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A33370 A paradisical dialogue betwixt faith and reason disputing the high mysterious secrets of eternity, the like never extant in our revelation. As touching God in eternity, how he became time in flesh, and how he dyed in the grave, and ascended to his glory again. Also what the angels are in form and nature, and how the angel became a devil, and that devil man; and that this world was prepared for the devil, so this the devils kingdom; and what the soul is, with the place of its glory and torment. With a brief narration what a commission is, and how many commissions there are; what the difference of their worships, and how that the law was given to the devil; with a brief discourse on the catechism, the Lords Prayer, and the creeds; as also, a divine prospect to the elect of the Lord. Written by Law. Claxton, the onely true bishop and faithful messenger of Christ Jesus, creator of heaven and earth. Claxton, Laurence, 1615-1667. 1660 (1660) Wing C4581; ESTC R215220 88,691 122

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Spirit also and yet the Nature Soul or Spirit of either God Angel or Man cannot be worshipped without a body for there is no Spirit whether immortal or mortal celestial or terrestial but it hath its own body and that sutable to its own nature as if its Spirit be an immortal glorious Spirit so is his body immortal glorious also and if its Spirit be mortal earthly so is its body mortal earthly also and this I say all bodies whether of God Man or Beast are invisible and seeth that which is without yet it self cannot be seen by any outward sight For who seeth the Spirit of a man save he that hath it So that I say if God were a Spirit without body he could not be seen so not worshipped no more then a Kings Spirit without a body could be honou●ed and therefore God being a spiritual body must be worshipped in Spirit And where thou sayest Feel me for a Spirit hath no flesh and bone as ye see me have I say from those words of the Lord Jesus it doth not in the least conclude that a Spirit is not cloathed with flesh and bone for I affirm the Apostles as well as others were dark in many things till Christ was glorified they supposing that Spirits might be seen without bodies and that by the eye of nature therefore Christ walking u●on the Sea and appearing among them the Doors and Windows being shut was the main cause of their sudden fear supposing they had seen a Spirit so that for the future and clearer satisfaction Christ tells them a Spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see me have though I be all Spirit yet feel me and behold my wounds and the print of my nails so that understand a Spirit without flesh and bone cannot be seen or felt unless a spiritual body so that against Angels and all thy Seed I affirm that God that Christ which said to the woman of Samaria God was a Spirit I say that self same Spirit was not in Heaven but in Christs body alone CHAP. 2. Shewing whether the Father became not a Son which which Son was Christ and by death became a Father to all Eternity now in Heaven glorified Reason THou hast told me all along that God hath a body in the form of a man and now thou sayest that the Spirit of God was in Christs body and not in the body of God the Father Where then was the body of God when his Spirit was in Christ Faith I shall affirm that as the Spirit of God was in Christ so the body of Christ was the body of God Creator of Heaven and Earth not two but one yea the very self-same body Reason Oh Friends this is a strange saying indeed that the body of God the Father should be the person of Christ If so how or which way came he down from Heaven to Earth it is so mysterious that it is beyond my reach or understanding Faith What is strange to thee is familiar with me for thou reads and understands not though it is frequently written in Scripture That Eternity was to become time yea immortality was to become mortal which is no less that the Father was to become a Son as it is written The seed of the Woman shall Gen. 3. bruise the head of the Serpent and to Esaiah it was revealed these sa●ings For unto us a Child is born and unto us a Esay 9. 6. Son is given and his Name shall be called wonderful Counsellour the Mighty God the Everlasting Father the Prince of Peace and again it is written In the beginning was the Joh. 1. 1 2 Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God which Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst men So that I affirm the coming down of the immortal personal God was clouded in those sayings The holy Ghost stall come Luke 1. 35. upon thee and the Power of the Highest shall overshadow thee therefore also the holy thing that shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God Reason I do not deny the truth of those sayings but do believe that Christ was the Son of God conceived by the holy Ghost but how or which way God was this Son I cannot tell neither do I believe that God did any more unto her then he did unto Ad●m when he made him a living Soul the Scripture saith He breathed unto him and he became a living Soul So in the same manner I conceive God breathed into Mary and by that breath she conceived the Seed of God in her womb and so she not knowing of man called him the Son of God and not God for God was in Heaven when he was upon Earth Faith From my Seed-spring I say that the Childe that vvas conceived in the vvomb of Mary so called a Son Was the Mighty God the Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace yea that Babe in her vvomb vvas the very God For the Word was God and became flesh and who was the Rower of the Highest that overshadowed Mary but God Creator of Heaven and Earth take notice that the knovvledge of these sayings vvas not to be revealed to thy Seed for saith the Prophet Vnto us yea unto us Pr●phets and the Messengers of the Lord a Son is given and a Child is born and therefore thou canst not tell hovv God the Creator should become a Son and Saviour but imagines God as he vvas a Spirit breathed into her vvomb as he breathed into Adam and so by that breath she conceived a man-child as touching this I tell thee there is great difference of a living and a dying Seed for by that breath Adam became life and by her overshadovving she vvas not made alive but had a conception in her living vvomb novv there can be no conception vvithout a Seed and that Seed must first dye before i● quicken to life again as it is vvritten Before the Wheat grain dye it abideth alone So that against Angels above and all their Seed belovv I affirm as from the Scriptures before is proved that God the Creator in the form of a man vvho is the onely Povver of the Highest did descend from his Throne and Kingdom as svvift as thought and his vvhole body pierced through her secrets in a Trance and in a mome●t dissolved into Seed and there died from an immortal Father and quickned there to a mortal Son of flesh blood and bone so called Christ Jesus the Saviour of the world Reason Oh admiration this is a report of astonishment that for my part I never never read or by the hearing of the ear ever heard till now that God in the form of a man should as thou sayest vvith that form descend from Heaven and for ought I knovv of as large proportion and bigness as thy self enter the vvomb of Mary and the greatest vvonder of all is that God vvith a body as big as thine should descend like lightning from Heaven and
there is no creature believing God a reasonable soul that shall have true peace here or glory hereafter as is confirmed in these Scriptures Being justified by faith we have Rom. 5 1. Hebr. 10 22. Heb. 11. 6. peace in God and again Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith and without faith it is unpossible to please God I say if God had but a reasonable soul vvhat matter for faith for by reason vve may have peace in God and in reasons belief thou mayest please God But alas poor blinde souls for vvant of this precious seed of faith thou canst not knovv God in form and nature so not believe him as he is 2. Secondly as there is no satisfaction so there is no povver in reason as there is in faith as it is vvritten I say unto you Ma● 17. 20. if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed ye shall say unto this Mounta●n Remove hence to yonder place and it shall remove and nothing shall be unpossible to you By faith God framed the Worlds by faith Abels sacrifice was accep●ed with God by faith Noah was warned of God by faith Sarah bel●eved by faith Abr●ham H●b 11. offered up his son Isaac by faith Moses refused to be called the son of Pharaoh by faith fire was quench●d the Lyons mouthes stopped the prison doors opened So by faith I kno● that Christ is the Everlasting Father by faith I knovv the soul of Christ is all faith and no reason by faith I knovv it vvas his pure Soul or Godhead Father in Christ that dyed and by his own power quickned himself again by faith I know that God in this our last Commission spake to John ●eeve as he spake to Moses and Paul O what a powerful Seed is faith that kills sin kills the Devil yea kills death nay what a high gloss doth the Lord of glory stamp upon faith and not so much as taking notice of reason at all and yet blinde reason the Devil will have God a reasonable soul O if not for fear yet for shame desist thy damned belief and from me observe the Soul of Christ is all Divine Heavenly faith which none shall know what God in his Form and Nature is but he whose faith is Lord over reason in this life Reason If the Soul or Nature of God be not pure reason how comes it then that God saith Come now let us reason together Isa 1. 18. saith the Lord c. which if his Nature as thou saith were all Divine Heavenly faith and not reason I conceive God could not have reasoned the case with them Faith O the gross darkness of reason that cannot understand that it was not the Lord from his own mouth that reasoned the case with them but the Prophet Isaiah for this by faith I know that God never reasoned with any but the Commissionate Prophets whose Seed is of his own Nature and in the vertue of that Commission are Ambassadors in Gods stead to reason the case with them for this I know that faith can take up the words of faith though faith speaks powerfully and infallibly when as reason speaks but dubiously and doubtfully Reason Is it not strange that reason should be the Governour of this World as thou hast formerly expressed and hath by its wisdom erected things in such a glorious form and order as now they are and yet should not be a Seed satisfactory in it self How comes it then that the Governours thereof taketh so much delight and pleasure in this World if man were not satisfied in the affairs of his life surely I cannot see but there is as much satisfaction in reason as in faith for I conceive men endued with reason have more content then men endued with faith Faith Now thou hast raised an Objection that thy experience may silence thee in the various transactions of this bloody World that the mutability thereof floweth from the nature of that Seed reason as instance the grand mutations of thy Kingdom When you had a King before you were not therewith satisfied but cryed out no Bishop no King and through much bloodshed you attained reasons desire for know this faith will shed no blood and therefore observe it is the Seed of reason divided against it self and then reason hunted the King like a Patridge till you had your desire accomplished and when you got victory over the Kings Army then the Bells rung and Bonfires made yea days of thanksgiving kept for joy and now you are unsatisfied for a King again and reason improved all its subtilty to attain its desire and then for joy of that which formerly it killed the bells rung the fire flamed oathes were sworn and healths were drunk till you could not stand to the destruction of your own souls and therefore I say there is no satisfaction in reason let it be never so rich or great in this its Kingdom that it is cloathed with crowns of Gold and deckt with Pearls and Diamonds and attendee with variety of Servants yet in all this reason is not satisfied but sometimes it would enjoy more honour and joys of this World and then it is afraid it shall lose all its honour pleasure and delight that it formerly enjoyed So that I say there is not from the King upon his Throne to the Beggar in the straw whose reason is Lord over faith that hath any true satisfaction at all For alas Solomon t●e greatest of all found no real content but cryed out all that he had enjoyed was vanity So that reason in the purest sense is compared to the bottomless pit that hath no end of its imagination and yet such Devils as thee will have God a reasonable Soul when in my Revel●tion thou hast heard there is no durable satisfaction at all in reason but faith alone for faith hath a foundation and can limit it self to a small compass yet be really contented without the glory of this World at all knowing this is but mortal and must perish in the desire thereof and therefore faith is satisfied in that it lays holds on that which is Immortal Eternal and shal never perish no more then God himself so that for all thy Kingdom with the glory here below my faith will have nothing to do with thy powers thy trading thy great joy and delight in that they must all vanish as the smoak in the ayre for the delight of my soul is in that glory and riches on the other side of death which is eternal and shall never perish world without end which neither thou nor none of thy Seed shall never see nor in the least measure enjoy But then 3. Thirdly Thou believest in the Holy Ghost the Lord and giver of life which proceedeth from the Father and the Son who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified c. As unto this I know thou hast no ground in Scripture to Answ prove the
Holy Ghost a person though they are recorded in your Creed three persons and one God Yet by faith I say as I said before there never was is or shall be but one Personal God even Christ Jesus alone blessed for ever as onely those who believe my Revelation can with me understand Isa 43. 10 11. Luke 1 35 that the Holy Ghost was the Eternal Spirit or invisible Soul of Christ as it is written The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the highest shall overshadow thee yea that was the Holy Ghost or invisible Soul of Christ which dissolved into seed there dyed in the womb of Mary and quickned it self into a son of flesh blood and bone yea the Holy Ghost remained with him and in him all the time he was upon earth yea that was the Holy Ghost or Eternal Spirit that dyed in the grave for they signifie both one and the self same thing as it is written The Spirit of God descended upon him like a Dove so the Holy Ghost descended upon him like a Dove So that take it which way thou pleaseth the Holy Ghost or Eternal Spirit which is the Godhead Father vvas in no Person of its ovvn but the Person of Christ onely Reason From those Scriptures thou hast quoted I understand that the Holy Ghost vvas not in the person of Christ but in Heaven a Person of its own as it is clearly recorded and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a Dove upon him Luk. 3. 21. and a voyce came from Heaven which said Thou art my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased And so in the rest of the Evangelists it is written Th●t the Heavens were opened unto him and he saw the Spirit of God descending l●ke a Dove and lighting upon him So that I do not deny but that the Spirit and the Holy Ghost is both one yet I cannot believe but that the Holy Ghost is in a form or shape of its own and that in Heaven when Christ was upon earth as it written The Holy Ghost d●scended from Heaven upon him And b●sides it is clear that Christ had a Father then in Heaven that sent the Holy Ghost and said Thou art my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased Faith In answer to this I shall unfold this deep secret which none of thy Seed can ever understand yet that it may be recorded for the blessed seed of faith that shall hereafter believe in our Commission I infallibly declare That there is a Holy Ghost as also a gift of the Holy Ghost Reason But before thou speakest of this I desire if thou canst remove this great stumbling block What Father this was that said Thou art my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased and if Elias as thou hast at large treaaed with me in the third Chapter then tell me by what Authority could Elias call Christ his beloved Son and why did Ch●ist make use of his Creature to call his Creator Son surely it cannot be Elias that should assume such a prerogative to call Christ Son but it must be God the Creator of all things that did call Christ his beloved Son otherwise Christ would never have so seriously and confidently h●ve called Elias his Father Faith As I have formerly said so I say again That herein consists the infiniteness of Eternity tha● he could become time yea so far deny and abase himself as to be protected by his Creature for as it is written In all things he became like unto us sin onely excepted not like unto the seed of reason but the seed of faith yea he was like unto his Prophets and Messengers in point of Commissio● for though Christ as he was God the Father gave all Commissions yet now from Elias he took a Commission himself and for that end and purpose before he took his journey in the fl●sh as in the third Chapter I have declared wherefore he took up Elias that he might present the very place and authority of God as when God was there himself Elias being the Seed of his own body he could trust him when he could trust none of the Angels and therefore he took upon him the seed of Abraham and not the Heb 2. 16. nature of the Angels Now having taken him up into glory in that his time was nigh that he must fulfil his promise to the seed of Adam I say he commissionates Elias with Authority Power and Majestie like himself creating excepted to take care of Christ the onely God in this his difficult journey by which Authority Elias had full power to protect Christ in his infancy and confirm his Revelation both in Doctrine and Miracle and to call him his Son as Christ was to call Elias his God and Father as at his death he acknowledgeth Mark 16 34 35. Elias Elias my God my God why hast thou forsaken me Which some of them that stood by understanding his language said behold he calleth Elias which none but the true believers of our Commission can understand and therefore must perish for want of the true knowledge of this So that from the Revelation of faith I say herein was the infini●e wisdom of the Godhead made manifest in Christs Humility that although he was the Creator yet he took upon him the form of a servant and in the place of his glory authorized his Creature Elias as a Father Though the Scripture intricately prove this yet who but the Elect of the Lord can believe this that Elias had power to send down gifts of the Holy Ghost in what form he pleased to commissionate Christ the giver of all Commissions and yet the Eternal Spirit or Holy Ghost was in the Person of Christ alone Reason Let me but ask thee this once and I sh●ll trouble thee no longer that is let me hear thee discover thy thoughts betwixt the Holy Ghost and the gifts of the Holy ●host whether it be a Person of its own or onely in the Person of Christ alone Faith As I said before so I say again That if the Holy Ghost had a Person of its own so the Lord and giver of life then its Person must be in the form of a man suitable to the person of Christ in that it is the very nature of Christ so every Nature hath its own form so the form of Christ but that which descended upon Christ was not the Holy Ghost but the gift of the Holy Ghost for as I have said before Christ who had the Holy Ghost in him invested the gift thereof upon Elias that so Elias might protect and preserve Christ in his non-age as aforesaid so that I say the essence of the Holy Ghost is inherent in Christ alone from whence the gifts or influence of the Holy Ghost flows for by my Revelation I know that when Christ ascended to his Majestie on high he sate down on the right hand which signifies that Elias's power and authority
are born of women there hath not risen a greater then John the Baptist and yet thou and thy ●eachers will not believe unless present vengeance fall upon thee But know this though the Pharisees desired a sign from Christ and Mat. 12. 38. none would be given them but the sign of the Prophet Jonas yet know this he was Christ the Eternal God for all that and though Christ rebuked James and John in the saying Luke 9. ●4 Lord wilt thou that we command fire from Heaven and consume them even as Elias did yet they were not for the future freed from the Eternal fire in their souls So let me tell thee and yet not I but the Revelation of the Holy Spirit within me though not presently yet it shall flame within thee as fire from Heaven and that without end till it consume all thy hopes of salvation and thou shalt know and finde that this sentence of thine shall shut the Heavens and it shall rain no more showers of mercy or comfort in thy soul so that I say though thou finde it not presently thou shalt as surely feel it after death as Christ is God the Eternal Father And what if miracles did belong to our Commission as they do not in that ours is the Commission of the Spirit so our sentence spiritual thou wouldst no more believe then thou dost now but rather call us Conjure●s unless the tenor of our Commission was as the two former to execute present vengeance and if it were executed once or twice and not upon every occasion thou wouldst be as much seared up in unbelief as thou art now Reason If thy Commission were as real truth as Moses and the Apostles and such a power did attend thine as was in theirs then I should as truly believe in yours as now I do in them Faith Ah blinde Soul thou dost not know what is truth and what not for if thou didst thou wouldst as really believe in me as in them But from my Seedspring I tell thee That thou nor none of thy Seed do really believe that the Scripture is a true Record of the Transactions of Christ thou mayest talk of it and preach from it but if thou wert really perswaded in thy own soul of the truth therein contained then thou wouldst believe in us for the Apostles writ of us as Moses and the Prophets writ of Christ to come and therefore if thou didst believe in them that have nothing but a dead letter to prove them Commissioners surely then thou wouldst believe in us that are living and know this if the Roman Authority had not established Moses and the Apostles Writings for Scripture then it had been believed no more then ours for thy Fathers in the days of their lives notwithstanding their miracles did no more believe in them then thou dost in us and know this the same power that attended them upon externals doth belong to our Commission in spirituals and therefore as the Apostle had power in his Commission to curse either Angel or man that did preach any other Doctrine so we have the same power in ours Reason What then doth not their Commission belong to us in these days successively as it did to them what then is the meaning of those Scriptures where it is writ The Scriptures aforetime are written for our learning and again it is writ Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded Mat. 28. 20. you and loe I am with you always unto the end of the world Faith From the Lord of Glory I tell thee That neither of those Commissions do belong to thee or any of thy Seed either by succession or otherwise for from my Seed of Faith I declare That the Scripture was never written for the learning of any of thy Seed though none living now present do make it a more Idol for their own gain then thy Seed doth Though I have sufficiently proved this point in the Quakers Downfal yet from my well-spring within me I tell thee That as the Scripture was written by the revelation or inspiration of Faith so I know it was writ for the use of none but the Believers of that Faith which neither thou nor none of thy Seed are partakers of For as Paul the great Commissioner was the Penman of those sayings so that Scripture that he spake of was the writings of the first Commission viz. Moses and the Prophets which were written before his time and so for the learning of him and all that believed in his Doctrine for our learning that are of the Seed of Faith and for none of the Seed of Reason whatsoever but for our learning The word Plural includes all the Seed of Faith with him were the Scriptures written so the Commissions of Moses and the Apostles were not written for the use of any of the seven Churches but our Commission alone for as none understood the Commission of Moses and the Prophets but the Apostles so none now living understand either of the two former Commissions but this our spiritual Commission now in being and therefore from my Seedspring I tell thee We onely are the Judges of the Scripture whatsoever Reason thy cursed Seed pretend to the contrary as now thou shalt hear an infallible Exposition of the other Scripture which thou hast quoted which all besides our Commission gives a false definition thereof Go ye therefore and teach all M●t 23. ●0 Nations baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you and loe I am with you always even unto the end of the world Now from hence all the seven Churches of thy Seed viz. Papist Episcopal Presbyterian Independent Baptist Ranter and Quaker do suppose that the extent of these words are in force to the end of this world and therefore the Baptists have assumed the Apostles Commission as their own when as if ye were not stone blinde you may read as ye run that this Commission was given to the twelve then living and not to Kiffin and Patience or any other Teacher of the Baptists whatsoever for ye were not born many hundred years after when this command was expressed And loe I am with you always even unto the end of the world with you my beloved Disciples and none other Reason I cannot conceive from this Scripture but there was to be a continuance of the Apostles Commission to the end of this World and though there was none of the Commissioners left to give or invest the same power by imposition of hands yet we having the same Spirit of God in us although not in the same measure yet may we not lawfully follow them as our patern and as the Apostle exhorts Brethren be followers Phil. 3. 17. together of me and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample othervvise vvhat should all the World have done to have knovvn God or