Domini postea caedis stupri reus Salomon omni gratiâ sapientia donatus à Domino ad Idololatriam à mulieribus inducitur Soli enim dei filio seruabatur sine delicto permanere As if it were a thing so strange that any Man approued by God should afterward relapse from Grace Saul a man better then the rest was ouertaken and vndone at length through Enuy. Dauid was a good man and according vnto the Lords heart yet afterward guilty of murther and adultery Salomon inducd with all grace and wisedome from the Lord was by women brought ouer vnto Idolatry For why it was reserued to the Sonne of God alone to be without sinne What then if a Bâ—shop a Deacon a Virgin a Widow a Teacher a Martyr haue swarued from his rule shall Heresie therefore haue the better of Truth Doe wee estimate and approue Faith by Mens Persons or not rather Persons by Faith Onely the faithfull man is a wiseman Onely a Christian man is of account No man is a Christian but he that continueth vnto the end Thus farre he Cyprian is through for the point Epist 7. Parum est adipisci potuisse aliquid Plus est quod adeptus es posse seruare sicut fides ipsa Natiuitas salutaris non accepta sed custodita viuisicat Nec statim consecutio sed consummatio hominem Deo seruat Dominus hoc magisterio suo docuit dicens Ecce sanus factus es sani noli peccare nequid tibi deteriuâ— fiat Puta hoc illum Confessori suo dicere Ecce Confessor factus es sani noli
beyond it against it without it So Damned or Saued are so ordained by God Whatsoeuer God willeth commeth to passe and whatsoeuer commeth to passe commeth so to passe because God hath said So and not otherwise it shall come to passe either positiuely by disposing it or else permissiuely by giuing way and suffering it so to come to passe as it doth come to passe This his will as nor himself began not in time it is and was eternall as he is euer I am not I will be or haue bin Whatsoeuer is done in processe of time was so seen so disposed of and ordered before all Time for he is not measured but by Eternity which is Tota simul perfecta possessio sui The totall and perfect possession of it self If then there bee Damned and Saued as there are God's eternall will did so determine of them their finall estate from all Eternity and after that determination of God they are damned or saued ineuitably not onely according vnto Prescience but also according to Predestination say the Roman schools in which this Fellow would seem to haue sent some idle houres after their fleeing Predecessors What then Why surely the poore man meant well to the Catholique Cause and would say somewhat though no matter what which he did not vnderstand nor could vtter He thought well though he could not handsomly tell his Tale which should haue been marshald thus That God by his sole will and absolute decree hath irrespectiuely resolued and ineuitably decreed some to be saued some to be damned from all Eternity Man in curiosity hath presumed farre vpon and waded deep into the hidden Secrets of the Almighty no-where more or with greater Presumption than where that grand Apostle stood at gaze with O the depth and in consideration cried out How vnsearchable are his waies who yet was admitted into Councell of State and rapt vp into the third heauen In the point of Election for Life and Reprobation vnto Death Protestants and Papists are many wayes at oddes in opposition and each diuided at home amongst themselues not for the Thing which all resolue but for the Manner in which they differ agreeing in the Main that It is so disagreeing on the By How it cometh so as if God meant to reserue no Secrets vnto himself but impart them all to men as if it were not enough to saue some and cast others off but he must giue account of dooing so Some Protestants and no mo but some haue considered God for this effect of his will in reference to Peter and Iudas thus that Peter was saued because that God would haue him saued absolutely and resolued to saue him necessarily because hee woâ—ld so and no further that Iudas was damned as necessarily because that God as absolute to decree as om 〈…〉 ipotent to effect did primarily so resolue concerniâ—g him and so determine touching him without respect of any thing but his owne will insomuch that Peter could not perish though he would nor Iudas be saued doo what he could This is not the doctrine of the Protestants the Lutherans in Germany detest and abhorre it It is the priuate fansie of some men I grant but what are Opinions vnto Decisions priuate Opinions vnto receiued and decided doctrines The Church of England hath not taught it doth not beleeue it hath opposed it wisely contenting herself with this Quoúsque and Limitation Art 17. We must receiue God's promises in such wise as they be generally set forth to vs in holy scripture and not presuming to determine of When How Wherfore or Whom Secrets reserued to God alone So this Goose the Gagger may put his Gag into the Bils of many of his owne Gaggle as well as into others Lagges who presume as farre and wander as wide sometime as they do though more couertly in their tearms Our Bible in expresse words saith what we beleeue it teacheth not contrary to that which is resolued in the Church of England the positiue doctrine wherof is no other but what this Wittall confirmeth out of Scripture that God at the beginning made not death as Wisd 1. 13. because she hath learned out of S. Paul that Through sinne death came into the world whereof God was neither Aurthor nor Abettor but Hee the Father of lies a Lier a Murderer from the beginning in procuring the Fall of man Sinne being entred and by sinne death and so all mankinde in the Masse of perdition God fitted and prepared a Restorer a Mediator the Man Christ Iesus that so Whosoeuer beleeued in him should not perish but haue euer lasting life out of his mercy both free and meer because he was not willing that any should perish but all should come vnto Repentance as 2. Pet. 3. 9. and be saued So large was his Mercy so enlarged his Loue that out of his good pleasure it was his will All men to bee saued and to come to knowledge of the Truth Shew a contrary resolution of the Church of England and gag vp my mouth Sir Goose for euer else goe gaggle on the Green For particular opinions So or so aetatem habent let them speak for themselues and so be it they rent not the peace of the Church let them abound in their priuate senses I nor teach nor beleeue any such Paradox nor the Church whereof I am and you should be a Member positiuely Wee need see no more except to more purpose the places are adrem but touch not vs. They speak home and to purpose which they should declare but we are not interest in opposition Vrge them against those who do vndertake to maintain that men are damned necessarily See Fathers we may but wee shall not need wee beleeue what they should say and go hand in hand with what they doo say dogmatically but see them all we cannot if we would vnlesse we would go seek when we need not and if wee would might blowe the seeke for some of them and after long search be neuer the neer in finding them For Saint Augustine what or where wil you tell vs or are you able to informe vs that hee affirmeth You mean he affirmeth somewhat in his first Book of the City of God and I knowe he doth more by much than you can report me You haue had some acquaintance with some Particulars there as you met them by chance in your perambulation of some trans-scripts of other mens Notes and haue now forgotten where and what Else what man but such a Scribbler would so loosely in a point of opposition and therefore like enough of examination haue referred vs to Saint Austen in his first Book de Dei Ciuitate Something you would say I knowe not what and therefore till you let me knowe I say nothing to what you haue said I cannot tell how I haue seene and read Tertullian in that place remembred expounding that Petition in our Lords Prayer Lead vs not into temptation who
be feared at your own weapoÌ„s euen vpon your most aduantage Let it be Turn vnto some of the Saints yet haue you no more but opinion and the opinion you most follow of new birth hatched first by Aquinas as may bee collected For as for Saint Augustines expounding it as Catholiques do I will let the Reader see and then judge One of your owne saith Pineda on the place Some take it spoken ironically and so it is for your purpose is it not By which is meant nothing lesse Alij seriò others take it spoken in good earnest but not therefore as aduising Inuocation Call saith Caietan vnto some of the dead let him be a man that hath liued most vnblameably put him to defend thy cause Assuredly not any will make answer because they are not their soules hauing diâ—d together with the bodies Cardinall Luther's great Antagonist was so farre from imagining any custome of Inuocation in the time of Iob which Bellarmine likewise denieth that he supposeth Eliphas to haue been an Atheist and to deny the soules immortality and what be commeth of your custome of Inuocation in his opinion in the time of Iob Eugubinus by Saints vnderstandeth holy men aliue and by Call not Inuocation but Allocution or naming of them And with him accord Philippus Presbyter and Polychronius as it may be collected by your owne Pineda Others by Saints mean holy Angels but present imployed to bee spoken to as apparitions were then frequent among those holy men either Leiger or extraordinarily imployed Angels Lyra runs another course not to the Persons but Precedents of Saints Reuolue the remembrance of Ages past as if Eliphas has said so and go consider the liues actions of holy men thou shalt finde them discussed exceedingly all but not impatient in affliction any of them In such diuersity of opinions and greater than this to conclude for Inuocation assertiuely none can none will but men like your self quiâ—us anima prosale S. Thomas alone must ouersway all because as Pineda confesseth he was the first that applied it to Inuocation Tandem sapienter D. Thomas sententiam hanc ad inuocationem pertinere voluit After all other Expositors saith Pineda he would haue it belong to inuocation of Saints Therefore put vp your Pipes for Saint Augustine singing that Catholique Song S. Augustine's words are these Indignatio quâ quisque angitur tanquam iniquè sibi aliquid acciderit dum non cogitat vsque adeò se immundum esse coram Dâ—â— vt innocanti Angeli non respondeant aut se demonstrare dignati sint qui enim hoc 〈◊〉 cogiâ—at stultus est irâ irrationabili interimitur Aut idcirco Angelos non audire non videre potest stultus quia ir â interemptus à zelo occisus Indignation saith he expounding the second verse which vexeth a man as if he were hardly dealt withall whilst he doth not remember that in Gods fight he is so vnclean that the Angels vouchsafe not to appear vnto him or giue him any answer when he calleth for them He that thinketh not so is a fool and killed of wrath Or thus A fool cannot heare or see the Angels because anger and wrath haue euen slain him Thus Saint Augustine in those Annotations bringeth a double exposition of those words in both according to the Septuagints reading whom hee followeth by Saints he vnderstandeth not men departed and with God as the Catholiques since Thomas doo interpret it but Angels of Paradise Secondly hee is not for calling vpon them for how could he if he held Bellarmine's Rule for Sancte Abraham but vnto them How As familiarly conuersing with them in those daies as often appearing and talking with them his very words either Guardians or otherwise Let it bee so now Saint Peter Saint Paul appear conuerse with demonstrate themselues to vs for my part I will speak to them to remember my necessities or cause to God as I would to your self or any other Christian for your Praiers or the Churches Thus what get you by Saint Augustine or your owne Bible I list see no more I haue seen enough already the vtmost I am sure that you can say and what I haue seen I haue satisfied already both in Scriptures and Fathers elsewhere These very places you haue named and many others I will not as you vse is actum agere onely this for your better direction or information in this point of Iouocation or rather Intercession through Allocution we do not we dare not pray to Saints that is speak to them or intreat them to pray for vs not for vnlawfulnesse of the act so much as for vnaptnes of the Agent for we are not perswaded nor can it be proued vnto vs by any Romish Catholick liuing that the Saints departed and now with God doo or can ordinarily by any power or ability in themselues hear see knowe take notice of the wants state cases or praiers of men on earth to be mindefull of them vnto God in heauen Nor can it bee prooued that otherwise God doth ordinarily reueal vnto them by any means those former specified that so they may take notice of them This must be prooued or it is in vain to pray to them vnlesse a man will hazard his state and all vpon vncertainties It sufficeth not that they knowe some things at some times in some places of some men extraordinarily for so wee are vncertain what Saints knowe what how much when by what means and so may well be blamed of folly for going about when wee may go direct vnto them when we may go to God Saue all other labour in this point prooue but onely this Their knowledge of any thing ordinarily I promise you straight I will say Holy Saint Mary pray for me till then you must pardon vs Protestants for not playing the fools with you XXXI That the bones or Reliques of Saints are not to bee kept No vertue proceedeth from them after they be dead YOu may keepe if you will and lock vp if you please in your Cabinet or Calket or where you will Saint Campions thumb Saint Garnets strawe Saint Loiolaes hayre which cured if I remember Michael Vasques of I know not what or that goodly Relique which at Denham once in Sir George Peckhams house courst the diuell vp and downe from Anne Smiths foot ouer all her body the Priest following Him with his hand vp and downe wheresoeuer the Spirit went And further take Saint Lipsius old breeches to shrine them in and the vertue that did or might drop from them our Lady of Sichem will perhaps lend them to so holy and deuout a purpose I know no Protestant will steale them from you But ad Textum as Marcellinus vseth to say your Texts of Scripture I meane As all the rest so this also is contrary to expresse words of our owne Bibles This say I but what Why two things are prooued or should be First that Reliques may
maintained and iustifiable Article 32. Bishops Priests and Deacons are not commanded by Gods Lawe eyther to vow the estate of single life or to abstaine from marriage Therefore it is lawfull also for them as for all other Christian men to marry at their owne discretion as they shall iudge the same to serue better vnto godlinesse I finde no vow mentioned in this Article nor leaue giuen to marry notwithstanding vow it is your addition to scandalize the Doctrine which otherwise you durst not touch Marriage is honourable amongst all men This you doe not deny that single life is essentiall vnto the Clergie and indispensable none of your side affirmeth that I know but nonus Dogmatistes in Italiâ as Cassander calleth him Francisco Tunia◠the Iesuite It is but an Ecclesiasticall sanction this both you and we set downe It is not deined but notwithstanding that generall licence to all the Church may restraine marriage vnto some at some time vpon some occasions as wee vse in our Colledges at this day which is no restraint but a condition tendred Leaue your fellowship if you marry The Primitiue Church vsed I deny not this conditionall restraint in some cases to some men vpon some occasion they might so doe without tax or blame and so may you or wee for ought I know with moderation or discretion So the question is not Whether Priests may marry but Whether it bee conuenient for them so to doe You say no neuer at no time Wee deny this rigor and leaue it indifferent to their owne discretion resoluing that at some time for some causes it is conuenient and to bee permitted to some men at some time for some considerations it may be denied to marry Your Church for reasons best known to her selfe though apparant enough to all hath a long time doated vpon single life of Priests for I cannot say chaste and the better to secure her selfe of that state hath laid a tye of conscience a band by oath vpon them admitting none to holy orders but such as first solemnly take that vow which hath many times often filled your Churches with knaues and dunses abundantly honester men and discreet Scholars refusing such a tye Wee aduise you not to break your vow perswade not your selues so we counsell and aduise you by all meanes to keep it liue honest marry freely if you be free if not we say not to you Do as Alexander did with Gordius knot Cut it in pieces when you cannot vndo it It was ill to vow so vnaduisedly worse to force you to it on no necessity yet worse to break it securely with presūptiō butworst of all adhinnire after fresh maidenheads or neighbors beds cōtinually We say you did ill to vow absolutely that which was not in your power to performe a mischief past that cannot bee remedied must bee relieued what it may If you haue vowed keepe it on Gods name it is sinne to breake it I make no question of it which was deliberately discreetly possibly promised in things not against nature common right or reason for euen in a bond a condition euill impious or impossible is voyd and bindeth not they say I deny not vowes in the new Testament they may bee meanes vnto and parts of Gods worship as well in the new Testament as the old So Gregory Nazianzen imposed a vow vpon himselfe not to take the name of God in vaine and kept it So haue many other lawfully and profitably done doe you so and we commend you for it The Texts you produce doe not one of them speak of the marriage of Priests or religious persons or any other that vowed chastity vnto God of vowes they speake and of vowes to be kept but Quid haec ad Bacchum Your promise was your vndertaking is to prooue by expresse words of our owne Bibles that the vowes of Priests and religious persons touching single life should bee kept and yet neyther doe wee deny the one nor you prooue the other See your honesty in this also and insufficiency to performe XL. That fasting and abstinence from meates is not grounded vpon holy Scripture nor causeth any spirituall good FAsting is abstaining from all meates or from som certaine meates the first istruly Fasting which must bee limited and confined to a time for so totally to fast is impossible The second is dieting rather then fasting and yet is that which this man principally meaneth by Fasting as speaking according to the tongue of Ashdod in the Church of Rome that is more for appearances then true substances Fasting is manifold obiectiuely as it hath beene practised by Iewes by Pagans by Christians This man should speak of the Christian Fast onely but huddleth all altogether without distinction Fasting is distinct subiectiuely Among Christians there is or may be vnderstood a naturall a morall an ecclesiasticall Fast for necessity for remedy conueniencie policy piety This addle-headed Fellow cares not to put a difference between the kindes nor to adde quantity to his position that men might know where to haue him and finde what he should say He cannot be ignorant that we commend Fasting as a profitable help vnto deuotion and piety Hee cannot chuse but knowe that wee command it not onely for ciuil but religious ends and vse it in times of speciall note for fitting dispatches of principall alloy In our Ember-weeks for giuing of Orders in our Lent to humble our selues against Easter vpon the Vigils of Saints and other set daies which we ground vpon Scripture and vse to this purpose To cause spirituall good So Scriptures and Fathers serue to no purpose being brought to proue that which is not denied We ground it on Scripture but not that alleaged of the Rechabites We haue warrant sufficient from Christian practice and direction We need no addresse to Iewish either Nazarits or else Rechabites for example and if we should yet what haue we to do with this pretended They drank no wine at all none of them for euer as the Icthyophagi of Aethiopia eat no flesh a generall custome no Fast They did it out of a politick respect because they were strangers in the Land Wee must haue a religious example to serue our turn And lastly they were yet vnder the Law the Vow of the Nazarite might as well bee pleaded and all Iewish Ceremonies for obseruation vnto Christians So ignorant is this Idle-pate Otherwise wee ground Fasting vpon holy Scripture and could adde many moe places of Fathers to be seen the true end and intent whereof is double 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to bee anointed with the holy Ghost and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to bee washed and rinsed from our sinnes but it needs not It sufficeth onely we confesse most willingly the ground of Fasting to be diuine the vse of Fasting to be singular So these goodly proofs touch not vs at all Vse them against those that vse not Fasts for lastly it is our practice XLI That Iesus Christ
vpon the name of the Lord that is he that calleth vpon the Lord shall besaued but we grant the name of Iesus to bee Iesus named and when wee heare that sweet name of our Sauiour named accordingly do and are inioyned by Canon to do reuerence with our bodie Heere it doth not insue wee may worship Images there is text for the one none for the other Shewe it that vnto the Image os Iesus euery knee should bowe Difference in the one from the other Images are resemblances which in vse and application may in naturall proportion haue such a relation vnto the Prototype that they supply the roome thereof insinuating the forme and fashion thereof which the name thereof cannot doe insinuating onely that being thereof So there is reason for the one none for the other lesse reason of alleadging this text of Saint Paul for ratification of Image-worship In the Brazen Serpent there is more resemblance It may be a warrant for making an Image no warrant for worshipping an Image made nor for making ordinarily because that was made by speciall direction to a speciall end against a generall practice vpon precept Thou shalt not make any grauen Image God may so dispense with his own Law where when in what sort and to whom hee will but not wee The first obseruation then out of this Text against the Protestant that God commanded the making of this Image is idle neuer Protestant made question of it nor of the second that it was set vp for a signe nor the third that the lookers vpon it should receiue health nor the fourth of exempting the practice commanded from the breach of the first Commandement These they confesse they plead and bid you shew the like for your Images for making erecting beholding reuerencing any Image of God or Saints in this sort and they yeeld This Serpent was beheld not adored by those that looked on it though it had a reference vnto a great mystery and was a Rememoratiue of saluation extended by the Sonne of God Vnlesse it were adored it is to no purpose alleaged For making is one thing this may be done Adoring another thing that is vnlawfull Therefore Saunders and Catharine and Saunders and Bellarmine doe maintaine adoration was giuen vnto it Vasques denieth it and that iustly for when they began to adore it the good Ezechiah brake it in pieces But yet Vasques must yeeld it was adored or else that it is alleaged to no purpose to prooue Adoration To conclude no Text of Scripture doth expresly say nor by consequence inferre that euer Images were worshipped with countenance or commendation of God or any holy man in Scripture Saint Ambrose saith no such thing as is pretended that Images lawfully may be worshipped Hee saith Whosoeuer crowneth the Emperours Statue crowneth the Emperor that is honoreth him and whosoeuer dishonoreth the Emperours Statue dishonoreth him What then Whosoeuer dishonoreth Gods Image dishonoreth him I grant And what of that Therefore honour is to bee giuen some Images No man denieth it Therefore all Images are to be worshipped Away with that no such consequence Honor is one thing Dulia if you will Latria is another worship I am sure First What is Gods Image Then How farre Gods Image Then What honour is due vnto Gods Image And lastly Whether the honor giuen be not more or other honour then is due vnto an Image Saint Augustine in his third booke de Trinit You might haue added cap. 10. as well as the book out of Bellarmines nameth the brazen Serpent expresly in the ranke of such things as tanquam religiosa honorem haberepossunt And so doe wee and many things of that nature as the Sacraments of the Church of the which very things hee speaketh and it had beene better he had sayd nothing of them For hee demolisheth that Idol of Transubstantiation in adding Stuporem tanquam mira habere non possunt Which could not haue passed from his pen had he beleeued Transubstantiation This place of Saint Augustine is to no purpose for there is not a word of Images there Saint Gregory is of later date then Saint Augustine and of lesse credit by much in controuerted questions Images in his time were much improoued and yet not vnto Adoration Honour Reuerence and respect was giuen then to bee bookes for the simple and ignorant people to bee remembrances of things by representation Hold you heere and wee blame you not As for Damascene he was a childe in respect of those Heroes of the Church Postnatus and a party in that Image quarrell in the Easterne Church exception against him may lie as partiall interessed and yet hee saith no more though what hee saith cannot bee prooued then that the honoring of Images was a Tradition Apostolical You or Damascene proue this and I yeeld I maruaile none euer said so before Damascene who yet had good occasion to auow it if it had beene so They had you say and did auow it for Saint Basil against Iulian hath the same that it was deliuered from the Apostles Some body told Pope Adrian so and hee beleeued them for facile credimus quae fieri volumus Adrian related it in the second Synod of Nice and you take it for Gospell It Saint Basil said it I le subscribe it shew it in Saint Basil and no more adoe I maruaile Saint Basil should euery where forget this Tradition remembring so many as he doth especially in his booke de spiritu sancto Basil is not the onely man belyed in that ridiculous Synod nor the onely man forged in that Epistle of Pope Adrian whence the Rhemists and Harding and Bellarmine had it from whom you took whatsoeuer you haue impudent Plagiary as you are Saint Chrysostom's Masse is not intirely his many things haue beene added in tract of time no man will deny it that knoweth any thing this bowing to the Image is one of those additions and yet in some editions there is no mention of any Image if there bee it doth not come home to iustifie that in the Church of Rome whereby worship is giuen to stocks and stones and such worship as indeed is Gods peculiar Images and Idols may be two things these prophane and impious neuer tolerable those not vnlawfull and sometime profitable especially resemblances of Stories Images were vnlawfull vnto the Iewes at all the very ordinary and ciuill vse and making of them except by speciall warrant in some place as in the Temple vpon the Ark which though perhaps not obserued yet is true and apparant to any man that aduisedly shall read Philo and Iosephus Vnto Christians they are not vnlawful for ciuil vses nor vtterly in all manner of religious imployment The pictures of Christ the blessed Virgin and Saints may be made had in houses set vp in Churches the Protestants vse them they despight them not Respect and honour may be giuen vnto them the Protestants doe it and vse them for helps