that because â—e speak not as big as Mr. S. does we â—ust be censured presently to have noâ—hing but probabilities for our faith Are â—hose bare probabilities which leave no â—uspicion of doubt behind them and â—uch we freely assert the grounds of â—ur religion to do i. e. I assert that we have the highest actual certainty of the truth of our Religion which the mind of any reasonable man can desire and if Mr. S's demonstrations can do any more then this let him tell us what it is For my part I know nothing higher in the mind of man then a certain assent and if I did not think there was the greatest ground in Religion for that I abhorr dissimulation so much that I should leave off perswading men to embrace it And if any men have made us shye of the word demonstration and infallibility they are such men as Mr. S. have done it who talk of these things when their arguments fall beneath some of the remotest probabilities we insist on Nay if there be any force in his demonstration as to matters of fact it hath been used by us long before his book saw the light But we love to give the true names to things and not to lose our credit with all intelligent persons by playing Mountebanks in Religion crying 〈◊〉 those things for infallible cures which an ordinary capacity may discern the insufficiency of But was it any thinâ— but justice and reason in me to expeâ—â— and call for a demonstration from them who talk of nothing under it And therefore I said that it was impossible to demonstrate this way of oral tradition unless it were proved impossible for men not to think themselves obliged to believe and do all just as their predecessors did For where the contrary is not only possible but easily supposable â—s that men may believe those things as new articles of faith which are defined by Pope and Council I wonder how Mr. S. will demonstrate that men must â—ook on themselves as obliged to beâ—â—eve just as their predecessors did For I had thought demonstrations had â—ever place in contingent propositions but it seems Mr. S. who tells me Logick will unblunder my thoughts inâ—ends to make a new one for me And â— assure you so he had need before I â—hall ever call his arguments demonâ—trations and although he thinks himâ—elf very honest in calling them so yet â— should think him much wiser if he did not But before I come to the particular debate of these things I freely tell him that I grant all he requests â— shall take along with me the nature of the matter in hand the doctrines anâ— practises spoken of the manner of delivering them the necessary circumstanceâ— which give weight to both yet for alâ— these I cannot look on his way as demonstrative And that both our meanings may be better understood it iâ— very necessary the Reader should havâ— a true account of the state of the Question between us And if he will believe me I never intended to disputâ— with him or any one else whether meâ— were bound to wear their clothes or builâ— houses or manage estates just as theiâ— predecessors did but whether eveâ— age is obliged to believe and practiâ— just as the precedent did by vertue oâ— meer oral tradition for about that iâ— all the controversie between us I dâ— not deny but that a succeeding agâ— may look on it self as bound to believe what the precedent did buâ— whether that obligation doth ariâ— purely from the delivery of that doctrine by the precedent in the way oâ— of tradition is the thing in dispute between us For in case the ground â— faith be wholly the written word conveyed from age to age I deny not but an obligation to believe descends with the doctrine to every succeeding age But that which Mr. S. is to prove is that abstractly from Scripture every age is absolutely bound to believe just as the precedent did without any enquiry whether that doctrine doth agree with Scriptures or no but that he is therefore bound to believe all which is proposed to him because it was the doctrine of the immediately preceding age And this is that which I deny and desire Mr. S. to prove For which he first gives us a large instance in historical matters and then comes to the matters of Christian saith His Instance is in Alexanders conquest of Asia as to which he saith that the memory of it is fresh and lively though some thousand years since And that the universal and strong perswasion of this matter of fact was not caused by Books as Curtius his History but by humane tradition that the continuance of this perswasion was the notoriety of the fact to the then livers which obliged them to relate it to their posterity and that this testifying by the fore-fathers was that which obliged posterity to believe things as true because there could be no imaginable motive why the whole world should conspire to deceive them or be deceivable in their sensations on which principle it passed to the next age and so came down by way of tradition to our dayes and the obligation to believe in every age depended upon this that the senses of the first could not be deceived and having this security in every age that no one would conspire to deceive the next it followes that no age could say a former age testified so unless it did so therefore saith he it follows demonstratively that it was testified and so the descendents in every age to the very end of the world have the same obligation to believe their immediate fore-fathers saying it was testified by theirs and so to the very first who were witnesses of his actions This is the substance of what he more largely discourses in several Paragraphs which when he hath done he tells me he expects what I will reply to this discourse Not to frustrate therefore his expectation and in order to the Readers satisfaction we are to consider that in the present case there are two distinct questions to be resolved 1. How a matter of fact evident to the world comes to be conveyed to posterity 2. By what means a compleat history of all passages relating to it may be conveyed As 〈◊〉 the first I grant that a fact so notoâ—us as Alexanders conquest of Asia might have been preserved by humane tradition and conveyed in a certain way from one age to another But if we enquire into that which is alone proper to our Question viz. by what means we may judge what is true and false as to the particulars of that conquest then I deny that bare tradition is to be relyed on in this case For the certainty of conveyance of all particulars doth depend not upon the bare veracity but the capacity and skill of communicating from one age to another For which one would think we need no clearer evidence then the considerations of the different
self-evident no wonder if he believes that to have been delivered by a constant Tradition which was never heard of from the Apostles times to these Now Mr. S. is pleased to return to me and draws up a fresh charge against me which is that I act like a Politician and would conquer them by first dividing them and making odius comparisons between two parties of Divines But to shew us how little they differ he distinguishes them as faithful and as private discoursers in the former notâ—on he saith they all hold the same divinely constituted Church-Government and the same self-evident rule of faith but as private discoursers he acknowledges they differ in the explication of their belief I meddle not here â—â—th the Government of their Church which I have elswhere proved to be far enough from being divinely constituted but with the rule of faith and the question is whether the infallibility of or altradition be that self-evident rule which that Church proceeds on Yes saith Mr. S. they are all as faithful agreed in it but as discoursers they differ about it Which in short is that all in the Church of Rome who are not of his opinion know not what they say and that they oppose that which they do really believe Which in plain English is that they are egregious dissemblers and prevaricators in Religion that they do intolerably flatter the Pope and present Church with loud declamations for their infallibility but they do really believe no such thing but resolve all into oral tradition But is not this an excellent agreement among them when Mr. White and his party not only disown the common doctrine of the infallibility of Pope and Councils but dispute against it as pernicious and destructive to Christian faith on the other side the far greater part of Romanists say there can be no certainty of faith unless there be an infallible divine testimony in the present Church and this lodged in Pope and Councils that those who endeavour to overthrow this are dangerous seditious heretical persons Accordingly their Books are censured at Rome their opinions disputed against and their persons condemned And yet all this while we must believe that these stick together like two smooth Marbles as faithful though they are knocked one against another as discoursers and that they perfectly agree in the same self-evident rule of faith when all their quarrels and contentions are about it and those managed with so great heat that heresie is charged of one side and Arch-heresie and undermining Religion on the other Doth he think we never heard of Mr. Whites Sonus Succinae nor of that Chapter in it where he saith that the doctrine of Pope and Councils infallibility tends to overthrow the certainty of Christian faith and that the propagating such a doctrine is a greater crime then burning Temples ravishing the sacred Virgins on the Altars trampling on the body of Christ or the sending the Turk or Antichrist into Christian Countreys Or doth he think we can believe that the Pope and Cardinals the Jesuites and all the Papists of forreign Countreys do as faithful agree with Mr. White in this It seems not so by the proceedings in the Court of Rome against him in which as appears by the censure of the Inquisition against him dated 17. November 1661. his doctrine is condemned not only as false seditious and scandalous but as heretical and erroneous in faith And if it were not for this very doctrine he was there censured why doth Mr. White set himself purposely to defend it in his Tabulae suffragiales If these then do agree as faithful who cannot but envy the excellent harmony of the Roman Church in which men condemn each other for hereticks and yet all believe the same things still Well Sir I am in hopes upon the same grounds Mr. S. will yield us the same charity too and tell us that we agree with him as faithful only we differ a little from him as discoursers for I assure you there is as great reason the only difference is we give them not such ill words as they do each other For let Mr. S. shew us wherein we differ more from him about the Rule of Faith than they do among themselves For Mr White when he hath said that all kind of heresie doth arise from hence that men make the holy Scripture or a private spirit the rule of faith he presently adds it is all one if one make councils or Pope any other way than as witnesses to be the authors of faith For saith he this is to subject the whole Church to that slavery to receive any errour for an article of faith which they shall define or propose modo illegitimo i. e. any other way then as witnesses of tradition Either then we differ from Mr. S. only as discoursers or he and his Brethren differ from each other more then as such And so any one would think who reads the oppositions and arguments against each other on this subject particularly Mr. Whites Tabulae suffragiales But let Mr. White say what he will Mr. S. tells me I am not aware how little they differ even as Divines The more shame for them to have such furious heats and oppositions where there is so little difference But as little as they differ Mr. White thinks it safer to talk of their unity in England than to try whether they be of his mind at Rome by going thither to clear himself for he justly fears he should find them differ from him some other way theâ— as bare discoursers Yet let us heaâ— Mr. S's reason for saith he thougâ— some speculators attribute to the Churcâ— a power of defining things not held before yet few will say she hath new revelations or new articles of faith Buâ— we know the temper of these men better then to rely on what they barelâ— say For they say what they think 〈◊〉 most for their purpose and onâ— of Mr. Whites adversaries if himselâ— may be credited plainly told him iâ— the doctrine of the Popes infallibility werâ— not true yet it ought to be defended bâ—cause it was for the interest of the Churcâ— of Rome for which he is sufficientlâ— rebuked by him It is one thing theâ— what they say and another what necessarily follows from the doctrinâ— which they assert But for plain dealing commend me to the Canonists who say expresly the Church by whicâ— they mean the Pope may make new articles of faith and this is the sense of the rest though they are loth to speak out Else Mr. White was much too blame in spending so much time in proving the contrary But what man of common sense can imagine that these men can mean otherwise who assert such an infallibility in Pope and Councils as to oblige men under pain of eternal damnation to believe those things which they were not obliged to before such a definition And what can this be else but to make new
his book or not iâ— not to what purpose doth he write â— if he doth then it is to be hoped soâ— matters of faith may be intelligibly conveyed by writing Especially if Mr. S. doth it but by no means we are tâ— believe that ever the Spirit of God caâ— do it For whatever is written by meâ— assisted by that is according to him buâ— a heap of dead letters and insignificanâ— characters when Mr. S. the mean while is full of sense and deâ—onstration Happy man that can thus out-do inâ—nite wisdom and write far beyond either Prophets or Apostles But if he will condescend so far as to allow that to inspired persons which he confidently believes of himself viz. that he can write a book full of sense and that any ordinary capacity may apprehend the design of it our controversie is at an end For then matters of faith may be intelligibly and certainly conveyed to posterity by the books of Scripture and if so there will be no need of any recourse to oral Tradition 5. If the books of sâ—ripture did not certainly and intelligibly convey all matters of faith what made them be received with so much veneration in the first ages of the Christian Church which were best able to judge of the truth of the matters contained â—n them and the usefulness of the books themselves And therein we still find that appeals were made to them that they thought themselves concerned to vindicate them against all objections of Heathens and others and the resolution of faith was made into them and not tradition as I have already manifested and must not repeat 6. Whether it be in the least credible since the books of Scripture were supposed to contain the doctrines of faith that every age of the Church should look on it self as obliged absolutely to believe the doctrine of the precedent by vertue of an oral tradition For since they resolved their faith into the written books how is it possible they should believe on the account of an oral tradition Although then the Apostles did deliver the doctrine of Christ to all their disciples yet since the records of it were embraced in the Church men judged of the truth or falsehood of doctrines by the conveniency or repugnancy of them to what was contained in those books By which we understand that the obligation to believe what was taught by the precedent age did not arise from the oral tradition of it but by the satisfaction of the present age that the doctrine delivered by it was the same with that contained in Sâ—ripture It is time now to return to Mr. S. who proceeds still to manifest this obligation in posterity to believe what was delivered as matter of faith by the precedent age of the Church but the force of all is the same still viz. that otherwise one age must conspire to deceive the next But the inconsequence of that I have fully shewed already unless he demonstrates it impossible for errors to come in any other way For if we reduce the substance of what he saith to a Syllogistical form it comes to this Where there is no possibility of error there is an absolute obligation to faith but there is no possibility of error in the tradition of any age of the Church Ergo in every age there is an absolute obligation to believe the tradition of the present Church The minor he thus proves If no age of the Church can be ignorant of what the precedent taught or conspire to deceive the next then there is no possibility of error coming into the tradition of the Church in any age but the antecedent is true and therefore the consequent Now who sees not that the force of all this lyes not in proving the minor proposition or that no age could conspire to deceive another but the consequence viz. that no error can come into a Church but by a general mistake in one whole age or the general imposture of it which we utterly deny and have shewed him already the falsness of it from his own concessions And I might more largely shew it from those doctrinâ—s or opinions which they themselves acknowledge to have come into their Church without any such general mistake or imposture as the doctrines of Papal Insallibility and the common belief of Purgatory The very same way that Mr. White and Mr. S. will shew us how these came in we will shew him how many others came in as erroneous and scandalous as those are For whether they account these matters of faith or no it is certain many among them do and that the far greatest number who assert and believe them to be the doctrine of their Church too If therefore these might come in without one age mistaking or deceiving the next why might not all those come in the same way which we â—harge upon them as the errors of their Church And in the same manner that corrupt doctrines come in may corrupt practises too since these as he saith spring srom the other He might therefore have saved himself the trouble of finding out how an acute Wit or great Scholar would discover the weakness of this way For without pretending to be either of these I have found out another way of attaquing it then Mr. S. looked for viz. from his own principles and concessions shewing how errors might come into a Church without a total deception or conspiracy in any one age Which if it be true he cannot bind me to believe what ever he tells me the present Church delivers unless he can prove that this never came into the Church as a speculation or private opinion and from thence by degrees hath come to be accounted a point of faith Therefore his way of proof is now quite altered and he cannot say we are bound to believe whatever the present Church delivers for that which he calls the present Church may have admitted speculations and private opinions into doctrines of faith but he must first prove such doctrines delivered by Christ or his Apostles and that from his time down to our age they have been received by the whole Church for matters of faith and when he hath done this as to any of the points in controversie between us I will promise him to be his Proselyte But he ought still to remember that he is not to prove it impossible for one whole age to conspire to deceive the next but that supposing that it is impossible for any errors to come into the tradition of the Church Let us now see what Mr. S. objects against those words I then used against the demonstrating this way It is hard to conceive what reason should inforce it but such as proves the impossibility of the contrary and they have understandings of another mould from others who can conceive it impossible men should not think themselves obliged to believe and do all just as their predecessors And whatever Mr. S. sayes to the contrary
I cannot yet see but that therein I argued from the very nature and constitution of the thing For that which â— looked for was a demonstration which I supposed could not be unless the impossibility of the contrary were demonstrated But if it be possible for men Christians nay Romanists to believe on other accounts then the tradition of the precedent age I pray what demonstration can there be that men must think themselves obliged to believe and do all just as their predecessors did Surely if Mr. S's fancy had not been very extravagant he could never have thought here of mens being obliged to cut their Beards or wear such Garters and Hat-bands as their fore-fathers did For do I not mention believing first and then doing by which it were easie to apprehend that I meant matters of faith and such practises as flow from them Neither was there any such crafty and sophistical dealing as he charges me with for I am content his doctrine be taken in his own terms and I have now given a larger and fuller account why I am far from being convinced by the way he hath used for resolving faith Passing by therefore his challenge which I accept of as long as he holds to the weapon of reason and civility I come to consider his last enquiry why I should come to doubt of such an obligation in posterity to believe their ancestors in matters of faith and he judiciously resolves it into a strange distortion of human nature but such as it seems is the proper effect of the Protestants temper which is saith he to chuse every one his faith by his private judgement or wit working upon disputable words Which as far as we own it is not to believe what we see no ground for and if this be such a distortion of humane nature I envy not Mr. S's uprightness and perfection If he means that we build our faith on our private judgements in opposition to Scripture or the Universal Tradition of the Church in all ages let him prove it evidently in one particular and I engage for my self and all true Protestants we will renounce the belief of it If he hath any thing further to object against the Grounds of our Religion he knows where to attaque me let him undertake the whole or else acknowledge it a most unreasonable thing thus to charge falsities upon us and then say we have nothing else to say for our selves We pretend not to chuse our faith but heartily embrace whatever appears to have been delivered by Christ or his Apostles but we know the Church of Rome too well to believe all which she would impose upon us and are loth to have her chuse our Religion for us since we know she hath chosen so ill for her self But if Mr. S. will not believe me in saying thus what reason have I to believe him in saying otherwise such general charges then signifie nothing but every one must judge according to the reason on both sides I now come to the last part of my task which is to shew that this way is repugnant to common sense and experience and that the Church of Rome hath apparently altered from what was the belief of former ages To which purpose my words are It is to no purpose to prove the impossibility of motion when I see men move no more is it to prove that no age of the Church could vary from the preceding when we can evidently prove that they have done it And therefore this argument is intended only to catch easie minds that care not for a search into the history of the several ages of the Church but had rather sit down with a superficial subtilty then spend time in further enquiries But two things Mr. S. tells me are required ere I can see that their faith varies from the former First to see what their Church holds now and then to see what the former Church held before and he kindly tells me if he sees any thing I see neither well It seems I want Mr. S's spectacles of oral tradition to see with but as yet I have no cause to complain of the want of them but â— see much better without them theâ— with them He tells me I cannot see what their present Church holds anâ— therefore I cannot assure any what wâ— held before because if I renounce tradition I take away all means of knowing The reason why I cannot candidly see as he phrases it what their Church holds now is because I cannot distinguish between faith and its explication some Schoolmen and the Church By which it seems it is impossible for me to know what their Church holds concerning Invocation of Saints Worship of Images Communion in one kind for those are the points I there mention wherein it is evident that the Church of Rome hath receded from the doctrine and practise of the Primitive Church Or are these only the opinions and practises of some Schoolmen among them and not the doctrine and practise of their Church But that we might come to some fuller state of these controversies I wish M. S. would settle some sure way whereby we might know distinctly what are the doctrines and practises of their Church If the Council of Trent and Roman-Catechism be said to be the rule of doctrine I desire no other so that those may be interpreted by practises universally allowed among them As when that Council only defined that due honour be given to Saints the general practise of that Church may tell us what they mean by that due honour and if that be not fair I know not what is But I see all the shift Mr. S. hath is when he is pinched to say those are the opinions of Schoolmen and private speculators and not the doctrine of their Church And if such shifts as these are must serve the turn I should wonder if ever he be to seek for an answer But the shortest answer of all would be that none but those of their Church can know what she holds and therefore it is to no purpose for Protestants to write against her or it may be that none but Mr. S. and one or two more can tell for many among them say those are the doctrines of their Church which they deny to be So that except Mr. White and Mr. S. and some very few demonstrators more all the rest are Schoolmen private opinators and not to be relyed on But I cannot see what their Church held formerly neither No wonder at all of that for if I cannot see an object so near me as the present Church how can it be expected I should see one so much further off as the doctrine of former ages And his reason is so strong as may well perswade me out of one at least of my five senses For saith he if I question tradition I question whether there be any doctrine delivered and so any Fathers And is not this argued
the Latins It seems then a deceptiâ— is possible in the case of testifying 〈◊〉 therefore this doth more than perâ—â—â— men to be decievable for here hath been an actual deception on one side or other But we need not fear losing mankind in this for the possibility oâ— errour supposeth mankind to continue still and if we take away that we mâ—â— sooner lose it than by the contrary But what repugnancy can we imagine to humane nature that meâ— supposing doctrines of faith to come down from Christ or his Apostles should yet mistake in judging what those doctrines are Had not men eyes and ears and common sense in Christ and the Apostles times and yet we see eveâ— then the doctrine of Christ was mistaken and is it such a wonder it should be in succeeding ages Did not the Nazarenes mistake in point of circumcision the Corinthians as to the resurrection and yet the mean time agree iâ— this that Christs doctrine was the rule of faith or that they ought to believe nothing but what came from him Diâ— not the disciples themselves err eveâ— while they were with Christ and certainly had eyes and ears an◠〈◊〉 sense as other men have concernâ—â—â—me great articles of Christian faith Christs passion resurrection and the natâ— of his Kingdom If then such who had the greatest opportunities imaginable and the highest apprehensions of Christ might so easily mistake in points of such moment what ground have we to believe that succeeding ages should not be lyable to such misapprehensions And it was not meerly the want of clear divine revelation which was the cause of their mistakes for these things were plain enough to persons not possessed with prejudices but those were so strong as to make them apprehend things quite another way than they ought to do So it was then and so it was in succeeding ages for â—et Parents teach what they pleased for matters of faith yet prejudice and â—yableness to mistake in Children might easily make them misapprehend either the nature or weight of the doctrines delivered to them So that setting aside a certain way of recording the matters of faith in the Books of Scripture and these preserved entire in every age it is an easie matter to conceive how in a short time Christian Religion would have been corrupted as much as ever any was in the world For when we consider how much notwithstanding Scripture the pride passion and interests of men have endeavoured to deface Christian Religion in the world what would not these have done if there had been no such certain rule to judge of it by Mr. S. imaginâ— himself in repub Platonis but it appearâ— he is still in faece Romuli he fancies there never were nor could be any differences among Christians and that all Christians made it their whole business to teach their posterity matters oâ— faith and that they minded nothing in the world but the imprinting thaâ— on their minds that they might have iâ— ready for their Children and that alâ— Parents had equal skill and sidelitâ— in delivering matters of Religion tâ— their posterity Whereas in truth wâ— find in the early ages of the Christiaâ— Church several differences about matters of faith and these differences continued to posterity but all parties stilâ— pleading that their doctrine came froâ— the Apostles it fell out unhappily for Mr. S. that those were commonly most grossly deceived who pretended the most to oral tradition from the Apostles still we find the grand debate was What came from the Apostles and what not whereas had tradition been so infallible a way of conveying how could this ever have come into debate among them What did not they know what their Parents taught them it seems they did not or their Parents were no more agreed than themselves for their differences could never be ended this way Afterwards came in for many ages such a succession of ignorance and barbarism that Christian Religion was little minded either by Parents or Children as it ought to have been instead of that some fopperies and superstitions were hugely in request and the men who fomented these things were cryed up as great Saints and workers of Miracles So that the miracles of S. Francis and S. Dominick were as much if not more carefully conveyed from Parents to Children in that age than those of Christ and his Apostles and on this account posterity must be equally bound to believe them and have their persons in equal veneration If men at last were grown wiser it was because they did not believe Mr. S's principles that they ought to receive what was delivered by their Parents but they began to search and enquire into the writings of former ages and to examine the opinions and practices of the present with those of the primitive Church and by this means there came a restauration of Learning and Religion together But though matters of fact be plain and evident in this case yet M. S. will prove it impossible there should any errours come into the Christian Church and his main argument is this because no age of the Church could conspire against her knowledge to deceive that age immediately following in matter of fact evident in a manner to the whole world But before I come more particularly to shew the weakness of this argument by manifesting how errours might come into the Church without such a conspiracy as this is I shall propound some Queries to him 1. What age of the Church he will instance in wherein all persons who were not cast out of the Church had the same apprehensions concerning all points of faith i. e. that none among them did believe more things delivered by Christ or the Apostles than others did I am sure he can neither instance in the age of the Apostles themselves nor in those immediately succeeding them unless Mr. S. the better to defend his hypothesis will question all written records because they consist of dead letters and unsenc't characters and wordish testimonies Never considering that while he utters this he writes himself unless he imagins there is more of life sense and certainty in his books than in the Scriptures or any other writing whatsoever 2. Where there were different apprehensions in one age of the Church whether there must not be different traditions in the next for as he looks on all Parents as bound to teach their Children so on Children as bound to believe what their Parents teach them On which supposition different traditions in the succeeding age must needs follow different apprehensions in the precedent 3. Whether persons agreeing in the substance of doctrines may not differ in their apprehensions of the necessity of them As for instance all may agree in the article of Christs descent into hell but yet may differ in the explication of it and in the apprehension of the necessity of it in order to salvation So that we must not only in tradition about matters of faith enquire
no age of the Church conspire to deceive another Either then Mr. S. must say there never were any private opinators or speculators in the Church as distinct from testifiers and then he unavoidably contradicts himself or he must deny that posterity is bound to believe what their fore-fathers delivered them as matters of faith which destroyes the force of his whole demonstration Perhaps he will answer that Children are not bound to believe what barely their Parents or aâ—other number of persons might deliver matters of faith but what the whole â—hurch of every age delivers This â—ough the only thing to be said in â—e case yet is most unreasonable beâ—â—use it runs men upon inextricable difâ—culties in the way of their resolving â—ith For suppose any Children â—ught by their Parents what they are â— believe Mr. S. must say they are â—ot bound to believe them presently â—ut to enquire whether they agree â—ith the whole Church of that Ageâ—rst â—rst before they can be obliged to asâ—nt Which being an impossible task â—ther for Children or men of age â— find out in the way of oral tradiâ—on this way of resolving faith â—oth but offer a fairer pretence for â—fidelity For we see how impossiâ—le it is for Mr. S. to make it appear â—hat their Church is agreed about the â—ule of faith for by his own confession â—he far greater number as speculatorsâ—ppose â—ppose the way asserted by him how â—uch more difficult then must it needs â—e to find out what the sense of the whole essential Church is in all matters which Parents may teach their Children for doctrines of faith So that if Chrildren are not bound to believe what their Parents teach them till they know they teach nothing but what the whole Church teaches it is the most compendious way to teach them they are not bound to believe at all But if this distinction be admitted as Mr. S. makes much use of it then it appears how errors may come into the Church at sirst under the notion of speculations and by degrees to be delivered as points of faith by which means those things may be received in the Church for such which were never delivered by Christ or his Apostles and yet no age conspire to deceive the next which was the thing to be shewed This is one way of shewing how errors may come into the Church without one ages conspiring to deceive the next but besides this there are several others I might insist upon but I shall mention only two more 1. Misinterpreting the sence of Scripure 2. Supposing it in the power oâ— some part of the Church to oblige the whole in matters of faith For the first we are to consider that no imaginable account can be given either of the writing or universal reception of the books of the New Testament if they were not designed for the preservation of the doctrine of Christ. And â—lthough it should be granted possible â—or the main and fundamental articles of Christian faith such as the Apostles Creed gives a summary account of â—o have been preserved by the help of â—radition yet unless we be extreamâ—y ungrateful we cannot but acknowledge that God hath infinitely â—etter provided for us in not leaving â—he grounds of our Religion to the â—eer breath of the people or the care â—f mothers instructing their Children â—ut hath given us the certain records â—fall the doctrines and motives of faith â—reserved inviolably from the first ages â—f the Church And when the Churchâ—w â—w with what care God had provided â—r the means of faith traditionâ—as â—as little minded thence the memory â—f those other things not recorded in â—cripture is wholly lost all the care â—as imployed in searching preserving and delivering these sacred books tâ— posterity To these the primitivâ— Church still appeals these they pleaâ— for against all adversaries defendinâ— their authority explaining their sense vindicating them from all corruptionâ— Tradition they rely not on any fuâ—ther then as a Testimony of the trutâ— of these records or to clear the senâ— of them from the perverse interprâ— tation of those Hereticks who pretenâ— ed another kind of tradition thâ— what was in Scripture And when theâ— were silenced all the disputes thâ— arose in the Church concerning matteâ— of faith was about the sense of the books as is evident by the proceeâ—ings in the case of Arius and Pelagiâ— Wherein Tradition was only used a means to clear the sense of the Sâ—ptures but not at all as that which tâ— faith of all was to be resolved intâ— But when any thing was pleaded frâ— tradition for which there was ground in Scripture it was reject with the same ease it was offered aâ— such persons were plainly told tâ— was not the Churches way if they bâ— plain Scripture with the concurrâ— sense of Antiquity they might produce â—t and rely upon it So that the whole â—se of Tradition in the primitive Church besides attesting the books was to shew the unreasonableness of â—mposing senses on Scripture against the universal sense of the Church from the Apostles times But as long as men were men it was not avoidable but they must fall into different apprehensions of the meaning of the Scripture according to their different judgements prejudices learning and education And since they had all this apprehension that the Scripture contained all doctrines of faith thence as men judged of the sense of it they differed in their apprehension concerning matters of faith And thence errors and mistakes might easily come into the Church without one age conspiring to deceive the next Nay if it be possible for men to rely on tradition without Scripture this may easily be done for by that means they make a new rule of faith not known to the primitive Church and consequently that very assertion is an error in which the former age did not conspire to deceive the next And if these things be possible M. S's demonstration fails him for hereby a reasonable account is given how errors may come into a Church without one age conspiring to deceive another Again let me enquire of Mr. S. whether men may not believe it in the power of the ruling part of the Church to oblige the whole to an assent to the definitions of it To speak plainer is it not possible for men to believe the Pope and Council infallible in their decrees And I hope the Jesuits as little as Mr. S. loves them or they him may be a sufficient evidence of more than the bare possibility of this If they may believe this doth it not necessarily follow that they are bound to believe whatever they declare to be matter of faith supposing then that Transubstantiation Supremacy Invocation of Saints were but private opinions before but are now defined by Pope and Council these men cannot but look on themselves as much obliged to believe them as if they had been delivered as matters of faith in every age since the Apostles times Is it
is a novel fancy of some few half-Catholicks in England and tends to subvert the Roman Church But is the present Pope with Mr. S. a private opinator or was the last a meer schoolman I am sure what ever Mr. S. thinks of him he thought not so of himself when he said he was no Divine in the controversie of Jansenius Doth the Court of Rome signifie no more with Mr. S. then a company of scholastick Pedants that know not what the sense of the Church is concerning the rule of faith I meddle not with the Schools but with the authority of the present Church and him whom Mr. S. owns for the head of it and is it consistent with his headship to condemn that doctrine which contains in it the only certain rule of faith Mr. S. may then see they were no such impertinent Topicks which I insisted on and as stout as Mr. S. seems to be I am apt to believe he would not look on the censure of the Inquisition as an impertinent Topick But at last Mr. S. offers at something whereby he would satisfie me of the sense of the Church as to this particular and therefore asks whether I never heard of such a thing as the Council of Trent I must ingenuously confess I have and seen more a great deal of it then I am satisfied with But what of that there he tells me I may find a clear solution of my doubt by the constant procedure of that most grave Synod in its definitions That is I hope to find that oral Tradition was acknowledged there as the only self-evident rule of faith if I do this I confess my self satisfied in this enquiry But how much to the contrary is there very obvious in the proceedings of it For in the 4. Session the Decree is That Scripture and tradition should be embraced with equal piety and reverence and the reason is because the doctrine of faith is contained partly in Scripture partly in tradition but what arts must Mr. S. use to inferr from hence that oral tradition in contradistinction to Scripture was looked on as the only rule of faith I cannot but say that the ruling men of that Council were men wise enough in their Generation and they were too wise wholly to exclude Scripture but because they knew that of it self could not serve their purposes they therefore help it out with tradition and make both together the compleat rule of faith Where I pray in all the proceedings of that Council doth Mr. S. find them desine any thing on the account of oral tradition instead of which we find continual bandyings about the sense of Scripture and Fathers which might have been all spared if they had been so wise as to consider they could not but know the sense of the present Church nor that of the precedent and so up to the time of Christ. But they were either so ignorant as not to light on this happy invention or so wise and knowing as to despise it It is true they would not have their doctrines looked on as Novelties therefore they speak much of tradition and the ancient faith but that was not by what their Parents taught them but what the Fathers of the Church delivered in their writings for by these they judged of traditions and not the oral way And therefore I see little reason to believe that this was either the sense of the Council of Trent or is the sense of any number of Roman Catholicks much less of the whole Church none excepted as Mr. S. in his confident way expresses it And if he will as he saith disavow the maintaining any point or affecting any way which is not assented to by all I hope to see Mr. S. retract this opinion and either fall in with the Court of Rome or return as reason leads him into the bosom of the Church of England But there seems to be somewhat more in what follows viz. that though schoolmen question the personal infallibility of the Pope or of the Roman Clergy nay of a General Council yet all affirm the infallibility of tradition or the living voice of the Church essential and this he faith is held by all held firmly and that it is absolutely infallible To this therefore I answer either Mr. S. means that none do affirm that the universal tradition of the Church essential can erre or that the Church of Rome being the Church essential cannot erre in her tradition But which way soever he takes it I shall easily shew how far it is from proving that he designs it for For if he take it in the first sense viz. that all the faithful in all ages could not concur in an error then he may as well prove Protestants of his mind as Papists for this is the foundation on which we believe the particular books of Scripture If this therefore proves any thing it proves more then he intends viz. that while we thus oppose each other we do perfectly agree together and truly so we do as much as they do among themselves But if Mr. S's meaning be that all of their Religion own the Roman Church to be the Church essential and on that account that it cannot erre setting aside the absurdity of the opinion it self I say from hence it doth not follow that they make orâ—l tradition the rule of faith because it is most evident that the ground why they say theiâ— Church cannot erre is not on Mr. S's principles but on the supposition of an infallible assistance which preserves that Church from error So that this fallâ— far short of proving that they are all agreed in this rule of faith which is a thing so far from probability that he might by the same argument prove that Scripture is owned by them all to be the rule of faith For I hope it is held by all and held firmly that the living voice of God in Scripture as delivered to us is infallible and if so then there is as much ground for this as the other But if we enquire what it is men make a rule of faith we must know not only that they believe tradition infallible but on what account they do so For if tradition be believed infallible barely on the account of a promise of infallibility to the present Church then the resolution of saith is not into the tradition but into that infallible assistance and consequently the rule of faith is not what bare tradition delivers but what that Church which cannot erre in judging tradition doth propose to us It is not therefore their being agreed in General that tradition is infallible doth make them agree in the same rule of faith but they must agree in the ground of that infallibility viz. that it depends on this that no age could conspire to deceive the next But all persons who understand any thing of the Roman Church know very well that the general reason why tradition is believed infallible is
like a Demonstrator First he supposes there never was any way used in the world but oral tradition and then strongly infers if I deny that I can know nothing But I can yet hardly perswade my self that the Fathers only sate in Chimney corners teaching their Children by word of mouth and charging them to be sure to do so to theirs but as they loved preserving the doctrine of faith they should have a great care never to write down a word of it But why I wonder should Mr. S. think that if I do not allow of â—ral tradition I must needs question whether there were any Fathers I had thought I might have known there had â—een Fathers by their Children I mean â—he Books they left behind them But if â—ll Mr. S. pleads for be only this that â—o books can be certainly conveyed â—ithout tradition he disputes withâ—ut an adversary but as I never opâ—ose this so I am sure it doth him lite service It is then from the books â—f the Fathers that I find what the sense â—f the Church of their age was and â—om thence I have shewed how vastly â—ifferent the opinions and practises of â—e Roman Church are from those of â—e Primitive Although then I may â—ot think my self obliged to believe â—ll that the present Church delivers for â—atter of faith yet I hope I may find â—hat the opinions and practise of the â—ormer Church were by the records â—hat are left of it And the reason â—hy I cannot think any one obliged â—o believe what every age of the â—hurch delivers is because I think no man obliged to believe contradictions and I see the opinions and practises of several ages apparently contrary to each other Well but I call this way a superficial subtilty and so I think it still so little have Mr. S's demonstrations wrought upon me But saith he is that which is wholly built on the nature of things superficial No but that which pretends to be so built may And of that nature I have shewed thiâ— way to be and not the former Buâ— that I may not think him Superficiaâ— as well as his way he puts a profound Question to me What do I think Controversie is and that he may the better let me know what it is he answers himself I deal plainly with you saith he you may take it to be an aâ— of talking and I think you do so though you will not profess it but I take it to be a noble science But to let him see that I will deal as plainly with him as he doth with me I will profess it that I not only think Controversie as usually managed but some mens way of demonstrating Mr. S. may easily know whom I mean to be a meer art of â—alking and nothing else But he takes â—t to be a noble science yes doubtless â—f Mr. S. manage it and he be the â—udge of it himself His meaning I â—uppose is by his following words â—hat be goes upon certain principles and â—e do not We have already seen how â—ertain his principles have been and I â—hould be somewhat ashamed of my â—eligion if I had no better But what â—ur rule of faith is hath been so amply â—iscoursed already by you and that in â—r S's clearing method that nothing â— left for me to do but to touch at â—hat remains and concludes this anâ—er I had the better to illustrate â—he weakness of that argument from â—ral tradition brought an instance in â—hat case parallel viz. that if one ages â—elivering to another would prove that â—e faith of Christ was in every age â—nalterable because no age did testifie â—ny such alteration to be in it by â—he same argument the world might be â—roved eternal because no age did â—ver testifie to another that the world â—as ever otherwise then it is So that â—f oral tradition were only to be relied on there could be no evidence given of the worlds being ever otherwise then it is and consequently the world must be believed to have been alwayes what we see it is This aâ— far as I can apprehend is a clear and distinct ratiocination and purposely designed to prove that we must admit oâ— other rules to judge of alterations iâ— the Church by besides oral tradition But Mr. S. in his own expression strangely roving from the mark I aimeâ— at professes there is not a tittle in iâ— parallel to his medium nay that he never saw in his life more absurdities coucheâ— in fewer words But I must take alâ— patiently from a man who still percheâ— on the specifical nature of things and never flags below the sphere of science Yet by his good leave he either apprehends not or wilfully mistakes my meaning for my argument doth noâ— proceed upon the belief of the worldâ— eternity which in his answer he runâ— wholly upon as far as eighthly and lastly but upon the evidence of oral tradition as to no discernable alteration in anâ— age of it For the Question between usâ— is whether in matters of alteration iâ— the faâ— or practice of the Church we are bound to rely only on the testimony of oral tradition so that if no age can be instanced in wherein any alteration was made and this delivered by that age then we are bound to believe there hath been no alteraration since Christ and the Apostles times now I say if this â—old good I will prove the world eternal by the same argument taking this for our principle that we are bound to rely only on oral tradition in the case originally derived from the matter of fact seen by those of the first age for that which never was otherwise then it is is eternal but we cannot know by oral tradition that the world ever was otherwise then it is for no age of the world can be instanced in wherein we have any testimony of any alteration that was in it Either then we must believe that the world ever was what it is i. e. Eternal or else we must say that we are not to rely barely on oral tradition in this case but we must judge whether the world were made or no by other mediums of Scripture and reason And this was all which I aimed at viz. to shew that where there is no evidence from oral tradition yet if there be Scripture and reason there is sufficient ground for our faith to stand upon And so I apply it to the present case though we could not prove barely from the tradition of any one age that there had been any alteration in the faith or practice of the Church yet if I can prove that there hath been such from Scripture and reason this is sufficient for me to believe it And now I dare appeal to the indifferent Reader â—ether thiâ— be so full of absurdities or it bâ— such a rambling Chimerical argumenâ— as he calls it no two pieces â— which hang together with themselves 〈◊〉 any thing else Which
more openly then this author does For he plainly confesses that his Catholick Gentleman went quite besides his business that he built upon indefensible principles that his theological ratiocination was indeed pretty but too weak to hold And are not we hugely too blame if we do not cry up such mighty Conquerors as these are Truly Sir I expect the very same answer should be returned to your book that Mr. S's argument is a pretty theological ratiocination and that your answer is not unwitty but though that way will not hold another will Thus when they are beaten off Infallibility they run to Tradition and when they are again beaten off Tradition then back again to Infallibility So that the short of all their answers is though such a one cannot defend our faith yet I can though I cannot yet the faiâ—â—s firm and constant still I wonder what their Superiors think of this â—ay of proceeding among them we â—hould imagine if they be so weak â—s they say themselves they had much â—etter keep them from appearing â—broad and exposing their cause so â—idiculously to contempt But it may â—e they think their faith is the betâ—er as well as their devotion for their â—gnorance and that it would be a â—ighty disparagement to their cause â—or such silly people to be able to deâ—end it It is enough for them to â—dmire it themselves and to say as â—heir common people use to do though â—hey cannot defend it yet there are â—ome that can And although it â—ay be no particular person can do â— yet their cause is able to defend â— self But for all that I can see by â—ck kind of answers the intention of â—hem is to intreat us not to triâ—mph over the weakness of their preâ—nt Writers but to wait till the â—ause it self thinks fit to write And when it doth so they may expect further answer but it were a greaâ— piece of cruelty for us to hasten theâ— ruine who fall so fast before us bâ— each others Pens FINIS ERRATA Page 16. l. 16. for that r. than p. 2â— l. 8. for errors r. concerns Books Printed for and Sold by Henry Mortlock at the Sign of the Phoenix in St. Pauls Church-yard near the little North door A Rational Account of the â—rounds of Protestant Religion being a Vindication of the Lord-Achbishop of Canterburyes Relation of a Conference c. from the pretended Answer by T. C. wherein the true Grounds of Faith are cleared and the false discovered the Church of England justified from the imputation of Schism and the most Important particular Controversies between us and those of the Church of Rome thoughly Examined by Edward Stillingfleeâ— B. D. Origines Sacrae or a Rational Account of the Grounds of Christian Faith as to the Truth and Divine Authority of the Scriptures and the matters therein contained by the sam Author The third Edition Correcteâ— and Amended Irenicum A Weapon-Salve for the Churches Wounds by the same Author Shecinah A Demonstration of the Divine Presence in Places of Religious Worship by J. Stillingfleet Rector of Beckingham in Lincolnshire The Moral Philosophy of the Stoicks Bain upon the Ephesians Knowledge and Practice or a plain Discourse of the chief things necessary to be known believed and practised in order to salvation by Saâ— Cradock B. D. The second Edition Corrected and Enlarged c. The Believers Duty towards the Spirit the Sprits Office towards Believers by H. H. B. D. §. 1. p. 236. p. 202. §. 2. p. 203. P. 204. § 3. §. 4. P. 205. §. 1. 5. §. 6. p. 203. §. 7. §. 8. p. 05. p. 206. P. 207. §. 9. p. 208. §. 10. De fide Thâ—ol tract 2 sect 22. p. 158. Ibid. P. 209. Tabul suffrag p. 318. §. 11. p. 210. §. 12. p. 211. p. 212. p. 213. p. 214. §. 13. p. 216. §. 14. p. 236. p. 217. p. 218. p. 223. §. 15. p. 224. Part. 1. chap. ◠§. 16. â— 229. c. p. 231. p. 234. p. 235. p. 236. P. 237. §. 17. p. 238. p. 239. §. 18. p 240. p. 241. p. 242. p. 243. §. 19. p. 244. p. 210. p. 2â—9