also agreed that it must beare such a sense as may stand with the scripture and the analogie of faith then although we differ about the proper sense of the words yet differ we not about any matter of Faith as you do about originall sinne PAPIST Seeing therefore the Church of Christ continueth visible for â—uer as ours hath done and not theirs wee haue the auncient Fathers for patrones of our cause they be destitute of all antiquitie we haue the truth in many points according to their owne confessione and they consequentlie falshood wee haue the Scriptures and their true interpretation they onelie the bare name and priuate erroneous exposition I conclude that whosoeuer will be saued must not heare them but embrace our old Catholike Apostolike faith PROTESTANT The persons of all the members of the Church of Christ as men haue beene in their times visible are and shall be to the worlds end they haue beene also generally to some of their fellow members visiblie in their times as members of the body of Christ howbeit the visibility of Churches established and in their assemblies worshipping God in the word Sacraments and prayer they haue often wanted as in the Egyptian captiuitie the daies of Elias the captiuitie of Babylon the dispersion caused by Sauls persecution and vnder the ouer-spreading tyrannie of the Romish Antichrist driuing the woman that brought foorth the man-childe into Reuel 12. 13. 14 the wildernesse into a pâ—â—e prepared for her of God During which captiuitie of the Church in seuerall times either heathenish idolatry as in Egypt or Church idolatry as the golden calues and the seruice of Baal before and in the daies of Elias or carnal worship as among the Iewes in the dispersion afore-saide or meere Atheisme as vnder Sanballat and Tobijah or the mysterie of iniquity vnder the shew of pseudochristianitie as in the Apostasie of Antichrist hath borne the sway in the world as the onely Religion Such is the visibility of your Romish apostafie like the visibility of Ierobâ—ams calues of Baals Church of the Scribes and Pharisies and in pretence to build with the Iâ—wes that is the true Church of Christ semblant to Sanballat and Tobijah or at the beâ—â— to Eliashab their friend In this visibility you haue set foorth many goodly Pageants to dazell the eies of all those in whoÌ„ â—he God of this world hath blinded their eiâ—s that the light of the 2 Cor. 4. 3. 4. glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them as the state of Popes and Cardinals the Babylonish magnificence of your temples beset with sumptuous idols the stage play of your Masse with your whole Antichristian tyrannie which you haue vaunted to the world as the harlot her bedecked bed Prou. 7. 15. 17. with ornaments carpets and layes of Egypt perfumed with Mirrhe Aloes and Cinamon and like vnto the picture of Apoc. 17. 3. 4. 5. your Church the mother of whoredomes and abhominations that sitteth vpon a scarlet coloured beast and is arrayed in purple and scarlet and guided with gold and precious stones and pearles and hath a cup of gold in her hand full of abhominations and filthinesse of her fornications Of such visibility wee giue you leaue to boast and reioyce that wee haue no part with you in your glory least wee should also haue part with you in your plagues And albeit GOD hath graunted more visibility to our Churches then you can indure with patience to behold yet make wee not out of such visibility any demonstration that our Church is the true Church That faith that worship which by open confession and practise was visible in our Sauiour Christ and his blessed Apostles which in their holy writings inspired of God they haue deliuered to be seene read and vnderstood to be held and obserued of all the true Church of God is a demonstratiue and infallible visibility which wheresoeuer it is to be seene and discerned prooueth and conuinceth that they are the Church of Christ This is the onely visibility wherby the true Church is to be discerned and knowen which we haue often prooued and we hope is manifest to all mens consciences to be found in our Church and you shall neuer be able while the world standeth to make any sound proofe that your Church hath any such visibilitie but manifestly the contrary What patronage the auncient Fathers lend vnto your cause hath beene before shewed where you alleadged anie thing out of them and often hath beene further in all the fundamentall points wherein you â— dissent from vs and from the truth You imitate some rites twice dead and buried since they vsed them you are confident to affirme some things whereof they doubted you take vp their errors for principles of your faith you abuse and peruert their words and phrases to a contrarie meaning and in these onely as touching your Popish religion you follow the Fathers but their indicious testimonies touching the fundameÌ„tall points of Doctrine as originall sinne and the fruit therof concupiscence free will instification the vse of good workes the Sacraments and diuerse other points you will not see or else you peruert as the instable doe the Scriptures to their owne destruction 2. Pet. 3. 16. Compare what they write in one place with that which they write in another note the occasion marke the end discerne the aduersarie they haue to deale with consider the straine of their moued affections acknowledge their tropes and figures of speech you shall finde the Fathers to yeeld you but small helpe and to be but slender patrones of your apostasie on the contrary you shall perceiue that as wee haue the eldest antiquity for proofe whereof we cite the records of Scripture so haue wee the body of all consequent antiquity in all matters of faith touching the Deitie the Trinitie prouidence touching Christ his person natures offices mediation and our redemption by him touching the holie Ghost and his operation in the Church â—ouching the Catholike Church the communion of Saints and all necessarie parts thereof touching remission of sinnes touching the resurrection and eternall life In other matters if some where we varie from the Fathers as they varied one from another and some of them from themselues we haâ—e their leaues I haue before shewed you what difference Cont. Iulian. Pelag. lib 1. Augustine makes betweene Fundamenta fides Alia de quibus doctrissimi atque optimi Catholicae regulae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant betweene the Foundations of faith and other pointes whereabout the learned stayd best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree yelw â—hout impeachment to the frame of faith To your vaine pretence of our consent in any point of your Popish faith enough hath beene said before As for the Scriptures you haue them indeene and you keepe them so close that neither your selues wil search them as you ought nor suffer those that wold You banish the
God had not 2. Thes 2. 10. 11. sent you strong illusions to beleeue lies because you would not beleeue the truth it could not be that you should thus grope at noone day and still call for proofe in that which is so abundantly proued After the Popes had once fully gotten into the chaire of Apostasie the ashes of those witnesses of God whom for the testimonie of Iesus Christ you haue slaine as they are kept in store for a witnesse against you on earth so their spirits now in heauen do cry against you as the bloud of Abel against Cain Since the discouery of that Man of sinne in these latter yeares you haue found our congregations through Gods goodnesse much thicker in all nations then you would haue suffered if your Nimrods armes had bene as long as they are wont to be But what if we should onely answer you that the first of these 1600. is more in triall of truth then all the rest as that one day of the institution of Matrimonie betweene one man Math. 19. 4. and one woman ioyned together by an vnseparable knot is more to proue the integritie thereof then all the yeares succeeding wherein Polygamie and Dinorce had preuailed Would you renounce the triall of these incorrupted times and appeale to the latter wherein sundry corruptions were apparantly crept in What were this else but to shunne the light as the maner of deceiuers and euill doers is What the religion of this hundreth was nay what it ought to be for euer let the Apostolike writers witnesse and it the Religion of the Protestant congregations be the same with the religion taught beleeued and practised in that hundreth let all the latter times know that they are too young to controle it much more let Popish noueltie retire into the schooles and cloysters where it was bred Lastly all the times succeeding haue imbraced the Scriptures as the very word of God haue retained the confession of faith called the Apostles Creede as agreeable to holy Scriptures and only herein haue sought for the Canon and rule of truth The Protestant congregations holding the same faith and seruing God by the same rule haue therefore on their sides the consent of all ages from Moses to Christ from Christ to his Apostles to this day auouching the faith and seruice of God which they follow and practise and are compassed with a greater cloude of witnesses then all the Popish Canonists Summists Iesuits and Disputants shall euer be able to shew Hence I thus conclude The faith of the first hundreth recorded in the Scriptures and reteined in the ages following holding firmely the Scriptures and the Apostles Creed is the true faith and they so beleeuing and holding the true Church The faith of the Protestant congregations is the same Therefore the faith of the Protestant congregations is the true faith and they the true faith and they the true Church PAPIST They say they haue beene though innisible and they know not where This answer cannot serue nor yeeld any content to a soule desirous of truth For what man carefull of saluation would leaue a Church alwayes visible and knowne as ours hath beene and follow a congregation the beginning whereof is yet fresh in memorie and was neuer heard of before for many ages together as themselues cannot deny PROTESTANT As your religion consists wholly of errors so you must needs defend it by lies and that against your owne knowledge if at least you haue informed your selfe of the truth of that we say Were not Christ and his Apostles visible were not the godly Bishops and Fathers of the Primitiue Church visible say we not that our religion is the same that Christ and his Apostles taught that the true Church of God succeeding in all ages did professe and practise according to the Scriptures whereas on the other side wherein soeuer you differ from vs you differ from the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles and haue new forbished erroneous and hereticall opinions and build vpon mens imperfections and frailties and those neither agreeing with the Scriptures nor with the analogie of that faith which themselues mainteined taught Why then shame you not to affirme that we know not where the witnesses teachers of our religion haue bin for so your meaning must be True it is that against the long continued visibility of your inglorious Synagogue wherby you beare the ignorant in hand that yours is the true Church We answer truely and proue it by instance of the times of Elias and of our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles that the synagogue of Satan is oftentimes and for long time more visible then the Church of God and of Christ and that the Church of Christ is like the Moone as In Psal 10. Augustine Augustine compares it which sometime giues no light at all This our answer may giue content to euery soule that is desirous of truth especially such as will take the paines to search the Scriptures whether the things we say be so or no. As for that your bad asseueration that your Church hath beene alwaies visible and that the beginning of ours is yet in fresh memorie And was neuer heard of before in many ages together as our selues you say cannot deuie it is euen as true as the rest of your religion Vnfold vs the antiquity of that capitall and fundamentall point of your religion Subesse Extran com de maior obed cap. Vnam sanctam Romano pontifici est de necessitate salutis This is your principle of principles and yet as it is contrarie to all records of Scripture wherin there are no footsteps of any such dependance so is it controlled by the cleare testimony of all antiquitie by the primitiue state and constitution of the churches Concil Afric cap. 92. 101. 105. Concil Niceu Can. 6. Epist lib. 6. epist 30. li. 4. epist 38. in all the Christian world and by the iudicious sentence of Gregorie the first a Bishop of Rome And can we not deny that the beginning of our congregation is yet in fresh memorie c. God open the eyes of the blind to see your cunning and sophisticall equiuocation which is now become the idiome and proper language of poperie True it is indeede that the recouery of that libertie which by Gods mercy our Churches now enioy since they came out of the spirituall Babylon which is the Romish Synagogue may be fetched out of late memorie But is this the question betweene vs Or rather whether the beginning of that religion which giues the beeing to our churches and whereby they are distinguished from your Antichristian synagogue be yet in fresh memorie If Christ and his Apostles with their doctrine and faith be but of yesterday then so is ours But if theirs be from the beginning our religion being the same beginneth not one day or howre later then theirs did Lastly be it that the pompous and vainglorie of your synagogue be
Pardons Real presence Eare-shrift c. Therefore the Church of Rome is not the church of God The second Reason PAPIST That is the true faith and religion of Christ which the ancient and learned Fathers tanght maintained in the floursshing time of the Primitiue Church that is within the first 600 yeares next after Christ and this is so true that our Aduersaries themselues confesse it For M. Iewell sometime of Sarisbury cried out in this maner O Gregory ô Leo ô Augustine ô Ambrose c if we be deceiued you haue deceiued vs. The Church of England In his chaleng Sermon at Paules crosse also continueth their memorie in euerie Kalender as it doth of the blessed Apostles which fauour no question it would not afford them if it iudged them Heretikes or false teachers And as no Protestant I thinke dare say that they bee damned in hell for hereticall or false doctrine So most sure I am that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation upon them that liued so neere Christ then vpon such as liue now and be partiall in their owne cause PROTESTANT The floure of your reasons is now gone and indeede a floure for the bright beames of truth shining froÌ„ the Sunne of righteousnesse in the firmament of his word hath dimmed the grace and defaced the beautie of this your vaine best reason The second reason comming to rescue the former at vnawares thinking to smite his enemie wounded his fellowe to the heart For if the long continued pompe of your supposed Church be proofe enough that yours for sooth is the true Church and if the priuiledge of the true church which you chalenge to yours be that it cannot erre and consequently we are to beleeue what your Church teacheth what needed you then to haue abated this last 1000 yeares and to appeale to the flourishing time of the Primitiue church within the first 600 years Surely this is a plaine coÌ„fession against your selues that your long coÌ„tinued Church comes much short in dignity credit and authority of those 600 yeares Else why do you not rest contented with your owne testimony as being the preseÌ„t Oracle of the church but are faine to borrowe proofe of the Primitiue Church considering that if long continuance be the matter though your persons be yonger and your age but of yesterday yet by the addition of so many yeares your Church hath a grauer head and surely more wrinckles in her face then in those former times she had If therefore the ancienter testimonies do more stroÌ„gly proue the truth then is theremore certain trial of truth to be fetcht froÌ„ the early beginnings of the church then froÌ„ the long continued doating age as plainly appeareth of your Church And surely so did the Fathers within those 600 yeares they prooued their doctrines and maintained euery truth not by the face of long time but by the authority of the first times wherein Christ and his Apostles vndoubtedly taught the truth and by vndoubted records of diuine inspiration that is the holie scriptures commended the same to all posterity Augustine Epist 19. ad Hieron Ego solis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur c. I haue learned to yeeld only to those books of scripture which are now called Canonical that feare heuer that I firmely beleeue no author of theÌ„ in writing to haue coÌ„mitted anie error others I so reade that how holie or learned soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a matter to bee true because they so thought but because they were able to perswade me either by those canonical authors or by probable reason that it swarneth not from truth And therefore ad Vincentium Donatist Epist 48. Nâ—lâ— contra diuina testimonia c. Haue no will or desire out of the writings of Bishops togather cauils against the diuine testimonies first because this kind of writings is distinguished from the cannon c. But let vs see your reason That is the true faith which the ancient and learned Fathers taught in the first 600 yeares But they were of our religion and not of the Protestants Therefore ours is the true faith and not the Protestants First is your Proposition vniuersall or indefinite If you say The ancient and learned Fathers taught the true faith in all points necessarie to saluation we will not sticke with you but if you say that withall they taught nothing swaruing from the true faith neither can we yeeld it vnto you neither do the Fathers themselues yeeld it one to another neither doth any one of them presume to chalenge so much to him self neither wil your selues I am sure generally also affirme You know the contrary of Tertullian Cyprian and Origene Augustine did not in all things accord with Ierome nor allow whatsoeuer himselfe had written and these things are not vnknowne to you nor vnconfessed by you Wherefore if you will haue your proposition vniuersally taken it is false that whatsoeuer the Fathers taught is the true faith If indefinitly then will it fall out to be onely particular of some things suppose the most things that the ancient learned Fathers taught that they agreed with the true faith So that if you could proue that your Popish faith consisting in the points of your nouelties vnknowne to Christ and his Apostles and of your Apostafie from the true faith did in some points agree with some opinions of the learned Fathers yet would it not follow that yours is the true faith vnlesse you could manifestly proue that the Fathers therein held the true faith For your Popish faith partly hath an apish imitation of some outworne rites of ancient times as Vnctions Exorcismes c. partly carcheth hold of some of their errors as prayer for the dead partly proceedeth on boldly to affirme of those things whereof they spake doubtfully as Purgatory partly peruerteth and abuseth their words against their meanings sometime taking that literally which they meant tropically as Sacrifice Oblation Priest Altar c. sometime wresting their words from that good sense which they beare by proportion of their writings to that bad and absurd sense which since you haue violently drawne them to as Merit Poenitentiam agere Confession Satisfaction c. Contrariwise the Protestants religion is in substance the same which the ancient learned Fathers taught wherein the Protestants therefore follow them because they haue followed the Scriptures as hath bene often mainteined proued and demonstrated to your stopped eares and hardened hearts Briefly the Proposition vniuersally vnderstood is false The Assumption vniuersally vnderstood of all their faith and religion is false of your Popish faith Therefore the conclusion followes not But let vs see how strongly or rather straungely you proue your Proposition First you say it is so true that your aduersaries confesse it for M. Iewell sometime of Sarisburie c. That godly and learned Bishop was confident that you could not bring any one sufficient sentence out of
any Father or Councell for the space of 600. yeares after Christ to proue any of those points named in that chalenge not that he made Fathers or Councels the rule of his faith but rather affirmeth with Augustine Sancta Scriptura nostrae doctrinae regulam De bono viduit cap. 1. The holy scripture pitcheth the rule of our doctrine Rom. 1. 16. figit and if he had found either in Fathers or Councels any thing swaruing from this rule he would haue forsaken them and cleaued to the Scriptures as he hath told you in his learned Apologie We know that the Gospell of Iesus Christ is the power of God vnto saluation and that therein consisteth eternall life And as Paul warneth vs we do not heare no Gal. 1. 8. not an Angel of God though he come from heauen if he go about to pull vs from any part of this Doctrine Secondly you say the Church of England continueth their memorie in the Kalendar as it doth of the blessed Apostles c. What meane you so to ouer-reach doth the Church of England put no difference between them and the Apostles for so much you would imply and must or else it comes too short of your purpose The Church of England preserueth their memorie as of godly and painefull men that bestowed themselues to serue the Church of God but yet it doth not lift them aboue the degree of men and therefore doth not exempt them from erring nor their writings from errors which immunitie is proper to the Scriptures inspired of God and cannot be ascribed to any writings of men neuer so godly or learned so long as they are written onely by a priâ—at spirit Neither is euery teacher that faileth in some point of truth to be condemned as a false teacher much lesse as an heretike and therefore it may be doubted and denied that all that the Fathers of those times haue written is true and yet they not reputed either as heretikes or false teachers Thirdly you say No Protestant you thinke dare say that they are damned in hell No verily and yet you picking out those errors which vnto them were veniall because they built vpon the foundation which is Iesus Christ alone and making them principles of your faith and religion and laying them indeed as another foundation besides Christ may be damned in so doing except you repent Fourthly Most sure you say you are that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ theu vpon such as liue now and are partiall in their owne cause Men of reason in matters of reason may relie vpon men But men of faith in matters of saluation wil relie only vpon Christ the Author finisher and foundation of our faith the Heb. 12. 2 1 Cor. 3. 11. Heb. 2 10. 1 Tim. 2. 5. Act. 7. 37. Iohn 14. 6. Prince and Mediat or of our saluation the only undoubted Prophet and teacher of the true and vndoubted way vnto eternall life in a word the onely way the onely truth the onely life But see with what cunning you deale Your simple sheepe must relie their saluation vpon those Fathers who those Fathers were what they wrote and how they shall vnderstand them you must be their interpreters So in effect they must relie their saluation vpon you which is against your owne rule For you liue now and are iustly to be supposed partiall in your owne cause Againe in this your comparison of persons vpon whom we ought rather to relie our faith marke how slily you shut out Christ and his word and seeke to cast an imputation vpon the Protestants that they teach men to rely their faith vpon them which is as far from them as it is from you to teach your Disciples to relie their faith vpon Christ and his word No no we counsell the faithfull as Christ our Master doth to search the Scriptures and with the Apostle to Iohn 5. 39. build their faith vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Eph 2. 20. whereof Iesus Christ is the head and corner stone Lastly God open your eies to acknowledge the strength of truth which out of your owne mouth beareth witnes against your selfe you say that men ought rather to relie their saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ Ought not then all faithfull men most of all to relie their saluation vppon them that liued neerest vnto Christ And who liued neerer him then the holie Apostles and Euangelistes Or what writinges came more immediatly from him then theirs especially considering that these were chosen by him selfe to be his witnesses vnto all the ends of the world and Act. 1. 8. Eph. 4. 13 vnto the end of the world by the writings inspired of God Wherefore that you may see how willing we are to accorde with you in the truth we confesse and graunt that faithfull men ought to relie their saluation rather vpon Psal 19. 4. Rom. 10. 18. those that saw the Lord Iesus Christ and were his witnesses and haue stretched out the line of their writinges to the worlds end theÌ„ vpon any or all that haue beene since whether they be Councels Popes Bishops or Doctors of what place holines or learning soeuer Thus forcibly haue you proued your Proposition that whatsoeuer the fathers of the first 600. years wrot is thetrue faith for that must be the extent of your proposition or else it will not serue your turne the best and strongest part of your proofe which you haue set in the last place makes most against your selfe as hath bin shewed Now then let vs come to your Assumption PAPIST But as certaine it is that they were of our religion and not of the Protestants which is so euident that no man which peruseth their works can make anie doubt thereof and to giue an instance Saint Austen that liued 1200. yeares agoe and was so wonderfull for learning that happilie since the Apostles time the world had neuer his like one whome the Protestantes also soeme most to admire and like of and this ancient holie and learned Father beleeued and taught them yea and the whole Church of his time aâ— we beleeue teach now If any maÌ„ make doubt hereof let him read his 22. book and 8. chap. De ciuitate Dei he shal find as much as I affirme concerning prayer to Saints reuerence to Relikes and Pilgrimage to holie places three of the most odious points as they thinke in all our religion PROTESTANT To proue that the Fathers of the first 600. were of your religion and not of the Protestants you tell vs that one of them S. Augustine was so Doth this proue that all were so Next how proue you that Saint Augustine was so because as you pretend he held some points of your religion as Praier to Saints reuerence to Relikes Pilgrimage to holie places praier for the dead Do these points coÌ„prehend al your religion Againe may it not
take vpon him to define of what nature the sins are which by the praiers of the liuing are remitted to the dead what those sins are saith he which so hinder coÌ„ming to the kingdom of heauen that yet through the merits of their holy frends they obtaine pardon after death it is most hard to find most dangerous to define I surely euen vntill this time although I haue taken paines enough about it yet could neuer De ciui Dei lib. 21. cap. 27. attaine to search it out Secondly Augustine so praieth for his mother Monica that yet he doubreth not that she in her life time obtayned remission of all her sins by the bloud of Christ dispeÌ„sed to her waiting dailie at his Altar he therefore praieth only that it may be vnto her according to her faith that she may be preserued froÌ„ the powers of darknes receiue the 1 Pet. 1. 9. end of her faith the saluation of her soule that is he praieth for her consuÌ„mation in the kingdome of God of Christ For Augustine himselfe confesseth Therefore no new merits are purchased for the deade when their friends do anie good for them but these things are recompensed to their former merits De verb. Apost Ser. 32 What is this to Popish praier for the gaole deliuery of souls that are in the pains of Purgatory of whoÌ„ you fain that many are the sooner deliuered by your lip-labors a deuise of late times to improue the Popes reuenues and to enrich Cloysters and idle bellies Lastly Augustine himselfe being so vnsetled in the matter of Prayer for the dead that he is faine to bring strange interpretations of the vse of Prayer and other charities for the dead For these being generally done for all the dead he saith that For those that are very good they are thankesgiuings for those that are very euill although they be no helpe to them yet are they comforts to the liuing and yet after that he saith they auaile to make their paines lighter and their damnation more tolerable which if it be so is some helpe for the middle sort they are propitiations that is supplicatorie praiers for pardon of their sinnes which yet speaking of his mother Monica he saith she had in her life time And to salue the Confes lib. 9. cap. 13. 2. Cor. 5. 10. Scripture which saith that euery one shall receiue according to that he hath done in his life he is faine to say that these in their life time deserued to haue benefit by the Churches prayers which what it is else but remission of sinnes Augustine I say being thus inwrapped in vncertainties maruaile you that Caluine said it was anile votum c. an old womans desire which her sonne did not examine by the rule of Scripture but of a naturall affection was desirous to approue vnto others Where resolution wanted in the matter there could be no sufficient warrant whatsoeuer you say to the contrary PAPIST About particular and auricular confession of sinnes we haue also the authoritie of antiquity as the same Caluine informeth Inst lib. 3. cap. 4. sec 7. Auricular confession ancient vs. I maruaile quoth he with what face they dare contend that the confession whereof they speake was ordained by Gods law the vse whereof I confesse was passing auncient but easily can I proue that in old time it was free Nay then with what face dare he deny that to be ordained by Gods law For what man of reason can thinke that antiquitie would haue vsed it had it not descended from Christ and his Apostles or what power could haue brought it into the Church it being so contrarie to our proude nature had not the Sonne of God himselfe planted that doctrine But it was free in old time saith he What then For do we not know that the Communion was so likewise in olde time If then the Church of England may make a law to bind men once in the yeare to the Communion may not the Catholike Church do the like for confession Still Caluine giueth vs the ancient Fathers but reserueth the Scriptures for himselfe we take what be granteth but deny what he requireth PROTESTANT Confession of some particular sinnes specially such as lay heauie vpon the conscience but not of euery particular sinne with euery circumstance and that to euery parish priest in secret which is your popish eare-shrift such confession I say to a Priest by speciall order of the Churches appointed thereunto Caluine doth confesse and well may to be very ancient and yet maintaine popish eare-thrift to be very yong as receiuing his first authoritie from the Laterane councell vnder Innocentius 3. in the yeare of our Lord 1215. as Caluine in the same place telleth you But you aske with what face be dare that it was ordained by Gods law For you say what man of reason can thinke that antiquitie would haue vsed it had it not descended from Christ and his Apostles Tertullian whom you will not deny to be a man of reason though he shew the antiquitie of offerings for the De Coron milit dead yet confesseth there is no Scripture for it Therefore your forcible reason hath neither force nor grace when you thus conclude Antiquitie vsed confession of particular sinnes to a Priest Therefore it was ordained by Gods law Besides doth not M. Caluine proue vnto you that antiquitie held it not to be of diuine institution for otherwise Nectarias Bishop of Constantinople would not haue abrogated it for the abuse of it neither would Chrysostome after him haue giuen so much liberty from such confession as he doth as he is alleaged by M. Caluine in the next section to that you mention See Inft. lib. 3. cap. 4. Sec. 8. therefore with what face you chalenge him in that wherein he bringeth so sufficient proofe The proofe by him there alleaged I set not downe at large because if you will you may as easily finde them set downe by him as you could find this peece by you alleaged But whether your corner-shrift be of that Antiquity that you pretend if Caluins proofes perswade you not see what Beatus Rhenanus writeth Moreouer for no other cause haue we here vsed the testimonies of manie then to this end that no man Argâ—â— in Tertul lib. de pâ—nitent should maruaile that Tertullian hath spoken nothing of this corner or secret confession of sinnes committed which at that time was vtterly vnknowen And in another place in his book De poenitentia Admonit de Tertul dogmat he mentioneth onlie publike confession And againe Not onlie in Tertullian but euen in those which liued manie ages after there is onelie mention of publike pennance and confession If it had descended from Christ and his Apostles it could not haue beene so earely and so long out of vse Such is the antiquity of your Eareshriâ—t Your next reason to deriue it froÌ„ Christ and his Apostles is because it being a
Sess 3. cap. 1. Can. 1. body is in the sacrament Circūscriptiuè But your Trent Councell saith that the body of Christ is conteined in the sacrament of the Eucharist Wherfore although Luther had an opinion of a Real presence by himself which he could not tell how to expresse nor would haue any disputation about the maner yet in as much as he was farre from allowing your Popish charme whereby you worke your monstrous Transubstantiation nor helde any carnall eating neuer alleage Martin Luthers Real presence to giue countenance to your carnall presence The Apologie may well acknowledge him an excellent man sent of God to giue light to the world and yet not allow of his error in any thing neither will we say that euery wrong beliefe euen in matter of the sacrament bringeth damnation to a godly man otherwise holding the foundation And lastly Martine Luthers priuate opinion is no principle of our religion as you very well know PAPIST These things being so with what conscience can the Protestants iustlie exclaime against vs for defending a speciall confession of our sinnes absolution of the Priest the vse of Images and the picture of Christ crucified the holie ceremonies of oile and exorcisme copes and holie vestiments that Angels know our praiers and may be praied vnto that Christs soule descended into hell for the deliuerie of the holy Fathers that died before his sacred Passion the Real presence of Christ in the sacrament when as all these points either in expresse termes or by necessarie consequence be gathered out of the grounds of their owne Religion PROTESTANT These things being so that no one of the points mentioned is any principle of our Religion nor in any one of the points which we acknowledge do we agree with the Papists and the last of the seauen is none of ours with what conscience could a Papist go about to raise a reason for Popish idolatrie out of the principles of our religion in the end neither build vpon any principle of our Religion nor proue any agreement betweene Popish confession and absolution and that which the Church of England vseth betweene the signe of the Crosse as it is vsed in the Church of England and Popish Images betweene Godfathers and Abrenunciation and popish oile and exorcisme as now they are betweene the decencie of the Surples and the superstition of Popish vestemints betweene the doctrine of some Protestants touching the article of descending into hel Popish Limbus no nor yet betweene Martin Luthers Real presence and Popish carnal presence wheras no one of these Popish points can either in expresse terms or by any necessary cōsequēce be gathered either out of any principle orany practise or ceremonie in our religion as hath been shewed PAPIST The Fourth reason That is the true Church which hath the scriptures on their side and expoundeth them in that sense and meaning which was intended by the holie Ghost and none can deny but al this is verified of the Catholike Church and not of the Protestant as a fewe plaine arguments shall make manifest First therefore no reason in the world can the Protestants aleage to proue that the scriptures be theirs or to iustifie their interpretation which we cannot bring also for vs. For let them pretend conference of places recourse to the fountaines of the Greeker Hebrue or what else they will all that we can say for our selues and with a◠great probability as they and so in any iudgmet not palpablypartial we nothing inferior On the cōtoary we to maintaine our expositiō beside all other helps cite the consent of ancient Fathers the cōmon practise of Gods Church the decrees of generall Councels none of which they will stand to and therefore in all equity and reason wee passing much superiour can we then lacke the true sense of scripture that haue all these to backe our interpretation specially that of Gods Church in generall councels or can the Protestants haue it that be destitute of all these as their deniall of them doth euidentlie proue and conuince PROTESTANT This forcible Reasoner seemeth now as if he would come to vs and ioyne issue with vs to be tryed by the Scriptures whether the Popish Church or our Church be the true Church But surely if there be no more force in his reason then plainenes in his dealing this reason wil be like his fellowes and so proue neither forcible nor plaine For when the reckoning of his reason is cast vp he calleth backe the triall of the true Church from the scriptures to his pretended Fathers and Councels and againe from them to Gods Church that is in his meaning the Popish Church from whence all vseth to be deuolued to the Pope And so in conclusion the question being whether the Popish Church be the true Church we must be tried by the Pope who were much to blame if he would not say that his owne Church is the true Church for euen theeues will say that they are honest men Your owne Cannon law hath prouided that in all matters of faith all men yea euen all Bishops must referre themselues to the Pope Quoties c. As often as anie matter Caus 24. q. 1 of faith is debated I thinke that all our brethren and fellow Bishops ought to referre the matter to none but to Peter that is to the authoritie of his name and honour What is the authority of Peters name and honour but the Pope and therefore the Glosse there setteth downe in the margent It is the Popes office to determine a question moued about faith And Thomas Aquinas It belongeth to faith to sticke to the Popes determination Opuse con error Graec. it matters of faith yea and in those things also that belong to good manners If then in matter of faith or maners we cannot agree vpō sense of scripture the Pope must strike the stroke which he will be sure shall not hurt himselfe So very fitly agreeth vnto you that which Athanasius speaketh against Orat. 1. con Arria◠the Arrians They presume to determine of faith and being themselues guiltie and obnoxious to indgment like vnto Caiaphas they vsurpe the office of indging These are the men that will proue their Church to be the true Church by hauing the scriptures on their side but they will be the interpretors of scriptures by the mouth of their Pope Well go too though vnder the bare pretence of scriptures you meane to bring in the Pope yet let vs see how you proue that the popish Church which you falsly call the Catholike Church hath the scriptures on her side and expoundeth them by the sense intended by the holy Ghost Your first argument is onely a vaine brag Forsooth you can bring any reason for your expositiōs that the Protestāts can bring for theirs as conference of places recourse to the fountaines and what else they will and with as great probabilitie as they Why then do you not vse to follow
that course in trying out the true meaning of the scriptures Why do you Trid. Concil Sess 4. Dec. 2. without all conference of places tie all men to such a sense onely as the holy mother Church that is your Popish Church holdeth to whom you say it belongeth to iudge of Trid. Concil ibidem the true sence of scriptures or whereupon all the Fathers consent in one which you know to be imposible to finde Why do you exclude the originall Bibles and bind all men in expositions to your vulgare Latine as authenticall and vpon no pretence to be refused Whatsoeuer you boast your owne coÌ„sciences tell you that conference of places and recourse to the fountaines will do your cause more harme then good And heere I wish the reader to obserue how sly lie you insinuate that in conference of places recourse to the fountaines or any other help that we vse there is onely probility and therfore these meanes will not serue there is no rest till you come to that which you call Gods Church in general councels which in conclusion shall be all laied in the Popes lap of which pierlesse meanes to know the vndoubted sense of scripture it is maruaile that Augustine in his bookes De Doctrina Christiana haÌ„dling that point at large forgatto speak specially if as you pretend this be the onely sure way that worthy Father spent his time belike in those meanes that haue onely a probability in them as the Phrase of scripture the circumstances of places comparison with other places analogie of faith c. And neuer thought of that which by your saying is worth all the rest As you haue onely boasted of conference of places and recourse to the fountaines so do you also of the consent of auncient Fathers whereunto your selues will not be bound For when Cardinal Caietane as Andradius Dcfens fid .. Trid. lib. 2. reporteth professeth that sometimes he will inteprete the scriptures against the straeme of the Doctors and exhorteth the readers to trie his writings not by other mens preiudice but by context of scripture some accused him for it as a fautor of the Lutherans But Andradius defendes him and giues his reasons First because the Fathers in infinit places specially of the old testamet leauing the literall sense which he confesseth doth onely serue to proue doctrine runne vpon other senses Heere a man may freely depart from their exposition and search for the literall sense Secondly because the Fathers very ofteÌ„ seeking for the true sense of the scriptures haue giuen senses very diuerse and vnlike one to another which if it be true when will you finde the consent of the Fathers about the sense of Scripture Therefore Andraduis concludes that no man is bound to their expositions but is at free libertie forsaking them all to trie what he can do by Gods help and to find out another new sense vnlike to the ancient Fathers expositions Be not offended with him he doth you more seruice then you are ware of For now you shal be at liberty to put vpon the scripture what sense you will though it be against the streame of the Fathers Thus you followe the coonsent of the ancient Fathers to whose sleeue when it comes to the iumpe you will not be pinned Andradius to serue your turne can alleage Augustines iudgment Epist 3. ad Fortunat. alleaged Dist 9. Can. Neque Nobis enim licebit c. For it shall bee lawfull for vs sauing the honorable respect which is due to the holy Fathers to mislike and reiect something in their writings if peraduenture we find that they haue otherwise iudged then the truth will beare by Gods help vnderstood either of others or of our selues Whereunto we will also adde what the same Augustine saith De vnitat Eccles cap. 10. Nemo mihi dicat c. Let no man say to me Or what saied Donatus to me or what saith Parmenianus or Pontius or anie of them for xe may not consent no not to Catholike Bishops if perhaps they be any where deceiued So that they haue held any opinioÌ„ against the Canonical scriptures May not these testimonies of Augustine as wel be alleaged held good on our part as on yours To conclude in this point against your appeale to Scriptures you vsually obiect that Heretikes alleage scriptures It is true and Diuels too but corrupted and Christ alleageth them against the Diuel and bids all men search them But do not heretickes also alleage the Fathers as boldly as you that call your selues Catholikes you cannot be ignorant of the mouthie clamor of Dioscorus the Euty chian hereticke in the Councell of Chalcedon I haue the testimonie Concil Chalced. Act. 1. of the auncient Fathers Athanasius Gregorie and Cyril in manie places I am cast out with the Fathers I defend the Fathers opinions I transgresse not in anie thing c. If we may not build vpon Scriptures because heretikes alleage them much lesse may we vpon Fathers which heretikes also alleage Your next meane is The common practice of Gods Church Indeede this rule will serue your turne well For what meane you by Gods Church Forsooth the Popish church So then no interpretation of Scripture may bee good that crosseth any practice of the Popish church so you shall bee sure to keepe all whole You should in wisedom haue concealed this as a mysterie among your selues For what is it else but a conspiracie that whatsoeuer the Scripture saith in words it must at no hand bee vnderstoode to be against Popish practise By this tyrannie your Popes haue gotten the start fall the world in so much that though he runne Dist â—0 Si Papa to hell himselfe and draw innumerable soules with him yet no mortall man may presume to reprooue him because he is to iudge all and none to iudge him Follow him to hell you that will we will follow our Lord Iesus as his word leadeth vs. For him we knowe to be the way the truth and the life Thus notably you proue that you haue the true sense of the Scriptures and therefore are the true Church Yours is the true sense because it is confirmed by your owne practise And why so Forsooth you say so What is this else but aske my fellow if I be a theefe First you set vp a wicked practise then you peruert the Scriptures to maintaine it and afterward prooue your interpretation of Scriptures by your practise Your practise is good Why the Scripture as you vnderstand it is for your practise And why must the Scripture be so vnderstoode because your practise so requires First you get both swords into your hands then you prooue it by Ecce due gladij behold heere two swords First Extrau cont de maior obed cap. Vnam sanctam you get aboue Emperours and Kings then you prooue it by Inprincipio non in principijs in the beginning not in the beginnings Such is your practise and such
are your expositions Your last meanes is the Decrees of generall Councels Can you bring vs the Decrees of generall councels touching all Scriptures what sense they doe and ought to beare If not then belike there is no knowne sense of any other Scriptures then such as generall Councels haue expounded the rest are buried in obscurity But Augustine will not yeeld to that who among other meanes to finde out the true interpretation of Scriptures aduising diligently to search for both De Doctr. Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. such precepts of good life and rules of faith as are plainely set downe in the Scriptures whereof the more a man findes the more capable he is vnderstand the Scriptures yeelds this reason of his aduise In his enim c. For in those words which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are found al those things which containe faith and maners of life Next do generall Councels all agree in one in this also Augustine is a witnes against you writing against the Donatistes who pleaded Cyprians letters Cyprians sentence Cyprians councell But Augustine preferreth the holy Scripture aboue all the writings of Bishops yea aboue all generall Councels allowing the Scriptures alone to haue certaintie and vndoubted truth in them but all the writings of Bishops yea the determinations of Councels to be subiect to the correction of other Bishops after them and likewise of other and later Councels his wordes touching the Councels are Ipsa enim concilia c. For the verie Councels De baptis cont Douat lib. 2. cap. 3. which are held through euerie Region or Prouince doe without all doubt giue place to the authoritie of plenarie or generall Councels which are held from out of all the Christian world and the verieplenarie or generall Councels the former oftentimes are amended by the later when by any experiment of things that is open which was kept close and that is knowen which did lie hid What could haue beene more plainely spoken to bring into order not onely all mens writings but euen generall Councels also to be iudged by the Scriptures and not to iudge ouer the Scriptures Wherefore were it true that you so vainlie boast of that you had the consent of ancient Fathers and the Decrees of generall Councels for you yet were these no sure foundation to build our faith vpon Neither doe wee take it to be any disgrace vnto vs that we refuse to receiue our faith and vnderstanding in the mysterie of godlinesse from men because wee feare the curse which is against the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arme yea rather wee account it an honour to vs both before God and man Ierem. â— â— that wee together with the whole true church of God are built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone that we trie euerie spirit by the Scriptures whether it be of God or no that we prooue Eph. 2. 20. 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 1. Thes 5. 21. Act. 17. 11. Ioh. 5. 39. Esa 8. 20. all things as the men of Beraea did by searching the Scriptures according to the commaundement of Christ and holde that which is good that we haue recourse to the law and to the testimonie and whosoeuer speake not according to that word we holde them to be in darknesse and to haue no light in them From this hold you shall neuer driue vs and yet thanks be to God you haue hitherto beene beaten at your owne weapon and for the principall points of faith and religion haue beene put to silence by a cloud of testimonies both out of auncient Fathers and Councels howsoeuer your brasen foreheads cannot blush nor your leaden hearts relent but still you will crie Fathers Fathers Councels Councels PAPIST Secondly to giue more light and force to the former reason concerning the aucthoritie of Fathers I say that one or two or a few of them may be deceiued and therefore such particular opinions we admit not and so refuse S. Cyprian about rebaptization so we make no doubt but the vniforme and generall consent of them liuing in diuerse and farre distant places and at diuerse times cannot but proceede from the Spirit of all truth that gouerneth the Church and therefore S. Austine speaking of the Fathers that liued Contr. Iuli. lib. 2. cap. 10. before his time hath these excellent words That which they found in the Church they helde fast that which they learned they taught that which they receiued of their fathers the same they deliuered to their Children S. Paul likewise saith that Christ hath Eph. 4. 11. 14. giuen Pastors and Doctors that flourished in the primitiue church and the Protestants cannot deuie but that with their pens and labours they did defend the faith against the Arians Pelagians Donatistes and manie more such pestilent heretikes PROTESTANT First we haue shewed you before that by the iudgement of Cardinall Caietane whom Andradius defends in it it is lawfull yea and necessarie sometimes in interpretation of Scriptures to leaue the streame of the Fathers and follow a diuerse interpretation from them all which might at no hand be admitted if as you presume wherein they generally consent they had beene all guided by the spirit of truth Andradius doth not onely say so but giues good reason for it The literall sense of Scripture saith he doth onelie yeeld arguments to confirme points of religion But the Fathers in infinite staies of the old testament chieflie do leaue the literall sense and follow the tropologicall or allegoricall sense In deciding of Doctrines then which is to be done by the litterall sense what helpe shall we haue from the consent of Fathers who very seldome giue the litterall sense Another reason hee giues that the Fathers in giuing the sense of Scriptures haue giuen verie diuerse sense and vnlike one to another Where then shall wee finde that generall and vniforme consent that you speake of Secondly the spirit of all truth neither guideth the whole church nor any member therof otherwise or by any other instinct then by from the holy Scriptures whereby euery spirit is to be tried So farre then as the Fathers either seuerally or ioyntly doe accord with the manifest truth of Scriptures we follow them without doubting whatsoeuer they deliuer swaruing manifestly from the Scriptures we leaue what they haue probably spoken we receiue as probable alwaies reuerencing their antiquitie gifts and labours but not accounting their iudgements the rule of our faith Thirdly you much abuse S. Augustine in drawing his words which yet serue not your turne from his meaning Lib. 3. cap. 7. manifestly set downe in other places Depeccat merit remiss hauing before alleaged against the Pelagians Cyprian Ierome he addeth this caueat I haue not recited these things to anie such end as if we leaned to the sentences of anie disputers whatsoeuer they were as to Canonicall authoritie but that
it may appeare that from the beginning vnto the present time wherein this noueltie sprang vp this point of originall sinne hath beene so constantlie kept within the faith of the church c. Howbeit the most cleare and full authoritie of this opinion is eminent in the holie Canonicall bookes Likewise ad Bonifac. cont duas epist Pelag. Lib. 4. cap. 8. I thinke it pertaineth to our charge not onclie to bring the holie Canonicall Scriptures witnesses against them which alreadie wee haue sufficientlie done but also out of the bookes of holis men who haue handled them before vs with famous commendation great glorie to bring some documetns or euidences not for that the authoritie of anie disputer is equalled by vs to the Canonicall bookes but to admonish such who thinke that these fellowes say somewhat after what sort the Catholike Bishops following the holie Scriptures haue spoken of these points before the nouell and vaine words of those men In like maner vsing S. Augustines words we say to you We thinke it a part of our charge not onely to bring as witnesses against you the Canonicall Scriptures which alwayes we doe in the first place but also to produce testimonies out of the writings of holy Fathers not that wee mathch their authorie with the Canonicall Scriptures but to let them see who thinke you say somewhat the before your nouell and vaine boasting the Catholike Bishops and Fathers following the Scriptures haue taught as wee doe Which in all the fundamentall points of religion hath been againe and againe prooued vnto you In which points only Augustine maketh reckoning of the consent of Catholike writers Other points saith he there are about which euen the learnedest and best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree Cont. Iul. Pelag lib. 1. among themselues alwaies sauing whole the frame of faith and in some one matter some say better and more trulie then others But this about which we now deale belongeth to the very foundations of faith speaking of originall sinne in children When following Augustines example you first alleadge Scripture and then annexe the consent of Fathers as treading in the steps of the Scriptures wee will honour the Fathers iudgements for the Scriptures sake which they follow This is all which Augustine did or requires others to doe Neither do Augustines words by you alleadged serue your turne For what if the Fathers did constantly hold the Doctrine of originall sinne spread ouer all men and hauing receiued it from their Fathers so deliuered it to their posteritie Doth it follow that Augustine beleeued it either onely or principally because they did constantly teach it You heard the contrary out of Augustine before that that point is clearely and fully to be prooued by the Canonical Scriptures which euen his owne words in this very place doe testifie They all found it before any of them deliuered it Where did they finde it but in the Scriptures The consent of Fathers may helpe to vnderstand the Scriptures but it is no rule to vnderstand them by but rather the Scriptures are the rule to iudge of those truthes wherein the Fathers do consent Lastly Paul indeed saith that Christ gaue vnto his Church pastors and teachers that we should not be caried about with euery vvind of doctrine but Paul saith not that Pastors and Doctors may cary vs about with what doctrines they list or that we haue no libertie to trie their doctrine whether it be of God or no. God the Father saith of his Son Iesus Christ This is my well-beloued sonne heare him Yet our Sauior Christ commandeth his Church to search the Scriptures Paul was called to be an Apostle not by man but by Iesus Christ yet did the men of Beraea trie his doctrine by the Scriptures and are therefore commended by the holy Ghost Will you then be aboue our Sauiour Christ and his holy Apostle Paul to challenge vnto your selues vnder the name of Pastors and Doctors an irregular authoritie to leade the Church of God whither you list and must they followe you blindfold till you fall into the pit For while you pretend to assume this prerogatiue for the Fathers as Pastors and Doctors you meane by that sleight cunningly to conuey it to your selues But if he that prophocieth must prophecie according to the proportion Rom. 12. 6. Gal. r. 8. 1. Tim. r. 13. Tit. 1. 9. of faith if we may not receiue strange doctrine from an Apostle or Angel if Timothie be charged to keepe the true paterne of wholesome words if all Bishops must hold fast the wholesome word according to doctrine if we be charged not to beleeue euerie 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 2. 3. spirit but to trie them because manie false prophets are gone out into the world and for tryall of them haue our rules in the Scripture it will not discharge vs in the day of iudgement to say that we followed as we were led by Pastors and Doctors It will be sayd vnto vs that we had Moses and the Prophets Luk. 16. 29. 1. Pet. ◠19. Ioh. 5. 39. that we had a most sure word of the Prophets that we were commanded to search the Scriptures that we had warning long ago by the Prophet Ieremie Heare not the words of the Ierem. 23. 16. 22. Prophets that prophecie vnto you and teach you vanity they speake the vision of their owne heart and not out of the mouth of the Lord. If they had stood in my counsell and declared my words to my people then they should haue turned them from their euill wayes To conclude we follow the Fathers and all other true Pastors and Doctors in that which they truly teach vs not because we haue heard it of them but because we are so taught in the Scriptures as the men of Samaria beleeued not for the womans report but because they had heard Christ himselfe Ioh. 4. 41. 42. PAPIST They obiect and say that there is no reason to preferre the Fathers before the Scriptures and captiously they demand whether it be better to follow the openions of men that might erre and be deceiued or the sentence of God himselfe that 〈◊〉 neither deceine nor be deceiued But answer is soone returned that the question betwixt vs and them is not as they would make simple people beleeue whether the Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit but that which I wish al diligētly to note whether for the interpretation true sense of the scriptures we should not rather beleeue the anciēt holy and learned Fathers then those that liue in our daies so far frō the◠Apostles age neither for vertue or learning cōperable to the old Saints of Gods Church Let the question be propounded thus then none of indifferēt iudgmēt wil euer make questiō of the matter PROTESTANT As cunningly as you would shift off the true state of the question by propounding it in our names imperfectly at the first and then of
your owne putting falsly yet neither can you so hide your owne shame nor dazell the eyes of the godly by casting the mist of your owne deuise before them The question therefore is not as you say Whether for the true sense of the Scriptures we should not rather beleeue the auncient Fathers then those that liue in our daies neither onely whether Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit which is but a consequence following vpon that which you affirme touching the interpretation of Scriptures by the consent of Fathers as an infallible rule but this is indeede the question betweene vs and you Whether the Scriptures inspired of God in all fundamentall points both concerning faith and manners be not so cleere and plaine that they do sufficiently interpret themselues against which cleere interpretation none other is to be receiued from what authoritie so euer it come We affirme you deny And by denial make the interpretations of men of more credit then the interpretation of scriptures We haue the word of God on our side Ps 19. 7. The testimonie of the Lord is true and giueth wisedome to the simple 2. Tim. 3. 15. The Scriptures are able to make wise vnto saluation Ioh. 5. 39. Search the Scriptures for in them you thinke to haue eternall life and they testifie of me The men of Berea searched the Scriptures to trie those things which Paul spake which had bene verie vainly done if the Scriptures had not bin a leere light vnto them to discerne of all necessarie doctrines We haue the godly Father S. Augustine cleere for vs in his Quaeapertè c. In those things which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are al those points found which coÌ„teine faith maners of life This being the state of the questioÌ„ let all godly men see whether it be not a reproch to the Spirit of God to accuse his word of such darkenes and obscurity that for the greatest part of the Church of God is not able to vnderstand it no not in the principall matters of faith and godlinesse Could not the Spirit of God in the Scriptures speake to the vnderstanding of the simple you will say yes but perhaps he would not Our Sauiour Christ giueth thankes to his Father for reuealing the doctrine of the kingdome of heauen to Babes and Matth. 11. 25. hiding it from the wise The Apostle Paul saith If our Gospel he hid it is hid in them that perish in whom the God of this world 2 Cor. 4. 3. hath blinded their eies that is of the vnbeleeuers that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them The sheepe of Christ heare the voice of Christ and know it from the voice of strangers and therefore will not follow strangers How Ioh. 10. 4. 5. 27. could the sheepe of Christ who now heare his voice onely in the scriptures know his voice from the voice of strangers if the scriptures were of purpose written obscurelie yea let all reasonable men consider whether it be not a sandie foundation to build our faith vpon forsaking the scriptures inspired of God to depend vpon mens lips especially the eternall word of God hauing branded all men with Psal 116. 11. Rom. 3. 4. Psal 146. 3. Ier. 17. 5. this marke that all men are â—ers and therefore expresly commanding not to trust in any child of man yea cursing euery man that putteth his trust in man Augustine answering to an obiection of the Donatists pretending to be written against him by a cheife man of the Catholikes besides that he chargeth that epistle to be false counterfaite answereth thus Muliò minus c. Much lesse doth the Catholike Church Cont. Crescon lib. 3. cap. 80. regard it whose cause we plead against you from which confidently resting vpon so many diuine testimonies no humane testimonies of any maÌ„ be they true or false can take away that truth which it inioyeth forbeare such things I am but one man the Churches cause is â—n hand amoÌ„g vs not mine the Churches I say which hath learned of her redeemer to put her trust in no maÌ„ To conclude make not the simple people beleeue that we bring into coÌ„parison the interpretations of this age with the interpretations of the ancient Fathers which is a meere calumnious slander of yours We compare not mens interpretations with mens but Gods with mens God hath so tempered the Scriptures that things plainly spokeÌ„ do interpret others not so plaine 2. Cor. 3. 5. That the faith of Gods children should not bee in the wisedome of men but in the power of God Let the cause question be thus propounded and then none of the sheepe of Christ will euer make question of the matter PAPIST Fourthly concerning generall Councels I say that they cannot possiby erre in matters of faith for then might we lawfully disobey them and Christ willeth vs to take him as an Heathen or a Publicane that will not obey the Church then also should Hell gates preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise Then were Matth. 18. 17. Matth. 16. 18. 1. Tim. 3. 15. it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth We therefore that imbrace the definitions of generall Councels possesse the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Protestants that refuse to stand to their iudgement PROTESTANT If Augustine said true as he is before alleaged that the former general Councels haue bin corrected by the later then surely in his iudgment the former must erre and one of them without doubt did erre But what say you to the determination of the Councell of Constance and Basile which you deny not to haue beene generall by whom the Pope is made De Baptis cont Donat. lib. 2. c. 3. inferior to the Councell Did they erre in it or not Albertus Pighiâ—s spareth not to affirme that they decreed plainelie against nature against the manifest Scriptures against all antiquitie and against the catholike faith of Christ So when generall Councels determine not for your tooth you will not sticke to charge them with error and shifts enough you haue to auoide them either they were not gathered by the Pope or not subscribed by the Pope or thinges were violently caried in them as your Melchior Canus obiecteth against Lib. 5. cap. vlt. diuerse Councels and specially against the sixt generall Councel in Trullo which in many points distasteth you And when the account is cast vp it is the Pope that cannot erre for those onely determinations of Councels go for current with you that are confirmed by the head which is the Pope But let vs see your strong reasons whereby you prooue that generall Councels cannot erre First you say Then might we disobey them And Christ willeth vs to take him as an heathen and a publican that will not heare the Church Let vs see your reason in forme If generall Councels may erre then may we disobey them
time and is far from the largenesse of the whole church of Christ Your third reason is Then were it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth Let vs also bring this reason into forme The pillar and ground of truth cannot erre The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church cannot erre First what is this to generall Councels which are not that church which S. Paul calleth the pillar and ground of truth but at the best onely some part of it that church is the house of the liuing God which extends it selfe more largely both in regard of persons and times then to the number assembled in some generall councels in some times of the church Whereby it commeth to passe that as before hath beene noted out of Augustine generall councels haue corrected prouinciall and the later generall councels haue corrected the former Wherefore some generall councell or councels may erre and yet the church remain still the pillar and ground of truth Secondly the Church is called the pillar and ground of truth as hath bene shewed because the Oracles of God are committed vnto it which the church keepeth faithfully to the worlds end By which as by an vndoubted marke the true Church is knowne from the false For the false church casteth away and corrupteth the Scriptures neither doth vphold and beare vp the truth by the preaching of the Gospell as is manifestly seene in the Apostaticall church of Rome Contrariwise the true church conserueth the records of Gods truth and preacheth the doctrine of the holy Scripture for the gathering of the Saints and the edifying Ephes 4. 12. Mal. 2. 7. of it selfe Howbeit as the Priest whose lips should preserue knowledge and at whose mouth they should inquire the law may sometimes faile in the knowledge and shewing of the law So the visible church may in some points of truth hold erroneous opinions and yet continue still the pillar and ground of truth to wit of that truth which is necessarie to saluation in the true knowledge and custodie whereof the true Church shall neuer deceiue nor be deceiued The Apostles and Disciples of our Sauiour Christ at the time of his ascention were the onely true visible church of Christ who vndoubtedly were the pillar and ground of 1. Tim. 6. 3. truth holding fast the foundation which is Iesus Christ and keeping the wholesome word which is according to godlinesse Act. 1. 6 yet did they erre in the matter of restoring the kingdome to Israel Thirdly as before hath bene shewed out of Chrysostome The truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church For as Augustine August 〈◊〉 166. faith to the Donatists In the Scriptures we haue learned Christ In the Scriptures vve haue learned the Church Vnderstanding therefore pillar ground or firmament for the strength stay or foundation the truth is the strength stay and foundation of the church which is built vpon the foundation of the Eph. 2. 20. Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone But the church is the pillar and ground of truth as Galath 29. Cephas lamet and Iohn were counted to bee pillars because by their preaching the Gospel was greatly vpheld Fundatores Ecclesiae erant sustentatores They were founders of the Church and vpholders as Haymâ— noteth out of Augustine So the Church layeth the foundation of truth and beareth vp the truth by confessing and preaching Inqua solu as Primasius noteth nunc veritas stat firmata que solatotum edificium sustinet veritatis that is In vvhich alone the truth novv standeth grounded and which alone beareth vp the vvhole building of truth Not that the church is as Ladie ouer the truth but as an handmaide to the truth Therefore as Peter being a pillar was yet subiect to error so the church is not free from all error although it be the pillar and ground of truth The Protestants therefore that embrace that truth which the true church teacheth according to the Scriptures haue the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Papists that build vpon variable and vncertaine definitions of men not examining them by the infallible and cleere doctrine of the Scriptures PAPIST Fiftly S. Peter saith that no prophecie of Scripture is made by 2. Pet. 1. 20. priuate interpretation Priuate interpretation 〈◊〉 haue none seeing vve interpret them according to that sense vvhich consent of antiquitie and the authoritie of Gods Church deliuereth and the Protestants haue none but priuate seeing their doctrine is that euerie one must examine by the touchstone of the Scriptures vvhat others do teach and so to admit or reiect it as they find it agreeable or not to the vvord of God vvhich if it be not priuate interpretation there can be none sound in the world For vvhat can be more priuate then for euerie priuate vnlearned artificer to make himselfe iudge ouer all and to sentence this mans doctrine as agreeable to Gods vvord and to reiect the common opinion of manie more yea though of ancient Fathers and generall Councels as contrarie to sacred Scripture and yet this is common amongst our aduersaries as daily experience informeth vs. PROTESTANT Priuate interpretation in this place of Peter is opposed to the interpretation of the spirit as in the wordes plainely appeareth and not one mans interpretations to manie mens as you pretend For all mens interpretation if it be humane comming of their owne sense and not taught by the Spirit is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their owne which you call priuate The gift of interpretation as other spirituall gists is of the spirit 1. Cor 13. 10. Luke 24. 45. of God who openeth the hearts of men to vnderstand the scriptures As he opened the heart of Lydia For otherwise as the Act. 1â— 14. veile remaining vpon the hearts of the Iewes they could not see into the end of the law but vvhen the vâ—â—le vv is taken away 2. Cor. 3. 16. from their hearts then by a right vnderstanding of the Scriptures they were conuerred vnto Christ So while the vaile of carnall wisedome which is foolishnesse vvith God is 1. Cor. 1 10. Rom. 8. 7. 1. Cor. 2. 24. vpon the hearts of men they cannot discerne the wisedome of God reuealed in the Scriptures For the Scripture and the true sense thereof is spiritually discerned and onely the Ioh. 6. 45. spirituall man discerneth all things By this spirit are all that beleeue taught of God and euerie man that hath heard and learned of the Father commeth vnto Christ This spirit by the Act. 8. ministerie of Philip led the Eunuch to the true sense of the Prophet Esay Neither Philip nor any of the disciples could giue him the spirit of discerning Neque enim saith Augustine De Trinit lib. 15. cap. 26. aliquis discipuloruns eâ—as dedit spiritum Sanctum For none of his disciples gaue the holy Ghost Neither
can all the Doctors Fathers or Councels in the world beget the true vnderstanding of the Scripture in any one mans heart It is the worke of the heauenly teacher that is the holy Ghost which Augustine ingeniously confesseth Sonus verborum nostrorum Tract 3. in Ioan. epist aures percutit magister intus est c. The sound of our words beateth the eares the minister is vvithin Thinke not that any man doth learne any thing of man We may admonish by the noise of our voice if there be not to teach within our noise is in vaine Will you knovv it indeed brethren Haue ye not all heard this Sermon How manie will depart hence vntaught For my part I haue spoken to all but to whom that annointing speaketh not within whom the holy Ghost teacheth not within they depart vntaught Teachings that are outward are some helpes and admonitions He hath his chaire in heauen that teacheth the hearts Thus farre Augustine Neither do we send men to any other spirit then that which teacheth in the Scriptures for euen in hearing and reading of the scriptures the spirit createth in our harts the true vnderstanding of them as our Sauiour interpreting the Scriptures to his disciples withall opened their hearts to vnderstand them and on the Sabbaoth day opening Luk. 24. 32. 44. 45. the prophecie of Esay withall he opened their hearts that they vvondered at the gracious vvords that proceeded out of his mouth And Philip began at that Scripture which the Eunuch Luk. 4. 22. Act. 8. was reading and preached to him Iesus when the holy Ghost opened his heart to beleeue and when Paul spake Lydiaes heart was opened This spirit which is the spirit of Act. 16. 14. wisedome is also the spirit of adoption and therefore as all the sonnes of God to whom appertaineth the adoption haue receiued also the spirit of adoption and he that hath not the spirit of Christ is none of his so all that are wise vnto Rom. 8. 9. Ioh. 20. 31. Eph. 1. 17. 18. saluation all that doe knowe that Iesus is that Christ the Sonne of God and by beleeuing haue life through his name haue likewise receiued the spirit of wisedome and reuelation to inlighten the eyes of their vnderstanding to knowe the things that are giuen them of God and vvhat that hope is of his calling and vvhat the riches of his glorious inheritance is in the Saints Neither is the whole Scripture so obscure as you would beare men in hand I haue before shewed you the confession of Augustine In those words which are euidentlie set downe in De doctr Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Epist 3. the Scriptures are found all those things which conteine faith and maners of life And in another place Those things which the Scripture euidentlie conteineth as a familiar friend it speaketh without obscuritie to the heart of learned and vnlearned The spirit of God not onely prouiding the Scriptures but also that the reader should meete with the true meaning of them De doctr Chr. lib. 3. cap. 27. as Augustine saith Yea but say you when euerie one must examine by the touchstone of Scripture what other do teach and so admit or reiect it as they find it agreeable or not agreeable with the word of God if this be not a priuat interpretation there can be none found in the world Feare you not thus to open your mouth against heauen and to call that interpretation which is grounded on the Scriptures a priuate interpretation When our Sauiour referred the Iewes to seeke witnes of himself by searching the scriptures did he referre them to a priuate interpretation when the men of Beraea searched the Scriptures vvhether those things that Paul spake vvere so or no. Did they follow a priuate interpretation By this which you call priuate interpretation Augustine exhorteth to search out the meaning of the Scriptures that for the illustrating of the more obscure De doctr Chr. lib 2. cap. 97. speaches examples be taken from the more manifest and some testimonies of certaine senses take away the doubt of the vncertaine In obscure places where the sense cannot be found by conference with other plainer places of scripture Augustine admits to giue reason to the sense we bring but saieth he This custome is dangerous it is more safe to vvalke by the diuine scriptures De doctr Christ lib. 3. cap. 27. vvhich standing in translate vvords when vve vvill search either let such sense be made of it as hath no coÌ„trouersie or of it haue let it be determined by the same Scripture vvheresoeuer the witnesses thereof can be found and applied Neither is this to make euery priuate vnlearned artificer iudge ouer the Scriptures but to set all both learned and vnlearned to schoole to the Scriptures from whence as Augustine saith before alleaged vve haue learned to knovv Christ and to knovv the church of Christ. But if we follow Popish guides we must learne to knowe the scriptures for the sense of the scripture is the scripture yea and Christ himselfe by the tradition of the Church and receiue such a sense of scriptures and such a Christ as Fathers and Councels by their authority shall deliuer vnto vs not hauing left vnto vs any power to trie the spirits by the Scripture the infallible touchstone of all spirits by which both Christ and his Apostles were content to Iohn 5. 39. Galat. â— 8. be tryed If this be not a priuate interpretation there can be none found in the world PAPIST To assure vs this is Canonical scripture and which is not there is no other way but to cleane vnto the authoritie of Gods Church Therefore S. Austen saieth I would not beleeue the Gospell if the authoritie of Gods church did not mone me And the Protestants Contr. epist. fund cap. 4. caÌ„not in this question euer giue coÌ„tent either to themselues or other if they take any other course For where do they finde in the whole Bible that S. Iames his Epistle for example is Canonical scripture is it not well knowen that Luther did reiect it But faine would I know how they can according to their principle which is to beleeue nothing but scripture proue this point against Luther out of the scripture most certaine it is they cannot and that which we say of S. Iames his Epistle may be said of any other part of the Bible if one be disposed to deny it Seeing then that there is equall danger of saluation in expounding the scriptures conâ—rarie to the true senseintended by the holy Ghost as there is in refusing that for Scripture which vvas indâ—ed by the holy Ghost vvhat man of reason can denie but that if the church doth tell vvhich is the scripture and vvhich is not that the same Church is likevvise to tell vs vvhich is the true sense of the scripture which is not We therefore that interprete them as the church teach vs haue the
Originals and binde to a corrupt translation as Authonâ—â—cal You suffer not the Scriptures to be vulgarly translated and read Thus you haue the Scriptures as in a prison but as you should haue them to make them common to all men by reading preaching and teaching you haue them not The interpretation of Scriptures you haue such as may stand with your Popish practise which is the priuie rule of your interpretation and such as it pleaseth the Pope to prescribe you But true interpretation of Scripture according to the plainer principles thereof and the rule of faith which Augustine so much commendeth you neither haue nor wil hade nor suffer others to haue if you may let it and so your interpretation is priuate as either being the Popes or proceeding from your owne faction addicted to your receiued practise but ours is the interpretation of the Spirit of God testified by himselfe in the Scriptures inspiried by him as by the Scriptures and the rule of faith we prooue and therefore blasphemously by you called priuate Seeing therefore the visibility of your Church is in those things which may be seen partly among the heathen partly in a false Church which the longer it continueth the worse You haue but some shew of the Fathers on your side when indeede they are against you and so haue not the antiquity of truth but of error you neither haue the Scriptures as you should haue them for your selues and others nor their true sense and interpretation but onely of your owne making your Popish faith though it be olde in it selfe yet in respect of the daies of our Fathers our Sauiour Christ the Apostles and Prophets the daies thereof haue been but few and euill and therefore it is not the olde Catholike Apostolike faith whatsoeuer this false and forcelesse Reasoner hath sayed PAPIST A short Addition Beleeue assuredly and holde for certaine that no Heretike and Schismatike that vniteth not himselfe to the Catholike Church againe how great almes so-euer hee giue yea or shed his bloud for Christes name can possibly be saued For manie heretikes by the cloake of Christes cause deceiuing the simple suffer much but where no true faith is there is no iustice because the iust liueth by faith so it is also of Schismatikes because where charitie is not no iustice can be there which of they had they would neuer plucke in peeces the bodie of Christ which is the Church A Sentence of S. Austin worthie to be noted of such as thinke that men which liue vertuouslie may goe to heauen though they beleeue not the Catholike faith nor be members of his true Church For as most certaine it is that none which beleeue not all the articles of the Catholike faith can be saued though to the eies of the world be liue or die neuer so well for without faith it is as Paul saith vnpossible to please God And S. Athanasius telleth vs that whosoeuer will be saued before all things it is necessarie that he holde the Catholike faith which faith without euerie one shall keepe whole and inviolate without doubt he shall perish for euer so no lesse certaine it is that although we beleeue neuer so well yet if we liue not according to that faith and so abstaine from communicating with heretiques in their seruice and Sacraments we cannot be saued For hee that shall denie Christ before men Christ also will denie him before his Father in heauen as himselfe saith And if we may without sinne temporize and frame our conscience according to the law when shall we take vp our Crosse and follow Crist as himselfe willeth vs And vvhat meant the blessed Apostles and so manie 1000. of Martyrs to shed their bloud for Christ of an inward and secret faith might haue brought them to heauen and they might outwardlie haue yeelded to Princes lawes and keepe their conscience to themselues This doctrine Christes seruants know not it is deuised only for the colde comfort of such as loue this vvorld too much and feare persecution But let such thinke of this saying of our Sauiour Feare ye not them that kill the body and are not able to kill the soule but rather feare him that can destroy both body soule into hel and let them imitate noble Eleazarus Mart. 2. 28. who rather made choise of cruell death then to dissemble in the cause of religion and do that with the scandal of others which of it selfe was no sinne at all PROTESTANT Augustines Sentence De fide and Pet. Diac. cap. 39. is oneâ—â— thus much Formissimè tene nullatenus dubites quemlibet hareticum siue schismaticum in nomine patris filij spiritus sancti baptizatum si ecclesiae Catholicae non fuerit aggregatus quantascunque eleemosinas fecerit si pro Christi nomine sanguinem fuderit nullatenus posse saluari that is Firmly beleeue by no meanes doubt that euery heretike or schismatike being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost how great almes soeuer he do yea though hee shed his bloud for Christs name yet if he be not gathered to the Catholike Church by no meanes can be saued This sentence though not word for word yet in effect you rehearse but you ad therunto more words whereof Augustine in that place hath neuer a one yet in the end conclude a sentence of S Austen as if all that goeth before were his sentence in that chapter It seemeth therefore that you read not Augustines words your selfe but borrowed them some where without discerning where Augustines words ended The rest is a truth but not true that Augustine there hath such a sentence what would you now inferre out of this sentence of Augustine First that men though they liue neuer so vertuously yet if they beleeue not the Catholike faith nor bee members of his true Church cannot be saued Secondly that if men beleeue neuer so well yet if they liue not according to the faith and so absteine from communicating with heretiks in their seruice and sacraments they cannot be saued and so proceede on to condemne those that outwardly haue yeelded to Princes Lawes and keepe their consciences to themselues All which may with no gaine to you be yeelded it the chiefe termes be well vnderstood to witte Catholike Church Catholike Faith and Heretikes or Schismatikes For if the Popish Church be not the Catholike Church nor the Popish Faith the Catholike Faith nor they Heretikes or Schismatikes that stand in opposition to Poperie or do depart from Popish communion then what gaine you by this whole addition But it is a world to see into what a maze you haue ledde the poore sheep of your flocke that no sooner they heare Catholike Church or Catholike Faith but by and by they thinke of Popish Church and Popish Faith betweene which there is no lesse difference then betweene light and darknes And againe when they heare of Herâ—tikes they presently
thinke of Protestants whereas indeed if they had eyes to discerne of heresie or an Heretike they would rather applie it to Papistes But I heartily wish all blinded Papistes aduisedly to consider of the first conclusion which you draw out of Augustines words That although men liue and die neuer so vertuously yet except they beleeue the Catholike faith and be members of the true church they cannot be saued The name of good workes is amiable to all well minded men and by pretense of great zeale for good workes your faction hath crept into the mindes of many that in great ignorance and simplicity had a good meaning Howbeit by good workes you chiefly meane those workes that bring some gaine vnto your selues otherwise tollerating and dispensing with the breach of Gods commandements in any point whereby your Popish kingdome takes no harme or is not hindred Such therefore as haue blindly followed you out of an oppinion that you are the onely patrone of good workes I wish to observe that by your owne confession though a man liue or die neuer so well yet he cannot be saued except he hold the Catholike Faith be a member of the true church because without faith he cannot please God Doth it not then behoue all men to aduise with themselues well how they may know the Catholike Faith the true Church There were that sayed they were Iewes were the Synagogue of Sathan The Donatists claimed vnto themselues Apoc. 39. the title of Catholike Church and Catholike Faith which other Heretikes both haue done may do as well as they Let them not therefore thinke or beleeue that the Popish Church and faith is Catholike because Papists say so but let them examine your Church and Faith whether it be Catholike or no which onely by the Scriptures they shall be able infallibly to discerne In the Scriptures saith Augustine to the Donatistes we haue learned Christ and in the Scriptures Epist 166. we haue learned the Church These Scriptures we haue coÌ„mon to vs both why do wee not in them reteine in common both Christ and the Church in the end of the same Epistle Behold the scriptures are common to vs both Behold where we haue knowen Christ Behold where we haue knowen the Church This learned and godly Father when both sides challenge to themselues that they are the Catholike Church that they haue the faith of Christ calles them to the trial of scriptures as the surest meanes to know both Christ and the Church by By this rule if they shall be tried that make a spoyle of many soules vnder the colour of Catholike Church and Catholike Faith they shall be found to be deceiuers and no better then the Synagogue of Sathan Wherefore let the ignorant and seduced Papistes vnto their zeale of good workes labour to ioyne a right iudgement in matters of faith from point to point in all those Articles which Athanasius affirmeth to be so necessarie that except a man beleeue them whole and inuiolate he shall perish for euer The blinde ordinary faith of Papists to beleeue as the Popish Church beleeueth is not that Catholike faith which Athanasius saith Euerie one must beleeue that will be saued Since then by your owne confession where no true faith is there is no iustice it behoueth all men to be well assured of the faith they hold not resting their faith in the wisedome of men but in the power of God that is in the Gospell which is the power of God to saluation to euery one that beleeueth by which only faith the iust man shal liue and not by such Rom. 1. 16 a faith as is built vpon the Popes power to make what faith he list The Second thing you woulde inferre of Augustines words is that although we beleeue neuer so well yet if we liue not according to faith and so absteine from communicating with Heretikes in their seruice and sacraments we cannot be saued If the termes be rightly vnderstood the doctrine is true wholesome for men that beleeue must liue according to faith all true beleeuers must absteine from communicating with Heretikes but vnderstanding Faith for Popish faith and Heretikes for those that are opposite to Poperie that is indeede true beleeuers vnder these cloudy and mistie words you secretly infuse into the minds of those that are seduced by you the poyson of disloialtie treason rebellion which is now the principall Article of your Popish faith for the Popish faith is that it is of necessity of saluation that euery soule be subiect to the Pope that the Pope hath power to accurse and dâ—pose Princes and absolue their subiects from all their allegeance that no man ought to obey a prince excommunicate by the Pope or deposed by him These are the chiefe articles of your popish Creede Whosoeuer beleeueth and obeieth these shall vndoubtedly be saued how be it in the Popes heauen that is in Gehenna in heâ— fire whither the Pope draâ—eth innumerable soules Dist 40. si Papa with him to be tormented with euerlasting fire Your meaning then is to breede a resolution in the hearts of all those whom you cal Catholikes in this land that although they be neuer so deuout Papists yet if they walke not according to their Popish faith that is if they bee not true to the Popes triple crowne if they practise not by al meanes to reduce his tyraÌ„nie into this kingdom if they be not at all times traytors in heart purpose as soone as opportunity serueth traytors in action they cannot be saued This is the wholesome doctrine of Poperie as appeareth both by the Bull of Pâ—us S. against Q. Elizabeth of blessed and princely memorie and by Nicholas Sanders who thus writeth Huc igttur iam De visib mouarc lib. 2. cap. 4. tandemres deducta est c. Now then the matter is brought to this point that an Hereticall Kinge must bee remooued from the kingdome which hee holdeth ouer Christians And because the crime for which hee is to be remooued is committed against faith doubtlesse it belongeth chiefly to the Bishops both to pronounce the Kinge himselfe an Heretike or otherwise an Apostata and also to declare that his subiects are from thence foorth free of yeelding obedience vnto him that they ought to do their best that another may withall speed be supplied in his roomth Who seeth not that vtterly it abhorreth from the saluation of mens soules to suffer him to raigne ouer the faithfull who is himselfe an infidell O miserable Popish faith which driueth all subiects of protestant that is christian Princes either to be rebells and traytors as a matter appertaining to the saluation of their soules or else vtterly to despaire of saluation for that you adde of communicating with those whom you call Heretikes it is some part indeed of your Popish faith that your adherents ought to absteine from our seruice and sacraments and most willingly you