4th For all the pretences of Infallibility in the Church of Rome they cannot decide the Controversies that are among their own Members 5th Both Popes and General Councils have contradicted one another and therefore neither of them can be infallible 6th The pretence of Infallibility in the Church of Rome is nothing but a device to uphold their Temporal Grandeur and Dominion Quest. 21. Why do you think the Church of Rome is in an Error in forbidding the reading of the Bible to the Common People Answ. 1. Because Christ commands all sorts of Men to read the Scriptures Joh. 5. 39. 2. The Berrhaeans are commended for searching the Scriptures Acts 17. 11. 3. The Fathers in the Primitive Church exhorted the People to the frequent reading of the Scriptures 4. St. Paul charges the Thessalonians to take care that his Epistle be read to all the holy Brethren 1 Thess. 5. 27. 5. In the Jewish Church every Family was to have the Law in their Houses and to teach it their Children diligently Deut. 6. 7. 6. The pretence of the Obscurity of the Scripture in many places is insignificant since the Scripture is plain enough in things necessary to Salvation 7. The Church of Rome in forbidding the Bible to the Laity discovers her fear and the weakness of her Cause least the People should see her Errors and forsake her Quest. 22. UUhy do not you believe that the Books call'd Apocrypha are Canonical Scripture Answ. 1. Because the Oracles of the Old Testament were delivered to the Jewish Church Rom. 3. 2. and these were not 2. The Christian Church receiv'd from the Jews no other Books of Canonical Scripture but what are own'd as such by the Church of England 3. The Apocrypha were not written by Men inspired by the Holy Ghost and what is Scripture must be by Inspiration 2 Tim. 3. 16. 4. Some of the Authors beg the Readers pardon for their Mistakes which is not the Language of the Holy Ghost 5. The Antient Councils have rejected these Apocrypha as not Canonical particularly the Council of Laodicea 6. In the Primitive Churches they read these Apocrypha only for the Instruction of Mens Manners but did not resolve their Faith into them no more do we Quest. 23. UUhy do you find fault with the Church of Rome for asserting that the Church of England once a Member of her Communion had no power to reform her self Answ. 1. Because every Church hath a natural right to shake off the Abuses and Corruptions which are contrary to the Word of God 2. It is God's Command to private Men not to suffer themselves to be deluded by the slight of Men and cunning Craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive and therefore much more is a National Church concern'd to do so 3. In vain was any Reformation hoped for from the Bishop and Clergy of the Roman Church 4. It 's the proper Office of the Bishops of a National Church to take notice what Errors creep into their Churches and oppose them 5. And that they have right to do so appears from the Examples the Church of Judah had in the times of Jehoshaphat or Hezekiah or Josiah 6. In throwing off the power of the Pope of Rome we did not throw off Obedience to a lawful Soveraign but Subjection to an Usurper 7. We did no more than what the Orthodox Churches did after the Arian Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia in setting up the Nicene Faith again which those powerful Councils had banish'd 8. We made no new Religion but restor'd the old and built no new House but only swept out of the old the Rubbish which made it unwholesom and uninhabitable The End An Account of the Conference betwixt a Jesuit of the Savoy and my Self the 2d of January Present Mr. Stephens on my side Mrs. Chamberlain and Mr. Chamberlain and the Book-binder about whom the Conference was held he having been six years of the Church of Rome but somewhat unsatisfied and Mr. Lamb. About Seven of the Clock at Night THE first thing Discoursed was about the Doctrine of Calvinists which the Jesuit said made God the Author of Sin I told him that there are several Expressions which if a favourable Construction be put upon them will appear to be otherwise Next he fell upon Luther who should say that no Man could be damned if he would but for his Infidelity I said it was true that God condemned no Man that professed himself a Christian but for his Infidelity The Jesuit asked whether if a Man committed Theft he may be call'd an Infidel I said he acted like an Infidel and in that Act was so because he acted contrary to his Belief Mr. Chamberlain putting in something about that place 1 Tim. 2. about one Mediator The Jesuit argued he wonderd we should talk of one Mediator when every Man that pray'd for the other was a Mediator I told him in a large Sense he might be called so but in the Controversie before us were meant Mediators which are religiously worshipped Here happened a great rambling Discourse about Faith As distinguished from all good Works but I told them that by Faith I did not mean the bare Assent to the Doctrine but a practical Belief as it takes in the whole Word of God and living according to it The Book-binder was gone to call Mrs. Chamberlain and coming again by this time The Jesuit said they were come to satisfie Persons under some Doubts and therefore must fall upon some more material Points and since we Protestants sent people to the Scripture it was necessary we should begin to talk of the Rule of Faith and therefore he desired to know how we knew the Scripture to be the Word of God and from whom we had received our Bible I told him we had received it from the Catholick Church whose Testimony was very considerable in this Case He ask'd hereupon when we went off from the Church From what Church we did immediately receive it I answered him both from the Western or Roman and from the Churches of the East However I told him I would fairly grant him that we had received it immediately from the Church of Rome and I desired him to make the best of it Here he asked how we could receive the true Bible from a corrupt Church I asked him whether I might not receive a Pearl from a Chimney Sweeper He said we looked upon them for Rogues and Rascals Whereupon I told him we give them no such Language However sinc he used these Names whether a Man might not receive a 100 l. in very good Money from Rogues and Rascals He then argued That we look'd upon the Church of Rome as a corrupt Church and how can we be sure that we have the true Bible since we cannot be sure that a corrupt Church had not corrupted it I told him that they confessed themselves they had not corrupted it and besides they could not corrupt it for the Cheat
Because they are not to be found in the Word of God 2. They are many of them contrary to the Word of God 3. No Church in the World hath Power to make New Articles of Faith Quest. 4. What are the New Articles of Faith the Church of Rome hath added to the Antient Creeds Answ. They are these following I. That the Traditions of the Church are to be received with the same Faith and Veneration we owe to the Holy Scriptures II. That there are seven Sacraments Baptism Confirmation the Eucharist Pennance Extreme Unction Orders and Marriage and that these confer Grace III. That among the Ceremonies used in the Roman Church the Publick Service in Latin or an unknown Tongue is a commendable Service IV. That in the Mass there is offered to God a true Propitiatory Sacrifice for the Living and the Dead V. That in the Sacrament of the Eucharist the Bread and Wine are changed into the very Substance of Christ's Body and Blood VI. That Laymen need not receive the Sacrament of the Eucharist in both kinds and that it 's sufficient for them to communicate in one VII That there is a Purgatory or a Place after Death where good Mens Souls are tormented for smaller Sins and relieved by the Alms and Prayers of the Living VIII That the Saints departed this Life may and must be pray'd to and invoked and that their Reliques must be worshipp'd IX That the Images of Jesus Christ and of the Virgin Mary and of other Saints may and ought to be worshipp'd X. That Indulgences or Dispensations of the redundant Merits of Saints are very useful things XI That Auricular Confession or Confession of all our mortal Sins with the Circumstances of them to a Priest is necessary to Salvation XII That the Church of Rome is the Catholick Church and Mistress of all other Churches Quest. 5. Why must not Traditions be received with the same Faith that is due to the written Word of God Answ. 1. Because the written Word of God is perfect containing all things necessary to Salvation And that does not direct us to Traditions but rather warns us against them 2. Because the Traditions of the Church of Rome many of them are false and many uncertain 3. Their Traditions are not Traditions which have been receiv'd in all Ages by all Churches and in all Places for such only are the true Apostolical Traditions 4. That they are not absolutely necessary their own Practice shews in that they reject Authentick Traditions and particularly that of Communicating Infants And here you may note The Reason why they fly to Tradition is because they cannot prove their New Doctrines by the Word of God Quest. 6. Why do not you believe seven Sacraments Answ. 1. The Holy Ghost in Scripture hath no where declared such a number 2. This precise number of Seven Sacraments was not heard of in the Christian Church till twelve hundred years after Christ. 3. There are but Two Sacraments mention'd in the New Testament I mean such as are true and proper Sacraments viz. Baptism and the Supper of the Lord. 4. The Council of Trent was the first that made this Number an Article of Faith Quest 7. Why do not you allow of Publick Service in Latin or in a Tongue not understood by the People Answ. 1. Because St. Paul writes a whole Chapter against it 1 Cor. 14. 2. Because the Publick Service ought to be for the Edification of the People and Service in an unknown Tongue cannot edifie 3. The Practice of the Primitive Church is against it 4. Some of the wiser Men in the Church of Rome themselves find fault with this Publick Service in an unknown Tongue 5. This Practice in the Church of Rome is only to serve some Worldly Ends. Quest. 8. Why do not you admit of the Sacrifice of the Mass Answ. 1. Because the Church of Rome tells us that they do sacrifice Christ every day in the Mass which is directly contrary to the 9th Chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews Heb. 9. 25 26 27 28. 2. Because there can be no true and proper Sacrifice without Death and it founds dreadful to a Christian Ear that the Priest kills Christ every day or which is all one puts his God to Death 3. It destroys the end of a Sacrifice which is to testifie our Subjection to God but in this Sacrifice of the Mass the Offerer who is the Priest must be greater than the Offering 4. The Lord's Supper is only a Commemoration or Representation of Christ's Sacrifice and a Sacrifice of Thanksgiving but no proper or true Propitiatory Sacrifice Quest. 9. Why do not you believe a Transubstantiation in the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper Answ. 1. It is against all Sense for we may see and feel and hear and taste and smell that the Bread and Wine after Consecration are Bread and Wine still 2. It is against Reason that Christ's Body and Blood should be in a thousand places at once 3. It is against Scripture for Christ protests that his flesh profits nothing Joh. 6. 63. 4. It is against the Nature of a Sacrament which is an outward visible Sign of something Spiritual and Transubstantiation destroys the Sign 5. Christ himself explains what he means by saying This is my Body when he adds Do this in remembrance of me which remembrance supposes the absence of his Natural Body 6. It is against that Article of our Faith which saith That Christ is to continue in Heaven till the Restitution of all things And there is no necessity we should take the words literally any more than the words in Jo. 10. 7. I am the door c. 7. This is my Body is a Phrase or Form of Speech exactly like that of the Lamb in the Passover This Lamb is the Passeover i. e. the Memorial of it 8. These words This is my Body do not naturally infer a substantial change by the Confession of some Papists themselves 9. They themselves cannot be sure of this Change because they say it depends upon the Intention of the Priest 10. The Absurdities that flow from the Doctrine of Transubstantiation are innumerable for then Christ must have eaten himself the Disciples must have eaten up their Master Christ's Body may be lockt up in a Box for half a year together and longer c. Whereas the Doctrine of the Church of England that the Bread represents Christ's Body and upon that account is his Body hath no Inconveniency in it 11. Transubstantiation is against the Doctrine of the Primitive Church which calls the Bread the Figure of Christ's Body Quest. 10. Why do not you think it lawful for Laymen to receive the Communion in one kind only Answ. 1. Because Christ saith expresly to the Disciples Drink ye all of this 2. The Practice of the universal Church of Christ for a thousand years together is against it 3. The Council of Constance in the year 1416. was the first that durst venture
together To say that this Infallibility lies in the Church though you know not where is to say a Needle lies in a Bottle of Hay and he hath good luck that finds it Nay I think the Church of ROME hath been so modest that notwithstanding all her pretences to infallibility She never hath dared to obtrude a Comment on the Bible as infallible nor did I ever see any Interpretation of the Bible made either by Pope or Council which hath pretended to Infallibility If that Church be infallible why do not their own Divines agree in Interpretation of Scripture if there be an infallible Sense of the Scriptures in that Church then the Members of that Church are mad not to keep to that infallible Sense especially if they know where to fetch it and they offer great injuries and affronts to their Church in differing so much about interpretation of Scripture when their Church can give them an infallible Sense of it For that Church having as they pretend the Holy Ghost to guide them in all things I suppose that Spirit assists her in Interpretation of one place of Scripture as well as in another if they say it doth infallibly assist them in some places and not in all they destroy their own Principle and how shall a man be sure that just in those Points that are in dispute between Us and them they are Infallible Is the Spirit divided Or is he not always the same Or doth not he exert his power upon all occasions Madam who so blind as those that will not see Who sees not that the pretence of Infallibility is nothing but a juggle a device to maintain a tripple Crown and an Engine to carry on a temporal Authority God indeed hath promised that his Church dispersed thro' the World shall last to the World's end and that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against her but that promise differs very much from a promise of Infallibility and suppose it did inferr an Infallibility how comes the particular Church of ROME to ingross it to her self that is at the best but a Member and a very unsound one of Christ's Universal Church It is one thing to be secured against being destroyed and another to be free from all possibility of Errour There is no doubt but a sober rational man that prays earnestly for illumination and reads the Scripture much and considers the Circumstances the Holy Writers were in when they writ and the Occasions of their writing and hath the advantage of Learning of Languages and History may give a very true Interpretation of Scriptures such an Interpretation as no man can rationally contradict tho' he hath not recourse to a Visible infallible Guide and tho' himself be not infallible Things may be very certain tho' they are not infallibly so and he that can make things out so that a prudent man cannot but give consent to them and hath no just cause to doubt of their truth may justly challenge belief from other men But I will not insist upon this point because I never heard you speak much of it I will come a little closer to those reasons that moved you to go over to the Roman Church whereof the principal was this that you were troubled in mind upon the account of your Sins could get no satisfaction in Our Church tho' you sought it like Esau with tears whereas you did no sooner confess to a Roman Priest and receive Absolution but you presently found unspeakable comfort And are you sure Madam that the peace and satisfaction you found in that Church was not delusion you tremble at that word but le ts consider the Nature of your peace When you were in our Church either you did truly repent of all your Sins or you did not If you did not most certainly you could have no solid peace but if you did truly repent as you say you did what could hinder you from applying the Promises made to penitent Sinners to your self which are the true grounds of comfort and satisfaction may be you wanted a Voice from heaven to confirm the Promise of the Gospel but have you since heard such a Voice from heaven in the Church of Rome I think not if you truly repented in our Church then certainly by the Word of God you were assured that your Sins were pardoned and if they were pardoned why should you not comfort your self with that pardon That which makes you rejoice now is because you believe your Sins are pardoned but if when you were of our Church you verily believed you truly repented you could not but believe that your Sins were pardoned and consequently you might have taken as much comfort as you do now But the Minister of the Church of England you say gave me no absolution which the Roman Priest did Why Madam did any of our Ministers deny your Absolution when you could assure them that your Repentance was sincere did you ever ask Absolution and were you refused Nay I appeal to your Conscience did not those Ministers you conversed withal assure you over and over that you need not doubt of the pardon of your Sins so long as you did detest and abhor them and watch and strive and pray against them and were sincerely resolved to commit them no more and did avoid the very occasions of Evil and what was this but Absolution which however you might have had performed with greater Ceremony if you had had a mind to it It is no very hard matter to guess at the rise and progress of your peace and satisfaction in the Roman Church All new things please and provided they have but a good face allure our fancy and this being pleased it 's very natural to defend them and having once defended them our Love to them advances and by degrees we think our Honour and Credit is too far engaged to part with them We see how Children are quieted with new trifles pardon the uncourtly comparison I know not how to shun it and the new object they never saw before surprizes and charms them makes them fix their Eyes upon it and cry if they cannot have it In the nature of Children we see our own and embracing new objects which our sickly fancy is roving after is but the Scene of Childrens longing for new play things changed the Novelty of the thing you were venturing upon the new Church new indeed new to you and new to Almighty God which you were to joyn your self to the Stool of Confession in the Church and the Priests new habit and mortified face which perhaps he owes more to his Country than to his Vertue and affected gravity and assuring of you that their absolution had a wonderful Vertue and Efficacy all these together surprized you and raised your expectation and struck some kind of reverence into you Your mind being thus possessed with the Idea's of these new things you never tried before and working upon your affections and moving your