also by his instigation seemeth good to vs. That he did acknowledg infallibilitie in sincere approued Councells it is further manifest by that he held of the Popes iudgmeÌ„t If he thought the resolution of doubts in faith were to be made by him and that his decision was a truth so certaine that it could not be gainesaid he without question made no lesse esteeme of a generall and approued Councell wherein the Popes iudgment and determination is included and consequentlie when he questions or reiects the authoritie of Councells he meanes not those wherein the Pope defines or such as he approues and so not all that are vnder the name of generall but some onelie as hath beene said before Now that he had that estimation which I haue mentioned of the Popes iudgment and dedefinition it is manifest by the 47. Chapter where professedlie he doth vndertake to proue it bringing to this purpose manie testimonies out of S. Augustine S. Hierome Rufinus Origen the Bishops of Africk and others The title of the Chapter is Quod Papa habet ab antiquo potestatem insringibilem ad determinandum fidei veritates debellandum cancellandum omnes falsitates haereticas And in the verie nn Orthodoxi omnes ad iudices Christi currunt vicarios ordinatè requirunt vt tandem planam teneant veritatem Propter hoc enim vt verè credunt licet Doctores vltra eos Episcopos inter omnes mortales singillatim acceptos petere Papam cuius moderameÌ„ decisio pro irrefragabili vero tenebatur à Patribus Apud ipsum enim piè credebant totius fidei nostrae latere mysteria pectus eius imbutum butyro illo prophetico quo sciret reprobare malum eligere bonum Walden to 1. li. 2. c. 47. Nouit Hieronymus apud Papam Romanum authoritatem este ad emendandum fidem incongruam vel ad probandum Catholicam postquam à tanto Apostolatu haberetur vt recta sine dubio foret per null â—maltum violanda Ad eiusdem quoque Damasi Papa doctrinam tanquam ad infallibilem fidei regulam Catholici Episcopi illo tempore suos aduersarios haereticos coëgerunt Ibidem vbi etiam refert illud quod suprà dictum est ex Hier. de Sancti Marci Euangelio per Sanctum Petrum approbato beginning he saith Papae moderamen decisio pro irrefragabili vero tenebatur à Patribus the Popes direction and decision was by the Fathers marke that by the Fathers held for a truth which cannot be contradicted To the same purpose are manie things added in the next Chapter which is of the prerogatiue of perpetuall immunitie in the Church of Rome where amonge other things he saith that oo Propter hanc incorruptionem claritatem famosam omnes viri Catholici quantumcunque magni quantumlibet sancti simul authoritate territi magnae sedis ab hac susceperunt in dubijs fidei documenta terrifica cap. 48. all Catholick men how great how holie soeuer haue from that See receaued documents in doubts of faith and that it is as he speakes in the words of Cyrill stabilita inquassabiliter so established that it cannot be moued or shaken and more to the same purpose which in the additions you may reade So that I may leaue this as sufficientlie demonstrated out of his booke that you were mistaken in the sence of the words obiected Out of that which hath beene related from him it appeares also that I may leaue a note for such as vpon this occasion may chaunce hereafter to looke on him first that he puts diuers degrees of adhesion deuines expresse it by certitudo maior maior ex parte subiecti respectiuelie to verities diuerslie proposed Secondlie thar with him these proponents are infallible vizt the Church symbolicall that part of it which is now present including both Pastors and people a perfect and syncere generall Councell and the Church of Rome as it is head or the Pope defining Thirdlie that the Pope Councell and present Church when it will seeke the veritie of anie point of faith called into question or the authoritie of any writing or scripture to knowe whether it be diuine or no is to looke into the symbolicall Church which hath all the Christian lawe with the meaning written in her heart by the spirit of the liuing God and there to finde it not in euerie page of this greate booke not expressed in the faith of euerie part but in the booke And if after the search made it be proposed by the Pope in a generall Councell by the present Church receaued or by the Pope in Councell to the Church all are according to his principles to receaue and to beleeue it Fourthlie that the present Church finding and proposing the veritie and the symbolicall in whom she finds it beleeuing and testifying the same doe make vp one organ where by the holie Ghost the spirit of truth doth auouch it to the world Fiftlie that besides the authorities before mentioned all contained in the Church wherein our sauiour pp Ego vobiscum omnibus diebus Mat 28. qui loquitur in me Christus 2 Corim 13. Parecletum dabit vobis vt maneat vobiscum in aeteâ—nuÌ„ spiritum veritatis Ioh 14. In vobis erit Ibidem Non enim vos estis qui loquimini sed Spiritus Patris vestri qui loquitur in vobis Matt. 10. likewise and his spirit be there be in it also diuers other degrees of authoritie as of generall Councells not including the Popes approbation not by the Church or him disapproued of particular Churches especiallie qq Ecclesiarum Catholicarum inter quas sanê illae quae Apostolicas sedes habere epistolas accipere meruerunt c. S. Aug. 2. Doct. Chri. c. 8. such as the Apostles haue liued in and amongst them chieflie the Roman though considered with abstraction from the Popes authoritie by reason of the traditions left in her by the two great Apostles S. Peter and S. Paul of nationall or prouinciall Synods and the like all which according to this Author haue their waight though not the same with the Pope in Councell I omit to pleade further that Waldensis was at Constance in the Councell whereof I spake before treating of Cameracensis and passe vnto the next §. IV. 1. Panormitan the Lawier speakes of a Councell not approued by the Pope nor by the Church diffused which Councells the Question meddles not withall 2. It were possible he thinks for God considering his absolute power to conserue the true faith in one man or woman 3. Antoninus his mind touching Councells PVto tamen quod si Papa moueretur melioribus rationibus authoritatibus quà m Concilium quod standum esset sententiae suae Nam Concilium potest errare sicut aâ—ià s errauit super matrimonium contrahendum inter raptorem raptum Et infrà Nec obstat si dicatur quod Concilium Generale non potest
potest The Church because it relyeth not on reason but on the diuine authoritie prouidence and assistance and hath it infalliblie promised vnto her can in no sort or manner nullo modo determine besides the truth or erroneouslie or against God Whence it followes as before that if the Church doth applie her testimonie vnto any booke auouching and publikelie declaring it to be scripture or to any proposiâ—ion determining it to be a point of â—aith and proposing it vnto the world for such there can be accorâ—ing to this author no further queâ—tion made of it since the diuine â—rouidence doth so guide her that â—n such definitions she in no sort â—an iudge erroneouslie or determine â—esides the truth â— Neither is this integritie in deâ—â—nition violated or our sauiours promise of assistance broken if not in matter of diuine beleefe such as â—or the good of his Church God â—ath reuealed but in i Longè aliter se habent quaestiones istae quas esse praeâ—er fidem arbitratur Celestius quà m sunt illae in quibus â—lua fide qua Christiani sumus aut ignoratur quid verum 〈◊〉 sententia definitiua suspenditur aut aliter quam est â—umana infirma suspicione conijcitur Velâ—â—â— cum quaeâ—â—tur qualis vel vbi sit Paradâ—sus cum tamen esse illum â—aradisum fides Christiana non dubitet Vel cum quaeriâ—r vbi nunc sit Elias c. vel cùm quaeritur vtrum in corâ—ore vel extra corpus in terâ—ium caelum sit raptus Apoâ—olus c. vel quot sunt Caeli c. vel vtrum elementa â—undi huius conspicabilis quatuor an plura sint c. vbi â—otuit Methusalem viuere c. Quis non sentiat in his atâ—e huiusmodi varijs innumerabilibus quaestionibus sine ad â—bscurissima opera Dei siue ad Scripturarum abditissiâ—as latebras pertinentibus quas certo aliquo generâ— complecti ac definire difficile est multa ignorari salua Christiana fide alicubi errari sine aliquo haeretici dogmatis crimine S. Aug. li. 2. cont Pelag. Celest. c. 23. vide Canum li. 5. c. 5. qq 3. 4. 5. other questions which it hath not pleased him by reuelation to discouer as where is Elias where Paradice how many heauens c. not in definition and attestation but in some particular * It is one thing to argue out of reuealed principles and another thing to argue out of others Of this later kind of deduction I speake heere deduction and coniecture she doth inferre amisse Not euerie consequence orillation not euerie thing syllogisticallie inferd out of premises in matter of that nature hath infallibilitie according to this Author but the definitions and decrees all haue it If you knowe not yet the difference betwixt the one and the other you may reade him or Canus or looke vpon the Acts of the Councells where you may with litle studie discerne it If it be replied that in his fourth Controuersie he seemes to limit and contract the obiect of assistance to points onlie fundamentall excluding all other I answer that euen k Docendi infallibilitas in causa fidei Ecclesiae data taÌ„tummodo in illis fidei dogmatibus infallibiliter definiendis fideli populo ceâ—ta veritate tradeÌ„dis locum habet quae vel in coÌ„trouersiam vocantur vel alioqui ad publicaÌ„ Ecclesiae fidem necessariò pertinent Staplet fid doc li. 8. c. 15. Quando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertineÌ„t c. vel non ad publicum aliquod commune dogma explicandum quod vel omnes fideles explicitè crederè debent vel in publico religionis vsu versatur vel saltem maiores explicitè credere tenentur populus autem implicitè in maiorum fide sed ad priuatam alicuius c. Ibidem there he doth extend it to all points of faith which either are called into controuersie at any time wherein the Church is or otherwise doe necessarilie appertaine to the publike faith of the Church In which compasse is contained all that is in the Councell of Trent defined against you or in any other oecumenicall Councell proposed to be beleeued Your masters Luther Caluin and others called into question diuers things appertaining and intrinsecallie as parts to the substance or obiect of diuine faith and publike exercise of Religion as bookes of holie scripture iustification Sacraments and the Masse And therefore if according to Stapleton the Churches infallibilitie doth reach vnâ—â— all points of faith called into question it is according to the same tenet extended vnto these which he beleeued so to pertaine to faith But in questions that are impertineÌ„t or * Such as some aboue pag. 97. litter i. in marg indifferent or that appertaine onlie to the direction of some one that is weake in iudgment and in some priuate case or to the satisfaction of some proude mans curiositie to conclude in questions that appertaine to the explicatioÌ„ of those things which are appendices additions rather then contained in or appertaining to the substance of faith if the Church should mistake it were not he thinks any preiudice to the graunt of assistance or the promised infallibilitie not if in matter of this nature she should affirme or discoursing as a Diuine which in her examination of difficulties otherwhile she doth should inferre and logicallie l Vel asserendo vel etiam concludendo Ibidem conclude amisse But to make a publike decree of that which is false and propose it openlie to be beleeued of Christians as matter of faith that she cannot being in her publike decrees 〈◊〉 definition infallible as you heard him saie before And the same he hath proued at large both by Scripture and Theologicall reasons in diuers m Doc. fi li 8. c 12. 13 Relect. cont 3. q 4 cont 4. q. 2. alibi places of his booke §. IX 1. Saint Augustine will not haue any other bookes equalled with Scripture in authoritie 2. Other witnesses or testimonies of other nature then that of Scripture and not recommended by it or by the author of it wee be not obliged to in that manner as wee are obliged to beleeue the Scripture 3. The comparison of Scripture with other writings in authoritie His forbearing to presse an Arian with the authoritie of the Councell of Nice 4. The Donatists refusing to yeild vnto the authoritie of the whole Church Catholike and consequentlie of her Councells too and admitting Scripture he doth challeng them to shew there the decision of the Controuersie which was betwixt them and him 5. He did both auouch and relie vpon the authoritie of plenarie Councells esteeming them to be in their decrees of faith infallible What mending that is which he speakes of EGo solis eis Scriptorum qui iam caâ—onici appellantur didics hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum scribendo errasse audeam credere
intellecta vel à nobis S. Aug epist 111. Other bookes haue not in euerie part that infallibilitie other writers haue not such ample assistance as the Sacred writers had SI diuinarum scripturarum earum sc quae canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur perspicua firmatur authoritate sine vllae dubitatione credendum est Alijs verò testibus vel testimonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi credere vel non credere liceat quantum ea momenti ad faciendam fidem vel habere vel non habere perpenderis Baro p. 336. ex Aug. epist 112. 2. THe Second exception is that S. Augustine in an other place Epist 112. speakes not of writings only but of witnesses and leaues it as it is pretended in our choise whether wee will beleeue or not beleeue any but the Scripture Wherevnto I answer that he doth not either there or in any other place of his writings reiect all authoritie or testimonie that is other in your sence binding vs onlie to the scripture so as you pretend For it is manifest that he doth admit the testimonie of the Church as infallible esteeming it c S. August epist. 118. c. 5. most insolent madnes to contradict it yet the Church is not scripture To this purpose there be many places in him whereof I will cite one In his booke de Vnit. Eccl. disputing with an heretick about the Question of rebaptizing such as out of the Church had been baptized and vrging the custome of the Church which did receaue such as were penitent into communion without rebaptizing he makes this discourse d S. Aug. de vnit Eccles c. 19. If some wise man to whom our Lord Iesus giues testimonie should be consulted of vs in this Question wee ought no waies to doubt of doing or putting in execution what he tould vs least wee should be esteemed to repugne not so much him as our Lord Iesus Christ by whose testimonie he was commended now our Lord Iesus doth giue testimonie to his Church wherefore as that Church diffused thorough all Nations beginning at Hierusalem doth receaue such penitents so without all windings and tergiuersation thou art to be receaued And if thou wilt not thou doest most perniciouslie cōtrarie to thy owne saluation striue against not me or any mā but our Sauiour himselfe whilst thou wilt not beleeue that thou art so to be admitted as that Church which he whom not to beleeue thou doest confesse to be detestable commends with his testimonie doth admit The same is confirmed out of the Gospell wherein our blessed sauiour saith to his Apostles and Disciples and in them to the Church that they should beare e Matth. 24. Ioan. 15 testimonie of him yet the Apostles the Disciples the whole Church be not Scripture Againe f Luc. 10. he that heareth you heareth me saith our Sauiour he that contemneth you contemneth me There is therefore an authoritie aliue and distinct from the written word which wee must yeeld vnto by S. Augustine also confessed and consequentlie it is not in our choise to beleeue or contemne any but the scripture Nor were the primitiue Christians without obligation of beleeuing the Gospell proposed vnto them by the Apostles before it was written downe as you knowe by those words which immediatelie followe their commission g Marc. vlt. he that beleeueth not shall be condemned To the place obiected Supra pag 107. alijs testibus vel testmonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi creder◠vel non credere liceat quantum ea momenti c. Pag. 108. his words aboue cited doe suggest an easie answer as this Others not commended by this authoritie beleeue or not beleeue as you see cause but others commended by this authoritie you must beleeue as farre as by it they are warranted and commended Our Sauiour proued that those who beleeued Moyses and the Prophets and the Psalmes must beleeue him for of him they giue testimonie The like it is of the Church if you beleeue the Prophets you must beleeue the vniuersall Church for they giue testimonie of it and as S. Augustine saith more cleere then of our i S. Augu. Enarr in psal 30. conc 2. Sauiour himselfe One testimonie may warrant another and so they will become in a manner one He that obaieth the magistrate doth therein honour the Prince by whom he is put in authoritie And he that yeildeth all due reuerence to Princes doth therein a dutie vnto God who commands it Wee stoope to God when with all reuerence we receaue his word written or vnwritten and wee submit our selues to the written word or Scripture when wee listen to the Church which the Scripture doth commend When S. Augustine in his dispute with Cresconius about rebaptization was come this k S. Aug. li. 1. contra Cresco c. 31. 32. quia nec vos potestis proferre de Scripturis quarum nobis communis est authoritas ab haereticis venientem denuò baptizatum nec nos ita susceptum quantum ad hanc remattinet par nobis causa est Since neither you can produce out of Scriptures whose authoritie is common to vs one comming from Heretikes againe baptized nor wee one so receaued for as much as concernes this matter that is producing out the Scripture an example of the one or the other our cause is equall he shewes notwithstanding how euen in this point the Church in his time and he with it followed the most certaine authoritie of the Scripture l Ibidem c. 35. neque enim paruï momenti c. for it is not of small regard or moment that whe among the Bishops of the age precedent to the time when Donatus part or faction began to be this Question did wauer and had the different Opiniōs of compartners or collegues amongst themselues without breach of vnitie it was thought good that this which wee now maintaine should be obserued by the whole Catholike Church spred ouer all the world And a litle after wherefore though trulie there be not any example of this thing brought out of the canonicall Scriptures yet the truth of the same Scriptures is held of vs and euen in this thing when wee doe that which hath now seemed good to the vniuersall Church whom the authoritie of the same Scriptures doth commend that because the holie Scripture cannot deceaue whosoeuer feares to be deceaued with the obscuritie of this Question and of any other obscure Question pertaining to faith it is the same eandem Ecclesiam de illa consulat let him require in it the iudgment of the same Church which the holie Scripture without ambiguitie doth demonstrate There is yet a further Answer in the word Alijs You know that actions donne with ones owne hād by the motion of his owne spirit a man reputes not aliene but his owne So doth our B. Sauiour esteeme the actions of his mysticall bodie donne by the motion of his Spirit Settle
Docete Matt. vlt. This Catholikes do know they be grounded they take the secure way The way which you take is temerarious it is the same which Heresie doth vsuallie take to spred it self And in making choise of it you shew in your self the disposition of a Sectarie The Sectarie findes an opinion auouched by two or three against the common and against the Spirit of the Church generallie yet because it likes him for that it is easier to be conceaued or more agreeable to some phantasie that he hath or better suting to the libertie which he could wish he is coÌ„tent to â—hink the authoritie of those â—â—o or three though the â—â—st contradict sufficient to â—ake is probable and then iudâ—ng of the reasons and motiâ—es which they bring as his â—â—fections incline him he thinks 〈◊〉 at last certaine So did the â—rians depending vpon the â—uthoritie first of their leaâ—ers and then deeming their â—otiue as that pater maior me 〈◊〉 to be manifestlie against the Church and for them Neither be the Leaders themselues Arch-heretickes wiâ—â—out pretence of authoritie they cite the d Fortasse aliquisinterroget An Haeretici diuinae Scripturae testimonijs vtantur Vtuntur planè vehemeÌ„ter quidem nam videas eos volate per singulaquae que sanctae legis volumina per Moysi per Regum volumina per Psalmos per Apostolos per Euangelia per Prophetas Siue enim apud suos siue alienos siue priuatim siue publice siue in sermonibus siue in libris siue in conuiuijs siue in plateis nihil vnquam paenè de suo proferuÌ„t quod non etiam Scripturae verbâ—s adumbrare conentur Vinc. lirin c. 35. Si quis interroget queÌ„piam Haereâ—â—corum sibi talia persuadentem vnde probas vnde doces quod Ecclesiae Catholicae Vniuersalem antiquam fidem dimittere debeam Statim ille mille testimonia mille exempla mille authoritates parat de lege de psalmis de apostolis de prophetis quibus nouo malo more interpretatis ex arce Catholica in Haereseôs barathrum infoelix anima praecipitetur Idem c. 37. vbi ostendit eos à diabolo moduÌ„ istum didicisse Scriptum est enim Scriptures â—â—d gleane obscure speaches â—t of auncient good writers which in shewe do make for them When a man once takes this â—ay he squares out his Religion to himself or rather he runnes out of all from one thing to another from more to fewer points or articles from that he calls probable to lesse and yet lesse and lesse probable till at last is he findes himself most certainlie in Hell Faith is a firme assent but his if well examined is not so It is not diuine faith he doth but flatter himself and deceaue others with a shadow If two or three tell him thatâ— Councell may mistake though the rest auouch the contrarie he is content to think it may and heereupon presentlie doubts of all that is so defined Then further proceeding iâ— the same sillie motiue if thâ— whole Church auouch a thing yet so as some two or three at some time or other held thâ— contrarie he will not beleeâ—â— the Church neither No nor the Apostles if any tell him they might erre A Rainolds a Whittakers authoritie makes the contrarie to him probable and by that time he hath read their bookes he thinkes himself certaine of it But in the meane while where is the faith of such a man wherevnto doth he giue a firme assent To the Scriptures No their authoritie who denied them makes him doubt To the Creed nor so the authoritie of two or three serues his turne and there is nothing in the Creede that more then two or three haue not refused Arianisme Nestorianisme Sabellianisme Eutichianisme Pelagianisme Lutheranisme Swinglianisme all great Heresies haue had multitudes of abbetâ—ors whereas two or three serue his turne Where then is his religion in his mouth peraduenture but in his heart well examined there is none Others there be not so readie to relie indifferentlie vpon the Authoritie of any whatsoeuer esteemed learned but determined extreamelie vnto one The Puritan for example to Iohn Caluin whom he prefers before the rest all together Wherein he shewes himself as extrauagantlie peccant against the light of nature as the former AmoÌ„gst the many principes or Axiomes which reason dictates to the Prudent this is one that in matters of beleefe the greatest Authoritie must sway our vnderstanding He will not denie that this is true he might as well denie the sunne shines at middaie but his manner of proceeding doth inuolue a deniall of it The authoritie of a Councell entirelie oecumenicall is greater then the Authoritie of one single man The greatest â—chollers haue euer stooped to 〈◊〉 yet the Puritan rather beleeues Caluin then such a Councell Yea rather then all the knowne Churches in the world though e Though some now disseÌ„t as you for example yet these points haue had the consent of all Christian Churches as many as beleeued that our B. Sauiour had true flesh and blood consenting As in the matter of the Masse vnbloodie Sacrifice reall Presence And what way is there think you to deale with such a man or to what end is it to dispute with him If you cite Scripture he will rather take the comment of his Master Iohn then the definition and tradition howeuer auncient of the whole Church deliuering the sence of it It is so in the point of the Reall presence And in admitting the Bookes of Scripture too he will be his owne chooser and will iudge himself which is good and sound and which ought to be discarded Vide disput de Eccles pag. 304. But who shall decide the coÌ„trouersie betwixt the Church and him touching the meaning of that Scripture which he pleaseth to let passe for currant The Spirit no doubt But in whom in the Church or the vniuersitie of beleeuers before his time Not so They might erre he thinkes and so might all the Councells of Bishops that euer were and all the Pastors of the world though consenting they might all he thinks be deceaued Where then speakes the Iudge he meanes to stand to when the Controuersie is about the sence of Scripture or about the sinceritie of the letter in whom speakes the Spirit which he will permit to be his Master In Master Iohn So he beleeues rather theÌ„ he will beleeue that he speaketh in the Church Now tell me is not this a strange manner of proceeding in matters appertaining to our eternall estate to challeng to ones self or his Master Iohn authoritie to teach and interprete Scripture and to denie it to the whole Senate of Catholike Bishops and Pastors whom God hath giuen to teach diuine doctrine and to keepe the Church from wauering in such matters and not onlie to them Ephes 4 in what age soeuer but absolutelie to the Church without exempting the first Disciples and Apostles These for
to beleeue that a part is greater theÌ„ the whole The Authoritie of m England also before Caluin was borne beleeued the Sacrifice of the masse and offered it for the quick and the deade See the Prudentiall Ballance all NatioÌ„s Christian moues me more then the Authoritie of one n Other Protestants admit not your Confession onlie now deuided and apart Neither can I be perswaded that corpus doth signifie a signe or figure onlie or that bread properlie was crucified for my sinnes I am not wiser then heeretofore men haue beene not wiser then the Church I reuerence her decrees and am readie to be directed by her Whether those you pretend vnto were so too will appeare in the discussion of the Controuersie wee now deale â—n which doth concerne the generall Councells wherein she declares herself Of such Councels your fellowes haue questioned many things as first who hath power to call them secondlie what persoÌ„s are to be in them thirdlie who is to preside Fourthlie whether they be infallible in their decrees fiftlie which be such Councels The Controuersie wee are to speake of is none of these but onlie what learned men Catholikes haue deliuered taught about the infallibitie of a CouÌ„cell supposing it be intirelie oecumenicall which supposition being premised The four first your selues honour with the title of oecumenicall and it is confessedlie a possible supposition the Question is this Whether any Deuines of the Catholike communion haue openlie and to the knowledge of those to whom it appertained to looke vnto the Church auouched and maintained of Councels entirelie â—ecumenicall such as were generall â—nd approued that in decrees of Faith they might mistake and â—rre Wee dispute not you and 〈◊〉 now whether this or that Councell be such a Councell That is another matter Nor whether such a Councell supâ—ose it be and define be infalâ—ble But what men Cathoâ—ike Deuines haue auerred â—ouching the priuiledge of a Councell generall entire and â—pproued The termes of the Question â—e remarkable Councels not whatsoeuer but generall and â—pproued or entirelie oecumeâ—icall Deuines of the Catholike â—ommunion not Hereticks Wee know that Hereticks reâ—use entire approued Councels Matters of Faith not matters â—f Fact Auouched openlie the knowledge of the cause goes before the sentence of the iudge Your pretence is that some Deuines haue auouched their fallibilitie in matter and manner aboue specified in the Quaere Which if it were true that I note this by the way the tenet of their Infallibilitie would notwithstanding continue firme The Church doth not at all times punish what euer she doth abhorre and negligence of discipline in a Superiour is a distinct thing from the lawes or principles of a communitie Much lesse could it be ouerturned by their doubtfull speaches if any could be found and least of all by obscure passages Dark and hard speaches may be found in o Vide S. Hieron Apolog. adu Ruf. li. 2. Fieri potest vt vel certè antequam in Alexandria quasi daemonium meridianum Arius nasceretur innocenter quaedam minus cautè loqunâ—i sunt quae non possint peruersarum hominum calumniam declinare vide S. Aug. de Praedest Sanct. c. 14. Auncient Writers that seeme to make againsâ— such tenets of Religion as you call fundamentall and some Fathers haue doubted of some â—aue denied p Euseb Hist Eccles li. 3. c. 19. Origenes apud eundem li. 6. c. 19. S. Hieron de Script Eccles in Ep. ad Dard. Bilson Suru p. 664. See the Disp pag. 431. bookes of Scriâ—ture which all now beleeue â—o be Canonicall wherefore if 〈◊〉 this matter of Councels-auâ—â—oritie the like should haue â—appened the tenet of Assistanâ—e giuen to them in their deâ—rees of faith being grounded 〈◊〉 Scripture and hauing for it 〈◊〉 more euident perpetuall tradiâ—â—on then you can shew for diâ—ers parts of Scripture which â—ou do beleeue to be diuine â—ere still euen by you in like â—anner to be admitted and â—aintained vnles you think it â—wfull to reiect those Books alâ—â— because once doubted of or â—enied and neuer to beleeue â—at which might with a preâ—nce of authoritie be oppoâ—â—d or contradicted Thus I could answer and â—are the labour to talke further of the matter Vide S. Aug. li. 2. contra Donat. c. 5. but becausâ— you wrong some that be leaâ—ned worthie Authors and some Fathers too least you finâ— adherents that will beleeuâ— you to the preiudice of theâ—selues and others vpon yoâ— bare word when they sâ—â— none contradict and confuâ— that you boast of I will suruâ—â— the citations Our dispute in this matteâ— is to be of Catholikes it is as bâ—fore was noted impertineâ—â— to talke of others and of sucâ— as in plaine termes haue auouchâ— and maintained what you prâ—tend they did Wee know thâ— some haue beene mistaken 〈◊〉 great matters and yet contâ—nued in the Church either bâ—cause the thing was not suffâ—cientlie brought to light 〈◊〉 matters appertaining to diuinâ— faith be not at all times equaâ—lie proposed or because they were readie to submit themselues As in the QuestioÌ„s of the Canon of Scripture of Baptisme giuen by Hereticks c. and conforme their iudgment as soone as the Church declared her self Wee know â—oo that diuers haue beene tempted in their faith and of these some haue falne into Heresie or Atheisme wherof we haue examples in Luthers preach and before in all ages â—uen the primitiue Others haâ—e discouered their temptaâ—ions with all the motions of â—heir vnderstanding to and â—ro concealing onlie the finall â—esolution or euent Of which â—nfirmitie some and not wiâ—hout scandall haue exhibited â—hemselues by their writings â—ublicke spectacles to the â—orld With those you and 〈◊〉 need not meddle being to â—peake of such onlie if any can â—e found as haue openlie denied the infallibilitie aboue specified and yet enioyed the communion of the Church notwithstanding such a knowne deniall She doth not thrust out of her communion one who doth onlie propose his doubtes to be resolued nor yet if by way of disputation he venters to far but without auouching especiallie when this is donne with submission to her iudgment or if he so conceale his mind or vtter himself so that nothing can be directlie proued against him Secret and concealed thoughts she cannot look into Euerie one is to be presumed good vnles the contrarie may be proued As many as haue exteriorlie communicated with the Church are lawfullie presumed to haue receaued her tenets vnles it be made appeare otherwise Though it be true that some who liue amongst vs oâ—herwhile be not of vs. Some â—o beare themselues for Caâ—holikes who be in their hearâ—es Atheistes or Heretikes There be no doubt Ipse Satanas transfigurat se in Angelum lucis Non est ergo magnum si ministri eius transfigurentur velut ministri iustitia 2. Corint 11. Nonne ego vos duodecim elegi ex vobis vnus diabolus est Ioan. 6.
manâ—d and the parts such as be reâ—rsed are ill putt together so that 〈◊〉 intent and meaning cannot be â—ceaued as the learned reader â—y obserue by looking on his â—rds related in the p addition q Etsi lex naturae certissima est quam geâ—t homines scriptam in cordibus suis vt refert Apost â— 1. multo magis lex Christi habet certissimum interâ—amentum suum in cordibus fidelium succedentium sibi 〈◊〉 ab initio nascentis Ecclesiae temporibus Apostolorum vsâ—in sempiternum secundum quod per Prophetam dicit â—minus hoc testamentum quod testabor ad illos dando leges â—s in cordibus eorum in sensibus eorum scribam eas Quod â—onens Ambrosius ô verè inquit testator aeternus qui â—ris in cordibus leges affigit suas scribit in sensibus â—ihil aliud cogitare nisi diuina praecepta possimus 〈◊〉 aliud sentire nisi Dei oracula debeamus Walden li. â— 8 and continuing his discourse Haec est saies he Eccleâ—â—ymbolica Ecclesia Christi inquam Catholica Apostoâ—â—mater credentium populorum quae fidem habet indefect biâ— â—ecundum promissum Christi ad Petrum qui tunc fiâ—m gessit Ecclesiae Ego rogaui pro te Petre vt non deficiat â—tua Non est ergo specialis Ecclesia non Africana vt â—atus dixit Nec vtique particularis illa Romana sed â—ersalis Ecclesia non quidem in generali synodo conâ—ata quam aliquotiens errasse percepimus velut illa â—ninensis congregata sub Tauro praefecto illa Conâ—inopolitana sub Iustiniano minore tempore Sergij Papae secundum Bedam quaedam aliae sed est Ecclesiaâ— Christi Catholica per totum mundum dispersa à baptismo Christi per Apostolos caeteros successores eorum aâ— haec tempora deuoluta quae vtique veram fidem continet testimonium Christi fidele sapientiam praestaâ— paruulis inter extremos errores stabilem retinens veritatem c. 19. in principio That others also may conceaue the same it is to be obserued that Waldensis is disputing there against Wickleff about the Church which is the Creed wee professe to beleeue and is therefore by him called thâ— Church symbolicall Wickleff considering that the faith of it is to be indeficient it being still true to saie there is such a Church or congregation would haue it to be the r Quod Ecclesia nostra symboliba est Ecclesia Catholica Titulus Cap. 17. li. 2. Mugit acriter wickleffus contra Papam Pastores Ecclesiae sub titulo iustae appâ—lationis Ecclesiae Christi quae est obiectum fidei Christâ—nae de qua articulus est in symbolo Credo Sanctam Ecclesiam Catholicam Difficultas autem eius est ista Quanâ— credere debemus Ecclesiam Sanctam Catholicam taâ—quam fidem iterum credere debemus quòd quodliâ— membrum istius Ecclesiae sit praedestinatum ad gloriam credere debemus quod iste Papa vel Episcopus sit meâ—brum Ecclesiae credere debemus quod repugnat ipsum peccatum finalis impoenitentiae cadere Haec Wicklef Actor Sub hoc globo verborum vnà cum praesumpto sâ—â— Ecclesia symbolica c. Initium capitis 17. Prima ergo diâ—cultas de quidditate huius Ecclesia symbolicae quam vtiâ— credere debemus c. Ibidem Predestinate onlie who do finallie perseuer in the faith Waldensis ouer and aboue an indeficiencie doth auouch and according to Scripture Matt. vlt. Luc. 10. Ioan. 15. 21. Act. 20. Cor. 1.12 Ephes 4. c. that it is to teach and giue testimonie of the truth in that sort that all may learne of it And therefore it is to be a visible Congregation * Ecclesia est fidelium congregatio It inuolues à Hierarchie Ephes 4 Who told Wickleff that all the beleeuers the predestinated only excepted do fall from the faith before they die or Societie Hierachicallie disposed Whence he determines it to be according to the words of the Creed it self the Catholike or Vniuersall Church that is the wholeranke or companie of the faithfull people successiuelie descending from the first assemblie made by Christ in the bank of Iordan vntill our times and from henceforth vntill the end of the world and reaching into all partes of the world wheresoeuer the shining testimonie of the faith of Christ the head and author is kindled Ibidem In which description by him there proued out of scripture and confirmed by the testimonie of S. Augustine he hath comprehended a two-fold vniuersalitie one loci of place another temporis of time as is more distinctlie there specified in the same chapter by himselfe And the benefit of this vniuersalitie heâ— saith is vt t sciamus discretè quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia veramque habenâ— doctrinam fidei that wee may knowe distinctlie as a communitie so vniuersall is found easilie which is the true Church of Christ and hauing the true doctrine of faith Heresies are limited as he shewes for time and place but the Symbolicall Church is both waies vniuersall And to it when heresies arise u Ad hanc Ecclesiamergo quae per totum muÌ„dum vnam habet doctrinaÌ„ Apostolicam omnes fideles intonante noua haeresi debent habere recursum ipsi enim Apostoli cuÌ„ vna sana doctrina adhuc manente imbuerunt totam Ecclesiam ob hoc tota Ecclesia Catholica etiam Apostolica nominatur Walden c. 18. fideles omnes debeâ— habere recursum all faithfull must haue recourse as he saith in the next Chapter The reason is because she hath x c. 18. vt suprà ad lit q. in her heart the Gospell written by the holie Ghost together with a most certaine interpretation of the Christian lawe and also giues y Addit adhuc Ecclesia symbolica id est quam tenemâ— in dubijs credere sub poenae perfidiae addit enim Ecclesiâ— sic dictae communiter id est communi rationi Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 omnibus Ecclesijs abstracta rationem vnius fidelis induâ—bitantis testimonij hoc ratione qua est vna Sic enim â—credimus vnam sanctam Ecclesiam non quidem gente vel patria sed professione vnam fide de qua fide vnicum â—cunctis gentibus reddit testimonium cap. 18. Nam hoc est credere Ecclesiam Catholicam credere eam habere veram â—fidem de Deo vera Sacramenta Ibidem Ratione ergo qua Ecclesia est obiectum fidei Christianae sic facit testimonium abundanter de Christo cuilibet eam vel secundum eam credenti Ibidem Definita veritas antequam habeatur pro definita plus exigit sc vltra authoritatem Scripturae Spiritus sancti reuelationem fidem in dictis assumentis quod non extorqueat industriam quod per elusionem non seducatur aut non fingat hoc ipsum est quod sponsus ille Ecclesiae sponsae reliquit in dotem
and this custome onlie was opposed to those which endeuoured to bring in that noueltie of rebaptization because they could not apprehend the truth yet afterwards whilst amongst many on both sides it is spoken of and sought it is not only sound out but also brought to the authoritie and strength of a generall Councell after Cyprians passion indeed but afore wee were borne And a litle after the words obiected gg c. 4. Neither durst wee affirme any such thing if wee were not well grounded vpon the most consenting or agreeable authoritie of the vniuersall Church vnto which vndoubtedlie he S. Cyprian would haue yeelded if as then the truth of this question being cleered and declared had been established by a generall Councell Hence it followes first that he did acknowledge in generall Councells authoritie to determine controuersies and this controuersie particularlie of rebaptization which you hh Error de rebaptizatione hereticorum qui certè fundamentalis â—o fuâ—â— noâ—dum erat in concilio plenario damnatus c. Baro p. 348. confesse was not in a matter fundamentall and that therein the truth was established by authoritie not of scripture this matter was not so resolued but of the world in a Councell and so farre established that all were to beleeue it and remotis dubitationibus without as much as doubting of it Whence it comes secondlie that to resist such a decree it is diabolicall which word he doth vse vppon another occasion and that such as maintaine the contrarie are indeed heretikes Thirdlie it is to be repeated which hath been said oft before that though wee maintaine the infallibilitie of sincere and approued generall Councells in their decrees of faith yet wee doe not beleeue that their infallibilitie is extended vnto all they write or speake and in all kinde of matter as not equallizing their acts with bookes of Scripture and consequentlie there may be something in such a Councell sometime that may need mending Neither yet doe wee maintaine or beleeue that all Councells which goe vnder the name of generall haue infallibilitie in their decrees some haue as those which are approued some haue not and these later may need mending euen in the decree they make touching faith Moreouer though the Councell that is plenarie and approued cannot commaund a vice or condemne vertue by decree yet may it commaund that which after may proue inconuenient or forbid what after may be admitted when circumstances are changed And if a lawe which at first was well made the circumstances of time and persons being afterwards other then they were before and notablie changed become inconuenient and consequentlie not good in these circumstances though good in it selfe and in other circumstances such as those were wherein it was first made it may be changed by power equall to that which made it The Apostles by decree did forbid the eating of suffocata things strangled yet afterwards when the circumstances were charged and feare of scandall quite remoued the Church began to doe the contrarie To frequent the ceremonies of the lawe now it were a Sinne peccaret mortalitersi quis nunc ceremonias obscruaret S. Tho. 1.2 q. 103. a. 4. though you knowe by what authoritie for the time they were commaunded If you be sick physick is good if you be well the same is bad for you The same thing may be conuenient and inconuenient good and bad in diuers circumstances When the common-wealth is distempered a lawe may be necessarie and at other times not vsefull yea inconuenient and therefore to be annulled And the common-wealth in anulling of it mends her Statute-booke respectiuelie to these later circumstances though when she made it first she did not commit a fault Fourthlie it is to be noted that by the doctrine of S. Augustine before deliuered there be some kinde of Councells which in their decrees of faith are not to be mended nor to be doubted of that it is hereticall to oppose them and consequentlie that they haue nor exteriour onlie but interiour obedience also remotis dubitationibus due to such their decrees which being manifest in him you labour in vaine to be extend his words obiected vnto all which were to make him contradict both the truth and the Church of his time and himselfe He saith and wee too that some generall Councells may be mended when by tryall or experiment that is opened which was shut vp and knowne which before was vnknowne but some generall Councells cannot be mended no nor questioned or doubted of in their decrees touching faith Now to your obiections in particular First you saie that he speakes of mending in matter of faith I answer that those words in matter of faith be your addition He speakes indeed of mending in such matters as by triall or experiment may be knowne but diuine verities which are the obiect of our faith be not of this nature Neither if there had been expressed in that clause which is of generall Councels matters of faith were you able to conclude any thing against vs for wee graunt that some which beare the name may be mended in that also Of all wee cannot graunt it without contradicting S. Augustine and making him withall to contradict himselfe Secondlie you saie that his scope or intention was to distinguish the authoritie of Scripture from all other authoritie wherefore since no generall Councell whatsoeuer is Scripture he meanes them all and will haue all subiect vnto mending I answer that he intended to satisfie three things obiected 1. S. Cyprians sentence or example 2. S. Cyprians writings 3. S. Cyprians Councell The comparison of Scripture is with writings and it is a part of his answer to the Second point as I haue related it And it is true that this writing hath the prerogatiue aboue all writings vide suprà pag. 130. pag. 106. marg that nothing at all can be questioned which it affirmes To S. Cyprians Epistles or any other mans wee owe not that seruice or honour Of Councels he speakes afterwards in the third place and you knowe that it is not essentiall to their decrees to be written There is also great difference betwixt Councells and the Scripture in infallibilitie as hath been showne many times although the decrees in faith of such as are approued are infallible But if you will haue him aime at this that all generall Councels whatsoeuer may be mended and in their decrees of faith you make him as before was obserued to contradict himselfe For these are contradictorie some may not as that of Nice and all may Moreouer by that saepè it is manifest that his speach is not generall as you would haue it saepè is short of Semper And the qualification which he doth vse is another argument of the same Thirdlie you saie that vnles S. Augustine speake in the words principallie obiected of amendment in matter of faith he leaues vnanswered the Donatists obiection But neither will this make any thing to your
Ecclesiae c. 19. example of it Shall the matter then rest and the Donatists against the custome and practize of the Church obtaine the cause There is yet a remedie and this is to call a Councell from all parts of the world and there by the promised assistance to decide it Which was done accordinglie and in the heart of the Church symbolicall the booke wherein Christian Religion is written by the spirit of the liuing God it was found and brought to light and proposed And to this iudgment all Catholikes afterward did subscribe and S. Cyprian also who in his time thought the other more probable would if wee beleeue Saint Augustine most willinglie haue donne and such as would not hauing notice of it were and are accounted Heretikes 2. Hence that I note this by the way wee take an Argument against you to proue by the iudgment of Antiquitie two things 1. that the Church can propose and oblige vs to beleeue that which she hath receaued onlie by word of mouth 2. that our Sauiour did not limit his promised Assistance to fundamentalls onlie Not onlie to fundamentals nor onlie to the written word Wee haue I saie in these two things the iudgment of the Church which was in and before Saint Augustines daies against you They did inquire diligentlie what had beene taught formerlie what tradition had been left in the Church by those who first planted Religion in it they made recourse to the fountaine Which kind of proceeding for the resolution of difficulties had beene commended to them from the f Quid enim si de aliqua modica quaestione disceptatio esset noÌ„ne oporteret in antiquissimas recurrere Ecclesias in quibus Apostoli conuersati sunt ab ijs de praesenti quaestione sumere quod certum reliquidum est Quid autem si neque Apostoli quidem Scripturas reliquissent nobis nonne oportebat ordinem sequi Traditionis quam tradiderunt ijs quibus committebant Ecclesias cuâ—â—ordinationi assentiunt multae gentes Barbarorum eorum qui in Christum credunt sinc charactere vel atramento scriptam habentes per Spiritum in cordibus suis salutem veterem traditionem diligenter custodientes c. S. Irenaeus adu Haeres li 3. c 4. cuius capitis initio Non oportet inquit adhuc quaerere apud alios veritatem cùm Apostoli quasi in depositorium diues plenissimè in ea Ecclesia contulerint omnia quae sint veritatis vti omnis quicunque velit sumat ex ea potum vitae Et Optatus in hanc sententiam Nam fontem inquit constat vnam esse de dotibus vnde Haeretici non possunt vel ipsi bibere vel alios potare ita li. 2. Caeterùm lege in Irenaeo c. 3. li. 3. vbi de traditione praeclarè disserit In compendio est apud religiosas simplices mentes errorem deponere inuenire atque cruere veritatem Nam si ad diuinae Traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat error humanus sacramentorum coelestium ratione perspecta quicquid sub caligine ac nube tenebrarum obscurum latebat in lucem veritatis aperitur Si canalis aquam ducens qui copiosè priùs largiter profluebat subitò deficiat nonne ad fontem pergitur vt illic defectionis ratio noscatur vtrumne arescentibus venis in capite vnda siccauerit siccata sit an verò integra inde plena procurrens in medio itinere destiterit vt si vitio interrupti aut bibuli canalis effectum est quo minus aqua continua perseueranter ac iugiter flueret refecto confirmato canali ad vsum atque potum ciuitatis aqua collecta eadem vbertate atque integritate representetur qua de fonte proficiscitur Quod nunc facere oportet Dei Sacerdotes praecepta diuina seruantes vt si aliquo nutauerit vacillauerit veritas ad originem Dominicam Euangelicam Apostolicam Traditionem reuertamur inde surgat actus nostri ratio vnde ordo origo surrexit S. Cyprianus Epist 74 ad Pompeium De qua ep vide S. Aug li. 5. contra Donat. c. 23 25. Vide etiam de modo veritatem inuestigandi Tertullianum lib. de Praescript c. 19. 20. 21. c. beginning and was in after-ages still approued as appeares by the * See the Tomes of Councels practice of the Church vpoÌ„ all occasions of importance §. XI Saint Athanasius esteemed it a vaine thing for those who would not stand vnto the Nicene decree to call for Councels He did esteeme the decree of it infallible Of diuers infallible Authorities one may he more powerfull and commaunding then another FRustra igitur circumcursitantes praetexerunt ob fidem se Synodos postulare cum sit diuina Scriptura omnibus potentior Quod si ad hanc rem vsus Synodi desideratur supersunt acta patrum nam neque in hac parte negligentes fuere qui Niceae conuenerunt sed ita accuratè scripserunt vt qui sinceriter eorum scripta legat facilè reminiscatur eius in Christum religionis quae à sacris literis annunciatur Baro. p. 327. ex Athanasio S. ATHANASIVS was at the Councell of Nice where the Arian heresie was anathematized and the Catholike faith established yet he is also brought against the authoritie of all generall Councells first because he tels the Arians who would not staÌ„d to the iudgmeÌ„t of that CouÌ„cell which was oecumenicall and yet cried out for Councells that in vaine they runne about the world pretending they required Councells for the faith whereas the diuine scripture is more powerfull then all Secondlie because he saith that who so reades the writings or acts of the Nicene fathers they will easilie call to minde that Religion which is showed in holie scripture I am not yet so learned as to conceaue how the infallibilitie of CouÌ„cels is any waie contradicted in these words so farre I am from thinking that this great Saint did forget himselfe and vndoe what with others he before had donne The decree of the Nicene Councell together with the Acts did so bring to minde the faith commended in the scripture that withall it had force he saith enough to a Quis vsus quaeso Conciliorum quum Nicaenum CoÌ„cilium aduersus Arianam caeterasque haereses satis valeat S. Athanas de Synodis Indecens nefarium aliquid ex rectè iustè decretis ex rebus Niceae publicè cum illustrissimo principe Constantino patre tuo per accuratam deliberationem constitutis immutare velle c. per quam Synodum non illa sola sed reliquae haereses sublatae sunt in qua certè addere aliquid temerarium est auferre periculosum Ibidem epist Synod ad Constantium August â—ufficiunt ea quae Niceae confessa fuere satisque per se viâ—um habent tum ad subuersionem impij dogmatis tum ad â—telam vtilitatemque
Ecclesiasticae doctrinae Idem in Eâ—st ad Episc Africae ouerthrowe the coÌ„trarie and to put the matter b Ego arbitrabar omniuÌ„ quotquot vnquaÌ„ fuere haereticorum inanem garrulitateÌ„ Nicaeno Concilio sedatam esse naÌ„ fides quae inibi a Patribus secuÌ„duÌ„ sacras Scripturas tradita confessionibus confirmata est satis mihi idonea efficax que videbatur ad omnem impietatem euertendam pietatem eius quae in Christo est fidei constituendaÌ„ Atque ideo diuersis Concilijs per GalliaÌ„ Hispanias Romae celebratis omnes qui in eo conuentu fuere istos luci fugas qui sese etiamnum occultant quae Arrij sunt sapiunt commâ— calculo vnius Spiritus incitatu anathemate percusserunt eâ— quod isti sibi nomina vendicauerint Synodorum c. 〈◊〉 Athanas Epist ad Epictet Qua igitur audacia fit vt post tanti Concilij authoritatem disceptationes aut quaestiones infâ—tuant Ibidem out 〈◊〉 question and so farre that who 〈◊〉 did oppose themselues were c Ego autem demiratus sum tuam pietatem haec sustinuisse quod non simul istos compescuerit piamâ—dem in Concilio Nicaeno traditam vt suprà illis proposâ—erit vt ijs auditis vel in quietem se darent vel si inquieti intradicerent haeretici homines iudicarentur Ibidem â—ereticks It was a vaine thing so he steemed it in the Arians by other CouÌ„cells to seek to reuerse what was â—â—ere established the definition of â—â—e holie Ghost there made the word â—f God by that Councell remaines foâ—uer d Vanus eorum labor qui contra illud Nicenum aliâ— subinde concilia moliuntur quippe qui plusquam decem synodos iam instituerint in singulis semper aliquid innouantes c. ignari interim omnem plantationem quaâ— non plantauerit pater caelestis cradicandam esse verbâ—â— autem illud Domini per oecumenicam Niceae Synodum in aternum manet S Athanas Epist. ad Episc Africae verbum illud Domini per â—licaenum Concilium manet in aeterâ—um As for the comparison which he â—akes with scripture it e Catholici Scripturam Sacram non subijciunt sed anteponunt Concilijs neque in hoc vlla controuersia esâ— Bellarm. li. 2. de Concilijs c. 12. Quod si interdum aliqâ— Catholici dicunt Scripturam pendere ab Ecclesia siue 〈◊〉 Concilio non intelligunt quoad authoritatem secundum se sed quoad explicationem quoad nos Ibidem hurteth â—ot He that saith the scripture where it is plaine and vniuersallie â—eceaued is more powerfull then a Councell or that the eternall veâ—tie opeÌ„lie reuealed as it is to Saints 〈◊〉 more powerfull then scripture â—oth not preiudice infallibilitie Both â—ay haue it and yet one be more â—owerfull And this supposed visit â—hat both scripture and the Counâ—ell be infallible but the power of cripture more the discourse of S. Athanasius is conuincing He thaâ— will not submit his iudgment to thaâ— authoritie which is most powerfull doth in vaine pretend he will be ruled by the lesse he doth easilie contemne a Councell who contemneâ— the Scripture proposed by the vniuersall Church as the Arians did who contradicted open Scripture and all Antiquitie Neither doth this make any thing against the decision of controuersies by Councells for though the waie of Councells be a certaine waie to determine what wee must beleeue yet may there be another way to finde it out and that certaine too And doubtles he that seeth in scripture that which he knowes the whole symbolicall Church that which holds out the booke wherein â—he reades it doth beleeue is more powerfullie moued to giue assent then he that heares a Councell onâ—ie And our assent is more proue when the Prophets and Apostles all propose the same then when one alone doth auouch it though one Prophet or Apostle by himselfe be sufficient and infallible §. XII Vincentius Lirinensis will haue Church-authoritie relied vpon in matter of faith as certaine and vndoubted How a man is to carrie himself when matter of faith is questioned The way to finde the Catholike sence Generall Councels infallible in their decrees and those are Hereticks that contradict and oppose them SAepe magno studio summa attentione perquirens à quaplurimis sanctitate doctrina praestantibus viris quonam modo possim certa quadam quasi generali ac regulari viâ— Catholicae fidei veritatem ab haereticae prauitatis falsitate discâ—nere huiusmodi semper responsum ab omnibus ferèretuli Quoâ— siue ego siue quis alius vellet exurgentium hereticorum fraâ—des deprehendere laqueosque vitare in fide sanus atque integer permanere duplici modo munire fidem suam Domino adiouante deberet Primò scilicet diuinae legis authoritate tuâ— deinde Ecclesiae Catholicae traditione Baro p. 349. ex vincent Lycin c. 1. VINCENTIVS LIRINENSIS The argument taken from this Father is that in his golden treatise entitled Aduersus prophanas haereseô◠nouationes he hath omitted to specifie generall Councells and their decrees and diuers leaues are spent tâ— proue that he did not giue vnto them any place in the direction of our beleefe But no paines will serue Hâ— doth more then once or twice mention them and hath testified whaâ— he thought of their authoritie Two generall a Vicent Lyrin c. 1. waies there are to distinguish the truth from errour in matâ—er of Religion the one by Scripture â—he other by Tradition but the scripture is profound and obscure wheâ—evpon it hath come to passe that diuers heretikes haue interpreted it â—iuers waies so that to knowe the â—ight meaning of it it is necessarie â—o recurre to tradition and as he â—aith in the second chapter of his booke b Idem c. 2. vide Disp li. 5. c 1. li. 4. c. 8. pag. 405. pag. 395 fine that the line of the propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Ecclesiasticall and Catholike sence Which Catholik sence may be found three waies chieflie according as he conceaues it one is to see if it be held by the symbolicall or vniuersall Church a second is to see if it be held by the Fathers each writing in his owne time a third to see whether it be defined in any generall Councell By these three waies principallie a man is directed to the Catholik or true sence of scripture and all three are not necessarie but any of the three will serue the turne c Vâ—iâ—nt c. â— In the Catholik Church saith he wee must haue a great care wee hold that which hath bene beleeued euery where that which hath been beleeued euer that which hath been beleeued by all for this is truelie and properlie Catholick as the power of the name and the definition doth declare which truelie doth comprehend all vniuersallie And this is donne in fine if we follow vniuersalitie antiquitie consent Vniuersalitie wee shall follow
quâ—d antiquitus abomnibus Ecclesiae Catholicae Sacerdotibus vniuersalis Concilij authoritate decretum Deinde si qua noua c. c. 41. ExeÌ„pluÌ„ adhibuimus SaÌ„cti CoÌ„ciliâ— quod antè trienmum fermè in Asia apud Ephesum celebratum est c. Vniuersis Sacerdotibus qui illò ducenti feré conuenerant c. omnes verò Catholicos sacerdotes fuisse c. c. 42. Wee haue said that in the antiquitie of the Church two things are greatlie and with greate diligence to be obserued quibus wherevnto all those must adhere steedfastlie that will not be hereticks why do you start first of all if any thing should be auncientlie defined with the authoritie of an oecumenicall Councell by all the Priests of the Catholick Church and next if any new question should arise wherein that were not found recourse to be made to the opinions or sentences of holie Fathers those onelie who euerie one in their owne time and place were found to be approued masters continuing still in the vnitie of communion and faith and what soeuer they be found to haue held with one and the same meaning and consent that without all scruple should be iudged the true and Catholike doctrine of the Church Here besides the faith and profession of the Church symbolicall or vniuersall be two other rules wherevnto all that will not be flat heretiks must of necessitie conforme themselues the decrees of oecumenicall Councells and the vniforme consent of Fathers I leaue you now to compare your condition with his opinion What he deliuers in this matter is not his doctrine alone c. 1. That you conceaue him the better he presentlie brings for instance or example the proceedings of the Councell of Ephesus held l c. 42. three yeares no more before he wrote this booke wherein Nestorius was condemned the anathematismes of the Councell you may see when you please It is worth the noting by the way for it is your practise too and indeed of all hereticks that Nestorius as he relates in the end of the chapter renounced the authoritie of the Church in deciding controuersies affirming m c. 43. totam etiam nunc errare semper errasse Ecclesiam that the whole Church euen now in the time of the Councell doth erre and alwaies hath erred In the last chapter of all he brings in the authoritie of the See Apostolike and in fine concludes his booke If neither Apostolicall definitions nor Ecclesiasticall decrees whereby according to the sacred consent of vniuersalitie and antiquitie all Heretikes euer and in fine Pelagius Caelestius Nestorius haue been deseruedlie condemned be to be violated it is necessarie verilie that all Catholikes hereafter which haue a care to shewe themselues lawfull children of the mother-Church be associated and close ioyned vnto the faith of the holie Fathers and so insist that they die in it and that they detest abhorre speake against persecute the prophane nouelties of prophane men §. XIII Exceptions against a text or two refuted THE last Opposition which you make is against two of the places of Scripture which our Deuines bring to confirme the Councels infallibilitie These also least you conceaue there is difficultie I will consider as farre as your Opposition goes though otherwise not meddling with the Question de Iure which you finde in our Deuines discussed at large and then make an end The one of these places containes our Sauiours promise of the Holie Ghosts assistance made vnto the Church The Spirit of Truth when he comes shall teach you all truth Ioan. 14. 16. The other of the places represents vnto vs the interpretation of the forsaid promise as it was vnderstood by the Apostles who relying on it met in Councell and there defined a Controuersie It hath seemed good to the Holie Ghost and to vs. Acts 15. Against the former place you saie first that it is meant of the Apostles onlie This is false for it is foreuer I will aske my father and he will giue you another comforter that he remaine with you for euer the Spirit of truth And apud vos manebit he shall remaine with you Io. 14. the Catholike Church is his mysticall bodie which cannot subsist without his Spirit and for confirmation and illustration of her faith not onelie in the Apostles time when our Sauiour was gone but euer since after they be gonne she needs assistance of the Spirit Neither was it his minde to leaue the faithfull without such comfort non relinquam vos orphanos Ioh. 14. I will not leaue you orphans O father establish confirme sanctifie them in the truth I aske not for them onlie Ioh. 17. the Apostles but for the Church for those which by their word shall beleeue in me That by thy prouidence for my sake in our Spirit all be as it were one and agree to their proportion as wee doe who doe iudge and approue still the same But tell me hath the Spirit left the Church or is he still in it if he hath left it how hath she supernaturall operations how doth she beleeue the diuine word how doth she subsist as the Gospell saith she shall notwithstanding all the endeuours of hell it selfe Mat. 16. If he doth remaine in it it is then true that the promise holds still euen that which was made vnto the Church in the Apostles time and began first to be fulfilled in them The greatest promises in all the Scripture be two one of God the Father to send his sonne to redeeme the world the other of God the Sonne to send the holie Ghost his spirit to teach and instruct his Church if you doe not beleeue the later is performed you will giue vs cause to thinke that you would euacuate the former too and not trust God at all in his promise nor in his couenant neither though so farre you trust one another Ierem. 35. Ezech. 37. I will giue my lawe in their bowels and in their hart I will write it and I will be their God and they shall be my people My Spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth Isa 59. shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seed saith our Lord from this present and foreuer See the Disp li. 3. Secondlie you saie that it is not to be vnderstood of all the dogmaticall points or doctrine by our Sauiour reuealed and deliuered vnto the Church but of some points onlie â—hose which are expressed in the Apostles Creed and not necessarilie of all those neither Here againe you doe manifestlie contradict the text of Scripture and open the waie to let errour and heresie into the Church For if the holie Ghost teach no more by the promise of our Sauiour then those fewe points it is impossible for men to knowe the truth touching other reuealed verities though they be necessarie to be knowne
this assistance the shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all what soeuer I shall haue said vnto you Ioann 14. So did the Apostle vnderstand it also in saying that Pastors are giuen to the end wee doe not wauer Ephes 4. nor be borne about with euery winde of doctrine Such a giddines happens in other things also besides fundamentalls The Church likewise beleeues the graunt to be thus vniuersall to all our Sauiours doctrine as appeareth by the matters which she defineth in generall Councels as in that of Trent And so much you will acknowledg of the primitiue Church if you reflect vpon that which hath beene said out of S. Augustine in the Donatists case about Baptisme which controuersie not being expressed in the Apostles Creed was in a Councell defined and in vertue of this assistance by the whole Christian world Neither doe you finde the difficultie which was resolued by the Apostles in their Councell put into the Creede Thirdlie you saie that out of a generall assistance such as God giues euerie man towards euerie good worke infallibilitie cannot be inferd and more you will not graunt But our Sauiour graunted more he promised the holie Ghost should teach the Church all truth Ioh. 14. 16. and his lessons must not be doubted of he cannot misse the truth or teach a lie The sence which he doth inspire teach affirme is certaine and the falsitie of any one thing were it possible he should teach a falsitie would infinitelie preiudice his authoritie in the estimation of his creatures yea the whole Scripture would be questioned if this ground were not firme â— Petr. 1. if that were not certaine which men inspired by the holie Ghost and affirming as from him or he in them might be false Fourthlie you saie that if the Councell follow Scripture it hath assistance and is infallible but not els This supposeth that the Church without assistance can vnderstand the Scripture or teach and define matter of faith whereas our Sauiour in the Scripture saith Ioann 15. without him wee can doe nothing and therefore he hath promised assistance that wee may knowe his will and our dutie and left the holie Ghost in the Church to teach her all truth The Iewes and Pagans and heretikes looke on Scripture but they doe not vnderstand it The Church hath a Master the Holie Ghost left to teach her and by his helpe doth vnderstaÌ„d What need a Schoolemaster if your child doth by himselfe vnderstand his booke or will you call it instruction if he neuer tell him any thing but what the child himselfe knowes before you knowe moreouer that when the Controuersie is about the Scripture the written word or about the Apostles Creed or generall tradition assistance is necessarie and also for the sence of Scripture more then is by your definition fundamentall To omitt that in your answer you allowe the Church no greater securitie from errour by the promised assistance then you graunt to be in pagans and heretikes without it for they dot not erre if they followe Scripture and iudge as it is there So little is the discretion of this answer and so small a benefit or rather no benefit you coÌ„ceaue to be bestowed in that faire promise Whereas wee beleeue our Sauiour to be God who neither mocks his Church nor breakes his word he can and will make and bringe to passe Ezech. 36. that she walke in his precepts He writes his lawes in her heart Ierem. 31. what hinders him and keepes his words Isa 59. in her mouth He hath opened a Schoole and put a Master in the chaire Docebit saith he he shall teach and if the lessoÌ„ be forgot suggeret Ioan. 14. he shall bringe it to minde againe he is not to staie till men finde it of them selues he is Master and shall teach it Fiftlie you saie that you are content exteriour obedience be giuen to generall Councells but no more Yet more must be giuen to the holie Ghost and in Councells He defineth Visum est Spiritui Sancto nobis Act. 15. were the words of the Councell it seemeth good to the holie ghost and to vs not to vs onlie but to him in himselfe and in vs heere assembled with his assistance promised in cases of this nature and wee are certaine that he who promised will performe to decide a controuersie our act is his act 2 Cor. 13. to Him it hath seemed good In S. Paul Christ spake the Apostles words 1. Thess 1. were acknowledged to be and were indeed the words of God Luc 10. the holie Ghost speakes in the Church the definition is his you must beleeue it and Matt. 18. remotis dubitationibus to vse S. Augustines words S. Aug. suprà there is no more doubt to be made of it In the conclusion of your discourse you repeate againe what you said in the beginning Alij fatentur opus esse iudice loquenteâ—eâ— homine Volunt tameÌ„ posse ab eo prouocari in foro in â—erno sea conscientiae Siâ— Wittakerus c. Sed hoc facilè refellitur tum quia in hac materia gratis confingitur haec distinctio fori tum etiam quia pax Ecclesiae sita est potissimum in foro interno scilicet in fide ergo non licet in eo foro prouocare à Iudice Ecclesiae alioquin nunquam pax esset conscientiae tum praeterea quia praxis Ecclesiae in Concilio Apostolorum aliorum generalium Conciliorum planè declarat quod Iudex Ecclesiae habeat potestatem dirimendi lites in foro conscientiae tum demum quia si quis teneretur obedire iudicio Ecclesiae in foro externo non in interno teneretur aliquando silentio sepelire veritatem Dei eamque non confiteri coram hominibus nempe si Ecclesia sententiam ferret contra Dei veritatem Accedit quod potestas Ecclesiae est spiritualis in animas ipsas ergo potestas illius iudicandi se extendit etiam ad forum internum Reuerendiss Chalc. in Collat. li. 2. c. 28. that wee beleeuing the Councels to be directed in their Decrees by the Holie Ghost in vertue of our Sauiours promise made vnto the Church attribute more to them then Antiquitie hath donne The vanitie of which your pretence sufficientlie appeares by that which hath beene answered to your exceptions in particular You finde none that denies what wee beleeue Yea those whom you produce to speake against vs affirme it constantlie And who more Auncient in the ranck of Christians then the Apostles themselues whose testimonie you haue heard in our behalf You haue beene told also that in Sainct Augustines daies the Catholikes vniuersallie and amongst them the greatest schollers submitted their iudgments to the iudgment of the Church in Councell and this too though the point so determined were neither fundamentall nor found in Scripture You shall finde also as hath beene likewise insinuated
Panormitans doctrine of the Pope Councels and vniuersall Church or as the Minister speakes imbracing it Whereas he doth onlie recite Panormitans words Notat Abbas de Sicilia quòd c. and hauing repeated them concludes haec ille So passing immediatlie to another Petrus de Ancharano c. without more adoe Yet since you will needes confound their opinions in this matter and make them both one one and the Deuine rather the matter appertaining to Deuinitie may deliuer it for them both which he doth in this tenour Antoninus m Ad illum pertinet Sanctum canonizare ad quem pertinet quaestiones fidei determinare Quod quidem planuÌ„ est spectare ad Summum PoÌ„tificem S. Antoninus in summa p. 3. tit 22. c. 5. §. 5 lege etiam si placet §. 3. eiusdem tit Apostoli in Euangelijs Epistolis affirmaueruÌ„t in omni doctrina Petrum esse loco Domini Idem c. 6. §. 7. ex Cyrillo Quaeritur vtrum authoritas vniuersalis Ecclesiae in determinatione fidei principaliter resideat in Papa Respondet S. Thomas affirmatiue 2. 2. q. 11. a. 2. ad 3. Postquam aliqua essent authoritate vniuersalis Ecclesiae determinata si quis tali ordinationi pertinaciter repugnaret haereticus censeretur Quae quidem authoritas principaliter residet in Summo Pontifice Dicitur enim 24. q. 1. Quoties fidei ratio ventilatur arbitror omnes fratres nostros coepiscopos non nisi ad Petrum id est ad sui nominis authoritatem referri debere caetera vsque finem vt habentur in S. Thoma loco cit S. Antoninus c. citato §. 19. Sancti Patres in Concilio congregati nihil statuere potuissent nisi authoritate Summi Pontificis interueniente sine qua etiam Concilium congregari non potest §. 20. ex codem S. Thom. li contra impugn relig To him appertaines the canonizing of Saints to whom it belongeth to determine questions touching the faith which manifestlie appertaines vnto the Pope n The question is whether the Authoritie of the vniuersall Church in determination of faith reside principallie in the Pope Saint Thomas they be Antoninus his words which I relate answers affirmatiuelie that after things be determined by the authoritie of the vniuersall Church if any stubbornelie resist or withstand that ordination he should be esteemed an Heretick Which Authoritie is chieflie in the Pope And to this tenet of Saint Thomas Antoninus there subscribeth denying to the the Bishops power to ordaine in this manner or to call a Councell to this purpose without the Popes Authoritie o Concilium non solum comprehendit Papam vt caput quod est principale in Concilijs sed etiam reliquum corpus Ecclesiae vt alios Praelatos de quo Concilio inquit Propheta Non abscondi misericordiam tuam veritatem tuam à Concilio multo Idem tit 23. c. 1. A Councell doth not include onlie the Pope as Head which is chiefe in Councels but the rest of the bodie withall as other Prelates Of which Councell the Prophet saith I haue not hid thy mercie and thy truth from a great Councell p A Concilijs vanitatis malignitatis abscondit Deus misericordiam veritatem sed non abscondit à Concilio multorum sc tendentium ad vnum c. Ibidem §. 1. From Councels of vanitie and malignitie God doth hïde his mercie and his truth but he hideth them not from the Councell of many tending vnto one c. q Ea quae statuuntur in huiusmodi Concilijs generalibus omnes fideles astringunt Idem eod tit cap. 2. in principio things constituted in such generall Councels oblige all the faithfull §. V. 1. Cusanus held the infallibilitie of generall decrees 2. The words obiected out of him against vs are indeed plainely for vs as in the reading of them they are at leingth in the Addition it doth appeare CArdinalis Cusanus in Concilijs generalibus ad hoc vt eorum decreta à nobis acceptentur tanquam certa infallibilia quasdam conditiones requirit c. Baâ—o p 368. 1. CVSANVS This man is brought to teach vs and to teach the whole Church the conditions of a generall Councell as if none were good but such as he liked of and approued he was a yonge man when he wrote his booke and a Finit collectio c. quam sacro huic Basiliensi Concilio cum omni humilitate offero nihil in omnibus veruÌ„ aut defendendum pro vero iudicans seu assereÌ„s nisi quod ipsa sancta Synodus catholicum verum iudicauerit Cusanus in fine CoÌ„cordantiae suae Catholicae earnest for the Councell of Basill though he changed his minde b Vide eiusdem Epist ad Rodericum da Treuino afterwards Neither is the Question heere what be the conditions of a Councell but Whether a generall Councell which hath all conditions that are necessarie and is by the Pope approued be assisted to the definition of the truth and be infallible in which matter wee shall easilie knowe Cusanus his minde In the third chapter which you cite he recites the words of Nicolas the first terming such decrees c Idem li. 2. de Concord c. 3. diuinitus inspiratas sententias sentences inspired by God And after of himselfe he saith d Ibidem si concordanti sententia aliquid fuerit definitum per Spiritum Sanctum censetur inspiratum per Christum in medio congregatorum in eius nomine praesidentem infallibiliter iudicatum If any thing be defined by an agreeing Sentence it is esteemed inspired by the holy Ghost and iudged or determined by Christ praesiding in the middes of them that are assembled in his name This he declares in the Councell of Nice whereof the great e Conc. Chalc. act 1. Councell of Chalcedon saith that the holie Ghost did did there certainlie remaine or sitt amongst the Fathers and ordaine the things which were there ordained And then concludes f Cusan c. 3. vt suprà talia fuerunt omnia orthodoxa Concilia such haue bene all Councells orthodoxall As for the conditions he speakes of none which he thought necessarie be wanting in those generall Councells which wee maintaine The presence of the fiue Patriarkes he doth not require but when they be Catholik nor then neither but for the more fullnes of the Councell Others may be perfect which haue not all but that which hath all is he saith synodus g Ibidem perfectissima most perfect in that kinde One may haue the whole essence of a man all the essentiall parts and yet not be most perfect Our Councells are not made in secret they be assembled and openlie from all parts of the world wheresoeuer the Catholick Church is and such as come may freelie speake and are heard They looke into scriptures and former Councells and Antiquitie to finde the truth and though in the search it might appeare to
some sooner then others yet all in the end approue and propose it DEbet sacrum Concilium vniuersale regulis Sancti Spiritus tam in Canone Sacrae Scriptura ac praeteritis Concilijs apertis dirigi maximè in negotio fidei quae vna inuariabilis necessario sicut fuit permanebit scripturas rimari in dubijs sicut in sexto vniuersali Concilio actum fuit alijs multis tunc definitio ex allegatis sumpta absque errore necessariò erit Vnde si ea non seruantur maximè libera omnium audientia ac vbi atiqua attentarentur in synodis quae obuiarent fidei Romanae Ecclesiae protestatio iustè ac simul appellatio ad futurum aliud Concilium fieri potest Baro p. 369. expunctis tamen ijs quae diuerso charactere notantur 2. NEither is there cause to feare that a Councell assisted by the holie Ghost and defining will contradict either scripture or the h Ex hoc etiaÌ„ elici potest fideÌ„ Romanae Ecclesiae in nulla synodo vniuersali retractari posse Cutan Conc. li. 2. c. 4. Dicit Augustiâ—us li. 1. con Donatistas volens stabili fundamento ex deâ—isione vniuersalis Concilij fidem probare Iam ne videar â—umanis argumentis id agere c. Idem c. 5. vidâ—s quanta â—niuersalibus Concilijs authoritas inest dum rectè celeâ—antur Vnde Augustinus l. 1 Serm. con Pelagianos diâ— matris Ecclesiae hanc esse authoritatem quod quisquis â—ntra hunc inexpugnabilem murum arietat ipse confrinâ—ut Ibidem faith of former times he that â—s chieflie interessed in the busines vnderstands all things clearlie and cannot contradict a veritie That which is obiected vpon ocâ—asion of S. Augustines words that i de verbis S. Augustini cum aliquo experimeÌ„to rerum c. fusius agemus suo loco a plenarie Councell may faile in the experiment of things and in that case iudge amisse makes nothing to the purpose for wee dispute not of infallibilitie in things which may be found out by tryall or experiment but in matters reuealed and of faith §. VI. Clemangis professed to reuerence the authoritie of Councells and only to propose some doubts for his instruction in some things touching them NIcolaus de Clemangis in disputatione cum scholastico Parisiensi quaedam etiam tradit quae cum doctrina Pontificiorum de Conciliorum infallilibilitate manifestè pugnant Baro p. 370. Dicit Concilium generale errare posse in controuersijs morum Baro Ibidem CLEMANGIS His worke iâ— a Index libr. prohibit Conc. Trid. forbidden and his frind tâ— whom he directed it perceaued iâ— came from b Quanquam Deum ac conscieÌ„tiam testari liceat nullatenus stomachato animo illa fuisse scripta quod miror tibi visum esse quia tamen vndecun que hoc euenerit ita tibi visum est vt tuae quantum fas fuerit voluÌ„tati ac petitioni morem geram dulciora ac sedatiora enitar Clemang ad scholast Paris p 599. edit Parisiensi anno 1576. discontent being forced as appeares by his owne Epistle c Opressus naÌ„que vt nosti ante aliquot annos aemulolorum insultatione me tunc grauissimè persequentium ex vrbe illa fui excedere compulsus latebrasque à facie tempestatis coÌ„tra me iniustè admodum illic saeuieÌ„tis alibi quaerere p. 600. latebras quaerere to plaie leastâ— sight He writes bitterlie against the Clergie belike they made him flie Touching Councells he doth not contradict their authoritie howsoeuer he mistakes the manner of defending it but onlie writes vnto a freind to be informed better in it protesting both to honour them and to be readie to amend what in his writing should be thought amisse Heare some of his owne words d Idem pa. 587. Verilie I reuerentlie receaue and faithfullie embrace all Councells as well such as longe agoe haue been duelie celebrated as also those which are celebrated now adaies and God forbid that I should thinke or speake any sinister thing of them Neither should I therefore be calumniated as lesse sincerelie esteeming them in that for the instruction of my ignorance I seeke to know and desire to haue declared vnto me some things that I may not only thinke of them well and faithfullie but also according to the capacitie of my litle wit trulie and wiselie speake of them And a litle after e Clemang pa. 588. I desire to be taught by thee whether thou thinkest it must be beleeued as a Catholike veritie that in those things which be of fact or of manners or of iudgments a generall Councell can neuer be deceaued as well as it is faithfullie beleeued that it cannot erre in faith And in the end f Idem pa. 598. alioquin temerariuÌ„ esset minus intellecta velle à sapientoribus discere quamuis etiam certè paratus sim si ea quae me mouent dubia explicando aliquid in radice veritatis minus fundatum aut alicuius fortasse scandadali illatiuum nimis astruere viderer aut fideli admonitu illud eradere aut ad lineam rectitudinis lima exactiori emendare Ibidem I intend as I haue oft alreadie said neither am I loath to repeate it in these or other writings to affirme nothing but that which may be altogeather agreeable to the Catholike integritie But in case I haue proposed not affirming but doubting or arguing any thing lesse certaine or true whereby I may be the more fullie informed of the certaintie I thinke that should not be thought rashnes in me And the rest which you finde cited in the Addition DIcit Christi assistentiam c. ad solos sanctos spirituales pertinere Baro p. 370. Non obscure innuit eam persuasionem seu fiduciam de conciliorum infallibilitate qua multi tumescunt esse Ecclesiae admodum perniciosam Idem p. 371. ANd whereas he proposeth by waie of doubt that holy meÌ„ only were to be heard speaking out of a Councell he seemes not to haue remeÌ„bred what our B. Sauiour said of Scribes and Pharisees teaching out of Moyses chaire quae dicunt facite imitate not their workes but practice what they teach That such as doe celebrate a Councell should not nimis inniti to much insist or presume on this that they are a generall Councell as if therefore they might freelie doe quaecunque libuerit doth not make against vs it denies not to a Councell infallibilitie as he denies it not to Prophets and Apostles who saies they should not relie to much therevpon as if therefore they might doe what they listed Moreouer his speach is qualified by himselfe if you marke it non debent vt videtur and g Clemang pa. 597. non vtile crediderim illos inniti mee thinks they should not I should not esteeme it profitable for them to relie c. § VII 1. Canus defends the infallibilitie of approued Councells 2. His opinion of others which are not