also agreed that it must beare such a sense as may stand with the scripture and the analogie of faith then although we differ about the proper sense of the words yet differ we not about any matter of Faith as you do about originall sinne PAPIST Seeing therefore the Church of Christ continueth visible for â—uer as ours hath done and not theirs wee haue the auncient Fathers for patrones of our cause they be destitute of all antiquitie we haue the truth in many points according to their owne confessione and they consequentlie falshood wee haue the Scriptures and their true interpretation they onelie the bare name and priuate erroneous exposition I conclude that whosoeuer will be saued must not heare them but embrace our old Catholike Apostolike faith PROTESTANT The persons of all the members of the Church of Christ as men haue beene in their times visible are and shall be to the worlds end they haue beene also generally to some of their fellow members visiblie in their times as members of the body of Christ howbeit the visibility of Churches established and in their assemblies worshipping God in the word Sacraments and prayer they haue often wanted as in the Egyptian captiuitie the daies of Elias the captiuitie of Babylon the dispersion caused by Sauls persecution and vnder the ouer-spreading tyrannie of the Romish Antichrist driuing the woman that brought foorth the man-childe into Reuel 12. 13. 14 the wildernesse into a pâ—â—e prepared for her of God During which captiuitie of the Church in seuerall times either heathenish idolatry as in Egypt or Church idolatry as the golden calues and the seruice of Baal before and in the daies of Elias or carnal worship as among the Iewes in the dispersion afore-saide or meere Atheisme as vnder Sanballat and Tobijah or the mysterie of iniquity vnder the shew of pseudochristianitie as in the Apostasie of Antichrist hath borne the sway in the world as the onely Religion Such is the visibility of your Romish apostafie like the visibility of Ierobâ—ams calues of Baals Church of the Scribes and Pharisies and in pretence to build with the Iâ—wes that is the true Church of Christ semblant to Sanballat and Tobijah or at the beâ—â— to Eliashab their friend In this visibility you haue set foorth many goodly Pageants to dazell the eies of all those in whoÌ„ â—he God of this world hath blinded their eiâ—s that the light of the 2 Cor. 4. 3. 4. glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them as the state of Popes and Cardinals the Babylonish magnificence of your temples beset with sumptuous idols the stage play of your Masse with your whole Antichristian tyrannie which you haue vaunted to the world as the harlot her bedecked bed Prou. 7. 15. 17. with ornaments carpets and layes of Egypt perfumed with Mirrhe Aloes and Cinamon and like vnto the picture of Apoc. 17. 3. 4. 5. your Church the mother of whoredomes and abhominations that sitteth vpon a scarlet coloured beast and is arrayed in purple and scarlet and guided with gold and precious stones and pearles and hath a cup of gold in her hand full of abhominations and filthinesse of her fornications Of such visibility wee giue you leaue to boast and reioyce that wee haue no part with you in your glory least wee should also haue part with you in your plagues And albeit GOD hath graunted more visibility to our Churches then you can indure with patience to behold yet make wee not out of such visibility any demonstration that our Church is the true Church That faith that worship which by open confession and practise was visible in our Sauiour Christ and his blessed Apostles which in their holy writings inspired of God they haue deliuered to be seene read and vnderstood to be held and obserued of all the true Church of God is a demonstratiue and infallible visibility which wheresoeuer it is to be seene and discerned prooueth and conuinceth that they are the Church of Christ This is the onely visibility wherby the true Church is to be discerned and knowen which we haue often prooued and we hope is manifest to all mens consciences to be found in our Church and you shall neuer be able while the world standeth to make any sound proofe that your Church hath any such visibilitie but manifestly the contrary What patronage the auncient Fathers lend vnto your cause hath beene before shewed where you alleadged anie thing out of them and often hath beene further in all the fundamentall points wherein you â— dissent from vs and from the truth You imitate some rites twice dead and buried since they vsed them you are confident to affirme some things whereof they doubted you take vp their errors for principles of your faith you abuse and peruert their words and phrases to a contrarie meaning and in these onely as touching your Popish religion you follow the Fathers but their indicious testimonies touching the fundameÌ„tall points of Doctrine as originall sinne and the fruit therof concupiscence free will instification the vse of good workes the Sacraments and diuerse other points you will not see or else you peruert as the instable doe the Scriptures to their owne destruction 2. Pet. 3. 16. Compare what they write in one place with that which they write in another note the occasion marke the end discerne the aduersarie they haue to deale with consider the straine of their moued affections acknowledge their tropes and figures of speech you shall finde the Fathers to yeeld you but small helpe and to be but slender patrones of your apostasie on the contrary you shall perceiue that as wee haue the eldest antiquity for proofe whereof we cite the records of Scripture so haue wee the body of all consequent antiquity in all matters of faith touching the Deitie the Trinitie prouidence touching Christ his person natures offices mediation and our redemption by him touching the holie Ghost and his operation in the Church â—ouching the Catholike Church the communion of Saints and all necessarie parts thereof touching remission of sinnes touching the resurrection and eternall life In other matters if some where we varie from the Fathers as they varied one from another and some of them from themselues we haâ—e their leaues I haue before shewed you what difference Cont. Iulian. Pelag. lib 1. Augustine makes betweene Fundamenta fides Alia de quibus doctrissimi atque optimi Catholicae regulae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant betweene the Foundations of faith and other pointes whereabout the learned stayd best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree yelw â—hout impeachment to the frame of faith To your vaine pretence of our consent in any point of your Popish faith enough hath beene said before As for the Scriptures you haue them indeene and you keepe them so close that neither your selues wil search them as you ought nor suffer those that wold You banish the
God had not 2. Thes 2. 10. 11. sent you strong illusions to beleeue lies because you would not beleeue the truth it could not be that you should thus grope at noone day and still call for proofe in that which is so abundantly proued After the Popes had once fully gotten into the chaire of Apostasie the ashes of those witnesses of God whom for the testimonie of Iesus Christ you haue slaine as they are kept in store for a witnesse against you on earth so their spirits now in heauen do cry against you as the bloud of Abel against Cain Since the discouery of that Man of sinne in these latter yeares you haue found our congregations through Gods goodnesse much thicker in all nations then you would haue suffered if your Nimrods armes had bene as long as they are wont to be But what if we should onely answer you that the first of these 1600. is more in triall of truth then all the rest as that one day of the institution of Matrimonie betweene one man Math. 19. 4. and one woman ioyned together by an vnseparable knot is more to proue the integritie thereof then all the yeares succeeding wherein Polygamie and Dinorce had preuailed Would you renounce the triall of these incorrupted times and appeale to the latter wherein sundry corruptions were apparantly crept in What were this else but to shunne the light as the maner of deceiuers and euill doers is What the religion of this hundreth was nay what it ought to be for euer let the Apostolike writers witnesse and it the Religion of the Protestant congregations be the same with the religion taught beleeued and practised in that hundreth let all the latter times know that they are too young to controle it much more let Popish noueltie retire into the schooles and cloysters where it was bred Lastly all the times succeeding haue imbraced the Scriptures as the very word of God haue retained the confession of faith called the Apostles Creede as agreeable to holy Scriptures and only herein haue sought for the Canon and rule of truth The Protestant congregations holding the same faith and seruing God by the same rule haue therefore on their sides the consent of all ages from Moses to Christ from Christ to his Apostles to this day auouching the faith and seruice of God which they follow and practise and are compassed with a greater cloude of witnesses then all the Popish Canonists Summists Iesuits and Disputants shall euer be able to shew Hence I thus conclude The faith of the first hundreth recorded in the Scriptures and reteined in the ages following holding firmely the Scriptures and the Apostles Creed is the true faith and they so beleeuing and holding the true Church The faith of the Protestant congregations is the same Therefore the faith of the Protestant congregations is the true faith and they the true faith and they the true Church PAPIST They say they haue beene though innisible and they know not where This answer cannot serue nor yeeld any content to a soule desirous of truth For what man carefull of saluation would leaue a Church alwayes visible and knowne as ours hath beene and follow a congregation the beginning whereof is yet fresh in memorie and was neuer heard of before for many ages together as themselues cannot deny PROTESTANT As your religion consists wholly of errors so you must needs defend it by lies and that against your owne knowledge if at least you haue informed your selfe of the truth of that we say Were not Christ and his Apostles visible were not the godly Bishops and Fathers of the Primitiue Church visible say we not that our religion is the same that Christ and his Apostles taught that the true Church of God succeeding in all ages did professe and practise according to the Scriptures whereas on the other side wherein soeuer you differ from vs you differ from the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles and haue new forbished erroneous and hereticall opinions and build vpon mens imperfections and frailties and those neither agreeing with the Scriptures nor with the analogie of that faith which themselues mainteined taught Why then shame you not to affirme that we know not where the witnesses teachers of our religion haue bin for so your meaning must be True it is that against the long continued visibility of your inglorious Synagogue wherby you beare the ignorant in hand that yours is the true Church We answer truely and proue it by instance of the times of Elias and of our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles that the synagogue of Satan is oftentimes and for long time more visible then the Church of God and of Christ and that the Church of Christ is like the Moone as In Psal 10. Augustine Augustine compares it which sometime giues no light at all This our answer may giue content to euery soule that is desirous of truth especially such as will take the paines to search the Scriptures whether the things we say be so or no. As for that your bad asseueration that your Church hath beene alwaies visible and that the beginning of ours is yet in fresh memorie And was neuer heard of before in many ages together as our selues you say cannot deuie it is euen as true as the rest of your religion Vnfold vs the antiquity of that capitall and fundamentall point of your religion Subesse Extran com de maior obed cap. Vnam sanctam Romano pontifici est de necessitate salutis This is your principle of principles and yet as it is contrarie to all records of Scripture wherin there are no footsteps of any such dependance so is it controlled by the cleare testimony of all antiquitie by the primitiue state and constitution of the churches Concil Afric cap. 92. 101. 105. Concil Niceu Can. 6. Epist lib. 6. epist 30. li. 4. epist 38. in all the Christian world and by the iudicious sentence of Gregorie the first a Bishop of Rome And can we not deny that the beginning of our congregation is yet in fresh memorie c. God open the eyes of the blind to see your cunning and sophisticall equiuocation which is now become the idiome and proper language of poperie True it is indeede that the recouery of that libertie which by Gods mercy our Churches now enioy since they came out of the spirituall Babylon which is the Romish Synagogue may be fetched out of late memorie But is this the question betweene vs Or rather whether the beginning of that religion which giues the beeing to our churches and whereby they are distinguished from your Antichristian synagogue be yet in fresh memorie If Christ and his Apostles with their doctrine and faith be but of yesterday then so is ours But if theirs be from the beginning our religion being the same beginneth not one day or howre later then theirs did Lastly be it that the pompous and vainglorie of your synagogue be
the thing is so euident and certaine That Saint Gregorie likewise coined not a new religion but kept that which by continuall succession descended vnto him from Saint Peter is as sure and certaine for if he had all the Christian world would haue exclained against him and yet no such complaint is to be found in anie Historie or writer but all highlie commend him for his holinesse and learning and in our English calender he is inrolled for a Saint and the like we may saie of all his predecessors for none of them was euer noted by anie to haue degenerated in anie one article of faith from the religion of their forefathers and the Apostles and well knowen it is that 32. of the first were glorious Martyrs and shed their bloud for the name of Christ PROTESTANT That your popish Church hath continued 1600 yeares is so certaine as it is that your later Popes haue beene and are like those 32 Martyrs whose emptie number you bring forth to gaine credit vnto that degenerate rable that haue succeeded them not in shedding their owne bloud for the truth of Christ as they did but in spilling much Christian bloud partly about strange and vniust quarrels partly by treasonable and rebellious commotions of their owne raising partly by bloudy and fiery persecucions And therefore the succession of your Popes to those Martyrs is noe more credit to you then succession to Moses was to the Scribes and the Pharisees or succession to Aaron was to Annas Caiaphas As in place they succeed godly Bishops so in doctrine they succeed the Scribes and Pharisees and many Heretikes in irreligion and prophanes they succeed Lucian and Porphyrie in tyranny and cruelty Annas and Cayphas and the old persecuting Emperors of Rome into Reuel 13. 15. whose dead image they haue put life againe That which the Apostle Paul foretold of the successors to the Bishops of Ephesus that of themselues should men arise speaking perâ—erse Acts. 20. 30. things to draw Disciples after them hath too long beene verified of the successors in place to those first holy Bishops of Rome And were that true which you say that none of the predecessors to Gregorie the first were euer noted by any to haue degenerated in any one article of faith froÌ„ the religion of their forefathers the Apostles which is not vnknoweÌ„ to your selues to be most false for Alfonsus de Castro doth frankly coÌ„fesse that of Liberius the Pope it is manifest he was an Arriav that Anastasious did fauor the Nestorians Aduers heres lib. cap. 4. he that hath read histories doubteth not yeâ— if the successors of Gregorie haue bin iustly detected some for Atheists some Coniurers Necromancers some for Impoysoners some for villanous cruelty vpon the bodies of the quicke dead some notorious for bastardy besides other odious sins generally bribers Symonists Epicures more like to Sardanapalus or Heliogabolus then Peter or Paul must their succession in place to them to whom all other things they are most vnlike carie the Church of God on their sides your owne silence passing by the mention of all the successors to Gregorie the first by the space of a thousand yeares implies a confession that of those there are some at least degenerate from the religion of their forefathers and the Apostles which if with any face you could denie you would haue saide as much in them praise with lesse truth as you haue done of the former but vntruely But I suppose you cannot be ignorant that your owne Doctor Genebrarde hath Chron. lib. 4. verse 10. marked about a fiftie Popes for the space almost of 150 yeares from Iohn the 8. to Leo. 9. as reuolters wholy from the vertue of their ancestors and saith they were Apostatici apostatici potius quam apostolici Apostaticall rather then Apostolicall yea he calleth them monstrous which also Platina witnesseth with a witnesse of three speciall ones among the 50. Benedict 9. Siluester 3. and Gregorie 6. whom he calleth tria teterrima monstra three most hideous monsters what might be said of Iohn the 8. otherwise Pope Ioan Iohn the 12. two other of the 50. of Gregorie 7. Alexander 3. Bâ—niface 8. Iohn 23. To shew how vnlike they were to the Martyrs their Predecessors in place you cannot be ignorant and therefore you did warily to make no noise of these and the like least their very names might staine their succession and repeale that glory which you thought to get by the fame of Gregorie your Kalendar Saint touching whom whether he coyned any new religion or not or whether hee kept that which by continuall succession descended from Saint Peter how should we more certainly know then by enquiring into that religion which Saint Peter and Saint Paul taught and that not following vncertaine tradition which hath proued the Author of deceiuable fables but the certaine 2 Pet. 1. 1â— 19. line of holy scripture which leades vs to Christ himselfe who onely knew the minde of his father and hath in his written word reuealed it to his Church For as Ciprian saith Si ad diuinae traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat Ad Pompei contr epist Steph error humanus If we returne to the head and beginning of diuine tradition that is the doctrine which God himselfe deliuered humane error is put downe which that auncient Father by an excellent similitude setteth out thus Si canalis quae c. If the conduit pipe which before did runne in aboundance do suddenlie fatle do not men vse to goe to the fountaine there to know the reason why it faileth c. Quod nunc facere opportot Dei sacerdotes c. which saith he the Priests of God keeping Gods commandements must now do that if the truth haue wauered or failed in auie thing we maie returne to the originall of our Lord and to the tradition of the Gospel and of the Apostles that thence maie arise the reason of our doing from whence the order originall did first spring Which way to trie the truth so long as you do so diligently shun and take such paines to bring all religion to the touch of mans vncertaine authority what do you else but bewray a fearefull and guiltie conscience that dare not stand to the euidence of Gods word but in a suite of life and death saluation and damnation do willingly suffer the true Charters of diuine record to be lost or at least raked vp in the dust and bring in old men that can say nothing but by heare-say nay rather yong men now to tell what they haue heard off sometime said by old men vppon their onely bare heare-say So might the Iewes haue taken the law from the Scribes and Pharisees mouthes and haue learned to loue their friends hate their enemies with Matth. 6. 43. 2 Kings 22. 8. other Pharisaicall lessons and let the law of Moses lie in the dust as it had done
seeke a vision of the Prophets then they shall find that by the iust iudgment of Ezek. 7. ver 6 God the law shal perish from the Priest and councel froÌ„ the Ancient Which at this day they all find who feed vpon the lying vanities of Popish visions being deluded by the painted vizard of the Church which you haue put vpon your faces Wherefore if you could proue your Church the true Church which you can neuer do yet should you stil come to short of prouing that you stand so much in need of that your Church cannot erre and therefore Praying to Saints Purgatorie Pardons c. must be beleeued because your Church teacheth them God grant that your seduced Clients Iere. 2. 13. may leaue these broken pits that will hold no water and haue recourse to the fountaine of liuing waters the holy scripture thereby to trie euerie spirit whether it be of God or no and not blindly beleeue euery spirit that saith Iohn 4. 1. it is of God Yea but say you If the Church maie erre in faith then might wee aswell be damned being members of the true Church as of the false that not for a wicked life but for a wrong faith which cannot be First you shewe of what force all your proofes are that you are faine so shamelesly to beg that without any proofe which all men know to be most false for is it so strange to you that a meÌ„ber of a true visible church may be daÌ„ned euen for matter of wrong beliefe Are al the members of euery true visible Churhc true and proper members of the mysticall body of Christ Know you not that Saint Paul saith to Galathians Behold I Paul say vnto euerie men that is circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing yee are abolished from Christ whosoeuer are iustified by the law yee are fallen from grace And yet they to whom he spake were members of a true visible Church Therefore the members of a true visible Church may be damned for a wrong beliefe Secondly albiet the true visible Churches may erre daÌ„nably as the church of the Iewes in condemning Christ the Arrians in denying his eternall Godhead yet the true Catholike Church which is the body of Christ cannot erre damnably nor any true member thereof and yet euery member of the militant Church may erre but not damnably for euery error is not damnable no not in matter of faith some build vpon the foundation Timber hay and stuble 1 Cor. 3. 12. c. so long as they build vpon the foundation they themselues shall be saued but shall suffer losse of their worke by the fiery triall of Gods word Confessing therefore the infirmity and ignorance euen of the true members of the true Catholike Church in this flesh which is such no one of them can haue immunity from error yet it will not followe that any true member of the Catholike Church can be damned and yet he may beleeue amisse in some points of faith God open the eies of the blinde that they may discerne your dangerous and damnable sleight You would haue all your disciples hold themselues contented only with the Coliars faith to beleeueth as the Church beleeueth althogh they know not what the Church beleeueth To the intent you may bewitch them this is your sorcerie you tell them the Church cannot erre meaning your Romish church therfore they may securly beleeue whatsoeuer you bid theÌ„ so doing shall vndoubtedly be saued A coÌ„pendious Religion promising vnto men saluation without taking any paines to know the truth of God to search the scriptures to trie the spirits and to discerne of the true faith But what saith the scripture He that beleeueth and is baptized shall be saued he that beleeueth not shall be damned And what must Mark 16. 16. they beleeue that shall be saued That which the Apostles teach what must the Apostles teach All that Christ commanded Then must euery beleeuer discerne the truth of his Matth. 28. 20. faith by the vndoubted commandement of Christ that he may haue vndoubted comfort of his owne saluation Men will not take money for currant before they haue tried it by touch and weight and will any be so desperatly foolish as to beleeue euery spirit and receiue euery doctrine not trying by the touch of scriptures and the weights of Gods sanctuarie whether it be of God or no Yea but S. Paul affirmeth that the Church is the pillar ground of truth And this ought to be a great comfort to all vnâ—earned Catholikes It ought so indeede and to the learned too that the Oracles of God are committed to his Church and there onely the sheepe of God may heare the voice of their Shepheard Howbeit the vnlearned Catholiks shall be much abused if they suppose this Church to be the supposed Church of Rome or thinke that truth is pinned vpon any Iohn 10. 27. one churches sleeue or is indefinitly committed to the whole Church without submission to the trial of scriptures What is truth the scriptures onely shew where that truth is preserued and taught there is the true Church For the Church is the pillar ground of truth By the scriptures therfore all true Catholikes must learn to know the true church and receiue the truth of the scriptures from the mouth and by the ministrie of the church but not vpon the bare and onely cred it of the church For to omit Theophilact who interpreteth truth in this place as opposit to Iewish shadows which sense may very well be followed and so you haue no shew of helpe here Chrysostome vpon the place giueth this sense Hoc est enim quod fidem continet ac praedicationemâ— quippe verit as Ecclesiae columna firmaâ—entum est This is that which keepeth faith and preaching for truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church Where you see the church ministerially keepeth faith and preacheth the word as the Pyramis in Paris did keepe the memorie of your Iesuitical parricide but in a nother sense the truth by Chrysostoms iudgmeÌ„t is the pillar and firmament of the Church And Dyonisius Carthusianus Estque columna firmamentum verit atis id est verit atem Euangelicam fortiter portat c. The pillar and ground of truth saith he that is it doth stroÌ„gly beare the truth of the gospel note the truth of the Gospel which the church hath receiued not any truth inueÌ„ted or taught by the church without or beside the Gospell Therefore out of this place we thus conclude against you The Church of God is the pillar and ground of truth that is beareth the truth by the preaching of the Gospel before men The Church of Rome is not the pillar and ground of truth for it beareth not the â—ruth before men by the preaching of the Gospell but her â—â—ue superstitions Inuentions besides the Gospell and contrary to the Gospell at praier to Saints Purgatory
Pardons Real presence Eare-shrift c. Therefore the Church of Rome is not the church of God The second Reason PAPIST That is the true faith and religion of Christ which the ancient and learned Fathers tanght maintained in the floursshing time of the Primitiue Church that is within the first 600 yeares next after Christ and this is so true that our Aduersaries themselues confesse it For M. Iewell sometime of Sarisbury cried out in this maner O Gregory ô Leo ô Augustine ô Ambrose c if we be deceiued you haue deceiued vs. The Church of England In his chaleng Sermon at Paules crosse also continueth their memorie in euerie Kalender as it doth of the blessed Apostles which fauour no question it would not afford them if it iudged them Heretikes or false teachers And as no Protestant I thinke dare say that they bee damned in hell for hereticall or false doctrine So most sure I am that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation upon them that liued so neere Christ then vpon such as liue now and be partiall in their owne cause PROTESTANT The floure of your reasons is now gone and indeede a floure for the bright beames of truth shining froÌ„ the Sunne of righteousnesse in the firmament of his word hath dimmed the grace and defaced the beautie of this your vaine best reason The second reason comming to rescue the former at vnawares thinking to smite his enemie wounded his fellowe to the heart For if the long continued pompe of your supposed Church be proofe enough that yours for sooth is the true Church and if the priuiledge of the true church which you chalenge to yours be that it cannot erre and consequently we are to beleeue what your Church teacheth what needed you then to haue abated this last 1000 yeares and to appeale to the flourishing time of the Primitiue church within the first 600 years Surely this is a plaine coÌ„fession against your selues that your long coÌ„tinued Church comes much short in dignity credit and authority of those 600 yeares Else why do you not rest contented with your owne testimony as being the preseÌ„t Oracle of the church but are faine to borrowe proofe of the Primitiue Church considering that if long continuance be the matter though your persons be yonger and your age but of yesterday yet by the addition of so many yeares your Church hath a grauer head and surely more wrinckles in her face then in those former times she had If therefore the ancienter testimonies do more stroÌ„gly proue the truth then is theremore certain trial of truth to be fetcht froÌ„ the early beginnings of the church then froÌ„ the long continued doating age as plainly appeareth of your Church And surely so did the Fathers within those 600 yeares they prooued their doctrines and maintained euery truth not by the face of long time but by the authority of the first times wherein Christ and his Apostles vndoubtedly taught the truth and by vndoubted records of diuine inspiration that is the holie scriptures commended the same to all posterity Augustine Epist 19. ad Hieron Ego solis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur c. I haue learned to yeeld only to those books of scripture which are now called Canonical that feare heuer that I firmely beleeue no author of theÌ„ in writing to haue coÌ„mitted anie error others I so reade that how holie or learned soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a matter to bee true because they so thought but because they were able to perswade me either by those canonical authors or by probable reason that it swarneth not from truth And therefore ad Vincentium Donatist Epist 48. Nâ—lâ— contra diuina testimonia c. Haue no will or desire out of the writings of Bishops togather cauils against the diuine testimonies first because this kind of writings is distinguished from the cannon c. But let vs see your reason That is the true faith which the ancient and learned Fathers taught in the first 600 yeares But they were of our religion and not of the Protestants Therefore ours is the true faith and not the Protestants First is your Proposition vniuersall or indefinite If you say The ancient and learned Fathers taught the true faith in all points necessarie to saluation we will not sticke with you but if you say that withall they taught nothing swaruing from the true faith neither can we yeeld it vnto you neither do the Fathers themselues yeeld it one to another neither doth any one of them presume to chalenge so much to him self neither wil your selues I am sure generally also affirme You know the contrary of Tertullian Cyprian and Origene Augustine did not in all things accord with Ierome nor allow whatsoeuer himselfe had written and these things are not vnknowne to you nor vnconfessed by you Wherefore if you will haue your proposition vniuersally taken it is false that whatsoeuer the Fathers taught is the true faith If indefinitly then will it fall out to be onely particular of some things suppose the most things that the ancient learned Fathers taught that they agreed with the true faith So that if you could proue that your Popish faith consisting in the points of your nouelties vnknowne to Christ and his Apostles and of your Apostafie from the true faith did in some points agree with some opinions of the learned Fathers yet would it not follow that yours is the true faith vnlesse you could manifestly proue that the Fathers therein held the true faith For your Popish faith partly hath an apish imitation of some outworne rites of ancient times as Vnctions Exorcismes c. partly carcheth hold of some of their errors as prayer for the dead partly proceedeth on boldly to affirme of those things whereof they spake doubtfully as Purgatory partly peruerteth and abuseth their words against their meanings sometime taking that literally which they meant tropically as Sacrifice Oblation Priest Altar c. sometime wresting their words from that good sense which they beare by proportion of their writings to that bad and absurd sense which since you haue violently drawne them to as Merit Poenitentiam agere Confession Satisfaction c. Contrariwise the Protestants religion is in substance the same which the ancient learned Fathers taught wherein the Protestants therefore follow them because they haue followed the Scriptures as hath bene often mainteined proued and demonstrated to your stopped eares and hardened hearts Briefly the Proposition vniuersally vnderstood is false The Assumption vniuersally vnderstood of all their faith and religion is false of your Popish faith Therefore the conclusion followes not But let vs see how strongly or rather straungely you proue your Proposition First you say it is so true that your aduersaries confesse it for M. Iewell sometime of Sarisburie c. That godly and learned Bishop was confident that you could not bring any one sufficient sentence out of
any Father or Councell for the space of 600. yeares after Christ to proue any of those points named in that chalenge not that he made Fathers or Councels the rule of his faith but rather affirmeth with Augustine Sancta Scriptura nostrae doctrinae regulam De bono viduit cap. 1. The holy scripture pitcheth the rule of our doctrine Rom. 1. 16. figit and if he had found either in Fathers or Councels any thing swaruing from this rule he would haue forsaken them and cleaued to the Scriptures as he hath told you in his learned Apologie We know that the Gospell of Iesus Christ is the power of God vnto saluation and that therein consisteth eternall life And as Paul warneth vs we do not heare no Gal. 1. 8. not an Angel of God though he come from heauen if he go about to pull vs from any part of this Doctrine Secondly you say the Church of England continueth their memorie in the Kalendar as it doth of the blessed Apostles c. What meane you so to ouer-reach doth the Church of England put no difference between them and the Apostles for so much you would imply and must or else it comes too short of your purpose The Church of England preserueth their memorie as of godly and painefull men that bestowed themselues to serue the Church of God but yet it doth not lift them aboue the degree of men and therefore doth not exempt them from erring nor their writings from errors which immunitie is proper to the Scriptures inspired of God and cannot be ascribed to any writings of men neuer so godly or learned so long as they are written onely by a priâ—at spirit Neither is euery teacher that faileth in some point of truth to be condemned as a false teacher much lesse as an heretike and therefore it may be doubted and denied that all that the Fathers of those times haue written is true and yet they not reputed either as heretikes or false teachers Thirdly you say No Protestant you thinke dare say that they are damned in hell No verily and yet you picking out those errors which vnto them were veniall because they built vpon the foundation which is Iesus Christ alone and making them principles of your faith and religion and laying them indeed as another foundation besides Christ may be damned in so doing except you repent Fourthly Most sure you say you are that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ theu vpon such as liue now and are partiall in their owne cause Men of reason in matters of reason may relie vpon men But men of faith in matters of saluation wil relie only vpon Christ the Author finisher and foundation of our faith the Heb. 12. 2 1 Cor. 3. 11. Heb. 2 10. 1 Tim. 2. 5. Act. 7. 37. Iohn 14. 6. Prince and Mediat or of our saluation the only undoubted Prophet and teacher of the true and vndoubted way vnto eternall life in a word the onely way the onely truth the onely life But see with what cunning you deale Your simple sheepe must relie their saluation vpon those Fathers who those Fathers were what they wrote and how they shall vnderstand them you must be their interpreters So in effect they must relie their saluation vpon you which is against your owne rule For you liue now and are iustly to be supposed partiall in your owne cause Againe in this your comparison of persons vpon whom we ought rather to relie our faith marke how slily you shut out Christ and his word and seeke to cast an imputation vpon the Protestants that they teach men to rely their faith vpon them which is as far from them as it is from you to teach your Disciples to relie their faith vpon Christ and his word No no we counsell the faithfull as Christ our Master doth to search the Scriptures and with the Apostle to Iohn 5. 39. build their faith vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Eph 2. 20. whereof Iesus Christ is the head and corner stone Lastly God open your eies to acknowledge the strength of truth which out of your owne mouth beareth witnes against your selfe you say that men ought rather to relie their saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ Ought not then all faithfull men most of all to relie their saluation vppon them that liued neerest vnto Christ And who liued neerer him then the holie Apostles and Euangelistes Or what writinges came more immediatly from him then theirs especially considering that these were chosen by him selfe to be his witnesses vnto all the ends of the world and Act. 1. 8. Eph. 4. 13 vnto the end of the world by the writings inspired of God Wherefore that you may see how willing we are to accorde with you in the truth we confesse and graunt that faithfull men ought to relie their saluation rather vpon Psal 19. 4. Rom. 10. 18. those that saw the Lord Iesus Christ and were his witnesses and haue stretched out the line of their writinges to the worlds end theÌ„ vpon any or all that haue beene since whether they be Councels Popes Bishops or Doctors of what place holines or learning soeuer Thus forcibly haue you proued your Proposition that whatsoeuer the fathers of the first 600. years wrot is thetrue faith for that must be the extent of your proposition or else it will not serue your turne the best and strongest part of your proofe which you haue set in the last place makes most against your selfe as hath bin shewed Now then let vs come to your Assumption PAPIST But as certaine it is that they were of our religion and not of the Protestants which is so euident that no man which peruseth their works can make anie doubt thereof and to giue an instance Saint Austen that liued 1200. yeares agoe and was so wonderfull for learning that happilie since the Apostles time the world had neuer his like one whome the Protestantes also soeme most to admire and like of and this ancient holie and learned Father beleeued and taught them yea and the whole Church of his time aâ— we beleeue teach now If any maÌ„ make doubt hereof let him read his 22. book and 8. chap. De ciuitate Dei he shal find as much as I affirme concerning prayer to Saints reuerence to Relikes and Pilgrimage to holie places three of the most odious points as they thinke in all our religion PROTESTANT To proue that the Fathers of the first 600. were of your religion and not of the Protestants you tell vs that one of them S. Augustine was so Doth this proue that all were so Next how proue you that Saint Augustine was so because as you pretend he held some points of your religion as Praier to Saints reuerence to Relikes Pilgrimage to holie places praier for the dead Do these points coÌ„prehend al your religion Againe may it not
be that Augustine being a man erred in some points and you make choice of those his errors as most suitable to your religioÌ„ yet otherwise Augustine coÌ„firme the Protestants religion by his testimonie as indeed he doth Such force is in your forcible reasons But let vs see how you proue that Augustine was of your religion in the three points aboue named Praier to Saints reuerence to relikes and pilgrimage to holie places you referre him that doubteth hereof to his 22. booke and 8 chap. De ciuitate Dei Where in your sense we finde not one of these and some not at all No one word in all that chapter of praying to Satuts and least as you do any man should falsly so conceiue Augustine in the 10. chapter following where he speaketh of the same matter still giueth this expresse caueat Nos martiribus nostris non templasicut Dijs c. We build no temples to our Martyrs as vnto Gods but memories or monuments as vnto dead men whose spirits liue with God neither doe we there erect alters vpon which we may sacrifice to the Martyrs but we offer sacrifice to God onelie the Martyrs God and ours at the which sacrifice as men of God who in his confession haue ouercome the world in their place and order they are named yet are they not prayed vnto by the Priest that sacrificeth What could be more plainly spoken against praier to Saints and who but a Papist would haue alledged Augustine for praier to Saints who hath so expresly gainesaid it Reuerent vse of the Relikes of Martyrs by honestly laying vp their bones and continuing their memories Augustine there acknowledgeth but of Popish reuerence to Relikes by kneeling kissing or trust in them Augustin hath not a syllable nay he sheweth plainly in the last words of that chap that the faith and trust of Christian was not in the Martyrs but in Christ for whom the Martyrs and namelie Stephen shed his bloud Of resorting to the memories of Martyrs Augustine there speaketh but in what sort It pleased God for confirmation of that faith wherein the Martyrs died at their memories to do many miracles where God lifted vp the signe of his power thither the faithfull resorted what is this to your Popish Pilgrimage to Relikes Shrines whereof there is now no certainty whose they were nor any miracles wrought by the power of God where they are and if the true Relikes of true Martyrs were there yet to suppose more holines there or more ready acceptaÌ„ce with God or accesse vnto him there then in other places is contrary to the expresse rule of our Sauiour Christ in the 4. of Iohn wherefore Iohn 4. 21. 23. the cause of such resort now ceassing and being indeed not needfull as Augustine in the entrance of that chapter saith that before the world did beleeue Miracles were necessarie that the worlde might beleeue but now whosoeuer inquireth after strange wonders that he maie beleeue is himselfe a strange wonder who when the world beleeueth himselfe beleeueth not The cause I say ceasing the effect ceaseth as when God left to sende downe Manna the people gaue ouer looking after it neither did the godly Israelites looke any longer to the brasen serpent then while it was erected by Gods appointment for them to looke on that they might bee healed To conclude for Prayer to Saints reuorence to Relikes Popish Ios 5. 12. pilgrimage to holy places in your sense and as you practise them Augustin in al that chapter hath not one word Let Numb 21. 8 9. vs now see how happie you are in the rest that speede so ill in these PAPIST Againe the cause is so cleere that our Aduersaries do confesse it as might be shewed in manie questions two or three will I speake of Caluine cannot denie but that blessed Monica S. Augustines Inst lib. 3. cap. 5. Sec. 10. mother desired to haue her soule praied for that her son satisfied her request accordingly These be his words Augustine in his book of CoÌ„fessions telleth how that his mother Monica earnestly requested to be remembred at the Altar at such times as the mysteries were in celebrating a doating request which her sonne did not examine according to the rule of Scripture and a little before in the same place thus whereas my aduersaries quoth he obiect against me that it was a receiued custome 1300. yeares past to pray for the deade I likewise demande of them what worde of God what reuelation what example they had so to do out of which words we see how hee confesseth that the Primitiue Church beleeued as we do about Praier for the dead which is the thing that here I intend to proue And though malapertlie he contemneth them all as though forsooth they wanted the word of God yet what man of reason and iudgment can thinke that they lacked sufficient warrant for that their beleefe and common practise whatsoeuer he saith to the contrarie PROTESTANT Your Aduersaries do confesse that Augustine did fauour allow some kind of praier for the dead but your aduersaries deny that Augustine allowed praier for the dead as now the Popish Church doth hold and teach it For first touching Purgatory Augustine resolueth not certainly whether there be any or no the summe of that he saith comes to no more De ciu Dei lib. 21. cap. 26. then this I reproue it not because peraduenture it is true or if he do resolue any thing it is quite against it as there is no middle place for anie that he may be any where but with the diuel De pen. merit remiss that is not with Christ Againe The first place the faith of Catholikes by diuine authoritie beleeueth to be the kingdome of heauen The second hel Of any third we are vtterly ignorant nay we caÌ„not Hypognost lib. 5 find it in the holie scriptures your popish praiers for the dead supposing that there is a Purgatorie either Augustines praier for the dead was another matter then your Popish praier to wit a well wishing to them out of the charity of the liuing not amending the condition of the dead but testifying the hope that the liuing faithfull haue of that mercy which the dead in the Lord find with him expressed by this wishing praier so he affirmeth in his praier for his mother Monica And I beleeue that thou hast alreadie done that which I aske of Conses lib. 9. cap. 13. thee but o Lord approue the voluntaries or vvishes of my mouth or else Augustine had no better resolutioÌ„ touching this prayer then he had touching Purgatorie which is none at all as appeared by the slender proofe he makes thereof aledging only the book of Macchabees not allowed of the auncients for Canonical scripture as not greatly trusting to that flying De cura promâ—r cap. to the authority of long continued custome and he is so doubtfull of the matter that he dare not
himselfe the mercie of God forgiuing his sinnes and haue his conscience in regard of those sinnes still troubled It is therefore vntrue and sheweth want of faith that you say you thinke all the sinnes that come to minde should trouble a Christian mans conscience And yet it agreeth well with your Popish spirit which is the Spirit of bondage and not of adoption of feare and not of promise We say indeed that death is the Rom. 8. 15. 6 23. wages of all sin and therefore all sinne is mortall and damnable but we say that no sinne shall be laide to the charge of Gods Rom. 8. 33. 34. chosen whom none shall condemne because God himselfe iustifieth them Christ died and rose againe for them Secondly you obiect that the same scripture which commandeth the confession of some sinnes commandeth as well the confession of all It is very true that the scripture commandeth to confesse all sinnes but to God Of confession to men there is no other commandement but generall Confesse your sinnes one to another and pray one for another Which Iames 5. 16. giues as much authority to euery brother as to a Priest to heare confessions For of confession in the eare of a Priest you can shew no tittle in the scripture Howbeit as by the aduise and counsell of holy Scripture Christians are taught to ease their oppressed consciences into the bosoms of their faithfull brethren to the end they may be partakers of their comfort and prayers so we thinke it also a godly course and a ready meane to find comfort if the sheepe of the flocke do open their woundes to their pastor who hath wisdome and faithfulnes to powre in wine and oile that is to minister vnto them the word of admonition and consolation and this is the meaning of our Communion booke but what is this to Popish Eare shrift Yea but the booke prescribeth also how after confession the Priest must absolue him and the maner of words You shoulde haue dealt faithfully if you had set downe the whole truth Our booke appointeth the Priest first to pray vnto our Lord Iesus Christ that he would grant vnto the sicke person truely repenting and beleeuing in him forgiuenes of all his sinnes as acknowledging it to be the onely right of the Lord Iesus Christ to forgiue sins Secondly presupposing the sicke man truely to repent and to beleeue in Christ it appointeth the Priest by the authority of our Lord Iesus Christ who hath left power to his Church to absolue repentant sinners which power is theÌ„ executed by the Priest to absolue the sicke from all sinnes To absolue I say not to forgiue For Christ onely forgiueth as our booke there vnderstandeth forgiuenesse and as it is vnderstood in the Lords prayer and as it is vnderstood in the Lords prayer and is interpreted by the Prophet Dauid Psalme 32. 1. 2. By couering and not imputing sinnes The Church by her ministers absolueth that is declareth to the repentant and beleeuing by authority of Christs promise Sent. lib. 4. Dist 18. Nec ideo seq that their sinnes are forgiuen So saith Peter Lombard This truelie we maie saie and thinke that onelie God remitteth and reteineth sinnes and yet hath giuen power to his church to binde and loose but he bindeth and looseth after one sort and the church after another For he bindeth by himselfe onelie so hee forgiueth sinne because he both clenseth the soule from the inwarde blot and looseth it from the debt of eternall death But he hath not granted so much to the Priests to whom he hath onelie giuen power to bind and loose that is to shew that â—en are either bound or loosed And Bonauenture in his disputes vpon it expounding the words of Ambrose Sacerdos officium exhibet â—ed nullius potestatis iura exercet That is the Priest executeth his office but exerciseth not the right of anie power writeth thus For Ambrose meanes to saie that sinnes are said to be remitted of the Priest not in manner of a doer but in manner of a minister Against both Ambrose Non per modum efficientis sed per modum ministrantis Conâ—â—l â—rid Sess 4. cap. 6. can 9. and your Maister of the sentences your Tridentine councell crieth Anathema giuing to the Priest in their sacramentall absolution not a bare ministrie to pronounce and declare but a iudiciall act whereby the sentence is pronounced by him as by the Iudge So making the comfort of him that is absolued to depend not onely vpon Christs promise but vpon the person of the Priest absoluing which is farre from the doctrine or meaning of our Church either in the Communion booke or any where else And therefore what affinity soeuer bee betweene your Latine words and our English there is no affinity betweene that comfortable absolution which our booke appoineth Gods minister in the name of Christ to publish to the humble and repentant sinner and your Popish and Pharisaical absolution Lastly this order of confession and absolution as they are set downe in the communion booke is indeede some part of the practise of our relition but no principle of our religion and therefore you do much abuse your Clients when you make them beleeue that this and other orders are any of the principles of our religion PAPIST Thirdly the booke alloweth the signe of the Crosse in Baptisme why then is it not likewise lawfull in other things What word of The signe of the Crosse Images God willeth the one and forbiddeth the other and if the signe of the Crosse be good why not also other images especially of Christ crucified That teâ—t which they can bring to iustific the one vvill also serue for the other and that which they shall alleage to ouerthrovv the image of the Crucifixe will giue small rest to the signe of the Crosse PROTESTANT It is false that you say that the booke alloweth the signe of the Crosse in Baptisme That signe by the ordinance of the booke hath nothing to do in Baptisme It is onely made a signe of confession after Baptisme which vse our Church hauing receiued as continued from antiquitie in that manner without interruption considering how notably it serued the faithfull in old times to manifest their confession of Christ crucified thought meete still to retaine But as for reuiuing any other vse of it after so long disuse our Church thought it might rather tend to superstition then to edification the rather because your Popish confidence in such bodily exercises had greatly corrupted the primitiue simplicitie of the vulgar vse thereof among the first Christians There is no word of God that willeth the vse of it nor anie word of God that I know that forbiddeth the bare vse of it It grew out of a desire the faithfull had to testifie before the enemies of Christ their faith in Christ crucified In the vse thereof it seemeth they felt further comfort not hauing confidence in the
signe but in Christ whom they confessed by that signe Neither was any of them euer heard to say Aue cruxspes vnie◠Hatle ô crosse our onely hope As touching the match of equalitie that you make betweene the signe of the Crosse and the Crucifixe you may well thinke that the ancient church being so long without the image of the crucifixe namely aboue 600. yeares and yet so early vsing Sexta Synod Can 82. the signe of the Crosse did acknowledge no small difference betweene the one and the other A transient signe to signifie in gesture that which the word signifieth in speech and that onely for meanes of confession differeth much from an image made to represent the Sonne of God whose Godhead no colours nor proportion can expresse whose Manhood is not the whole of his person whose nature person and suffering is sufficiently yea abundantly described in the Scriptures for all men to see and heare neither is it possible for any art to make that visible in the image of the crucifixe which is to be knowne beleeued remembred of Christ and his sufferings according to the description of his word To leaue the Scriptures follow a crucifixe is to go from the Sunne in the firmament to the signe of the sunne painted in a table To adde to the word the helpe of the crucifix is to accuse the infufficiencie of the word The signe of the Crosse had no such vse in the beginning neither hath now with vs and therefore differeth largely from the signe of the crucifixe But it is worth the marking how barely you bring into comparison first the vse of the signe of the Crosse among vs and the vse thereof in poperie Do we teach to trust in that signe Do we pray to it do we worship it do we blesse with it do we fence arme our selues with it these are your Idolatries which you slily passe ouer as if there were a like vse of the signe of the Crosse with vs and with you Papists Secondly the signe of the Crosse and the image of the crucifixe as if you did only make the image of the crucifixe historically and not to worship it When we commit idolatrie with the signe of the Crosse then compare our vse thereof with your idolatries to the image of the crucisixe Lastly remember heere also that which I spake of the former The signe of the Crosse is only an indifferent externall rite among vs It is neither principle nor second nor third nor fourth nor any point of our Religion PAPIST Fourthly in Baptisme they vse Godfathers and abrenuntiation Why not also other ceremonies namely holy Oile and Exorcisme Holy oyle Exorcisme Reade the Scriptures and as little there is for the first as the last Aske the auncient Fathers and as much is found for the last as for the first PROTESTANT In the administration of the holy Sacraments the neerer we come to the institution of Christ the more chast and incorrupt we esteeme the administration of them to be and therefore haue taken that libertie which the Church of God euer vsed no further to follow the example of former times in matter of ceremone then we do euidently see to serue for edification By which rule no doubt sundrie ceremonies of auncient time vsed afterward grew out of vse as namely in Baptisme the tasting of milke and honie with certaine other ceremonies either for come linesse or instruction taken vp in the primitiue Church which afterwards were layd downe againe as the times and growth of the Church fawe most conuenient As touching Godfathers and abrenuntiation for that the one hath a good vse as well to prouide that only the children of beleeuing parents be brought to Baptisme as also to commit the care of the infants education to men for godlinesse and sound faith approued and the other expresseth the couenant on the behalfe of the infant baptized wherewith he standeth charged the mention whereof serueth as well to call to the mindes of others before baptized what they owe to God by the couenant betweene God and them sealed in baptisme as also to enter the obligation of the infants faith and obedience whereunto as soone as his yeares admit he must know himselfe to be bound by the law of his baptisme Therfore our Church of a care that all things may be done orderly and to edification and that the end of Baptisme may be attained hath vpon good reason continued these two When you shall be able to shew vnto vs as serious profitable vse of your Exorcisme and Oyle then may we enter into consulation whether in so lawfull libertie to alter or refuse vnnecessarie ccremonies it were not much better to reason you haue so superstitiously profaned them besides the slender vse to leaue them onely to you then after so long a farewell to giue them new entertainement specially Scripture saying nothing for them and the auncient Fathers although they testifie of the vse of these as also some others by you neglected yet in matter of ceremonie allow freedome to euery Church in euery time These also are no principles of our Religion PAPIST Fiftly the booke alloweth the vse of the Surplice in their Seruice and Sacramonts vvhy then may not Copes Vestiments and Copes Vestiments such like be admitted also For no more can they shew for the one then vve for the other PROTESTANT Multitude of needlesse ceremonies is alwayes a burthen and therefore a bondage both in the yoke of obseruation and also in the taile of superstition whereunto through blindnesse and carnall deuotion men commonly fall And therefore our church though it retaine the Surplice as most remote both in the originall and perpetuall vse from your superstition and that onely for comelinesse without putting any religion in it yet both is and ought to be sparing in affecting the multitude of your theatricall or stage-like vestiments which would rather disguise then a dorne the Church of Christ And herein our church hath followed the rule of Scripture which albeit of loue and for peace it teacheth to suffer some things not necessary yet streightly warneth the church not to be intaugled againe in the yoke of boudage And so there is Scripture against many and those Gal. 5. 1. before refused more then against one and that neuer out of vse And heere againe I may not forget still to put you in mind that far it is from our church to esteeme the surplice or any vse thereof as a principle or any part of our religion PAPIST Sixtly in the Collect vpon Michaelmas day they confesse that the Angels defend and protect our life how then can they denie Praying to Saints that they know our necessities and praiers and so no reason can they alleage why we may not pray to them as well as we do to our mortall brethren PROTESTANT Protect is not in the Collect but only succour and defend For we yeeld only a ministerie to
Sess 3. cap. 1. Can. 1. body is in the sacrament Circūscriptiuè But your Trent Councell saith that the body of Christ is conteined in the sacrament of the Eucharist Wherfore although Luther had an opinion of a Real presence by himself which he could not tell how to expresse nor would haue any disputation about the maner yet in as much as he was farre from allowing your Popish charme whereby you worke your monstrous Transubstantiation nor helde any carnall eating neuer alleage Martin Luthers Real presence to giue countenance to your carnall presence The Apologie may well acknowledge him an excellent man sent of God to giue light to the world and yet not allow of his error in any thing neither will we say that euery wrong beliefe euen in matter of the sacrament bringeth damnation to a godly man otherwise holding the foundation And lastly Martine Luthers priuate opinion is no principle of our religion as you very well know PAPIST These things being so with what conscience can the Protestants iustlie exclaime against vs for defending a speciall confession of our sinnes absolution of the Priest the vse of Images and the picture of Christ crucified the holie ceremonies of oile and exorcisme copes and holie vestiments that Angels know our praiers and may be praied vnto that Christs soule descended into hell for the deliuerie of the holy Fathers that died before his sacred Passion the Real presence of Christ in the sacrament when as all these points either in expresse termes or by necessarie consequence be gathered out of the grounds of their owne Religion PROTESTANT These things being so that no one of the points mentioned is any principle of our Religion nor in any one of the points which we acknowledge do we agree with the Papists and the last of the seauen is none of ours with what conscience could a Papist go about to raise a reason for Popish idolatrie out of the principles of our religion in the end neither build vpon any principle of our Religion nor proue any agreement betweene Popish confession and absolution and that which the Church of England vseth betweene the signe of the Crosse as it is vsed in the Church of England and Popish Images betweene Godfathers and Abrenunciation and popish oile and exorcisme as now they are betweene the decencie of the Surples and the superstition of Popish vestemints betweene the doctrine of some Protestants touching the article of descending into hel Popish Limbus no nor yet betweene Martin Luthers Real presence and Popish carnal presence wheras no one of these Popish points can either in expresse terms or by any necessary cōsequēce be gathered either out of any principle orany practise or ceremonie in our religion as hath been shewed PAPIST The Fourth reason That is the true Church which hath the scriptures on their side and expoundeth them in that sense and meaning which was intended by the holie Ghost and none can deny but al this is verified of the Catholike Church and not of the Protestant as a fewe plaine arguments shall make manifest First therefore no reason in the world can the Protestants aleage to proue that the scriptures be theirs or to iustifie their interpretation which we cannot bring also for vs. For let them pretend conference of places recourse to the fountaines of the Greeker Hebrue or what else they will all that we can say for our selues and with a◠great probability as they and so in any iudgmet not palpablypartial we nothing inferior On the cōtoary we to maintaine our expositiō beside all other helps cite the consent of ancient Fathers the cōmon practise of Gods Church the decrees of generall Councels none of which they will stand to and therefore in all equity and reason wee passing much superiour can we then lacke the true sense of scripture that haue all these to backe our interpretation specially that of Gods Church in generall councels or can the Protestants haue it that be destitute of all these as their deniall of them doth euidentlie proue and conuince PROTESTANT This forcible Reasoner seemeth now as if he would come to vs and ioyne issue with vs to be tryed by the Scriptures whether the Popish Church or our Church be the true Church But surely if there be no more force in his reason then plainenes in his dealing this reason wil be like his fellowes and so proue neither forcible nor plaine For when the reckoning of his reason is cast vp he calleth backe the triall of the true Church from the scriptures to his pretended Fathers and Councels and againe from them to Gods Church that is in his meaning the Popish Church from whence all vseth to be deuolued to the Pope And so in conclusion the question being whether the Popish Church be the true Church we must be tried by the Pope who were much to blame if he would not say that his owne Church is the true Church for euen theeues will say that they are honest men Your owne Cannon law hath prouided that in all matters of faith all men yea euen all Bishops must referre themselues to the Pope Quoties c. As often as anie matter Caus 24. q. 1 of faith is debated I thinke that all our brethren and fellow Bishops ought to referre the matter to none but to Peter that is to the authoritie of his name and honour What is the authority of Peters name and honour but the Pope and therefore the Glosse there setteth downe in the margent It is the Popes office to determine a question moued about faith And Thomas Aquinas It belongeth to faith to sticke to the Popes determination Opuse con error Graec. it matters of faith yea and in those things also that belong to good manners If then in matter of faith or maners we cannot agree vpō sense of scripture the Pope must strike the stroke which he will be sure shall not hurt himselfe So very fitly agreeth vnto you that which Athanasius speaketh against Orat. 1. con Arria◠the Arrians They presume to determine of faith and being themselues guiltie and obnoxious to indgment like vnto Caiaphas they vsurpe the office of indging These are the men that will proue their Church to be the true Church by hauing the scriptures on their side but they will be the interpretors of scriptures by the mouth of their Pope Well go too though vnder the bare pretence of scriptures you meane to bring in the Pope yet let vs see how you proue that the popish Church which you falsly call the Catholike Church hath the scriptures on her side and expoundeth them by the sense intended by the holy Ghost Your first argument is onely a vaine brag Forsooth you can bring any reason for your expositiōs that the Protestāts can bring for theirs as conference of places recourse to the fountaines and what else they will and with as great probabilitie as they Why then do you not vse to follow
that course in trying out the true meaning of the scriptures Why do you Trid. Concil Sess 4. Dec. 2. without all conference of places tie all men to such a sense onely as the holy mother Church that is your Popish Church holdeth to whom you say it belongeth to iudge of Trid. Concil ibidem the true sence of scriptures or whereupon all the Fathers consent in one which you know to be imposible to finde Why do you exclude the originall Bibles and bind all men in expositions to your vulgare Latine as authenticall and vpon no pretence to be refused Whatsoeuer you boast your owne coÌ„sciences tell you that conference of places and recourse to the fountaines will do your cause more harme then good And heere I wish the reader to obserue how sly lie you insinuate that in conference of places recourse to the fountaines or any other help that we vse there is onely probility and therfore these meanes will not serue there is no rest till you come to that which you call Gods Church in general councels which in conclusion shall be all laied in the Popes lap of which pierlesse meanes to know the vndoubted sense of scripture it is maruaile that Augustine in his bookes De Doctrina Christiana haÌ„dling that point at large forgatto speak specially if as you pretend this be the onely sure way that worthy Father spent his time belike in those meanes that haue onely a probability in them as the Phrase of scripture the circumstances of places comparison with other places analogie of faith c. And neuer thought of that which by your saying is worth all the rest As you haue onely boasted of conference of places and recourse to the fountaines so do you also of the consent of auncient Fathers whereunto your selues will not be bound For when Cardinal Caietane as Andradius Dcfens fid .. Trid. lib. 2. reporteth professeth that sometimes he will inteprete the scriptures against the straeme of the Doctors and exhorteth the readers to trie his writings not by other mens preiudice but by context of scripture some accused him for it as a fautor of the Lutherans But Andradius defendes him and giues his reasons First because the Fathers in infinit places specially of the old testamet leauing the literall sense which he confesseth doth onely serue to proue doctrine runne vpon other senses Heere a man may freely depart from their exposition and search for the literall sense Secondly because the Fathers very ofteÌ„ seeking for the true sense of the scriptures haue giuen senses very diuerse and vnlike one to another which if it be true when will you finde the consent of the Fathers about the sense of Scripture Therefore Andraduis concludes that no man is bound to their expositions but is at free libertie forsaking them all to trie what he can do by Gods help and to find out another new sense vnlike to the ancient Fathers expositions Be not offended with him he doth you more seruice then you are ware of For now you shal be at liberty to put vpon the scripture what sense you will though it be against the streame of the Fathers Thus you followe the coonsent of the ancient Fathers to whose sleeue when it comes to the iumpe you will not be pinned Andradius to serue your turne can alleage Augustines iudgment Epist 3. ad Fortunat. alleaged Dist 9. Can. Neque Nobis enim licebit c. For it shall bee lawfull for vs sauing the honorable respect which is due to the holy Fathers to mislike and reiect something in their writings if peraduenture we find that they haue otherwise iudged then the truth will beare by Gods help vnderstood either of others or of our selues Whereunto we will also adde what the same Augustine saith De vnitat Eccles cap. 10. Nemo mihi dicat c. Let no man say to me Or what saied Donatus to me or what saith Parmenianus or Pontius or anie of them for xe may not consent no not to Catholike Bishops if perhaps they be any where deceiued So that they haue held any opinioÌ„ against the Canonical scriptures May not these testimonies of Augustine as wel be alleaged held good on our part as on yours To conclude in this point against your appeale to Scriptures you vsually obiect that Heretikes alleage scriptures It is true and Diuels too but corrupted and Christ alleageth them against the Diuel and bids all men search them But do not heretickes also alleage the Fathers as boldly as you that call your selues Catholikes you cannot be ignorant of the mouthie clamor of Dioscorus the Euty chian hereticke in the Councell of Chalcedon I haue the testimonie Concil Chalced. Act. 1. of the auncient Fathers Athanasius Gregorie and Cyril in manie places I am cast out with the Fathers I defend the Fathers opinions I transgresse not in anie thing c. If we may not build vpon Scriptures because heretikes alleage them much lesse may we vpon Fathers which heretikes also alleage Your next meane is The common practice of Gods Church Indeede this rule will serue your turne well For what meane you by Gods Church Forsooth the Popish church So then no interpretation of Scripture may bee good that crosseth any practice of the Popish church so you shall bee sure to keepe all whole You should in wisedom haue concealed this as a mysterie among your selues For what is it else but a conspiracie that whatsoeuer the Scripture saith in words it must at no hand bee vnderstoode to be against Popish practise By this tyrannie your Popes haue gotten the start fall the world in so much that though he runne Dist â—0 Si Papa to hell himselfe and draw innumerable soules with him yet no mortall man may presume to reprooue him because he is to iudge all and none to iudge him Follow him to hell you that will we will follow our Lord Iesus as his word leadeth vs. For him we knowe to be the way the truth and the life Thus notably you proue that you haue the true sense of the Scriptures and therefore are the true Church Yours is the true sense because it is confirmed by your owne practise And why so Forsooth you say so What is this else but aske my fellow if I be a theefe First you set vp a wicked practise then you peruert the Scriptures to maintaine it and afterward prooue your interpretation of Scriptures by your practise Your practise is good Why the Scripture as you vnderstand it is for your practise And why must the Scripture be so vnderstoode because your practise so requires First you get both swords into your hands then you prooue it by Ecce due gladij behold heere two swords First Extrau cont de maior obed cap. Vnam sanctam you get aboue Emperours and Kings then you prooue it by Inprincipio non in principijs in the beginning not in the beginnings Such is your practise and such
are your expositions Your last meanes is the Decrees of generall Councels Can you bring vs the Decrees of generall councels touching all Scriptures what sense they doe and ought to beare If not then belike there is no knowne sense of any other Scriptures then such as generall Councels haue expounded the rest are buried in obscurity But Augustine will not yeeld to that who among other meanes to finde out the true interpretation of Scriptures aduising diligently to search for both De Doctr. Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. such precepts of good life and rules of faith as are plainely set downe in the Scriptures whereof the more a man findes the more capable he is vnderstand the Scriptures yeelds this reason of his aduise In his enim c. For in those words which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are found al those things which containe faith and maners of life Next do generall Councels all agree in one in this also Augustine is a witnes against you writing against the Donatistes who pleaded Cyprians letters Cyprians sentence Cyprians councell But Augustine preferreth the holy Scripture aboue all the writings of Bishops yea aboue all generall Councels allowing the Scriptures alone to haue certaintie and vndoubted truth in them but all the writings of Bishops yea the determinations of Councels to be subiect to the correction of other Bishops after them and likewise of other and later Councels his wordes touching the Councels are Ipsa enim concilia c. For the verie Councels De baptis cont Douat lib. 2. cap. 3. which are held through euerie Region or Prouince doe without all doubt giue place to the authoritie of plenarie or generall Councels which are held from out of all the Christian world and the verieplenarie or generall Councels the former oftentimes are amended by the later when by any experiment of things that is open which was kept close and that is knowen which did lie hid What could haue beene more plainely spoken to bring into order not onely all mens writings but euen generall Councels also to be iudged by the Scriptures and not to iudge ouer the Scriptures Wherefore were it true that you so vainlie boast of that you had the consent of ancient Fathers and the Decrees of generall Councels for you yet were these no sure foundation to build our faith vpon Neither doe wee take it to be any disgrace vnto vs that we refuse to receiue our faith and vnderstanding in the mysterie of godlinesse from men because wee feare the curse which is against the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arme yea rather wee account it an honour to vs both before God and man Ierem. â— â— that wee together with the whole true church of God are built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone that we trie euerie spirit by the Scriptures whether it be of God or no that we prooue Eph. 2. 20. 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 1. Thes 5. 21. Act. 17. 11. Ioh. 5. 39. Esa 8. 20. all things as the men of Beraea did by searching the Scriptures according to the commaundement of Christ and holde that which is good that we haue recourse to the law and to the testimonie and whosoeuer speake not according to that word we holde them to be in darknesse and to haue no light in them From this hold you shall neuer driue vs and yet thanks be to God you haue hitherto beene beaten at your owne weapon and for the principall points of faith and religion haue beene put to silence by a cloud of testimonies both out of auncient Fathers and Councels howsoeuer your brasen foreheads cannot blush nor your leaden hearts relent but still you will crie Fathers Fathers Councels Councels PAPIST Secondly to giue more light and force to the former reason concerning the aucthoritie of Fathers I say that one or two or a few of them may be deceiued and therefore such particular opinions we admit not and so refuse S. Cyprian about rebaptization so we make no doubt but the vniforme and generall consent of them liuing in diuerse and farre distant places and at diuerse times cannot but proceede from the Spirit of all truth that gouerneth the Church and therefore S. Austine speaking of the Fathers that liued Contr. Iuli. lib. 2. cap. 10. before his time hath these excellent words That which they found in the Church they helde fast that which they learned they taught that which they receiued of their fathers the same they deliuered to their Children S. Paul likewise saith that Christ hath Eph. 4. 11. 14. giuen Pastors and Doctors that flourished in the primitiue church and the Protestants cannot deuie but that with their pens and labours they did defend the faith against the Arians Pelagians Donatistes and manie more such pestilent heretikes PROTESTANT First we haue shewed you before that by the iudgement of Cardinall Caietane whom Andradius defends in it it is lawfull yea and necessarie sometimes in interpretation of Scriptures to leaue the streame of the Fathers and follow a diuerse interpretation from them all which might at no hand be admitted if as you presume wherein they generally consent they had beene all guided by the spirit of truth Andradius doth not onely say so but giues good reason for it The literall sense of Scripture saith he doth onelie yeeld arguments to confirme points of religion But the Fathers in infinite staies of the old testament chieflie do leaue the literall sense and follow the tropologicall or allegoricall sense In deciding of Doctrines then which is to be done by the litterall sense what helpe shall we haue from the consent of Fathers who very seldome giue the litterall sense Another reason hee giues that the Fathers in giuing the sense of Scriptures haue giuen verie diuerse sense and vnlike one to another Where then shall wee finde that generall and vniforme consent that you speake of Secondly the spirit of all truth neither guideth the whole church nor any member therof otherwise or by any other instinct then by from the holy Scriptures whereby euery spirit is to be tried So farre then as the Fathers either seuerally or ioyntly doe accord with the manifest truth of Scriptures we follow them without doubting whatsoeuer they deliuer swaruing manifestly from the Scriptures we leaue what they haue probably spoken we receiue as probable alwaies reuerencing their antiquitie gifts and labours but not accounting their iudgements the rule of our faith Thirdly you much abuse S. Augustine in drawing his words which yet serue not your turne from his meaning Lib. 3. cap. 7. manifestly set downe in other places Depeccat merit remiss hauing before alleaged against the Pelagians Cyprian Ierome he addeth this caueat I haue not recited these things to anie such end as if we leaned to the sentences of anie disputers whatsoeuer they were as to Canonicall authoritie but that
it may appeare that from the beginning vnto the present time wherein this noueltie sprang vp this point of originall sinne hath beene so constantlie kept within the faith of the church c. Howbeit the most cleare and full authoritie of this opinion is eminent in the holie Canonicall bookes Likewise ad Bonifac. cont duas epist Pelag. Lib. 4. cap. 8. I thinke it pertaineth to our charge not onclie to bring the holie Canonicall Scriptures witnesses against them which alreadie wee haue sufficientlie done but also out of the bookes of holis men who haue handled them before vs with famous commendation great glorie to bring some documetns or euidences not for that the authoritie of anie disputer is equalled by vs to the Canonicall bookes but to admonish such who thinke that these fellowes say somewhat after what sort the Catholike Bishops following the holie Scriptures haue spoken of these points before the nouell and vaine words of those men In like maner vsing S. Augustines words we say to you We thinke it a part of our charge not onely to bring as witnesses against you the Canonicall Scriptures which alwayes we doe in the first place but also to produce testimonies out of the writings of holy Fathers not that wee mathch their authorie with the Canonicall Scriptures but to let them see who thinke you say somewhat the before your nouell and vaine boasting the Catholike Bishops and Fathers following the Scriptures haue taught as wee doe Which in all the fundamentall points of religion hath been againe and againe prooued vnto you In which points only Augustine maketh reckoning of the consent of Catholike writers Other points saith he there are about which euen the learnedest and best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree Cont. Iul. Pelag lib. 1. among themselues alwaies sauing whole the frame of faith and in some one matter some say better and more trulie then others But this about which we now deale belongeth to the very foundations of faith speaking of originall sinne in children When following Augustines example you first alleadge Scripture and then annexe the consent of Fathers as treading in the steps of the Scriptures wee will honour the Fathers iudgements for the Scriptures sake which they follow This is all which Augustine did or requires others to doe Neither do Augustines words by you alleadged serue your turne For what if the Fathers did constantly hold the Doctrine of originall sinne spread ouer all men and hauing receiued it from their Fathers so deliuered it to their posteritie Doth it follow that Augustine beleeued it either onely or principally because they did constantly teach it You heard the contrary out of Augustine before that that point is clearely and fully to be prooued by the Canonical Scriptures which euen his owne words in this very place doe testifie They all found it before any of them deliuered it Where did they finde it but in the Scriptures The consent of Fathers may helpe to vnderstand the Scriptures but it is no rule to vnderstand them by but rather the Scriptures are the rule to iudge of those truthes wherein the Fathers do consent Lastly Paul indeed saith that Christ gaue vnto his Church pastors and teachers that we should not be caried about with euery vvind of doctrine but Paul saith not that Pastors and Doctors may cary vs about with what doctrines they list or that we haue no libertie to trie their doctrine whether it be of God or no. God the Father saith of his Son Iesus Christ This is my well-beloued sonne heare him Yet our Sauior Christ commandeth his Church to search the Scriptures Paul was called to be an Apostle not by man but by Iesus Christ yet did the men of Beraea trie his doctrine by the Scriptures and are therefore commended by the holy Ghost Will you then be aboue our Sauiour Christ and his holy Apostle Paul to challenge vnto your selues vnder the name of Pastors and Doctors an irregular authoritie to leade the Church of God whither you list and must they followe you blindfold till you fall into the pit For while you pretend to assume this prerogatiue for the Fathers as Pastors and Doctors you meane by that sleight cunningly to conuey it to your selues But if he that prophocieth must prophecie according to the proportion Rom. 12. 6. Gal. r. 8. 1. Tim. r. 13. Tit. 1. 9. of faith if we may not receiue strange doctrine from an Apostle or Angel if Timothie be charged to keepe the true paterne of wholesome words if all Bishops must hold fast the wholesome word according to doctrine if we be charged not to beleeue euerie 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 2. 3. spirit but to trie them because manie false prophets are gone out into the world and for tryall of them haue our rules in the Scripture it will not discharge vs in the day of iudgement to say that we followed as we were led by Pastors and Doctors It will be sayd vnto vs that we had Moses and the Prophets Luk. 16. 29. 1. Pet. ◠19. Ioh. 5. 39. that we had a most sure word of the Prophets that we were commanded to search the Scriptures that we had warning long ago by the Prophet Ieremie Heare not the words of the Ierem. 23. 16. 22. Prophets that prophecie vnto you and teach you vanity they speake the vision of their owne heart and not out of the mouth of the Lord. If they had stood in my counsell and declared my words to my people then they should haue turned them from their euill wayes To conclude we follow the Fathers and all other true Pastors and Doctors in that which they truly teach vs not because we haue heard it of them but because we are so taught in the Scriptures as the men of Samaria beleeued not for the womans report but because they had heard Christ himselfe Ioh. 4. 41. 42. PAPIST They obiect and say that there is no reason to preferre the Fathers before the Scriptures and captiously they demand whether it be better to follow the openions of men that might erre and be deceiued or the sentence of God himselfe that 〈◊〉 neither deceine nor be deceiued But answer is soone returned that the question betwixt vs and them is not as they would make simple people beleeue whether the Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit but that which I wish al diligētly to note whether for the interpretation true sense of the scriptures we should not rather beleeue the anciēt holy and learned Fathers then those that liue in our daies so far frō the◠Apostles age neither for vertue or learning cōperable to the old Saints of Gods Church Let the question be propounded thus then none of indifferēt iudgmēt wil euer make questiō of the matter PROTESTANT As cunningly as you would shift off the true state of the question by propounding it in our names imperfectly at the first and then of
time and is far from the largenesse of the whole church of Christ Your third reason is Then were it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth Let vs also bring this reason into forme The pillar and ground of truth cannot erre The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church cannot erre First what is this to generall Councels which are not that church which S. Paul calleth the pillar and ground of truth but at the best onely some part of it that church is the house of the liuing God which extends it selfe more largely both in regard of persons and times then to the number assembled in some generall councels in some times of the church Whereby it commeth to passe that as before hath beene noted out of Augustine generall councels haue corrected prouinciall and the later generall councels haue corrected the former Wherefore some generall councell or councels may erre and yet the church remain still the pillar and ground of truth Secondly the Church is called the pillar and ground of truth as hath bene shewed because the Oracles of God are committed vnto it which the church keepeth faithfully to the worlds end By which as by an vndoubted marke the true Church is knowne from the false For the false church casteth away and corrupteth the Scriptures neither doth vphold and beare vp the truth by the preaching of the Gospell as is manifestly seene in the Apostaticall church of Rome Contrariwise the true church conserueth the records of Gods truth and preacheth the doctrine of the holy Scripture for the gathering of the Saints and the edifying Ephes 4. 12. Mal. 2. 7. of it selfe Howbeit as the Priest whose lips should preserue knowledge and at whose mouth they should inquire the law may sometimes faile in the knowledge and shewing of the law So the visible church may in some points of truth hold erroneous opinions and yet continue still the pillar and ground of truth to wit of that truth which is necessarie to saluation in the true knowledge and custodie whereof the true Church shall neuer deceiue nor be deceiued The Apostles and Disciples of our Sauiour Christ at the time of his ascention were the onely true visible church of Christ who vndoubtedly were the pillar and ground of 1. Tim. 6. 3. truth holding fast the foundation which is Iesus Christ and keeping the wholesome word which is according to godlinesse Act. 1. 6 yet did they erre in the matter of restoring the kingdome to Israel Thirdly as before hath bene shewed out of Chrysostome The truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church For as Augustine August 〈◊〉 166. faith to the Donatists In the Scriptures we haue learned Christ In the Scriptures vve haue learned the Church Vnderstanding therefore pillar ground or firmament for the strength stay or foundation the truth is the strength stay and foundation of the church which is built vpon the foundation of the Eph. 2. 20. Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone But the church is the pillar and ground of truth as Galath 29. Cephas lamet and Iohn were counted to bee pillars because by their preaching the Gospel was greatly vpheld Fundatores Ecclesiae erant sustentatores They were founders of the Church and vpholders as Haymâ— noteth out of Augustine So the Church layeth the foundation of truth and beareth vp the truth by confessing and preaching Inqua solu as Primasius noteth nunc veritas stat firmata que solatotum edificium sustinet veritatis that is In vvhich alone the truth novv standeth grounded and which alone beareth vp the vvhole building of truth Not that the church is as Ladie ouer the truth but as an handmaide to the truth Therefore as Peter being a pillar was yet subiect to error so the church is not free from all error although it be the pillar and ground of truth The Protestants therefore that embrace that truth which the true church teacheth according to the Scriptures haue the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Papists that build vpon variable and vncertaine definitions of men not examining them by the infallible and cleere doctrine of the Scriptures PAPIST Fiftly S. Peter saith that no prophecie of Scripture is made by 2. Pet. 1. 20. priuate interpretation Priuate interpretation 〈◊〉 haue none seeing vve interpret them according to that sense vvhich consent of antiquitie and the authoritie of Gods Church deliuereth and the Protestants haue none but priuate seeing their doctrine is that euerie one must examine by the touchstone of the Scriptures vvhat others do teach and so to admit or reiect it as they find it agreeable or not to the vvord of God vvhich if it be not priuate interpretation there can be none sound in the world For vvhat can be more priuate then for euerie priuate vnlearned artificer to make himselfe iudge ouer all and to sentence this mans doctrine as agreeable to Gods vvord and to reiect the common opinion of manie more yea though of ancient Fathers and generall Councels as contrarie to sacred Scripture and yet this is common amongst our aduersaries as daily experience informeth vs. PROTESTANT Priuate interpretation in this place of Peter is opposed to the interpretation of the spirit as in the wordes plainely appeareth and not one mans interpretations to manie mens as you pretend For all mens interpretation if it be humane comming of their owne sense and not taught by the Spirit is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their owne which you call priuate The gift of interpretation as other spirituall gists is of the spirit 1. Cor 13. 10. Luke 24. 45. of God who openeth the hearts of men to vnderstand the scriptures As he opened the heart of Lydia For otherwise as the Act. 1â— 14. veile remaining vpon the hearts of the Iewes they could not see into the end of the law but vvhen the vâ—â—le vv is taken away 2. Cor. 3. 16. from their hearts then by a right vnderstanding of the Scriptures they were conuerred vnto Christ So while the vaile of carnall wisedome which is foolishnesse vvith God is 1. Cor. 1 10. Rom. 8. 7. 1. Cor. 2. 24. vpon the hearts of men they cannot discerne the wisedome of God reuealed in the Scriptures For the Scripture and the true sense thereof is spiritually discerned and onely the Ioh. 6. 45. spirituall man discerneth all things By this spirit are all that beleeue taught of God and euerie man that hath heard and learned of the Father commeth vnto Christ This spirit by the Act. 8. ministerie of Philip led the Eunuch to the true sense of the Prophet Esay Neither Philip nor any of the disciples could giue him the spirit of discerning Neque enim saith Augustine De Trinit lib. 15. cap. 26. aliquis discipuloruns eâ—as dedit spiritum Sanctum For none of his disciples gaue the holy Ghost Neither
can all the Doctors Fathers or Councels in the world beget the true vnderstanding of the Scripture in any one mans heart It is the worke of the heauenly teacher that is the holy Ghost which Augustine ingeniously confesseth Sonus verborum nostrorum Tract 3. in Ioan. epist aures percutit magister intus est c. The sound of our words beateth the eares the minister is vvithin Thinke not that any man doth learne any thing of man We may admonish by the noise of our voice if there be not to teach within our noise is in vaine Will you knovv it indeed brethren Haue ye not all heard this Sermon How manie will depart hence vntaught For my part I haue spoken to all but to whom that annointing speaketh not within whom the holy Ghost teacheth not within they depart vntaught Teachings that are outward are some helpes and admonitions He hath his chaire in heauen that teacheth the hearts Thus farre Augustine Neither do we send men to any other spirit then that which teacheth in the Scriptures for euen in hearing and reading of the scriptures the spirit createth in our harts the true vnderstanding of them as our Sauiour interpreting the Scriptures to his disciples withall opened their hearts to vnderstand them and on the Sabbaoth day opening Luk. 24. 32. 44. 45. the prophecie of Esay withall he opened their hearts that they vvondered at the gracious vvords that proceeded out of his mouth And Philip began at that Scripture which the Eunuch Luk. 4. 22. Act. 8. was reading and preached to him Iesus when the holy Ghost opened his heart to beleeue and when Paul spake Lydiaes heart was opened This spirit which is the spirit of Act. 16. 14. wisedome is also the spirit of adoption and therefore as all the sonnes of God to whom appertaineth the adoption haue receiued also the spirit of adoption and he that hath not the spirit of Christ is none of his so all that are wise vnto Rom. 8. 9. Ioh. 20. 31. Eph. 1. 17. 18. saluation all that doe knowe that Iesus is that Christ the Sonne of God and by beleeuing haue life through his name haue likewise receiued the spirit of wisedome and reuelation to inlighten the eyes of their vnderstanding to knowe the things that are giuen them of God and vvhat that hope is of his calling and vvhat the riches of his glorious inheritance is in the Saints Neither is the whole Scripture so obscure as you would beare men in hand I haue before shewed you the confession of Augustine In those words which are euidentlie set downe in De doctr Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Epist 3. the Scriptures are found all those things which conteine faith and maners of life And in another place Those things which the Scripture euidentlie conteineth as a familiar friend it speaketh without obscuritie to the heart of learned and vnlearned The spirit of God not onely prouiding the Scriptures but also that the reader should meete with the true meaning of them De doctr Chr. lib. 3. cap. 27. as Augustine saith Yea but say you when euerie one must examine by the touchstone of Scripture what other do teach and so admit or reiect it as they find it agreeable or not agreeable with the word of God if this be not a priuat interpretation there can be none found in the world Feare you not thus to open your mouth against heauen and to call that interpretation which is grounded on the Scriptures a priuate interpretation When our Sauiour referred the Iewes to seeke witnes of himself by searching the scriptures did he referre them to a priuate interpretation when the men of Beraea searched the Scriptures vvhether those things that Paul spake vvere so or no. Did they follow a priuate interpretation By this which you call priuate interpretation Augustine exhorteth to search out the meaning of the Scriptures that for the illustrating of the more obscure De doctr Chr. lib 2. cap. 97. speaches examples be taken from the more manifest and some testimonies of certaine senses take away the doubt of the vncertaine In obscure places where the sense cannot be found by conference with other plainer places of scripture Augustine admits to giue reason to the sense we bring but saieth he This custome is dangerous it is more safe to vvalke by the diuine scriptures De doctr Christ lib. 3. cap. 27. vvhich standing in translate vvords when vve vvill search either let such sense be made of it as hath no coÌ„trouersie or of it haue let it be determined by the same Scripture vvheresoeuer the witnesses thereof can be found and applied Neither is this to make euery priuate vnlearned artificer iudge ouer the Scriptures but to set all both learned and vnlearned to schoole to the Scriptures from whence as Augustine saith before alleaged vve haue learned to knovv Christ and to knovv the church of Christ. But if we follow Popish guides we must learne to knowe the scriptures for the sense of the scripture is the scripture yea and Christ himselfe by the tradition of the Church and receiue such a sense of scriptures and such a Christ as Fathers and Councels by their authority shall deliuer vnto vs not hauing left vnto vs any power to trie the spirits by the Scripture the infallible touchstone of all spirits by which both Christ and his Apostles were content to Iohn 5. 39. Galat. â— 8. be tryed If this be not a priuate interpretation there can be none found in the world PAPIST To assure vs this is Canonical scripture and which is not there is no other way but to cleane vnto the authoritie of Gods Church Therefore S. Austen saieth I would not beleeue the Gospell if the authoritie of Gods church did not mone me And the Protestants Contr. epist. fund cap. 4. caÌ„not in this question euer giue coÌ„tent either to themselues or other if they take any other course For where do they finde in the whole Bible that S. Iames his Epistle for example is Canonical scripture is it not well knowen that Luther did reiect it But faine would I know how they can according to their principle which is to beleeue nothing but scripture proue this point against Luther out of the scripture most certaine it is they cannot and that which we say of S. Iames his Epistle may be said of any other part of the Bible if one be disposed to deny it Seeing then that there is equall danger of saluation in expounding the scriptures conâ—rarie to the true senseintended by the holy Ghost as there is in refusing that for Scripture which vvas indâ—ed by the holy Ghost vvhat man of reason can denie but that if the church doth tell vvhich is the scripture and vvhich is not that the same Church is likevvise to tell vs vvhich is the true sense of the scripture which is not We therefore that interprete them as the church teach vs haue the
bookes when being compared to those which were trulie knowen to be Hippocrates his owne they were iudged to be vnlike and because they were not knowen to be trulie his at the same time when the rest of his writings came to be knowne So the ecclesiasticall writings of men are no otherwise knowen whose they were but because in the times wherein euerie one wrote them he acquainted and published them to whom he could and from thence by a continued knowledge from one to another and farther confirmed they cap. 9. came to their posteritie euen to our times In like maner he concludes of the holy Scriptures If you will follow the authoritie of the Scriptures which ought to be preferred before all other follow that which from the times of the verie presence of Christ by the dispensations of the Apostles hauing beene kept throughout the whole world came commended and famouslie knowen to our times By all which it is euident that Augustine meant not to make the Catholike Church of his time the author of his beleefe touching the Canonical Scriptures but the Catholike Church of the first times who came neerest to the writing and deliuerie of the Scriptures from the hands of the Apostles and the Apostolike men that wrote them for whose testimonie and commendations sake the Church succeeding is also beleeued What is this to the supposed Catholike church of our daies by which you meane the Popes kingdome when euen the true Catholike church of later times neither hath nor chalengeth to her selfe any credit in this matter but as she can porduce the testimonie of the Catholike church in the first times Lastly Augustine there saith Nisi me commoueret Ecclesiae authoritas He only ascribeth to the Churches authoritie that it is a motiue and the first motiue to induce an vnbeleeuing man to thinke well of the Scriptures but hee resteth not in this motiue Hauing thus begun he proceedeth after in searching the Scripture to finde by what spirit they were written and by the authority and teaching of that Spirit as the vndoubted word of God to embrace them not man now but God himselfe inwardlie strengthening and enlightening his â—inde as he is before alleadged What makes all this for the authoritie of the Popish falsly called Catholike church to lead mens consciences into captiuitie by her interpretations or determinations either of the Canonicall Scriptures or of their sense Nay what makes this for such authoritie as vnder the Churches title you would claime to depriue Christians of any better assurance either touching the Scriptures or their sense then it receiued from the authoritie of the Church that is of men no lesse subiect to errourthen themselues But you would faine knowe how the Protestants that beleeue nothing but Scripture can by Scripture prooue against Luther that S. Iames his Epistle is Canonicall Scripture Euen in like manner as wee can prooue S. Pauls Epistles and other Scriptures inspired of God to be Canonicall Scripture For thinke you that that Spirit by whose inspiration holy men of God wrote the Scriptures doth not still breath in the same Scriptures by meanes of which Spirit the word of God Hebr. 4. 12. liueth and is mightie in operation and by that speciall vertue differeth from humane writings yea euen those that are written of Scripture matters Either then you must diuide the Spirit from the Scriptures when Gods children reade it which you cannot doe without dishonour to the Scriptures or you must needes confesse that out of the Scriptures inspired of God Gods children doe sufficiently prooue vnto their owne consciences and against all gaine-sayers that the whole Scripture and euery part thereof is Canonicall that 1 Cor. 2. 4. is a souereigne rule to guide the Church in all points both concerning faith and maners For as the Apostles preaching so his writing and all Scripture inspired of God hath in it selfe plaine euidence of the spirit and of power that our faith should not be in the wisedome of men but in the power of God Thus out of S. Pauls Epistles wee can prooue S. Pauls Epistles to be Canonicall And out of S. Iames his Epistle wee can prooue S. Iames his Epistle to be Canonicall and generally the whole Scripture prooues it selfe to be Canonicall and from it selfe the Church receiueth receiueth witnesse of it selfe If you be ignorant of this it is because you haue not receiued of the annointing of that Spirit by whom the Scriptures were inspired And now cease any longer to disport your selfe with this carnall question out of what Scripture the Protestants can prooue S. Iames his Epistle to be Canonicall The sheepe of Christ doe knowe the shepheards voice and they knowe it not by report but by it selfe they discerne it To conclude because there is danger in expounding the Scriptures contrarie to the true sense intended by the holy Ghost albeit not equall danger as in refusing the holy Scripture indited by the holy Ghost as Augustine insinuateth Confess lib. 12. cap. 23. 24. as in the greater that is the approbation of Canonicall Scriptures wee dare not remit all to mens voices though they be the Church so in that wherein errours is lesse dangerous yet dangerous too that is in determining the true sense of Scriptures we dare not build our faith vpon the wisedome of men because as hath beene alleadged out of Augustne we haue learned of our Redeemer in â—â—llo hoâ—ike spem pouere to put no trust in any man but onely in the plaine euidence of the spirit that speaketh in the Scriptures which so long as we doe with faithfull prayer and humble submission to his teaching according to the promise they shall be all taught of God weare assured to be led into all truth Isa 54. 13. Iohn 6. 45. necessary to saluation which security the Papists that rest in mens authority can neuer haue PAPIST Seauenthly wittingly and willingly they corrupt the text of holy Scripture for example to make the people beleeue that images are vnlawfull in Tyndals translation where Idols be forbidden vsually the word Image is placed in steed thereof and therefore in S. Iohn we find it thus traÌ„slated Babes keep your selues froÌ„ images 1. Ioh. â— 21. And for triall we will appeale to their later Bibles printed by Christopher Barker for there we read thus Little children keepe your selues from Idols PROTESTANT Not to stand long in these points so sufficiently answered long agoe by Doctor Fulke against Martine and Doctor Whitaker against Reynolds both of worthy and blessed memorie first it is so plain that the Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth in the proprietie of the word signifie an image that Gregorie Martine neither can nor doth denie it Secondly as vse hath restrained the name Idoll from the generall signification to note onely wicked images and such as are abused to Gods dishonour so is it well knowen that both in vulgar and popular vse and also in the generall vnderstanding
would haue all Papists so to do because you make reckoning that the more desperat they grow herein the more neere and apt they are to rebellion and trayterous attempts but yet rather then altogether to driue them from you you will moderate the rigor of your faith in this point and permit them to serue the times alwaies prouided that you be sure of their hearts and that they faile you not when opportunity serueth as appeared in the faculty granted to Parsons and Campiaâ— But marke what this forcible Reasoner saith Such doctrine to wit as this faculty conteineth is deuised only for the cold coÌ„fort of such as loue the world to much Howsoeuer the Pope dispense with Church Papists this Ghostly Father and such like tell them that such dispensations are but cold comfort so slender reckoning they make of them that they call them no better then Temporizers and such as frame their consciences to the lawes and finally such as loue the world too much If the Popish faith were the true Christian faith no doubt this reprehension were iust It behooueth therefore all seduced Papists to trie the Popish faith by the word of God whether it be the true faith or not I speake not of those Catholike points of faith which the popish Synagogue holdeth in common with the church of Christ but of that Apostasie which is risen vp in the Church and vnder the collour and name of the Church to beguile the vnstable and vnbeleeuing Beware of false Prophets saith our Sauiour Christ which Matth 7 15. Operam perfect 10 Matth. 7. hom 19. come vnto you â—â— Sheepes clothing but inwardlie they are reuening wolues Christians saith Chrysostome are rightly called sheepe but the sheeps garment is the shew of christianitie A wolfe many times weares a sheeps garment that is makes a couÌ„tersait shew of religioÌ„ in seÌ„blance either of those works that being rightly done are the workes of sheepe or of the practise of that religioÌ„ which is the religioÌ„ of sheep Counfait almes saith Chrisostom is a sheeps garment but not a sheeps worke Counterfait praier is a sheeps garment but no sheeps worke Counterfait fasting is a sheepes garment but no sheepes worke So are all other shewes of pietie wherwith rauening wolues cloth theÌ„selues The Popish agents make great vaunts of almes prayer and fasting by boasting of good things to insinuate them selues into honest mindes This ostentation is nothing else but a sheepes garment Againe in practise of religion they make a greate shew and thereby dazell the eies of the ignorant for to vse the words of Chrysostome out of their simplitie and zeale but not according to knowledge thus they say How can I say that he is no christian whom I see to confesse Christ to haue an Altar to offer the sacrifice of bread and wine to read the holy scriptures to haue all the order of priesthood Wherevnto Chrysostome maketh this answere That euen an Ape hath the members of a man and in all things like a man shall we therefore say that it is a man So likewise Heresie hath and imitateth all the misteries of the church but Heretikes are not the church yea saith Chrisostom they shew to be grounded christians they haue their churches nay they gouerne churches yet openly anaucentiously subuert them yea they are so multiplied that christians seeme rather to bee wonderers or deceiuers then they yet are they inwardly rauening Wolues because they seeke not to saue but to destroy Christians as the nature of the VVolfe is Hitherto Chrysostome hath set forth the faire and deceiueable shewes that false Prophets make both of their works and of their faith wherein they would seeme to be sheepe but are indeed rauening Woolues Now let vs see what aduise he giues to beware of them and to trie them By their fruites yee shall knowe them The fruite of a man saith Chrysostome is the confession of his mouth and the worke of his conuersation If therefore thousee a Christian man consider by and by whether his confession agree with the Scriptures if it doe he is a true Christian but if it be not as Christ hath commaunded he is a false Christian For so Iohn writing in his Epistle of heretikes said not If anie man come vnto you not hauing the name of Christ Say not vnto him God speed but if any man bring not this doctrine He reserred the triall of Christianitie not to the name of Christ but to the Confession because not only the name maketh a Christian but also the truth of Christ for many walke in the name of Christ but few in his Truth Then coÌ„ing to the works of conuersation Doth a sheep saith he at anie time persecute the Wolfe or rather the Woolfe the sheepe So Cain persecuted Abel and not Abel Cain Ismael Isaac and not Isaac Ismael Esau Iacob and not Iacob Esau the Iewes Christ and not Christ the Iewes heretikes Christians and not Christians heretikes Therefore by their fruites yee shall knowe them For if a Woolfe be couered with a sheepes skinne how shall a man knowe him but either by his voice or by his deede In which comparison you may there see how Chrysostom proceedeth farther A litle after he saith But what fruits do they bring forth wounds troubles other mischiefs As a thorne or a bramble of what side soeuer you view it hath prickles so of vvhat side soeuer you consider the seruants of the diuell they are full of iniquities If he speake he speakes deceitfullie if he holde his peace he museth of euill If he be angrie he is mad if he deale patientlie he vvaiteth for a time to hurt and considereth of some opportunitie vvhen he may doe mischiefe If he do euill he is not ashamed â—f he doe vvell hee doth it for vaine glorie because of men Thus farre Chrysostome Briefly to make Application The Popish Church is of great authoritie euen for the very names sake of the Church with all seduced Papists Their ostentation of almes prayer and fasting makes a great shew in their eies Their confession of Christ their altars their pretended sacrifice their baptisme their reading of Scriptures and shew of Fathers their priestly order do seeme to be infallible signes of a true Church Howbeit as you haue seene Chrysostome affirmeth that heretikes haue all these yet are they no more the true Church for these then an Ape is a man for the resemblance he hath of the parts of mans body Their multitude especially considering the reach of long time makes many suppose it impossible that they should be false Churches Yet Chrysâ—stome sheweth that heerein heretikes are so farre before Christians that Christians rather seeme to be deceiuers or new vpstart and vagrant persons What then is to be done to discerne them Try them by their fruits that is the confession of their faith and the workes of their conuersation And how shall we trie the confession of their faith by the Scriptures