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A19649	An aunswer to sixe reasons, that Thomas Pownde, Gentleman, and prisoner in the Marshalsey. at the commaundement of her Maiesties Commissioners, for causes Ecclesisasticall: required to be aunswered Because these reasons doo moue him to think, that controuersies and doubts in religion, may not be iudged by the Scriptures, but that the Scriptures must be iudged by the Catholique Church. ... Written by Robert Crovvley.	Crowley, Robert, 1518?-1588.; Pounde, Thomas, 1539-1616.; Tripp, Henry, d. 1612.	1581 (1581)	STC 6075; ESTC S109107	34,598	58

that doo vnfainedly professe that Religion that you hate doo vnfainedly looue you and pray for the opening of the eyes of your vnderstanding that you may see and feele and embrace your saluation in Christe and that being Englishmen or inhabiting within the English dominions you may know and acknowledge her Maiestie for your supreme Gouernor in all causes next and immediatly vnder Christe our onely vniuersall head Fare you well From my house at S. Gyles without Creplegate of London the. 6. of Ianuarie 1580. After the accoumpt of the Church of Englande and in the. 23. yeere of her Maiesties Reigne ⸪ Yours when you shall shew your selues to be true Christians and English men Robert Crovvley Clerk 7. September 1580. ¶ Sixe Reasons set downe to shew that it is no orderly way in cōtrouersies of faith to appeale to be tryed only by Scriptures as the absurde opinion of all the Sectaries is but the sentence definition of the Catholike Church by whome as by the Spowse of Christ alwayes inspired with the holy ghost the holy Scripture is to be iudged FIrst consider well these words of our Sauiour in sending vs to the Scriptures saying Searche the Scriptures for you thinke to haue eternall life in them And these are they that beare witnesse of me Marke well these wordes I say that the Scripture is but witnesse bearer to the trueth and not the Iudge to discerne of trueth for iudgement giuing belongeth not to the witnesse bearer although he be as a rule to leade and direct the Iudge in true iudgement But what if this witnesse should be currupted as no man will deny but it may yet this Iudge to whome the holy Ghost is promised will finde it and reforme it Vnderstād therfore my Reasons why of necessitie the Church must be Iudge of the Scriptures and take your Pen and confute them I pray you if you can 1. The first is because the written Text is mute and dumbe vttering nothing to vs from the Booke but only the wordes and not the sense wherein the lyfe as it were of the Scripture consisteth And what definitiue sentence can such a Iudge giue to ouer rule the conceyted minde of an opinatiue man which hath no euident meanes to pronounce any iudgement against him but onely to shewe him a dumbe signe in writing which a wrangler may conster styll to his owne vnderstanding against all the worlde 2 The second Reason is because the holy Scripture as S. Augustine sayth is very full of harde and déepe anysteries in so much that when Honoratus sayd to him as many vnlearned men say now a dayes that he vnderstood it well enough without helpe of any instructor Say you so sayth he you would not take vpon you to vnderstand such a Poet as Terence is well without a Maister and dare you rushe into the holy Scriptures which are so full of Diuine mysteries without a Maister and dare you rushe into the holy Scriptures which are so full of Diuine mysteries without a guide All Heresies sayth he come of nothing else Nisi dum scripturae bonae intelliguntur non bene But whyle the good Scriptures are not well vnderstoode Héerto also S. Peter in his second Epistle Cap. 3. beareth witnesse saying That many misunder stood S. Paule in many harde places peruersly to their owne perdition But then you will say the harde places may easely he vnderstoode by conference of other Scriptures Well admit a chyldish reason for a worde or two That because they might so be among the humble minded therfore they must néeds be so though men be neuer so peruerse Yet giue mée leaue to pose you then one Question farther to y e quick Howe is it possible to knowe by any conference of the Scriptures which is Canonicall Scripture and which is not certainely if any Infidell would deny the olde Testament as some Heretikes in time past haue done and I praye God there be not many Atheistes at this day in England which be farther gone yet then they Yea if such a one should deny all the newe Testament also we haue no sure Anckor holde against him but the Reuelation of God by tradition to his Church which is the pyllor and sure stay of trueth which S. Augustine well séeing thought he might be bolde to say with due reuerence to God and holie Scripture bothe I should not beleue the Gospell except the authoritie of y e Church did moue me thereunto meanyng that the tradition of the vniuersall Churche and the testimonie of all the people of God in whom the holie Ghoste dwelleth must iustly moue vs to credite that whiche their authoritie doth commaunde vs to giue credite vnto Therefore let any man beware of fliyng from the Churches Iudgement to the Scripture onely least the Scripture it self should vtterly bee denied as by some Atheistes in Englande as I heare saie is alreadie And then might suche Infidels laugh all Heretickes to scorne for robbyng them selues of their owne defence But now to returne to my purpose if conference of one Scripture with an other might giue light enough to all men How happeneth it that all Sects vsing that conference yet thei can neuer agrre in their opinions but diuers men and all vsing suche conference doe yet construe it diuersly The vttermoste shifte thei haue is this suche a weake one as it is that the Reader must giue hymself to prayer for the truthe to be reuealed vnto hym Wherein marke I praie you the iutollerable pride of arrogant Hypocrites that thei will first mistrust Gods reuelation of the truthe to his Vniaersall Churche for the whiche Christe himself hath prayed and promised to teache them all tr 〈…〉 moste presumptuously to come and 〈…〉 pt God to haue that truthe reuealed onely to them selues whiche beyng reuealed many hundreth yeares agone and defined in generall Counsell by all the holie Fathers where the holie Ghoste is alwaies present or at leaste by the holie Doctors in their writynges set doune yet thei will not beleeue it nor harken vnto it yet this is their course and so as thei saie forsoothe thei praie very hartely though fewe of them can wring out any teares in their praiers but yet with suche a faithe in the Lorde as their owne terme is that they dooe all verely beleeue the truthe is reuealed vnto them And yet perdie thei must needes be all deceiued as long as thei dwell in dissention and are not in errors onely but one contrarie to an other who now must be the Iudge to trie the spirites whether they be of God or no but onely the Churche Or els shall thei not bee tried at all but continuall permission for infinite Legions of liyng spirites to be still vndetected that thei maie seduce more and more 3 The third Reason is because S. Peter saieth plainly that no Scripture is to bee taken after any miuate interpretatiō for it was not vttered after the will and fantasie of

Reasons if happily they had any force Secondly that which you bring out of y e fift of S. Iohns Gospell to prooue the scripture to be but witnes bearer to y e truth and not the Iudge though it haue some shew of reason yet being well wayed it well vanishe for you imagine because you finde the worde witnesse which is Verbum forence That by by you must haue a pitched Court a iudgement seate where shall be presented many persons in seuerall places one to be witnesse an other to be Iudge and perhaps some to be iustified and some to be condempned But if you had wayed other places of scripture you shoulde haue séene that the holy Ghoste admitteth no such straight collctions but framing his writing to our capacitie Useth some time one phrase and sometime an other And you might haue found where the worde is called a Iudge as in the twelfth Chapter of the same Euangelist If any man heare my wordes and beleeue them not I iudge him not c. He that refuseth me and receyueth not my words hath one that iudgeth him The word that I haue spoken shall iudge him in the last day For I haue not spoken of my selfe c. Now iudge you how soundly you haue gathered it is witnesse therefore not Iudge or not rather bothe a witnesse a Iudge So might you reason of the diuerse Metaphors giuen to the word which is called Bread Wine Oile Milke Hony Water Raine Light Fyre Golde Siluer Pearle and Iron rod Scepter Sword the breath of the Lords mouth Now were it not a fonde Reason to gather because it is the breath of the Lordes mouth therfore it is no Sword because it is a sword or Iron rod therfore it is not Gold c. Or because it is Gold therfore it is no bread when as the holy Ghost hath set downe those sundrie Metaphors to expresse the power dignitie and commoditie of the worde But this is none of your six Reasons and therfore the weight of your cause lyeth not vpon it yet in pronouncing your Treatise before witnesse you gaue it a greate force ¶ Now to your Reasons YOur first Reason is groūded vpon a false principle for you imagine our church to be without a Ministerie to teach and open the Scriptures which is not so yea rather your Préestes are mute and not onely that but ye close vp the booke of God will not let it be read to make the Scriptures wholy mute least they might bewray your corruptions But God be thanked God hath opened the mouthes of many by the Scriptures to witnes agaynst your errors and so iudge you by the same wordes if you amend not Your second Reason pretendeth that the Scripture is verie full of hard déepe mysteries surely I confesse that the Scripture hath his harde Misteries and hard places but hath it not also his easie familyar doctrines Is there not meate for all Estates Milke for babes and strong meate for good stomacks But I dare be bolde to auouch that it was Sathans policie to robbe the people of the whole vse of the Scriptures vnder pretence of ambiguitie as though the whole Scriptures were nothing else but Rydles As for the tryall of harde places the learned haue set downe two excellent rules which I meruaile you can reiect the one is conference of Scripture with Scripture the other is begging of wisedome of God who giueth it to the Babes lyttle ones and hydeth it from the wise in their owne conceyte who stumble at playne places not being dyrected by Gods spirite But howsoeuer they labour to trie the spirites or whatsoeuer knowledge they doo attaine they leaue the suueraigntie of the iudgement to the word Your thyrde Reason grounded on Saint Peters testimony 2. Peter 1. Erreth in not considering what the Apostle meaneth by priuate or not priuate you séeme to place it in the multytude of personnes that giue the interpretation but the Apostle placeth it in the authoritie of the Author of the word Therefore one Prophete speaking in the Lordes name being truely sent from the Lorde is more to be beléeued then the whole packe of Préestes resisting of mallice or ignorance and they being many are priuate and one Prophete being but one is not priuate Secondly you pretende that euerie man may interprete the Scriptures as he lysteth which is a false charge But we desyre them and allowe them to reade the Scriptures and to sée whether those thinges which we teache them be so or no according to the example of the faithfull Acts. 17. And as they are commaunded by Christe and the Apostle 1. Iohn 4. In your fowrth Reason whyle you went about to temper our pride as you say it séemeth you distēpered your own wits in putting downe so many things in y e name of vnwritten verities which notwithstāding are written you aske of the matter when I suppose ye meane y e termes brought in by the Fathers to expresse the doctrine more plainlie As the word Trinity person and other to make plaine the doctrine against the Arrians Héere you were foully ouerséen And you would make as beléeue that the Church hath authoritie to poynt vs new● Articles of faith without warrant of scripture she was wont to challenge some liberty in Ceremonies indifferent things but you giue her power in Articles of faith Your fift Reason stumbleth on the false principle whereon you grounded your first Reason where you iudge no gouernment to be in our Church because we giue the highest rule to the worde gouerne thereby as by a most perfect lawe after which no newe Parliament néede to be called to adde or diminishe from it but all men of all estates ought to put to theyr hands to sée it executed and kept for the which cause if they at any tyme assemble the worde written is theyr direction Against your sixt Reason I auouch that he that appealeth to the iudgement of the written worde dooth yéelde a most waighty Reason to ratifie the sending of the holy Ghost to his Church and that it is the spirite of trueth For 〈◊〉 the Apostles were so mightely endewed with the spirite that they bothe taught and left in writing the whole Coūcels of God enough to make the man of God perfect c Then the Church that challengeth the promise of that spirite wherewith they were endewed must subscribe to that trueth which they haue lefte written for whatsoeuer is not agreeabl● thereto commeth from an other spirit opposing it selfe against the spirit of God which is neuer contrarie to it selfe Thus I haue bréeflie layde down 〈…〉 which I could haue done more at large but Ma●ster Crowley hath giuen you matter enough and yet more then eyther he or I can wryte is set downe by Chemnicius and others whose Treatises you might doo well eyther to reade for your learning or to impugne if you be able ¶ Your well wyller H. T. FINIS Iohn ● The first Reason The secōd Reason The third Reason 2. Pet. 1. d. The fourth Reason The fift Reason The sixt Reason Titu 3. 2. Tim. 3. Luk. 24. 1. Cor. 2. 2. Cor. 3. Aug. de verbis Domini ser 13. 2. Pet. 3. 1. Tim. 3. Tom. 6. Mark 16. Phil. 3. Epist 15. De Bapt. Libr. 2. Cap. 2. Ephe. 6. 1. Cor. 11. De Trini Libr. 15. Iam. 1. 1. Cor. 11. In. 1. Iohn Epist Cap. 2. 2. Pet. 1. Sessio 4. Lyranus in 2. Epi. Peter Psal 110. Math. 22. Tom. 3. Ephe. 3. Iohn 15. 20. 1. Pet. 3. Ieroni Tom. 4. Mark 10. 1. Cor. 7. Mark a. Apoc. 1. Collo 2. Acts. 15. Luk. 11. 1. Pet. 5. Tom. 1. Disti 16. An. 956. Vorat Plat. Plat. Volat. Volat. Plat. Psal 119. Esai 5. 1. Cor. 2. 1. Cor. 14. Luke 22. Psal 91. Alexan. 3. An. 1174. Math. 4. Sap. 4. Tom. 4. Esai 59. Esai 44. Iohn 16. Luke 10. In Asceticis

An Aunswer to sixe Reasons that Thomas Pownde Gentleman and Prisoner in the Marshalsey at the commaundement of her Maiesties Commissioners for causes Ecclesiasticall required to be aunswered Because these Reasons doo moue him to think that controuersies and doubts in Religion may not be Iudged by the Scriptures but that the Scriptures must be Iudged by the Catholique Church 1. The first is for that the Scriptures are mute and dum 2. The second for that they be full of harde and deepe mysteries 3. The thirde for that S. Peter sayth No Scripture is to be taken after any priuate interpretation 4. The fourth for that to appeale to the Scriptures dooth seeme to denie all vnwritten verities 5. The fyft is for that it were a great absurditie not to haue a certaine Iudge of absolute Authoritie in the interpreting of Scriptures c. 6. The sixt is for that in refusing the Authoritie of the Churches absolute Iudgement herein we seeme to denie the holie ghost to be the spirite of trueth Written by Robert Crovvley ¶ Imprinted at London by John Charlewood 1581. ¶ To all the Pope his Catholiques in England or else where IN September last I with others was by sufficient Authoritie appointed to cōfer with such of your sort as at that tyme were in her Maiesties prisons of the Marshalsey the white Lion in Sowthwark restrained of lybertie for refusing to conforme themselues to that order of Religiō which is now publique in this Realme of England And according to our duety in that behalfe Maister Henrie Tryp and I did as we were required make our spedy repaire first to the one prison and then to the other And after some conference had with certain that were close prisoners we came to confer with one Maister Thomas Povvnde Gentleman in the lodging where he then laye And finding him altogeather vnwylling to enter into any conference by speaches because as he sayd he feared to fall into daunger of Lawe therby I aunswered that he ought to haue a better opinion of her Maiestie by whose appointment we were come to offer cōference then to thinke that she would send vs to entrap him or any other her subiects For she needeth not to seeke more aduantage against any of them then that which already by their disloyall behauiour they haue giuē her So that if she would proceede against them in rigour of lawe and not in mercie she might cut their heads from their shoulders and make no more to doo with them But being desirous by some meanes to bring to passe that they might become as obedient subiects to her as she both hath and dooth shew her selfe a louing Prince to them she would not abridge them of lybertie which for good and iust yea necessary causes shee is now enforced to doo but that shee would withal prouide that by cōferēce with such as be learned they might either be drawn from their errours or els be found to be obstinate and wilfully blinde But none of these speaches could mooue maister Pownd to like of any conference by speaches Yet notwithstanding he sayd he was ready to confer by wryting and offered so to doo Whereunto I aunswered that we had no commission to deale that way but yet if he would write I promised to aunswer him in writing Vpon this he pulled a Pāphlet out of his bosome the copie wherof I haue caused to be set before mine aunswer called in such as he thought meete to heare it read And after he had read it he deliuered it to me to be aunswered And this was done the. 7. day of September The ninth of the same month I began to shape him an aunswer and finished the same with as much conuenient speed as I could being letted with busines besides that busines enough to occupy som mā thorowly But by Gods helpe the time was not long before the aunswer was finished But in this meane whyle I know not by what occasion Maister Povvnd was remoued to another prisō further of so that I could not come to delyuer mine aunswer to him neyther did I thinke it meete to be sent to him immediatly from me because I vnderstoode that the right Reuerend Father the Lorde Bishop of London had commaunded him to be remooued thence I did therefore reade in the hearing of as many of your sorte as I then found in the Marshalsey bothe the Reasons contayned in Maister Povvnd his Pamphlet and also mine aunswers to the same Promising that with as much speede as I might I would send bothe to my sayd Lord the Bishop with my Letters beseeching him at his discretion eyther to send mine aunswer to Maister Pownd or els to cause him to be brought back againe to the Marshalsey whether I might repaire to proceede in conference with him by writing But my sayde Lorde being oppressed with other affaires more waightie and thereby enforced to commit this busines to some other that were not so carefull for the dispatch thereof as I would they had And I my selfe also not altogether vnoccupied otherwise did not as in dutie I ought call vpon my sayd Lord but supposing that mine aunswer had beene shortly conuayed to Maister Povvnd because I heard not of his returne to the Marshalsey I rested looking to haue receyued some replie from him tyll at the last euen in the Moneth of December last I heard that the Copies of his Pamphlet were made common to many of your sorte with great brags that the reasons therein contayned are vnaunswerable Yea and some of our side were required to aunswer them euen as Maister Povvnd had required me Whereupon repayring to my sayd Lorde the Bishop I receaued my sayde aunswer againe the 4. of this Ianuarie with his allowance to publish it in Printe together with the Copies of Maister Povvnd his Pamphlet and the breefe aunswer that Maister Trippe wrote after I had finished mine as by the same may appeare And this was thought needefull to be don because the Copie of Maister Povvnd his Pamphlet is already made so common our annswers being as yet made knowne but to fewe And that you may haue that firste in sight that you like best I haue caused the Printer to place the Copy of Maister Povvnd his Pamphlet immediatly after this short Epistle Reade these Reasons for your pleasure and our aunswers for your profite And if you mislike with our aunswers replie if you can You shall finde them of our side that will deale with you faithfully and freendely too Be not obstinately and wilfully blinde least you doo thereby prouoke yea and enforce our mercifull Prince contrary to her naturall inclination to deale with you in Iustice without mercie Though we haue great cause to thinke that you all the sorte of you doo hate both our Prince and vs for that Religion which bothe she and we do professe yet I dare assure you that bothe she and all the Honorable learned of her Realme yea and all of all estates

is our mother It wyll be harde for you to finde it I wryte not this as one that would deny the Church that is the Spowse of Christe to be the mother of Christians in that sence that she is the Spowse of Christe But I write thus to let you sée that I lyke not with your manner of concluding vpon this being once graūted That this mother of ours that must néedes teach all her chyldren fyrst to beléeue in God for that faith commeth by hearing and also to know the Scriptures and is the pyller and sure stay of trueth must néedes be the absolute Iudge and imperiall Schoolemistresse to teach vs all how to beléeue in God and to vnderstande the Scriptures This geare hangeth together lyke Iermans lyps as the prouerbe is If you had sayde thus The Church being the spowse of Christe is our mother and hath receyued commission from her husband and our father Christ to teach vs all those things that he hath taught and commaūded her to doo to teach vs his children to doo wherfore if we shall not hearken to her as to our chéefe Schoole mistresse vnder her husbād and our father so long as she teacheth nothing but that which our father hath commaunded her to teach vs we shall dispise him because we despise her as it is written Qui vos spernit me spernit He that despiseth you despiseth me If you had written thus a man might haue made some sence of your wordes But as you haue written you séeme to make the gray Mare the better Horse And to spoyle our Father Christe of all his power that our Mother his Wife may not be found with out absolute power I sée not therfore why I may not for this blindnesse of your heartes say as iustly to you as S. Paule dooth to the Galathians O insensati c. Oh you foolish fellowes who hath bewitched you not to obey vnto the trueth which euen of Infants and sucking Babes as it were is discerned as cléere as the Sunne So that you must not disdayne though Maister Trippe doo tryppe you in your owne turne as a séely seducer to maintaine as you doo all so grosse an opinion béeing the forrest in déede for all such Foxes to litter theyr whelpes in And héere you séeme to haue had one fling at Maister Foxe also because you vnderstoode that he is one allowed in the Kéepers warrant to haue conference with you I meruayle howe Maister Turnebull escaped your frumpping pen. But to conclude this assercion Acquite your selfe as well as you can why you should not all be suspected to be Antichristians for as much as you doo so stowtly mayntayne that man of sinne that setteth vp himselfe aboue all that is called God and sitteth in the Temple of God and boasteth himselfe as though he were God Whome the Lord shall destroy euen with the breath of his mouthe And that worde that you woulde haue to be iudged by your Antichristian Churche shall iudge bothe Antichriste and his Church And that holy Ghost that came downe from Heauen vpon our Christes Apostles hath remayned and dooth still remaine and to the ende of the world shall remaine with his Catholique Church That is with that Church which beléeueth holdeth and protesteth that Catholique Faith that Iesus Christe commaunded his Apostles to teach Catholiquely to all Nations and sortes of peoples in all parts of the world Promising that the holy Ghost should alwayes remaine with the faithfull to direct them in all trueth and godlinesse of lyuing Thus hauing first considered the wordes of our Sauiour in sending vs to the Scriptures saying Searche the Scriptures c. I haue founde that the conclusion that you make vppon the manner of speach that our Sauiour vseth in that place of Saint Iohn his Gospell is not Secundum vnanimen consensum Patrum that is According to the agréeable consent of the Fathers and therefore condempned by your Fathers in the Councell of Trent in the fowrth Session Saint Austine dooth accoumpt acurssed whatsoeuer is taught other then out of the Scriptures of the Lawe and the Gospell Lib. 3. Chap. 6. Against the Letters of Petilian And in his booke of Christian doctrine and the .37 Chap. He saith that without the authoritie of Scripture our Faith dooth but stacker or stumble And againe in his .166 Epistle he sayth That bothe Christe and his Church are learned to be knowne in the Scriptures Basill sayth that whatsoeuer is taught without the holy Scripture is sinne Chrysostome in his second exposition vppon Mathew sayth that the true Church cānot other wise be known then by the holy Scriptures Homilia 49. Yea Saint Austine in his first booke that he wrote against the Epistle of Parmenianus and the second Chap dooth accoumpt it to be rashnesse to giue credite to any that dooth not prooue by Scripture that which he affyrmeth I dare not therefore giue credite to that which you haue written tyll you prooue it by Scripture As for your sixe Reasons that you stay vpon I haue conceyued and doo vnderstand what they be And as in the beginning of your Pamphlet you desire so haue I taken Pen in hande and haue done what I can to confute them And as I thinke haue doone it sufficiently If you can replie doo you take pen in hande againe and doo what you are able I wyll not refuse to trie the trueth of these matters with you or with the best on your side Haec est fides mea quia vera Christiana Catholica Apostolica This is my Faith because it is the true Catholique and Apostolique Faith Robertus Crowleus Subscripsit Henricus Trippe Hijs quae à Domino R. C. responsa sunt ¶ A breefe Aunswer to Maister Pownds six Reasons Written by Maister Henrie Trippe MAister Pownd hauing perused the aunswer of Maister Crowly to your sixe Reasons and finding them sufficiently aunswered by that godly Father whome you thinke not to be worthy naming as you write to me I thought good rather to subscribe to his aunswer then to frame an other How be it to take from you the aduauntage of glorying which I thinke you will easily take against me as not being able to answere you I wil breefly vrge you in some pointes wherein I sée he hath spared you And first I must néedes shew you that all your Reasons are set one a tottering foundation because y e Iudge her selfe is not cleared of suspition for you take it as a thing graūted that the Churche of Rome is the spowse of Christ which thing is in cōtrouersie betwene vs. It had bene therfore an orderly procéeding to haue dealt first with that matter and to haue put it out of doubt that your Reasons in appealing to her iudgement might haue bene the stronger Pighius one of your owne men confesseth that the question of the Church ought first to be discidid Thus you builde vpon a false principle and ouerthrowe the force of your owne