things but in scoffing manner if you doe seriously hold them prooue them seriously and not with ridiculous authorities The 11. reason Triall of truth That it appertaineth to the Church to trie and to discerne Spirits as also to determine and to decide doubts we confesse M. D. Trie all things saith Paul 1 Thess 5. 1. Ioh. 4. and S. Iohn commandeth vs to prooue the Spirits But the question is whether you are the Church or no Quid ergo facturi sumus what shall we doe I answer with Augustine propounding this question cap. 2. de vnitat that we must seeke the Church of Christ in his word qui veritas est optimè novit corpus suum who is truth best knoweth his bodie Where you say that we cannot otherwise but receiue the scriptures vpon the catholike Romane churches credit and also three Creedes and some articles of beleefe as the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne and many tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments I will answer these points seuerally And first I desire to know what reason you haue to make a particular church as the Romane church Catholike The Romane church if it were a true church is but a part of the catholike church It is Catholike saith Augustine because it is per totum through the whole world de vnit cap. 5. Cyril in his 18. chap. among many reasons of the name giueth this Quia per vniversum sit orbem terrarum diffusa because it is diffused thorough the whole world Is it all one to say I beleeue the Catholike Church and to say I beleeue the Romane church To leaue this matter and to come to your speech that it is not possible to know the Bible which is vsed amongst Christians to be the true word of God indeede but vpon the Romane churches credit First such idle questions the olde heretikes the Manichees demanded of S. Augustine to whome S. Augustine answered Lib. 32. cap 21. cont Faust Man Si quaeratis à nobis vnde nos sciamus Apostolorum esse istas literas breuiter vobis respondemus inde nos scire vnde vos scitis illas literas esse Manichaei If you demand of vs how we know that these be the Apostles writings we shape you this short answer as you know that your writings are of the heretike Manichee Secondly I would know how you can prooue any church to be the church but by the Scriptures if you cannot prooue the church but by the Scriptures then the Authoritie of the church dependeth vpon them and not è contra Thirdly we receiue not the Scriptures vpon the Romane churches credit for then we should haue receiued also the bookes which are Apocrypha as well as the true Canon of the bible for the Romane church doth receiue them Fourthly we receiue the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselues Many men by the heauenly maiestie of the Scriptures are mooued to receiue them before they know which is the true church Gonarus con Cost Iustin Martyr saith that Christs words haue in thâ—â— feare to perswade in dialogo cum Try Mantuan de pat l. 3. c. 2. saith thus Firmiter scripturas ideo credimus quòd diuinam inspirationem intra accipimus we steadfastly beleeue the scriptures because we haue receiued an inward inspiration from God He that will despise the Scriptures will despise the Church He that will not beleeue there is a God because the Scriptures teach it will not beleeue it because the Church teacheth the same The Scriptures were credited before the Romane church was ens or in rerum natura The Apostles beleeued the Gospel of our Sauiour Christ before he wrought any miracle because it was testified by the scriptures Ioh. 1.46 Adam and others beleeued without the church Our Sauiour Christ preached Repent and beleeue the Gospel which some did without the Church Eusebius in his third booke and 21. chap. writeth that the Gospels of Thomas and others were reiected because that phraseos character à consuetudine Apostolica variat ipsa sententia propositum eorum quae in illis adferuntur plurimum à veritate rectae doctrinae discrepant the style doth varie from the Apostolicall manner and the matter and the intent of those things which are alleadged in them doe much differ from the truth of right doctrine The consent of Scriptures the miracles and prophesies with many other arguments draw a man to credit the same yea the deadly hatred which the world beareth vnto them perswadeth not a little Sacris Scripturis saith Bellarmine nihil est notius Lib. 1. cap. 2. de vâ—â— Dâ—i nihil certius there is nothing more knowne and certaine then the Scriptures Read Bellarmine your selfe M. Doctor that he may satisfie you in this point But if we beleeue the Scriptures by the Church doth not the church teach vs to beleeue by the scriptures how can the church rightly perswade vs to beleeue but by preaching and producing of scriptures Ergo the scriptures are of much more force then the bare name of a church For propter quod vnumquodque tale est illud magis tale if the church induceth vs to beleeue then the scriptures doe much more because the church doth it by the scriptures The church is an excellent meanes ordained of God to bring men to beleefe neither doe we contemne the authoritie thereof The Samaritans beleeued by the testimonie of a woman Ioâ— 4. but afterward they beleeued because of Christ himselfe so the Church may bring one to beleeue but afterward to beleeue for the word it selfe The testimonie of Augustine is fraudulently alleadged by you his word is commoveret for he saith As there were many things which held him in the faith so if he were an infidel he would not beleeue the Gospel vnlesse the authoritie of the church with other things did mooue him ergo not onely the church and he speaketh if he were an infidell as the wordes going before doe plainly manifest Si invenies aliquem if thou shouldest finde any which yet doth not beleeue the Gospel what wouldest thou doe saying to thee I doe not beleeue then immediatly followeth your sentence I would not beleeue vnlesse c. Nicholaus Clenangis is worthie to be heard concerning this testimonie of Augustine Disp super Gâ—â— con Mirum sane prima specie satis videtur at the first fight it is maruell that he should preferre the authoritie of the church being a stranger in the earth before the authoritie of the Gospel seeing the Church may be deceiued in many things and the Gospel cannot Afterward he giueth the reason of Augustines speach because the Manichees did reiect Scriptures at their pleasures To stand yet somewhat longer in this testimonie Con. lib. 5 c. 1â— Augustine was mooued to beleeue by Ambrose is Ambrose his authoritie therefore equall to the scriptures God forbid whosoeuer listeth to read the 5. chap of the 6.
booke of his Confessions shall finde that he did beleeue the Scriptures for themselues In his 14. chap. of the booke cited by the Doctor he writeth thus Quid putas faciendum nisi vt eos relinquamus qui nos invitant certa cognoscere postea imperant vt incerta credamus eos sequamur qui nos invitant prius credere quod nondum valemus intueri vt ipsa side valentiore facti quod credimus intelligere mereamur non iam hominibus sed ipso Deo intrinsecus mentem nostram firmante atque illuminante what haue we to doe but to forsake them that inuite vs to know certaine things and afterwards command vs to beleeue vncertaine things and to follow thē which inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to behold that beeing made stronger through faith we may attaine to vnderstand that we beleeue now not men but God himselfe confirming and lightning our minde inwardly The spirit of God therefore must cause vs to beleeue otherwise we shall wauer and stagger To conclude this point many borne in heresie and schisme haue bin mooued by heretikes to beleeue the Scriptures is heresie therfore equal to the scriptures nothing lesse The three Creedes we receiue because the doctrine is contained in the scriptures but you doe not receiue Athanasius his Creede for he maketh but two places vitam aeternam ignem aeternum Omnes homines resurgent cum corporibus suis reddituri sunt de factis preprijs rationem qui benè egerunt ibunt in vitam aeternam qui verò malè in ignem aeternum All men shall rise with their owne bodies and shall giue an account of their deedes and they which haue done well shall goe into life euerlasting they which haue done euill into euerlasting fire You teach that Infants vnbaptized shall be in a brimme of hell and not in the fire of hell Thus if you had bin wise M. Doctor you would haue bin silent concerning these Creeds If I should shew your contrarieties to the Apostles creed I should be ouerlong That the holy Ghost doth proceede from the Father and the Sonne Lib. 2. de Christ cap. 22. Bellarmine prooueth plentifully out of the Scriptures What an ignorant Doctor is this that cannot see this mysterie prooued in holy Scripture Touching the tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments what if they be not in Scriptures the heauenly doctrine signified by the words is contained in scriptures If these wordes were necessarie to saluation then men were damned before they were inuented which I thinke the Doctor will not grant for many beleeued the things although the names were not extant Augustine calleth the bookes of Tobie and other Canonical because they were read to edification for I hope you will not oppose his authoritie to so many Fathers as I haue before produced In the place by you cited he will haue those books which are receiued of all Churches preferred before those which some Churches receiue not hence it is manifest that he maketh not all of equall authoritie Lib. 2 con gaud cap. 23. Elswhere he will haue the bookes of Machabees read so it be non inutiliter sobriè not vnprofitably and soberly Why doth he giue this caution to these bookes if they were of like authoritie And in his booke de praed Sanct. c. 14. he confesseth when he did produce a testimonie out of the booke of Wisdome that the brethren did reiect it there he contendeth not much for it If it had bin Canonicall he should not haue so remissely pleaded for it Thus it appeareth why he calleth these books canonical Where you say that no heretike can charge the Church with adding or diminishing one iot from the Scriptures we must admire Gods prouidence and his loue towards his church he preserueth the Scriptures though men would take thē out of the world But if you meane that the church of Rome hath not altered the holy Scriptures you must know that the Papists hold the Hebrew and the Greeke text to be corrupt and haue established a Latin translation differing farre from the Hebrew and Greeke and is not this to alter the scriptures If I should shew the corruptions of that trāslation I should be very tedious I will name one in the 1. of the Hebr. it is said Christ hath purged our sinnes by himselfe these words by himselfe are cleane stricken out of their Rhemists translation what an intollerable corruption is this But I will conclude the matter in a syllogisme They which establish a corrupt translation alter the scriptures or at least a iot of the same But the Papist establish a corrupt translation Ergo. And indeede I cannot sufficiently wonder at them who establish their Latine translation eo nomine because it is Hieroms and yet will not allow his translations of the Psalmes what dealing with the Scriptures is this he hath corrected that translation of the Psalmes which they vse and yet they haue defied it You further demand why we should trust the Church of Rome rather in this then in other things I answer first that as I haue prooued we trust not the Church of Rome but the scriptures themselues secondly it is a ridiculous consequent We beleeue the church of Rome in this point ergo we must doe so in all other To make your follie manifest vnto you selfe M. D. you beleeue the church of England in some points will you doe so in all I would it were so That we haue had nothing to doe with the Bible for a thousand yeares and that we haue robbed the Church of many bookes are detestable vntruths But I pray you Syr were not the scriptures preserued in the Greeke church as well as in the Romish church did not the Iewes keepe the scriptures and yet to vse your phrase our Sauiour wrested thē out of their hands not as iust but as vniust possessours of them The Pharisies might haue vsed the same speech to our Sauiour Christ that the Doctor doth to vs. He hath three other questions in this chapter The first is how we relying onely vpon scripture can shew certainly which bookes be scripture and which not This question I haue at large answered in this chapter and therefore I will not repeat my answer Secondly he would know of the vnlearned Protestant how he knoweth the translations to be true I answer that it is not necessarie to know euery thing to be truly translated The spirit of God speaking in the scriptures certifieth the conscience of the vnlearned that the scriptures in the English tongue are the scriptures The third question it why we beleeue our owne iudgements rather the Luthers or Calvins I answer we beleeue their iudgements that bring best proofes out of Scriptures But M. Doctor because you haue posed vs with so many questions now I will pose you with one likewise Why doe you receiue your latin translation rather vpon this Popes authoritie
and other cleargie orders they haue baptisme the Eucharist and all other things He proceedeth affirming that the church was in times past knowne by miracles but now they are either ended or els in greater number with false Christians yea he auerreth that a man might know by the liues of men which was the true Church but now Christians were worse then either hereticks or Ethnicks If this worke were written by an Arrian as some say yet there is no cause to condemne this excellent sentence prooued by so weightie reasons The eight reason Scriptures We haue finished by Gods assistance seuen Reasons some of which as the Doctour seemeth to graunt are nothing worth without Scripture and therefore he saith that they teach not any doctrine but such as is deriued out of the holy Bible If you would abide by this confession you would not hold so many vnwritten opinions as you doe For adoration of Images for the halfe communion for the Popes not erring for the lent fast with other points of Poperie what scripture is there It is one of your principles Cens Colon. that traditiones ecclesiae non scriptae credendae ac seruandae sunt vnwritten traditions are to be beleeued and kept Hence I conclude after this manner They which hold opinions by vnwritten traditions deriue not all their opinions out of the scriptures But the Papists hold some opinions by vnwritten traditions Ergo. But good M. Doctour are we driuen to denie certaine parts of Gods holy Bible for the maintaining of our opinions and are the Manichees our predecessours take heede least by auouching vntruths you doe vastare conscientiam make shipwracke of conscience If Luther reiected the epist of S. Iames what is that to vs Caietane will haue it to be minoris authoritatis quam caeteras Bell. lib. 1. cap. 17. 2. booke 23. of lesse authoritie then the other epistles Eusebius saith sciendum est eam esse adulterinam we must know that it is a bastard epistle Euseb 3.22 cap. Now I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which refuse bookes of Scripture frame that bible to their opinions But the Protestants refuse bookes of Scripture Ergo. I denie the assumption which is set downe without any proofe and for the disproofe of the same I will not content my selfe with a few fathers but will produce a cloud of witnesses that the Papists may see their proud bragge of fathers Origen at Eusebius speaketh thus Euseb hist 6. booke 24. Hand ignorandum fieret esse veteris testamenti libros sicut Hebraei tradunt viginti duos qui etiam numerus apudeos est literarum We must vnderstand that there are 22. bookes of the old Testament as the Hebrewes doe teach which also is the number of letters Hence I gather that if the Canonicall bookes answer the hebrew letters then there are but 22. otherwise there should be more then the letters are Melito numbreth the same bookes which we doe excepting the booke of Wisdome as witnesseth Eusebius 4. book 25. Cyril of Ierusalem in his 4. catechisme exhorteth the Catechumenes to read 22. bookes but that he reckneth Baruck with Ieremie he reckneth the same which we doe and directly warneth vs vt cum Apocryphis nihil habeamus negotij that we haue nothing to doe with Apocryphal bookes for saith he multò prudentiores te religiosiores fuerint Apostoli primi Episcopi veritatis duces qui nobis eas tradiderunt the Apostles and first Bishops were wiser and more religious then thy selfe they deliuered these scriptures to vs. Leontius in his 2. action of sects agreeth with these authors saying that veteris scripturae libri sunt viginti duo there are 22. bookes of the old testament Innilius reiecteth the Machabees from diuine scripture quoniam apud Hebraeos super hac differentia recipiebantur libri Canonici sicut Hieronymus alijque testantur because with the Iewes the canonicall bookes were receiued with this difference as Ierome and other writers witnesse He reiecteth Iob and some other bookes which are Canonicall by his owne reason namely because they were of that authoritie with the Iewes Amphilochius differeth not from the aboue named writer after that he hath set downe the same number which we doe excepting the booke of Wisdome which yet it may be but put in for verse because he reckneth but three of Salomon after I say he concludeth thus hic verissimus divinitus datarum est scripturarum Canon this is the most true Canon of the diuine scriptures Ruffinus in his exposition vpon the Creede saith that he will describe the Canonicall bookes of the olde testament which he doth after our order in England and acknowledgeth that non Canonicos libros legi voluerunt in ecclesiis sed non proferri ad authoritatem ex his fidei confirmandaÌ„ they wil haue the books that are not Canonicall to be read in Churches but not to be aleadged to confirme a matter of faith I will not produce the testimonies of Hierome Epiphanius Nazianzen Athanasius and others because they are obvious to euery one neither will I conuince the Doctour by his owne writers as Caietan Hugo and Arias Montanus Iosephus is worthie to be heard who plainly teacheth that duo solum viginti libri fide digni esse creduntur Euseb 3. lib. hist â—0 onely 22. bookes are to be credited By this cloud of witnesses I hope Christian Reader thou maist see the vanitie of Papists who doe nothing but crepare patres patres crie the fathers they are on their side I returne the Argument They which adde bookes to diuine scriptures draw the holy Bible to their fancies But the Papists adde whole bookes to diuine scriptures Ergo Where he saith that the Catholikes follow the bible I will not stand vpon that famous corruption of the Hebrew psalter by an English Papist to iustifie their vulgar latin text but come to one place out of which they would gather purgatorie Where it is said that a certaine sinne shall not be forgiuen neither in this world Math. 11. nor in the world to come we expound it by Marke who saith it shall neuer be forgiuen the Papist saith Matthew must not be expouÌ„ded by Marke because he is shorter but is he not plainer How absurd is it to expound these words â—ell lib. 1. de into cap. 4. he hath neuer forgiuenes to this sense whereas to expound the words of Matthew by Marke hath an excellent construction Thus euery man may see who draw the scriptures to their fancies whether Papists or Protestants The 9. reason Councells Whether the Church of God hath euer bin accustomed when any heresie did spring vp therein to gather a Councell of Bishops Prelates and other learned men I will not stand to dispute If your meaning be M. Doctour that nothing is heresie but that which is condemned by a Councell Lib. 4. cont dâ—â—s epist Pelag. in fine I vtterly renounce your vaine conceit Let Augustine
confirme their opinions and to be reade for proofe of them as I haue shewed Yea they fly to traditions which the heretickes before named might also haue iustified if the Canonicall scriptures had not beene sufficient Tenthly the Manichees vsed but one part of the Communion for they would not haue wine so doe the Papists as it is notorious to all men I might mention many other heresies held by Papists but I haue handled them in another worke therefore I will not recite them here Touching the manners of heretickes if crueltie be a badge of heretickes then are Papists rightly mustered amongest heretickes for they haue most barbarously murdered many men as I will shewe God willing in the next reason The 24. reason Peace and tranquilitie It is a heathen Principle that Legem sibi ipsis indicunt innocentiae continentiae virtutumque omnium qui ab altero rationem vitae reposcunt They which require a reason of another mans life make to themselues a law of innocencie continencie of all vertues To accuse men of tumults when they are themselues tumultuous is intollerable Quis tulerit Gracchos de seditione querentes who can beare it that Gracchus should complaine of sedition that Verres should speake against theft and Milo against murther who could thinke that Papists should speake against warres cruelties and outragious tragedies when they haue spilt exceeding much innocent blood The Spanish inquisitions and French Massacres haue murdered men women and children by thousands Phocas murdered Mauritius the Emperour by whose meanes Boniface the Pope obtained that roome and should be called the head of all Churches as Gotfridus testifieth Here Christian Reader thou maiest see that the Pope cam vp by murder Pope Vrban the fixt bound fiue Cardinalls in a sacke and drowned them in the sea He tooke the kingdome of Sicile from the Queene and gaue it to others Symachus and Laurentius did striue for the Popedome which contention lasted yeares cum effusione sanguinis multorum tam clericorum quà m laicorum With the shedding of many mens blood both of the cleargie laietie Alexander 2. Codulus contended for the Popedome which contention vsque ad homicidia prorupit brake forth into murther as witnesseth Sigebert The histories are full of such examples yet saith the Doctor the Catholike Romane religion began with meekenesse mildenesse and with all quiet and peaceable meanes Whereas the Protestants both haue begun and hold on their course with seditious tumults That you may knowe your peaceable proceedings heare what Wicellensis writeth concerning Hildebrande Miscuit se plurimorum mortibus Christianorum succendent vbique incendia bellorum per totum pene Romanum imperium He thrust himselfe into the deaths of many Christians kindling warres almost throughout the whole Romane Empire Iohn Hus was burned although he had safe conduct promised him Certain men called cruciatores whē they should haue gone against the Turke hauing the Popes indulgences defloured women and murthered men to the number of three score and ten thousand Yea saith Landgius Scribi non potest quanta crudelitate vsi sunt It can not be vttered what crueltie they vsed Concerning the troubles in Germanie my purpose is not to speake of them neither will I meddle with the warres in Fraunce or Scotland Diuers countres haue diuers gouernments the tumults of any subiects against their soueraignes as we doe not allow so we may not condemne the poore afflicted Christians our neighbours before we heare what they can say for themselues I am a scholler not a souldier a diuine not a lawier The circumstances of forraine warres fewe knowe besides themselues as also we know not the lawes of those lands we will not therefore enter those acts which haue so many parts precedents causes concurrents From forraine common warres you come to England and are very busie with king Henrie the 8. king Edward the 6. princes of famous memorie It were best for you M. Doctor to leaue kingdoms and studie diuinitie you are so drownd in pollicie that you forget diuinity yet you can without teares recount summarily the troubles of this land So you may doe in regard of Queene Maries times when not onely Cranmer Archbishop of Canterbury Payne◠Bishop of Winchester Barloe of Bath Tailor of Lincolne with diuers other both Archdeacons and Deacons were put from their liuings and wonderfull store of blood shed these are the times that you should lament Yet it is to be lamented that any should be so obstinate on popery as to die in the same As for Queene Elizabeths gratious gouernment you are not ashamed also to controll it Yet Papists themselues teach that it was both milde and mercifull and had not her Maiestie cause to deale with Papists as shee did when the Pope excommunicated her and stirred vp the Northen rebels her owne subiects to rebell against her Doctor Saunders did thrust himselfe into the Irish warres against her Maiestie If the Pope had so dealt with the king of Spaine as he hath dealt with our late most renowmed Queene would the king of Spaine haue taken it When I weighed and considered these things with my selfe I could not but dislike the Romish religion accompanied with tumults insurrections ruines desolations and with all manner of tragicall miseries and cleaue vnto this religion in England which euer teacheth peace as our writings shewe But it may be M. Doctor your owne men will beare some credit with you Cardinall Poole in his imagined oration to Charles the Emperour calling backe his Maiestie from the Turke to leaue all other affaires and to bend his banners against England and encouraging the subiects of this realme boldly to rebell against their Prince speaketh after this manner English men are a people that oftentimes haue deposed their kings for lighter causes This book as reuered Iuell testifieth was abroad and might be seene wherefore if peace wil preuaile with you call to minde that you haue bin the firebrands fo sedition the trueth is you would force to religion but you would not be forced The 25. reason All kinds of witnesses Euery man knoweth or may knowe M. Doctor that your tonge ouerreacheth when you say we can bring nothing to witnes our religiō but only the scriptures We haue produced the fathers of the primitiue Church to confirme the same but if we haue the scriptures on our side it is sufficient though all men were against vs that Gods word is not contrarie it is most true but that your practises are consonant to the same it is most false as likewise that we will admitte noe expositors of holy scriptures but the scriptures themselues that the scriptures expound themselues in matters necessary to saluation I thinke you will not denie your selfe Master Doctor neither will you alwaies take the fathers expositions Caietan confesseth that the sense of the scriptures is not tied to the Fathers exposition as I can shew but you demaund why Luther confesseth that he could not denie the reall
vnderstood comparatiuely the Gospel was before his time but it was not in tanta luce in such brightnes as it hath beene since and I trust it shall more and more increase ingratijs Papistarum whether the Papists will or no. They may presse the truth but they shall neuer oppresse it they may vaunt of veritie but they must winne the cause by force of arguments The second reason the name of Catholikes A man may maruell that any who would perswade to religion should make so simple an argument as this They which are called Catholikes are the true Church But the Papists are called Catholikes Ergo they are the true Church The proposition is false Salvianus in the beginning of his 4. booke of prouidence speaketh excellently of this point Nomen sine officio nihil est nam sicut ait quidam in scriptis suis quid est principatus sine meritorum sublimitate nisi honoris titulus sine nomine A name without the dutie is nothing for as one faith in his writings what is principalitie without sublimitie of good works but a bare title of honour For the further handling of this matter we will consider what Catholike is Vincentius Lyrinensis thus describeth this word Catholike Quod ab omnibus creditum est Catholicum est that which is beleeued of all men is Catholike Is Poperie then Catholike which is not beleeued of all men I will name some opinions and prooue them not to be credited of all and I will beginne with the worshipping of Images which I will prooue not to be Catholike Minutius Foelix in his Octauius speaketh thus Cruces nec colimus nec optamus we neither worship nor wish for Crosses Againe in the same treatise it is demanded of Christians Cur nullas aras habent templa nulla nulla nota simulachra why they haue no altars no temples no images The Councell of Eliberis in Spaine haue in plaine words banished them out of Churches Placuit picturas in Ecclesiis esse non debere ne quod colitur aut adoratur in parietibus depingatur We haue decreed that pictures ought not to be in the Churches least that which is worshipped or adored be painted on walls Sigebert in the yeare of our Lord 755. writeth that Constantinus Jmperator Constantinopoli synodum trecentorum triginta Episcoporum congregat in qua edicto promulgato de Imaginibus Dei sanctorum eius deponendis Ecclesiam Dei nimis scandalizat Constantine the Emperour gathered a Councell at Constantinople of 330. Bishops in which publishing an edict against the Images of God and the Saints he doth too much scandalize the Church Thus it appeareth that worshipping of Images is not Catholike Secondly the Papists teach that the Church is built vpon vpon Peters person Is this Catholike doctrine Ionas in his second booke of Images speaketh thus of this point Multi penè omnes Petram super quam aedificatur Ecclesia fidem intelligunt beati Petri quae communis est totius sanctae Ecclesiae videlicet eam quae paulò ante promissionem hanc praecesserat id est tu es Christus filius Dei vivi Many and almost all vnderstand by the Rocke on which the Church is built the faith of blessed Peter which is common to all the holy Church namely that which a little before was precedent to this promise that is to say Thou art Christ the sonne of the liuing God Thirdly the Papists teach that the virgin Marie was no sinner is this catholike doctrine Read Aquinas in his third part the 27. quaest the 4. art and his answer to the third argument where reiecting Chrysostomes authoritie he saith that excessit in illis verbis his words are too broad yet many yeares after Chrysostome was this doctrine held in 22. Math. Theophilact writeth that Marie was ambitiosula tanto sibi filio subdito somewhat ambitious hauing such a sonne vnder her Fourthly the Papists teach that Ministers may not haue wiues is this catholike many hundred yeares after Christ Priests were married In the yeare of our Lord 1074. Hildebrand as Lambertus Schafuaburgensis reporteth decreed that Habentes aut dimittant aut deponantur they which had wiues must either dismisse them or be deposed therefore saith the forenamed writer Aduersus hoc decretum infremunt tota factio Clericorum the whole companie of the Cleargie stormed against this decree The same is also reported by Sigebert saying that Gregorie vxorates Sacerdotes à divino officio removit novo exemplo remooued from diuine seruice the married Priests by a new example What should I speake of prayer in a strange tongue of concealing the Scriptures from the people of summoning of Councells by the Pope These with many other opinions might I shew to be against diuinitie taught in the ancient Church Pacianus thus describeth Catholike that it is Obedientia omnium mandatorum scilicet Dei an obedience vnto all Gods commandements Now let vs see whether you teach obedience vnto Gods commandements or no to let passe Idolatrie and other sinnes M. Perk. ex Molano See more of this point in the Reason of doctrine I come to swearing The Papists teach that they may sweare that they haue not beene at Masse when they haue beene there This is nothing but to prophane an oath as Aquinas testifieth in his 2. 2. 89. quaest art 7. and answer to the 4. argument saying Quacunque arte verborum quis iuret Deus tamen qui conscientiae testis est ita hoc accipit sicut ille cui iuratur intelligit with what cunning soeuer a man doth sweare God who is the witnesse of conscience doth take it as he meaneth to whō a man sweareth Let vs now heare the reason why the name Catholike prooueth a Church because they that are so named haue on their side Scriptures Fathers Councells and Martyrs for of miracles we shall speake hereafter This proud bragge I vtterly denie concerning Scriptures I say with Salvianus in his 5. booke of prouidence that Nos tantùm Scripturas plenas habemus qui eas vel in fonte suo bibimus vel certè de purissimo fonte haustas we onely haue the Scriptures fully perfect which either drinke them in their fountaine or translated out of a most pure fountaine Touching Fathers by that which hath bin said afore it appeareth that they are not all on their side What should I speake of the famous Martyrs in Queene Maries daies which died in the religion now taught in England Thus therefore I returne the argument They which are falsly called Catholikes are not the true church But the Papists are falsly called Catholikes Ergo they are not the true church Concerning the name of Protestants we doe not hold our selues content with it although it be not so bad as the name of Papists and touching the names of Calvinists and Zwinglians they are names invented as Athanasians and Omousians were by the old heretikes But whereas he giueth some allowance to the name
Gregorius Dyonisius saith Picus Mirandula discordant circa ordines angelorum Gregorie and Dyonisius disagree about the order of angels If Gregorie dissenteth from him why may not Luther doe so Who so desireth to read more of this Dyonisius may be referred to Erasmus and Valla. That the Protestants raile at the fathers it must be numbred amongst the Doctours vntruths but by Protestants this man meaneth the Puritans forsooth although this odious name of Puritanes agreeth better to Papists August haeres 38. who doe so stand vpon their puritie because they can keepe all Gods commandements Yet know not I any so called that raile at all the fathers But here it is to be noted euen by his owne confession that the Protestant defend the fathers against the Puritanes therefore they raile not at them Thus M. Doctour you hardly know what you write you are so egerly carried against the Protestants somewhat ye would say but yet know not well how to vtter your minde We acknowledge the fathers to haue had excellent wits to haue studied and praied continually yet doe we not deifie them neither doe we account their writings canonicall scripture as Augustine speaketh of Cyprian lib. 2. cont Cres cap. 32. Where you call the Protestants foolish vnstudied vnlearned prophane and arrogant fellowes you bewray your vaine spirit Vascula inania maximè tinniunt the emptiest vessells make the greatest sound Of your learning we shall speake more hereafter in the meane time I would haue you to know that constat plures Papaâ— adeò illiteratos fuisse vt Grammaticam penitus ignorarent Alphon. l. 1. c. 4. it is certenly knowne that sundrie Popes haue bin so vnlearned that they neuer vnderstood their Grammar You say further that Protestants are giuen to lust ambition gluttonie and couetousnes If for Protestants you had named Papists it had bin a true saying For as your owne man Coster confesseth Plarique Catholici feris ac bellumis moribus blasphemiae causam prabent infidelibus many Catholikes or Papists beeing of sauage and beastly manners and behauiour doe cause Infidels to blaspheme But more also of this in another place If the Centuriators and Calvine haue noted some errours in some of the fathers it is no more then Papists haue done The Rhemists renounceth Augustines exposition vpon the 16. of Matthew Bellarmine in his first booke de sancto beat and 6. chap. saith that Iustinus Epiphanius Ireneus and Oecumenius cannot be defended Againe Ambrose Hilarie and Nissen are reiected of him cap. 4. lib. 2. de rel To proceede he holdeth that Adam was not deceiued Lib. 3. de Amiss grat cap. 7. yet communis patrum sententia id videtur habere vt Adam fuerit seductus the fathers common opinion seemeth to be that Adam was seduced Hierome agreeth not with the fathers concerning the buriall of Adam Bell. lib. 3. de amiss grat cap. 12. Theodoret expoundeth some places of scripture as the Pelagians-doe Bellar. lib. 4. de amiss grat cap. 9. The fathers before Pelaguis did not accurately handle the doctrine of predestination Bellar. lib. 2. de grat lib. arb c. 11. Lastly not to be too tedious cap. 14. eiusdem lib. he saith that patres cum ad populum verba facerent ea dicebant quae vtiliora videbantur ad excitandos homines ad bona opera The fathers when they did speake to the people vttered those things which were most profitable to stirre vp the people to good workes For thy further satisfaction Christian Reader I desire thee but to read Bellarmines exposition of the Lords praier and tell me how the fathers doe agree euen in expounding that one praier Their diuersitie also in expounding this article He sitteth on the right hand of God is worthie to be considered Bellar. lib. 3. de Incar cap. 15. M. Doctour Humfrie his spech of that famous and reuerend Bishop Iewell beeing iniurious to himselfe is vttered in respect of his great paines and not to detract from the truth of his challenge if you can confute his booke set vpon it if you cannot neuer hereafter bragge of the fathers For indeede it is no small meanes to confirme the Protestants in their cause that his bookes haue not beene answered in so long a time you crie the fathers the fathers are on your sides and yet haue not satisfied M. Iewel his challenge in many yeares I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which condemne the fathers of errors hold a false religion But the Protestants condemne the fathers of errors Ergo. To this argument let Augustine answer Si divinarum scripturarum earum scilicet quae in Ecclesiae canonicae nominantur perspicua aliquid firmatur authoritate sine vlla dubitatione credendum est â—pist 112. alijs verò testibus vel testimonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi credere vel non credere liceat if any thing be confirmed by euident authoritie of those Scriptures which are called Canonicall in the Church we must beleeue it without any doubting but other witnesses or testimonies by which some thing to be beleeued is perswaded thou maist beleeue or not beleeue I might abound with his testimonies I will adioyne one other Neque quorumlibet disputationes quamvis catholicorum laudatorum hominum velut scripturas habere debemus epist 1â—1 vt nobis non liceat salva honorificentia quae illis debetur hominibus aliquid in corum scriptis improbare aut respondere We ought not to account any mens disputations although catholike and laudable men as the scriptures as if it were not lawfull for vs the honour which is due vnto them reserued to disalow and reiect something in their writings Picus Mirandula in his Apologie prooueth that in dictis sanctorum extra canonem bibliae non est infallibilis veritas in the sayings of Saints without the canon of the bible there is not infallible truth The Papists themselues refuse the fathers Pucichius saith Mihi non placet Augustini ea de re definitio Iâ—â—l 548. I like not S. Augustines determination of that point namely originall sinne Epiphanius is reiected for breaking images by D. Harding Cyprian is condemned by Duraeus because he teacheth that onely Christ is to be heard But that we may see all the fathers to be on your side M. Doctour produce I pray if you can their testimonies to prooue that the Pope cannot erre that he may depose Princes that he must summon Councells and that he is aboue the same or that the virgin Marie was not conceiued in original sinne I haue desired to see these points prooued by all the fathers if you can doe it you shall doe more then your owne men haue done By these new opinions we may gather that Poperie did beginne by degrees and hath encreased to this height These doctrines although they concerne the head of your church are so weakely prooued by the fathers that a man would imagine you doe not hold these
and the merit of his passion beeing content with one of them himselfe giueth the other to me I wish all Papists and Monkes for their saluation sake were of Bernards minde and I thinke this is to recant Monachisme for Monkes looke for saluation by their merits and workes Lib. 2. de grat c. 15. I will set downe that excellent place of Luke with Bellarmines glosse vpon it Feare not little flocke it is your fathers pleasure to giue you a kingdome Verbum complacuit nomen pater vocubula illa pusillus grex indicant gratiam non Justitiam The word it pleaseth the nowne father and these words little floke shewe grace not iustice Thus the kingdome of heauen is an inheritance giuen vs of our Father not deserued by vs. The last lie is some Protestants affirme the Fathers to haue thought otherwise then they wrote this is true of Papists For the Rhemists beeing pressed with Chrysostomes authoritie for the reading of Scriptures by Laymen say that he spake as e pulpit mā and not as a teacher belike pulpit men speake not that which they thinke Let the Reader then iudge whether you say the Fathers spake as they thought or no. For further triall of this I referre the Reader to that which I haue alleadged out of Bellarmine concerning the Fathers in the Reason of Fathers Hierom in his apologie to Paumichius saith that some things are spoken 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 alia 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for exercise sake and other things for opinions sake ergo the fathers spake not all things dogmatically but some things rhetorically Nazianzen also biddeth his chaire farewell The rest of the chapter concerneth Luther whose speeches haue beene somewhat vehement but not knowing the reason which he might haue to vse such I can neither absolue him nor condemne him for them I will now set downe popish lies I begin with the Doctors in the first chapter he saith that in England it is manifest that all were Papists without exception from the first christening thereof vntil this age of King Henrie the eight This as I haue proued is a famous lie witnesse Wickliffe who liued in England and yet was he no papist The second lie is that hereticks haue euer taken their names of some one who began that heresie this is a lie for some heretickes as the Catharists are called of their sect and not of the author The third lie is in the third chapter the Catholikes haue euer kept vnitie and concord in such a peaceable manner as neuer any one in England or Ireland dissented or disagreed in any point of doctrine from him which liued in the vtmost parts of the East This is such a lie as needeth no manifestation of it Yet I will name one point more then I haue before Hart. Some papists in England held that the Pope may depose Princes others denie it The fourth lie is in the same chapter where he saith that all decrees of lawfull Councels and Popes doe agree in all points of doctrine one with another This I haue prooued a lie Fiftly in the 5. chapter he saith that all countreies which euer beleeued in Christ were first cōuerted to his faith by such as were either precisely sent or at the least wise had their authoritie from the Pope who liued in the time in which they were conuerted This I haue prooued a lie Sixtly in the same chapter he saith that Iesuites are executed in England onely in regard of their sacred function which to be a lie their owne bookes can testifie besides the confession of Papists Seauenthly in the fift reason he belieth M. Caluin calling him a Sere backt priest for Sodomie For I will omit the lie of persecution onely in England in the same chapter Eightly in the tenth chapter he saith that Catholike Romane religion is taught by all the auntient Fathers of the first second third fourth fift and sixe hundred yeares Ninthly in the 13. chap. he saith that we meddle litle with restitution of goods but leaue all at large to our followers without restraint of any such crime 10. In the same chapter he saith the Protestant teacheth the landlord to doe what he listeth with his own 11 In the same place he saith that we teach not reward of good and bad life in the world to come which all men can testifie to be a lie although we disclaime the merit of good works yet we teach the merit of sinne 12 In the 14. Reason he saith that we denie the perpetuall virginitie of Marie which is an vntruth In the 15. Reason he hath many lies first that we haue nothing but a number of pelting obiections taken out of Caluins Institutions or out of the Magdebursens or some hereticall pamphlet Secondly he saith that we trouble our selues with nothing but with the controuersies of this time Thirdly that Protestants doe scarce vnderstand the tearmes of learned sciences which others doe fully possesse Fourthly he saith that the Clergie in Queene Maries time was more learned then now it is Fiftly he saith that the most learned Doctor of them all is vtterly ignorant of schoole diuinitie Sixtly he saith that the Protestant neuer medleth with cases of conscience but fraighteth his ship onely with faith and neuer beateth his braine about sinnes In the sixteenth Reason he saith that all the ministers nowe are naught yea he asketh in the same chap. what woman is nowe married without touch of her honestie I will gather no moe lies out of this Doctor I will set downe some out of other Papists The Rhemists vpon the sixt of Luke write that Protestants are wont to say All is very easie which is a lie Againe say they the Protestants thinke that to burne is to be tempted onely which is a lie 1. Cor. 7. Thirdly vpon the 9. chap. of the first epist of Paul to the Cor. they say that protestants will not haue men worke well in respect of reward at Gods hands which is a lie I desire thee Christian reader to read the Rhemists annotatiōs where thou shalt finde many slaunders but I delight not in these things Bellarmine affirmeth that Caluin maketh God the author of fin againe he saith that Caluin holdeth that the saints departed are not blessed he saith also that he died calling vpon the deuill which are monstrous lies Genebrard accuseth Caluin of errour in saying that the sonne of God is God of himselfe Bellarmine defendeth Caluine against Genebrard nowe let euery man iudge of this syllogisme They which are lyars are of a false religion But the Papists are lyars ergo Christian reader I would not haue vsed this tearme of lying so often but that I haue beene vrged by the Doctor For railing I referre thee to M. Hardings workes as also to Doctor Stapletons writings against M. Doctor Whitakers in which thou maist see the spirit of papists The 20. reason Keeping in memorie Gods benefits That the memorie of Gods benefits is carefully to