and other cleargie orders they haue baptisme the Eucharist and all other things He proceedeth affirming that the church was in times past knowne by miracles but now they are either ended or els in greater number with false Christians yea he auerreth that a man might know by the liues of men which was the true Church but now Christians were worse then either hereticks or Ethnicks If this worke were written by an Arrian as some say yet there is no cause to condemne this excellent sentence prooued by so weightie reasons The eight reason Scriptures We haue finished by Gods assistance seuen Reasons some of which as the Doctour seemeth to graunt are nothing worth without Scripture and therefore he saith that they teach not any doctrine but such as is deriued out of the holy Bible If you would abide by this confession you would not hold so many vnwritten opinions as you doe For adoration of Images for the halfe communion for the Popes not erring for the lent fast with other points of Poperie what scripture is there It is one of your principles Cens Colon. that traditiones ecclesiae non scriptae credendae ac seruandae sunt vnwritten traditions are to be beleeued and kept Hence I conclude after this manner They which hold opinions by vnwritten traditions deriue not all their opinions out of the scriptures But the Papists hold some opinions by vnwritten traditions Ergo. But good M. Doctour are we driuen to denie certaine parts of Gods holy Bible for the maintaining of our opinions and are the Manichees our predecessours take heede least by auouching vntruths you doe vastare conscientiam make shipwracke of conscience If Luther reiected the epist of S. Iames what is that to vs Caietane will haue it to be minoris authoritatis quam caeteras Bell. lib. 1. cap. 17. 2. booke 23. of lesse authoritie then the other epistles Eusebius saith sciendum est eam esse adulterinam we must know that it is a bastard epistle Euseb 3.22 cap. Now I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which refuse bookes of Scripture frame that bible to their opinions But the Protestants refuse bookes of Scripture Ergo. I denie the assumption which is set downe without any proofe and for the disproofe of the same I will not content my selfe with a few fathers but will produce a cloud of witnesses that the Papists may see their proud bragge of fathers Origen at Eusebius speaketh thus Euseb hist 6. booke 24. Hand ignorandum fieret esse veteris testamenti libros sicut Hebraei tradunt viginti duos qui etiam numerus apudeos est literarum We must vnderstand that there are 22. bookes of the old Testament as the Hebrewes doe teach which also is the number of letters Hence I gather that if the Canonicall bookes answer the hebrew letters then there are but 22. otherwise there should be more then the letters are Melito numbreth the same bookes which we doe excepting the booke of Wisdome as witnesseth Eusebius 4. book 25. Cyril of Ierusalem in his 4. catechisme exhorteth the Catechumenes to read 22. bookes but that he reckneth Baruck with Ieremie he reckneth the same which we doe and directly warneth vs vt cum Apocryphis nihil habeamus negotij that we haue nothing to doe with Apocryphal bookes for saith he multò prudentiores te religiosiores fuerint Apostoli primi Episcopi veritatis duces qui nobis eas tradiderunt the Apostles and first Bishops were wiser and more religious then thy selfe they deliuered these scriptures to vs. Leontius in his 2. action of sects agreeth with these authors saying that veteris scripturae libri sunt viginti duo there are 22. bookes of the old testament Innilius reiecteth the Machabees from diuine scripture quoniam apud Hebraeos super hac differentia recipiebantur libri Canonici sicut Hieronymus alijque testantur because with the Iewes the canonicall bookes were receiued with this difference as Ierome and other writers witnesse He reiecteth Iob and some other bookes which are Canonicall by his owne reason namely because they were of that authoritie with the Iewes Amphilochius differeth not from the aboue named writer after that he hath set downe the same number which we doe excepting the booke of Wisdome which yet it may be but put in for verse because he reckneth but three of Salomon after I say he concludeth thus hic verissimus divinitus datarum est scripturarum Canon this is the most true Canon of the diuine scriptures Ruffinus in his exposition vpon the Creede saith that he will describe the Canonicall bookes of the olde testament which he doth after our order in England and acknowledgeth that non Canonicos libros legi voluerunt in ecclesiis sed non proferri ad authoritatem ex his fidei confirmandaÌ„ they wil haue the books that are not Canonicall to be read in Churches but not to be aleadged to confirme a matter of faith I will not produce the testimonies of Hierome Epiphanius Nazianzen Athanasius and others because they are obvious to euery one neither will I conuince the Doctour by his owne writers as Caietan Hugo and Arias Montanus Iosephus is worthie to be heard who plainly teacheth that duo solum viginti libri fide digni esse creduntur Euseb 3. lib. hist â—0 onely 22. bookes are to be credited By this cloud of witnesses I hope Christian Reader thou maist see the vanitie of Papists who doe nothing but crepare patres patres crie the fathers they are on their side I returne the Argument They which adde bookes to diuine scriptures draw the holy Bible to their fancies But the Papists adde whole bookes to diuine scriptures Ergo Where he saith that the Catholikes follow the bible I will not stand vpon that famous corruption of the Hebrew psalter by an English Papist to iustifie their vulgar latin text but come to one place out of which they would gather purgatorie Where it is said that a certaine sinne shall not be forgiuen neither in this world Math. 11. nor in the world to come we expound it by Marke who saith it shall neuer be forgiuen the Papist saith Matthew must not be expouÌ„ded by Marke because he is shorter but is he not plainer How absurd is it to expound these words â—ell lib. 1. de into cap. 4. he hath neuer forgiuenes to this sense whereas to expound the words of Matthew by Marke hath an excellent construction Thus euery man may see who draw the scriptures to their fancies whether Papists or Protestants The 9. reason Councells Whether the Church of God hath euer bin accustomed when any heresie did spring vp therein to gather a Councell of Bishops Prelates and other learned men I will not stand to dispute If your meaning be M. Doctour that nothing is heresie but that which is condemned by a Councell Lib. 4. cont dâ—â—s epist Pelag. in fine I vtterly renounce your vaine conceit Let Augustine
presence because the wordes were so plaine and why hath the text bin so tossed that out of it alone there hath bin wronge foure score different opinions I doubt you can hardly shewe so many opinions M. Doctor but graunt it yet a plaine text may not bee vnderstood of euery one and if the text be so plaine as you would haue it howe commeth it to passe that there are so many different opinions also among your selues for you know not howe to expound the word this as I haue prooued in an other worke Scotus confesseth that before the Lateran councell transubstantiation was no matter of faith ergo the wordes this is my body prooue it not Lactantius crieth out after this manner O quam difficilis est ignorantibus veritas quam facilis scientibus O how hard is truth to the ignorante but how easie to the skilfull truth then may be easie in it selfe though difficult to some men Vpon this vaine question you haue made a foolish inference that we haue noe witnesses at all of our newe inuented doctrine but euery one his priuat fancy or conceit whereas the catholike Roman religion hath all things in the world witnesses of it This is a monstrous fable are you able to prooue that all which are in heauen were the children of your church and all that are in hell were enemies vnto it to examine particulars Ignatius you say was of your religion because in Ecclesiasticall affaires he would not haue the king equall to the Bishop and because he wrotte Ecclesiasticall traditions To the first I answer that the true Ignatius would not correct Salomons speech Prou. 24. My sonne saith Salomon honour God and the king but I say honour God and the Bishop as high Priest the true Ignatius was a man of greater religion then that he would haue corrected the scripture but any thing is good inough to patch vp poperie To the second place I answer that it beeing duely considered ouerthroweth the Papists opinion For Ignatius thought it necessarie that the Traditions of the Apostles that is their doctrine should be written for feare of corruption what then is become of vnwritten traditions For that this is the true meaning of Eusebius Grynaeus sheweth Eus l. 5. c. 23. Next vnto Ignatius is Irenaeus placed who is so farre from agnizing the Papall authoritie that he did Acriter Victorem reprehendere sharpely reprooue Victor the Romane Bishop because he excommunicated the Churches of Asia for keeping the feast of Easter in a diuers manner from Rome Would Irenaeus haue done this if the Popes authoritie had beene vniuersall As foâ— Victor if this be your argument he excommunicated the Churches of Asia ergo he was a papist you make a ridiculous reason The next argument of Policarpus his going to Rome is of the same moment for who knoweth not that many mens aduise is vsed who yet haue no authoritie ouer others That Saint Cyprian Syxtus Laurence with infinite others doe witnesse the Romane religion I denie Saint Cyprian is so farre from witnessing all points of poperie that as I haue prooued he is reiected of Papists From men the Doctor commeth to women affirming thousands to haue defended their virginitie against deuils and men What then were they Papists therefore To come to speciallities Helen you say founde out the Crosse Although that historie may be doubted of yet Helen was no Papist for shee did not worshippe the crosse because that was an heathenish errour if shee had beene a Papist shee would haue adored the crosse But the Mother of Augustine Saint Monica was a papist who after death requested that shee might haue Masse said for her here if you meane popish Masse M. Doctor you abuse your selfe most shamefully for shee desired onely a memorie of her at the Communion So had the Prophets and Apostles which were not in your fained Purgatorie By these fewe examples you haue prooued Protestancie then poperie as for the rest which you name Saint Paul the Eremit and others when you prooue them Papists we will beleeue it To your question demanding whether there were any Saints in heaueÌ„ before this our age which were not papists I answer that there were therfore you speake impiously to say that heauen was emptie vntil Luther shooke off his hood or if there were any they were Papists who reuealed these things vnto you M. Doctor Take heede of the pride of Lucifer who would ascend into heauen to know secrets they belong not vnto you The Apostles and Martyrs with thousands I doubt not were in heauen which I am sure were no Papists witnesâ—e their writings From heauen the Doctor commeth to hell I feare me without repentance a fit place for him This iolly fellowe knoweth not onely matters in heauen but also what is done in hell as it seemeth The heathen persecutors are in hell for persecuting the Catholike Church I doubt not but this Catholike Church is not the same with the Romish Church at this day there is ample difference betwixt these And that Constantine gaue great peace to the Church Theod. lib. 1. c. 7. it is true also but he was no Papist for he saith that the holy Scriptures teach vs plainely all things which concerne diuine matters Lastly that all Bishops vnder the cope of heauen were members of this Romish Church is a notorious vntrueth The Doctor to fill vp his reason numbreth many but prooueth not that which he saith The rest of the chapter is but a vaine flourish of words in which I take no delight To drawe his reason into a syllogisme is needlesse because in deede it hath neither head nor foote Amongest many vanities in the ende of the chapter the Doctor saith that he is a Papist because the Romish religion is the most beneficiall of all the rest Christian Reader I feare me that this indeed is the true cause why many are papists namely their commodities But this is sufficient to driue men from poperie that in regard of preferment by this Doctors confession he is a Papist M. Doctor I haue taken away your euidence for poperie for baptisme bindeth no man to falshood Wherefore I beseech you by your saluation choose rather with Moses to suffer affliction then to be the Popes white sonne which as it seemeth by your owne confession you doe because the Romish Religion is most gainefull Out vpon gaine against conscience the Lord open your eies to see the trueth FINIS An admonition to the Reader I desire thee Christian Reader if there be any faults of the Printer to impute them to him not to the author of this booke for he could not be present at the Presse
first that Augustine speaketh of ancient miracles for he saith tenet me authoritas miraculis inchoata authoritie begunne by miracles doth hold me in Secondly I answer that Augustine doth preferre truth before miracles in the same place he confesseth that veritas est illis omnibus praeponenda truth is to be preferred before all those things Now I returne the argument They which haue true miracles are the true Church But the Protestants haue true miracles Ergo. For the proofe of the assumption we produce the Apostles miracles by which that doctrine which we maintaine was confirmed many hundred yeares agoe If our doctrine be not conteined in the scriptures let it be disprooued by the same But because the Doctour saith out of Augustine that he is bound in the Church by the bond of miracles I would it might please him a little to listen vnto S. Augustine writing thus de Vni eccle cap. 16. Non dicat ideò verum esse quia illa illa mirabilia fecit Donatus vel Pontius c. Let no man say it is true because Donatus or Pontius hath done these or these miracles or because men at the memorie of the dead doe pray and are heard or because these or these things doe happen there or because this our brother or that our sister saw such a vision waking or dreamed such or such a vision sleeping In in the same cap. Augustine speaketh thus quaecunque talia such things whatsoeuer are to be approoued because they are done in the Catholike Church yet it is not made knowne by them Belsee his reports of Luther and Calvin we reiect and touching our Gospel it is not altogether without miracles in these daies your Idols are fallen quisquis adhuc prodigia vt credat inquirit The world beleeuing whosoeuer seeketh for wonders that he might beleeue is himselfe a wonder Take heede therefore M. Doctour least you make your selfe a miracle that will not beleeue without miracles The 7. reason visions and the gift of prophesie Cytharaedus ridiculus chorda qui semper oberrat eadem This Doctour harpeth alwaies vpon one string he is not contented with Miracles but now he commeth to Visions and confidently affirmeth that visions and the gift of prophesie were neuer found to be but in the true Church yet Aquinas in his 2. 2. 172. quest art 6. teacheth that prophetae daemonum aliquando verum praedicant the deuills prophets sometimes foretell the truth yea he auoucheth that propheta daemonum non semper loquuntur ex revelatione daemonum sed interdum ex inspiratione divina that the deuills prophets did not alwaies speake by reuelation from the deuill but sometime by inspiration from God and this he prooueth by Balaam his example vnto whome the Lord spake as it is in the 22. of Numb The Sybilles as the Doctour himselfe confesseth prophesied for the confirmation of right religion yet were they Ethnicks and liued amongst them Who dare say that the Church were with the heathen because of the Sybilles But I draw this argument into a syllogisme They which haue visions and the gift of prophesie are the Church But the Papists haue visions and the gift of prophesie Ergo. Aquinas as you haue heard M. Doctour denieth your proposition and whereas you would prooue the same because S. Paul S. Peter and S. Iohn stand vpon Reuelations behold now your double follie First you thus conclude the Church had visions therefore it onely hath visions which is as good as if a man should conclude the Church teacheth the Trinitie ergo no heretikes teach the same Secondly the Church had visions therefore it shall alwaies haue visions who will graunt you this consequence S. Augustine saith 3. booke de bap cap. 10. that miracles were ad ecclesiae primordia dilatanda to enlarge the beginnings of the Church so were visions to last for a time I returne the argument They which haue visions and the gift of prophesie are the true Church But the Protestants haue visions Ergo they are the true Church The Assumption is prooued by S. Pauls Saint Peters and Saint Iohns visions our doctrine is the same with theirs Saint Iohn heard a voice from heauen saying Blessed are the dead for they rest from their labours so say we therfore there is no purgatorie paines for them after this life The Scriptures teach that the sufferings of Christ are a perfect and full satisfaction for our sinnes so say we and therefore there remaineth not any part of Gods iustice to be satisfied by vs. But let vs see what visions the Papists haue and what a dangerous thing it is to stand vpon visions Bellarmine in his 2. booke of purgatorie and 7. chap. alleadgeth a vision out of Beda to prooue besides hell purgatorie and heauen a fourth place namely pratum florentissimum dilucidissimum as it were a most goodly meadow And in the same booke and 4. chap. he sheweth that Dyonisius the Carthusian and Michael Baius by visions would prooue that the soules in purgatorie were not certen of their saluation which opinion he confuteth Thus you see out of your owne writers what credit is to be giuen to visions by such counterfaiting meanes we may prooue any thing I say therefore with Augustine Removeantur ista vel figmenta mendacium hominum vel portenta fallacium spirituum Away with these fained things of lying men or monsters of lying spirits And now M. Doctour to argue vpon your owne graunts both of miracles and visions You say that the heathen had prophesies to confirme right religion graunt you then that you haue some few which works both true miracles and see true visions it is not to confirme your erroneous doctrine but to confirme that truth of doctrine which is held in your Church for all them you are a corrupt Church yet there are some reliques of true doctrine remaining and so by sequele of your owne speech these things may come to passe to confirme that true doctrine which is amōgst you Heretikes haue held some true opinions that there heresies might be the better bolstered out You hold the Trinitie and some other points of religion it may be then that if there be any miracles or visions amongst you it is to confirme the reliques of that truth which remaineth with you Thus I haue argued vpon your owne wordes and graunt But for my part I hold with Chrysostome 49. hom in op◠imper that nunc nulla probatio esse potest vorae ecclesiae there can be now no proofe of the true Church but onely by the Scriptures He giueth a reason of his speach quia saith he qua propria sunt in veritate ca hareses habent in schismate habent ecclesias habent scripturas diuinas habent Episcopos caeterosque ordines clericorum habent baptismum habent Eucharistiam caeteraque omnia because those things which are peculiar to truth heresies haue in their schisme they haue Churches they haue Scriptures they haue Bishoppes
things but in scoffing manner if you doe seriously hold them prooue them seriously and not with ridiculous authorities The 11. reason Triall of truth That it appertaineth to the Church to trie and to discerne Spirits as also to determine and to decide doubts we confesse M. D. Trie all things saith Paul 1 Thess 5. 1. Ioh. 4. and S. Iohn commandeth vs to prooue the Spirits But the question is whether you are the Church or no Quid ergo facturi sumus what shall we doe I answer with Augustine propounding this question cap. 2. de vnitat that we must seeke the Church of Christ in his word qui veritas est optimè novit corpus suum who is truth best knoweth his bodie Where you say that we cannot otherwise but receiue the scriptures vpon the catholike Romane churches credit and also three Creedes and some articles of beleefe as the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne and many tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments I will answer these points seuerally And first I desire to know what reason you haue to make a particular church as the Romane church Catholike The Romane church if it were a true church is but a part of the catholike church It is Catholike saith Augustine because it is per totum through the whole world de vnit cap. 5. Cyril in his 18. chap. among many reasons of the name giueth this Quia per vniversum sit orbem terrarum diffusa because it is diffused thorough the whole world Is it all one to say I beleeue the Catholike Church and to say I beleeue the Romane church To leaue this matter and to come to your speech that it is not possible to know the Bible which is vsed amongst Christians to be the true word of God indeede but vpon the Romane churches credit First such idle questions the olde heretikes the Manichees demanded of S. Augustine to whome S. Augustine answered Lib. 32. cap 21. cont Faust Man Si quaeratis à nobis vnde nos sciamus Apostolorum esse istas literas breuiter vobis respondemus inde nos scire vnde vos scitis illas literas esse Manichaei If you demand of vs how we know that these be the Apostles writings we shape you this short answer as you know that your writings are of the heretike Manichee Secondly I would know how you can prooue any church to be the church but by the Scriptures if you cannot prooue the church but by the Scriptures then the Authoritie of the church dependeth vpon them and not è contra Thirdly we receiue not the Scriptures vpon the Romane churches credit for then we should haue receiued also the bookes which are Apocrypha as well as the true Canon of the bible for the Romane church doth receiue them Fourthly we receiue the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselues Many men by the heauenly maiestie of the Scriptures are mooued to receiue them before they know which is the true church Gonarus con Cost Iustin Martyr saith that Christs words haue in thâ—â— feare to perswade in dialogo cum Try Mantuan de pat l. 3. c. 2. saith thus Firmiter scripturas ideo credimus quòd diuinam inspirationem intra accipimus we steadfastly beleeue the scriptures because we haue receiued an inward inspiration from God He that will despise the Scriptures will despise the Church He that will not beleeue there is a God because the Scriptures teach it will not beleeue it because the Church teacheth the same The Scriptures were credited before the Romane church was ens or in rerum natura The Apostles beleeued the Gospel of our Sauiour Christ before he wrought any miracle because it was testified by the scriptures Ioh. 1.46 Adam and others beleeued without the church Our Sauiour Christ preached Repent and beleeue the Gospel which some did without the Church Eusebius in his third booke and 21. chap. writeth that the Gospels of Thomas and others were reiected because that phraseos character à consuetudine Apostolica variat ipsa sententia propositum eorum quae in illis adferuntur plurimum à veritate rectae doctrinae discrepant the style doth varie from the Apostolicall manner and the matter and the intent of those things which are alleadged in them doe much differ from the truth of right doctrine The consent of Scriptures the miracles and prophesies with many other arguments draw a man to credit the same yea the deadly hatred which the world beareth vnto them perswadeth not a little Sacris Scripturis saith Bellarmine nihil est notius Lib. 1. cap. 2. de vâ—â— Dâ—i nihil certius there is nothing more knowne and certaine then the Scriptures Read Bellarmine your selfe M. Doctor that he may satisfie you in this point But if we beleeue the Scriptures by the Church doth not the church teach vs to beleeue by the scriptures how can the church rightly perswade vs to beleeue but by preaching and producing of scriptures Ergo the scriptures are of much more force then the bare name of a church For propter quod vnumquodque tale est illud magis tale if the church induceth vs to beleeue then the scriptures doe much more because the church doth it by the scriptures The church is an excellent meanes ordained of God to bring men to beleefe neither doe we contemne the authoritie thereof The Samaritans beleeued by the testimonie of a woman Ioâ— 4. but afterward they beleeued because of Christ himselfe so the Church may bring one to beleeue but afterward to beleeue for the word it selfe The testimonie of Augustine is fraudulently alleadged by you his word is commoveret for he saith As there were many things which held him in the faith so if he were an infidel he would not beleeue the Gospel vnlesse the authoritie of the church with other things did mooue him ergo not onely the church and he speaketh if he were an infidell as the wordes going before doe plainly manifest Si invenies aliquem if thou shouldest finde any which yet doth not beleeue the Gospel what wouldest thou doe saying to thee I doe not beleeue then immediatly followeth your sentence I would not beleeue vnlesse c. Nicholaus Clenangis is worthie to be heard concerning this testimonie of Augustine Disp super Gâ—â— con Mirum sane prima specie satis videtur at the first fight it is maruell that he should preferre the authoritie of the church being a stranger in the earth before the authoritie of the Gospel seeing the Church may be deceiued in many things and the Gospel cannot Afterward he giueth the reason of Augustines speach because the Manichees did reiect Scriptures at their pleasures To stand yet somewhat longer in this testimonie Con. lib. 5 c. 1â— Augustine was mooued to beleeue by Ambrose is Ambrose his authoritie therefore equall to the scriptures God forbid whosoeuer listeth to read the 5. chap of the 6.
booke of his Confessions shall finde that he did beleeue the Scriptures for themselues In his 14. chap. of the booke cited by the Doctor he writeth thus Quid putas faciendum nisi vt eos relinquamus qui nos invitant certa cognoscere postea imperant vt incerta credamus eos sequamur qui nos invitant prius credere quod nondum valemus intueri vt ipsa side valentiore facti quod credimus intelligere mereamur non iam hominibus sed ipso Deo intrinsecus mentem nostram firmante atque illuminante what haue we to doe but to forsake them that inuite vs to know certaine things and afterwards command vs to beleeue vncertaine things and to follow thē which inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to behold that beeing made stronger through faith we may attaine to vnderstand that we beleeue now not men but God himselfe confirming and lightning our minde inwardly The spirit of God therefore must cause vs to beleeue otherwise we shall wauer and stagger To conclude this point many borne in heresie and schisme haue bin mooued by heretikes to beleeue the Scriptures is heresie therfore equal to the scriptures nothing lesse The three Creedes we receiue because the doctrine is contained in the scriptures but you doe not receiue Athanasius his Creede for he maketh but two places vitam aeternam ignem aeternum Omnes homines resurgent cum corporibus suis reddituri sunt de factis preprijs rationem qui benè egerunt ibunt in vitam aeternam qui verò malè in ignem aeternum All men shall rise with their owne bodies and shall giue an account of their deedes and they which haue done well shall goe into life euerlasting they which haue done euill into euerlasting fire You teach that Infants vnbaptized shall be in a brimme of hell and not in the fire of hell Thus if you had bin wise M. Doctor you would haue bin silent concerning these Creeds If I should shew your contrarieties to the Apostles creed I should be ouerlong That the holy Ghost doth proceede from the Father and the Sonne Lib. 2. de Christ cap. 22. Bellarmine prooueth plentifully out of the Scriptures What an ignorant Doctor is this that cannot see this mysterie prooued in holy Scripture Touching the tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments what if they be not in Scriptures the heauenly doctrine signified by the words is contained in scriptures If these wordes were necessarie to saluation then men were damned before they were inuented which I thinke the Doctor will not grant for many beleeued the things although the names were not extant Augustine calleth the bookes of Tobie and other Canonical because they were read to edification for I hope you will not oppose his authoritie to so many Fathers as I haue before produced In the place by you cited he will haue those books which are receiued of all Churches preferred before those which some Churches receiue not hence it is manifest that he maketh not all of equall authoritie Lib. 2 con gaud cap. 23. Elswhere he will haue the bookes of Machabees read so it be non inutiliter sobriè not vnprofitably and soberly Why doth he giue this caution to these bookes if they were of like authoritie And in his booke de praed Sanct. c. 14. he confesseth when he did produce a testimonie out of the booke of Wisdome that the brethren did reiect it there he contendeth not much for it If it had bin Canonicall he should not haue so remissely pleaded for it Thus it appeareth why he calleth these books canonical Where you say that no heretike can charge the Church with adding or diminishing one iot from the Scriptures we must admire Gods prouidence and his loue towards his church he preserueth the Scriptures though men would take thē out of the world But if you meane that the church of Rome hath not altered the holy Scriptures you must know that the Papists hold the Hebrew and the Greeke text to be corrupt and haue established a Latin translation differing farre from the Hebrew and Greeke and is not this to alter the scriptures If I should shew the corruptions of that trāslation I should be very tedious I will name one in the 1. of the Hebr. it is said Christ hath purged our sinnes by himselfe these words by himselfe are cleane stricken out of their Rhemists translation what an intollerable corruption is this But I will conclude the matter in a syllogisme They which establish a corrupt translation alter the scriptures or at least a iot of the same But the Papist establish a corrupt translation Ergo. And indeede I cannot sufficiently wonder at them who establish their Latine translation eo nomine because it is Hieroms and yet will not allow his translations of the Psalmes what dealing with the Scriptures is this he hath corrected that translation of the Psalmes which they vse and yet they haue defied it You further demand why we should trust the Church of Rome rather in this then in other things I answer first that as I haue prooued we trust not the Church of Rome but the scriptures themselues secondly it is a ridiculous consequent We beleeue the church of Rome in this point ergo we must doe so in all other To make your follie manifest vnto you selfe M. D. you beleeue the church of England in some points will you doe so in all I would it were so That we haue had nothing to doe with the Bible for a thousand yeares and that we haue robbed the Church of many bookes are detestable vntruths But I pray you Syr were not the scriptures preserued in the Greeke church as well as in the Romish church did not the Iewes keepe the scriptures and yet to vse your phrase our Sauiour wrested thē out of their hands not as iust but as vniust possessours of them The Pharisies might haue vsed the same speech to our Sauiour Christ that the Doctor doth to vs. He hath three other questions in this chapter The first is how we relying onely vpon scripture can shew certainly which bookes be scripture and which not This question I haue at large answered in this chapter and therefore I will not repeat my answer Secondly he would know of the vnlearned Protestant how he knoweth the translations to be true I answer that it is not necessarie to know euery thing to be truly translated The spirit of God speaking in the scriptures certifieth the conscience of the vnlearned that the scriptures in the English tongue are the scriptures The third question it why we beleeue our owne iudgements rather the Luthers or Calvins I answer we beleeue their iudgements that bring best proofes out of Scriptures But M. Doctor because you haue posed vs with so many questions now I will pose you with one likewise Why doe you receiue your latin translation rather vpon this Popes authoritie
then vpon that Popes authoritie Pope Sixtus saith â—ead M. Iames. before the Vatican edition their vulgar latin translation was schismatis occasio the occasion of heresie Now Pope Clements edition is approoued farre differing from Sixtus edition What certaintie then haue Papists who will take the scriptures now vpon this now vpon that Popes warrant But I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which haue no certaine triall of truth are not the Church But the Protestants haue no certaine triall Ergo. I denie the assumption for we haue the scriptures which are the infallible rule of truth Our Sauiour Christ vanquished the deuill by the scriptures The Bereans tried the Apostles doctrine by the scriptures Lib. 2. denupt cap. â—â— and may not we so doe S. Augustine writeth thus Ista controuersia iudicem riquirit this controuersie requireth a iudge who shall be iudge he answereth Christ Iudicet Christus let Christ be iudge He doth name neither Pope nor Romish church For as he saith in another place Scriptura est eminentissima authoritatis 〈◊〉 Civit. l. 11. c. 3. the scriptures are of a most soueraigne and peerelesse authoritie Lib. 5. Optatus disputing whether the baptized are to be rebaptized is worthie to be heard Quarendi sunt saith he aliqui huius controuersiae indices si Christiani de viraque parte dari non possunt quia stuaijs veritas impeditur de foris quarendus est index si l'agaâ—â—â— non potest nosse Christiana secreta si Iudans inimiens est Christiani baptismatis ergo in terris haec de re nullum poterit reperiri iudicium de coelo quaerendus sed vt quid puâ—samus ad coelum cum habemus hîc in Euangelio testamentum inquam quia hoc loco recte possunt terrena coelestibus comparari Some iudges for this controuersie are to be fought for if Christians they cannot be had on both sides because by part-taking the truth is hindred we must seek abroad for a iudge if he be a Pagan he knoweth not Christian secrets if a Iewe he is an enemie to Christian baptisme in earth there can be found no iudgement a iudge from heauen must be required But why doe we knocke at heauen when we haue in the Gospel a testament because in this place earthly things may be fitly coÌ„pared to heauenly things I maruell M. Doctor that your vanting vpon all the Fathers light not vpon this Father who is as you call them a plaine Calvinist But I returne your argument They which haue no certaine triall of the truth are not the Church But the Papist haue no certaine triall of the truth Ergo. The assumption is manifest because they relie vpon Popes that may erre Marellinus sacrificed to idols Liberius was an Arrian And more then this some Iudas might creepe into the office as your Rhemists confesse Some Popes they will not appeale to Councells as it it manifest by the Councell of Basil And M. Doctor in a word what certaintie haue you or can you haue if there happen to be a schisme amongst the Popes The 22. schisme continued 40. yeares as it is recorded in Fascic Temp. and vntill Martin the 5. it was not manifest who was Pope You blaspheme the Scriptures Turrian calleth them a Delphian sword made for want The Censure of Colen saith that it is veluti nasus caereus a nose of waxe O Antichristian Prelates the Lord rebuke you for these your blasphemies against his holy Bible What triall of truth you haue I hope I haue made plaine to your owne conscience M. Doctor In the ende of this chapter you call vs boat-swanes admitting no iudge and say we haue no meanes to rest vntill we end in Atheisme That this name of boat-swanes may returne vpon your head I pray you consider how M. Harding pleadeth for your Pope to be head of the church because the Prophet Hose prophesieth that the children of Israel and Iudah shall haue one head Out vpon you Antichristian heretikes that euer you should thus abuse the holy Bible touching Atheisme wheÌ„ce did Machiauell spring Caius constantly auoucheth Italie to be the very fouÌ„taine of Atheists I conclude this reason with the saying of Picus Mirandula Magna profecto insania est Euangelio non credere cuius veritatem sanguis martyrum clamat Apostolicae resonant voces prodigia probant ratio confirmat mundus testatur elemeÌ„ta loquuÌ„tur Daemones confitentur sed longe maior insania si de Euangelij veritate non dubitas viuere tamen quasi de eius falsitate non dubitares It is exceeding madnesse not to credit the Gospel the truth whereof the blood of Martyrs doth crie the Apostolicall words doe sound miracles do prooue reason doth confirme the world doeth witnesse the elements doe vtter the deuils confesse but it is farre greater folly if thou doubtest not of the trueth of the Gospell so to liue as if thou madest no question but it were false The twelfth reason the vse and custome of the Church De faece hauris you drawe of your dregges M. Doctor when you will beate vs downe with the bare club of custome Custome in ciuill affaires may preuaile much but in diuinity it is not worth a rush except it be ioyned with trueth Prudentius answereth Symmachus making this defence Suus cuique mos suus cuique ritus est Euery one hath his manner and rite Quid mihi tu ritus solitos Romane senator obiectas cum scita patrum populique frequenter in tabulis placiti sententia flexa nouarit Nunc etiam quoties solitis decedere prodest praeteritosque habitus cultu damnare recenti Why doest thou obiect vnto me Custome when a diuers opinion hath changed the decrees of Father and people now also how often doeth it auaile to depart from custome and by a newe manner to condemne the olde habits Morosa moris retentio res est aequè turbulenta ac nouitas A wayward retaining of a Custome is as turbulent a thing as noueltie Balsamon vpon Photius saith that aequitate exigente mutamus consuctudinem Tom. 6. when equitie requireth it we change custome And againe Vidi non scriptam consuetudinem fuisse infirmatam I haue seene an vnwritten custome to haue beene infringed But saith the Doctor the vse and custome of the church hath beene alwaies an infallible rule to direct and order things by First the Doctor beggeth that which is a question taking the Romish Church to be the true Church We denie it prooue it before you plead custome Secondly the Church in times past did giue the Eucharist vnto Infants was this an infallible rule M. Doctor to giue the Sacrament of the bodie and blood of Christ vnto children if you denie that the Church did so you may be confounded with infinite testimonies of authors Augustine in his first booke de peccato mort cap. 20. is plaine vpon which place Erasmus hath made this marginall note Lib. 1. cap. 2. cont Iulian. Nunc
euery lawe doeth not binde Conscience but those which are diuine beeing immutable And this doctrine is taught by your man Gerson as witnesseth Bellarmine There are no men that haue giuen greater obedience to magistrates then Protestāts as the world can testifie The Papists bring the Magistrates into contempt The Emperour must lead the Popes horse Coster glorieth that Pipin king of Fraunce 43. p. doing reuerence to the Pope did lead the Popes horse if Emperours must lead the Popes horse and kisse his toe who bring Magistrates to contempt the Pope or the protestants Henrie the fourth bare-footed fasting from morning to night waited for the Popes sentence three daies If this be not to contemne Magistrates I knowe not what is In the booke of ceremonies the Emperour is appointed wonderfull seruilitie but I leaue this contempt of Magistrates and come to veniall sinnes and concupiscence A man may wonder that we should be charged with vnholy doctrine because we teach euery sinne to deserue damnation The greater the sinne is the more men should abstaine from it therefore on the contrarie the lesser it is the lesse regard is had of it By our doctrine then mē regard sinne more then by the Papists doctrine because we teach no sinne to be small iudge therefore indifferent reader which is most holy doctrine Hierom saith Nescio an leue aliquod peccatum ad Co. I knowe not whether we may tearme any sinne small which is cōmitted against God or no. But the Papists care not to call sinnes veniall and small though committed against an infinite God To enlarge this doctrine a litle their owne men namely Gerson and the bishop of Rochester teach as we teach Bellarmine vseth strōg reasons against this wicked doctrine Bellar. l. 1. de amist gra c. 1. No punishment is so euill as any sinne can be Ergo no sinne is veniall A man must rather be annihilated then he must commit any sinne how then can sinne be veniall of it owne nature Thus your owne schoole resolueth against your doctrine The scripture is plaine Cursed is euery one that continueth not in all things that are written in the booke of the lawe to doe them 3. Gala. If man be accursed for euery sinne then euery sinne deserues death but man is accursed for euery sinne Ergo Augustine writeth excellent well of this point Leuia multa faciunt vnum graue Tract 1. in epist Ioh. multae guttae implent flumen multa grana faciunt massam Many small sinnes make one great and many drops make a flood many cornes make a heape Take head therefore M. Doctor of your small sinnes least admitting them you haue a masse of corruption Theodorus Abucara speaketh as plainely as any Protestant In lib. Pa. Peccati nullus expers est nisi Christus Dominus I am vero omne peccatum vel tantillum mortem infert No man excepting Christ our Lord is without sinne Nowe the least sinne deserueth death Touching concupiscence we teach with the Apostle that it is sinne and by this doctrine men must of necessitie be mooued to striue more against it then if it were no sinne Howe say you M. Doctor wil you not striue more against that thing which is sinne then against that which is no sinne if you will not the greater is your shame and your conscience is the more dissolute Concerning the reward of good and bad life in the world to come we teach it with you but yet we denie the merit of eternall life Opera sunt via regni non causa regnandi saith Bernard Good workes are the way to the kingdome of heauen de lib. arb they are not the cause of it Tota spes mea saith Augustine est in morte Domini mei mors eius meritum meum in anual 22. refugium meum My whole hope is onely in the death of my Lord his death is my merit and refuge And againe Meritum meum miseratio Domini My desert is the Lords mercie Besides these authorities M. Doctor if reasons will satisfie you why we denie merits take these Whosoeuer meriteth must perfectly fulfil the lawe but no mā in this life can perfectly fulfill the lawe ergo no man can merit Secondly where there is merit there is no mercie for gratia non est vllo modo gratia nisi sit omni modo gratuita Grace is not grace except it be euery way free but the reward is of mercie Ergo. Thirdly where there is merit there may be confidence in merits but no man must put his confidence but in God Ergo. To this syllogisme I will annexe Augustines speech Lib. de pec mo◠14 cap. Quisquis ergo ausus fuerit dicere iustifico te consequens est vt dicat etiam crede in me quod nemo sanctorum recte dicere potest Whosoeuer can say I iustifie thee may by consequent say beleeue in me which none of the Saints can rightly say If then we iustifie our selues we may beleeue in our selues which speech all Christians doe abhorre Fourthly where there is merit there the reward is due by iustice to the worke but by iustice it is not due saue onely in respect of Gods promise ergo If you will see the assumption prooued read Aquinas 1. 2. 114. quaest where he saith that Deus est debitor sibi non nobis God is debter to himselfe and not to vs. Read also Bernard de lib. arb and heare Augustine writing thus Debitor factus est he is made a debter by promising Now to produce your owne men as Scotus and diuers others I hold it needlesse yet let the Catechisme of Colon speake Quis tam stupidus est c. Who is so sottish as to thinke our good workes to be worthy of eternall life Thus merits are reiected by reason and by sundrie authorities therefore he slaundereth vs in saying that we giue the people occasion to be negligent in doing of good and little or nothing fearfull to euill Nowe we are come to auricular confession The Catholike Romane religion teacheth confession to a priest of all deadly sinnes which we can remember vnder paine of damnation which restraineth the people from sinne and causeth them particularly to be well instructed and counselled But the Protestant taking that away setteth open a dore to all wickednes and loosenes of life as also to ignorance To answer this latter speech first no man can be ignorant that shutteth not his eyes how we condemne loosenes of life and how we crie for knowledge We desire and beseech the people to read the bible we catechize and instruct them we examine them also before the communion doe we then open a dore to ignorance Some Papists haue said that ignorance is the mother of deuotion and I am sure that knowledge aboundeth now more then euer it did in Poperie As for auricular confession Iuel 27. ait we say it is neither commanded by Christ nor necessarie to saluation The Papists
he chargeth vs with the same crime because we teach euery sinne to deserue eternall damnation which doctrine his owne men haue taught as I haue prooued These doctrines might haue serued to haue returned this vntruth vpon his head but let vs further see into their doctrine It is not lawfull for the faithfull to marrie with infidells for Paul saith 1. Cor. 6. be not yoked with infidells yet the Pope may dispence in this point Bellar. lib. 1. de Mat. cap. 23. who gaue the Pope leaue thus to play with Gods word Secondly God forbiddeth diuerse degrees of kindred yet the Pope despenseth with them if Gods word bee holy the Popes doctrine is prophane and sheweth him to be Antichrist sitting in the Temple as God Thirdly subdeacons may not marry yet the Pope dispensed with them Greg. lib. 1. Epist Cap. 42. Fourthly God commandeth the children to honour Parents but the papists teach that they may enter into the state of Monkes and Nunnes without the parents consent Bellar. lib. 2. de me 36 cap. Fiftly the Pope should honour the magistrate as beeing his father but the Emperour kisseth is toe Sixtly the Papistes allowe stewes and one calleth them a nenessarie euill God saith Deut. 23.27 There shall be not whore of the daughters of Israel Seauenthly the Papists teach that the Seriptures are not to be read of all men a doctrine tending to ignorance and prophane life Eightly the Papists say that the passions of Saints are ioyned to Christs passion to make vp the treasure of the Church a most blasphemous doctrine against Christs sufferings which are of infinit valour Bell. lib. de Indulg Ninthly the Papists teach that Saints may be called our redeemers after a certaine respect though not simply Bellarm. eodem lib. if there were nothing but this one thing in Poperie a man should euer detest the same Tenthly the Papists teach that it is better to commit fornication then to marrie after a vow as I prooued which is most filthie and odious doctrine 11. The Papists teach that in this life and after death the Pope may giue pardons which is a most dissolute doctrine as is the doctrine of purgatorie Giue good store of gold and siluer and thou shalt haue pardon alas what will not a man giue for the redemption of his soule 12. The Papists teach that some sinnes deserue not death of their own nature which maketh men to commit these smal sinnes whereas the greatnes of sinne terrifieth men from it Thus M. Doctor behold your holy doctrine and now I returne your speach if the Papists doctrine open the right way to heauen then is the way to heauen most pleasant and delightfull to flesh and blood and consequently most easie to be walked The 14. reason Negatiue Doctrine Although this reason with the rest following hath no substance but many vaine words yet I will examine it with the others that followe Pope Boniface robbed the Church and â—â—ed to Ierusalem Fas. Tmp. pag. 70. Albertus robbed the Church by Papall authority â—â—n 90â— Whether Tarltons father spoiled the Church as the Doctor reporteth I am ignorant but if you thus dispute M. Doctor Tarletons father solde the lead off the parish Church Ergo the religion in England is a false religion Tarleton himselfe I am sure had more wit then you you are beholding to his father for this fact for otherwise as it seemeth you had wanted matter to fill vp your chapter as for the destroying of Abbeis Monasteries Nunries Chauntries Altars you might admire the iust iudgment of God vpon such places which beeing abused to Idolatrie and to filthie lust whordome and Sodomie are changed to other vses your owne prelates also in king Henrie his daies committed Abbey lands to the Princes disposition And if you thinke it carnall libertie to possesse any such Church goods you may doe well to perswade a number of your fauorites to renounce the possession of their Abbey lands and to restore them to the Church If you refuse so to doe I will say no more you are libertines your selues by your own verdict Who first annexed parsonages to abbeyes but Papists and this thing hath not a little maimed Gods Church Who first exacted first fruits but the couetous Pope read M. Doctor Fasciculum rerum expetendarum what orations are there against them If your Abbeyes be spoiled blame your selues for Iulian the Cardinall writing to Eugenius saith iusto Dei Iudicio fiet quòd quia nolumus dimittere Concilium fieri perdemus temporalitatem nostram vtinaus non corpora animas By the iust iudgement of God it shall come to passe because we will not suffer a Councell that we shall leese our temporalities and I would to god we might not leese our bodies and soules Touching first fruits saith the Author of the oration against them that exorbitanter factum fuerat contra ius iustitiam in oppressionem praelaturarum ecclesiarumque manasteriorum beneficiorum etiam personarum quibus contigerat It was exorbitantly done against right and equitie to the oppression of Praelacies Churches Monasteries Benefices and also the persons to whome it happened If some Lutherane as you call them had thus written you might haue discredited it but now you haue no cause so to doe No maruaile then if others followed the Popes example If these testimonies will not suffice call to minde the popes confession namely Adrians that Omne malum à Curia Romana processit All wickednesse proceeded from the Romane Court. Thus you haue gained little by this your preface to negatiue doctrine I might answer this reason onely with the like namely that the Papists standeth vpon meere negatiues as these I denie Christ to be the onely king Priest and Prophet of his Church I denie that onely God is to be called vpon I denie the Scriptures to containe sufficient doctrine vnto saluation I denie we are saued onely by Christ thus I might proceede and shew that your religion standeth vpon destructiues But I will giue you arguments for the opinions which we hold And to beginne with Baptisme with which you likewise beginne you hold it to be simply necessarie vnto saluation we denie it affirming that Gods grace is not tied to the Sacraments but that he may dispense it as it pleaseth him The theefe vpon the crosse was saued without baptisme ergo it is not simply necessarie Valentinian died without baptisme as Ambrose reporteth and yet he doubted not of his saluation And if it be necessarie simply vnto saluation it is by this place in the 3. of Iohn No man can enter into the kingdome of heauen except he be borne of water and of the spirit but this place doth not prooue a simple necessitie for Bellarmine teacheth that baptisme was not necessarie simply before the passion of Christ therefore this place prooueth it not We say therefore with Bernard Non carere baptisme seà contemnere capitale est epist 77. not the