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A35862 A Dialogue between a new Catholic convert and a Protestant shewing the doctrin of transubstantiation to be as réasonable to be believ'd as the great mystery of the trinity by all good Catholicks. 1686 (1686) Wing D1297; ESTC R29715 4,548 10

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Literal Construction in this Case likewise how strangely should we be confounded by those Texts where this Godhead in Christ is declar'd to be no more than Lordship and subordinate to the Father as Heb. 1.8 9. 1 Cor. 8.4 5. 1 Cor. 15.27 28. Rev. 3.12 and John 10.35 36. B. But Sir our Saviour forgave Sins too A. That 's true but only by a deputed Authority You see when the Sons of Zebbedee petition'd him he could not grant the final Accomplishment of our Spiritual Warfare that was the Father's Prerogative Matth. 20.23 And tho' he is to be our Judge yet he knows not the time Mark 13.31 1 Tim. 6.15 B. I must confess these things a little surprise me but however I cannot think these neither the only Grounds that support that Mystery of the Trinity A. No you are in the right there is one strong Proof more the making of all things visible and invisible is attributed to the Son and that expresly John 1.3 Heb. 1.10 and particularly Col. 1.16 17 18 19. But yet for all that if we do not adhere with the Catholic Church to the Literal Interpretation we are at a loss there too For first 't is plain by the rest of the Scripture that the Son is not our only Maker as appears by our Creation attributed to the Father and then if we compare those Texts to Heb. 1.2 9 10. 1 Cor. 8.6 Eph. 3.9 Eph. 4.5 6. 1 Cor. 15.27 28. we cannot reasonably attribute more to the Son than his being God's Instrument in the Creation B. But are these the true and only Grounds of the Doctrin of that Holy Mystery A. Yes verily for that we are Baptiz'd in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost is no Argument That were as reasonable if understood of Christ and the Holy Ghost as our Spiritual Governors as under the supposal of their being Coequal with the Father 1 Cor. 10.2 1 Cor. 12.12 13. B. But surely Sir the Arians should have other Grounds to establish their Opinions besides those or else your Parallel with Transubstantiation will not be so demonstrable as you conceive Pray inform me a little further I have a mighty desire to understand a little better their Fundamental Principles A. To satisfie you I shall First They alledge Christ represented under the Law altogether as an Angel for Eminency call'd the Angel of the Presence Isa 63.9 Eccl. 5.6 Gen. 48.16 Num. 20.16 Exod. 23.20 21 22. referr'd to 1 Cor. 10.4 5 9. Further they collect him to be a Created Being from Col. 1.15 Rev. 3.14 Psal 118.23 Isa 45.8 Ecclus 1.4 9. Ecclus 24.9 Sap. 6.22 23. And they interpret that Scripture Thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee by Acts 13.33 and 2 Pet. 1.17 As to the Holy Ghost they prove a vast distance between him and the Son by John 16.12 13 14 15. and John 15.26 Besides they say he is no where call'd God and urge for the probability of their Opinion Rev. 12.9 Rev. 20.8 2 Cor. 4.4 For as there is an universal tempting Evil Power so we may reasonably conclude there may be a Good Assisting Power without any necessity of his being God And further whereever in the Scriptures there is made any mention of the Three Persons there is always declar'd an express Gradation as 1 Cor. 12.3 4 5. 2 Cor. 13.14 Gift and Communion from the Fellowship of the Holy Ghost Grace and Administration from the Lordship and Kingship of Christ and Love and Operation from the Father the Supreme God the Original Fountain according to Eph. 4.4 5 6. B. I must confess Sir these Opinions seem to make it necessary for us in that Doctrin too to trust to the Authority of the Catholic Church and I shall take time to consider a little upon them But pray Sir what say you to the Reasons of the two Doctrins A. Really Sir I must tell you I think that Parallel much the easiest 'T is strange new Arithmetic to a Man to tell him Three distinct Persons are one and the same Individual Nature and then to call such a one the most Pure and Simple Being and that especially when they are declar'd to have various Intellectual Powers as appears by John 16.12 13 14 15. and Mark 13.31 1 Tim. 6.15 Acts 1.7 For my part I cannot tell well how the Prejudice of Education could possibly digest a thing so unreasonable were it not a Divine Mystery I am sure to my Carnal Reason there may be as well Three hundred Persons in the Godhead as Three and I know not what can be said of Transubstantiation that is seemingly more absurd than That B. I must confess Sir I have had strange consus'd and surprizing Thoughts of it my self but I alays apprehended the Christian Church a sufficient Guide A. If you did Sir pray consider who that Catholic Mother is you so obey'd and as you have receiv'd the Trinity so receive a Doctrin equally as Reasonable and deliver'd by Her Transubstantiation I know the Ingenuousness of your Temper and you promis'd me at first not to be a wilful Schismatic and therefore I have hopes my Reasons and your Consideration will be sufficient to reduce you to Catholic Communion B. Sir I shall consider of it but as yet you only talk'd to me at large I shall desire one Favour of you before we part Pray state the Parallel a little shorter I shall the better remember it A. Well Sir I shall First The Tradition of one Doctrin cannot be stronger than another where both have been at least equally question'd Secondly 'T is as reasonable to take This is my Body literally as it is to take these Texts I and my Father are one god over all blessed for ever and By him all things were made without reference to other Scriptures and a Figurative Interpretation And lastly I think to Human Reason 't is as equally unreasonable and as seemingly repugnant to say One is Three as it is to say a Body is not what it appears B. Very well I shall desire no more of you now I 'le only take a little Time to consider and then you shall know my Mind more freely A. Farewell and God give you his Holy Spirit to instruct you FINIS