Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	faith_n	word_n	write_a	3,171	5	10.6412	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A63393	The Quakers rounds, or, A Faithful account of a large discourse between a party of them called Quakers viz. William Fisher and Edward Burroughs, &c with Mr. Philip Taverner, Mr. Richard Goodgroom, and Mr. M. Hall, ministers of the Gospel ... / published by William Taverner, preacher of the Word.	W. F. (William Fisher); Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662.	1658 (1658)	Wing T248; ESTC R31011	28,134	41

The Quakers Rounds OR A faithful Account of a large Discourse between a Party of them called Quakers Viz. William Fisher and Edward Burroughs c. with Mr. Philip Taverner Mr. Richard Goodgroom and Mr. M. Hall Ministers of the Gospel at the Publick Meeting-Place of West-Drayton in the County of Middlesex at which time and place the Quakers maintained I. That the Scriptures were not the Word of God because the Devil spake something and Pharaoh spake something that is there written II. That no Man is Iustified further than he is Sanctified III. That evil Motions not consented to are not sin IV. That Perfection is Attainable in this Life V. That the Scriptures were given to the World not to the Saints Published by William Taverner Preacher of the Word LONDON Printed by G. Dawson for Lodowick Lloyd and are to be sold at his Shop at the Castle in Cornwel 1658. To the READER Friendly Reader THou hast here as orderly a Relation of a confused Discourse as the disorder in it would admit the multitude of words which this dayes work was filled up with I do not undertake to set down they were legions and far exceeding the largest memory but the sum and substance of what was spoken on both sides is truly related and here and there some few words inserted for a further proof and clearing of things spoken to The Controversie lay cheifly between Mr. Richard Goodgroom the Objector and Edward Burroughs the Defendant to whom William Fisher was an Assistant which two were the chief Speakers on that side The Particulars objected against E. B. which he had formerly delivered in a private Meeting were as followeth VIZ. I. That the Scriptures were not the Word of God because the Devil spake something and Pharaoh something which is there written II. That no Man is Justified further than he is Sanctified III. That evil motions not consented to are not sin IV. That Perfection is attainable in this Life V. That the Scriptures were given to the World not to the Saints These E. B. would not at first own to be his as coming from the mouth of the Objector and yet owned every of them in his Discourse unless the last which he endeavoured to skin over with that Text John 5.29 but to no purpose his own doubtless they were else why would he undertake to maintain them his Zeal in contending for them makes it evident beyond all Controversie that he is the true father of the child There were some things in the managing of this Dispute if it deserves such a name just matter of reproof 1. A disorderly and confused speaking of many at sometimes together both Parties must confess guilty in this thing 2. A great prejudice in each Party against other which appeared in this neither Party was willing to own what the other said though for substance they held the same thing so that what with passion and prejudice meeting together there seemed rather a contending for Victory than for Truth I fear there is neither Party can plead innocent in this matter But I will no longer detain the Reader in an Epistle onely he may please to take notice That E. B. and W. F. were the chief Speakers on that side called Quakers R. G. was the Man engaged in the Controversie who heard those things delivered in a private Meeting by the person formerly named P. T. and Mr. Hall came as Hearears not as Parties engaged further than other of the Company being free to own Truth wheresoever they found it and being present did sometimes speak when they found Truth engaging them thereto Now that God would heal the breaches of Sion and turn to his People a pure lip that they might all call upon the Name of the Lord to serve him with one shoulder Zeph. 3.9 is the hearty desire and prayer of him Who owns all Saints in the bond of Love under what distinction of Form soever PHIL. TAVERNER A true Relation of a giddy confused Discourse between a Party of them called QUAKERS and some others in the Publick Meeting-place at West-drayton in the County of Middlesex Ian. 18. 1657. THE first thing delivered by E. B. and objected against by R. G. Viz. I. That the Scriptures were not the Word of God because the Devil spake something and Pharaoh something which is there written A strange kind of Assertion as if nothing of the mind will and counsel of God were declared in the Scriptures because something which the Devil spake and something which Pharaoh and other wicked men spake is there related so much seems to be implyed in the reason as brought to prove the Assertion yet do I not beleeve that the person asserting this doth so think or judge of the Scriptures for his acknowledgements were more honest in many things granted by him if his heart and tongue were agreed in the things which in words he sometimes seemed to own but whitherto can be the tendency of such giddy Doctrins then to a weakening the authority of the Scriptures and begetting in their hearers slighting and undervaluing thoughts concerning the written Word if this were not the intention of the speaker it is well but that the thing spoken hath such a tendency in it who but may easily see Yea and it is much to be feared that such a rash and inconsiderate kind of speaking hath brought forth in many an effect of its own likenes viz. a sitting loose from lightly esteeming the holy Scriptures as a low weak and useless ministration To this first thing Edward Burroughs made reply after this manner E. B. You lay it not down in my words and also mistake my meaning R. G. Whatsoever was your meaning these were your words and I have not wronged you a tittle P. T. The question then is to which of you two most credit is to be given R. G. I have not added nor diminshed a tittle concerning his words and there are others who can beare witness that these were his words his very words E. B. I sayed then and so I say still that the Scripture is not the Word of God but a declaration of the Word the Scriptures testifie of Christ who is the Word but are not the Word themselves P. T. We destinguish between the Essential and Declarative word of God we own Christ the former and the Scriptures the latter E. B. I say the Scriptures are a Declaration of but are not the very Word of God P. T. You do deny them to be the Declarative word of truth an answer may be easily given yea or nay which we wait to hear E. B. I pray all take notice I say the Scriptures are a Declaration but not the Word of God and they are a Declaration of Truth and falsehood there is that which is false Declared in them as well as truth and therefore cannot be the Word of God For there is something Declared in them which the Devill spake and something which Pharaoh and other

those who receive and beleeve in him whereby they stand faultless and without spot before God R. G. Now you clearly own Justification by inherent righteousness and agree fully with your lelf in your former assertion that no man is justified farther then sanctified E. B. Inherent righteousness is no Scripture terme and we desire ye would keep to the form of wholesome words R. G. It is clearly implyed if not expressed in the Scriptures and is not a term of any difficult understanding E. B. Ye are Schollars and reade bookes we are men brought up at the Plow-tayle and understand not scholarly terms P. T. My Friend this was a digression and the whole was little other There are three books which I read in cheif and I think I may speake the same for others The booke of the Scriptures The booke of my own heart and experience thridly The book of Christian observation And I have observed this day on both sides much of selfishness and this mixt with some degree of passion there are few if any can say I am free some discovering it in words others in carriages E. B. Did after this multiply many words concerning our own works being weake and imperfect but the work of Christ perfect and glorious and that we are not Justified by our own works of righteousness but by the work of righteousness which Christ works for us R. G. You hold Justification to be by those workes of rigteousness which Christ works in us directly contrary to what the Apostle affirmes viz. That we are justified by faith not by works E. B. I utterly deny all our own works and righteousness in the matter of Justification R. G. The Apostle denies al works according to the Law whatsoever Rom. 3.28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by Faith without the Works of the Law W. F. Dost thou deny all Works in point of Justification R. G. We are Justified by Faith without the Works of the Law W. F. Thou sayest we are justified by Faith and yet deniest all Works in the matter of Justification is not Faith a Work R. G. Faith Justifies only instrumentally it is not the meritorious but the instrumental cause of our Justification neither doth it Justifie instrumentally as our work or a work wrought in us by the Spirit but with respect to its object Christ And let me here add a word or two not then spoken 1. Justification by Grace by Christ by Faith is all one and the same Justification unto which all these concur as several causes respectively 2. We must distinguish between the merit or proper debt of Works and the bare performance of something called in the Scripture by the name of a work The former the Scripture every where denies in the point of Justification but concerning the latter the performance of something called and owned in the Scripture under the name of a work it doth not deny yea it expresly cals Faith a work John 6.29 and this is required unto Justification 3. Faith hath a hand in this business of Justification no otherwise than instrumentally 4. Faith doth not Justifie instrumentally by vertue of any inherent worth or excellency in it self more than in Love or any other fruit of the Spirit but by vertue of divine Institution as God hath appointed it to serve for this end John 6.40 W. F. I shall prove and according to Scripture that we are justified not by Faith onely but by Works also And it may be if I read the words out of the Scripture ye will have the more patience to hear me And reading certain verses in the latter part of the second Chapter of James he with much carefulness notes that in vers 24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by Faith onely having read to the end he then carries on his Discourse Ye see they are the very words of the Apostle and I hope ye will not deny them we speak no other than according to the form of wholesome words that by works a man is justified and not by faith only but thou sayest by faith onely and to prove this truth the Apostle ye all see brings two eminent examples the one of Abraham the other of Rahab what can be spoken more plainly and proved more strongly that by works a man is justified and not by faith only so was Abraham so was Rahab justified and so are we justified at this day by works and not by faith onely By works not our own works according to the Law but the work of God in us our own works which we our selves have wrought or do work are weak and imperfect but the works of God in us are all perfect and glorious yea meritorious we are not justified by ought our selves have done or can do all our own work of righteousness is worthless and imperfect but the works of God in us are of infinite vertue and worth Mr. Hall Will you own that the works of righteousness which are wrought in us by the Spirit are meritorous W. F. I say it is a perfect and a glorious work which God works in us P. T. And you said meritorious no farther reply was made to this it was it may be no more then a slip of the tongue I judge it no worse R. G. The Apostle in this latter part of the Chap. dealing with some who turned grace into wantonness and boasted of their faith without works endeavours to convince such of their great mistake and proves that true faith is never separated from works of righteousness For though faith alone justifies yet that faith which is alone doth not justifie true faith being ever fruitfull and working by love W. F. The Apostle speaks plain Was not Abraham our father justified by works ver 21. likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works ver 25. P. T. The Apostle speaks of the Justification of our faith before men not the Justification of our persons before God fruitfulness in works of righteousness is a proof of a true faith the Apostles design in this latter part of the Chap. is to shew the difference between a true and a counterfeit a dead a living faith W. F. The Apostle affirms that both Abraham and Rahab the harlot were justified through works R. G. I shall make it appear from Scripture that Ahraham was justified by faith before his going about to offer up his son Isaac which is that eniment work the Apostle here makes mention of W. F. And was Rahab the harlot Justified before her righteous work of receiving the messengers and sending them out another way R. G. I speak of Abraham and in the same way that Abraham was justified was Rahab justified also viz. by faith which was declared by works And concerning Abraham it is said Gen. 15.6 He beleeved in the Lord and it was counted to him for righteousness Here is Abrahams Justification by faith clearely asserted and owned by the Apostle

in opposion to Justification by works according to the law Rom. 4.2.3 And this was before Abraham had ever a Child which will clearely appear if you consult the Scriptures So that Abraham was justified by faith before he went to offer up his son Isaac he was before that act of obedience a justified person therefore not justified hereby but onely declared to be a true beleever his faith was hereby clearely manifest and no more can be drawn from this of the Apostle James if we do seriously weigh ver 18 19 20. and compare what followes with these going before And here ended this confused dispute about Justification in which point it is feared by some that those called Quakers if all of the same mind with E. B. and. W. F. have a Pope in their belly if so I heartily wish the Lord would shew them their errour recover their feet out of the snare and deliver them from the delusion I have since this Dispute met with a Book called A Standard lift up for all People The Author this E. B. there are three passages which I took notice of in it relating to JUSTIFICATION I. PAge 3. Chap. 1. towards the end of the Chapter it is said God Justifieth the Righteous and condemneth the Wicked If by justifying be meant Gods owning approving and accepting the Righteous and that the same God doth not accept but disown the Wicked in their wickedness then is it a Truth of the same stamp with that Psal 5.4 5. But if by justifying be meant that of absolving and acquiting from guilt and condemnation which is that the Apostle so often cals Justification how will it agree with that in Rom. 4.5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly c. II. Page 11. Chap. 8. It is the new man that is justified not the old If by justifying be meant as before Gods owning and accepting with delight so it is true God accepts owns and delights in nothing but the new Creature in us for what is after the will of the flesh or the old man in us is the object of his loathing and shall be destroyed But if by justifying be meant in the second sence an acquitting and absolving the sinner from guilt and condemnation then how can the new man which never sinned be said to be justified vix from sin or to be acquitted from guilt and condemnation which it was never under III. Page 11. Chap. 8. lin 3. And such as are taught by Christ and guided by him in all the wayes of Truth and Righteousness are justified by him and none else not in any word or work whatsoever but in what they are led to fulfil by him What strange contradiction in the two last clauses as if what they are led to fulfil by him were not a work And here again If by being justified in what they are led to fulfil by Christ be only meant a being accepted and owned of God in the thing done It is granted that God accepts of nothing from us but what is the work of his own Spirit and Grace in us but if by being justified in what they are led to fulfil by him be meant that Justification which himself cals lin 11. of this Chapter A being cleared from condemnation in the sight of God What could the Pope himself have spoken more plain for effecting Justification by inherent Righteousness or the work of the Law wrought in us For what can that clause in what they are led to fulfil by him relate to but a conformity to the righteous holy and good Law of God And if this be our Justification to what purpose was the death of Christ For a perfect conformity to the Law of God in our own persons though not wrought in our own strength but in the strength and power of Grace the Spirit working all in us and for us is no other than the Righteousness of the Law And as to this Point ye cannot be ignorant of what the Apostle saith If Righteousness be by the Law then Christ dyed in vain Gal. 2.21 Several other Passages I have taken notice of in in this Book some contradictory others dark and doubtful as to what is the Authors aim in them PAge 4. Chap. 2. And this Christ Jesus the Son of God is the light and life of the World and hath enlightned all mankind every one that cometh into the world is lighted by him with the true light of life or condemnation And page 22. Christ Jesus the second Adam lighteth every man and all mankind that cometh into the World with the true light How do these agree with that Page 25. Chap. 19. Mans state in the first Adam in transgression is a state of perfect enmity against God and Death reigns in every man and he is possessed with blindness ignorance and unbelief c I say how do these agree unless there be granted a general restauration of all men which yet you seem to deny in Page 10. Chap. 6. where you acknowledge some to be in a state unreconciled to God and having no part nor portion in these things which belong to their peace Page 10. lin 1. Many profess them in words what others enjoy of these things but have not felt in themselves the working of the eternal Spirit neither have the witness in themselves of being restored again From this latter clause a twofold question ariseth for your words speak not forth your meaning clearly 1. Whether none are restored again but those that have the witness in themselves Or secondly Whether all are restored but some want the witness of this in themselves which you mean is doubtful Page 10. Chap. 7. in the three last lines This Religion and Worship stands in Christ Jesus the second Adam who hath lighted every man that comes into the World that all men through him might believe c. Hence this question ariseth Whether that light which is in all and every particular man is sufficient without any thing farther of speciall grace superadded to bring up every man to beleeve in Christ unto salvation or to beleeve in God by meanes of Christ 1 Pet. 1.20 Pag. 5. Chap. 3. This is the testimony of the Spirit of God and it leadeth into all truth and out of all evill all that are guided by it and it is given to be the guide and rule of life to the Children of God Whence this question for in these things he speakes darkely and doubtfully Whether the Spirit is so given to be the guide and rule of life to the Saints that they have no more need to attend upon the Scriptures Chap. 19. After many other things it follows pag. 28. towards the end And the light of Christ in every one shall give testimony to it unto which I do onely commend my self and these truths to be witnessed Can these be wittnesses to you and of the truth in you who are as you say Pag. 6. Chap. 4. ignorant of the life power and wisedome of the Creatour to leade guide and preserve them following the counsell of their own heart which is evill altogether c. or can such judge between light and darkness between truth and falsehood who are possessed with blindness igorance and unbeleife and wholly imperfect to receive the things of Gods kingdom or to act any thing for God acceptable to him pag. 25. Chap. 19. Pag. 17. Chap. 13. It is truely said That the word of God was in the heart and mouth of the servant of God and that from it they spake forth the Scriptures and then followes As they were moved by the holy ghost through the eternal Spirit Do you make the Holy Ghost and eternall Spirit two or what do you mean by Holy Ghost it is indeed a usuall word among us though there be little to bear up the use of it more then long custome but by Holy Ghost we mean the holy and eternall Spirit what you mean wants an interpreter to find out and make known who seeme to make them two because you say by the holy Ghost through the eternall Spirit Pag. 10. Chap. 7. This is true religion c. where is given forth the same description of true Religion for substance with that of the Apostle James 1.26.27 and towards the end of the page it is said This is acceptable and well pleasing to God above all words and outward conformity and set times and dayes and observances c. This is subscribed to as honest and true and yet may a snake lie in this grasse The question therefore offers it self viz. Whether a doing the greater things of the law is acceptable where the lesse are neglected when it is said I will have mery not sacrifice or mercy rather then sacrifice which is the meaning God did not so require mercy as wholly to take off from Sacrifice onely hereby is declared that God prefers that before this which is true unto this day God requires to speake the truth and do the truth in all things to do unto all men as a man would be done unto to love God with all our heart and our neghbour as our selves c. But hence will not follow an abolition of all institute Worship consisting in the use of such Ordinances which Christ hath appointed and which were in use among the Saints in the primitive times God indeed prefers the former before this but stil requires us to mind according to that of Christ These things ye ought to have done and not to leave the other undone FINIS